No Christianity - what if?

[Pol]

I saw in another thread, someone wondering what if Constantine, the missionaries to the Ireland and the UK, and other such spreadings of Christianity had never happened.

Honestly? We'd not be here. Chances are we'd probably still be primitive peoples sacrificing animals and eating raw meat.
Not because Christianity is such a great driving force of technology - but because had Rome not spread, then neither would technology. I personally believe that Christianity carried with it many ideas and beliefs that were helpful to humans, though they were not based on Christianity - they still would not have made it out without Christian missionaries. That's just me, though.

[Aine of the Fae]

The need to convert was a driving force for much exploration. But it wasn't the only one. Greed was as well. The Roman empire spread long before Christianity came around, it was in full force before Christ was even born.

[Tangerines]

The Roman Empire had spread and very nearly peaked by the time Christ was born, and well before the Empire adopted Christianity as the state religion.

[Tangerines]

Possibly, Scarlet. But then again, new religions are popping up all the time. I wonder how Islam, if it had ever come into being in a world without Christianity, would appear.

[Tangerines]

Actually, I seem to recall a book full of essays ("What If II?", perhaps) that asked the question about what would have happened if Christ had simply been set free. I think the end result was that Christianity remained just another Middle Eastern faith, but I haven't read the essay in a number of years.

[Aine of the Fae]

Actually, I seem to recall a book full of essays ("What If II?", perhaps) that asked the question about what would have happened if Christ had simply been set free. I think the end result was that Christianity remained just another Middle Eastern faith, but I haven't read the essay in a number of years.

Hmmm.. I doubt that. Jesus was Jewish. Perhaps another sect of Judaism, but not necessarily an entirely different religion. In fact it wasn't until 70 A.D. and the destruction of the temple that Christianity really became a whole different religion.

[Fideal]

Before christianity, other cultures were hardly just grunting primates eating raw meat off the bone! I think probably Roman religion, or amalgams of the Roman religion and whatever the native beliefs of the region was, would be the most widespread in Europe, and probably they would have eventually spread to North America, and technology would have developed similar to the way it developed with us. Perhaps the Roman religion might give way to a more humanist philosophy.

And actually, though Constantine made things easier for Christians, he's not the one who made it the official religion of Rome, that was Theodotus (Theodosus?).

[Pol]

I didn't say grunting and eating raw meat off the bone, only raw meat (for humour).
I know it's not because of Christianity that we are intelligent - but America wouldn't be in existence as it is today, and if it weren't for America and Germany in WWII, we'd be without a lot of the technology we now hold dear.

There are many parasitic beliefs and technologies and such that rode on Christianity, and would not have been spread without it.

I know Rome was around before Christ (it more or less fell after it became Christian), but I was talking about the rome-boosted Christian church which used Rome as means to expand. I think that, had people not had fear of not converting, or the want to convert out of religious reasons and not fear, they would not have readily accepted other parts of Civilization that piggy-backed Christianity.

[Arinya]

I saw in another thread, someone wondering what if Constantine, the missionaries to the Ireland and the UK, and other such spreadings of Christianity had never happened.

Honestly? We'd not be here. Chances are we'd probably still be primitive peoples sacrificing animals and eating raw meat.
Not because Christianity is such a great driving force of technology - but because had Rome not spread, then neither would technology. I personally believe that Christianity carried with it many ideas and beliefs that were helpful to humans, though they were not based on Christianity - they still would not have made it out without Christian missionaries. That's just me, though.

I'll have to disagree with this greatly. Mesapotamia had no Christianity but they weren't eating raw meat...and this is 3000 B.C.E. Egyptians also weren't eating raw meat, they were building great monuments, writing, practicing the arts, farming, all sorts of things like that. And they lived and exsisted before Christianity freely for about two thousand years. Japan is more technologically advanced then the U.S. is and the national religion is Shinto. Although you could easily make the case that they are more advanced now because they were bombed by a predominantly Christian nation but I'm not going to go there.

So in summary, I don't think Christianity had much to do with the spread of technology. It may have pushed it faster farther, but we would surely not be primitives without it!

[Arinya]

I didn't say grunting and eating raw meat off the bone, only raw meat (for humour).
I know it's not because of Christianity that we are intelligent - but America wouldn't be in existence as it is today, and if it weren't for America and Germany in WWII, we'd be without a lot of the technology we now hold dear.

There are many parasitic beliefs and technologies and such that rode on Christianity, and would not have been spread without it.

I know Rome was around before Christ (it more or less fell after it became Christian), but I was talking about the rome-boosted Christian church which used Rome as means to expand. I think that, had people not had fear of not converting, or the want to convert out of religious reasons and not fear, they would not have readily accepted other parts of Civilization that piggy-backed Christianity.

To respond now to your question, I missed this post before I posted last, oops. :)
America would have stronger Native American influences...perhaps entirely. I don't know if other cultures or religions would even bother trying to colonize America, or if they did they probably would have treated the Native American's better. Not so much as a plague that needed to be converted or cured but as a people that could be traded and bartered with and they probably would have shared the land as long as peace was brought but whatever culture or religion brought it....

So I agree, America wouldn't be as it is but technology still would have formed, just slower. Maybe we wouldn't feel the need for the hustle and the bustle of American life, bigger, faster, and now now now. Hmm...don't know. Good question though!

[Pol]

Indeed, in time it may have pogressed - but consider how relatively slowly it was progressing.
As for America, consider: The Native American nations changed very little in technology. They basically lived year to year as they always had. Interesting thought, that.

[Fideal]

Indeed, in time it may have pogressed - but consider how relatively slowly it was progressing.
As for America, consider: The Native American nations changed very little in technology. They basically lived year to year as they always had. Interesting thought, that.

Perhaps they did that because it worked and nothing needed changing? Perhaps they felt things didn't need to more complicated. When the settlers came to this continent, and with them Christianity, they hunted the Buffalo nearly to extinction in much shorter a time than the Natives had lived with the Buffalo.

Not all technology is necessary, or a good thing to me. What have we created? Nuclear Bombs that kill thousands of people all at once is hardly something I'm grateful for. Sometimes think we don't really need anything more, but yet people keep coming up with more and more inventions that either kill people faster or do things easier and cater to our laziness.

A lot of things are invented in China and Japan, and the main religion there isn't Christianity.

[Aine of the Fae]

To respond now to your question, I missed this post before I posted last, oops. :)
America would have stronger Native American influences...perhaps entirely. I don't know if other cultures or religions would even bother trying to colonize America, or if they did they probably would have treated the Native American's better. Not so much as a plague that needed to be converted or cured but as a people that could be traded and bartered with and they probably would have shared the land as long as peace was brought but whatever culture or religion brought it....

So I agree, America wouldn't be as it is but technology still would have formed, just slower. Maybe we wouldn't feel the need for the hustle and the bustle of American life, bigger, faster, and now now now. Hmm...don't know. Good question though!

It wasn't Christianity that oppressed the Native Americans. That was an excuse. It was greed, plain and simple. Without Christian, greed would have still been there.

[aluokaloo]

I have to agree with the whole technology thing, there were many many technologically advanced civilizations before christianity ever came about. Wagons, silvereware, pottery, farming, pyramids, temples and columns are hardly primitive, baths, brothels and the like. I don't know what would happen if christianity never came around. Its hard to imagine. The only things I could figure is that history there might not be things like the Crusades, and stuff.

[Morr]

I saw in another thread, someone wondering what if Constantine, the missionaries to the Ireland and the UK, and other such spreadings of Christianity had never happened.

Honestly? We'd not be here. Chances are we'd probably still be primitive peoples sacrificing animals and eating raw meat.
Not because Christianity is such a great driving force of technology - but because had Rome not spread, then neither would technology. I personally believe that Christianity carried with it many ideas and beliefs that were helpful to humans, though they were not based on Christianity - they still would not have made it out without Christian missionaries. That's just me, though.

LMAO
i love waking up to comments like this..
Christianity AINT THAT GREAT... Humans would have developed quite nicely WITHOUT Christianity (maybe we'd have a little less bloodshed during the Middle ages - Ever think about that? Gods know the Inquisition developed quite an interesting technology back in those days...).

no doubt the world would have been different, but as to "more advanced" socity - I think not. If anything Christianity added to the violence & hate in our modern socity and definitly contributed to wars.

[Arinya]

It wasn't Christianity that oppressed the Native Americans. That was an excuse. It was greed, plain and simple. Without Christian, greed would have still been there.

Yes but what caused the greed? Who instigated it?
Oh, and I'm not saying that Chrisitianity itself opressed the Native Americans, I meant more it was the Christians that did it. The followers, not the religion itself.

[Morr]

oh yeah - withouth Christianity, you bet we wouldnt have the "West VS. East" conflict we are having now with Osama Bin Laden & Co.

Maybe we'd all be muslims and then we wouldnt have ANY terror acts!

[Aine of the Fae]

Yes but what caused the greed? Who instigated it?
Oh, and I'm not saying that Chrisitianity itself opressed the Native Americans, I meant more it was the Christians that did it. The followers, not the religion itself.

And if Christianity didn't exist, the greed would still be there, they would just find some other way to go about things.

Greed is human. A Christian would tell you Satan instigated it. It certainly wasn't Christianity itself, a relgion that emphasizes poverty and self-sacrifice.

[Tangerines]

Yes but what caused the greed? Who instigated it?
Oh, and I'm not saying that Chrisitianity itself opressed the Native Americans, I meant more it was the Christians that did it. The followers, not the religion itself.

Wanting to get rich quick and/or get in good with the ruler of your country, generally.

[Morr]

And if Christianity didn't exist, the greed would still be there, they would just find some other way to go about things.

Greed is human. A Christian would tell you Satan instigated it. It certainly wasn't Christianity itself, a relgion that emphasizes poverty and self-sacrifice.


Aine, hon, youre telling me the Church aint greedy?
Have you seen what the Pope is wearing? All his Pope~Robes are practically woven with Gold threads...

Jeez I wonder what would the poor Christians out there, who need to work 2 jobs and barely have ends meet to feed their families - would say about that. And i mean, its not like the Pope actually WORKS... He just sits there. And lets people kiss his ring...

[Aine of the Fae]

Aine, hon, youre telling me the Church aint greedy?
Have you seen what the Pope is wearing? All his Pope~Robes are practically woven with Gold threads...

Jeez I wonder what would the poor Christians out there, who need to work 2 jobs and barely have ends meet to feed their families - would say about that. And i mean, its not like the Pope actually WORKS... He just sits there. And lets people kiss his ring...

I said the religion itself. The church is greedy, but the church isn't Christianity.

[Morr]

I said the religion itself. The church is greedy, but the church isn't Christianity.


the church is definitly one of its representatives out there.
it leads the biggest Christian sect within Christianity (I'm pretty sure Catholicism is the biggest...).

Anyhoo, back in the early days - Christianity was led by this Church only meaning Greed had A LOT to do with the expansion over the different areas of the world, also - It is known that the Popes had political deals with various Kings & Leaders in the form of - "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours", where as - Once a King conqueres a new area, he is supported by the Church for doing so and is backed up by it, and in return the King orders all the citizens of that area to become Catholic (ie. Forcing them), and allows the Church to send missionaries to convert the people, etc. Also its widely known that the Church would recieve a great amount of money to support their little missionaries (much more then needed) - they would buy land & build huge big great churches, etc.

But ya know...
I'm just sayin'... (Copyrights Belong to - Ben Trismegistus).

[Pol]

As I have said numerous times, it wasn't Christianity alone - it was what tagged along with Christianity.

As for technology - when white people found Japan, it was the 1400s and they were not past swords and wagons. Why? Because it worked. I'm not saying technology is great, or that I support what Christianity, only that things would be a lot different. In reality, we - as in those of us posting here - would most likely not be here, would we?

[Morr]

As I have said numerous times, it wasn't Christianity alone - it was what tagged along with Christianity.

As for technology - when white people found Japan, it was the 1400s and they were not past swords and wagons. Why? Because it worked. I'm not saying technology is great, or that I support what Christianity, only that things would be a lot different. In reality, we - as in those of us posting here - would most likely not be here, would we?


again, i disagree..
there was no such advanced technology in the 1400s... at this time, Europe was just barely shaking itself out of the middle ages... and advancing into the reinessance. They were still using swords & wagons in those days in europe as well as Japan..

I think that the Imperialism may have triggered the development in technology, but certainly not Christianity.. If anything, it was Christianity that tagged along Imperialism. Kings & Political Leaders in Europe were so out to gain more land, conquer and get more material goods from far away lands, then anything... They were bound to look towards developing technological advancements (mainly weaponry).
Most of technology didnt even develop or at least take a big leap untill the Industrial Revolution in England & France, in the 19th Century. And by that time, Christianity had a much LESS grasp on the common people.

So again, Christianity had very little to do with technology. If anything, it used the advancement to spread its propaganda.

[Fideal]

I was thinking about this last night, and remembered something I learned in school last year. During the Middle Ages, the church controlled the education of the people. They didn't want people to be educated. During that time, nothing new really happened, it just sucked all around. Only during the Rennaissance blossomed did art and science pick up again, during a time when humanist philosophy was popular and the church had less of a hold on the people.

(**not bashing Christianity, just the Church)

[Pol]

You could be right, Morr. I'm not sure exactly where I stand. I think things would have gone very different throughout the world were it not for Christianity. It's tagged along with history in one way or another for a very long time.
Look at how Rome started fumbling when it became 'Christian.'
I'm just not sure America would be here, and as such much of the technology that came along with it wouldn't be here either.
Hitler would have had nothing upon which to base his war, and much of the technology gleaned from that conflict would not be. Wars create technology, and a tonne of wars are based on Christianity.

[Morr]

Christianity or not - people would have found SOMETHING to fight about & create wars over.
Believe me.

[Pol]

Indeed, they would have - but that doesn't mean we'd be here.
Take away one part of history, and the entire time-line would be different.
It's not that Christianity is particularly great in terms of history, but that it is important to history.

[Morr]

Indeed, they would have - but that doesn't mean we'd be here.
Take away one part of history, and the entire time-line would be different.
It's not that Christianity is particularly great in terms of history, but that it is important to history.

so?
judaism is important to history - without Judaism there would be NO christianity.
you can say that every religion in history is important. Its true - one thing leads to the other.

But you cant say that one religion is SO important that it wouldnt bring us to the modern advancements we have today.

Christianity is FAR from being about education, advancement & modern.

[Pol]

I agree.


Take away one part of history, and the entire time-line would be different.

Any religion taken from the world would result in (most likely) extreme timeline differences.

It's not that Christianity brings teaching (in fact, while Europe was experiencing dark ages, the Muslim nations and far east were experiencing booms in technology and learning) or education, in fact it often does the opposite - only that without it, we would not be where we are now. That may not be a bad thing - who knows, we may be colonising the moon by now. All I know is that things would be different, and I wouldn't be typing this message because I'd not exist. A world without me? Who'd want it? ;)

[Lunacie]

So many things might have happened differently and thus changed what the world is like today. And who can say which change might have made things in different in what ways? Maybe we wouldn't have the technology we have today, but maybe we would have turned to using our psychic skills and learned to work with natural energies, or maybe you'd rather call it magic. Maybe instead of the science of medicine we'd all be more like the Chinese, using herbs and doing energy work to stay healthy instead of using chemicals and invasive surgeries to treat the symptoms. Maybe this, maybe that. I'm just tired of hearing how "different" the would would have been without the Christian religion, meaning how much worse it would have been.

And I'm really tired of people telling me that without religion people don't have morals or ethics but that's a whole 'nother thread, eh?

[Pol]

There's no reason to say it would be worse - I think that no matter what people are going to try and make their lives easier.

[Aine of the Fae]

Christianity or not - people would have found SOMETHING to fight about & create wars over.
Believe me.

Exactly. All the people who scream and rant and rave about Christianity need to remember that. People are going to fight over something, no matter what it is.

[Aine of the Fae]

So many things might have happened differently and thus changed what the world is like today. And who can say which change might have made things in different in what ways? Maybe we wouldn't have the technology we have today, but maybe we would have turned to using our psychic skills and learned to work with natural energies, or maybe you'd rather call it magic. Maybe instead of the science of medicine we'd all be more like the Chinese, using herbs and doing energy work to stay healthy instead of using chemicals and invasive surgeries to treat the symptoms. Maybe this, maybe that. I'm just tired of hearing how "different" the would would have been without the Christian religion, meaning how much worse it would have been.

And I'm really tired of people telling me that without religion people don't have morals or ethics but that's a whole 'nother thread, eh?

Ethics are evil..... I'm taking a class on Biblical ethics and it makes my brain hurt....

[Grey]

Hey if I had a gut wound Id rather be stiched up by a 9th century Norse priest than a 12th century surgeon. Id be more likely to survive. The spread of christianity was a major impact but technologically speaking it probly didnt affect to much.

[Pol]

Not directly - but would we be in the same sittuations to bring about technology without Christianity? It's not that Christianity is directly involved, it's how things would be without it.

[Lunacie]

But... maybe the world would be better off if we had developed something else instead of technology, eh?

[Pol]

Maybe, indeed. I've often considered how the world would be if technology had evolved differently - or something else entirely in its place. For instance, is there some other possibility in the world besides the digital realm? something we're missing, not seeing or not realising?
Either way, we'd still not be here. ;)

[TYRRHENUS]

Look at how Rome started fumbling when it became 'Christian.'Has someone been reading Edward Gibbon's History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire? Yup, blame it on the Christians. ;) Actually, the problem with this theory, which has been around for some time now, is that the majority of those things which we have Rome to thank for never "fell", but rather evolved into different things.
But getting back to the original question... If there never were Christianity those of us raised in a Christian background would have been raised in a Mithraic background. I don't know how different the world would be in essence, in outward appearance probably very different.

[Pol]

Probably, those of us in America would not have been raised in any sort of religion. We'd not have been raised at all, as most of us come from the meetings of people from different ethnic backgrounds in America. ;)

As for the book you mentioned..never heard of it.

[equinox2]

Pol wrote:

Any religion taken from the world would result in (most likely) extreme timeline differences.

It's not that Christianity brings teaching (in fact, while Europe was experiencing dark ages, the Muslim nations and far east were experiencing booms in technology and learning) or education, in fact it often does the opposite - only that without it, we would not be where we are now. That may not be a bad thing - who knows, we may be colonising the moon by now.


On one hand, some people (mostly Christian Evangelists) argue that Christianity brought teaching and urged people to love one another, allowing technology and advancement, so without it we’d still be uncivilized brutes. (easy to find at many Christian Apologetic sites)

On the other hand, some people argue that Christianity caused the classical proto-science and philosophy of the Greeks & Romans to be abandoned to free up time for worship services and the Bible, which led to the dark ages, stopping development for about 1000 years - so that without Christianity we’d be 1000 years more advanced now. Here is a site that explains that view: http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/history.html#reason

It’s really hard to say. I think Pol’s point that the entire timeline would be different, so anything could have happened makes sense. Maybe we’d have advanced quickly, discovered nuclear science in 763 CE, and nuked the world in 932 CE? That scenario is certainly not better (unless you are one who would rather that the earth be free of humans).

Or maybe instead we’d have established democracies (which had already been around - Athens 2,500 years ago), used science for the good by the 500s, and cured all diseases by 895 CE, then colonized the planets by 1700 CE? Would we be living in comfort today on a terraformed mars? I don’t know.

Whatever scenarios we dream up, we have to keep in mind what Morr and Aine have pointed out - that humans can be greedy, cruel and selfish. We evolved those traits along with love and kindness back in the Pleistocene, and they’d all still be around no matter what religion is here. Any scenario must take both the good and bad human traits into account to be realistic (and yes of course you and I as individuals wouldn’t be here, but people like us might be instead).

May you never thirst-

[Aine of the Fae]

I've been thinking about this:

It's a moot point. IF Christianity is true, the whole One God, Fallen Humanity, Savior stuff, then history wouldn't exist without it. If it's not true, then something else would have taken it's place. Now, what other religion has such a powerful draw?

[Aes Sidhe]

It certainally is an interesting topic. But you can't just get rid of Christianity, you have to go right back to the roots.

Get rid of judeism. "what if" abraham had never been born. There would be no judeism, no christianity, and no islam.

but, lets just suppose for a moment that the romans had never adopted christianity, and had persecuted ALL the christians into extinction. Rome still would have fallen, perhaps even quicker, Europe would have had absolutely NO unifying force. The renaissance never would have happened, indeed there would be no such thing as science, Islam would never have happened, the americas would never have been discovered. Indeed the silk road and the east indies would never have been discovered by europeans.

The inca/maya/aztecs would still be the powerhouse of middle and south america... actually, chances are that China, Japan and the Native Americans would have taken over the world, those 3 being the only truly progressive civilisations outside of europe at the time of the fall of the roman empire. (Nero)

[Morr]

I've been thinking about this:

It's a moot point. IF Christianity is true, the whole One God, Fallen Humanity, Savior stuff, then history wouldn't exist without it. If it's not true, then something else would have taken it's place. Now, what other religion has such a powerful draw?


if thats how youre thinking then where is Judaism in all of this.
there wouldnt be any Christianity without Judaism so maybe JUDAISM is the source, therefore is the true religion. I mean Christianity barely has anything to do with the real teachings of Jesus (which were based on Jewish teachings).

but THEN if you go by that way of thinking...
Judaism is really something that evolved from a Tribal Pagan God..
Y-H-V-H was a war God and the Tribal God of Aberaham's family.
The Genisis stories are Pagan.

so if THATS how youre thinking...
then the acient earth-polytheistic religions (also called Pagan today, though werent known as "pagan" back then), are the true religion since they are the first and out of all of them - Came the history of religion.

Besides -
History could have done GREAT without Christianity. If anything its Christianity that needed History - Since Christianity is a Historical Religion. Its beliefs, Doctrines & Ethics didnt fully come to being all "sealed & official" untill the 16th Century. Meaning, the Church officials kinda played it by ear according to the random questions the common people asked them. HELL - in the dark ages there were periods where there were 2 and even (at one point) 3 different popes (in Avengion, France.. and in Rome, Italy).

[Aes Sidhe]

official christendom is just about as far from christianity as you can get lol.

Mind you, I find this theory of yours about YWHW interesting. Sources?

[Morr]

official christendom is just about as far from christianity as you can get lol.

Mind you, I find this theory of yours about YWHW interesting. Sources?


thanks!
i have books, in hebrew about this stuff.. so i cant really give you sources of refrence...
I KNOW theres links out there, and I'll definitly look them up for you (right after I watch "The Young & The Restless").

Its a known theory, by the way.
After all, The acient Sumerian stories of Gilgamesh and the charachter Adom are directly linked with Genisis & its creation stories. Also, Aberaham came from a Polytheistic worship area. He most likely just took his own Tribal God with him. Y-H-V-H is linked with strong associations to Ba'al (some historians think they were the same diety at one point, then seperated by the authors of the OT).

[Aes Sidhe]

Well, the genesis account gives testimony to the commonality between ancient religions (did you know that the chinese pictographs are based entirely on the creation account given in genesis? THAT one supprised me).

But give me the book references, titles, authors, publishing dates etc. I don't trust internet links as resource material

[Aine of the Fae]

Morr, you're missing the point. I'll try it again:

If Christianity is true, as in the One True Religion, yada, yada, yada.... then all this speculation about what the world would have been like without it is pointless. Because that would mean God purposely sent Christ and it couldn't be any other way.

However, if Christianity isn't true, and Christianity never existed, then something else would have taken its place. Judaism? Not likely. The Jews are not "mass conversion, evangelical" type people. The Jewish religion does not advocate going out and "saving the heathen hoards." Islam? Would Islam have existed without Christian influence? It's possible, it is an Abrahamic religion after-all. But sections of the Quran would be different without the influence of Christianity. Would Buddhism have taken the place of Christianity? Again, Buddhism doesn't have a "conform or die" kind of history to it.

Regardless of your feelings about the religion, the question boils down to whether or not you believe it's true. If you believe it's true, the question is pointless. If you believe it's false, then what other religion encourages such widespread travel and communication with others?

[Morr]

Morr, you're missing the point. I'll try it again:

If Christianity is true, as in the One True Religion, yada, yada, yada.... then all this speculation about what the world would have been like without it is pointless. Because that would mean God purposely sent Christ and it couldn't be any other way.

However, if Christianity isn't true, and Christianity never existed, then something else would have taken its place. Judaism? Not likely. The Jews are not "mass conversion, evangelical" type people. The Jewish religion does not advocate going out and "saving the heathen hoards." Islam? Would Islam have existed without Christian influence? It's possible, it is an Abrahamic religion after-all. But sections of the Quran would be different without the influence of Christianity. Would Buddhism have taken the place of Christianity? Again, Buddhism doesn't have a "conform or die" kind of history to it.

Regardless of your feelings about the religion, the question boils down to whether or not you believe it's true. If you believe it's true, the question is pointless. If you believe it's false, then what other religion encourages such widespread travel and communication with others?


so you are basing truth on evangilism & religous fanaticism.
Im sorry but how can a religion be the absolute truth just because of THAT?
Pagan religions ruled for THOUSENDS of years (dating BEFORE acient Egypt) before the coming of the monotheistic religions. Maybe THEY are true, and the monotheistic religions (specifically Christianity which brought the most havoc & hatred to world history) is a HUMAN mistake.

And please dont call me & the rest of the pagans out there "heathen hords".

The answer is - Christianity DOES exist, but it exists much like other religions out there. Just because it has a loud mouth, and quite a few religous fanatics, doesnt mean its the only truth.

I *GUARENTEE* you that in a thousend years (maybe less), this religion (along with others out there) will fall, and the world will see new religions emerge. Its a cycle. You cant avoid it. History repeats itself.

[Aine of the Fae]

so you are basing truth on evangilism & religous fanaticism.
Im sorry but how can a religion be the absolute truth just because of THAT?
Pagan religions ruled for THOUSENDS of years (dating BEFORE acient Egypt) before the coming of the monotheistic religions. Maybe THEY are true, and the monotheistic religions (specifically Christianity which brought the most havoc & hatred to world history) is a HUMAN mistake.

And please dont call me & the rest of the pagans out there "heathen hords".

The answer is - Christianity DOES exist, but it exists much like other religions out there. Just because it has a loud mouth, and quite a few religous fanatics, doesnt mean its the only truth.

I *GUARENTEE* you that in a thousend years (maybe less), this religion (along with others out there) will fall, and the world will see new religions emerge. Its a cycle. You cant avoid it. History repeats itself.

I'M NOT SAYING CHRISTIANITY IS TRUE OR NOT. What I'm saying is that *IF* it is true, then it would exist no matter what people did. And if it is not true, then something else would have taken it's place in history and we can only speculate what that would be.

[Morr]

you are saying "would have replaced it", as if it should have happened already, and look - nothing replaced it so it must BE the true religion.

i personally dont believe in "a true" religion or not.
i dont believe there is an ultimate right or wrong, and i think history has NOTHING to do with the validity of a religion, especially how long its been around or not.

[Aes Sidhe]

Interestingly enough, there was a historical jewish figure that said the exact same thing. Recorded in both jewish writings and the bible book of acts, I will just quote it straight out of the bible as that is what I have handy.

The one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a while. And he said to them: "Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men. For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody. A number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was slaim, and all who obeyed him were scattered and came to nothing. Adter this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the cencus, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed. And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it - lest you even be found to fight against God."

"let it be, and if nothing comes of it, it was nothing"

I would be willing to put my life on the fact that Christianity will be around until the world ends. (supposing it is possible for us both to live until then)

[Aine of the Fae]

you are saying "would have replaced it", as if it should have happened already, and look - nothing replaced it so it must BE the true religion.

i personally dont believe in "a true" religion or not.
i dont believe there is an ultimate right or wrong, and i think history has NOTHING to do with the validity of a religion, especially how long its been around or not.

That's not what I mean Morr. I'm saying that if Christianity never existed, something else would have filled the gap. I don't know what that something is, we can only speculate.

But if you want to get into the "one true religion" argument, consider this:

Judaism survived because it was culture. It kept a group of people together. Buddhism survived because it was cultural. Islam survived because it was cultural. All other religions survive or die as their cultures survive or die. Except for one. Christianity is not cultural. And yet it survives, and flourishes. And it does so in spite of the mistakes of its followers. Do you have another example of a cross-cultural religion that has survived for 2000 years in spite of a bloody and violent history?

Other religions have become cross-cultural in the last century, but before that time Christianity was the only truly cross-cultural religion.

From my point of view that says something for the validity of Christianity. Do I think we've got it all right? No. I think the teachings of Christ have been twisted in some ways. However it's still going.

But that's just my own personal belief, something that is subject to change, as I tend to be a very flakey person.

My beliefs, one way or the other, do not change the fact that if Christianity is the only true faith, as many of its followers claim (and I'm not one of those who claim that... maybe one day I'll get around to writing what I believe) then it is divinely guided (which I do believe, in a way...) and nothing humans do could truly ever prevent it from spreading.

And if Christianity never existed, then something else would have happened to cause humanity to spread and move forward. Christianity was not necessarily a driving force of humanity. Missionaries often hitched rides with explorers who had nothing to do with religion, and as such, Christianity could be seen as a very, very effective leech.

[Morr]

huh?

Just because some book says the above, doesnt mean it will be there forever?

I have ONE question only -
What is the difference between this book of Jewish & Christian Myths, and the rest of the books of the Various Irish, Scotish, Greek, Egyptian, Roman, etc Mythologies?

I'll tell you -
NOTHING.

Therefore, no holy scriptures of ANY religion or ANY cultures can determain the validity or the remainder of these religions to whatever extent of time.

[Phoenix Blue]

I'm going to weigh in to point out that Buddhism is also cross-cultural. **Smiles** It exists in India, China, Korea, Japan, and Southeast Asia, all of which have their own distinct cultural identities.

[Morr]

That's not what I mean Morr. I'm saying that if Christianity never existed, something else would have filled the gap. I don't know what that something is, we can only speculate.

But if you want to get into the "one true religion" argument, consider this:

Judaism survived because it was culture. It kept a group of people together. Buddhism survived because it was cultural. Islam survived because it was cultural. All other religions survive or die as their cultures survive or die. Except for one. Christianity is not cultural. And yet it survives, and flourishes. And it does so in spite of the mistakes of its followers. Do you have another example of a cross-cultural religion that has survived for 2000 years in spite of a bloody and violent history?

Other religions have become cross-cultural in the last century, but before that time Christianity was the only truly cross-cultural religion.

From my point of view that says something for the validity of Christianity. Do I think we've got it all right? No. I think the teachings of Christ have been twisted in some ways. However it's still going.

But that's just my own personal belief, something that is subject to change, as I tend to be a very flakey person.

My beliefs, one way or the other, do not change the fact that if Christianity is the only true faith, as many of its followers claim (and I'm not one of those who claim that... maybe one day I'll get around to writing what I believe) then it is divinely guided (which I do believe, in a way...) and nothing humans do could truly ever prevent it from spreading.

And if Christianity never existed, then something else would have happened to cause humanity to spread and move forward. Christianity was not necessarily a driving force of humanity. Missionaries often hitched rides with explorers who had nothing to do with religion, and as such, Christianity could be seen as a very, very effective leech.

Christianity is European Cultural based, and the only reason it spread was because Europeans colonized various areas of the world and settled there.

[Aes Sidhe]

I didn't say it made it valid as the one true religion, I am saying that as a person who exhibits wisdom should be able to see the truth through somethings longevity. Like what Aine is saying.

*IF* something IS the only true way, then there is nothing that anyone could do that could stop it from spreading. The way things look at the moment, Islam is looking like the only true way, considering it is now the fastest growing religion in the world.

[Aine of the Fae]

I didn't say it made it valid as the one true religion, I am saying that as a person who exhibits wisdom should be able to see the truth through somethings longevity. Like what Aine is saying.

*IF* something IS the only true way, then there is nothing that anyone could do that could stop it from spreading. The way things look at the moment, Islam is looking like the only true way, considering it is now the fastest growing religion in the world.

Thank you Aes Sidhe! That's exactly my point! I'm not saying one way or the other that Christianity is true. Only that IF (huge if there) it is, no matter what you say or do, that couldn't be changed.

[Aine of the Fae]

Christianity is European Cultural based, and the only reason it spread was because Europeans colonized various areas of the world and settled there.

I assume by European you mean Western Europe, as in Rome. Well then what about the Eastern Orthodox church? Or the Ethiopian church? Also, there was a distinctive Asian church until the spread of Islam.

[Morr]

I assume by European you mean Western Europe, as in Rome. Well then what about the Eastern Orthodox church? Or the Ethiopian church? Also, there was a distinctive Asian church until the spread of Islam.


All areas that were colonized by European [Catholic] missionaries/leaders, and over a few hundred years evolved to fit the local's needs.
The Eastern Orthodox people split from the Catholics due to political differences - thats all.

[Aes Sidhe]

The ethiopians, asians, alexandreans, original brittish isles, germanic, ibernian, greek and hebrew christians were around a LONG time before roman catholocism. (100 years or so before).

In the brittish isles it was the white monks of the alexandreans who spread the message of the Christ, and they got it straight from the hebrew christians, who were the first lot there was. The greeks got it straight from the hebrews too, so did the arabian christians, and asia minor christians (persia area) and so too did the church that sprung up in what is today pakistan (and is thought to have spread even further east into china).

The alexandreans were the ones who brought the message of the Christ to the ibernians (spain) and the brittish isles, and the germanic tribes as well. All of this was going on while nero was busy feeding roman christians to the lions.

Christian missionaries and Christianity in general spread much further than the romans were able hunt them down. So I don't know where you are getting that idea from.

European conquest didn't happen until the european countries were spreading around in the 1600s and 1700s (and so on).

[Morr]

The ethiopians, asians, alexandreans, original brittish isles, germanic, ibernian, greek and hebrew christians were around a LONG time before roman catholocism. (100 years or so before).

In the brittish isles it was the white monks of the alexandreans who spread the message of the Christ, and they got it straight from the hebrew christians, who were the first lot there was. The greeks got it straight from the hebrews too, so did the arabian christians, and asia minor christians (persia area) and so too did the church that sprung up in what is today pakistan (and is thought to have spread even further east into china).

The alexandreans were the ones who brought the message of the Christ to the ibernians (spain) and the brittish isles, and the germanic tribes as well. All of this was going on while nero was busy feeding roman christians to the lions.

Christian missionaries and Christianity in general spread much further than the romans were able hunt them down. So I don't know where you are getting that idea from.

European conquest didn't happen until the european countries were spreading around in the 1600s and 1700s (and so on).


nope.
Christianity didnt REALLY begin its spreading throughout Europe untill the Catholic Church has already existed, untill AFTER Constantine declared Christianity as a valid religion in the Empire, untill the Nicean Council in 325bce. It spread thanks to the fine politics of the Church which offered its support & back up to Clovis King of the Marovingians who was an Arian Christian untill December 25th 498bce. On this date he converted to Catholicism and vowed to spread Catholicism along his Kingdom - and so he did. He conqured most of Western Europe (untill the Pyranian Mountains - Today's border between France & Spain - Aside for the Bourgandi (sp?) area, which was later conquered by his two sons), and on each conquest, he ordered the citizens of those areas to become Catholics. These were Pagans who were forced into Catholicism. Parallel to that, the Church begun on its missionary missions to back up the King's orders.

The REAL conversion and spread of Christianity didnt happen untill after the Church had a firm political ground. I mean, those alexandrians you are talking about and minor Christian cults up until 313bce were prosecuted along the Empire! They had NO real conversion power.

[Aine of the Fae]

Constantine *allowed* the spread of Christianity. He didn't encourage it. It was a later emperor who forced it. Anyway, that might be how it spread through mainland Europe, but it spread elsewhere without Roman help.

[Aes Sidhe]

well, the roman catholics had plenty of people who were not roman catholic to persectute, so the other christian groups had to have been spreading at least in some way.

and, of course, it is very easily argued that the constantine version of christianity is not christianity at all, and that though it became "state religion" nothing really changed for the people.

True christianity has never been "popular" nor widespread. Indeed, it is usually only found where it is being persecuted. (this is most likely a result of the fact that people who are just following a religion are less likely to sacrifice their lives for something that they dont really believe in)

[Morr]

Constantine *allowed* the spread of Christianity. He didn't encourage it. It was a later emperor who forced it. Anyway, that might be how it spread through mainland Europe, but it spread elsewhere without Roman help.


Aine, Constantine used Christianity as a political tool.
it was HE who called on the Council of Nicea.
Do you think it was becaues he was a good Christian?
HELL NO.
He needed a united Empire under his belt - He saw that Christianity was gaining power & becoming organized, he had the vision of the Church Fathers spreading Christianity and giving the Empire a common unified ground.
THATS why he allowed it to spread, THATS why he called on the Nicean Council.

Politics ONLY.

[Pol]

This conversation has veered far from its original meaning. It was but musings at how people wish and wonder if Christianity never existed - yet if it didn't, they'd not be sitting here wondering it, because of the extreme differences in the timeline.

Either someone shift this back on topic, or someone close the thread, please.

[Morr]

well, the roman catholics had plenty of people who were not roman catholic to persectute, so the other christian groups had to have been spreading at least in some way.

and, of course, it is very easily argued that the constantine version of christianity is not christianity at all, and that though it became "state religion" nothing really changed for the people.

True christianity has never been "popular" nor widespread. Indeed, it is usually only found where it is being persecuted. (this is most likely a result of the fact that people who are just following a religion are less likely to sacrifice their lives for something that they dont really believe in)


then if "true" christianity isnt popular and never was widerpsread and is NOT the Roman Catholic & other Christianity sects out there - then I think you just made my point.

Just because its widespread and not "culturally based" - doesnt mean it has something "more" about it that makes it the one true religion seeing as the TRUE form of it never survived to begin with!

If Jesus is the son of God - yet his teachings are lost - What does that say about God, Jesus & their power?
Wouldnt they do something to prevent the true teachings from disappearing, and the TRUE Christianity to prevail over the rest of them which were molded by humans?

[Morr]

This conversation has veered far from its original meaning. It was but musings at how people wish and wonder if Christianity never existed - yet if it didn't, they'd not be sitting here wondering it, because of the extreme differences in the timeline.

Either someone shift this back on topic, or someone close the thread, please.


how can you reach to the conclusion that without Christianity we wouldnt be sitting here?
maybe we would have gotten to this very same point using a different religion/spiritual path?
You cant just make your declaration fact because NONE of us know and NONE of us will know.

[Phoenix Blue]

Aine, Constantine used Christianity as a political tool.
it was HE who called on the Council of Nicea.
Do you think it was becaues he was a good Christian?
HELL NO.
He needed a united Empire under his belt - He saw that Christianity was gaining power & becoming organized, he had the vision of the Church Fathers spreading Christianity and giving the Empire a common unified ground.
THATS why he allowed it to spread, THATS why he called on the Nicean Council.
Was that also why he converted, or is it just possible he might actually have believed in the Christian faith?

[Morr]

Was that also why he converted, or is it just possible he might actually have believed in the Christian faith?

the only writings that tell of his conversions are from Christian writings & doctrines only.
I think there IS quite a big chance that he converted (if at all) for political agendas.

[Aes Sidhe]

then if "true" christianity isnt popular and never was widerpsread and is NOT the Roman Catholic & other Christianity sects out there - then I think you just made my point.

Just because its widespread and not "culturally based" - doesnt mean it has something "more" about it that makes it the one true religion seeing as the TRUE form of it never survived to begin with!

If Jesus is the son of God - yet his teachings are lost - What does that say about God, Jesus & their power?
Wouldnt they do something to prevent the true teachings from disappearing, and the TRUE Christianity to prevail over the rest of them which were molded by humans?

Who said it didn't survive? Neither his teachings nor the true form of the following of Christ is lost. It is just that organised religion has bastardised those teachings and made them something else for political and financial gain.

And on the topic, the world would certainally be a different place. There, for one, would never have been crusades, nor 90% of the european wars throughout history. No colonial powers, quite possibly no industrial revolution either.

[Pol]

Our personal births most likely never would have come about. All of our lives are in some way affected by Christianity - be it through warfare, religion, or whatever, the timeline is permenantly intwined with Christianity. Without it, the world would be populated with completely different cultures.
Where would europe be? Many tribes wandering about, many religions of their own, no unity. For instance, let's say you're half-german have irish. Chances are, your ancestors would have had nothing in common and no reason to even consider one another. The unification brought about by 'The Church' would never have occured. The droves of prisoners and puritans that made up early American colonies would never have happened, because A) The people would not have been criminals, most likely, in that capacity, and B) There'd be no puritans.

The entire structure of the world would be different. Each even leading up to our births would never have happened, because they would have lost a link someplace, therefor making us either not be born, or be born to different parents, and as such not be us.

[Pol]

Who said it didn't survive? Neither his teachings nor the true form of the following of Christ is lost. It is just that organised religion has bastardised those teachings and made them something else for political and financial gain.

And on the topic, the world would certainally be a different place. There, for one, would never have been crusades, nor 90% of the european wars throughout history. No colonial powers, quite possibly no industrial revolution either.


Indeed. And without the wars, the cultures would not have mingled and mixed to bring about what we have today.

[Celtic Solstice]

Whew - lots of good comments!

Morr:

how can you reach to the conclusion that without Christianity we wouldnt be sitting here?

As Pol has elucidated, he is just saying that each of us as individuals wouldn’t exist, and that other individuals would. I completely agree with him. Statistically it is very, very unlikely that each of us is here - just as a lotto ticket has only a 1 in 3 million (or something) chance of winning, one will still win. Pol’s point can be seen easily by thinking of sperm. There are millions of sperm in each "group" (keeping this family friendly), yet at most one will fertilize the egg. Remember that each of us would be very different (different genes) if a different individual sperm had "made it", so running history again with only a tiny change would radically change the history, especially after thousands of years. That’s all Pol was saying.

Phoenix Blue:

Was that also why he converted, or is it just possible he might actually have believed in the Christian faith?

Scholars debate this, but there is evidence that his conversion wasn’t sincere. He didn’t get baptized until he was dying, he had clear political benefits to gain from saying he converted, and he minted coins honoring other gods years after his conversion. Hard to say for sure though.

Aine made a very important point that reconciles Sidhe’s historical points and Morr’s objections to Aine, I think. Aine pointed out that (if everything else is equal) then religions (meme-complexes) that contain a meme (idea) to go and convert others will do better than meme-complexes that don’t contain that idea.

The reason is simple - just like any other evolutionary process, the thing that has the most "kids" will be more successful than the thing that doesn’t have a lot of "kids", and over time will be very widespread. Thus, the fact that it spread so well can be due to the presence of the "go and convert others" meme, and not necessarily due to some divine guidance by some god. That’s why religions like Jehovah’s witnesses do better than religions like the mennonites - both are Christian, but one has the "go and convert others" meme and the other doesn’t. Meme-complexes without the "go and convert others" meme are kind like spayed animals - it doesn’t matter how impressive they are to the females, they aren’t having any kids.

More on memes and meme-complexes is available here: http://www.memecentral.com/

Take care-

(edited to add: )
Equinox

(Hey! I noticed that the computer automatically logged me on under my wife's name. Oh well)

[Pol]

You've got me pegged. Thanks for the input :)

[heartandrose]

I don't think that we would still be primative if Christianity never spread or existed. Simply because Islam came after Christianity and it affected the world, not to mention old school religions other than witchcraft and modern Wiccan shaped us. I just think the concept would be different or else we would have another religion such as Hindu or Buddhism to affect. Who knows.

[Dark Phoenix]

But let's not forget how Christianity influenced modern day Wicca/Witchcraft, not so much in that it borrowed beliefs from Christianity but how it influenced those who became Witch's and used Christianity as a template of what they didn't want there religion to become. It believed that the reason a Coven is described as consisting of thirteen members was because there were twelve apostles and Christ, so even modern day Witchcraft could look very different if Christianity never existed.

[Planetary Eulogy]

Without Christianity, there'd be no:

-- Democracy (in the modern sense)
-- Abolition of slavery
-- Rights for Women
-- Division between religious practice and State authority
-- Racial egalitarianism

[Planetary Eulogy]

There's no need to resort to meme theory or other pop pomo "analysis" to explain the success of early Christianity. The psychological advantage non-"domesticated" religions (that is, religions which do not simply perpetuate the moral values of the broader society) enjoy over religions with a character less distinct from secular society is well documented.

[wolfspirit]

I have a feeling that history might be the same regardless of whether or not it was Christianity. There might be some differences but..it's a very complicated what if question, hehe.

That or there would still be the conflicts between the ancient religions and pursuit of each other.
Either way I think humankind wouldn't be much different in at least it's behaviours.

[Antoninus]

Then it would have been some other religion that would have taken center stage. Probably Islam

[wolfspirit]

yes. That's part of what I mean. That would be the most likely scenario.