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MorningDove030202
August 28th, 2004, 03:47 PM
Please vote only if you claim Reconstructionist. I am trying to determine if Recons should be in my NeoPagan Family Tree.


Also, as a Recon, would you object to being included in a "Modern Pagan" Family Tree?

Thanks.....

Seren_
August 28th, 2004, 06:19 PM
Hehehe...I just posted a huge long waffly post in your other thread that might explain my thoughts on this.

:D

Nantonos
August 28th, 2004, 07:30 PM
I understand the reasoning behind Bonewitts terminology of Paleo-Pagan, Meso-Pagan, and Neo-Pagan:

http://www.neopagan.net/PaganDefs.html

(an essay worth reading if you have not come across it before); I however I don't find the reasoning compelling because all religions change and evolve over time. Its not just restricted to paganism.

So I will find the term neo-Pagan useful about the time people regularly describe themselves as neo-Christians or neo-Buddhists or whatever. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Nantonos
August 28th, 2004, 07:31 PM
Hehehe...I just posted a huge long waffly post in your other thread that might explain my thoughts on this.

:D

Pointer? 'Your other thread' was a little vague.

Edited to add

Never mind, found it
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=1164055

Seren_
August 28th, 2004, 08:03 PM
Pointer? 'Your other thread' was a little vague.

Edited to add

Never mind, found it
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=1164055

I appear to be having a mansize brainfart today...but yeah, that's the one.

*muttering* Give up caffeine for one day an' where does it get ya?

Arg.

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
August 28th, 2004, 09:20 PM
I chose other...I consider myself to be a polytheist and nothing more, not pagan, not neo-pagan.

Shanti
August 28th, 2004, 10:32 PM
I looked at Reconstructionist in the dictionary and the only deffinition is: the branch of Judaism founded in the United States in the 20th century that regards Judaism as a religious civilization and questions the doctrine that the Jews are God's chosen people.

I dont get this at all. Are there other dictionaries with other deffinitions?

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
August 28th, 2004, 10:52 PM
I looked at Reconstructionist in the dictionary and the only deffinition is: the branch of Judaism founded in the United States in the 20th century that regards Judaism as a religious civilization and questions the doctrine that the Jews are God's chosen people.

I dont get this at all. Are there other dictionaries with other deffinitions?

Shanti, the word reconstructionist as applies to other religious paths has not yet made it into common vernacular and is unlikely to be found in any dictionary.

SylverStar
August 29th, 2004, 01:05 PM
Basically a reconstructionist as I understand it, is someone who try's to recreate a pagan culture through modern means.

Morr
August 29th, 2004, 01:13 PM
Pagan.

Fideal
August 29th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Pagan.

MorningDove030202
August 30th, 2004, 07:43 AM
I chose other...I consider myself to be a polytheist and nothing more, not pagan, not neo-pagan.

So.....would you attend a Pagan Pride Day?

Dove

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
August 30th, 2004, 10:16 AM
So.....would you attend a People Pride Day?

Dove

No. But I wouldn't do that even if I did go by the name pagan or neo-pagan. That sort of thing doesn't interest me in the slightest, because my spirituality is a personal matter and I don't see any reason to be throwing it in people's faces, which in my opinion is what events like that do.

Morr
August 30th, 2004, 10:19 AM
No. But I wouldn't do that even if I did go by the name pagan or neo-pagan. That sort of thing doesn't interest me in the slightest, because my spirituality is a personal matter and I don't see any reason to be throwing it in people's faces, which in my opinion is what events like that do.


yeah me too.
i mean, hell - i dont even go to the gay pride parades..

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
August 30th, 2004, 10:25 AM
yeah me too.
i mean, hell - i dont even go to the gay pride parades..

Glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. Though I guess it wouldn't matter much to me if I was. If I was Christian I'd be the same way. Someone's religion is none of my business, the only time I ever asked anyone about their religion, was when they were very obviously Wiccan (her conversation was Goddess this, Goddess that...blah, blah, blah).

Seren_
August 30th, 2004, 05:32 PM
I'm not sure we have Pagan Pride days round here. But I wouldn't go either, not my bag. There are Pagan Federation conventions, but I've never gone to one of those either (not a member for a start).

aefentid
August 30th, 2004, 06:59 PM
I chose other, I identify as a Heathen, not a pagan or neo-pagan.

in frith,
Æfentid

mothwench
August 30th, 2004, 07:09 PM
No. But I wouldn't do that even if I did go by the name pagan or neo-pagan. That sort of thing doesn't interest me in the slightest, because my spirituality is a personal matter and I don't see any reason to be throwing it in people's faces, which in my opinion is what events like that do.
aye, but don't you think those kind of places are good for just meeting people?

Athena-Nadine
August 30th, 2004, 07:19 PM
I chose other...I consider myself to be a polytheist and nothing more, not People, not neo-People.
What she said...again. ;)

I wouldn't go to a Pagan Pride Day either, for the same reasons already cited above.

Athena-Nadine
August 30th, 2004, 07:20 PM
aye, but don't you think those kind of places are good for just meeting people?
I think they certainly can be, but I don't think they're any better places to meet people than the bar or bookstore near my house.

mothwench
August 30th, 2004, 08:54 PM
I think they certainly can be, but I don't think they're any better places to meet people than the bar or bookstore near my house.
well, i've never been to one, we don't have that sort of thing here. but i must admit, i'd go to one if there was... just out of curiosity. :smile:

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
August 30th, 2004, 09:04 PM
I think they certainly can be, but I don't think they're any better places to meet people than the bar or bookstore near my house.

We've gotta stop answering for each other. People will begin to think we're the same person. :bigblue:

But like Nallia said, I can meet people just as well at the local bar or a bookstore...or the grocery store for that matter. It doesn't matter one whit to me what the religion of the people I associate with is.

Athena-Nadine
August 31st, 2004, 11:59 AM
well, i've never been to one, we don't have that sort of thing here. but i must admit, i'd go to one if there was... just out of curiosity. :smile:
*...nods...* I can completely understand that. :) I don't disdain gatherings like that; they're just not for me. *...shrugs...* I really don't have any fun at things like that. I find them all to be a bit...I don't know...too much. I often think that growing up in NYC, and being constantly surrounded by one festival or another, for various ethnic or religious groups, has dulled the experience for me.

MorningDove030202
September 2nd, 2004, 07:50 AM
Well do you all feel that Reconstructionist faiths should be represented at a Pagan Pride Day? Would you go if there were more thing going on that related more about reconstructionism, than say Wicca?

Dove

Morag Elasaid Ni Dhomhnaill
September 2nd, 2004, 09:33 AM
I think that any group who wishes to be represented at a People pride day, should be. I doubt it would change my decision to go, but really I guess it would depend on how I was feeling that day. I've noticed that there aren't a lot of recons in this area of the country, and it might be interesting to see just how small the recon community is. On the other hand, since many don't think of themselves as part of the neo-pagan community, I bet most wouldn't show up anyhow.

David19
February 7th, 2006, 07:30 PM
This may sound like a dumb question, but is there a difference between neo-pagan and pagan?.

MorningDove030202
February 8th, 2006, 01:41 PM
Well, I have heard some people that argue that there isn't but I disagree.

A Pagan is essentialy any "Unsaved person", and that covers quite a few religions. So, for example that can be Hinduism, Buddhism, Wiccans, Druids, Unitarian Universalists, secular humanists, atheists, Reconstructionists ect.

A NeoPagan is someone who is re-creating, or reviving an old extinct Pagan religion and practicing it in a modern way that may not be exactly the way it was practiced in the past. This rules of Hinduism, Buddhism because, for one it never died out, they arn't a new revival of a dead, or extinct religion. It rules out secular humanists, and atheists because those "unsaved people" don't believe in any religion or God. It includes Wiccans, and Druids, because they are reviving an extinct religion in a modern way, (or at least that's what Gardner though he was doing, I don't want to get into that debate here, Ok?) It does not include Reconstructionists because they are trying to revive extinct religions in a historicaly accurate way, not a modern way.

Does that make sence? I hope so!
Dove



This may sound like a dumb question, but is there a difference between neo-pagan and pagan?.

MacEanruig
February 9th, 2006, 03:01 PM
A NeoPagan is someone who is re-creating, or reviving an old extinct Pagan religion and practicing it in a modern way that may not be exactly the way it was practiced in the past.

Dove


Well, not extinct exactly. A neo-pagan is not the same as a recon......and I have objections to both terms, as they both take away most credibility. Neo-pagan and Reconstructionism are terms that smack of the practise of mythology, not bona-fide religion or spirituality.

I am a Scottish (Albanach) "recon", but I believe it is a true path, not a dungeons and dragons faith. I also dislike those labels because the "Old Gods" really never left us, and the path was not closed, we just diverged from it and headed down a different path (some at the end of a spear, but I digress)

The sooner we end disagreement of semantics, the sooner we can work on real issues as a cohesive unit.......as a result I allow the term "Pagan" to apply to my path. Besides, it's a lot simpler to say "pagan" than to explain my path.
:rant:

MorningDove030202
February 9th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Well, that does fit since we are both unsaved people.....

It's not that the old gods left us, is that's our ancestors left them (to be christian). In thoes terms we are new pagans.....

Dove


The sooner we end disagreement of semantics, the sooner we can work on real issues as a cohesive unit.......as a result I allow the term "Pagan" to apply to my path. Besides, it's a lot simpler to say "pagan" than to explain my path.
:rant:

RakliDipity
March 5th, 2006, 08:06 AM
well, i've never been to one, we don't have that sort of thing here. but i must admit, i'd go to one if there was... just out of curiosity. :smile:
That would only be the reason why I would want to go to one...but I suppose it would be nice to see the Recon faiths represented there, if only to show people that Paganism isn't just all Wicca, (I am just assuming there is more of an emphasis placed upon Wicca at the festivals, please correct me if I am wrong) :)

Hangatyr 13
March 10th, 2006, 04:11 AM
Most of the Heathens I know would not like to be in a "pagan family tree" or any other kind of "pagan soup". Heathenry is connected to the neo-pagan community in that many Heathens, including me, were neo-pagans before they became Heathen, and there are a few common interests shared between us like the belief in "magic" and a dissatisfaction with current mainstream religions.

I think the term "neo-pagan" undermines a religion's claim to legitimacy. I remember a conversation that took place a few years ago between myself (I'm an Asatruar), an Ecclectic Wiccan priestess, and a Sac And Fox medicine man with whom I was living with at the time. The wiccan tried to tell me that the Norse gods were "pagan", so it's okay to "barrow" from the old Germanic religion. I didn't agree, and I never will, but I didn't argue with her too much over it, since I thought it was only something that bothered me and other Heathens. Then she tried to tell me that the Hindu gods are "pagan", so it's okay to "barrow" from Hindu. I disagreed asking "How do you think a Hindu living in India would feel about that?", but she didn't seem to care, and niether did my roommate. He agreed with her. Then, she tried (not knowing much about the numerous Native American religions), to say that the Native American gods are "pagan", so its okay to "barrow" from the old Native American religions. Hearing this, my roommate stanchly objected. "Those traditions aren't yours." He said, "They belong to me and my people. You don't even understand them." I agreed whole-heartedly. Then, he understood. This is how a Hindu would feel if he saw someone wearing a pentegram claiming to worship a god or goddess from Hinduism. This is how I feel. On a side note, our Wiccan friend didn't seem to think that it was okay for a pagan to worship Jesus or take communion.

After that conversation, I realized two things:
1) That the "neo-pagan" label is often used as an excuse to bastardize the traditions of others.
2) That the attitude of many neo-pagans is "if it's not Christian, it's fair game." This wasn't the first wiccan or other neo-pagan I had ever talked to.
3) The established boundries of what is "pagan", and so, what is "neo-pagan" are set by Christianity. No legitamate religion should exist in such a state.

The "Pagan" label is one that I will not accept. "Heathen", which I use here so that no one tells me "but I'm a Theod", or "I'm a Vanatruar", is one I accept, but never use around people who aren't in the know due to the pre-existing negative conotations of the word. I instead say "Asatru" or "the old Germanic religion" around people who've never heard of it. "Reconstructionist" is one that I can live without, but I grudgingly accept, because while it is true that certain details of the religion have to be reconstructed due to it's going undergound and being integrated with Christianity during the Middle Ages, Heathenry is a living folk way with it's own people and traditions. It's not some new age "make it up as you go" religion, nor is it a stagnant historical novelty. It's place is in the mainstream as the center of it's people's spiritual lives. "Reconstructionism" is just a phase the Folk Way is going through at this time.

Ishtara
March 11th, 2006, 07:33 PM
I am an Egyptian recon - Kemetic, but not Orthodox. I do not belong to the House of Netjer, or to any other organisation, for that matter.

I do not care too much about labels so I do not have strong or negative connotations attached to either Pagan or Neo-Pagan. Both are fine by me :)

I call myself a Kemetic, but if the people I talk to do not know what Kemeticism is, I will probably use the Neo-Pagan label most often.

Kemeticism as we practice it nowadays is a recent, modern religion, like it or not, and I believe in calling a spade a spade ;)

Even though we are learning more and more about the ancient Egyptian religion though egyptology, it is impossible to know and understand 100% how the ancient Egyptians worshipped and what their conception of Netjer was.

My Gods are very old and would not see Themselves as Pagan at all, my religion is quite recent and definitely Pagan in the modern sense of the word...

Haerfest Leah
March 13th, 2006, 05:06 PM
Most of the Heathens I know would not like to be in a "pagan family tree" or any other kind of "pagan soup". Heathenry is connected to the neo-pagan community in that many Heathens, including me, were neo-pagans before they became Heathen, and there are a few common interests shared between us like the belief in "magic" and a dissatisfaction with current mainstream religions.

And any Heathen or Asatru forums I've been on have some form of Pagan phobia. Sometimes I just don't understand it.


The "Pagan" label is one that I will not accept. "Heathen", which I use here so that no one tells me "but I'm a Theod", or "I'm a Vanatruar", is one I accept, but never use around people who aren't in the know due to the pre-existing negative conotations of the word. I instead say "Asatru" or "the old Germanic religion" around people who've never heard of it. "Reconstructionist" is one that I can live without, but I grudgingly accept, because while it is true that certain details of the religion have to be reconstructed due to it's going undergound and being integrated with Christianity during the Middle Ages, Heathenry is a living folk way with it's own people and traditions. It's not some new age "make it up as you go" religion, nor is it a stagnant historical novelty. It's place is in the mainstream as the center of it's people's spiritual lives. "Reconstructionism" is just a phase the Folk Way is going through at this time.

All these terms get confusing. I just prefer Heathen or old Germanic religion and that's that. I don't care for the Recon title either and even Asatru doesn't even thrill me, I'd be apt to identify with Vanatru more but then again I don't leave out either set of deities.

Hangatyr 13
March 13th, 2006, 09:01 PM
And any Heathen or Asatru forums I've been on have some form of Pagan phobia. Sometimes I just don't understand it.I understand it, but I woudn't call it a "phobia". There are allot of flakes in Paganism, and we don't want to be associated with that. While its true that there are also a few flakes in Heathenry, I think most heathens would agree that the flakes in Heathenry tend to associate more with the neo-pagan community, or with the white supremacists. Of course, we also have a few flakes who are a bit more "insular", but I'm not going to mention any specific Heathens that I have a problem with in this forum. That's not to say that "if you hang out with pagans, then you're not a real Heathen." so don't get me wrong.

Furthermore, I ask the question: Why should we consider ourselves "Pagan" at all? I personally feel more of a spiritual kinship with a Christian than I do a Wiccan because atleast Christianity is time-tested and traitional, not to mention it's Germanized to the point that we share many traditions. I can't think of one reason why we should accept the term "Pagan" except for one: the Christians consider us all to be "pagan", but like I said, a "religion" that defines itself by another religion is not a legitimate religion. It's a denomonation of another religion at best.

There's one final and very important reason that I reject the term "Pagan": Identity. Do you think our ancestors shared some kind of spiritual kinship with the pre-Christian Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Sumerians, ect? No. Heathenry has no ties to any of these religions outside of the fact that they are all traditional, indigineous religions. I understand the fact that Heathenry is a religious minority. Mixing ourselves in with the "pagan soup" is how we will remain one.


All these terms get confusing. I just prefer Heathen or old Germanic religion and that's that. I don't care for the Recon title either and even Asatru doesn't even thrill me, I'd be apt to identify with Vanatru more but then again I don't leave out either set of deities.Yes, I agree, the numerous terms for what is essentially the same thing can be confusing, especially if the person you're talking to isn't in the know. This is why I never use the term "Heathen" around them. If you say "I'm a Heathen." then they already have a pre-conceived (wrong) notion of what you're about, because the word "Heathen" means something very different to them than it does to you or me, kind of like the word "pagan". The term "Asatru" is one which most people haven't ever heard, and so, can have no pre-conceived notions about, right or wrong. "The old Germanic religion" is a good way to describe it to the folk without, I also think that "the old Viking religion" is a good way to describe it, because while it might give the Folk Without a few incorrect pre-conceived romantic notions about the religion, atleast they'll have some idea of what you're talking about.

Haerfest Leah
March 14th, 2006, 11:41 AM
Of course, we also have a few flakes who are a bit more "insular", but I'm not going to mention any specific Heathens that I have a problem with in this forum. That's not to say that "if you hang out with pagans, then you're not a real Heathen." so don't get me wrong.

I'd like to learn more about your opinion in this area, could you PM me about this please? I also have another question for you when you do.


Furthermore, I ask the question: Why should we consider ourselves "Pagan" at all? I personally feel more of a spiritual kinship with a Christian than I do a Wiccan because atleast Christianity is time-tested and traitional, not to mention it's Germanized to the point that we share many traditions. I can't think of one reason why we should accept the term "Pagan" except for one: the Christians consider us all to be "pagan", but like I said, a "religion" that defines itself by another religion is not a legitimate religion. It's a denomonation of another religion at best.

Hmm good points there, I'm starting to think who can say what's pagan and what isn't anymore.


"The old Germanic religion" is a good way to describe it to the folk without, I also think that "the old Viking religion" is a good way to describe it, because while it might give the Folk Without a few incorrect pre-conceived romantic notions about the religion, atleast they'll have some idea of what you're talking about.

Yep that's true. :viking:

Gwydion000
June 4th, 2006, 06:06 AM
I'm of the Celtic Recon/Heathen mold. I focus on old Welsh and Brythonic material, so this would have me following Cymric beliefs and deities as best they can be understood.

Xirian
August 9th, 2006, 08:15 AM
From the definition given by MorningDove, I would have to claim, pagan, but for now, just in study, not completely in practice. I hope that will come sooner than later.

Tim
September 1st, 2006, 12:20 AM
I am a Hellenic Reconstructionist and accept the classification as either Pagan or NeoPagan... but most Reconstructionists I know, whether Hellenic, Celtic, Norse, Kemetic, or whatever, (especially those in Europe) are vehemently apposed to being called Pagan or NeoPagan... they see the word as a derogatory and bigoted term used to insult and belittle those of ethnic religions.

Carla O'Harris
September 1st, 2006, 11:43 AM
Do you think our ancestors shared some kind of spiritual kinship with the pre-Christian Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Sumerians, ect?

Greeks and Romans? Absolutely. They come from the same Indo-European cognate.

Egyptians? To some degree, not as much. Osiris does have some characteristics in common with Freyr.

Sumeria? Again, some, but not as many.

Wolfpoet
September 1st, 2006, 12:35 PM
I don't see myself as a reconstructionist at all. To reconstruct something implies that something is lost or broken.

Myy traditions where never lost, broken or forgotten. My ancestory is real, the ways of my ancestors have been kept by the British people for centuries. The old dane law is the basis for English law, cities and towens still bear the names my fore-fathers gave them.

The pagan traditions of Britain are BRITISH, they where born here or broought here by the people themselves. Their blood soaks our soil, their bones lie beneath our fields, their power still has strentgh in these isles such power can never be truly overturned or defeated. Centuries of Christianity has never been able to destroy these traditions and beliefs. The land itself belongs to these traditions.

Sure they need to be relearned and retaught, but not reconstructed. They never went away, never disapeared.

rook
April 5th, 2008, 07:57 PM
I'm still very, VERY, much in the learning phase of things, so I can't say a whole lot for sure - fact being I'm still learning, I try to stay open-minded.

In general, tho, I guess I could live with the term "pagan". . . . But, the more I learn, the better the term "heathen" is sounding. lol :P

YoungSoulRebel
October 15th, 2008, 08:56 PM
I checked "Pagan", but I only really identify as "Pagan" when nobody really needs to know my specific religion but I feel like disclosing a little, for whatever reason/

Sunlord
November 24th, 2008, 03:35 AM
thats quite well said wolfpoet, I feel the same way with my Balkan ancestry. I don't usually classify myself as pagan or reconstructionist unless I have to generalize with people who aren't in the know. I think I like the terms "animist" and "folklorist" best, to suit my spirituality.