inherent sexist assumptions in Neo-Paganism

[Xois]

Isn't focusing on the archetypal "live giving" "earth-mother" "eternal sacrificer" the same engendered stereotypes that have existed for centuries...

Sure there is a celebration, an acceptance and a worship of these aspects, but it still relegates women to creature of their body--the womb the place of creation, the vagina, the exit / enterance of life, the breast, the fount of nourishment...

Help me out, guys, I am really having trouble reconciling this--

Or is this the "first step", rebelling against the mysogny and it will eventually be replaced with a more wholistic understanding...

[Myst]

Ok, not sure I fully understand what you mean.

Neopagans as a whole don't all practice total balance - ie. you have your Dianics, etc.

Personal preference, IMHO. The people who give more reverence to one over the other may have their own reasons for doing so - ie. some believe by doing so they rebalance a society that has been patriarchal for so long. No one said you had to worship both to be Pagan.

Some see the God as He who gives and is energy, and the Goddess as She who shapes it. Some see her as earth mother, and him sun father, but together they are both needed to sustain life (we wouldn't have much life without sunlight would we?).

Perhaps it would be better for someone who leans more one way to answer this. Personally I see both as equal, even tho I respect those who feel differently. Someone?

[Swanspirit]

First of all..... I dont see where neo-paganism describes or even attributes the qualities of "all sacrificing" to any female deity. Perhaps all enduring to Gaia Concept, but not enduring as in sacrificing or allowing humanity to live if we continue to abuse the mother .
Second but even more important , it restores a feminine concept along with the "royal couple" concept to deity , which is a very large move away from woman as "beseeching a male deity for divine consideration power etc etc ...... which is no longer necessary because SHE now contains all those elements and more within :>
Nice discussion ......... thanks, maybe sometime we can elaborate on old "christian dichotomy "concepts carried over into neo-paganism :>
And I think the "rebelling againt "Paulism" which is a common term in some neo-pagan circles ....these day for some modern christian mysogynistic practices , since it is closer- to what PAUL changed Christianity into........(sorry just cant bring my self to call him Saint)is more or less changing the paradigm rather than rebelling , but I can see where the rebelling is needed as well.


Love and Light
Swannie

[Xois]

Yes I understand that...but STILL

But focusing on the female body, isnt it the same trap?

I am not concerned with balance...merely the conception of the female divine princple...

Even the triple goddess is about body...maiden mother, crone...

maiden--leading up to reproduction
mother--producer
crone--post-production...

Why is this?

Actually, to glorify motherhood is to embrace (to some degree) the idea of the sacrificial female...

So if i choose not to mother, I am missing the middle aspect of the goddess?

Willowraven

Even in the aspects you descirbed, the female principle is relagated...

[Swanspirit]

and I agree outwardly and that DOES count, it appears as if once again we are focused on the Body.....BUT the difference as I see it is that in neo-paganism we are dealing with the concept of matter inseparably INFUSED WITH spirit ....rather than body down here .. spirit UP THERE or over there and BETTER .
Even the oft quited ... we are "spiritual beings having a human experience" gives me the twinges LOL, because of the inherent implication that the body is less than spirit. But the feminine as DIVINE MAIDEN MOTHER CRONE.... divine in all her aspects and not "sinful evil or bearing temptation " is a much to be preferred concept, and to me elevates the human functions once more to being intimatley connected and INSEPARABLE from the divine.
And the function of the female as Maiden and goddess is the divine as female OTHER than having a human procreative function..... holder of conception ( the grail, where conception takes place inside the womb ) and grower of new life, instead of simply bearing an HEIR for a MAN is a full participant in DIVINE creation, and CRONE ... Goddess of WISDOM ..... whose function surpasses that of reproduction and is the keeper of ancient wisdom ...., once again beyond childbearing ,,, and still Divine..
Even women who never bear children in the physical sense.... are mothers of all children in the cosmic sense that they participate in the "community .. tribe .. village ... etc and creat the mental emotional and physical and spiritual environement that all children will have as heritage.
Just some of my perceptions
:>
HUGS
Swannie

[Xois]

But I am still reduced to "body"
Reduced to "other"

Idon't think I want to be a creature of my body

What is the triple aspect of the male divinity...

[Myst]

Depends. Could be sun king, oak king, holly king. Could be green man, sun god, dark lord.

According to you what I described highlights Goddess even still, to me it does not. Then again I concentrate on the fertility and bounty of the God as well.

The Maiden, Mother, and Crone, are times of life. If you choose to see them in terms of "body" that's your prerogative. To me I am now on the verge of Mother even tho I have no child. Even if I never have a child. It is a stage of life, knowledge, wisdom, and power rather then age to me. For example, my best friend who is 22 has been Mother for years, even though another best friend who is 26 to me has just started her Motherhood.

[Xois]

Willow...but note, the forms of the God that you describe have nothing to do with his body....

I am not tyring to start an arguement...I am trying to udnerstand...

[Kaylara]

I have seen the states of a males' life also described as Child, Father, and Elder.

Kaylara

[Myst]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
Depends. Could be sun king, oak king, holly king. Could be green man, sun god, dark lord.

Green man is the youngest, the boy, full of mischief and often found running through the forest. Sun god is the man, the strength, the fertile God and consort of the Lady. The dark lord is older, like the crone he represents endings, autumn, death, hunting, etc. These could also be likened to child, father, elder as well. IMHO

[Lilu]

I too have seen the explanation of the young man, father and elder (sage). I think we all go through that whether male or female.

As for the maiden, mother, crone thing, I don't see it necessarily as a BODY thing. You can mother things without giving physical birth to it. What about creation of a project and mothering of that? A business? A book? A garden? By creating something we can all take on that "mothering" feeling. Then there are pets too which we can love and mother without birthing. I don't see being a mother as physically having a child.

I see the maiden as young, strong and learning about life, not really anything to do with the body unless you talk about age, and the crone is to me a wise woman, someone who has experienced maidenhood of being spontaneous and "sowing of seeds" (??? yes women do that too *grin*), and motherhood by moving more into the mature responsible path of creation, growth, teaching etc. There's more to it but that's about what I'm at right now...

Of course there is more than one way to look at it too. No one has all the right answers.

BB
Lilu

[slvr_phoenix]

Xois, I think a lot of pagans are gender-biased, whether they believe it or not. I might even be. **shrug** Who knows?

And a lot of paganism is centered on the body, whether people want to admit it or not.

And to me, that's fine. People are allowed to believe what they want, so long as they don't go around bashing others for not being that way. Or something like that anyway.

That doesn't mean that you have to be that way though. Your heart already holds all of the answers for you, and so long as you're true to yourself, you're on the right path for you.

The way I choose to view Maiden-Mother-Crone isn't physical. I look at it as stages of personal growth. Maiden is the typical care-free personality that just wants to have fun. Mother is that personality when people start to take responsability for the world around them instead of just for themselves. Crone is the personality when wisdom has been aquired and you can look back and remember the joys of being blissfully ignorant and know the bittersweet sorrow that you'll never be able to go back to that.

Something like that anyway.

I look at it as a cycle of personality and spiritual/mental growth, not as physical.

Most people don't even acknowledge the possability of the God having several stages. Personally, I find it more harmful than beneficial to have done so to him. Most men, I don't think, go through stages like that, and to impose them onto the God is more like painting a donkey black and calling it a horse.

Maybe though that's because to me, most men, even all grown up and ancient, are still boys at heart. And most men, no matter what the age, think they're wise and can solve any problem. :) And I mean that in the kindest way of course. I think it makes men endearing, predictable, and valuable in their own special way. And this makes them a good balance for the ever-changing woman.

We shouldn't be trying to make the Goddess and the God the same. We should be trying to draw out the specific differences that empower them and allow them to work together to balance one another. To me, to try and make them more or less the same is the sexist way to do it, even if it's being done in the name of gender-equality. I mean let's face it, we're all individuals, each with our own strengths and weaknesses. We should celebrate that, not force "equality" on that.

That's my two cents anyway. Take them or toss them to the wind as you see fit. :)

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Xois
Isn't focusing on the archetypal "live giving" "earth-mother" "eternal sacrificer" the same engendered stereotypes that have existed for centuries...

I think you may be over-analyzing your question.

Most of the pagans I have met or know have been female. Like, I'd guess about 75% female. Of course, many of those were probably posers, but I'm not one to judge.

Someone should make a poll in the Just Talk or New Pagans threads, maybe we can get our own statistic.

Additionally, aren't some orders gender-restricted? Some pagan sects or societies may be limited to male-only or female-only.

Either way, a predominatly female following might explain the sexist assumptions you've seen.

- Ill

[sylphanie]

I would say that neopaganism is sexist (at least, in most incarnations) in that it accepts masculinity and femininity as inherent. The whole feminine is this, the masculine is that, there are and always will be two genders ideology. I haven't ever heard arguments about the various aspects of them, just to what extent each has influence in our lives.

Sylph

[Xois]

thanks for relocating!

[Tigerwallah]

I think that many of our goddesses were reduced to fertility idols at the dawn of Patriarcal religion. It often seems like the images of goddesses like Kali, Sekhemet and Diana are not nearly as plentyful as those of Ceres, Isis and other earth mother types.

I look at the "giver of life" to be more symbolic than literal. Historically, females have been given credit for the discovery of modern agriculture, and are by nature, creative beings - apart from the body. Men brought meat to the dinner table. Women created to feed the family. Men destroyed. Therefor, I think that women have shaped their own images as "life givers," and it is a very positive thing. It does not mean the literal mother or life giver as dictated by our phisiology, but more the universal life giver as dictated by our psychology.

Some early representations of the goddess showed the world forming between her legs in the womb. This is symbolic of so much more than mere motherhood on a familial level. I, a non reproducer, embrace this within myself. As I embrace my warrior goddess aspect. More and more neo pagan women are embracing goddesses such as Kali, Sekhemet, Hathor, and Diana who are either warriors or virgins (in the sense that they do not have a male partner). Many women, however, have a very strong maternal instict which attracts them to the Earth Mothers and mommy goddesses.

[Swanspirit]

Maiden....Goddess as the formation of the world, all things new and in the process of formation....
also the SEASONS of the wheel .. are inherently of the Goddess paradigm, and the Maiden celebrations of Beltaine , the Mother of the Nurturing of Growth ..... and Early Harvest, and the Crone..... the deep mysteries of Long Sleep Of Death and Rebirth. Al of these parallel the Life of the God .... as his body is just as involved in the process, as the Child, and the Father Mage , and the Father Crone Sage, of Ancient Wisdoms,
In my Croning, as I am in the early stages, I have found that within the cycles there are cycles...... there is a "Crone Maiden " as it were who is new to this turn of the wheel, and is as wide-eyed as a child in the discovery of these mysteries. I have explored this concept with other pagans , who identify these cycles of growth and development in every stage...
in the Maiden there is a Crone who is the "death" of the Maiden and who leads her into mother hood , or the fuller knowledge of growth, not just "physical mothering".... and so on for each staqe. Also this process is NOT LINEAR..... so that when you do leave one it is gone forever, but Cylical and FOUNDATIONAL.... and as we grow and learn ... we do not leave behind the Maiden, but possess her more fully in entirety ....even unto her death..... and she does not leave us..... this is my experience..... The seed is found in the creation :>

Love and Light
Swannie

[IOLO]

I think I understand totally from where Xois is coming....(probably because we are both from Taxachusetts...haha).....but being witch, it really matters not to me as I don't worship anything....However.....I think if one is to grasp the concept of the oriental "Yin,Yang"...you'd have it.....energy source and form giver....the unity of two.....the inseparable twins....(OK Your Swanitude...no Gemini remarks...haha).

I think people create the problem by anthropomorphicizing..( hope spell check looks at that...)....

Nice thoughts and perspectives....makes this place a wonderful palce to visit...

IOLO

[Swanspirit]

Gemini remark LOL, I would have to say it twice ......
I would have to say it twice to get your attention LOL, or wrap it up in mulitcolored paper with sparkles or.........
but this thread is about paganism being inherently sexist, not Geminis being inherently sexist , or any other sign for that matter.....
Actually I think pagans are just like everyone else , some of them are sexist and some of them are not :>, but paganism is not inherently sexist anymore than astrology is .. now there are SEXIST astrologers ...... and that sexism might be inherent in SOME Astrologers interpretations......... but that is another but I love the way Xois thinks as well :>
Love and HUGS
Swannie

[Daniel]

Part of the problem is that one has to debate what, exactly, Neo-Paganism is. Does it include religious paths that have enjoyed a resurgance in recent years, or is it just new craft-magic paths born in the last "X-number" of years?

Such technicalities aside, my own particular take on the matter is much simpler.

There is a Divine SOMETHING. That SOMETHING is sexless and without morals. Considered as an entity seperate from the human race, it's like ... electricity. You need it to turn the TV on, but it doesn't decide which rerun of West Wing is showing that night.

For this reason, I don't superimpose gender or even personality on the Divine. My guess is that other people do it because those are the images they recognize, not because they're sexist.

Considered as an entity that NOT seperate from the human race, a part of each of us, it's a slightly different story; I believe that each of us has in their posession a Divine fragment, which accounts for a few things:

1) Our soul.
2) Our ability to practice the craft arts.
3) Instinctual responses.
4) The kind of wisdom and insight that comes from 'nowhere.'

I don't think that everyone has such a fragment. I believe, for example, that you can 'sell' it, in exchange for something you want, like power or the inability to feel pain. I also believe that such fragments are limited in number, and that some people, simply put, are born without one. Both scenarios explain, at least to me, why some people are capable of doing things that seem inhumanly stupid and/or cruel.

In any event, now that I'm about as on-topic as a monkey in a Catholic Mass, I'll stop talking.

[Sage Witch]

I'm not really sure what I'm responding to anymoe, but we'll give it a whirl anyway.

I have slightly dianic leanings. I see in the Goddess both the masculine and the feminine, which is a reflection of how I see gender in general. Your gender is in your chromosomes, and beyond that everyone has a little bit of "masculine" and a little bit of "feminine." You need both to be balanced, but for me that doesn't mean that you need an XY deity and an XX deity.

I agree that Maiden, Mother, Crone is not just reference to the body. Like so many other symobls in paganism they symbolize a life cycle, but it can be the life cycle of an idea or a project as well as that of a person. I also see the Goddess in the fourth aspect of Warrior, which for me symbolized change, movement, and what is typically considered "masculine".

[talamh]

Paganism or Neo-paganism is usually defined as one of the earth-based nature spiritualities. The mythos is based in moon phases and the solar year.

If that is sexist then it is sexist that menstral cycles are usually about 28 days and that that mirrors the cycle of the moon. To me that doesn't mean women and men are defined by their genitals and neither are the entities we call gods and goddesses. There are warrior goddesses and nurturing gods and every combination in between.

The currant percieved emphasis on Goddess, i would say, comes from the recent rediscovery of the Goddess by the "western" world. Personally, after i rediscovered the Goddess, i had to rediscover the God.... rehabilitate my relationship with the Divine Masculine after the damaging images of the Judeo-Christian god that i grew up with. This was a much more difficult.. and at the time, very politically incorrect, journey.

Paganism isn't sexiast any more then menstral cycles and testicles are sexist. We live in a sexist, imbalanced society. The re-emergence of the Goddess in our collective awareness is helping to restore the balance. Honouring maiden, mother and crone, the new-born sun god, the lusty green god or the sacrificing grain god are expressions of our mortal relationships with the immortal ones... whoever they may be and whatever gender they may or may not have. There is at least as much heat in the pot of boiling water as there is in the fire. The immortal ones are the fire. We are the boiling pot. bb talamh

[astrokaiju]

Originally posted by talamh anEiac
Paganism or Neo-paganism is usually defined as one of the earth-based nature spiritualities. The mythos is based in moon phases and the solar year.

If that is sexist then it is sexist that menstral cycles are usually about 28 days and that that mirrors the cycle of the moon. To me that doesn't mean women and men are defined by their genitals and neither are the entities we call gods and goddesses. There are warrior goddesses and nurturing gods and every combination in between.

The currant percieved emphasis on Goddess, i would say, comes from the recent rediscovery of the Goddess by the "western" world. Personally, after i rediscovered the Goddess, i had to rediscover the God.... rehabilitate my relationship with the Divine Masculine after the damaging images of the Judeo-Christian god that i grew up with. This was a much more difficult.. and at the time, very politically incorrect, journey.

Paganism isn't sexiast any more then menstral cycles and testicles are sexist. We live in a sexist, imbalanced society. The re-emergence of the Goddess in our collective awareness is helping to restore the balance. Honouring maiden, mother and crone, the new-born sun god, the lusty green god or the sacrificing grain god are expressions of our mortal relationships with the immortal ones... whoever they may be and whatever gender they may or may not have. There is at least as much heat in the pot of boiling water as there is in the fire. The immortal ones are the fire. We are the boiling pot. bb talamh


i can't believe no one ever responded to this...this is so beautiful and wise. i am going to print it out and hang it up on my wall.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by astrokaiju
i can't believe no one ever responded to this...this is so beautiful and wise. i am going to print it out and hang it up on my wall.

In my case it's because fundamentally I don't agree with it.


Paganism or Neo-paganism is usually defined as one of the earth-based nature spiritualities. The mythos is based in moon phases and the solar year.

A lot of Pagan paths aren't earth-based, mine is one of them. The mythos of the paths I look at also aren't necessarily based on moon phases or the solar year (I would agree Wicca is, but of course Wicca isn't the only Pagan path).

Also, I think what's been missed there is that Xois' original problem was probably not that the course of one's menstrual period mirrors the moon phases, but that so often we base our ideas of the divine on fertility. This doesn't mesh well with those of us who aren't interested in/able to be fertile. For a woman who never wants children, for instance, the fact that a great part of the Wiccan idea of Goddess (maiden, mother, crone) and in particular the mother is based on a part of life they don't plan to partake in, can create a huge problem.

Her issue, I think, wasn't that our being male or female is sexist, but in the focus on one part of some female's lives being the ultimate expression of what being female is.

It's interesting that you resurrected this thread recently, because I've been reconsidering my own ideas of the mother in regards to fertility, and the Goddess as a whole.

[SagaDraco]

"Isn't focusing on the archetypal "live giving" "earth-mother" "eternal sacrificer" the same engendered stereotypes that have existed for centuries...

Sure there is a celebration, an acceptance and a worship of these aspects, but it still relegates women to creature of their body--the womb the place of creation, the vagina, the exit / enterance of life, the breast, the fount of nourishment...

Help me out, guys, I am really having trouble reconciling this--

Or is this the "first step", rebelling against the mysogny and it will eventually be replaced with a more wholistic understanding..."

Womans job-conceive, give birth to, and feed young

Mans job- impregnate, protect, provide.

You are here soley to improve and pass on your genes. Nature has decided that is currently the best course of action to evolve. And until you develop some freaky mind transference, we are all creatures of our bodies. I'd move out of mine, but I have nowhere else to go. :)

[Demeter]

Yes, we are creatures of our bodies. And we must deal with other creatures who happen to live in bodies. However, we are not ONLY our bodies, nor are we, in this day and age, forced to live in manners strictly circumscribed by gender and bodily functions. (Quite frankly, in any age, it has been possible for people to define their lives by something other than gender - it's just easier now.)

Many Pagan traditions, Wiccan and otherwise, revere the Goddess in forms other than Maiden/Mother/Crone. Look at Athena, at Durga (who slew a demon no God could slay), at Kali. Strictly speaking, we could characterise Athena as Maiden, Durga as Mother, Kali as Crone, but then we'd miss so much more. Artemis is also a Maiden, but again, so much more, and so different from Athena. By slapping on that simple label, you limit your perception of the Goddess, by whatever name you choose to call her, and thereby limit your perception of what women are capable of being. The same applies to the male. The Youth/Father/Elder trio is just as limiting.

I'd like to note that it seems that the Maiden/Mother/Crone trinity, while fairly common, was NOT the predominant understanding of the Goddess in ancient times. Likewise, the Son/Father/Elder trinity was a common but not the predominant understanding of the God. It became predominant in the Christian trinity, and I think a lot of the Pagan Goddess trinity thinking is in response to the Christian one (i.e., "They have a trinity, so we have to have one too."). At some point (possibly originating with Frazer?) it became fashionable to set up all Goddesses into trinities, whether they belonged there or not. We don't have to limit ourselves to that pattern! Both God and Goddess are so much more than simple gender-based trinities, and there are so many options available to us as pagans now that we can choose those for which we feel the greatest affinity.

As far as Saga Draco's comments go, human evolution stepped out of the purely physical realm the minute we figured out how to pass on stories to our young. Physically we remain pretty much the same as our Cro-Magnon ancestors, but evolution continues in the mental realm as well as the physical. Our knowledge, our understanding, our imagination can live on beyond us as individuals, and possibly beyond us as a species. The total of humanity's knowledge exceeds that which any one of us can keep.

[buttercup]

Originally posted by Raevyn
For a woman who never wants children, for instance, the fact that a great part of the Wiccan idea of Goddess (maiden, mother, crone) and in particular the mother is based on a part of life they don't plan to partake in, can create a huge problem.

Her issue, I think, wasn't that our being male or female is sexist, but in the focus on one part of some female's lives being the ultimate expression of what being female is.

I understand this viewpoint, but I think this really comes down to perspective. The maiden/mother/crone trinity is something that is repeated everywhere you look. I plant a bulb, it grows and produces a bud, next you have a flower, slowly it begins to close or lose its petals and sooner or later it wilts and dies. Same with a tree. The moon waxes, is full and wanes. The sun rises, reaches its zenith, then sets. To me a maiden is one who is growing, unmature, still uncomfortable in what she is to become (a seed or a bud); mother aspect is a woman in her glory, comfortable in who she is, giving back to her family or community in her strength and growing knowledge (a bloom); a crone is one who has learned and become wise, has taken the knowledge she has gleaned and is imparting it to those who will follow her. I believe these are times in a life cycle, not a physical state. There are women I know who have given birth that I would not say are in the mothering aspect of their lives. I'd say the same applies with the aspects of the god. Granted, this is a watered down and simplistic view, but my point is that if you are looking to see the mother aspect as only a woman who has given birth you may be missing out on a lot. If you look at the aspects and boil it down to a literal take on a womans body you may be finding only what you're looking for.

[SagaDraco]

"As far as Saga Draco's comments go, human evolution stepped out of the purely physical realm the minute we figured out how to pass on stories to our young. Physically we remain pretty much the same as our Cro-Magnon ancestors, but evolution continues in the mental realm as well as the physical. Our knowledge, our understanding, our imagination can live on beyond us as individuals, and possibly beyond us as a species. The total of humanity's knowledge exceeds that which any one of us can keep."

If this were tue, we would could read and speak at birth without being taught. It sounds nice n' fluffy, but is scientifically meaningless and impossible. We have changed quite a bit since old Cro-Maggie, that useless little appendix, those pesky wisdom teeth left over from when we had wider jaws. We've also shrunk a bit in height. Our mental evolution is soley the result of PHYSICAL evolutionary changes in the brain. The meaning of life will remain genetic improvement via reproduction until something else comes along. Nihilistic? Yep. Reality? Yep.

[Raevyn]

Originally posted by buttercup
If you look at the aspects and boil it down to a literal take on a womans body you may be finding only what you're looking for.

And my point is it's not a result of looking for something - it's not as easy as going "oh yeah, it's not just about the body". That's entirely the point - we are so conditioned to the Goddess represented as the fertile mother earth, especially in Wicca, that it's hard to recognize her in any other way. It's not a "literal take on the body" as much as that a lot of Goddess spirituality is tied up in the earth and fertility in crops and in children. She is thought of as the mother of life, the fertile crop, pregnant as the bearer of the God. What you listed as characteristics of mother I would attribute to the crone.

This is something I've only begun to understand recently. *shrugs*