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RubyRose
September 7th, 2004, 10:25 AM
Call me strange, but I got to pondering this the other day. What can be defined as the beliefs of a true/tradition Christian. You see, I thought Christianity in itself (not Catholicism) was pretty standard, but then I had a discussion with my mother, who is Christian, but doesn't believe in everything that Christianity holds true. Follow? Can anyone offer up some insight? Having never given Christianity a backwards glance, I've never really known whats true and whats not, other than what I've seen in television and movies, and read about in books. A lot of which is proofing to be misconstuid information anyhow. Can somebody help me out?
Bendithion,
RubyRose

Aes Sidhe
September 7th, 2004, 10:53 AM
the fundamentals.

There is one true God
God created everything perfect
God created man in His image and likeness
Man rebelled against God, the punishment for this is death (both physical and spiritual)
God became man in Jesus the Christ, born by the virgin mary.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies given by God about Him
Jesus was crucified
Jesus rose again, having paid the punishment of mankinds rebellion.
Any who believe in the Christ are reborn spiritually and will exist in eternal Joy when they die.
Jesus will return to Judge the world, those who do not believe in Him will exist in eternal pain and suffering

They are the fundamentals of biblical christian belief.

Aine of the Fae
September 7th, 2004, 10:58 AM
The virgin thing is debatable... the word is a mistranslation. The fulfilling the prophecies is debatable, the prophecies most Christians use aren't recognizable as solid prophecies.

The belief in Christ thing is debatable. Scripture points to ALL being saved, just that those who believe have an easier time of it...

Morr
September 7th, 2004, 11:03 AM
first rule of thumb when you are reading up & learning about Christianity - dont believe anything the church tells you.

cause well..
they like to hide stuff... cause they are greedy...

Aes Sidhe
September 7th, 2004, 11:06 AM
The virgin thing is debatable... the word is a mistranslation. The fulfilling the prophecies is debatable, the prophecies most Christians use aren't recognizable as solid prophecies.

The belief in Christ thing is debatable. Scripture points to ALL being saved, just that those who believe have an easier time of it...

I said the biblical fundamentals... it is all "debatable" lol

DraconisArcanus
September 7th, 2004, 11:07 AM
first rule of thumb when you are reading up & learning about Christianity - dont believe anything the church tells you.

cause well..
they like to hide stuff... cause they are greedy...
Way too many misinterpetations in anything the church has said over the years. Morr you have studied more than I have but as someone who left the Christian church because of all the BS they spewed on me from a child to now, I very much agree with you. Politics and money are all they are now and the teachings and beliefs are secondary.

Peace!

RubyRose
September 7th, 2004, 11:08 AM
Okay, from what's written above, I'm getting the feeling, my mother is Christian, she just doesn't head the words written in the Bible. I don't know, saying your Christian, and that you don't believe that God exists as Christians believe it, but instead believe in a higher power/being just doesn't make sense to me. Tricky stuff.

Morr
September 7th, 2004, 11:15 AM
i think that to be dubbed "christian" you need to believe in Jesus as the Messiah..

Aine of the Fae
September 7th, 2004, 11:19 AM
i think that to be dubbed "christian" you need to believe in Jesus as the Messiah..

Nah, a Christian is just a follower of Christ. No matter what they believe about him... But then again, I tend to go by the strict definition and meaning of the words... And they don't even really have to be good at following him.

Erebus
September 7th, 2004, 12:22 PM
Call me strange, but I got to pondering this the other day. What can be defined as the beliefs of a true/tradition Christian.

You might have better luck actually asking Christians.

ObsidianShenKa
September 7th, 2004, 12:42 PM
Now is when I will point you in the direction of ExWitch.

http://www.exwitch.org

Ask their forum. You'll get some informative answers.

raven grimassi
September 7th, 2004, 12:44 PM
Call me strange, but I got to pondering this the other day. What can be defined as the beliefs of a true/tradition Christian. You see, I thought Christianity in itself (not Catholicism) was pretty standard, but then I had a discussion with my mother, who is Christian, but doesn't believe in everything that Christianity holds true. Follow? Can anyone offer up some insight? Having never given Christianity a backwards glance, I've never really known whats true and whats not, other than what I've seen in television and movies, and read about in books. A lot of which is proofing to be misconstuid information anyhow. Can somebody help me out?
Bendithion,
RubyRose

Being a Christian implies that one believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings. The New Testament is all that remains of what Jesus taught (whether accurately recorded or whatever may be the case). Therefore, it seems logical to conclude that a Christian would adhere to the teachings as presented in the New Testament.

But it seems to be human nature that people pick and choose what they believe in, and what they accept, within the teachings of any religion. That is why we find many denominations within Christianity. The Christian Church began as Catholicism, and from there people broke away into other forms such as Protestan, Lutheran, Methodist and so forth. But even within such denominations people still pick and choose what they accept within the teachings of any specific denomination.

The same seems true within the Pagan and Craft community.

Best regards - Raven

Aes Sidhe
September 7th, 2004, 01:20 PM
The Christian Church began as Catholicism

I wish people would do a bit of church history. The Christian Church began in Israel, and spread from there to greece, arabia, egypt, etheopia and asia minor. From there it spread to rome, and didn't become Catholocism for another 150 years, by which time the Christian Church had already spread throughout europe

Nemesis Descending
September 7th, 2004, 01:47 PM
I wish people would do a bit of church history. The Christian Church began in Israel, and spread from there to greece, arabia, egypt, etheopia and asia minor. From there it spread to rome, and didn't become Catholocism for another 150 years, by which time the Christian Church had already spread throughout europe

Actually, Grimassi is quite correct. The Greek word katholikos (catholic) was used by ecclesiastical writers of the second century to distinguish "The Christian Church" from local communities or from herectical and schismatic sects. So, Catholism is the first identification of what was "The Church" of Christianity. In simpler terms, the Catholic Church was the first "officially recognized" church of Christianity. This fact was nalied down several times in the history of the Church by such people as St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Augustine, and St. Vincent of Lerins.

In Her service,
Nemesis Descending

equinox2
September 7th, 2004, 01:47 PM
Hey, I found my definition of Christianity I wrote down the last time this came up! Here it is:

“Christianity is an umbrella term encompassing thousands of different religions ranging from Jehovah’s witnesses to Roman Catholics.

While nearly all of these religions revere the books of the Bible, they are able to come up with different belief systems by using different interpretations and by emphasizing different parts of the Bible (or even different Bibles, due to either removing books, such as the protestants did, or by using different versions made from contradictory ancient manuscripts). Even if what “Bible” means is agreed on, diversity is still possible partly because the separate books of the Bible describe contradictory religions.

Christianity has always been very diverse, especially during the first 300 years after Jesus, when groups such as the Gnostics, Ebionites, and Thomasines vied for dominance. The Roman church established dominance and was able to marginalize or eradicate all other Christianities until the 16th century, when the protestant reformation occurred. Christianity today is much less diverse than it was initially, but still covers religions ranging from the fundamentalist to the very liberal.”

I've done some research and found that different Christian denomination disagree on nearly every point (like "what is baptism?", "what gets you to Heaven?", "are women equal to men?"). The most agreement can be found on basic things like "there is only one God", "Jesus was crucified", "Jesus is the only way to Heaven", "Hell is eternal torment for all non-Christians" and "The Bible was inspired by God".

In my book, a Christian is simply someone who follows Jesus or what they think he taught. I don't think belief in his death for salvation is needed because many early Christianties didn't believe that (like the Gnostics). I don't think the Bible is needed because many of the early Christianities had different Bibles, as do some of the different Christianities today.

Oh, a word about the link Obsidian gave - that will pretty much only present fundamentalist Protestant Christianity - similar to the Baptists, but different from Catholics, liberal Christians, etc. Also, the site is heavily censored (as I bet Obsidian can testify to) - so it will always look like nice agreement, because sometimes disagreements are simply deleted.

May the sun lift your spirits-

IndigoMoon
September 7th, 2004, 05:50 PM
It seems to me that every part of christianity is debatable. If you ask 100 christians what someone has to believe or follow to be a christian you will get 100 different answers. Maybe there is no way to define if someone is a true follower of anything.

RubyRose
September 8th, 2004, 01:35 AM
Yes, I knew Christianity was the umbrella term when it comes to those particular faiths that are monotheistic (okay not including eastern religions here)

And yeah I probably would be better off asking Christians their views, but thought I'd start here to get a rough idea.

Aes Sidhe
September 8th, 2004, 03:28 AM
"Chrsitian" litterally means "follower of Christ".

If you don't accept Christ (wether God or not) as a real historical figure, you are not a Christian. (but even that is debatable nowadays)

Aelfoak
September 8th, 2004, 04:59 AM
The Bible is a very old book and for all we know may have been chopped and changed over the centuries to suit other peoples needs and may have been re-written at some point, but this may not be true either, we'll probably never really know whay the REAL truth is.

Aes Sidhe
September 8th, 2004, 06:21 AM
well, when we die we all find out.

Tullip Troll
September 8th, 2004, 07:00 AM
The Bible is a very old book and for all we know may have been chopped and changed over the centuries to suit other peoples needs and may have been re-written at some point, but this may not be true either, we'll probably never really know whay the REAL truth is.

It is not a book it is a collection of books.

MheraPai

They left lots of good books out of that collection

RubyRose
September 8th, 2004, 10:31 AM
Aww. So I visited Exwitch.org and haven't really been enlightened any on my search for what truly defines a Christian. I mean I get the basics (which I also received here) and then the well seemed to dry up. Unless confessing to being Pagan, scared em all off? <shrugs>

Does anybody know where the concepts of Hell, and the stages of Birth, Life and Death, fit in? Trying to understand what my mother is all about, religious wise is difficult at best. I mean from a Christian stand point, is there anything else after you die? Or do you just go to Heaven/Hell?

Matsumoto
September 8th, 2004, 10:44 AM
Well I've survived 12 years of Catholic school so I be an expert on Catholic teachings. Yes, there is alot of corruption but isn't there corruption everywhere? I'm sort of a different case though I found my God and Jesus on my own. I don't go to church, I hand around with homosexuals and demons. But then again weren't Jesus's friends all Whores and Tax collecters. He didn't treat them like underlings he treated them like his best friends.

I think Jesus was more human than most people make him out to be. THAT is the one thing that really kept me Christian. I don't think Jesus would ever "smite the wicked" becuase the wicked are his friends. Sure he'd fight the devil, but I think Jesus would know more than anyone that people are who they are for a reason. If you're a pagan and you belive in the beauty of nature and "harm none" then he wouldn't have a beef with you.

Most of the things you her about "Jesus is going to kill the non-belivers" is stuff the church made up to get rid of Peganism back in the days of old. It also helps self-rightious WASPs look down upon people, like the high school "in crowd".

I'm just babling I guess. But all Jesus wants is for everyone to be happy. One thing they probably didn't teach you in sunday school was if you did f*** up really bad, killed people and what not and you Tell Jesus you're sorry he will forgive you. People say its ridiculous for a murderer, a sick person to be forgiven but then again we're not God or Jesus. We don't have the power to grant forgiveness to a murderer on the level of spiritual destination but he does.

Hurr well that's just an opinion from someone who's been through the system. I should mention that I go to a catholic university and have taken religion classes there. I WONDERFUL class to take if you want to learn about how religions form is "Dynamics of Religion" It was an eye-opening class to say the least.

equinox2
September 8th, 2004, 12:06 PM
RubyRose wrote:

Does anybody know where the concepts of Hell, and the stages of Birth, Life and Death, fit in? Trying to understand what my mother is all about, religious wise is difficult at best.

OK, first of all, you will never be able to understand your mother’s religion by finding out what Christians believe – because Christian’s beliefs are all over the map. It’s kinda like if I were a German with an American mother, who tried to learn what my mother believed by asking others what Americans believe. One person would answer: "I know an american and he is an atheist". Another would answer "I know an American and he is a fundamentalist Christian". Another would answer "I know an American, and she is a Christian who doen't think Jesus rose from the dead". It would be better to just talk with her and find out which beliefs (out of all the different Christianities) she has.

As for the life cycle, the most common Christian view is that this short life is relatively unimportant aside from accepting Jesus. Other than that, the Christian focus is on the afterlife. Christians believe that if you are Christian, you go to Heaven, and if you aren’t a Christian, you go to Hell for eternal torture. We could talk about bible verses if you like, but that’s it in a nutshell.

Take care-

RubyRose
September 8th, 2004, 10:37 PM
Thanks guys, for the more in depth look into this.

equinox2, you're probably right. I'll never understand my mother's religious stance, but I believe now I have a firm understand of what she doesn't believe in, and possibly why she doesn't.

Thanks again guys.

rain_fallen_tears
September 8th, 2004, 10:40 PM
the fundamentals.

There is one true God
God created everything perfect
God created man in His image and likeness
Man rebelled against God, the punishment for this is death (both physical and spiritual)
God became man in Jesus the Christ, born by the virgin mary.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies given by God about Him
Jesus was crucified
Jesus rose again, having paid the punishment of mankinds rebellion.
Any who believe in the Christ are reborn spiritually and will exist in eternal Joy when they die.
Jesus will return to Judge the world, those who do not believe in Him will exist in eternal pain and suffering

They are the fundamentals of biblical christian belief.

Meaning no disrespect to Christans, it really is a fascinating tale.... :tongueout

lightdragon
September 8th, 2004, 10:44 PM
Does anybody know where the concepts of Hell, and the stages of Birth, Life and Death, fit in? Trying to understand what my mother is all about, religious wise is difficult at best. I mean from a Christian stand point, is there anything else after you die? Or do you just go to Heaven/Hell?
Well in these "Christian " concepts you would first have to research the hebrew texts.
Right now one book I`m looking at
Deal With the Devil
by Daniel Cohen
Dodd,Mead & Company,New York
copyright 1979
ISBN 0-396-07700-5
Due to copyright problems i can't give no quotations.But this info i got on it is pg.104-107.

But it does refer to a place called Sheol in the old Testments.Here everyone went good or bad. punshishments and rewards were never mentioned. What they did there was not revealed.only guess work. The Greeks also had this concept as well. Anyhow Sheol was a place where people forgot and were silent. After a time this changed to a place of punishment. especially in the Book of Enoch. After a time the concepts changed to what we see today.

A good link for Sheol isJewishEncyclopedia-Sheol (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=614&letter=S&search=sheol)

tygherrayn
September 9th, 2004, 04:14 AM
The Bible is a very old book and for all we know may have been chopped and changed over the centuries to suit other peoples needs and may have been re-written at some point, but this may not be true either, we'll probably never really know whay the REAL truth is.


Infact we -do- know that it was changed. The King James version of the bible was altared to suit his most excellent majesty's views on many things ... not the least of which was the rights and treatment of women.

lightdragon
September 9th, 2004, 08:00 PM
Infact we -do- know that it was changed. The King James version of the bible was altared to suit his most excellent majesty's views on many things ... not the least of which was the rights and treatment of women.
They messed with the bible so badly it wasn`t funny. The messing of the bible can go back to about to about 500 B.C.E. when the Babylonians conquered Isreal. now there was a show on PBS channel 13 in the states. which examined some sort of evidence that the Jewish nation had a Goddess. Ashura I believe. This hebrew Goddess was similar to that of the Greek Demeter. So this is how far back we are talking. What the hebrew rabbi's did during the occupation all the way up to the first centuries of Christian movement where a lot of manuscripts were burned or locked away or rewritten.

RubyRose
September 10th, 2004, 12:07 AM
Yeah I know they've messed with the bible, I also know that they took the 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' a little too far, or was that just added in later too?

It's rather confusing.

tygherrayn
September 10th, 2004, 12:19 AM
Oooh .. that's a sore spot for me. My best friend's brother in law tried to pull that on us once. Both of us are Witches. Now, apparently, and I'm not completely certain but I do vaguely remember it saying something about that not being the originaly meaning of the phrasing in the bible, but subsequent translations have turned it into that.

RubyRose
September 10th, 2004, 12:29 AM
Oooh .. that's a sore spot for me. My best friend's brother in law tried to pull that on us once. Both of us are Witches. Now, apparently, and I'm not completely certain but I do vaguely remember it saying something about that not being the originaly meaning of the phrasing in the bible, but subsequent translations have turned it into that.

Ah, okay, I thought that might have been how it went.

CleftOfLight
September 12th, 2004, 07:29 AM
I was raised Roman Catholic so I dont think I could help you.I know people that are christain,and they seem very nice people.Except for three of them are a little out there for me.But hey who am I to judge.I am no one.
well good luck with your search.

RubyRose
September 12th, 2004, 08:04 AM
I was raised Roman Catholic so I dont think I could help you.I know people that are christain,and they seem very nice people.Except for three of them are a little out there for me.But hey who am I to judge.I am no one.
well good luck with your search.

Thanks.

blueiris
September 12th, 2004, 09:32 AM
Yeah I know they've messed with the bible, I also know that they took the 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' a little too far, or was that just added in later too?

It's rather confusing.

What I heard was that King James was rather afraid of witches, and so when he was translating the Bible over, he changed 'thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live' to 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.'

RubyRose
September 14th, 2004, 11:26 AM
What I heard was that King James was rather afraid of witches, and so when he was translating the Bible over, he changed 'thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live' to 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.'

Ah ... but ... that's that so wrong. :(

equinox2
September 14th, 2004, 05:35 PM
tygherrayn wrote:

Now, apparently, and I'm not completely certain but I do vaguely remember it saying something about that not being the originaly meaning of the phrasing in the bible, but subsequent translations have turned it into that.

Actually, I think that the common translation is OK here (not in some other places). We have to look at the context and see if that is indeed something that fits. As the entire old testament shows, the ancient Israelites condemned all other religions as completely evil. The condemnation of all other religions is the main theme of the whole old testament. When they wrote what we translate as “witch”, they meant “someone who uses divination or spells of another religion”, and used that to designate someone of another religion.

Thus, if we could transport a Wiccan back there, they’d call’em a witch. There is no lack of vicious stuff in the Bible, including decapitations, mass murders, infanticide, genocide, and such, all ordered by God or done by God (if you want verses I can supply them). Calling for a person’s death because they are of another religion is quite standard in the Bible, and even if that one verse didn’t exist, all the other ones still would exist.

So I wouldn’t work too hard to explain it away. That appears to be what they meant, and it’s very similar to many other parts of the Bible. Here is one example from the Bible, Deuteronomy chapter 13:



If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.


Take care-