Animal Sacrifice

[Pandoras]

How many pagans here perform animal sacrifices? Why or why not?

Please, don't take offense to this question. I have a sincere curiosity. I don't perform animal sacrifices, but lately I've come across some pagans that do and I was wondering if this was widely practiced.

[Mesektet]

i havent ever done any myself, though the moment has never called for it either...

[misschief]

i don't do it. i will use hair, blood and fingernails... but not as a sacrifice.

[semi]

I do not use life force offerings. In my tradition there is the belief that by using an animal in a sacred act you elevate the spirit of the animal into the sacred realm. I believe that the animals' life is already sacred, therefore I don't have the right to kill it. The spirits I work with have even told me a couple times that they want meat. I told them I can't do that. They still like me and I still do what I do successfully. If blood is required, red palm oil is a perfect and acceptable substitute.

[Iris]

Nooooo! Never! :( I could never hurt or kill an animal, I would be sick. I'm squeamish and also...it would just never enter my head as an acceptable thing to do. I've never understood why a pagan (or anyone really) would do such a thing. The way I see it is, as the most intelligent species on this planet, we have a responsibility to the earth and to the other animals that inhabit it. By hurting or killing an animal, we are making a mockery of that responsibility, we are betraying an animal's trust...we are using our greater physical strength to cause another living thing pain and misery, and that I find inexcusable.

I once read somewhere on a Wiccan site "The God and Goddess need not blood to be duly worshipped" and I believe that.

I hope this post made sense. I'm kinda tipsy.

[Fideal]

I haven't. I might offer up a fish I caught, I guess, if I needed too. Since I'd be killing them anyway. I haven't done blood offerings either, though I have no problem with it and might in the future.

[samiaminsane]

I wouldn't do it, because to me sacrificing an animal would be the same as sacrificing a human.

[Faeawyn]

No, I never have and never would. Who am I to say that my life is more valuable than that of another? Except spiders....I have to squish spiders. But even then, I couldn't do it in a ritual and offer the life of the spider for something. It just seems wrong to me.

[Mesektet]

blood magick is something we have worked with many times before, i guess we have a better tendency to use ourselves before thinking of something else to use...if it came down to it though, savage as it maybe, so is the world in all its glory...

[violet rain]

I have never done a animal sacrifice and I know I never will that is just against who I am,though I have done a few blood rituals with my own but never someone elses.

[misschief]

i don't think i can say i never would. if it was needed i would do it. i have just never needed to. *shrug* i use my own blood alot, i'll use fingernail clippings and hair from others... but that's all. at least so far. i'm not wiccan tho, so i don't really go by the wiccan rules.

[grnpuffer]

It depends on where you draw the line on sacrifice.
My group had a sacred meal of wild killed elk as part of a ritual.
We were so astonished by the experience of powerful energies filling our bodies, for a while we could only manage staring silently at one another. I'll never forget it.

The animal wasn't killed in ritual, or exclusively for us, but we benefitted from it's death.

Likewise, there's a shop that sells rattles made of turtle shells, and other ritual implements (the owner buys them off the indian reservation and sells them to tourists). I got creeped out when I entered the shop because the feel of the animals is very strong (and I don't beleive they were harvested in a respectful way). Lots of people in my community give that store regular business- it's cool to show up at a public ritual wearing a head dress with the skin of a coyote and carrying a club made with buffalo bones.

The fact is that pagans do their share of maintaining an industry the has a real impact. As far as magical or karmic responsibility- I think that just because a practitioner didn't pop the head off the turtle themselves, doesnt make them immune to that responsiblity- because they created a market for it.

[Ahautenites]

I've done only one blood ritual, but it was only with a couple drops of my own blood and for the most important spell I ever worked (and so far, so good, I might add...). Nothing I personally do magically or religiously requires the use of an animal sacrifice. I'd sooner sacrifice my own life than that of an animal for the sake of religion or spellwork anyway. (Besides, my gods tend to require personal sacrifices of me rather than the deadly-to-animals kind.)

On the other hand, I know of several spells that can use raw meat as one of the ingredients, but I don't consider that to be an animal sacrifice because the animal isn't butchered for the sole purpose of a spell.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

By hurting or killing an animal, we are making a mockery of that responsibility, we are betraying an animal's trust...we are using our greater physical strength to cause another living thing pain and misery, and that I find inexcusable.


If you actually know what you're doing, and have the proper skills to make the sacrifice, then no you are not causing pain and misery when you sacrifice an animal. It's only those who don't have a clue that will cause the animal undue pain and suffering.

It is not something I have ever done, and I doubt the occassion will ever come up that I would find it necessary, but should the occassion arise that absolutely calls for it, then I would not have a problem doing so. It is something my gods have always expected, and though I'm sure they understand that in this day and age it is not an acceptable practice to most people, I doubt they would exactly reject the offering if it were made.

I can say though, that the idea presented by grnpuffer of using fresh meat, that wasn't explicitely killed for the purpose of the sacrifice, is not a bad idea. If the meat was either going to be going to waste or used for food anyhow, why not. My gods would appreciate it, and I imagine that it would be a very powerful form of ritual.

[Faeawyn]

I guess I just can't imagine an occassion where it would be "necessary" to kill an animal. :whatgives:

[Pandoras]

There are some interesting and provocative thoughts here, but I think I need to be more specific about my question.

When I mean "animal sacrifice" I don't mean the use of an animal that will be consumed. I mean the use of an animal purely for its blood. For example, in Santeria, there is a ritual that involves breaking off the head of a live chicken over a person and letting its blood over the person. A typical ritual like this involves many chickens which are often larter discarded. Similar rituals involve live goats and other animals.

Originally Posted by Mòrag Elasaid MacDhòmhnaill
If you actually know what you're doing, and have the proper skills to make the sacrifice, then no you are not causing pain and misery when you sacrifice an animal. It's only those who don't have a clue that will cause the animal undue pain and suffering.

I'm not passing judgement on Santeros and the like, but the above-mentioned ritual doesn't sound painless.

[Bec_W]

I don't think I could ever scarifice and animal and I'm not sure in what situations it would be necessary.

[Shanti]

I couldnt. I have a hard time killing an animal thats dieing in pain. I have a hard time eating meat period. I couldnt.

[ancestral_lee]

my personal opinion is that there is a time and place for sacrifice - full stop.

i dont believe that we can go on asking for assistance from the gods/ancestors or spirits without giving somthing in return - and by return i dont mean leaving a flower (though there is also a time and place for that!)

sacrifice requires YOU to sacrifice something of value - otherwise whats the point?

to our ancestors, thier livestock were thier life - they provided everything they needed in life from food to clothing and tools. if thier need was great, a great sacrifice ot them was to kill a cow.

these days things are different - for a start we dont generally have access to livestock and so cant make a sacrifice of them. to most of us a sacrifice would more appropriately be of money and time - so an aideal offering would be to cook a slap up meal and offer the gods the first portion, or perhaps a glass of nice wine.

voudon practice utilises animal sacrifice to 'feed' the lwa (gods pretty much) as they are spirits and need energy top-ups - though in these cases the meat is cooked with the lwa also getting the first portion.

i think that if you are capable and adept at killing or slaughtering and have access to the animals involved, i see no problem in sacrificing something you have raised and looked after before offering its life force and then sharing in a meal with the gods and those you 'work' with.

personally - if i want blood for a working i use my own as its a far more porent thing. animal sacrifcie i think is more appropriate in a meal - ritual setting rather than merely as a spellworking aid.

lee

[Bec_W]

I couldnt. I have a hard time killing an animal thats dieing in pain. I have a hard time eating meat period. I couldnt.

*nods* yeah, me too.

[WinterTree]

I just couldn't do it. I have big regrets about having to kill insects alone.....anything else would drive me mad.

[mythwalker]

I have never and would never take the life spirit from any creature for my personal gain!No way, No how! If a spell called for a drop of witches blood I may use mine but nothing more. Roasting a pig or a goat for a feast after a ritual IMO is a completly seperate issue.Though some may call this a sacrifice I don't feel that it is. But for magical purposes, a life spirit is a life spirit whether it be animal or human! Bright Blessings

[The High Queen of Faerie]

i really haven't heard about modern pagans performing animal sacrifices...

i myself don't do it ._.

where are you hearing that pagans do? i'd be interested in their belief systems (not to adapt to my own, just for the sake of curiosity)

[The High Queen of Faerie]

It depends on where you draw the line on sacrifice.
My group had a sacred meal of wild killed elk as part of a ritual.
We were so astonished by the experience of powerful energies filling our bodies, for a while we could only manage staring silently at one another. I'll never forget it.

The animal wasn't killed in ritual, or exclusively for us, but we benefitted from it's death.

Likewise, there's a shop that sells rattles made of turtle shells, and other ritual implements (the owner buys them off the indian reservation and sells them to tourists). I got creeped out when I entered the shop because the feel of the animals is very strong (and I don't beleive they were harvested in a respectful way). Lots of people in my community give that store regular business- it's cool to show up at a public ritual wearing a head dress with the skin of a coyote and carrying a club made with buffalo bones.

The fact is that pagans do their share of maintaining an industry the has a real impact. As far as magical or karmic responsibility- I think that just because a practitioner didn't pop the head off the turtle themselves, doesnt make them immune to that responsiblity- because they created a market for it.


i agree. :)

once my parents went to florida and got me a little baby crocodile head for a gift... and i cried and cried because i love crocodiles and the thought of someone just using this beautiful animal's being as a stupid tourist gift... just upset me beyond belief.

[Fairyelf]

I wouldn't do it, because to me sacrificing an animal would be the same as sacrificing a human.
thats exactly how I feel as well.
I just would not get anything out of killing a living thing
so no I dont do animal sacrifices

[HorseCrow]

I never have and I never will- it is against everything I am and believe in.

[Strawberry Bounce]

No. Never will.

[Nantonos]

i don't do it. i will use hair, blood and fingernails... but not as a sacrifice.

Can you explain what you use them for, then?

I think there may be a problem of semantics in this thread. For example, when a Pagan Roman or Greek took a pinch of incense and cast it upon burning coals as part of a religious ritual, this was described as a sacrifice. Pouring a libation of wine, oil or milk, was a sacrifice.

[Grey]

*shakes head* I have used blood in my work often enough, especially with runes. I would sacrifice an animal if required. There would have to be a good reason and it would not be something I did lightly but I would do it. Anything can be sacrificed for the right cause and reasons. If the killing of a goat that Ive raised from kid to ram can save the life of any of my Kin I would slaughter it in a heartbeat.
Everything in life must be paid for one way or another. If you use the spirit of an animal to help power your magic then you will pay for it in some token. Wether that was caring for it for years as well as it could possibly want, or having the grief of losing it, or some other form... in the end it is paid.
We all die eventually. The best that we can ask is that we not die in vain, or unfullfilled. An animal bread and raised and well treated for the purpose is fulfilling that purpose. If my purpose in life is to jump in front of my friend when the bullets fly then so be it. There is only Honor in this.

And I would like to add that if properly done no living thing need die in pain. A quick death before the brain even registers what happened is not hard to arrange. Only a cruel person or a complete imbecil would try to kill a creature in any other fashion.

[Nantonos]

There are some interesting and provocative thoughts here, but I think I need to be more specific about my question.

When I mean "animal sacrifice" I don't mean the use of an animal that will be consumed. I mean the use of an animal purely for its blood.

Thanks for the clarificatgion. I suspect earlier posters did not know that you meant this more specialised and unusual definition.

To add further confusion, the sacrifice of an animal which was then eaten was termed 'a blood sacrifice' even if blood was not actually offered to the gods. In Roman ritual, a portion of each of the internal organs and a small piece of each limb was offered as a sacrifice; the rest was eaten or sold in a butchers shop.

In pre-Roman Gallic practice, animals were also consumed and the bones cast into a trench that separated the sacred ground from the outside world. often different bones would be in different areas of he site, and only bones of a certain type might be used. (I am thinking of the excavations at Ribemont-sur-Ancre and Gournay-sur-Arronde here)

For example, in Santeria, there is a ritual that involves breaking off the head of a live chicken over a person and letting its blood over the person. A typical ritual like this involves many chickens which are often larter discarded. Similar rituals involve live goats and other animals.

This reminds me of the Mithraic initiation rite in which the candidate for initiation was in a pit below an eare where a bull was sacrificed; the blood of the bulll fell through onto the initiate, reenacting the sacrifice of the bull by Mithras. Similar phrases are used in Judaic and Christian ritual - 'washed in the blood of the lamb' as an example, or 'this is ,my body, this is my blood - take, eat in remembrance of me'. Although in both cases this is symbolic rather than actual nowadays, just as many Wiccans enact a symbolic rather than actual Great Rite.

I'm not passing judgement on Santeros and the like, but the above-mentioned ritual doesn't sound painless.

Sounds rather like a judgement to me :) In Roman ritual, the animal was first felled by a mallet, then cut with a knife as it fel senseless to the ground. Which is about as humane as a modern slaughterhouse.

Talking of which, both Jewish (kosher) and Muslim (halal) religions require that only sacrificial meat be consumed. The animal is blessed by a priest and then has its throat cut and the blood is drained.

So (to answer the original question) animal sacrifice is very widely practiced today, but not by Pagans; rather, by two of the three Abrahamic monotheistic faiths. The third one, as noted above, has moved on to symbolic human sacrifice (communion).

[Nantonos]

I have never and would never take the life spirit from any creature for my personal gain!No way, No how!

Okay, but then you seem to talk yourself round in a circle - you would use blood obtained with consent from an animal (yourself) and you would eat meant as part of a ritual. So, it is a sacrifice by the original definition of the term.

If a spell called for a drop of witches blood I may use mine but nothing more. Roasting a pig or a goat for a feast after a ritual IMO is a completly seperate issue.Though some may call this a sacrifice I don't feel that it is. But for magical purposes, a life spirit is a life spirit whether it be animal or human! Bright Blessings

OK so the only difference here is that you don't do the actual killing the animal part, refrigeration and convcenience meaning that this part is subcontracted to a supermarket.

Do you dedicate the animal to the gods before eating?

(Related question for any Christo-Pagans in the thread - do you eat meat and do you say grace beforehand?)

[rain_fallen_tears]

I couldnt. I have a hard time killing an animal thats dieing in pain. I have a hard time eating meat period. I couldnt.

I agree....its not only that I couldn't its that I wouldn't, hurting or killing an animal is sickening. Never would I find a need or want of my own, to make murdering an innocent sacred life form, neccisary. Animals are pure in my eyes, it angers me to think of someone killing a fellow creature for their own demands or that of a higher being is diluted and wrong. It is not our right to take the life of others, whether they be human or animal.

[Nantonos]

I agree....its not only that I couldn't its that I wouldn't, hurting or killing an animal is sickening. Never would I find a need or want of my own, to make murdering an innocent sacred life form, neccisary. Animals are pure in my eyes, it angers me to think of someone killing a fellow creature for their own demands or that of a higher being is diluted and wrong. It is not our right to take the life of others, whether they be human or animal.

So, you are vegan I assume?

[Erebus]

OK so the only difference here is that you don't do the actual killing the animal part, refrigeration and convenience meaning that this part is subcontracted to a supermarket.

BAM! Good call!

[Iris]

If you actually know what you're doing, and have the proper skills to make the sacrifice, then no you are not causing pain and misery when you sacrifice an animal. It's only those who don't have a clue that will cause the animal undue pain and suffering.

Even if the animal wasn't in any pain whatsoever, I would still find it unacceptable to kill it. I don't feel I have any right to take away the life of another living thing, period.

[argento_occhi]

i love eating meat. i'm a born carnivore. sacrificing an animal in ritual? i don't think i could do it. I can do dissections on dead/preserved organisms, but not if they're alive. if i have to take another's life to make my own spell come to fruition, then it's not worth doing. The cost of that life to me is more important/greater than the reason for the ritual. I would never consider it. And i've proclaimed myself a carnivore. Although these animals die, we breed them for their meat. i know it sounds hypocritical, attack me if you like for being this way, i'm not trying to place us as superior to them. I would never 'kill' more than i needed. Humans are like bears, omnivores, able to eat both meat and plants and survive. Now if only humans acted more like bears... I'll stop ranting now.

bright blessings,
argent

[LadyTrinity]

HECK NO. Do I need to explain why I dont?:bug:

[Khuinaset]

I know I wouldn't sacrifice another living thing...besides the not wanting to do it, I don't think I could manage to make myself to.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

There are some interesting and provocative thoughts here, but I think I need to be more specific about my question.

When I mean "animal sacrifice" I don't mean the use of an animal that will be consumed. I mean the use of an animal purely for its blood. For example, in Santeria, there is a ritual that involves breaking off the head of a live chicken over a person and letting its blood over the person. A typical ritual like this involves many chickens which are often larter discarded. Similar rituals involve live goats and other animals.

I'm not passing judgement on Santeros and the like, but the above-mentioned ritual doesn't sound painless.

If done properly and with skill the slitting of the animals neck is painless. They will be dead before their brain can register the pain.

[ancestral_lee]

I agree....its not only that I couldn't its that I wouldn't, hurting or killing an animal is sickening. Never would I find a need or want of my own, to make murdering an innocent sacred life form, neccisary. Animals are pure in my eyes, it angers me to think of someone killing a fellow creature for their own demands or that of a higher being is diluted and wrong. It is not our right to take the life of others, whether they be human or animal.

so you are a vegan i assume? you dont deflea or deworm your pets? nothing in your house is made from leather?

im also intrigued by your phrase Animals are pure in my eyes what do you mean PURE?? and you do realise that humans are animals too?

to those of you who have gicen short 3 or four word answers saying no, could you perhaps explain why? after all you are trying to follow a religous path which in the past involved sacrifice of animals or people at probably fairly regular times - do you think that was wrong? do you think our ancestors were misguided or possibly did they know best and we have a wooly idea of our place in the world and think animals too nice to die?

[misschief]

i get most of the points made here. but what i don't get is how a death is so horrible. yes... we shouldn't be killing animals for fun or in excruciating ways..... but come on.. it's the cycle of life. things are born, they are killed, very rarely does an animal just die all on it's own. usually something or someone has killed it.

[Seren_]

How many pagans here perform animal sacrifices? Why or why not?

Please, don't take offense to this question. I have a sincere curiosity. I don't perform animal sacrifices, but lately I've come across some pagans that do and I was wondering if this was widely practiced.

I've never sacrificed an animal, but for certain things I will give a little of my own blood or hair, say. I have given up jewellery as well, which as something important and valuable to me, I see as being more a sacrifice than offering something my body's going to grow back or produce more of anyway.

I eat meat (but not fish), but I'd consider it cruel to kill something that I have absolutely no training or skill to do efficiently or painlessly. It's also illegal to keep chickens and livestock where I live (urban area), so it's not exactly practical either. Also, my carpets are knackered, but the mess....

I have heard of an instance in Ireland where there was a large gathering and ritual celebration. I can't remember who it was, exactly, but I heard the Farrar's were there, and the Fellowship of Isis may have been involved (it could be an urban myth, though...).

The officiating priests sacrificed a goat (I think), which caused a lot of controversy at the time. Several vegetarian and vegan types present were outraged - there was no warning that this was going to happen. The organisers sounded quite unsympathetic at the time "it happens, it's life, get a grip", kind of thing. I suppose they were lucky it didn't get picked up by the media...imagine the controversy then.

[misschief]

i'll probably get reemed for this but.... i agree with 'it's life, it happens' *shrug*

[Seren_]

Aye, but there's a respect issue as well. There was no warning that it would happen, so people didn't have the choice to opt out. If anything, it's not encouraging a good ritual atmosphere.

Edit: That's my take, anyway.

[misschief]

well sure, everyone needs to know what's going to happen... and assuming they do i just don't see anything wrong with it if there is a real reason. not just...... hey i feel like hijacking some animals life today.

[Grey]

Even if the animal wasn't in any pain whatsoever, I would still find it unacceptable to kill it. I don't feel I have any right to take away the life of another living thing, period.

Hmm... what about plants? are they not a living thing? You cant tell me youve never eaten anything... What is the differrance between eating a hunk of cow flesh or a hunk of carrot flesh? Its ALL alive.

And dont even try to tell me you eat rocks alone. And were not even going to go into place spirits are we now?

[morrigen]

Hmm... what about plants? are they not a living thing? You cant tell me youve never eaten anything... What is the differrance between eating a hunk of cow flesh or a hunk of carrot flesh? Its ALL alive.

And dont even try to tell me you eat rocks alone. And were not even going to go into place spirits are we now?

Central nervous system. At least that's where I make the distinction.

No, I would not sacrifice an animal...to me it's no different sacrificing a goat-animal than it is to sacrifice a human-animal.

I'll use my own blood if I need something of that nature.

[Erebus]

Even if the animal wasn't in any pain whatsoever, I would still find it unacceptable to kill it. I don't feel I have any right to take away the life of another living thing, period.

Wow. You don't eat. That's impressive.

[Nantonos]

Wow. You don't eat. That's impressive.

I notice that a distinction here is peope who don't kill (animals), rather than who don't eat them. Many posts seem to describe sacrifice as the act of taking a life; apart from the vegans here, whose consistent views I respect but do not share, the meat eaters seem to feel that once its been done by someone else, then they are all set.

I pointed out earlier (It may have been a long post, but I felt there were a number of points to make) that it was the offering of (a portion) of the animal to the gods (by burning, or burying, or whatever) that constituted the sacrifice in ancient times. The actual killing, in Graeco-Roman practice, was done by an assistant, not by the person making the sacrifice.

I am reminded of a conversation with someone whose kids would only eat meat and fish that did not look like animal parts - fish fingers, chicken nuggets, etc. The kids knew where the meat came from bu were more comfortable with ignoring it. That sort of self imposed delusion, in an adult, seems odd in a religious path that stresses self awareness and personal responsibility.

[aluokaloo]

I could not do an animal sacrifice thanks. Before Lee cxan jump on me and ask me why, its because I don't like the idea of taking an animal and slaughtering it, I'm not a vegan, or a vegetarian for clarification. No, I'm just one pampered pup, who couldn't do the farm life or even hunting. I like my meat frozen and packaged.Were our ancestors wrong in doing so? To me as long as the animal was going to be munched on anyways, I don't have a problem. If it ever called upon for fresh meat or I might try my luck at fishing, and for blood, I've never done bloodwork, but I'd use my own since to me that would be the giving of myself to my Gods. But they have never required anything like that of me, and I'm still loved. I would like to know where who was it that started this thread? Pandora? Where she knew of pagans doing animal sacrifices of the purely blood kind. Since at least to me it seems in this modern day and age thats a major taboo, said before if people say hunters/fishers live stock owners are doing a meal sacrifice then that doesn't bug me. There life.

[Storm]

I am going to go with the argument of it meant more when livestock=livelyhood and thus that is why it was a sacrifice.
It would mean more for me to offer a plant from the garden I've slaved over all summer long. Or if it is meat they craved well how about the first chunk of my juicy delicous filet mignon, eh? I put a lot into seasoning, timing and grilling to perfection. A chuck is a real sacrifice. Or a glass of my wonderful red wine and I like the good stuff!
If the Gods want me to slaughter an animal for the sake of slaughtering the animanl well.... the Gods I am associated with have yet to be displeased with my herb and cornmeal offerings I have given.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I am going to go with the argument of it meant more when livestock=livelyhood and thus that is why it was a sacrifice.
It would mean more for me to offer a plant from the garden I've slaved over all summer long. Or if it is meat they craved well how about the first chunk of my juicy delicous filet mignon, eh? I put a lot into seasoning, timing and grilling to perfection. A chuck is a real sacrifice. Or a glass of my wonderful red wine and I like the good stuff!
If the Gods want me to slaughter an animal for the sake of slaughtering the animanl well.... the Gods I am associated with have yet to be displeased with my herb and cornmeal offerings I have given.

Finally an argument against animal sacrifice that makes sense. You are right in that these things you've listed would be more of a sacrifice than slaughtering an animal. Unless of course the animal you slaughtered was your pet, and well I can't imagine anyone doing that.

[Nantonos]

I am going to go with the argument of it meant more when livestock=livelyhood and thus that is why it was a sacrifice.
It would mean more for me to offer a plant from the garden I've slaved over all summer long.

I agree.

Or if it is meat they craved well how about the first chunk of my juicy delicous filet mignon, eh?

Again i agree. This concept is popular among modern Christians as a daily observance. Its called 'saying grace' at mealtimes.

I put a lot into seasoning, timing and grilling to perfection. A chuck is a real sacrifice. Or a glass of my wonderful red wine and I like the good stuff!

:clapping: me too. And, often used by me as a sacrifice.

If the Gods want me to slaughter an animal for the sake of slaughtering the animanl well.... the Gods I am associated with have yet to be displeased with my herb and cornmeal offerings I have given.

:smile: :dinnertim

[Seren_]

My brain officially hurts...

[Pandoras]

My brain officially hurts...

Mine too.
:ahhhh:

[Grey]

Perhaps you would enlighten us as to the confusing parts of our arguments? It would deffinitly help us ease your suffering.

[Grey]

am going to go with the argument of it meant more when livestock=livelyhood and thus that is why it was a sacrifice.
It would mean more for me to offer a plant from the garden I've slaved over all summer long. Or if it is meat they craved well how about the first chunk of my juicy delicous filet mignon, eh? I put a lot into seasoning, timing and grilling to perfection. A chuck is a real sacrifice. Or a glass of my wonderful red wine and I like the good stuff!
If the Gods want me to slaughter an animal for the sake of slaughtering the animanl well.... the Gods I am associated with have yet to be displeased with my herb and cornmeal offerings I have given..

Finally an argument against animal sacrifice that makes sense. You are right in that these things you've listed would be more of a sacrifice than slaughtering an animal. Unless of course the animal you slaughtered was your pet, and well I can't imagine anyone doing that.

I dont see how this is an argument against animal sacrifice. All that was brought up was that in the case of Storm a plant was dearer to the heart. The fact remains that it is a sacrifice becuase you are giving up something that you value. That is the nature of sacrifice.


Central nervous system. At least that's where I make the distinction.

No, I would not sacrifice an animal...to me it's no different sacrificing a goat-animal than it is to sacrifice a human-animal.

I'll use my own blood if I need something of that nature

As for this... plant respond to sound, touch, smell, light, temperature and energy just like an animal or protozoan does. The simply arent mobile. That there "central nervous system" isnt made up of the same nerve cells that yours are is no reason to discriminate against them, anymore than the pigment or lack there of in your skin cells is any reason to discriminate against you.
I do however agree that in general sacrificing an animal that is well cared for is much like that of sacrificing a human, its really how close the the creature you are. How you see and feel about that creature determines the significance of the sacrifice.

To put it in plainer terms you would probly see the sacrificing of a cow to be of momumental proportions while hannibal lector could sacrifice your entire family like a plate of cookies.

[misschief]

To put it in plainer terms you would probly see the sacrificing of a cow to be of momumental proportions while hannibal lector could sacrifice your entire family like a plate of cookies.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: *falls over laughing*

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Perhaps you would enlighten us as to the confusing parts of our arguments? It would deffinitly help us ease your suffering.

The confusing parts would be that the vast majority of people who said they couldn't sacrifice an animal said they couldn't do it because they can't imagine hurting another living thing. As was brought up before if they eat at all, or even walk across their lawn, it is something they do every day. It's the same reason a lot of people give for being vegans or vegetarians that fails to compute in my brain.

[Seren_]

Perhaps you would enlighten us as to the confusing parts of our arguments? It would deffinitly help us ease your suffering.

Well my brain currently hurts in general...If the question is aimed at me at all!

But as to the argument at hand: Sacrifice, to me, implies "killing". Or at least giving something valuable, which I believe I have done already, rather than giving the life of a living being.

I do think that there is a difference between something inanimate that I personally ascribe value to, and an actual life..A life has a much wider context that has much more meaning than one person might necessarily ascribe to it. If you see what I mean?

For example, logically I too see plants as being "beings" as it were. And therefore to pick them or eat them implies killing them, as well as animals. But they don 't traditionally "bleat", as it were, and in this sense, for me it is much easier to give grain (for example) in the form of bread, say, than meat. Because grain doesn't scream like a goat would, say. But still, in one sense it's illogical - give one, why not the other?

I don't have anything against either concept (veggy or meat), but I freely admit that it is easier for me to give one than the other. As a meateater, say, I believe I should be able to kill something humanely; but if I were trained to kill such an animal, I have to ask myself if I were able to. I know for a fact I could kill something that was suffering...but a sacrifice? It would depend on how important I would view it...

Which makes me consider how I view my gods - a healthy question, I think, but nonetheless, one that gives me brain ache. Ultimately, I have to ask...would I kill for my gods? If I would, where would, or should, I stop?

[Bec_W]

I notice that a distinction here is peope who don't kill (animals), rather than who don't eat them. Many posts seem to describe sacrifice as the act of taking a life; apart from the vegans here, whose consistent views I respect but do not share, the meat eaters seem to feel that once its been done by someone else, then they are all set.

I pointed out earlier (It may have been a long post, but I felt there were a number of points to make) that it was the offering of (a portion) of the animal to the gods (by burning, or burying, or whatever) that constituted the sacrifice in ancient times. The actual killing, in Graeco-Roman practice, was done by an assistant, not by the person making the sacrifice.

I am reminded of a conversation with someone whose kids would only eat meat and fish that did not look like animal parts - fish fingers, chicken nuggets, etc. The kids knew where the meat came from bu were more comfortable with ignoring it. That sort of self imposed delusion, in an adult, seems odd in a religious path that stresses self awareness and personal responsibility.

My spiritual path is about sacrificing of myself rather then sacrificing of another. That said, I do see your point.

[rain_fallen_tears]

To all who found my post incredibly amusing and worth picking apart, I apologize. I am not a vegan, but am a vegetarian, I overreacted to the post and was quick to defend animals.
To ancestral lee....I do think that the sacrificing of animals in the practice of my path is wrong. Please do not patronize me. I have right to my own way of thinking, my own way of living and I do not appreciate your condescending.

[misschief]

well... to be sure my last post wasn't unclear... i wasn't laughing at you, i just thought grey's comment was funny. but since i did quote the comment, i assume everyone knew that. but, i've already said all i really can say on the topic. death is natural. things die. things get killed. every day. it's not so bad really. i can see why some people would never do it, i just don't agree. *shrug* no biggie.

[9-2-2]

If, for some strange reason, I wanted to desecrate some area or bind the person's soul to a certain location, I would. If it got me my ritual high, I would. On a more morbid note, I think it's interesting, and I probably would watch one just to see what it's like. I consider animals to be a trivial food source, and most humans to be a petty annoyance. There's a lot of people I wouldn't miss.

[Moonlight's Daughter]

Here is my two cents:

I couldnt see myself using animals for a sacrifice in magickal workings. One, I value them on the same level I value myself, but for the most part, I can do magickal workings without them, and use something else as a substitute. Since I belive I create my own reality, I can substute an anmimal sacrifice and use for instance, wine instead of blood, and it will pack the same powerful punch, needed for the ritual.

I have lived on a farm, killed the animals for food when it was needed. But for ritual when other items will work just as well, I dont see the reason for it, at least not for me. And I will never use a wild animal, to me there is a difference between domestic animals ( such as cows, and wild animals such as wolves) for example.

Just my feeling.

Brandiwyn

[misschief]

well.. i use my own blood in extremely difficult healing... and i don't think wine would do the trick. but, if you can make it work for you... you are better than i.

[Moonlight's Daughter]

Well, I have never had to do real extreme healing since I started on my path so.. who knows? I am not adverse to using my own blood if I had to, I just wouldnt use animals, not just for a ritual.. but that is just me

[misschief]

well.. first of all...
i didn't realize how smart assed that looked til i just read it over... sorry. i'm a natural smart ass. anyway... it does take a certain urgency in healing to need blood.. and that urgency isn't around very often (unless you are me.) but.. if it required an animal, i would do it. just me.

[mothwench]

When I mean "animal sacrifice" I don't mean the use of an animal that will be consumed. I mean the use of an animal purely for its blood. For example, in Santeria, there is a ritual that involves breaking off the head of a live chicken over a person and letting its blood over the person. A typical ritual like this involves many chickens which are often larter discarded. Similar rituals involve live goats and other animals.

do you have a source for that? one that says that the animals are often discarded?

I notice that a distinction here is peope who don't kill (animals), rather than who don't eat them. Many posts seem to describe sacrifice as the act of taking a life; apart from the vegans here, whose consistent views I respect but do not share, the meat eaters seem to feel that once its been done by someone else, then they are all set.

I pointed out earlier (It may have been a long post, but I felt there were a number of points to make) that it was the offering of (a portion) of the animal to the gods (by burning, or burying, or whatever) that constituted the sacrifice in ancient times. The actual killing, in Graeco-Roman practice, was done by an assistant, not by the person making the sacrifice.

I am reminded of a conversation with someone whose kids would only eat meat and fish that did not look like animal parts - fish fingers, chicken nuggets, etc. The kids knew where the meat came from bu were more comfortable with ignoring it. That sort of self imposed delusion, in an adult, seems odd in a religious path that stresses self awareness and personal responsibility.
:thewave: what he said. every single word. if it wasn't so time consuming and expensive, i'd get a hunting license. i'm thinking about getting some chickens and rabbits, actually. gotta convince the OH. :smile: and the landlady.

[Pandoras]

do you have a source for that? one that says that the animals are often discarded?

Yes. Santeria: A Practical Guide to Afro-Caribbean Magic by Luis Manuel Nunez is one book that discusses this (see page 11 just for starters). The title is a bit misleading since the book doesn't focus Afro-Caribbean magic in general, but specifically Santeria and Santeria alone (not voodoo). Also, I'd like to mention that I'm Cuban and I live in Miami. I know Santeros first hand. I'm familiar with some (although not all) of the practices.

But this is a bit off topic. I was just curious if Pagans here perform animal sacrifice. And I don't mean animals to eat or giving thanks at mealtime. I mean killing an animal simply for magick or because you feel that your god(s) require it. Personally, I do not and I'm seeing that the general consensus is no.

[Nantonos]

Yes. Santeria: A Practical Guide to Afro-Caribbean Magic by Luis Manuel Nunez is one book that discusses this (see page 11 just for starters). The title is a bit misleading since the book doesn't focus Afro-Caribbean magic in general, but specifically Santeria and Santeria alone (not voodoo). Also, I'd like to mention that I'm Cuban and I live in Miami. I know Santeros first hand. I'm familiar with some (although not all) of the practices.

But this is a bit off topic.

Hardly. It seems bang on topic to me. And i was concerned that some allegations might be made against Santeros, who are somewhat under represented at MW, passing on the same sort of misinformation and smears as the 'wiccans make candles from the fat of unbaptised babies' sort of nonsense.

So, please post more on this because we would all like to learn.

I was just curious if Pagans here perform animal sacrifice. And I don't mean animals to eat or giving thanks at mealtime.

That was, however, the originalmeaning of sacrifice. A sacrifixce is a portion offered to the gods. There are blood sacrifices and bloodless sacrifices.

blood sacrifice means an animal, and has nothing to do with using the actual blood necessarily.

But I guess I already covered that in earlier posts to monumental lack of interest :)

I mean killing an animal simply for magick or because you feel that your god(s) require it. Personally, I do not and I'm seeing that the general consensus is no.

I agree that with that definition, where the killing or the blood is the primary thing and the animal is not also used for any ritual feasting, the answer is no.

Except for halal and kosher, as already noted.

[mothwench]

Yes. Santeria: A Practical Guide to Afro-Caribbean Magic by Luis Manuel Nunez is one book that discusses this (see page 11 just for starters). The title is a bit misleading since the book doesn't focus Afro-Caribbean magic in general, but specifically Santeria and Santeria alone (not voodoo). Also, I'd like to mention that I'm Cuban and I live in Miami. I know Santeros first hand. I'm familiar with some (although not all) of the practices.
see page 11? :lol: i'm not about to go and buy a book about santeria. can you just post a bit about what page 11 says?
but well, if you know santeros first hand, and you've seen this happen, then i'm sorry about that, and yes, it's something i'd say is wrong. i still find it quite hard to believe that they would throw away a fine chicken dinner, but then i wasn't there, so i can't argue.

But this is a bit off topic. I was just curious if Pagans here perform animal sacrifice. And I don't mean animals to eat or giving thanks at mealtime. I mean killing an animal simply for magick or because you feel that your god(s) require it. Personally, I do not and I'm seeing that the general consensus is no.
killing an animal simply for magic and discarding the animal afterwards is extremely unrepresentative of the pagan paths i have come to learn about. so it's not off-topic at all. :kooky:

[seastone81]

This is kind of another side bar, but I have some close friends who are Greek and they ritualistically slaughter lambs for several different festivals during the year...

but they also do this as a feast, which fits under your "for food" exception.

it seems to me that people these days are capable of making a "big deal" out of animal sacrifice in one extreme (just killing to kill) or the other (don't kill anything! carrots have feelings too!) because most of us are so seperated from the process of actually killing.

it's moments like this that i really hate the plastic-wrapped boneless, skinless chicken morsels hanging out in the deli at my market. it's so much harder to truely have an appreciation for what you're eating when there are no eyes looking at you while you wield the knife...

i think that with the exception of true vegans (and I don't think many people appreciate how hard that is - Jello, camera film, and all sorts of products we consider indispensable have animal bone marrow as an ingredient), we all need to accept that we sacrifice animals all day every day. And then where do you draw the line - so if you eat peanut butter, or bread, there is a tollerated level of rat (because it's impossible to keep them ALL out of the grain and peanuts) - so even if you're not consciously eating animal, you are... I think someone calculated it once that the average American consumes 1 or 2 rats a year just by eating everyday foods?

I am probably one of the biggest bunny huggers there ever was/will be - it used to make me cry at night that I couldn't get away from the animal killing products... but I think it's important to realize that to some extent we are all at fault here.

_____

Seperate thought: animal abuse is one of several childhood pasttimes that seems to be highly comorbid with adults with severe antisocial disorders (i.e., killers, wife beaters, child beaters...) - IMO it's important to draw that line and say that abuse is not ever OK - if you're going to use an animal for yoru ritual, be humane.

for some reason this makes me think of Cold Mountain - did anyone read or see that? The old woman the heals the lead character in the woods - the "witchy" woman - she kills her pet goat for him because everything has its place and time, and the goat was needed to help the man heal. This is kind of where my feelings are on this matter - she killed the goat, but mercifully, and thanked it all the while for the meat and blader waterbottles etc. it would make...

sorry this is so long - I just have a lot of semi-conflicting thoughts here and haven't fully reconciled them yet. any thoughts would be appreciated.

[seastone81]

i agree. :)

once my parents went to florida and got me a little baby crocodile head for a gift... and i cried and cried because i love crocodiles and the thought of someone just using this beautiful animal's being as a stupid tourist gift... just upset me beyond belief.
*nods* it's nice that they were thinking of you, but that would really upset me too. baby everything are so cute! and just starting out in life - so much potential.

[seastone81]

If done properly and with skill the slitting of the animals neck is painless. They will be dead before their brain can register the pain.
I don't know any cases for animals in particular, but I know that people have been beheaded and still talking for 10-15 seconds. Pain receptors travel differently than blood, faster I think - I don't know this is a tough question but knowing what I do about people beheaded (according to the Tower of London guy anyway... here I am taking HIS word...), I would say that they do indeed feel pain.

[~ Monk ~]

Hmm... what about plants? are they not a living thing? You cant tell me youve never eaten anything... What is the differrance between eating a hunk of cow flesh or a hunk of carrot flesh? Its ALL alive.
Where do you draw the line? Do you feel there's a difference between killing a person and an animal? If you do, then you have to agree that there's a difference between killing an animal and a plant.

For those of you who follow/worship gods and/or goddesses - what would you do if one day they made it known that they expected you to sacrifice a human? Would you do it if it were absolutely necessary?

i'll probably get reemed for this but.... i agree with 'it's life, it happens' *shrug*
Cool! If I decide to worship gods that demand human sacrifice, I'll give ya a call. ;)

[BlackHoodedCrow]

my personal opinion is that there is a time and place for sacrifice - full stop.

i dont believe that we can go on asking for assistance from the gods/ancestors or spirits without giving somthing in return - and by return i dont mean leaving a flower (though there is also a time and place for that!)

sacrifice requires YOU to sacrifice something of value - otherwise whats the point?

to our ancestors, thier livestock were thier life - they provided everything they needed in life from food to clothing and tools. if thier need was great, a great sacrifice ot them was to kill a cow.

these days things are different - for a start we dont generally have access to livestock and so cant make a sacrifice of them. to most of us a sacrifice would more appropriately be of money and time - so an aideal offering would be to cook a slap up meal and offer the gods the first portion, or perhaps a glass of nice wine.

voudon practice utilises animal sacrifice to 'feed' the lwa (gods pretty much) as they are spirits and need energy top-ups - though in these cases the meat is cooked with the lwa also getting the first portion.

i think that if you are capable and adept at killing or slaughtering and have access to the animals involved, i see no problem in sacrificing something you have raised and looked after before offering its life force and then sharing in a meal with the gods and those you 'work' with.

personally - if i want blood for a working i use my own as its a far more porent thing. animal sacrifcie i think is more appropriate in a meal - ritual setting rather than merely as a spellworking aid.

lee

Very VERY well put. I agree. In some rituals the killing of the animal is more humane then how it is done in a slaughter house. Think about that next time you eat a hamberger.

D

[Loopaleigh]

Ok, it just so happens I own this book Pandoras is referring to.Santeria: A Practical Guide to Afro-Caribbean Magic. The first three chapters is an account of the authors personal Initiation Ceremony and all it entails. Nantonos asked for more info...here you go.

But first a disclaimer...... I do not practice animal sacrafic nor do I believe it is necessary to acceive a magical end. I believe to a certain extent it is cheating...after all, the animal is the one giving up it's life.

Having said that....I do not, however, condemn those who do practice it (Santeria, for example) so long as they understand the philosopy behind the act itself. People who practice Santeria have a deep respect for the animals they offer their Orishas (they don't consider them a "trivial food source") and a practical philosopy for why they do it. The ritual itself may be shocking and bloody, but it is quick and humane and done with a sacred reverence. I may not agree with it , but I also live in Miami and it is very popular here and I felt it necessary to educate myself on the subject.

And now a few words from the author Luis Manuel Nunez-
pg.11 "An Ebo is any sacrifice or offering to the Orishas. In the case of an initiation, the Ebos are the sacrifices the novice must make to appease the Orishas offended by his or her past faults or evil actions."
pg. 19- "The sacrificial killing establishes a strong bond between the novice and the Orishas. The same benefits extend to those that participate."
These are just two sited....there are many others in the book and this post is already really long...so read it if you want to know more, but beware, it is not for the faint of heart.
By the way...you can't just declare yourself a Santero and start performing sacrifices...you must be a Babalawo or an Iyalocha. This means years and years of involved rituals and initiations performed by OTHER Babalawo or Iyalocha.

[Nantonos]

Ok, it just so happens I own this book Pandoras is referring to.Santeria: A Practical Guide to Afro-Caribbean Magic. The first three chapters is an account of the authors personal Initiation Ceremony and all it entails.

Thanks for helping out. I don't have the book and its well outside my usual areas on interest but at the same time, I want to be better informed as general background about other paths.

And now a few words from the author Luis Manuel Nunez-
pg.11 "An Ebo is any sacrifice or offering to the Orishas. In the case of an initiation, the Ebos are the sacrifices the novice must make to appease the Orishas offended by his or her past faults or evil actions."
pg. 19- "The sacrificial killing establishes a strong bond between the novice and the Orishas. The same benefits extend to those that participate."

Ah, that is helpful, both for the cntent and for providing a search term.

From http://www.orishanet.org/ebo.html
Ebó (Sacrifice)

Animal Sacrifice is just a small part of the much larger definition of ebó (sacrifice or offering) in the religion. There are many categories of ebó. There are offerings such as addimú which can include candles, fruits, candy, or any number of items or actions that may be appreciated by the deities or orishas in the religion. In divination, the orishas may ask for a favorite fruit or dish, or they may call for the person to heed advice given. At times they may ask that a person give up drinking or other practices that are unwise for that individual. They may request a person to wear certain jewelry, receive initiations or any number of other things. Or they may request an animal, usually a chicken or a dove, so the orisha will come to that person's aid. As a rule, animal sacrifice is called for only in major situations such as sickness or serious misfortune. Animals are also offered when a new priest is consecrated in service of her or his orisha during the birthing process of initiation. In every birth there is blood.
... continues (http://www.orishanet.org/ebo.html) ....

So this seems to fall well into the spectrum of traditional sacrifice that I mentiioned in oither posts. A sacrifice might be a chicken or it might be a string of beads or it might be abstinance.

[Nantonos]

More stuff. From http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/2509/santa.html

Where animals are heavily featured in ritual, they are only sacrificed in the most dire of situations. In some cases the orisha may require the petitioner not to sacrifice the animal but to take it home and care for it. In these instances the animal is deemed an emissary of the orisha and thus granted almost regal status in the home.

This emphasis on doing the will of the Orishas whatever that may be, is interesting.

[asamananara]

When I mean "animal sacrifice" I don't mean the use of an animal that will be consumed. I mean the use of an animal purely for its blood. For example, in Santeria, there is a ritual that involves breaking off the head of a live chicken over a person and letting its blood over the person. A typical ritual like this involves many chickens which are often larter discarded. Similar rituals involve live goats and other animals.

I've witnessed something close to this, performed by a group
of witches in the hills of North Carolina as part of their
initiation rituals. Strictly speaking, the animal, a hog, was not
sacrificed (made sacred), but was killed as a proxy and a messenger.
When accepting a new member to their "coven", this group solemnized
his oath at the height of the initiation by hoisting a yearling
hog before the initiate. After branding the hog's throat with his
name, the initiate declared "It is not this hog I slaughter,
but myself" or some such thing, and then told the hog "go, and
tell what you have seen here". With this, the initiate stuck his
knife into the hog's throat, making it bleed like, well, like
a stuck pig. Like opening a faucet. This blood was caught in a
pail, which was then set upon the fire and allowed to boil away.
The resulting powder was later gathered and baked into a bread,
which was given to the whole coven to consume.
.
edited to add:
.
I don't know what became of the hog's carcass after the ritual.
I don't think it was eaten.

[Hathor]

I find that for rituals etc. that call for a living sacrifice, an egg does just as well and is more ethically sound, though I often use food, small objects or alcohol set alight (usually rum of similar), as offerings to the god/goddess or thought forms.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

To answer an earlier questions about whether i see sacrificing animals as being the same as plants or if sacrificing an animal is somehow better...I'd have to say that I actually think it's worse to sacrifice a plant because at least the animal has a fighting chance. The plant can't exactly get away from you, if you know what I mean.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

On a side note, here is a very interesting article about sacrifice and how it can be modified to be applicable to modern practice in which people find the sacrifice of an animal to be distasteful. The article can be found at IMBAS (http://www.imbas.org).


An Essay on Sacrifice
by Erynn Rowan Laurie
Copyright © 1997 Erynn Rowan Laurie
All Rights Reserved
May be reposted as long as the above attribution and copyright notice are retained
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the primary functions of sacrifice is the renewal of the cosmos. In Norse myth, we have, if I recall correctly, the giant Ymir who is killed and whose body creates the cosmos. This is paralleled in Hindu cosmology, where the sacrifice by the Brahmans reenacts the death of a divine, cosmic being whose body creates the cosmos. Although we do not have a Celtic creation myth preserved in the corpus of written and oral materials, I think it would be reasonable to think that their myth might follow this pattern as well.

If creation requires death and dismemberment to occur, then it would follow that only the sacrifice of something living will do to fulfill a cosmological sacrifice. This is not to say that monetary and other sacrifices cannot be made under other circumstances. They obviously were, and from what other folks here have said, this method is still being used, although it is in the context of a gift to the Gods rather than of cosmic renewal. Mauss would say that this sort of sacrificial gift creates a mutual relationship between the Gods and the human community that requires a reciprocal gift from the Gods of continued food, shelter, and other necessary survival substances. But as I've said, these gift exchanges do not renew the cosmos in a theological sense. They serve instead to renew community bonds. An important task to be sure, but not the point of cosmological sacrifice.

Some anthropologists and historians have speculated that the sacrifice of animals followed a period of the sacrifice of humans as the vehicle of cosmic renewal. We do know that the Celts sacrificed prisoners of war and occasionally other humans in some rituals, so they had not left that phase of sacrifice behind them entirely. I think that in this case, what we may be looking at are gifts to the Gods, or an exchange of life for life on the battlefield in the case of prisoners of war. Hypothetically speaking, the warriors of "our tribe" were successful and few were killed, but war is an arena of death and certain loss of life is expected or perhaps vowed as a part of the victory celebration, so prisoners from "their tribe" are sacrificed as a substitute for "our" warriors or as gifts to the deity of warriors. Other human sacrifices may serve as messengers to the Gods, carrying requests and information that cannot be trusted to lesser gifts. A human sacrifice, particularly as a foundation sacrifice, may serve as a spiritual guardian for the structure being built. But at some point, animal sacrifice was apparently substituted for human sacrifice in cosmic renewal ceremonies, as well as in other kinds of sacrifice, and so there would seem to be precedent for considered changes in this kind of ritual. We are not, then, looking for "an excuse to stop performing the sacrifice" but rather a theologically valid way to transform the sacrifice while maintaining its focus and impact, as was done in the alleged transition from human to animal sacrifice. I believe that we can argue for a theologically valid substitute for the body and soul of an animal.

We know from the story of Miach and Airmid, and from Alexei's account of Breton herbalism, that herbs are associated with different parts of the body -- an herb for every joint and sinew, as it were. We might say that the body could be created, built of herbs. Blodwedd is an example of a living human being magically created from nine kinds of herbs. We also know from a Welsh medieval medical text, and from Irish tradition, that the body is related to the cosmos in Celtic thought. The eyes may be the stars, sun be the face, breath be the wind, stone as bones, water as blood, soil as flesh, etc. I would argue that through these associations, a living "human" body could be created of certain ritually appropriate plants to serve as the vehicle of cosmic renewal. In this way, the death and dismemberment of the "herbal body" would serve as the living force that is the source of cosmic creation.

The sacrifice of plants would not be invalid as a sacrifice of spiritual efficacy. Plants have sentient spirits, no less than humans or animals. In fact, I would argue that plants are more important than humans or animals in a biological sense, for without plants, the energy of the sun cannot be transformed into food, and no life would exist without them. Plants can exist without us, but without them there is no possibility of independent animal life. The life force of a plant may, therefore, be considered just as pure and acceptable for sacrifice as would the life of a cow, or a human being. From the point of view of primacy, it might even be considered more acceptable, more pure, as they are closer to the primal source of solar energy than we. Individual plants lack only the social construct of the complete human body to be an acceptable substitute for the human being. But as we have seen, this can be attained through ritual.

The question then becomes, what plants would be appropriate as sacrifices? How many, and what must they symbolize? There are several ways we can approach this question. One way is to examine the list of nine herbs from which Blodwedd was created, knowing that they served together to create a living human being. Nine, of course, is a primary and significant ritual number among the Celtic peoples. It is a number of wholeness and completion. I believe that regardless of what criteria we use to establish a list of appropriate plants, they should be nine in number.

An approach we could use toward choosing the appropriate plants is to look at their functions. As an example, plants are used for food (oats), for medicines (foxglove), for fiber (flax), for fuel (alder), and for their mind altering properties (belladonna). We could examine the herbal lore of the Celtic peoples and choose plants from these categories that also represent the various parts of the body to use as the sacrifice. Plants used as entheogens would seem to me quite appropriate for use to symbolize the soul of the cosmic being, for instance, or to symbolize the head which is the seat of the soul, and the vault of the heavens. Food plants might symbolize the flesh. Medicines would serve to symbolize many different parts of the body, as they are used to treat the different organs and body systems. Fiber plants might symbolize hair, or the skin covering the body. Fuel plants might represent the spark of life, but they would of course be used to burn the sacrifice during the ritual, so perhaps they might not be necessary to the construction of the herbal body.

In doing this kind of a sacrifice, I believe the plants would have to be fresh. The life force would have to still be within them in order for the sacrifice to be useful or valid. Going out and buying dried roots and leaves just would not hold the same energies as growing or wildcrafting the appropriate plants. It is not a sacrifice of life and spirit if the spirit and the power of the living green has gone out of the plants six months ago. Lack of spirit would invalidate the sacrifice as a meaningful ritual, meant to connect us with the necessity of an immediate and felt death in preparation for cosmic creation. There is little emotional impact in burning the dried dust of leaves, while the burning of freshly harvested plants connects us with the death of the green being. The sap of life should still run through them, preferably having been harvested in a ritual manner no more than a day in advance of the sacrifice. As with the cosmological sacrifice of an animal or a human being, the plants used must be free of blemish, so that the world when renewed will be likewise perfect in body and potential.

Although Celtic lore regarding plant associations with the body is essential knowledge, I believe that we also have to consider the implications of attempting to sacrifice plants not grown in native soil, aside from the difficulty of obtaining fresh non-native plant materials. What local plants carry the same symbolic significance as the ritual plants of Celtic Europe? As modern Celts, scattered all over the globe and born of many different ethnic backgrounds, I believe we must renew the local cosmos through the use of locally grown plants for this kind of sacrifice. This would necessitate close observation of local plant lore, and the development of relationships with local plant spirits so that we begin to understand how they fit into the herbal body. Blodwedd's creation would be different in Minnesota than it was in Wales, different again in Sydney or Vladivostok. If our spirituality includes a deep and true connection with the land on which we live, we must take these things into consideration and develop a theology of place and of what Gary Snyder refers to as reinhabitation. The essence of the soil where we live must enter us physically and spiritually, must link us with the spirits of the place.

Some ritual would need to be devised to take the chosen nine diverse plants and "birth" them together as one living being, whole in the sense of a cosmic and divine body. It would have to transform them from a group of separate plant-beings into the divine body of the sacrifice, to unify their spirits into one perfect soul. This, of course, is not necessary in the case of animals or humans, because they are already a single, discrete life force and body. The spell that created Blodwedd must be spoken, as it were. From that point, the sacrifice could proceed as the ritual of death and dismemberment, with the burning of the plants to release the spirit-body and its component parts in the act of cosmic renewal.

The next question is, who deals with this kind of sacrifice. In Celtic society, Druids claimed that they created the universe, and through this form of sacrifice it could be said that they indeed do so. Druids acted as sacrificing priests according to the Greeks and Romans who encountered them in Gaul, and were capable of excommunicating people from sacrifice if they violated the laws of the tuath. Among the Hindus, it is the Brahmans who perform these sacrifices. Is cosmological sacrifice really something that can be performed in an egalitarian fashion, with any celebrant off the street capable of playing the part of sacrificing priest/ess? Will anyone who has been ritually purified be acceptable as the sacrificer? Should the sacrificer be one who has not killed in battle? One who has not violated certain laws of the land? If people could be excommunicated from participation in the sacrifice as observers, it would stand to reason that some crimes would certainly disqualify people from actually making the sacrifice. If these things are important, should the one who performs the sacrifice be required to be someone who identifies as a Druid? Someone who has at least studied Celtic lore and theology enough to understand the implications of sacrifice and renewal? If it is an animal rather than an herbal sacrifice, it is also essential that the sacrificer be skilled in the humane killing of animals so that the sacrifice does not suffer unnecessarily. It seems obvious that some training would be required for the effective sacrifice of an animal, at the very least.

What should be the ritual state of mind required of the sacrificer? Obviously there is more going on here than just going through the motions. To perform the ritual without the proper intent and the proper state of spiritual purity would be more sacrelige than sacrifice. To attain the proper intent and the proper state of purity is probably the work of many years of training and meditation, and a certain amount of asceticism. At the least, one must be able to perform the ritual while maintaining the required state of mind and visualizations without falling prey to distractions. The outer form of the ritual must also be done flawlessly, without reading from 3x5 cards. The intent and focus of the assistants and witnesses to the ritual must likewise be pure, although perhaps not as flawless as the state of the one who must physically perform the sacrifice. Anything less endangers the very renewal of the cosmos, if we follow the logic of the ritual itself. If we take this at all seriously, these considerations argue against the idea that anyone who feels like it can perform a cosmological sacrifice, whether animal or herbal, without first intensively practicing both the outer and inner techniques and studying the theological implications.

[Druchii]

98% of humans out there before an animal.
I never met an "animal" or plant I hated.
There are 15 people in this world I dislike. Immensely.
If a predator eats its kill that is nature.
If I sacrifice an animal by taking its life, that is not nature in action, that is me willfully taking a life.
I eat meat, I eat plants. But I am not going to take ANY animal's ( i.e. non-humans) life, for anything shy of self defense.

[ancestral_lee]

If a predator eats its kill that is nature.
If I sacrifice an animal by taking its life, that is not nature in action, that is me willfully taking a life.
I eat meat, I eat plants. But I am not going to take ANY animal's ( i.e. non-humans) life, for anything shy of self defense.

you could say that when you eat meat you are still being a predator but are allowing someone else to do the work for you - think lionesses hunting for the males, early humans hunting in parties then bringing back food for all the group - i dont see how there is a distinction between you killing and eating an animal and honouring the gods in the process and as you say "that is not nature in action, that is me willfully taking a life. "

and aimed at everyone in general = i cant help but feel that there is an odd mindset in people who have posted here where they would never kill an animal to honour thier ancestors or gods or strngthen a working then feast on the carcass and yet they are happy for an annonomous character in a slaughterhouse to do all the work and present them with prepacked and processed slabs of meat in the supermarket.

[Druchii]

you could say that when you eat meat you are still being a predator but are allowing someone else to do the work for you - think lionesses hunting for the males, early humans hunting in parties then bringing back food for all the group - i dont see how there is a distinction between you killing and eating an animal and honouring the gods in the process and as you say "that is not nature in action, that is me willfully taking a life. "

and aimed at everyone in general = i cant help but feel that there is an odd mindset in people who have posted here where they would never kill an animal to honour thier ancestors or gods or strngthen a working then feast on the carcass and yet they are happy for an annonomous character in a slaughterhouse to do all the work and present them with prepacked and processed slabs of meat in the supermarket.

You bring up good points. BUT, I am not happy about it, but there is little I can do about it shy of becoming a vegan. Not going to happen. My little bit was just on the fact that I have a lot more at stake in my heart for animals and for the ones that I have, care for, love, and respect ( as in wildlife and pets ) I just can't find myself offering one up for sacrifice. It's like this. Man walks up to me and has a heart attack, well he dies of "natural causes". If I sacrifice him with a spork, butter knife, cafeteria tray, bowling ball, or even a wiffle ball bat, none of those are natural causes of death, unless you are John Gotti. It's kinda like the mindset that it's okay because everyone else it doing it. Everyone else eats the processed meat, true. But I ain't frying up my goldfish or sacrificing it.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

you could say that when you eat meat you are still being a predator but are allowing someone else to do the work for you - think lionesses hunting for the males, early humans hunting in parties then bringing back food for all the group - i dont see how there is a distinction between you killing and eating an animal and honouring the gods in the process and as you say "that is not nature in action, that is me willfully taking a life. "

and aimed at everyone in general = i cant help but feel that there is an odd mindset in people who have posted here where they would never kill an animal to honour thier ancestors or gods or strngthen a working then feast on the carcass and yet they are happy for an annonomous character in a slaughterhouse to do all the work and present them with prepacked and processed slabs of meat in the supermarket.

I agree completely. I think you show the animal more respect when you take it's life yourself. I know the natives where I grew up tended to offer thanks to the animals spirit both before and after it was killed. If I had the skills necessary to do my own hunting I certainly would. But I'm a bit small to be dragging a deer through the woods, and my husband very much does not want a gun in our home, even if it was for hunting.

I think that as long as the spirit of the animal (or plant for that matter) is properly honored and it is not subjected to undue pain the taking of it's life is a perfectly normal and natural thing. Yes I said natural. The reason why us humans are at the top of the food chain is because we became the most effective hunters, which is what all meat-eating animals are. And killing an animal in honor of the gods is far more honorable than killing it just for sport, which is what everyone who thinks its wrong for us to actually consider making an animal sacrifice makes it sound like. I would never kill an animal just for the sake of killing. I would kill an animal to honor my gods, especially as I would be sharing of that with my gods. Whatever meat was not offered up to them as their portion I most certainly would eat, and the other parts (hide, antlers, etc.) would be put to good use.

[ancestral_lee]

I agree completely. I think you show the animal more respect when you take it's life yourself. I know the natives where I grew up tended to offer thanks to the animals spirit both before and after it was killed. If I had the skills necessary to do my own hunting I certainly would. But I'm a bit small to be dragging a deer through the woods, and my husband very much does not want a gun in our home, even if it was for hunting.

I think that as long as the spirit of the animal (or plant for that matter) is properly honored and it is not subjected to undue pain the taking of it's life is a perfectly normal and natural thing. Yes I said natural. The reason why us humans are at the top of the food chain is because we became the most effective hunters, which is what all meat-eating animals are. And killing an animal in honor of the gods is far more honorable than killing it just for sport, which is what everyone who thinks its wrong for us to actually consider making an animal sacrifice makes it sound like. I would never kill an animal just for the sake of killing. I would kill an animal to honor my gods, especially as I would be sharing of that with my gods. Whatever meat was not offered up to them as their portion I most certainly would eat, and the other parts (hide, antlers, etc.) would be put to good use.


my sentiments exactly. killing and eating are perfectly natuarl things, probably more natural than how we currently get our meat - which is why some peoles views on this confuse me :)

[Khuinaset]

you could say that when you eat meat you are still being a predator but are allowing someone else to do the work for you - think lionesses hunting for the males, early humans hunting in parties then bringing back food for all the group - i dont see how there is a distinction between you killing and eating an animal and honouring the gods in the process and as you say "that is not nature in action, that is me willfully taking a life. "

and aimed at everyone in general = i cant help but feel that there is an odd mindset in people who have posted here where they would never kill an animal to honour thier ancestors or gods or strngthen a working then feast on the carcass and yet they are happy for an annonomous character in a slaughterhouse to do all the work and present them with prepacked and processed slabs of meat in the supermarket.

I just wanted to say, that for the record, I am a vegan, so I don't have that mentality.

my sentiments exactly. killing and eating are perfectly natuarl things, probably more natural than how we currently get our meat - which is why some peoles views on this confuse me :)

and that is one of the main reasons why. Not trying to start a debate or argument as I hate arguing about this. And the reason that I wouldn't do animal sacrifice is that I just honestly don't think I could do it...too squeamish, for lack of a better word that I can't think of.

[Athena-Nadine]

*...shrugs...* Whether it fits your terms or not, I perform animal sacrifice every single day. I do not, however, practice magic. I am an Hellene. Sacrifice, blood or not, is a fundamental part of my worship of my gods and always has been a part of my religion. Killing anything wastefully would dishonor my gods.

For every single ounce of meat I consume, a part of it becomes a sacrifice to my gods--whether I killed that animal or not. The same goes for every bit of fluid I drink, and everything else I eat. My fiance hunts as often as he can. The heart, gizzards, and other innards cleaned from all his pheasants are burned in sacrifice to the gods. Everything else is eaten.

Small portions of all the meat I eat is burned in sacrifice to the gods.

Monk, if the day were to come that you and I were stranded somplace and I had to eat you to survive, you had better believe that part of you would be burned in sacrifice as well. ;)

As far as importance, my food is very important. It's necessary to my survival and health.

Whether it is a sacrifice before a regular meal, or a sacrifice performed for the express purpose of honoring my gods, the majority of that meat gets eaten (outside of the small portion burned in sacrifice). The eating is just as important to the ritual as the sacrifice.

It's the least I can do to honor my gods.

[~ Monk ~]

Monk, if the day were to come that you and I were stranded somplace and I had to eat you to survive, you had better believe that part of you would be burned in sacrifice as well. ;)Nallia, this presumes that you would actually catch and kill me...;) :p

I can't really say much more about sacrificing animals for gods/religious purposes without seeming disrespectful so I won't. Suffice it to say that it just doesn't work for me.

The meat eating thing is a totally seperate issue for me, and I've ranted about it ad nauseum in other forums so I'll spare you all from it here. :D

[Athena-Nadine]

Nallia, this presumes that you would actually catch and kill me...;) :p
Actually, it depends on whether I outlive you while we're starving to death. :lol:

I can't really say much more about sacrificing animals for gods/religious purposes without seeming disrespectful so I won't. Suffice it to say that it just doesn't work for me.
It doesn't need to. :) But, since meat is a basic part of my diet, and I'm going to eat it anyway, it may as well be a part of my offerings.

The meat eating thing is a totally seperate issue for me, and I've ranted about it ad nauseum in other forums so I'll spare you all from it here. :D
*...nods...* I know you don't eat meat, and I know your reasons, and I respect that. :)

[Pandoras]

OK, I'm posting again because I my question/point is STILL not being understood. I am not talking about sacrifice where the animal will be consumed (eaten). And I'm not talking about offering a piece of your filet mignon to the Gods. I am not talking about giving thanks at dinner. I'm not talking about hunting.

What I mean is animal sacrifice where the animal is offered, bled, and discarded. It is used ONLY for magickal purposes, for its blood. It's meat is not eaten. It's hide or bones are not used to make anything. The animal is simply thrown away after.

Let me give you an example. I work in Downtown Miami, near the courthouse. Every morning, they have to sweep the steps of the courthouse to clear them of the dead roosters and pigeons that have been sacrificed and left there overnight. They're "trabajos" done by Santeros to help people win or lose in court.

Or we could just let this thread die. I mean, 11 pages is plenty right?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Pandoras I think we all pretty much answered that question. None of us said we would preform a sacrifice in that fashion. We were just expanding upon the original question and debating the concept of any type of animal sacrifice. Just because the conversation isn't going the way you expected doesn't mean that we should stop talking. I personally find it very interesting to learn/discuss others thoughts about sacrifice.

[~ Monk ~]

What I mean is animal sacrifice where the animal is offered, bled, and discarded. It is used ONLY for magickal purposes, for its blood. It's meat is not eaten. It's hide or bones are not used to make anything. The animal is simply thrown away after.
I understand your point, and it's exactly what you've written here that I have an issue with.

I find it barbaric and weak, to be honest. If you "need" blood for your workings or whatever, cut yourself to get it. I don't feel there's much of a "sacrifice" involved if you don't.

[Grey]

The energy release from the death of the animal could be very useful in certain situations. If required for an extreme situation I would Condone it. As I said earlier however it is not something I would do on a regular basis or out of hand. Lifes would need to be in the balance to put it simply.

[gaduca]

:blushake: put yourself in the animal's shoes , would you want some human ro use you as a sacrifice to meet the satisfaction or requirements of their higher beings? :blushake:

[Immrama]

Noooo Never. I couldn't not ever take another life like that. :( I even cry like a baby when one of my fish dies.. I couldn't intentionally cuase the death of another living being

[Grey]

:blushake: put yourself in the animal's shoes , would you want some human ro use you as a sacrifice to meet the satisfaction or requirements of their higher beings? :blushake:

Want them to? NO. But I would understand. I would do anything in my power to exscape the situation or convince them it wasnt needed, but I would not blame them for it. We all do what we need to do. They feel it is right and if they truely do that then that is as rightcheous a cause as I could ask for. Hate not those who you think wrong you, instead understand them and find the better road.

[ancestral_lee]

ok well the threads original poster seems to be gettig impatient so i will be be quick -

they want to know if i would kill an animal simply to 'power' a working and then discard the body. my answer is no. it not only wastes a perfectly good carcass but also dishonours the spirit of the animal.

its just not a concieveable option in what i do - its not something i would consider, ive already posted how i would do things to achieve a similar outcome.

when i first started out as pagan i have to admit that i and a friend who were on this path together did perform an animal sacrifice in the way that is originally impplied in this thread. it was brutal, pretty much pointless and left me feeling sick for days. ive grown and moved on and now have a lot sorted out in my head as to how these things should be done.

[Pandoras]

ok well the threads original poster seems to be gettig impatient so i will be be quick -

Sorry about that. I'm not getting impatient, just a little exasperated because I feel like there's a lot of bashing going on, so much nitpickicking, especially towards people who are vegetarians or those who simply claim they could never hurt another living creature. Don't get me wrong; I love that my original post led to some real discussion and exploration. I love hearing the different opinions and thoughts; it's my I joined MW.

[gaduca]

before i went this spiratual path i shot a bird with a be be pellot sniper gun and killed it :lookaroun :lookaroun :lookaroun :sadman: may the spirit of the bird be blessed in nature with the green man

[gaduca]

oops wrong thread that was for animal sacrifice.. now dont get me wrong id never do sauch a sing i even apologize to my pets perfusely when i accidently kick him or her

[gaduca]

Are there witches or wiccans who dont celebrate the holidays or those who just cant like me ? :geez:

[ancestral_lee]

Are there witches or wiccans who dont celebrate the holidays or those who just cant like me ? :geez:

wrong thread again i think.

[gaduca]

no im asking a question, cause i dont know if solitary wiccans can celebrate the holidays or those who cant cause they cant get the supplies or something like me

[Grey]

But it has nothing to do with animal sacrifice hunny. Start a new thread for your question would probly be best.

[gaduca]

hunny? i hope you bes a girl :rubhead: :rubhead:

[rain_fallen_tears]

98% of humans out there before an animal.
I never met an "animal" or plant I hated.
There are 15 people in this world I dislike. Immensely.
If a predator eats its kill that is nature.
If I sacrifice an animal by taking its life, that is not nature in action, that is me willfully taking a life.
I eat meat, I eat plants. But I am not going to take ANY animal's ( i.e. non-humans) life, for anything shy of self defense.

You are an trully intelligent man Druchii. :)