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slvr_phoenix
August 21st, 2001, 03:44 PM
Okay, I'll probably be clubbed into a barely discenrable pulp for this, but I have to say, what is so cool about using the word womyn instead of woman? I think it's silly.

I mean first off, a woman could argue things like, "woman is more than man", or ,"man is an incomplete woman". Which would leave men relatively defenseless because that's a hard statement to argue against with woman having more letters and all.

Instead though, we see womyn. (Or worse, wymyn.) To me, that just looks like a visible portrayal of penis envy, even to the point of losing their precious e (and even o) which to me look visibly like a vagina.

So just why would they commit this visual attrocity to themselves?

I think it's silly. Maybe that's just me though. In the spirit of fairness, I'd like to hear what you all think. I've given my opinion, so what's yours?

As a side note, in my opinion men who want male-empowerment should use myn instead of men for the very same reasons given above. Personally, I like min better because it's even more phallic, but min. is also a commonly accepter abbreviation for minimum, which has a negative impact on what the man would be trying to achive. So that doesn't work so well.

And as a final piece of self-defense that my friend Justin Case advised me to provide, I do believe in equality of all people and empowerment of all people, each for their individual merits. This thread has nothing to do with me being a sexist. It has to do with me just not able to make any sense of why a woman would perfer to use the word womyn.

Illuminatus
August 21st, 2001, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by slvr_phoenix
And as a final piece of self-defense that my friend Justin Case advised me to provide, I do believe in equality of all people and empowerment of all people, each for their individual merits. This thread has nothing to do with me being a sexist. It has to do with me just not able to make any sense of why a woman would perfer to use the word womyn.

This disclaimer goes for me too. They will probably end up flaming you anyway, but don't worry because I have your back!

You know my feeling on the word, I think it just serves to alienate non-womyn, whether they be men, women, or whatever.

- Illuminatus

Earth Walker
August 21st, 2001, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by slvr_phoenix
Okay, I'll probably be clubbed into a barely discenrable pulp for this, but I have to say, what is so cool about using the word womyn instead of woman? I think it's silly.

I mean first off, a woman could argue things like, "woman is more than man", or ,"man is an incomplete woman". Which would leave men relatively defenseless because that's a hard statement to argue against with woman having more letters and all.

Instead though, we see womyn. (Or worse, wymyn.) To me, that just looks like a visible portrayal of penis envy, even to the point of losing their precious e (and even o) which to me look visibly like a vagina.

So just why would they commit this visual attrocity to themselves?

I think it's silly. Maybe that's just me though. In the spirit of fairness, I'd like to hear what you all think. I've given my opinion, so what's yours?

As a side note, in my opinion men who want male-empowerment should use myn instead of men for the very same reasons given above. Personally, I like min better because it's even more phallic, but min. is also a commonly accepter abbreviation for minimum, which has a negative impact on what the man would be trying to achive. So that doesn't work so well.

And as a final piece of self-defense that my friend Justin Case advised me to provide, I do believe in equality of all people and empowerment of all people, each for their individual merits. This thread has nothing to do with me being a sexist. It has to do with me just not able to make any sense of why a woman would perfer to use the word womyn.

It is spelled Womyn, or Wimmin, etc., because "woman" as
used by bible dust snorting mainstream, means "of man".
What a crock! The diminutive of Woman is man.
Penis Envy? :sick: Not! Whether you or ANY other man admits it
or not, you all suffer from Vagina envy....not to mention total
fear & hatred of Vaginas! :rolleyes:

Lilu
August 21st, 2001, 04:51 PM
I am a woman, and I spell it woman. I think any other way is just stupid. But that's my opinion.

I was going to say more on it, but I'm in a really b**chy mood and don't feel like getting into the whole debate. :crazy:

Lilu

Xois
August 21st, 2001, 05:01 PM
Ok, my only rebuttal is for all those who think that womyn or any other variant is "silly" is to check out the follow feminist critical theorists

Julia Krestiva
Helen Cisoux


and here is my reasoning

There is an inherent underlying power structure to language. For more on this see Foucault or Chomski...

The move toward the semiotic (or music of the text) in language is because women have been strictly shut out of participating within the language power structure (its now just beginning to shift)--becuase they were shut out of formal educational opportunities really up until the 40s (the initial shift coming from the Rosie the Riviter area)--without formal educational opportunities, the literary cannon in most cultures (including western) has a greater amount of male writers...

There are several instances where the use of language is used to enforce gender roles or cultural roles...for example, the spanish word for wife also means handcuff (esposa) whereas esposo (husband) has no other meaning...

Or actor or actress---why does the "feminine" form need an added suffix...but the word was an afterthought

Or look at the different between Master and Mistress --Master means lord, Mistress means runner of a whore house.

Look at german...Junge means boy (Der Junge --Der is a masculine pronoun) But look at Maedchen (young girl) (DAS Maedchen) Das is a neuter pronoun...

Now before you say "well thats just language," remember how much of every day (especially here) we spend using that language, letting it define us and using it define others and shape our reality.

Before we can have true gender equity, we have to change the way we use language...and we have to change the way language shapes our reality.

In many ways, it starts there

Now back to womin or womyn...Although I don't use these forms myself, the are an integeral part, i believe our shifiting our conciousness...now they may eventually fall out of fashion, but they will leave their mark on our texts, and that is the important thing!

I mean look how we as Pagans and Witches shape power with language (through chants etc...) Creating our will and voiceing to make it real...this is the same thing...its a sort of magick (I think anyway...)

Cheers
Xois

Illuminatus
August 21st, 2001, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Mystique


It is spelled Womyn, or Wimmin, etc., because "woman" as
used by bible dust snorting mainstream, means "of man".
What a crock! The diminutive of Woman is man.
Penis Envy? :sick: Not! Whether you or ANY other man admits it
or not, you all suffer from Vagina envy....not to mention total
fear & hatred of Vaginas! :rolleyes:

Yes, but don't you see, that the new word you create.. Womyn, Wymyn, wimmyn, whatever.. will not replace the old one.

Rather, it will be a whole new word with its own unique and separate meaning, referring only to the womyn who use it! Effectively, it will take on the meaning of "a woman who is a feminist"... it will be used to discern normal women from feminazis.

Your best hope for eqality is to change what a Woman is (or percieved as) so it is clear that the sexist entemology of the word has been outmoded. You can't change the history, that is done. But you can change what connotation the word Woman means in the next century. But it must be done thorugh example, not linguistics.

Probably the best thing you should do if you want to erase gender from language is to kill the french. You can't use a noun in that language without enslaving it and its meaning to one of the genders!

Also, I like vaginas very much! To say that all men hate vaginas is as ridiculous as saying that all women suffer from penis envy! Freud is Sooo passe, pheonix.

- Ill

Earth Walker
August 21st, 2001, 06:29 PM
quote:

"it will be used to discern normal women from feminazis"

If you were only HALF as funny as you are obnoxious and
stupid, Mr. Rush Limberger. :rolleyes:

Illuminatus
August 21st, 2001, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Mystique
quote:

"it will be used to discern normal women from feminazis"

If you were only HALF as funny as you are obnoxious and
stupid, Mr. Rush Limberger. :rolleyes:

OK, now I'm being bashed!!! I may be crude in the way I say things and apply labels, but I have never resorted to wholesale insults. An apology is in order.

- Illuminatus

Earth Walker
August 21st, 2001, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus


OK, now I'm being bashed!!! I may be crude in the way I say things and apply labels, but I have never resorted to wholesale insults. An apology is in order.

- Illuminatus

Wish in one hand & poop in the other....and see what fills
up first.

Xois
August 21st, 2001, 07:03 PM
Probably the best thing you should do if you want to erase gender from language is to kill the french. You can't use a noun in that language without enslaving it and its meaning to one of the genders!

The gender of a noun in a foreign language (including the german I quoted above) is NOT the same as the ENGENDERED qualities that foster sterotypes!

Lets not over simplify

Creating new words, new definitions is embodied in the natural evolution of language! Nothing wrong with it, or the new associations and connotations that it creates...

and although I don't agree with Mystique bashing you (and I don't really think she did, actually), do not quote from those whom you don't not wish to be seen as associated with...

Tigerwallah
August 21st, 2001, 08:46 PM
I can live with that. Maybe one day we'll recruit all of the women, and there will only be wymyn left.

ladyrowan
August 21st, 2001, 08:51 PM
OK, new recruit here. :bigredgri

BB

Earth Walker
August 21st, 2001, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Tigerwallah
I can live with that. Maybe one day we'll recruit all of the women, and there will only be wymyn left.


:sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

ladyrowan
August 21st, 2001, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by ladyrowan
OK, new recruit here. :bigredgri

BB

And I've changed my title to celebrate :sunny:

BB

Earth Walker
August 21st, 2001, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by ladyrowan


And I've changed my title to celebrate :sunny:

BB

I changed my title too. :sunny:

bloodstone20
August 21st, 2001, 09:17 PM
What of the Anti-Feminist Women?

And FYI, Vagina envy is everywhere. Your wages, your promotions, your life ... all these can be drastically affected if you are a women and most often for the former to negativly.

And also FYI, Illuminatus, she wasn't bashing. Tho she is probably going to get moderated, she was saying (i think) that more often than not, she finds you posts unhelpful and/or closedminded. I am not saying I do, just trying to help you understand.

Earth Walker
August 21st, 2001, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by bloodstone20
What of the Anti-Feminist Women?

And FYI, Vagina envy is everywhere. Your wages, your promotions, your life ... all these can be drastically affected if you are a women and most often for the former to negativly.

And also FYI, Illuminatus, she wasn't bashing. Tho she is probably going to get moderated, she was saying (i think) that more often than not, she finds you posts unhelpful and/or closedminded. I am not saying I do, just trying to help you understand.

What of the Anti-Feminist Women?

Let the blind lead the blind........but there is always hope for them.

bloodstone20
August 21st, 2001, 09:24 PM
i'll change mine too...

Tigerwallah
August 21st, 2001, 09:32 PM
I am womyn. Here me roar.

Earth Walker
August 21st, 2001, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by bloodstone20
i'll change mine too...

Now, you need a Ms. Piggy avatar. :)

bloodstone20
August 21st, 2001, 09:58 PM
okie dokie... now we can all get back On topic.

I like womyn. The word, that is. To me it means that you're more than a woman. Not more, in the sense of better, but that you stand for things and you won't keep silent about them.

And before somebody brings up penis envy, i am male. All male. From my top to bottom. So there! ;););)

Kaylara
August 21st, 2001, 10:06 PM
I consider myself a feminist. I don't use the word Womyn, Wimmin, or anything else like that. I agree that changing the spelling, does not change the meaning of the original word, and actually becomes its own term. MHO.

Kaylara

Tigerwallah
August 21st, 2001, 10:09 PM
I agree that it does not change the original meaning, but what it does do is serve as a symbol that we do not embrace our subjugation in history.

bloodstone20
August 21st, 2001, 10:19 PM
would a new deffinition be so bad?

Kaylara
August 21st, 2001, 10:21 PM
It's not about subjegation... I don't accept that... But rather than coming up with a new word to describe how women should be percieved, we have to make the original word mean something else. Otherwise, the people who say that they are Womyn just stigmatizing themselves, and not changing anything.

Kaylara

Earth Walker
August 21st, 2001, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by Illuminatus


OK, now I'm being bashed!!! I may be crude in the way I say things and apply labels, but I have never resorted to wholesale insults. An apology is in order.

- Illuminatus

Illuminatus: You should never try to have a battle of wits
with me.
I don't like to fight unarmed people. 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

loopy
August 21st, 2001, 10:57 PM
I don't have a problem with anyone using variations on spellings if they want. *shrug* Whatever makes your boat float and all that.

Personally, I don't see a need for it. It's in the eye of the beholder -- I don't think the word woman stands for anything weak or stereotypical or anything if the woman bearing the word doesn't feel it so. At the same time, another woman or man might disagree. The same as a wymyn might feel her label is more empowering than the prior, and others might disagree.

Who the heck cares what other people think?

I think it's been shown that over time, women and wymyn alike have been coming together to change things and make differences, and I hope it continues to happen no matter how they spell themselves, you know? Women and wymyn unite! :D:D

Semele
August 21st, 2001, 11:07 PM
Is there really nothing better to discuss than the spelling of a word???

What difference does it make I ask??

I you like it spelled womyn then so be it. If you prefere woman...so be that as well!

Tigerwallah
August 21st, 2001, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by Kaylara
It's not about subjegation... I don't accept that... But rather than coming up with a new word to describe how women should be percieved, we have to make the original word mean something else. Otherwise, the people who say that they are Womyn just stigmatizing themselves, and not changing anything.

Kaylara

K, I completely agree with you in theory. In practice, however, there are enough women (perhaps they don't exist in this community) who would do nothing to help change the meaning. In my life, I have known more women who believe that they are the weaker sex. It's frightening. In order to change the definition of woman, we would all have to be on the same page. I just don't see the likelyhood of that.

mol
August 21st, 2001, 11:14 PM
SITE GOD MODE

No Bashing of other community members is allowed here.

Refer to rule #2.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?&threadid=5305

BrightStar
August 22nd, 2001, 02:38 AM
Hi all!
I like vaginas!!:) Men spend nine months trying to get out of one,and the rest of their lives trying to get back in!lol
People can be called whatever they want,as far as I'm concerned.They can spell whatever they want to be called,however they want.I try to be polite,so I'll call you whatever ya want.
I hear ya about the actor/actress thing.I never understood that.Usually there's a gender neutral term one can use for one's occupation.Mail carrier took me a while though,sounded too much like someone carrying a disease!lol
Peace and Love
BrightStar

Sequoia
August 22nd, 2001, 06:27 AM
ok, let's face it. Most societies on this planet differentiate between male and female.

heck, in Japanese "atashi" is "me (feminine)" whereas "watashi" is "me (masculine OR feminine)."

Woman, Womyn, etc. . . I really don't see the need to make a new word. When I say I am a WOMAN, I feel PROUD. I don't need to give myself a new name to show that I'm a new kind of person. . .I just need to be that kind of person. A title is nothing without something behind it. I personally think (I"m not saying anyone here is doing so, this is just my opinion and like always I could be wrong) that some women use the different spellings almost as a crutch, kind of with the philosophy of "ooh those poor women. . . if only they were true WOMYN, then they wouldn't feel so bad about themselves. . . " . . . imo. . .that's a bunch of. . . silly. . ideas. I mean, ok. Titles can make a difference in self esteem, and if that's what it takes well then heck yes go for it. But I don't personally feel it needs to be done. What DOES need to be done is to get people to stop using terms like "woman" and "girl" as derogotory things. I mean, next thing you know just when everyone feels wonderful about being called a womyn, some idiot is going to come along going "hahaha you bunch of morons, you're just a womYn!! hah! yo'ur enot even a WOMAN! looser!" That's just how the world is. Isn't feminism about being accepted as an equal and having rights and all that? What about the right not to be considered derogitory?

Forms, Questionaires, DR's surveys, everything will always say "male" "female" or "man" "woman" "boy" "girl". . . I see nothing wrong with being a woman. It's in those idiot and looser's minds, those people who use "woman" as a derogitory term. There's no need to rename yourself. . . there is a need to get people to stop doing these stupid things. Nobody consideres it ok to, in spite, call a darker-skinned person "hey you, boy." or "you, the negro" polite or even halfway so, right? Why should it be ok for people to go "hey you, woman?" Al Bundy should be thrown off a cliff, IMO.

. . . forgive the incoherent ranting, it's 3am, I"m hungry, exhausted, moody, and have a darn big mouth when it comes to my own opinion.

want to emphasize: this has been my opinion. I am neither telling anyone here that they're morons or stupid or wrong, nor am I saying mine is the only way. I could most definately be wrong, I'm not the end-all be-all. I just happen to have a loud mouth.

and so, before I confuse you all any more, I'm off! Dreams await.

Tigerwallah
August 22nd, 2001, 09:05 AM
It's the definition, not the differentiation. Woman means
"[Middle English, from Old English wifman, from wif woman, wife + man human being, man]" from Merriam Webster's Collegate dictionary. I guess, than, in the most literal sense I am not a woman I am not a wife nor am I attached to a man.

So, I'll stick with Womyn.

Lucidia
August 22nd, 2001, 09:18 AM
*le sigh*

neverending fight for supremacy.

if these FEMALES (sorry i'm sure that word is offensive to femanists too since it has "male" in it) aren't sitting around saying their better than men, they're sitting around saying that they are "smarter" or more "liberated" or just "better" because they are "womyn" and not "women"

hmm... lets look at your chromosomes or something like that.

XX or XY

any other variation would cause genetic abnormalities.

and as far as the bible, it wasn't written in english anyway, and who says that it's the "real" creational story, so why give two cents of worth to it? so what if it's anti-woman? don't follow it or pay mind to it then, we have no more proof that "god" created man and then "woman", than we have proof that there is a god at all.

so we come down to this age old battle... who is better, who has it easier, who deserves more credit, etc.

male or female or hermaphrodite or androgenous or transgender...

are we NOT ALL HUMAN BEINGS?

i think, in all the glory that is created by the focus of so many "groups" that claim to fight for equal rights but tend instead to claim that they are in some way better, and therefore act REALLY rude to anyone who doesn't agree with their "enlightened" opinions.

Whine, and fight, and continue to waste your energies denying the pure and simple truth.

We are all human beings, we have gender, which ONLY serves it's purpose in the ROLE of REPRODUCTION.

I don't care what you believe, how you choose to spell your gender, and mind you your gender being something that you are FORCED to live with, no matter how you spell it, or live with it.

Spelling woman as womyn doesn't change ANYTHING.

all you are doing is trying to, in my opinion, achieve some kind of superiority, or put yourself in a segregated group, because you're "too good" and "so much more enlightned" than the rest of us.

People aren't gonna like you, no matter what reproductive organs you have. They are gonna find SOME way to dislike you, no matter what. You can say, that all the men in the world are trying to supress you. You can say, that women who aren't rocking the god darn boat are "stupid" or "blind".

I'm perfectly happy the way things are. I live in a country where I for the most part, have pretty equal rights. I'll admit there are places where things aren't nearly as balanced.

And in SO many cases, things are actually leaning in favor towards women in general. Ever seen a man get custody of a child and the WOMAN has to pay child support?

I am totally not a feminist. In all honesty, I hate ALL people.

I espeically hate people that think they are BETTER than I am, or SMARTER than I am, because they believe in something that I don't.

I am more than happy to live my life as a HUMAN, since that's all I really can do. You cannot escape what you are, cause even if you had a sex change operation, your genes are gonna remain the same.

But by all means, continue to insult me, and all the other women who think like I do. Continue to make yourself the center of all the negative attention that you can muster, by trying to accomplish some twisted goal. And believe me, i'm not saying it's wrong to want equality, or the same rights as other people.

I just think going so far as to change the spelling of your gender, because you are so utterly disgusted by the opposite sex, that you refuse to be associated with them, is a bit much

Unless there is something i don't know about reproduction, you are the product of both a man and woman, male and female, xx and xy, WHATEVER. I don't care.

i'm just SO tired of hearing this consant battle over something that is ONLY complicated because you choose to make it so.

but i suppose we all need something to fight for.

carry on, people of varied gender spelling, but i doubt, that for now, i have much more to say on this matter

*puts up a flame retardant flack shield*

slvr_phoenix
August 22nd, 2001, 09:56 AM
**sigh**

I think my entire point was missed.

I understand WHY some women would like a new word. If it makes them feel special to be conformistly different, then that's fine for them.

My point is the choice of word itself is a disempowering choice. It's visible male-centric, which is the exact opposite of what the word itself is supposed to stand for. To me, you can't get much sillier than that. Had the spelling variation been something like womb-in (phoneitcally similar but female empowering instead of male-centric) I could appreciate it. However, adding yet more phallic appearance to the word to make it womyn, wimmin, wymyn, etc., is, to me, a silly choice to make because it goes against what was trying to be accomplished.

That's all I was saying. And as such, I am confused on why any women who believes in woman empowerment would use such self-contradicting words instead of something that actually empowers women. I was hoping that someone could give a logical answer about how it actually does empower and so it's not silly. So far I have yet to see any though. I kind of find that depressing really. I thought somewhere, some serious feminist would have a good answer as to why womyn is empowering instead of weakening.

Personally, I happen to think that the word grrl over girl was a much better choice of a spelling change than womyn over woman. It has less visible phallicicity (Hey, is phallicicity even a word? If not it should be.) and gives an added phonetic sense of empowerment and strength to boot. All around, I feel grrl was a far better accomplishment than womyn.

As a side note, while half on and half off topic, I would like to take a second to point out that the phrase, "you all suffer from Vagina envy....not to mention total fear & hatred of Vaginas", is quite contradictory. One does not envy what one fears or hates. So if there is a battle of wits going on here, well, I think the quote speaks for itself.

As for the newly-created and fully-related topic of whether or not creating the new word womyn is actually accomplishing anything useful, I'd like to add my two cents to that as well.

It was mentioned that the reasoning is because of language. Which is good reasoning. So let's look at that.

In the English language old words have been given new spellings to create new words that remain phonetically the same. (IE: Colour/Color, Olde/Old, Cheque/Check, Honour/Honor) So the changing of the spelling has absolutely no change on the definition. Which gives precidence to the notion that changing the spelling of woman to womyn accomplishes nothing, for even if the dictionary were to one day accept the change of spelling and include this new word, the meaning itself would still remain the same.

Further, the use of a different word, womyn over woman, is only further re-affirming that the word woman itself has a negative connotation. It's only feeding more strength to the male-centric point of view on the word woman. It is harmful to all of those females out there who use the word woman and are proud to call themselves woman. This is the exact opposite purpose of feminism from any point of view on feminism. So whether the creation of the word womyn had a good intent behind it or not, the results are clearly not as positive as many would like to believe.

In my personal opinion, what should be done is not to change the word woman to womyn. Instead the definition of woman is what should be changed. I mean let's face it, the English language at the very least has numerous examples of words that no longer have the definition they were meant to have when first defined.

(IE: The word Indian was given to the Native Americans because the nagivationally-challenged explorers ended up in the wrong place. The word was meant to mean the people who live in India. Instead it has come to also mean the people who originally lived in America. Also the word ****** was originally just a commonly accepted abbreviation for the word Nigerian. Later it was given a very derogitory definition. And today there are those working on giving it a neutral to positive connotation. The word Witch originally had a positive connotation as a woman or person who used naturalistic healing and the power of Mother Earth to care for those in need before doctors even existed, as well as provide wisdom to those in need. Then the Christians came along and gave the word Witch a negative connotation as well as a negative appearance. Today we are fighting to restore the positive connotations of the word.)

So in my not so humble opinion, a true feminist would be working to affirm that the word woman has no negative connotations and to give the word woman a fully positive definition, not re-affirming those male-centric negative connotations by trying to create a new word. (And as previoustly stated, in my opinion, a bad choice for a new word at that.)

And, I think it's pretty obvious that had a woman suggested these things instead of a man, a feminist would at least give them some thought and debated them with intelligence, instead of telling the suggestor that they have a fear of vaginas. (And I'm sure my wife could fully proclaim my tongue knows no such fear.) Yet because a man suggests such things the possible validity of them is completely ignored. If that isn't a perfect example of sexism, I don't know what is.

Frankly, if these are the best examples of feminism today, I'm quite depressed.

Xois
August 22nd, 2001, 10:12 AM
Spelling woman as womyn doesn't change ANYTHING

language does in fact shape reality!

Have either of you looked up either one of those women theorists?

I'll write them out again, just in case

Julia Kristeva
Helene Cixous

When it comes to language, they are worth the read!

Xois
August 22nd, 2001, 10:14 AM
I espeically hate people that think they are BETTER than I am, or SMARTER than I am

Than I think it beomes clear that it has nothing to do with feminist theory or those who believe in them but rather with your own insecurities (perhaps?)

Xois
August 22nd, 2001, 10:18 AM
a true feminist would be working to affirm that the word woman has no negative connotations and to give the word woman a fully positive definition, not re-affirming those male-centric negative connotations by trying to create a new word. (And as previoustly stated, in my opinion, a bad choice for a new word at that.)

There is some truth in this

for example...the word Pagan has only ever existed as a word coined by the Christians that has negative connotations, and we are reclaiming it

However, I hardly believe that either you or I could / should be venturing what a "real" feminist should do

lumping all feminist together is not accurate

I am a total feminst! Hurrah! I love being a woman and I love women *wiggles eyebrows*

I also realize the world I live in is not perfect, and will only become so by working through change!

Now if you don't like the choice of womin or womyn, than don't use it...its your choice...

AH, CHOICE...isn't that the point...Isn't it nice to have a choice !

I appreciate that choice and I appreciate those who have worked toward having choice

CHOICE goes far beyond abortion...You can ignore the finer points if you want to...that cool...

But I perfer to wallow in them! Y eah!

Xois
August 22nd, 2001, 10:23 AM
Also the word ****** was originally just a commonly accepted abbreviation for the word Nigerian

Actually, that is not correct, please see below

Main Entry: nig·ger
Pronunciation: 'ni-g&r
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of earlier neger, from Middle French negre, from Spanish or Portuguese negro, from negro black, from Latin niger
Date: 1700

Semele
August 22nd, 2001, 10:28 AM
Xois,
you got that thesis done yet???

Don't make me ban you till its done!!!
:eek:

Lucidia
August 22nd, 2001, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Xois


Than I think it beomes clear that it has nothing to do with feminist theory or those who believe in them but rather with your own insecurities (perhaps?)

no.

i'm sick and tired of having to argue, or simply at this point ignore, people that will try endlessly to convince me that somehow they're opinion is BETTER than mine, and if I don't do what they are doing, that i'm foolish, or blind, or have no respect for myself, or a whole host of things.

i'm quite secure in what i believe, which is why i am tired of being told that my beliefs are inferior. i hardly ever tell people that i think what they are doing or believing is wrong, because i hate when people do that to me.

i'm insecure about other things, like my weight, or my career, not my gender or identity.

i personally think people should work together for the betterment of the human race, not just gender. concentrated efforts in only one half of a whole problem will never solve ALL the problems, but in itself, most likely create new ones.

And the feminists that I am personally offended by, are the ones that "hate" men, and i mean ALL men, and hate anyone who likes men, or defends men. Not to mention, that will insult me because I don't personally live by some feminist creed.

just figured i'd clear that up.

Kaylara
August 22nd, 2001, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Lucidia


no.

i'm sick and tired of having to argue, or simply at this point ignore, people that will try endlessly to convince me that somehow they're opinion is BETTER than mine, and if I don't do what they are doing, that i'm foolish, or blind, or have no respect for myself, or a whole host of things.

i'm quite secure in what i believe, which is why i am tired of being told that my beliefs are inferior. i hardly ever tell people that i think what they are doing or believing is wrong, because i hate when people do that to me.

i'm insecure about other things, like my weight, or my career, not my gender or identity.

i personally think people should work together for the betterment of the human race, not just gender. concentrated efforts in only one half of a whole problem will never solve ALL the problems, but in itself, most likely create new ones.

And the feminists that I am personally offended by, are the ones that "hate" men, and i mean ALL men, and hate anyone who likes men, or defends men. Not to mention, that will insult me because I don't personally live by some feminist creed.

just figured i'd clear that up.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Kaylara

mol
August 22nd, 2001, 10:39 AM
:rolleyes:

Labels...

I'll stick to my 1's and 0's.

bloodstone20
August 22nd, 2001, 10:40 AM
and btw is it double spaced? One time, because i missed a class trip to the zoo (in seventh grade none the less) and had to write a five page report on reptiles. Double spacing helps!

Anyhoo, ummm, so we all really don't care if we use Womyn? then why are we discussing it?

Xois
August 22nd, 2001, 10:41 AM
Well, I can understand that

But you know most feminist (espeically the ones I know and the theoriest I have pointed out) don't hate Men...not at all...they just want to look at and study women for a while

We still live ina culture that is mostly created by men (Thats a whole other thread) so to place an emphasis elsewhere isn't bad--hence women's studies...Much work has been done on the analysis of women in moves as product of the male gaze...its kind of cool and enlightening...

One might (not me...just playing devils advocate, here) even say that your insistance stems from self-loathing becuase the male dominated culture in which you were raised, taught you to hate and fear yourself becuase you are "other"...

Now thats over the top, I think...however, most feminist are't feminizis (rather disrespectful of Rush to co-opt such an important historical frame of reference for something that isn't even comparable...)

Most feminists are just normal women, womin, wombin (that is great by the way, i love that!) and womyn! :D

NOW BOW DOWN AND HAIL THE MIGHT BREAST! :D

hehehe

There is more that unites us as women, than separates us as feminists...:D

*sister hug!*

Xois
August 22nd, 2001, 10:42 AM
*is banished to her thesis*

Thanks Semele! Someone has got to write the damn thing!

Mol: Word!

Lilu
August 22nd, 2001, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Illuminatus
Your best hope for eqality is to change what a Woman is (or percieved as) so it is clear that the sexist entemology of the word has been outmoded. You can't change the history, that is done. But you can change what connotation the word Woman means in the next century. But it must be done thorugh example, not linguistics.- Ill

Yes! I completely agree. I embrace the word WOMAN because I choose to be an example that I am not a weak-minded, completely dependant, un-thinking, only-good-for-having-babies human being. And I personally take offense to all those WOMYN out there who tell me that just because I CHOOSE to stay home and keep the home, I am setting the women's movement back 30 years (and yes I have been told this) by allowing my husband to support me instead of creating a two-income family and letting daycare raise my children (at least, that would be the case when I had kids if I chose to work outside the home).


Originally posted by Kaylara
It's not about subjegation... I don't accept that... But rather than coming up with a new word to describe how women should be percieved, we have to make the original word mean something else. Otherwise, the people who say that they are Womyn just stigmatizing themselves, and not changing anything.
Kaylara

Agreed. In fact, if we are going to abandon the word woman, we should also abandon the word man. Because not all men are the stereotypical masogynist abusive raping b*****ds that womyn like to associate them with. Perhaps the men here would like to adopt the word SNAG (Sensitive New Age Guy) that is a commonly used slang term in Australia for those wonderful men. ??? ;) lol


Originally posted by Puma Hime
I really don't see the need to make a new word. When I say I am a WOMAN, I feel PROUD. I don't need to give myself a new name to show that I'm a new kind of person. . .I just need to be that kind of person. A title is nothing without something behind it. I personally think (I"m not saying anyone here is doing so, this is just my opinion and like always I could be wrong) that some women use the different spellings almost as a crutch, kind of with the philosophy of "ooh those poor women. . . if only they were true WOMYN, then they wouldn't feel so bad about themselves. . . " . . . imo. . .that's a bunch of. . . silly. . ideas.

Woo hoo! You go girl!!! (Or should that be grrl? ;)) I wonder, is there such a word like masogynist, only in the opposite meaning of "man-hater"? I've never heard of it, but I would probably associate such a word with many of the so-called 'feminists' of these days. Feminism, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION has turned from being about equality for all genders, to a system of wanting 'power over' and more rights than men, and wanting all men to pay for the 'sins' of the few @sses that are out there.

I found the post 'some things never change' in Just Talk to be very interesting. Why is it there are no men's centres at Universities? Because womyn would jump up and down and complain that they were being discriminated against, and yet if a man complains about it, he is a masogynist and a neanderthal. The same goes for men-only gyms, womyn complain and whine about those, and yet there are how many women-only gyms out there?

In the military women expect to be treated as equals, yet they don't have to run as far, carry as much, or do some of the harder tasks in basic training that the men do. Why is this? Because if they did, they would most likely FAIL. And if they failed, the military would be 'gender biased' because the women never get through basic training. (not speaking for all women of course, there are probably some who would be able to carry the loads that men are made to).

Calling myself a feminist today, to me, isn't appealing because most people associate feminism with man-hate. Maybe what we need to be trying to do is to change the attitude associated with feminism? Because it carries (IMHO) quite a negative vibe to it now days.


Originally posted by slvr_phoenix
In my personal opinion, what should be done is not to change the word woman to womyn. Instead the definition of woman is what should be changed. I mean let's face it, the English language at the very least has numerous examples of words that no longer have the definition they were meant to have when first defined.

EXACTLY! I want to know why it is we can all fight and struggle to show that the current perceptions of the meaning of WITCH (for instance) is incorrect, and yet when it comes to fighting to change the perceptions of the meaning of WOMAN we go and change the spelling and create an entirely new word? Let's reclaim the word WOMAN, like we've reclaimed the word WITCH. To me, that is more empowering.

Disclaimer: As ALWAYS these are just my personal opinions on the matter. If you have a problem with them, I'll remind you that it's a free country (last time I looked) and you are certainly ENTITLED to have a different opinion to mine.

Lilu

ladyrowan
August 22nd, 2001, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by slvr_phoenix

In the English language old words have been given new spellings to create new words that remain phonetically the same. (IE: Colour/Color, Olde/Old, Cheque/Check, Honour/Honor) So the changing of the spelling has absolutely no change on the definition.

Just a small 'by the way'.
Colour, cheque and honour have never changed their spelling in Britain, we still use the 'right' (giggle) spelling.
Our dictionaries show the other spellings as US varients. If schoolkids here use those spellings it is marked as wrong.

Another small point - we could use the word 'lady' ? No mention of man or men there. Doesn't have to mean meak, prim and proper - look at me! 8O

One final point. By using the word 'womyn' I am in no way putting down anyone who prefers 'woman' (some of my best friends are women. :) ) It's just personal choice, same as some use Mrs, some Miss and some Ms.

BB

ladyrowan
August 22nd, 2001, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Lilu

Perhaps the men here would like to adopt the word SNAG (Sensitive New Age Guy) that is a commonly used slang term in Australia for those wonderful men. ??? ;) lol
Lilu


They also use the word 'snag' as a slang term for sausage :eek: 8O

BB

bloodstone20
August 22nd, 2001, 11:10 AM
LOL!!!

slvr_phoenix
August 22nd, 2001, 12:08 PM
**LOL** Hmm ... Well, I suppose slang for sausage does still work well for men.

Personally, I'm not fond of SNAG because that sounds kind of fruity / fluff-bunny to me. I may be sensitive, but I'm still manly too. I'm happy just to call myself a man and hope that one day the definition of man will mean something like, "A well-rounded socially-conscious emotionally-fruitfull individual of the male persuiasion." (As opposed to the commonly accepted current definition which goes more like, "An emotionally-challenged/deprived sexually-driven person with two heads, neither one holding more of a brain than the other.")

So I'm working on reclaiming the word man for men everywhere.

And I'm proud of any woman doing the same for the word woman, just as I'm proud of any pagan or witch doing the same for those words as well.

We've got to stop letting the English-speaking Christian-fundamentalist community run our lives and our vocabulary. We've got to take back the power that society has given them. Then we'll be that much closer to equality for all.

And what Lilu has said about equality lost between men and women to the woman's advantage is so very true. It applies almost sickeningly in the military, but there are numerous other cases of it as well in the civilian world.

Swanspirit
August 22nd, 2001, 01:09 PM
WOMOON myself.....LOL but anytime you change a word ;which is essentially a representation of something and not the thing itself; you challenge or change someones ideas about the "thing being represented" even if it is simply to engender discussion, agreement , or backlash, and that get the ideas in motion and sets changes in motion ; either reactionary insistent on not changing, or consideration of new ideas and their application; to outright adoption of the new idea and embracing the change..... all of which are functions of of the seed change..... a change in the word or symbol ......used to represent that change.
Somtimes this change is evolutionary in nature , where a word just comes to represent something different over time......sometimes it is deliberate......as a deliberate insertion into the language ....look at the techie words we use to describe an entirely new generation of people with new behaviors ... we needed new words( symbols) to describe them.
I recall many discussions about the origins and changes in perception regarding the word WITCH , and how the changing of ther perceptions of that word changed peoples ideas about the people who use that word.
Thank you for the discussion :>
Love and light
Swannie

Myst
August 22nd, 2001, 01:21 PM
Changing the spelling of the word doesn't change who I am or who any woman/womyn is. My response when someone questions my work or intelligence because of my gender is to work even harder to prove myself. Some people insist on laying their problem on the beliefs of other people or even the spelling of the word, I prefer to take control of my own image. No personal feelings involved, no calling people names, just doing my absolute best. Rather then change people, I feel you should change yourself.

Honestly, when someone is watching what you're doing to see if you can really do your job, do you think they really care how you spell your gender?

Why argue labels (words) when actions speak louder?

JMHO

slvr_phoenix
August 22nd, 2001, 01:44 PM
Well Willow Raven, I completely agree.

Two questions still remain though:

1) Why bother changing what you call yourself if it holds no meaning?

And the big question (at least to me, which is why I started this thread in the first place):

2) What positive feminist reason is there to use the specific word "womyn"?

Earth Walker
August 22nd, 2001, 05:50 PM
Woman is really Woe man....or Whoa man.....as in you better
watch it buster!

hehehehe 8O 8O 8O

Semele
August 22nd, 2001, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Mystique
Woman is really Woe man....or Whoa man.....as in you better
watch it buster!

hehehehe 8O 8O 8O

ROFLMAO!!!

Honestly though, I don't think anyone has ever judged my work as inferior based on my gender. Maybe I am just lucky...or else they are scart of me!!!:bad:

Tigerwallah
August 22nd, 2001, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Lucidia


no.

i'm sick and tired of having to argue, or simply at this point ignore, people that will try endlessly to convince me that somehow they're opinion is BETTER than mine, and if I don't do what they are doing, that i'm foolish, or blind, or have no respect for myself, or a whole host of things.

i'm quite secure in what i believe, which is why i am tired of being told that my beliefs are inferior. i hardly ever tell people that i think what they are doing or believing is wrong, because i hate when people do that to me.

i'm insecure about other things, like my weight, or my career, not my gender or identity.

i personally think people should work together for the betterment of the human race, not just gender. concentrated efforts in only one half of a whole problem will never solve ALL the problems, but in itself, most likely create new ones.

And the feminists that I am personally offended by, are the ones that "hate" men, and i mean ALL men, and hate anyone who likes men, or defends men. Not to mention, that will insult me because I don't personally live by some feminist creed.

just figured i'd clear that up.

That's funny. I wasn't thinking of you at all.

Tigerwallah
August 22nd, 2001, 08:00 PM
"I have no color prejudices nor caste prejudices nor creed prejudices. All I care to know is that a man is a human being, and that is enough for me; he can't be any worse."- Mark Twain

The thing about being a feminist is that everyone hates you, including the women, but if not for a feminist, women wouldn't even have the right to vote.

As a goddess worshipper, I am naturally a feminist. I can be a feminist and not hate all men. I actually have many men friends who I love and respect. I don't think that some of you are seeing the entire picture. But if you are not a feminist, and you want to make this about you... hey, I can't stop you. I remember when I first started, I made a comment about how people look down on women who do not wish to be mothers and who follow their careers. I'm not sure how, but many women thought that that statement was about putting them down. Insecurity, ain't it a b#$%^. Funny, but it seems like some of you were jumping on the feminists for their choice, not the other way around.

I respect everyone's opinion, whether I agree with it or not. It was Voltaire who said, "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." or something very close to that.

Earth Walker
August 22nd, 2001, 08:20 PM
I am a staunch feminist, and I do not hate men so much as I
hate the attitudes most have about womyn/women, nor do I
condemn women who choose family.....but I speak up when
those women blast feminists, or when they are constantly
trying to convince me that men are to be obeyed, etc., :sick:
I will fight for the rights of all womyn/women, regardless.
This is not solely an issue of womyn's/women's rights....it is about
the rights of those people who are non-caucasians, the poor,
the elderly, men, for they too, have been conditioned by
patriarchy to believe that "white is right", or believe that lesbians
are "evil" that Pagans are "devil-children" that war(s) is good, etc.
I'm not saying all men....but yeah, most....and, yes, some
womyn/women are just as bad.
It's also about about taking action to stop total destruction to
Mother Earth!

Kaylara
August 22nd, 2001, 08:56 PM
I don't look for female superiority. I look for equality for both sexes. So if there is a woman's center, then let there be a men's center. I'm sorry that I think that men and women are different, but equal. Women have endurance, men have fast bursts... etc, etc, etc.

Kaylara

SpikesPet5150
August 22nd, 2001, 09:57 PM
Once in my life, I was told I wasn't good enough, because I was a woman. I was working, doing tech support and the second I answered the phone, the guy on the other end wanted to speak to a male. I told him the only way to do that, was to hang up, try again, wait on hold for another 45 minutes and hope he gets a male.. and then I offered once more to help him. He told me no, because I couldn't possibly know as much as a man. I've never been more pissed off, and almost embarassed in my entire life. THEN.... I got promoted to be a supervisor.. I take over the harder calls, the pissed off people, yadda yadda. Ok, so one day, this girl passes me this call.. because he didn't want to talk to a girl. hehe So I get on the phone, and he says, "No, I wanted to talk to a guy.. transfer me to a man." I looked around our little cubicles... and whaddaya know.. there was 3 supervisors working at the time.. all females. I got back on the phone and said, "Sir, the only supervisors we have on duty right now are female, you can either let me help you with this call, or you can try again later." He didn't want to wait.. so I fixed his problem.. quickly. He was so happy, he apologized up and down, and made me promise I'd tell the girl he was sorry for offending her. :) Glad to know I made a difference.
As far as woman/womyn.. whatever floats your boat, butters your bread, bursts your bubble.. whatever. I'm a woman.. and I'm proud to be a woman., but I'm also proud of all those womyn out there, who are making a difference, instead of just hating. :)
~Bree
:elf:

Myst
August 22nd, 2001, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Semele


ROFLMAO!!!

Honestly though, I don't think anyone has ever judged my work as inferior based on my gender. Maybe I am just lucky...or else they are scart of me!!!:bad:

I thought you were a nurse?

That's still a mostly female dominated industry.

I'm in IT. Most guys I talk to online etc. go "Wow, a woman in IT? Those are few and far between"... I can only think of a handful of others. When f2f it's so fun to show up a guy who thinks I'm an airhead :)

BrightStar
August 23rd, 2001, 12:13 AM
Hi all!
Oooh!Ooooh!(Raises hand in best Arnold Horschak imitation)
I have seen guys get the children in court and the woman forced to pay child support!2 of my friends are in that position.They do have a hard time getting the woman(womyn?) to pay in a timely manner,just like when guys are forced to pay!One just blew it off,he just wants her to go away,and she finally has..The other needs the money at times so it's inconvenient.
We have a gender neutral child custody law in Oklahoma,the child usually goes to the primary caregiver,and in these 2 cases,that was the father.
Oh well,I thought it was kind of interesting.
Peace and Love
BrightStar

Sequoia
August 23rd, 2001, 01:42 AM
Brightstar - *nods* my father should've prolly gotten custody of me and my brother, my mom is a complete nutcase. I'm currently having my dad get custody of me. My mother belongs in an institution if you know her well enough. . . if not, she seems perfectly nice. . . but when she punches you and swears at you and calls you names and says you're a traitor to the family, then it's kinda the last straw. That's when I moved in with my dad.

Fathers can be just as good as mothers. . . their style may be different but who says they can't be just as caring and adequit as mothers? And there have been many cases where the child fared WORSE with his/her mother, even though the father had faught for custody. EX: a druggie mother is claiming to be sober and gets her kid because she's the MOTHER, and the kid is found years later addicted and suffering from malnutrition. If the kid had been with his father, who lived a completely different lifestyle, the child may have been much better off.

Swanspirit
August 23rd, 2001, 02:08 AM
Hard Core Old Time Rap Session Bra Burning Feminist.
FemiNAZI is a backlash word used against women to intimidate them for taking power instead of asking for it nicely and being refused , and then turning their centuries old rage inward on themselves. That [feminazi] is a NEW word incidentally and I dont see anyone objecting to making YET another horrendous assocation with women. No one has a "problem" associating women with the the worst most horrible incidence of genocide and inmumanity ?? NO one has a PROBLEM with that ???But they have a problem with womyn?????????????????????????????
Amazing to me to see that happening .
I am not even going into the inequities that STILL exist in this country in terms of power respect and money . Isnt it enough the new poverty class are the divorced women and children??? There indeed may be a few instances in which the woman has more income but these instances are not the norm.
Much of the Guerilla THEATRE action of early feminists was developed to make people think!!
To change ideas and lifestyles so that our daughters didnt have to suffer with what we did .
I wish every child were taught the real history of human rights because that is what this is about HUMAN rights not just women.
I actually dont like the Y in womyn because we do not have the Y chromosome .... we are the matrix of the species,and carry that great er part and the more stable part of the genetic information on the XX chromosome.
I once saw a license tag that read M.D. = XX
I loved it...........maybe I will opt for the word Womun :> I like it .... has the ring of the old latin word for the WORLD... Mundi
as in Lacrimae Mundi meaning the tears of the World, which are shed for women all over the world in Afghanistan where they are oppressed beyond belief, where in China baby girls are STILL allowed to die.........where in Africa Clitoridectomies are still performed and in Arabic countries where women are killed on the say so of a man ......
I SAY spell it any D*** way you please .... as long as people get the message :> and we get some changes ..........
Love and WOMUN HUGS
Swannie

Lucidia
August 23rd, 2001, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Tigerwallah


That's funny. I wasn't thinking of you at all.

what? My clarification was directed toward a comment that Xois made... so... well.. whatever. I wasn't thinking of you either.

Xois
August 23rd, 2001, 10:39 AM
swanSpirit!

WORD!

I still like wombin though! :D

Xois
August 23rd, 2001, 10:43 AM
I think the femininst movement was in part, a failure, becuase women forced them selves to do it all...they run the household and hold down a job...So the feminist movement isn't something that happened in the past! it is happening now...too!

We still ahve a long way to go...our government doesn't do enough to support job sharing or paternity leave and the like...gender equity is still lopsided interms of who is the family caregiver...

how many of us on the board are stay at home DADS! Just curious

Or how many of the women who work full time aren't also the MAIN caregiver/housekeeper role?

where is the progress that some have mentioned?

Cheers
Xois

Swanspirit
August 23rd, 2001, 10:50 AM
Merry Merry,
If the relevance of this post escapes you ..... well.........


From: Housekeeping Monthly, 13 May 1955

The Good Wife’s Guide
· Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready, on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have been thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed.
· Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people.
· Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.
· Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives.
Gather up schoolbooks, toys, paper etc. and then run a dustcloth over the tables.
· Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering for his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.
· Prepare the children. Take a few minutes to wash the children’s hands and faces (if they are small), comb their hair and, if necessary,change their clothes. They are little treasures and he would like to see them playing the part. Minimise all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Try to
encourage the children to be quiet.
· Be happy to see him.
Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first – remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.
Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner, or other places of entertainment without you. Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very need to be at home and relax.
Your goal: Try to make sure your home is a place of peace, order and tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit.
Don’t greet him with complaints and problems.
Don’t complain if he’s late home for dinner or even if he stays out all night. Count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through that day.
Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.
Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.
Don’t ask him questions about is actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, his is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.
A good wife always knows her place.


NOW.... I am SURE you cannot imagine what it took and is taking to change this mindset that the children of that day were raised in ,but perhaps you MIGHT understand why some women dont appreciate being called "feminazi's.It is a horrible term , to equate many of the forerunners of the GODDESS and pagan movement to the perpetators of genocide and HORROR of the NAZIS. I am sure everyone who uses is making RUSH LIMBAUGH happy ......... since he is the originator of the phrase :>
It is the equivalent of what was done to the soldiers that fought in in Vietnam.....calling the military and anyone affiliated with them murderers amd war mongers .
And to the women who choose to stay home , that is what REAL FEMINISM is about ...... CHOICES.... because there was a time when that was all a women was expected to do OR be a nurse teacher or secretary ...... there WERE NO real choices. I am deeply grateful that there are some astute young women and men who have the perspective to see what changes have been wrought .
Love and Light
Swannie

Swanspirit
August 23rd, 2001, 10:54 AM
WOMBIN IS GOOD!!!!!!!:sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

Xois
August 23rd, 2001, 10:59 AM
LOL
wish it was mine! :D

slvr_phoenix
August 23rd, 2001, 01:07 PM
**L** Well, I'm glad this thread is being so enjoyed. :) I hadn't quite intended to turn it into an equal rights discussion, but hey, why not? I'll proclaim it to be thread-related, and since I started this thread, I should have the power to do so. :) He he he.

I'd like to specify something though, I never said it was wrong to use the word womyn. I just thought that when diagnosed, it seems like a silly choice to make compared to others that could be used instead. **shrug** Smack me for trying to help the women's rights movement to be more logical... Heh heh. I'm not saying women who use the word are silly. Or that the ideals behind it are silly. I'm saying that specific word seems like a silly choice. I hope everyone understands there's a world of difference there. :)

One thing I'd like to talk about now though, that I'd been previously hoping wouldn't come up, but it finally has and thus probably can't be avoided for much longer, is the term "feminazi". I'd been trying to avoid it and had purposely not been putting any energy into thinking about it because it can be a very hostile topic. I agree that the term is derogitory, and can be offensive, depending on how it's used.

To me, the term isn't JUST a derogitory word for a feminist though. It's a term to specify a very specific branch of feminism which ISN'T fighting for EQUAL rights, but for women to have MORE rights than men have. It's a term to specify those feminists who would, if given the chance, completely reverse history and take away all men's rights and would get rid of men entirely if they could. Well, maybe not would, but wish for at least, or don't oppose the idea, which is arguably just as bad.

You hear these specific feminists talk about how men aren't even needed for reproduction anymore and the world would just be better off if all men were killed, or at least if the male population were severly reduced. (Such as the perspective that Anne Rice's Akasha vampire had taken just before her destruction.) Well, I'm sorry, but that IS a genocidal view to take. So for those women, the term "feminazi" is an excellent descriptor and very deserving. The Nazis believed in the superiority of a specific race over all other races. To me, the feminazi are those feminists who believe in the superiority of a specific gender over all other genders.

I suggest that if anyone finds my views on that term offensive, perhaps they should think about why they feel it is. **L** Hopefully no one does though.

Now, on to 'equal rights'. Me, I'm all for equality between everyone. But to me that doesn't mean every workplace should have exactly 50% male employees and 50% female employees. To enforce any sort of quota as such, is to me, not equal treatment, but in actuality reinforcing the -isms.

To me, jobs should be held by those who are the most qualified. Gender, race, religion, age, etc., should not even be a part of a resume, nor a consideration for employment, EVER. (Well, almost ever. There can be rare cases such as prison guards were specific gender could matter, and such.) To me, the ONLY consideration should be qualification. Do they know enough? Can they perform the tasks required of them, physically and mentally? That's all that should matter.

And quite frankly, this means that many career fields will thusly be very lop-sided, at least when gender is considered. Most men are adept at technical tasks. Most women are adept at being in touch with their emotions. That doesn't by any means imply ALL though. I appreciate a technical woman. :) I appreciate an emotional man. :)

But employment should be based on skill, not on gender, and the differences between people should be used to an advantage. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. And in that, everyone is special and of equal value. So we should be where our strengths can best be used. We should not be forced into putting people into jobs to match an equally divided quota where their strengths and weaknesses aren't considered.

For example, the US Navy has just seen accidents caused by promoting female combat pilots into positions that they were not qualified for. Why did they promote those women if they weren't qualified? Because the women's rights activists got on the Navy's case claiming the Navy was sexist. So the Navy advanced their two best female combat pilots, even though the two best female pilots were by no means the best pilots out of all of the pilots the Navy had to choose from. (Nor were they even very skilled pilots for that matter.) And now it's resulted in tragedy because these unqualified women were promoted into positions they weren't skilled enough to hold, all in the name of equal rights. I ask, where is the logic in that?

There are countless similar cases (though not gaining nearly as much press coverage, if any) where people have been accepted or promoted into positions over someone more qualified than them purely because if they hadn't been, some 'equal rights' activist would have sued, marched, boycotted, whatever.

I ask, where is the equality in that?

In the US at the very least, women have most definately achived equality. In fact, they've achived superiority. In the US 'Equal Rights' are now requirements, rules, regulations, and laws that benefit everyone except the white male.

In most cases, feminism is no longer about 'equal rights'. (Which is why, I suspect, most women who believe in the equality between genders won't call themself a feminist anymore.) There are other countries for true feminists to fight for, but in America, the role of feminism is no longer what it used to be, because it's no longer needed.

The way I see it, if a person won't stand up for themselves, then they deserve whatever treatment they get. Look at all that minority leaders and activists have suffered in America to achive equality. All of the struggles they fought and the pain they endured. If the persons of another country won't do the same, then are they even deserving of someone else fighting for them? Are they even deserving of pity? I don't think that they are. If they're not willing to sacrifice themself for the cause, why should you sacrifice yourself for them?

But all of these words are my views and my opinions. It may or may not be the way things truely are. Obviously, I think that they are. :) But to each their own. Agree or disagree as you see fit. I won't take it personally, just as neither should you. :)

Swanspirit
August 23rd, 2001, 01:54 PM
I agree completely that you have made your views perfectly and crystal clear .....
up to and including how women have achieved superiority in the United States.....depite all of the facts and statistics to the contrary , which I am not going to quote here :>, because I believe as strongly as you do , that everyone {even ME a woman } has the right to express their opinion. JUST look at the MAIN BODY OF GOVERNMENT IN THIS COUNTRY..... and count the EQUAL numbers women and men representatives, that are reflective of the distribution of the sexes in their electorate ......in all of the branches of government, its obvious to anyone that womun have achieved superiority, isnt it??
Let me step out of Science Fiction Fantasy MODE here........and add perhaps we should check and see what percentage of MALE salaries women make FOR THE SAME JOB these days? Is it up to more than 66& I havent checked lately ?
I also agree that prospect of women wanting to take over and kill all the men is a daunting one , even if it is rare and can be found in fiction with vampires :> still a real threat ......I suppose ... to some......
I mean suppose that idea had the effect of making SOME men think what it might be like to have been a womun all these centuries.....or be a woman and live in another country where women and children are still property . cheeeese what could happen??? What would happen to John Lennons Song "Women are the Ni**ers of the world"? cheeesh anything could happen ..... a Womun President ???? naaaaaaaaaaahhhh just kidding.
Love and light
Swannie

Myst
August 23rd, 2001, 02:03 PM
It's $0.74/$1 on average actually

$0.84/$1 in Hawaii, $0.80/$1 in Maryland, while in Louisiana and Utah it's $0.65/$1 (an increase of $0.05 from the national average 20 years ago)....

*However*, it should be pointed out that this doesn't take into account the jobs involved, just the education. For example, there's no allowance made for the fact that there's probably one woman in IT (which is a high paying business) for every 20 or better men; it's based on all the women and men regardless of their career.

(this in the U.S., I'm looking for Canadian statistics now)

http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,249677-412,00.shtml

As far as women in political positions - any numbers I've seen don't take into account the fact of how many women *want* to be in politics. Sure it's obvious that there are very few women and lots of men in those positions, but is it known how many women *want* to be in them? Has anyone proven that for every 100 men who want to be in these positions there are 100 women? It's all too easy to assume this is inequality when it could just as easily be coincidence - for example, going back to my example of IT earlier, 1 woman for every 20 men, that's not inequality - that's just because not a lot of women want in that industry.

(as usual, finding some stats and sharing my opinions, NOT trying to say anyone is wrong or that I know everything)

Semele
August 23rd, 2001, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven


I thought you were a nurse?

That's still a mostly female dominated industry.

I'm in IT. Most guys I talk to online etc. go "Wow, a woman in IT? Those are few and far between"... I can only think of a handful of others. When f2f it's so fun to show up a guy who thinks I'm an airhead :)

Hey!!! Was that a sexist comment?? Contrary to popular belief there are many male nurses...not as many as women but they are still there. In fact if anything, I would say that the guys do get discriminated against a little in nursing. For example this male friend of mine that I went to school with wrote a paper on how it was discrimination to not allow male nurses in Labor and Delivery. The hospitals in question were Catholic and he argued that the docs are male so why can't the nurse be. Good argument...of course it got him nowhere. For the record he didn't want to work in L&D anyway.

Myst
August 23rd, 2001, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Semele
Hey!!! Was that a sexist comment?? Contrary to popular belief there are many male nurses...

I hope that wasn't a serious question. :)

Semele
August 23rd, 2001, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven


I hope that wasn't a serious question. :)

nah...of course not! Me be serious!!!!:cool:

slvr_phoenix
August 23rd, 2001, 03:13 PM
*However*, it should be pointed out that this doesn't take into account the jobs involved, just the education. For example, there's no allowance made for the fact that there's probably one woman in IT (which is a high paying business) for every 20 or better men; it's based on all the women and men regardless of their career.
And that's exactly why the figures are meaningless. In the US, a woman in the same job as a man, will almost always earn the EXACT SAME wage as the man. (There are no absolutes, so it can only be almost always, as in fact the reverse can also be found as well where a woman can earn more for the same job as a man does.) Do these 'studies' take into consideration on-the-job experience? Do they take the average wage of all employees working in a specific career with a specific amount of experience and education? Do they determine if a woman with the same experience and the same qualifications for the same position earn more or less than the man?

Of course not! Studies like this never take things like that into consideration, because to do so would make the 'study' have undesired results.

Now let's look at something else, taken from the article posted above:
Women also still had high rates of poverty - 50 percent higher than men's - and the hardest hit women were single mothers, Hartmann said.And just WHY are women single mothers hit so badly? Could it have ANYTHING to do with the fact that in most states a mother will be given custody of the children over the father, regardless of which is better suited to care for the children? I find it immensely hypocritical that women can take a situation where they have MORE rights than a man, and turn it around to make them look like the victims.

And let's look at political positions for a second, shall we? Yes, the percentages of men in politics to women in politics are horrible. BUT, why are they horrible? Are there any laws keeping women from running for politics? Are there any laws giving men an unfair advantage in politics over women? Are there any laws preventing women from going out and voting for a woman? Is there anything at all from keeping women from forming their own political party and collecting donations for this party from the women around America?

NO!

So then why are there less women politicians than men? Because less women are running for these political positions and less WOMEN are voting for the few women that do run.

Just look at how low of a voting turn-out there is in America. The percentage is horribly low. Now imagine if even 1/4th of ALL of the eligable-to-vote WOMEN in America voted ONLY for female candidates. These female candidates would win by a landslide!

So, are these figures reflective of a male-oriented society where men are repressing women?

Or are these figures reflective of an EQUAL society in which women MAKE THE CHOICE to not participate as much as men do?

To me, the answer is pretty clear. In America, women have EQUAL rights. (Actually, women have MORE rights.) The only problem remaining is that women, as a whole, CHOOSE not to empower themselves to equal men.

The PROBLEM isn't with the men in America. It's with the WOMEN. The problem isn't with the LAW in America, it's with the WOMEN.

There are plenty of empowered women out there who are every bit as equal to any man, because they MADE themselves equal to what men MADE themselves.

There's no great injustice against women going on in America anymore. There's no reason at all why America couldn't even be completely overrun by women politically and economically, if the women would just empower themselves to be all that they can be, choosing to be what they want to be, aiming as high as they want to aim. Nothing is stopping women from doing this, other than their own choice to not do it.

Frankly, I'd LOVE to see more women empower themselves. That's one of the qualities I absolutely cherish in my wife is that she will stand up for herself. She has the strength to do what she wants, and she won't let anyone else limit her life, including me. I love that about her. I don't think I even could love a woman who didn't have the inner-strength and will to stand up for herself. It'd put me so very off if someone was just a pushover.

Which is why I love these debates! You all have the strength to stand up for what you believe in, and that's cool. You don't just let me push you around. That's what makes it all so much fun. And that's how we can learn from each other, by comparing notes and ideas, so that we can see things from different points of view and appreciate it as a whole instead of just from one side.

And again, these are my views and opinions as I see them and may not reflect how others see them. You have every right to completely disagree with them and hold your own views, just as I hold the right to completely disagree or agree with those views.

But you have to at least admit some of my points can be pretty good points and at least merit some thought even if you do disagree with them. ;)

Myst
August 23rd, 2001, 03:35 PM
Well Silv, I don't know if you were agreeing with my points or not ;) I have a feeling a few people stopped replying because they just rolled their eyes and went "whatEVER" and wandered off again.. in any case I think I already beat my opinion like it should be on the way to the knacker and am waiting to see more opinions...

Lucidia
August 23rd, 2001, 03:43 PM
*personally stopped replying since she doesn't have enough time to read all the lovely book-like comments that people made*

i'm gonna have to go over this all later...hope all you shiny people are staying OT

slvr_phoenix
August 23rd, 2001, 04:00 PM
Willow Raven, I'm pretty much agreeing with you. (At least I think I am. :) ) I just don't agree with the 'conclusions' of the study you posted, because as you said, they don't take very many things into consideration.

And Lucidia, of course we're all "staying OT". :)

He he he. :)

Since On and Off both start with an O and all...

The question is, does the originator of a thread hold the right to extend the topic of the thread so long as the topics are still related?

Semele
August 23rd, 2001, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by slvr_phoenix
Willow Raven, I'm pretty much agreeing with you. (At least I think I am. :) ) I just don't agree with the 'conclusions' of the study you posted, because as you said, they don't take very many things into consideration.

And Lucidia, of course we're all "staying OT". :)

He he he. :)

Since On and Off both start with an O and all...

The question is, does the originator of a thread hold the right to extend the topic of the thread so long as the topics are still related?

I would think that if a topic veers a little to one side and all are still posting replies, then it is fine. If it gets too far off topic then we have to wrangle it back in!!

Swanspirit
August 23rd, 2001, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven
I have a feeling a few people stopped replying because they just rolled their eyes and went "whatEVER" and wandered off again.. .
which is basically about where I am at with this ..... ... :> been there done that a LONG time ago .....spelling and MSpelling
Love and Light
Swannie

Tigerwallah
August 23rd, 2001, 04:33 PM
that equality does not exist. 12 years ago I worked for an insurance company and was discriminated against by my female boss. She promised me a position, made me do the job for 3 months, along with my other job, and did not pay me any overtime for the extra time I needed to put in. She then gave the job to a guy in the mailroom. I'm the type of worker who is very consciencious and very dedicated. The man she gave my job to was quite the opposite. He did a lousy job, and was eventually let go. I suspect that this was because she and I butt heads over figures one day, and I was right. She literally told me, "Hmmmm, you were right. Don't do it again."

Several years later, I worked for Discovery Stores which eventually were bought out by Discovery Channel Stores. I was being paid $5,000.00 less than my male colleague. It was another case where I knew more, did more and was paid much less. He was eventually promoted to store manager, and so was I. He was fired when his numbers slipped dramatically and it was found out that he was carrying on an extra-marital affair in the store after hours. I replaced him, and still made about $5,000 less. We were the same age, had the same level of education, and I had several years of retail management experience, and he had none. Go figure.

I am not content to accept this, and I want reform. I don't want men to decide my reproductive rights, and I want federal and local candidates that represent me, and the majority of our elected officials do not.

It is interesting to note that India, Great Brittain, Israel, Brazil, and many other nations have had female leaders, but the U.S. has had never had a president who wasn't a white man.

Semele
August 23rd, 2001, 04:45 PM
While I wholeheartedly understand your frustration about being paid less, I have to say that this is not the case everywhere. One coworker of Mol's complained that he had worked for the company for 14 years and still only made X amount of dollars. Mol had been there less than a year, made more than him and had no degree and do you know what his reply was to his friend? Have you told anyone else you feel this way? The answer, surprisingly enough was that he had basically whined to everyone accept the folks in charge of making pay decisions. Had he stood up for himself he may have gotten a better deal.

Some places may continue to offer us less than what we deserve, but they hold no power over us. We can go somewhere else, we can find a job we both love and get the money we deserve. The only thing holding us back is our ownself. Sure there is sexual, racial, gender, religious discrimination out there, no doubt about it. However we DO NOT have to take it. There are literally hundreds of other jobs we could do. Or if you feel that seriously that you have been treated unfairly, get a lawyer....but we have to do something rather than nothing, otherwise we are condonning the behavior and saying, "yes I am weak and I will take whatever you give me."

Myst
August 23rd, 2001, 04:48 PM
A few points.

How does having this discussion prove there isn't generally equality? Is it because you and one other person has mentioned they were discriminated against? I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't get it.

In your first story you suggest you were discriminated against, but then you say you were probably let go because you disagreed. I would suggest, then, that you weren't let go because you were female. However, I may be misinterpreting this story.

I wasn't trying to suggest that the system is perfect and there's no discrimination, that's for sure. I think if I had been in your situation I would've just quit. I agree with Semele wholeheartedly - if you perceive a problem, then make an effort to correct your situation, rather then trying to get someone to spell a word differently.. that's of course, as always, JMHO

Tigerwallah
August 23rd, 2001, 05:09 PM
I was never fired from the first job. I guess I didn't elaborate enough. I just didn't get the promotion to the job I was doing for 3 months. The Operations manager was notorious for promoting the men in the company first. It was apparant that she felt intimidated by women, so she favored men. We thought that she didn't want to have to compete with women. Even though 90% of the employees who were at this job were female, the men always moved up the corporate ladder first. She even made a comment to one of my coworkers that she lost a promotion because the man "had a family to take care of."

Believe me, I did complain at Discovery Channel, and eventually left.

My point about us not having this discussion is that there would be no need for it. We don't discuss equal pay for men. We don't discuss men's rights. We don't discuss government representation for men. Why?

Myst
August 23rd, 2001, 11:39 PM
Ah, Tigerwallah, now I understand. Thanks for clarifying, and I see your point.

EasternPriest
August 24th, 2001, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by Tigerwallah

It is interesting to note that India, Great Brittain, Israel, Brazil, and many other nations have had female leaders, but the U.S. has had never had a president who wasn't a white man.

Since about 55% percent of the registered voters in the U.S. are women, I guess the women of this country keep voting in white males as president.

Tigerwallah
August 24th, 2001, 12:55 AM
The last time a woman actually ran for one of the top seats she was trashed by the old boys club (Geraldine Ferraro ran as V.P. to Walter Mondale).

Elizabeth Dole contemplated running several times, but was given no party support.

So, I suppose if a woman could actually become a candidate we would vote for her. Hey, Hillary would have my vote in a second.

EasternPriest
August 24th, 2001, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by Xois
We still ahve a long way to go...our government doesn't do enough to support job sharing or paternity leave and the like...gender equity is still lopsided interms of who is the family caregiver...

how many of us on the board are stay at home DADS! Just curious

Xois

Well, I've been a full time single dad since June of 1995. Even with the court system stacked against me, I have managed to hold on to custody, and raise my girls.

Equality? When my ex-wife took the girls and left in 1993, there were 28 phone numbers for women's support in the phone book, 3 for men. 2 of those were gay support groups, and one was an attorney.

If a women is taking care of a small child, they may qualify for the WIC program. No similar program exists for a man with a small child. When my ex-wife had custody of the girls, the system bent over backwards to help her. For a man, nothing.

Earth Walker
August 24th, 2001, 01:03 AM
Canada has had a Woman Prime Minister; Kim Campbell,
for about 4 months.

EasternPriest
August 24th, 2001, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Swanspirit
Isnt it enough the new poverty class are the divorced women and children??? There indeed may be a few instances in which the woman has more income but these instances are not the norm.

Only because there is a bias against the father of the children in the current system........

As a single dad, I raise my children, pay her alimony, while she does nothing, pays no child support, etc....

Myst
August 24th, 2001, 01:16 AM
Mystique : good point.

EP : I know a few men in similar situations as well - 2 in fact who have gotten custody or who are currently in a custody battle, and 1 who lost the custody battle entirely.. even tho he was a fit father with a good job and a home etc. the child was given for adoption by order of the court because the mom was unfit..

Danustouch
August 24th, 2001, 01:29 AM
I know a stay at home dad. He does a wonderful Job of raising his kids. He's VERY devoted. He cooks, cleans, and spends time with the kids. Works on a website, runs a circle, and does artistic projects. I don't know how he does it all. I really Don't. But he's amazing.

Danustouch
August 24th, 2001, 01:29 AM
Sorry for going OT...EEP!:eek: :eek:

EasternPriest
August 24th, 2001, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Danustouch
Sorry for going OT...EEP!:eek: :eek:

you go girl!!!!!....lol

Danustouch
August 24th, 2001, 01:40 AM
LOL..covered my tookus!

Earth Walker
August 24th, 2001, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Danustouch
LOL..covered my tookus!

Covered your tookus? :( ;) :bad:

EasternPriest
August 24th, 2001, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Danustouch
LOL..covered my tookus!

what a tookus!!!!...lol
:p

Danustouch
August 24th, 2001, 01:58 AM
EP...STOP LOOKING AT MY TOOKUS..and get back ON TOPIC! LOL
heheheh.8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

EasternPriest
August 24th, 2001, 01:59 AM
but, the topic "is" womyn........

Danustouch
August 24th, 2001, 02:02 AM
Moderators??????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL.

EasternPriest
August 24th, 2001, 02:20 AM
:p :D ;)

story
August 24th, 2001, 04:06 AM
well, you know.....
I have no problem with members of the female gender changing the name that they use to refer to themselves. I think any change in the tools of discourse create new possibilities.
My problem with the word womyn (or wimmin, or womun) is that its just, well, unimaginative.
I mean come on, its like the folks who created it had 3.5 vowels to choose from and they just closed thier eyes and threw a dart.
on top of that, it's just way to obviously a reaction. I've always held some rather radical views. I never would burn a flag tho, not because I care for the symbol particularly, but becuase all that would do would be to reinforce it as a symbol of power, so powerful in fact that it warrants attack from its enemies. isn't it a preferable strategy to create something new, rather than react to something old?
Wombin is cool, granted, but it just sounds a little too much like wombat. I haven't seen one in a little while, but I don't think thats exactly flattering.
any others? Com'n! revolution is art, otherwise it just sucks!

Tigerwallah
August 24th, 2001, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by story
Wombin is cool, granted, but it just sounds a little too much like wombat. I haven't seen one in a little while, but I don't think thats exactly flattering.


Actually, I was thinking it sounded like a town in Massachusettes. I breifly lived in Woburn, Mass. and they pronounced it Woobin. Just weird.

Tigerwallah
August 24th, 2001, 08:05 AM
I prefer to refer to myself as a feline.

Earth Walker
August 24th, 2001, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Tigerwallah
I prefer to refer to myself as a feline.

Here kitty kitty...come to momma hehehe:D

slvr_phoenix
August 24th, 2001, 12:37 PM
My point about us not having this discussion is that there would be no need for it.Tigerwallah, I have to completely disagree. There will always be someone whining about something or another, claiming to be repressed. Tis the nature of some people to make themselves victims. (Not that anyone here is one, just saying someone, somewhere, will ALWAYS be holding such a conversation, no matter how valid it is or not.) So the fact that the conversation exists means nothing.

This very second Bill Gates could be talking to his best friend about how the government is repressing and abusing his rights. Would that discussion indicate that there is a problem in the government?


We don't discuss equal pay for men. We don't discuss men's rights.I can give several points here.
1) If you look, you'll find we actually do from time to time, and such topics are quickly and promptly ignored.
2) Men don't often express these things not because they don't happen, but because admitting they do makes them 'less of a man' in a LOT of people's eyes.

When a woman is victimized, everyone is instantly concerned and helpful.

When a man is victimized, the few people that bother to even involve themselves are only there to brush it under the carpet where no one can see it. Or worse, to somehow turn things around to blame the man. Or worse yet, to take advantage of the man a second time.

It happens time and time and time again.

Do you realise how many people in this world don't even KNOW that husbands are domestically abused by their wives? That men are raped by women? That male prostitutes even exist as anything more than a joke for a bad commedy movie?

Much more than half of these cases aren't even reported simply because the 'system' will not only IGNORE IT if it happens to a man, but will even MAKE FUN OF a man for "letting it happen to him".

And that's when someone even takes it seriously. More often than even that, people will think the man is MAKING IT UP.

When a women is abused, it's something tragic. When a man is abused, it's something humerous.

And so little to no resources even exist to help men in these situations.

If we want to talk about in-equality of genders in America, let's talk about BOTH sides, eh?

There's even a homeless shelter close to where I live where women are taken into the house, but men are constantly refused because they "might rape or abuse the women". They aren't even GIVEN A CHANCE to prove themselves, they're just instantly discriminated against. And when anyone brings this up to officials to take action against, you know what happens? NOTHING!


We don't discuss government representation for men. Why?
I think I covered this pretty well in a previous post. No one stops women from running. There are more than just two political parties in America. Being refused by either doesn't mean you can't run and can't find support to run. And there are more than enough women voters out there to outweigh the male voters. If a woman would just stand up for herself and run instead of letting people intimidate her, and if the women in America would vote for her, she could be in ANY political office she wanted to be. ESPECIALLY president.

The reason that women aren't equally represented in politics is not because there is anything stopping it from happening. It's because there aren't enough women seriously trying to get into politics. So don't go blaming the men for that one, blame the women for not standing up for themselves.

I have to completely agree with Semele.

Nine times out of ten, the only people who are repressed are the people who ALLOW themselves to be repressed. And the other one of ten times, if that person would stand up for themselves and fight, even if they continue to be repressed, they will at least be laying the foundation for someone else to build on to overcome that repression.

Abuse happens to EVERYONE, regardless of gender, age, race, religion, sexual preference, etc., etc., etc. The difference between being repressed and not is simply standing up for yourself and refusing to continue taking that abuse. Anyone can do that, if they try.

slvr_phoenix
August 24th, 2001, 12:49 PM
And EasternPriest, more power to you! I'm glad that you were even able to fight the system. I hope things are working out well enough for you.

Dellit Tandannon
August 24th, 2001, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by mol
:rolleyes:

Labels...

I'll stick to my 1's and 0's.

<complete sarcasm>
are you saying that you're a 1 and i'm a 0?!?!?!
that offends me! you're alive and i'm dead, or you're positive and i'm negative, or you're smart and i'm stupid. how dare you!
</complete sarcasm>

hehehehe, silly programmer :p :D

Dellit Tandannon
August 24th, 2001, 04:54 PM
oh, and time to get back on topic......

i personally think that regardless of whatever you call yourself, you're still the same thing, so what in the gods' names does it matter?!

Illuminatus
August 24th, 2001, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Dellit Tandannon


<complete sarcasm>
are you saying that you're a 1 and i'm a 0?!?!?!
that offends me! you're alive and i'm dead, or you're positive and i'm negative, or you're smart and i'm stupid. how dare you!
</complete sarcasm>

hehehehe, silly programmer :p :D

Heh heh let's ask Pheonix if there is a freudian element to this 1 and 0 analogy.. hm.. none that seems TOO obvious!

- Ill

Myst
August 24th, 2001, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Dellit Tandannon


<complete sarcasm>
are you saying that you're a 1 and i'm a 0?!?!?!
that offends me! you're alive and i'm dead, or you're positive and i'm negative, or you're smart and i'm stupid. how dare you!
</complete sarcasm>

hehehehe, silly programmer :p :D

Maybe he means he's skinny and straight and you're round :D

Tigerwallah
August 24th, 2001, 09:27 PM
In many Nations in Africa, Female castration is performed to remove the sexual pleasure a woman feels and to subjugate her to the men.

In many nations in the Middle East, women are treated as property, forced to keep themselves covered, and murdered if they show any signs of sexual independence or strength. I work for an Iranian man who tells me that my strength would cause me to be stoned in his country. He isn't kidding.

Perhaps we enjoy more equality here than many other nations, but it is interesting to note that that has only been true since around 1950. Egyptian women enjoyed more freedoms than American woman up until then.

Yes, there are many political parties, but as we all know, if you aren't supported by either Democrat or Republican parties you don't have a snowballs chance in Hades of winning, unless, like Ross Perot, you are a billionaire. Maybe Oprah could become president, but you're average Harvard or Yale graduate making 200,000 a year will never get the National recognition needed to get themselves on the ballot.

As for whining...

I daresay that at one time, our founding fathers did a lot to promote their ideas of succession from England. I also suppose England said that they were just whining.

I'm sure men said that about Susan B. Anthony when she whined her way to sufferage rights for women.

I could go on, but I think you get my point. By the way, if you met me, you would never accuse me of whining.

Dellit Tandannon
August 24th, 2001, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven


Maybe he means he's skinny and straight and you're round :D

*gasp* are you calling me fat?!?!?!
8O 8O 8O 8O

MistOfTheSea86
August 25th, 2001, 12:08 AM
your not fat!!!!!!!!:) I think u are well built:)

Daniel
August 25th, 2001, 08:05 AM
Wow. Eight pages. I guess I'm a little late in arriving to this discussion. I'll make several points real fast, because if I elaborated the way I usually do, I'd probably crash the server.

ONE

I'm quite fond of vagainas. In my neck of the woods they're a delicacy. Besides, it's hard to hate that which gave me life.

TWO

I realize Mol did his "Rule #2" thing, but to be perfectly frank it amazed me that nobody else (except for Illuminatus) said a word about the blatent calling of names that took place in the beginning of the thread. I'm also amazed that those posts haven't been edited or deleted, as per the new rules. Those responsible -- both for perpetrating it and letting it go -- should apologize to Illuminatus.

I mean, for crying out loud, he follows ERIS. It's his JOB to make trouble. Relax.

THREE

As a writer (and by no means the only one here), I am of the personal opinion that dictionary definitions only serve to offer us all a common usage for words. Words can be used according to such a definition, but they can be used in a manner that completely contradicts the conventional meaning, is suggestive, is vulgar, and so on.

For example, the word "hole." I don't have to go any further there.

The history of a particular word can be very ammusing to know, especially if you use that history to put a new twist on a word that has been given a different, 'modern' definition. Sort of like an inside joke that only well-read people get.

As such, it is my opinion that one need not dwell on where a word came from, what it used to mean, and so on. It's not about what it once stood for, but for what it stands for now -- something that relies on a shared social evolution, and the context in which it is used.

Of course, I'm sure if an abolitionist were yanked back from the other side and told that (at least in my experience) young black men often called one another "niggah" affectionately, they'd either die of shock or start crying. Or maybe they'd laugh. It depends on how much you gave them to drink beforehand.

FOUR

I have an uncle who is, for the time being, a divorced father of 6 kids. He got his divorce five years ago. His ex-wife is supposed to pay him $25 in child support every week. Believe it or not, she's STILL a deadbeat mom.

IN CONCLUSION

1) Women are tread upon every day.
2) Men are tread upon every day.
3) People are tread upon every day.
4) Anybody who is interested in improving the plight of those who are tread upon should, in my opinion, find something (more constructive than inventing new words) to do about it.
5) Deadbeat moms are bad.
6) Vaginas are good.
7) If we legalized marijuana, the world would be a happier place.

FINI

Xois
August 25th, 2001, 08:13 AM
f a women is taking care of a small child, they may qualify for the WIC program. No similar program exists for a man with a small child. When my ex-wife had custody of the girls, the system bent over backwards to help her. For a man, nothing

EP you have totally vindicated my point...this is it exactally...there isn't enough government support for paternity leave, job sharing, or government support programs to encourage men to want to stay home and raise children...

That does, in fact, speak to the basic inequality in the system...and in doing so, it creates an expectation that men aren't to do that...

That is exactally what I am saying...

Cheers
Xois

Xois
August 25th, 2001, 08:18 AM
i personally think that regardless of whatever you call yourself, you're still the same thing, so what in the gods' names does it matter?!

I think this is an oversimplification

you don't call yourself christian, becuase you are NOT christian


Words have power, as a pagan, I really believe this is true, as a student of literature and language, i KNOW its true...

it does matter, if it didn't we would have no language at all.

Xois
August 25th, 2001, 08:23 AM
4) Anybody who is interested in improving the plight of those who are tread upon should, in my opinion, find something (more constructive than inventing new words) to do about it.

Understanding the fundamentals of the nature of language is very important. Apart from air and water, language is something one is completely immersed in...

And besides, making up new words is fun....You Snarf! ;)



The history of a particular word can be very ammusing to know, especially if you use that history to put a new twist on a word that has been given a different, 'modern' definition

As a person who studies words, I simple can't agree with you...understanding the evolution or etymology of a word is a window on our past and history! Its much more significant than an inside joke!

Cheers
Xois

Daniel
August 25th, 2001, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Xois


Understanding the fundamentals of the nature of language is very important. Apart from air and water, language is something one is completely immersed in...

And besides, making up new words is fun....You Snarf! ;)
Absolutely true, on both counts. My only point there is one that has (sadly) been made and reiterated previously -- there are other ways to make changes to our society that are more substantive and lasting than inventing new words.


Originally posted by Xois


As a person who studies words, I simple can't agree with you...understanding the evolution or etymology of a word is a window on our past and history! Its much more significant than an inside joke!Ah yes, past and history. Past and history are very honorable, educational persuits. Unfortunately, I have far too much on my plate to do anything but entertain the history of words beyond the ammusement value of such research.

History is significant, without a doubt. Without our past (personal or otherwise), we aren't anything but animalistic beasties living only in the present and never considering the future. At the same time, however, the use and evolution of words should not be RESTRICTED by the past, either.

We should not, in other words, be spurred to invent a new word to replace another word that has a history we don't like, even though we don't use that word in such a context. Words mean what we make them mean. Several Women have said here that they're proud to be a woman -- that 'woman' is a title of pride.

Since it's attitudes we're trying to change, shouldn't we simply change our own attitudes and word usage? Others will follow suit simply by virtue of example -- even if it doesn't happen quickly enough for our own tastes.

Swanspirit
August 27th, 2001, 12:37 PM
Throughout this entire thread


""........absolutely true, on both counts. My only point there is one that has
(sadly) been made and reiterated previously -- there are other
ways to make changes to our society that are more substantive and
lasting than inventing new words. ""
ONe of the MOST redundant themes that hasn't even been mentioned is that part of the WOMENS WOMUNS WOMBINS movement ... was the unique distinction of having the decision making process entirely OUR OWN ........having been told in the past that we could not THINK AND DECIDE without having a MAN or MEN to tell us, guide us, or "prevent us from doing something bad stupid or hasty or whatever "
We have been derided and called stupid ( and a lot worse) for doing things we KNOW will help us because we are making those decisions and if it isnt apparent to everyone immediatley , well .... I think we are accustomed to that .....
When we wanted the VOTE there were men and women alike who were violently opposed to the idea that women could make these important decisions ......
So I think womun making decisions for womun is a wonderful thing , call it what you will.....
spell it; however you like ; on what ever occasion you like , and it seesm to me it pushes some peoples buttons so let it...... maybe they need pushed LOL
Love and Light
Swannie

slvr_phoenix
August 27th, 2001, 02:32 PM
Hey Xois, snarf is a word already, and a pretty cool one at that. :)

And Swannie, food for thought: If an empowered minority fights for something that the majority of who they claim to represent doesn't even want, who are they really fighting for?

I'm not saying that the woman's movement was a bad thing, because I believe in equal rights. And a lot of women (and even men) wanted women to have equal rights. So in the past it was a worthy cause to rally for.

But now, in America at least, there are 'equal' rights. The war was won. Yet still some campaign on. Who are they campaigning for? When does it end?

slvr_phoenix
August 27th, 2001, 02:34 PM
And I still have yet to see any reasonable explanation for why the word womyn. Heh heh heh. Does anyone like the word? And if so, why?

Swanspirit
August 27th, 2001, 03:13 PM
the "WAR" being won is only YOUR opinion
#1 that it is a WAR
#2 That it is won ........ neither of which I care to enter into dialogue about in order to keep aforesaid redundancy to a minimum, but leave you to your own machinations and considerations on that :> opinions being what they are 8O
Love and Light
Swannie

Earth Walker
August 27th, 2001, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by slvr_phoenix
Hey Xois, snarf is a word already, and a pretty cool one at that. :)

And Swannie, food for thought: If an empowered minority fights for something that the majority of who they claim to represent doesn't even want, who are they really fighting for?

I'm not saying that the woman's movement was a bad thing, because I believe in equal rights. And a lot of women (and even men) wanted women to have equal rights. So in the past it was a worthy cause to rally for.

But now, in America at least, there are 'equal' rights. The war was won. Yet still some campaign on. Who are they campaigning for? When does it end?

Yes, we womyn/women have made great strides in gaining our
rights, but we still have a long way to go....and it is not only a
battle for our rights, but a battle for the rights of ALL people,
First Nations...Blacks....Poor & Homeless, etc., and now with
Dufus the Goofus in the White House, we have all the more
reason to step up our fight for the rights of ALL people!!!!!

Myst
August 28th, 2001, 02:47 AM
Simple answer. Move to Canada.:smoke:

slvr_phoenix
August 28th, 2001, 02:10 PM
I'll readily agree that there are other peoples to 'fight' for. Though then, it becomes an equal-rights movement instead of a women's-rights movement, so it can't really be called feminism anymore.

As for fighting for the women of other countries, I think it can be arguable whether it should be done or not. I think it entirely depends on if the women from said country actually want equal rights and are willing to stand up for themselves.

But in the US, I'd like to see a list of rights that women don't have, but men do. Just how much is there left for women to fight for in the US? I ask this question not to prove a point, but merely because I'd like to know the answer.

Earth Walker
August 28th, 2001, 02:18 PM
I don't know about the U.S., but we womyn are still fighting
for full rights.....a good example is that for every dollar a man
makes, we make 0.69 cents.....and there are other issues as
well.

Let's fight the good fight!!!:dis:

Earth Walker
August 28th, 2001, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Willow Raven
Simple answer. Move to Canada.:smoke:

While Canada is nowhere as bad as the U.S., in racial, gender,
religious, etc., intolerance; we have our problems in those areas
too.....but yes, life is generally good up here.

P.S. Wanna see my igloo?;) hehehe:wave: :wave: :wave:

Swanspirit
August 28th, 2001, 02:54 PM
Merry Merry,
I am going to respond to the former question with an answer that is as clear as and as sincere as can be..... and then I leave the rest of the questions to be answered by the
questioner .. because if you deeply and sincerely want to know you have the resources available to you to find out .
First let me point out that having rights "legally" does not always equate to having them available , and that every woman does not have the resources available to "stand up for herself " , so just saying well they should stand up for themselves IMHO doesnt carry much insight .
( I am remindded here of a BLIND POOR WOMAN I cared for once in a clinic ..... pregnant with her third child asking for INFORMATION on abortion, and the arrogant male doctor who would not so much as answer her questions, which I did so she would at least know how much time she had to make a decision )
But the WORD womyn I believe is the effort of women to CEASE TO DEFINE THEMSELVES IN MENS AND SOCIETIES TERMS to see themselves differently AND SEPARATELY , not to separate themselves but to define their own woman hood as individuals ..... and get away from the barbie doll housewife or any other stereotype yes even DUMB BLOND ( blond stereotype as the epitome of femininity ?and thus stupid ?.. women didnt think of that one!!!!)
So you can ridicule this answer; or debate it all you want , but that doesnt change the fact that as a tool for the end which I have stated , using the word womyn has an effective meaning and place .
Love and Light of Understanding
Swanitude :> :7

Daniel
August 29th, 2001, 10:31 AM
I do not believe that, at its core, our society is a "man's" society. Outwardly, it would most certainly appear so, I wholeheartedly agree. On the other hand, it is also my firm belief that women run this entire planet behind the scenes.

I hold this beleif for two simple reasons:

1. There are more women than men registered to vote here in the United States. A concerted effort by the 'oppressed' would upend politics as we know it here, so it seems obvious to me that either the women of this country are intellectually lazy or have made a choice.
2. Women hold absolute control over how often we in America reproduce, and court decisions have again and again upheld that even a prepubsecent teenager can get an abortion without parental consent. In short, women but have to realize that their greatest power is to simply say 'no'.

'No' has ended war. 'No' buys refrigerators and so forth. 'No' moves mountains.

'No' buts about it.

slvr_phoenix
August 29th, 2001, 11:54 AM
Heh heh. Daniel, you do have good points. :) And that's exactly one of the greatest mystifying things anyone could bring up, is that if there are more women voters than men, then why aren't there women in power protecting women's rights? Women hold the power to achive whatever they want. All they have to do is give a little effort.

Mystique, while I've seen the so-called 'studies' (which the actual value of is very debatable for reasons already given), that still doesn't constitute a lack of a right.

The ONLY thing keeping a woman from earning as much as a man is her acceptance of a lower wage. If a woman refuses to accept a lower wage, she WILL find a job of equal pay to any man. So I submit that the difference in pay is NOT a lack of rights in the US, NOR a lack of equality in the US, but simply a lack of backbone in the women to stand up for themselves.

Men refuse to accept lower pay. Men ask for/demand raises. Men threaten to leave the company. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it even gets them fired. But men aren't willing to accept anything less than what they're worth, and are willing to go through hard times if that's what is required to stand up for themselves.

The only thing stopping a woman from doing the same is herself.

That's my point. That's how things look to me. It's not that women don't have equal rights in the US. It's that women aren't willing to stand up for themselves to demand things like equal pay and equal treatment. They want the results without the effort or risks.

Swanspirit, I'm sorry to see you bow out of this discussion, but so be it. I however have to disagree with some things you've said. Hopefully someone else will take up the debate with me over them for you, with you leaving and all.


So you can ridicule this answer; or debate it all you want I don't often ridicule people's answers. (I try not to, unless they're just REALLY deserving of ridicule.) I will however now gladly debate it. Thank you for your acceptance that this is a debate. :)

In the US, having rights legally ARE having them available. If rights are infringed upon, lawyer services can be obtained from the government FOR FREE. Sure, it involves waiting, but it is available. Further, for anyone who takes the time to look, in many law suits a lawyer will represent a client without a retainer fee, but instead of an agreement of a percentage (usually a high one) of the compensation for damages awarded to the client.

So anyone (in the US at least) who has legal rights but won't fight for them, is to me, a fool who get what they deserve. They have options to fight for those rights at little or no cost to them. So if they ALLOW someone to take away their rights, instead of standing up for themself, then they deserve what they get.

And in most cases, just the THREAT of persuing legal action is enough to ensure that your rights are upheld.


I am remindded here of a BLIND POOR WOMAN I cared for once in a clinic ..... pregnant with her third child asking for INFORMATION on abortion, and the arrogant male doctor who would not so much as answer her questions1) What in the world was she doing getting herself pregnant if she didn't WANT the child? Especially if it's with her THIRD child. It's not like she can use the excuse of, "I didn't know it would get me pregnant."
2) Did this woman once demand that the 'arrogant male doctor' inform her? Or did she just LET him walk all over her?
3) Did this woman even once threaten legal action if the doctor didn't do his job and help her?

Since you're leaving this conversation, obviously you won't answer these questions. But sometimes it's the questions themselves that are far more valuable than the answers. I believe in this case it is especially true.


But the WORD womyn I believe is the effort of women to CEASE TO DEFINE THEMSELVES IN MENS AND SOCIETIES TERMS to see themselves differently AND SEPARATELYTHESE things I know. But your eloquent answer still fails to explain just what is so special about using the word womyn, instead of something like womoon, wombin, etc., etc. My question is not about why the act is taken, but about why that specific word is used. For which I still hear no answers.

Myst
August 29th, 2001, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by slvr_phoenix
1) What in the world was she doing getting herself pregnant if she didn't WANT the child? Especially if it's with her THIRD child. It's not like she can use the excuse of, "I didn't know it would get me pregnant."
2) Did this woman once demand that the 'arrogant male doctor' inform her? Or did she just LET him walk all over her?
3) Did this woman even once threaten legal action if the doctor didn't do his job and help her?


I was thinking the same. If I was in her situation - wait, I wouldn't have been. If I was blind, poor, and had two children I'd stop having sex if need be to protect the kids I already have. If I was, however, I wouldn't have let the doctor walk all over me like that, I would've screamed at him till he smartened up, or got a new doctor, or spoken to someone else who could help (which evidently the woman did anyway). Furthermore, there's still adoption to think of, so it's not like the woman's world collapsed.

Everyone has choices on how to handle what they're given. You can vote women into the office. You can demand better pay. You can prove you're more capable then another man, and demand recognition for it or leave the company. You don't have to use a new word to define yourself, or use a word defined by woman instead of man - you coexist with man, couldn't exist without man, and are already separate from man whether woman or womyn or wombin. To me expecting to change a word and expecting all other women to spell it differently and expecting that to change your life is expecting far too much from far too many things other then yourself. Obviously it's been touted as an answer, but it's not the best answer, regardless of the etymology behind it.

Illuminatus
August 29th, 2001, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by slvr_phoenix
Men refuse to accept lower pay. Men ask for/demand raises. Men threaten to leave the company. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it even gets them fired. But men aren't willing to accept anything less than what they're worth, and are willing to go through hard times if that's what is required to stand up for themselves.

<Tag In!>

That whole "Women make .69 cents for every dollar a man makes" is a statistic taken WAY out of context. Remember, that the wage gap is also a result of the fact that men bring more to the work force. Generally they are better educated, and don't quit halfway through their career to have children.

My Mom was really PO'd that she couldn't retire from her job after 25 years with the rest of the people who started working there from her college's founding. But she took three years off and did a few more half-time to give birth to my sister and me. We have three young mothers here at my company, and they all work three days a week, if that. And they don't stay late weekdays or come in during the weekends and go the extra mile when necessary like the rest of us. The single women however, well they work just as hard as the men, and compensated appropriately. Anyway, Mom did stick around another 4 years and had her tenure bought out for an obscene compensation package, just like her male cronies. Women can do anything they want. All there is to it is just to do it!

Don't forget to factor in the women who had children at a very young age, instead of going to college like my Mom wisely did. That's where the true wage gap comes from, these women who could have tripled their earning potential but instead raised a family, ending up working low-wage jobs for the rest of their lives. She could have worked for 10.50 an hour for her entire life, but since she got scholarships and went all the way through grad school, she retired with a salary well beyond 80k, and great benefits.

So there you go. Women: Not empowered? Look in a mirror!

- Illuminatus!

<tag out! take it away pheonix>

slvr_phoenix
August 29th, 2001, 03:10 PM
Yay Willow Raven! :)
And THAT is what being a strong person is about. You MAKE things happen. :)

Swanspirit
August 29th, 2001, 03:14 PM
BLIND POOR ( Ghetto poor ) and RAPED....... she was so afraid to ask .... maybe her minister would have cut off her little bit of aid from the church if he found out ; maybe she was abused so badly as a child or neglected she didnt know how to speak up ; she was so soft spoken and fearful and already crying , and that doctor just screamed at her and walked out of the cubicle ..but you see .... she couldnt SEE which way he went ..........glad there was a womyn there to help her ........
gee glad you guys werent there is all I have to say ......:woah: :woah:
Love and Light
Swannie

slvr_phoenix
August 29th, 2001, 03:16 PM
Darn straight Illuminatus. And some very good points as well. :)

I'd add to this all if I could even think of anything else to add. Heh heh. But what else can be said?

Myst
August 29th, 2001, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Swanspirit
BLIND POOR ( Ghetto poor ) and RAPED....... she was so afraid to ask .... maybe her minister would have cut off her little bit of aid from the church if he found out ; maybe she was abused so badly as a child or neglected she didnt know how to speak up ; she was so soft spoken and fearful and already crying , and that doctor just screamed at her and walked out of the cubicle ..but you see .... she couldnt SEE which way he went ..........glad there was a womyn there to help her ........
gee glad you guys werent there is all I have to say ......:woah: :woah:

Oy vey.

Yeah and she asked someone else for help and got it. And if she didn't, she could've switched doctors, continued asking until someone could help her, or put the baby up for adoption. She found the answer, dealt with the problem, and probably doesn't wake up every morning crying because that doctor didn't tell her.

Was it a good experience? No, of course not. But the onus was on her to take control and fix the situation and she did.

If anything it further suggests that women are perfectly capable of stepping up to the plate and taking control even in the most dire circumstances, regardless of men.

slvr_phoenix
August 29th, 2001, 03:25 PM
Swannie, don't get me wrong. The doctor was clearly wrong to have acted that way. I don't condone it and it saddens me to think that the people responsible for 'healing' us can even act like that. But then, I lost my faith in doctors (at least in the US) long ago. So while it saddens me, it doesn't surprise me.

That aside though, even if she was raped, she's not the only one in the world to have been so. When crap happens, there are generally two paths you can take. You can let yourself be a victim and let it haunt you and weaken you. Or, you can refuse to be a victim, deal with it, get over it, learn from it, and let it strengthen you.

As having had penty of crap thrown my way and getting over it and learning from it, I really hold little to no sympathy for those who let events destroy their lives. We CHOOSE to be a victim or a victor. And it's NOT a lesson that has to be taught by someone else. It's a lesson that our own hearts already know, and we can either listen to it, or ignore it.

Dellit Tandannon
August 29th, 2001, 08:21 PM
Why Womyn?

perhaps you feel you better then men and most other women so in order to distinguish yourself from other women, you act in a way you feel is defiant to society's norm. this is not true of all feminists, but most of the ones i have met were not for equality, they were for superiority, because they were so much better then men because men were stupid and useless. its nice to have your own opinion, but screw you! i am a man, i am not stupid, i am not useless, and i am not biased! i am not part of a superior gender, and neither are you! we are equal in my eyes. on a slightly random note, i once held a door for a woman and she yelled at me! she said the only reason i held the door for her was because i thought she was weak and she couldn't do it herself because she was a woman. arg! i try to be polite and i get yelled at?!?! what is wrong with people? are they so caught up in their own self-consciousness that really think the world hates them? and where could you possibly get something like that from an act of kindness?! the few psycho feminists that i have run into completely destroyed any respect i had for their whole purpose.

and to clarify things even further, regardless of what it is that you call yourself or how you spell it, you're still the same thing.

Daniel
August 29th, 2001, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Dellit Tandannon

On a slightly random note, i once held a door for a woman and she yelled at me! she said the only reason i held the door for her was because i thought she was weak and she couldn't do it herself because she was a woman. arg! i try to be polite and i get yelled at?!?! what is wrong with people?For me, it's not even a matter of manners. My thinking is very simple -- I am holding the door for you because I care about you enough to give two hoots about your convienance. Take it as a compliment, not as a threat to your independance, because if you did the same for me I'd be grateful.

As far as I'm concerned, she who assumes that such consideration is in fact an accusation of weakness is in fact weak and knows it. The result is that the least little thing that reminds her of this inner weakness ignites a rather strong reaction.

Tigerwallah
August 30th, 2001, 09:34 PM
The door thing is going way too far. Hey, I love it when men hold doors for me. I love it when they open car doors, pay for dinner, etc. I will reciprocate though.

I once yelled at a man for trying to help me up when I tripped. It wasn't the feminist thing. It was that I hate to be touched by anyone. I'm really into my personal space and freedom, and lose it when I feel violated. I was in the process of getting up when he grabbed my arm, pretty forcably and started pulling me to my feet. I felt bad about yelling at him, but it was reflexive.

SpikesPet5150
August 30th, 2001, 09:38 PM
I probably would have reacted the same way, Tiger. I hate that when someone you don't know touches you. It creeps me out. He should have said, "Would you like help up?" or "Can I help you?" not just grabbed you. I had a guy at a party hug me, right as I walked through the door, and i didn't know him. I pushed him over cause it freaks me out.
~Bree

Myst
August 31st, 2001, 06:39 AM
Women's empowerment is about women taking and using their own power. Not about them getting faced with tough situations or men screwing them over - but them learning to deal with what they're handed as well as any man. If some guy treats me like crap because I'm female I'm liable to think he's a jerk and step on his toes (figuratively or literally). At the same time, I wouldn't date a man who didn't care enough about my well being or respect me enough to open doors and pull out chairs for me.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I think that's what men should do for friends, lovers, or even just strangers on the street. My fiance is also expected to check the locks at night and take out the garbage as well as do maintenance of the apartment (ie. fix stuff or call someone who can), because that's what my dad did. Does that mean I can't do that stuff? Uh no. Does that mean he won't also do the dishes and laundry once in awhile? No. I guess I just don't necessarily see gender differences as bad unless they are absolutely imposed on me...

And I always get a strange look when I open the door for someone, tho I really appreciate the fact that my fiance tends to open it for everyone.

Adam Of Avalon
October 14th, 2001, 11:04 AM
I don't promote the battle of the sexes. Nor do I care how the word "woman" is spelled. (As long as it's readable.) :)

Both genders are on the same footing, no matter how you slice it. I see no point in one sex proving superiority over the other. As the Pagan community, we realize that man and woman are equal because they are both forms of the Higher Power. Not only this, but they should work together to attain what they want.

Shy Hawk
October 14th, 2001, 11:29 PM
I'm a chick or a broad....

No, I'm not clouded by my instilled weakness.....but terms...labels....whatever you want don't mean much too me.

As far as weakness goes, you are as weak as you want to be. Heck, I'm as physically strong as anybody, and if you don't believe me, I'll armwrestle you quiet ;). I know my rights...and I fight for what I don't think is fair. I think you can only be stepped on if you are willing to lie on the floor and be stepped on.

With that said, no, I'm not a feminist. I like equality...nobody is better than anybody else. Different perhaps.

I'm a warrior...I will never make a man fight for me. Instead, if worse comes to worse, I will stand next to him and fight along his side.

But, if you like to wear an apron and heels, don't want to be a part of the work force....well that's your perrogative. I'm sick of hearing that stay at home moms need to be liberated. Not specifically by anyone here but...in general. Anyone can stay at home with children, cook and clean, if that's what they are good at, if that's what they like.....and I know some great stay at home dads.

By the by, I am so tired of hearing about how Muslim men oppress their wives.... Yes, a woman will be beaten in the middle of the street for flirting in Saudi Arabia. However, guess what....so will a man. It's sexuality in general that is frowned upon, not womanhood.

Hope I got everything....
~Shy

PS I'm the kinda girl who likes to fight a guy before I'll date him. Is that unusual? :lol:

Myst
October 14th, 2001, 11:35 PM
Well said Shy :)

You always say something simple yet so very true and succinct.

And I always nod my head and say "right on!", even when I disagree with you. Though I don't this time anyway. :)

Shy Hawk
October 15th, 2001, 12:50 AM
Well met Myst.

.......who's my buddy? :D

Xander67
October 15th, 2001, 12:57 AM
I guess I am old fashioned, but I think women are the best thing that could have ever happened to men...

after all, if it werent for women, none of us would be here! yeah yeah i can hear the "it takes two comments" but let me just say that , if you look at Cosmic Law.... the only way to legally enter this realm is to be born of a woman's womb! every myth, every culture...they all show of a "promised one being born of a chosen woman" so I say Heck yes, Open doors for them, bring them flowers, help them around the house..Love them and cherrish them...read them poetry...NEVER raise your hand to her, and never take her for granted........ alot of women tell me Im too nice and i should be rude to women, well if that is what it takes to get a woman to like me, then I guess I will be alone for a while...

Shy Hawk
October 15th, 2001, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Xander67
...NEVER raise your hand to her

I know I'm gonna get bitten for this one....

But, if I up and slap some dude, I should hope he isn't afraid to slap me back, just cause I'm a chick. I would be mad insulted if someone said to me, "you're lucky I don't hit girls".....and you can bet I'm gonna say "take your best shot". May the Gods help whatever PERSON I get into a scuffle with....

However....you do sound like a nice guy. Married? :D

Swanspirit
October 15th, 2001, 01:15 AM
If the women want to call themselves whatever they choose ...... then let them...........
It is theirs to choose and that is the point really isnt it? About having the freedom to choose......... instead of anyone deciding FOR them...........about making their OWN mistakes if that is the case........... and their own successes ........instead of being controlled and TOLD ........as they have been for so long......and if some people dont like it......... OH WELL.............maybe they need to look at their own CONTROL issues.......
Like women keeping their own name after marriage ..... again their CHOICE ...... like going to work or staying home again CHOICE not being TOLD you MUST stay home ......and that pregnant and barefoot and in the kitchen was a "womans" place some womyn decided they wanted more choices and they carry that banner for all of feminine humanity......... perhaps a little perspective would be apropos here.....
READ the GOODWIFES GUIDE published not so very long ago ........ and some will say oh it is ALL different now but is it ?? everywhere and in every case .... not true ......this mindset is still around and is very real and alive , perhaps not inthe majority anymore but with us still......all over the world
Love and light
Swannie

Xander67
October 15th, 2001, 01:16 AM
Self Defense is another issue Shy, LOL :)

Married? um actually No :) But I am 34

Yvonne Belisle
October 15th, 2001, 02:39 PM
I have seen abuse of the systems set up to protect woman and our equality too. The military is a prime example. There is no reason to lower physical capability requirements. I feel that it is unacceptable in military, firefighters, or police to have easier training. There are plenty of women capable of competing on equal ground for those jobs. Do you want a firefighter who can't do the job to be the one supossed to carry you from a burning building? How about on a war front you have been shot and the only person to carry you to the safe area is a woman who can just lift herself? I realize that currently we have not used women on the fronts but that doesn't mean we won't eventually. When last I checked women's push ups were done on thier knees I weigh 233 right now am incredably out of shape and I can do the womens pt test right now. I am not by any means fit for duty I can't do the job, but because some woman ranted and fought to get the requirements lowered if my weight was not a factor I could be that person on the front that needs to carry you back and I wouldn't be able to. There was a time when I could and when I was active duty the push ups were real push ups I personally no longer feel safe with the idea of a female soldier to protect me. I also saw women claiming that this person or that has sexually harrassed her (when they haddn't) and watched the man be assumed guily and treated acordingly because of women they lost thier jobs people because some ***** didn't like them. It goes both ways. When the women who have these advantages don't abuse them then women will have power in the meantime they serve to discust those of us who watched men fight for us to have these rights too. I for one am sick and tired of having women tell me I am not fulfilled because I don't work out of the home and I like to spoil my hubbie. Got news for people it is my right to live as I want to and if I happen to do many of the things in that *)(^& guide because I enjoy then then those who don't like it can lump it. My husband has my loyalty as long as he deserves it and he knows if he takes advantage of the fact I like doing these things that he will be doing them for himself. In the mean time we will enjoy what we have.

Swanspirit
October 15th, 2001, 02:45 PM
Who are these people that are going around saying that staying at home is unfulfilling ???
Not any feminists I KNOW ..... they all want to stay home............LOL they just want the CHOICE and freedom of having equality of pay for their sisters and when and if they should ever NEED to or change their minds........
Love and light
Swannie

Shy Hawk
October 15th, 2001, 03:57 PM
I agree that standards for men and women should be the same. What is all this bunk that a woman can't (insert any physical task here) as well as a man?
Perhaps knowing your whole life that no one wants you to hurt yourself in that big bad world stunts one's potential....not to mention that men are encouraged to weight train and compete with one another physically from childhood, while women are encouraged to do aerobics....dont want to "look to muscular" would I? Perhaps that's why most women don't lift so well....because they are only just now trying it out.
I for one love to lift weights....it's healthy besides.

Myst
October 15th, 2001, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Swanspirit
Like women keeping their own name after marriage ..... again their CHOICE ...... like going to work or staying home again CHOICE not being TOLD you MUST stay home ......and that pregnant and barefoot and in the kitchen was a "womans" place some womyn decided they wanted more choices and they carry that banner for all of feminine humanity......... perhaps a little perspective would be apropos here.....

I don't see the point of your rant here.

Yes it is a woman's choice and if her boyfriend/husband/etc. tells her she must change to his name and stay home then she is more then welcome to tell him off. I for one would be the first person to do so. What's that got to do with the spelling of a name? Woman don't need to spell a word differently to do that, they can do it now.

No one's telling them whether to spell it womyn or woman, and guess what, since I'm not standing in your home holding your keyboard hostage I can hardly force you to spell it one way can I? We share opinions here, and that's it.

That's nice you think spelling it one way is a woman's way of proving she can do whatever she pleases. For me, the fact that I will DO whatever I please and SAY whatever I please in the face of any man, at any time, anywhere, is what *proves* I can do and say whatever I please. It's not "control issues" I need to examine, it's me thinking that there's no point in spelling a word a different way. Like I said, I'm not holding anyone's keyboard hostage here, so maybe someone else needs to examine who has "control issues".

Here it IS different then half the "womyn" seem to think. *Absolutely different*. Maybe some "womyn" need to find better men to associate with or just plain well move if life is that hard for them. No man has ever implied that I should stay home and make babies, not keep my maiden name, not weight lift or do martial arts (and in fact on several occasions my fiance has told me he would enjoy it if I did body build or go to karate with him), or not be good enough to do anything any man can. If he did, I'd step on his toes happily and do it twice as well as he ever could. If a man says "you're lucky I don't hit girls" I keep hitting him until he did, or just whip his butt anyway. If any woman was with a man who did that or at a job where the boss did that it is HER responsibility to make a difference, not everyone else's to change the spelling of a word. That's MY opinion and anyone is welcome to think they don't like it anymore then I like the idea of spelling a word with a y instead of an a to make a difference.

And yes I would find home life VERY unfulfilling as would most women I know who prefer to work outside of the home. We would prefer to go out and make our money they way we like to, to meet new people and fulfill new challenges outside the home. We spend a full day at work, and still come home to make supper, watch the kids, clean the house, and do the dishes, and we don't ask for "special breaks". Some of us don't feel we need to finance breaks for women who don't want to work outside the home, because that is THEIR choice and they are more then welcome to live with it. Oh and of course I "need some perspective". It's not like my own mother, mother in law, aunts, and a cousin are stay at home moms by *choice*, without all the whining about special treatment because of it. As usual just because someone disagrees with another doesn't mean they have whatever little problems the other wants to ascribe to them.

talamh
October 15th, 2001, 06:41 PM
i think it's important to consider context before expecting a person to have the ability to claim an equality that all their life experience has told them they shouldn't expect. Some women can't refuse sex.... without being beaten up... or don't have the means to use birth control. So it's not helpful to say.. well.. why doesn't she just refuse sex??

i believe that many people of the female gender use the spelling womyn because they need to heal... so what's wrong with letting them heal? It's no skin of anyone's nose.

Gender issues are very real... but i believe men are just as trapped in their stereotype as women are in theirs. What we all need is greater understanding and compassion.... and healing. Equality is a long, slow and often painful process... ask any black person... ask any poor person... ask any minority person... ask any disabled person.

We each have our lives to live.. and it's important to chose our battles carefully. bb talamh

Myst
October 15th, 2001, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by talamh anEiac
Some women can't refuse sex.... without being beaten up... or don't have the means to use birth control. So it's not helpful to say.. well.. why doesn't she just refuse sex??

i believe that many people of the female gender use the spelling womyn because they need to heal... so what's wrong with letting them heal? It's no skin of anyone's nose.


As I was just telling my fiance "if you ever beat me up, you'd get your @$$ kicked", because if I didn't do it any one of my friends or family certainly would. Then again if I ever thought he might I certainly wouldn't be with him. He mentioned a big reason he's with me is because I won't be staying in the kitchen, barefoot making babies. That's just not the way for us.

There's nothing wrong with spelling it differently at all. Certainly I couldn't force anyone to spell anything a certain way without taking their keyboard hostage; not that I would. After all, doing things our own ways and saying as much is a big part of why we come to MW. If a woman's first step in feeling equal is spelling a word a different way well good for her; obviously the fact that I disagree should have as much meaning to her life as her feelings on it should mean to mine.

I just thought I should respond to the comments about "control issues" and needing "perspective". You are more then welcome to consider my posts as "I disagree because _________, but hey it's good to agree to disagree".

Xander67
October 15th, 2001, 09:11 PM
I think that it is sad, very sad that some people have that much hurt, that much anger, that much of a low self esteem that they have to control women like that, there are some women who are very nieve and very vulerable, but perhaps that is due to a truama in thier past... they are easy prey for the sicko's of this world and I think it is shamefull that any man would resort to mind control instead of encourageing her to let her heart decide....

I myself feel, personally, haveing a brain is important, but it is the heart that I desire in a woman, the rest is all extra bonus!

Im sure there are women out there who are not ruled by thier mind, but their heart.... they dont let anyone manipulate them, and they can see a person for who he is.. and are not tricked into the "negotiation" bit.... they say NO and mean it... and do not give room for debate...

Dellit Tandannon
October 15th, 2001, 10:25 PM
this discussion is taking an odd turn, lets try to stay on topic

Swanspirit
October 16th, 2001, 01:32 AM
"If he did, I'd step on his toes happily and do
it twice as well as he ever could. If a man says "you're lucky I don't
hit girls" I keep hitting him until he did, or just whip his butt anyway.
If any woman was with a man who did that or at a job where the
boss did that it is HER responsibility to make a difference, not
everyone else's to change the spelling of a word"
'
"dont see their femininity being represented as being able to whip someone butt....."
Perhaps they would rather use IDEAS and WORDS than hand to hand combat.....
SOME feminists would say that all you accomplish by meeting men with violence is co-opting the male paradigm of might makes right......no progress at all.......
Love and light
Swannie

Myst
October 16th, 2001, 01:43 AM
My point was not that being violent solves your problems.

My point was that I will do what I want, when I want, wherever I want, and a man in the way is not going to be for long. If he needs a slap in the face to smarten up he will get it.

And violence is not "co-opting the male paradigm of might makes right". Spend some time with the Morrigan or Artemis, Kali or Lilith,etc. and that will become very apparent.

Swanspirit
October 16th, 2001, 02:16 AM
are IMO a very superficial and brief encounter with what the essences of those dark goddesses are............Pele who destroys utterly even as she creates............among some of the others you mentioned ...... has taught me much............over years of time
but Mileage will vary.........
The depths of the dark feminine ........are thick as blood and deep as space.......
the dark that never will show its face.....
What brings you to think I havent spent time with these Goddesses.......???or others equally powerful? rather a hefty assumption......thank you for the suggestion...... however..... but using the word womyn isnt soley about force.......which might equal that of a man ......it has to do with much more than that......
Love and light
Swannie

Myst
October 16th, 2001, 02:26 AM
Did I talk about being a bully? Did I say "being a womyn is about being a bully"? Did I even say "wow Swan obviously you've never spent time with dark Goddesses"? No, I said if a man gets in my way or tries to prevent me from being a strong empowered woman he won't be for long. Meaning I defend myself, just as any of the Goddesses I mentioned do. If you call not wasting my time with a guy who thinks I should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, or not letting a guy beat me up "being a bully"...?

But thank you for the assumptions, as well.

Now perhaps we can get back on topic?

Dellit Tandannon
October 16th, 2001, 01:56 PM
hey.... swan....... why...... do...... you........ keep.......... doing....... this...... when....... its....... completely........ unnecesary?

Swanspirit
October 16th, 2001, 02:16 PM
I like it ............
why do you feel you can be completely off topic in this thread and berate people about being off topic in another ..... when in actuality they are not???
Love and ........lights in dark places
Swannie

Myst
October 16th, 2001, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Swanspirit
I like it ............
why do you feel you can be completely off topic in this thread and berate people about being off topic in another ..... when in actuality they are not???
Love and ........lights in dark places
Swannie

Because, actually, they are. When you're bickering back and forth about your assumptions for many posts instead of talking about the topic the thread was started on it's being "off topic".

Here's a hint - this is how moderators consider a thread off topic - when a thread has gone so far off topic that the members have abandoned the original thought of the thread then it is deemed "off topic", and may be moderated. When there is a couple off topic posts but the original thought of that thread has not been lost throughout, the thread is not off topic.

At any rate, perhaps you have something to add on the actual topic (it's "why womyn" btw)?

kittiepoetrygod
October 16th, 2001, 07:54 PM
I'll attempt to get back on topic, though i haven't read nor posted in here before ... perhaps i'l set us off on the right foot ... or we'll end up walking on our hands ... who knows?

I think that with the use of the word womyn, it will eventually become a label for athletic, feminist, or "non-girl" girls. I've seen it used before online .. my friend Jared said he was sorry for ... lets say stepping on ... my friend Alicia womynhood. With its use, it will eventually come to mean tomboy or lesbian. I don't see whats wrong with woman.

Dellit Tandannon
October 16th, 2001, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Myst


Because, actually, they are. When you're bickering back and forth about your assumptions for many posts instead of talking about the topic the thread was started on it's being "off topic".

Here's a hint - this is how moderators consider a thread off topic - when a thread has gone so far off topic that the members have abandoned the original thought of the thread then it is deemed "off topic", and may be moderated. When there is a couple off topic posts but the original thought of that thread has not been lost throughout, the thread is not off topic.

At any rate, perhaps you have something to add on the actual topic (it's "why womyn" btw)?

thank you myst

WtchyChick13
December 19th, 2002, 09:56 PM
I would like to second this. I've never posted in political before and maybe this is why.

Unless folks can debate intelligently, there is no reason for debating at all.

This is by far, one of the strangest topics I've seen. I'm a woman. I see no reason to change the word and while I'm for feminism to a point, to me (and this is strictly opinion here) it is because of some of these far off views that give feminism a bad rap.

I can't buy into the whole "angry woman" scenario. To me, it's a big waste of time and energy.

I'm a woman. I know how things are in the world--I'm not blind to the predjudices that are out there. But I don't feel that I need to constantly remind people of how they are. I don't need to change the spelling of a word to "prove" I believe in certain things. My opinions are my own and they are what make me, me.

I've found quite a few things said in this topic offensive and slanderous. I've seen the bashing of others because points could not be made.

There are SOOOOO many other things in this world that are worth arguing over. Or, forget arguing. Just talking is nice.




**This has been a short witch's opinion.**

Ravensnest
January 5th, 2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Tigerwallah
K, I completely agree with you in theory. In practice, however, there are enough women (perhaps they don't exist in this community) who would do nothing to help change the meaning. In my life, I have known more women who believe that they are the weaker sex. It's frightening. In order to change the definition of woman, we would all have to be on the same page. I just don't see the likelyhood of that.


I'm the complete opposite. I grew up in a very matriarchal household. My father was gone a lot overseas as was my grandfather so both my household and my grandmother's household were run by the women. Then my parents divorced when I was 14 and my mother was a single woman raising children. She was a woman in every sense of the word and a strong one. She also did things at that time that women just didn't do.. parachuted, raced stock cars, drove demolition derbies, etc.

Personally, I don't think it matters how hard you beat your chest or how you spell a word it's how you live your life that will make a difference. I think when we begin to seperate ourselves for the sake of equality we begin to shoot for something other than equality. Sort of how the non conformist becomes a conformist in their own way in an attempt to not conform. Does the way you spell a word really make a difference? I don't think so. I think you're preaching to the choir. For those who think like you do it'll be the whole "power to the people" thing. For those who don't agree with you it's not going to change their view. I suppose if one wants to change the spelling of their gender fine but, will it really make a difference? I think not.

Lamian
April 2nd, 2004, 06:07 AM
I am a proud woman.

Kadynas
April 2nd, 2004, 09:20 AM
Wow this one's an oldie! :lol:

I think the whole spelling thing was a rejection of the principlethat woman was created from man and thus inferior to him.

That said however, I consider myself a feminist, but I don't hate men either. Most feminists /don't/. We simply want equality between the sexes. Women still earn less than men for the same work and it's not right.

Dark Phoenix
April 2nd, 2004, 11:44 AM
:rolleyes: "obsess much, much to much"- Jim Carey. I think it's really a none issue although it is kinda funny like herstory it's just a little over the top.

SilverMaiden
April 2nd, 2004, 11:47 AM
I'm not that hung up on words so if someone wants to refer to me as womyn or woman, I'm cool with it. As long as it's used respectfully. :)

One of my biggest pet peeves is when people use girls/women as insults. I think it's that attitude that triggered the desire for a language change. To many men the gravest insult that can be given to them is to be called something womanly and/or femine.
"You hit like a girl"
"you run like girl"
"You cry like a woman"
"you act like a woman"

The tone and usage makes girls/women substandard to boys/men.

Marchosias
April 2nd, 2004, 05:59 PM
Eek, zombie!

Where is Bruce Campbell when you need him?

CrystalShadow
April 7th, 2004, 10:56 PM
I admit I have a few feministic tendancies but I don' change the spelling of words. I just use other words when I'm really heated like girls, or ladies. I'm going to stop myself here because I could go on a long rant but that would be bad and off topic. lol

pawnman
April 8th, 2004, 10:34 AM
I can understand what led to certain people using the spelling womyn, or wimin, or wymyn, but I think that it's silly. You better believe if someone tried to get a memo, essay, or term paper across my desk with the word wymyn in it, it would get sent right back, along with copious amounts of red ink.

lunachic420
April 9th, 2004, 01:53 AM
While I personally am not overly bothered by the word woman, I understand the reasoning behind the alternatives...woman is basically "man with womb" or "of man". I am so very musch more than either of those terms implies...My fave term is "We'Moon". It was coined by the creatrixes behind the We'Moon: Gaia Rhythms for Womyn (a wonderful calender) They put it best: " We'Moon means 'women'. Instead of defining ourselves in relation to men (as in woman or female), we use the word we'moon to define ourselves by our primary relation to the natural sources of cosmic flow." Humans are lunar primates so we of the moon makes me very happy :) And while some folks think it's silly for us to use the alternate words...I say if we can't change the definitions and implications of the old words, we need to be making up new words!
Blessed be and Namaste!

Psyche Ague
April 11th, 2004, 11:17 PM
This is right up my alley. :)

"Woman" is actually a direct descendant of the word "Wyfman," meaning "a man's wife." That's how women were described : only as the wives and mothers of men.

I object to being defined as a human only in relation to the men in my life. Of course I am my father's daughter and my boyfriend's girlfriend. Great. But I am more than that - I am myself.

I am a rabid feminist, but I believe in intrinsic equality. I don't appreciate being called a "FemiNazi" or a "Man-Hater" just because I understand that gender is a culturally-constructed idea.

It doesn't help that women are always seen as "other" in relation to men.

But I'll spare you my feminist rhetoric. "Womyn," "wimmin," any way you call us is fine by me. Just understand why.

seastone81
August 11th, 2004, 07:51 PM
Ok, my only rebuttal is for all those who think that womyn or any other variant is "silly" is to check out the follow feminist critical theorists

Julia Krestiva
Helen Cisoux


and here is my reasoning

There is an inherent underlying power structure to language. For more on this see Foucault or Chomski...

The move toward the semiotic (or music of the text) in language is because women have been strictly shut out of participating within the language power structure (its now just beginning to shift)--becuase they were shut out of formal educational opportunities really up until the 40s (the initial shift coming from the Rosie the Riviter area)--without formal educational opportunities, the literary cannon in most cultures (including western) has a greater amount of male writers...

There are several instances where the use of language is used to enforce gender roles or cultural roles...for example, the spanish word for wife also means handcuff (esposa) whereas esposo (husband) has no other meaning...

Or actor or actress---why does the "feminine" form need an added suffix...but the word was an afterthought

Or look at the different between Master and Mistress --Master means lord, Mistress means runner of a whore house.

Look at german...Junge means boy (Der Junge --Der is a masculine pronoun) But look at Maedchen (young girl) (DAS Maedchen) Das is a neuter pronoun...

Now before you say "well thats just language," remember how much of every day (especially here) we spend using that language, letting it define us and using it define others and shape our reality.

Before we can have true gender equity, we have to change the way we use language...and we have to change the way language shapes our reality.

In many ways, it starts there

Now back to womin or womyn...Although I don't use these forms myself, the are an integeral part, i believe our shifiting our conciousness...now they may eventually fall out of fashion, but they will leave their mark on our texts, and that is the important thing!

I mean look how we as Pagans and Witches shape power with language (through chants etc...) Creating our will and voiceing to make it real...this is the same thing...its a sort of magick (I think anyway...)

Cheers
Xois
*nods* geez were you in the same classes as me or what? :p

Aconite
June 14th, 2005, 12:53 AM
Could care less..

Im jsut me.

I don't think of myself as a teenage girl, or a woman, im jsut the opposite of a boy - J off My first Mister

Ceres
June 14th, 2005, 08:04 AM
Well, I just couldnt get the "an" spelling BUT I do think there is whole unexplored area of psychology because men clearly suffer from uterine envy :-P

WhyAngelsFall
October 5th, 2005, 09:34 PM
All I have to say can be summed up in two words: Positive Affirmations.

For more, read on.

Let’s talk about CONNOTATION: “Fireman”, “Policeman,” “Postman,” and “Bag-boy”

vs.

“Firefighter,” “Police Officer,” “Postal Worker,” and “Bagger.”

What does your mind conjure up when you say these things? Answer: They can be either sex, damn it. And when they can be either sex without a STIGMA, what happens? More women in the field!

STIGMA, STIGMA, STIGMA!!!


That is the power of language. If language had no effect on people than Positive Affirmations wouldn’t work. Think about it!

---


This is a paraphrase from a linguistics book that’s floating around my house… somewhere:

[QUOTE]
“I don’t understand these ladies over here in America. They have this stigma against being called women. Always they refer to themselves as “Ladies.” When I asked the difference I was told that Ladies were proper, Women were whores.

These American ladies did not want to be associated with women. Which very much confuses me – would these ladies be surprised to know that Joan of Arc, Catherine the Great and the Queen of England were all in fact, women?”
</QUOTE>

And this paraphrase is from the 1920s, so don't get on my back about it. But it does beg the question of "Why would people say one or the other? Why change it?"

Think of the word “Feminist.”

Feminism: 1.Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

And yet while most people I know believe in equal rights, they will NOT use the word Feminist.

Hmmmm....

Excerpt from http://www.iwf.org/inkwell/default.asp?archiveID=788 (http://www.iwf.org/inkwell/default.asp?archiveID=788)

<blockquote>
"I’ve never felt welcomed by feminists, yet I’ve been attacked when I used the phrase ’I’m not a feminist, but..." as though I had spat upon the efforts made by previous generations of women. (And if a person looks at history, even a little bit, we do have a whole lot to thank those women for.) Yet if I had a ’non-feminist’ view, then it was because it was given me by men and could not possibly be because I thought about the issues on my own. If I wasn’t angry, then it was because I was happily dominated. he world is indeed an interesting place if the only time I’ve been talked down to and so blatantly ’little woman’-ed was by another woman….

….Let me assure you, J.P., that the IWF was founded by and for women just like you. We’re feminists, but not in the sense that has given feminism such a bad name that the vast majority of American women refuse to call themselves feminists. We believe in equal opportunities for women--but not in nanny-state protective programs that we think insult women by assuming that they’re frail flowers who can’t thrive without a Big Strong Government. And we think that you can be a feminist without signing on to the left-liberal program that groups that NOW and the Million Moms push. And yes, I’ve been patronized by the feminist establishment myself, and believe me, it feels just as demeaning as being patronized by a "little woman" kind of man. So that’s why we call ourselves the "Independent" Women’s Forum--and welcome, J.P.
</blockquote>

Protagonist
October 5th, 2005, 09:57 PM
Why use the word "womyn" rather than woman? Why, to be edgy and postmodern! U myght also wysh 2b ekwally creatyve w/ othyr wyrds, and to wyr blaque and hayve a moody deadjourynyl.

wolf
October 5th, 2005, 10:00 PM
I am an original equipment owner/operator of a vagina and I think the whole womyn/wimmen/herstory/thealogy thing is a load of pretentious crap (which is what the initials P.C. really stand for).

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Protagonist
October 5th, 2005, 10:06 PM
I am an original equipment owner/operator of a vagina and I think the whole womyn/wimmen/herstory/thealogy thing is a load of pretentious crap (which is what the initials P.C. really stand for).

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Shame on you! Shame!

That gives pretention a bad name. Pretention is respectable. P.C. stands for "policed conciousness."

charmedkisses1
October 5th, 2005, 10:15 PM
It's woman.

So the word has history? What's wrong with that? What's wrong with being a man's wife? Who the hell cares? And why must we replace everything with a "y"?

aluokaloo
October 6th, 2005, 11:26 AM
I have difficulty calling myself woman, I prefer chick. Largely because I feel I haven't aged a day over my 16th birthday. (Douses silver with flamin' hot chili from Texas) ;)

BlueMoon13
October 6th, 2005, 02:11 PM
I am an original equipment owner/operator of a vagina and I think the whole womyn/wimmen/herstory/thealogy thing is a load of pretentious crap (which is what the initials P.C. really stand for).

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
:rollingla :rollingla :rollingla :rollingla :rollingla :rollingla :rollingla ......and here I thought I was the only one who felt that way! Prepare to be karmelised!

Calen
October 6th, 2005, 06:01 PM
I don't have a problem with people using the term 'womyn' if they really want to, but I don't feel the need. I feel quite empowered enough just being a 'woman'.

Salanthos
November 6th, 2005, 04:00 AM
to answer the original question, probably because wymyn is much more differentiated visually than womun or other alternatives - looking at the three words- women womun wymyn- in a quick read over wymyn is spotted quicker because the dimensions are diffrent - y extends below, which none of the other letters in the word do.

that being said, I think its silly, much like the use of herstory or thealogy. I think that usage is divisive - it breaks a single category into many, in this case those who use it and those who don't.

I, myself, practice inclusiveness. I use 'god' to refer to both male and female dieties, for example, she is the god of ... whichever, and I use hero to be someone who did something great, not as gender- oriented. I don't use heroine(which always sounded like heroin to me) a term which includes -man or -boy should be changed to make it inclusive, like fireman to firefighter. but I would still think it is silly for someone else to say that because fighter was used for male fighters, that a new term firefightress or firefightrine should be used for a female firefighter.

to me, using seperate words indicates seperate standards - that's why I prefer inclusiveness. all people should be held to the same standards if they want the same things. someone previously mentioned in the physical areas, women had lighter standards than men for jobs like firefighting or army. its true, women are diffrent than men, but any woman is diffrent from any other woman, too. if its a diffrent standard, its a diffrent job. for example, I was a heck of a lot stronger than all the other girls in my gym class - when we did weight training, I could do 9-10 times more weight. thus I would be better qualified for somthing that required physical work. If I had ever decided to work out seriously, I would have been the equal of any boy in the class (I was already stronger in some ways than some of them). it would be hypocritical to demand equal benefits without equal standards(talking mostly about physical, I don't know enough about other standards to judge).

sorry, I know I got a little... well, a lot OT - its just, when I read through all the posts I kept getting ideas and one idea led to the next, and next thing you know you've read all through my long and somewhat rambling post...

Jenne
November 6th, 2005, 04:04 AM
labels shmables.

Usually, they are used *dons linguistic hat quickly* to signify various attributes commonly associated with said label.

That being said...have no problem with "wymyn"...just not a part of the attributable artifacts in mindset, if not in history/herstory. *shrug* I am ever the fence-sitter y'all.

Happy Shrew
November 6th, 2005, 03:55 PM
Well, I just couldnt get the "an" spelling BUT I do think there is whole unexplored area of psychology because men clearly suffer from uterine envy :-P

The only discussion of this in psychology that I know of was a satirical piece making fun of Freud. Please tell me what I'm missing. :)

And I'm a LADY, thank you very much. Never found the whole y obsession in general to be a good thing... so many decent first names turned all spiky and eyecrossing.