Karmic debt

[ladyrowan]

I came across this quote in another thread, and it's confused me a bit.

quote:
"Many cultures believe that you can assume someone elses karmic debt. Isn't that what Jesus was supposed to have done? "


I've always though of karma as a 'personal' thing to work through, can't really see the point of someone else learning your lessons for you. Or have i misinterpreted the quote?

If anyone knows anything about this, could you explain it for me please?

BB

[Swanspirit]

Here is something from A christian perspective...

Christianity Today Magazine
Christianity Today, June 11, 2001
Weighed Down by
Karmic Debt
Aspects of Tibetan spirituality should give
Christians pause.

By James A. Beverley | posted 6/8/01
There are many points at which
Christians differ with Tibetan Buddhists,
but the following issues strike me as
especially problematic.
The Dalai Lama states in his The
Opening of the Wisdom-Eye that Tibetan
Buddhist teachings and rituals "were
taught by Lord Buddha in person." This
claim has two serious weaknesses. First,
there are the crucial differences in belief and ritual between the late Buddhism of
Tibet and the earlier Buddhisms of India
and Sri Lanka, in addition to variants in
China and Japan. For example, Tibetan
Buddhist tantric ritual, including
visualization of wrathful deities, lacks
harmony with earlier forms of Buddhist meditation.
There is the deeper question of the
historical integrity of the earliest
documents about Buddha. These texts,
in Pali and Sanskrit, were written
between four and five centuries after
the death of Gautama. In A Short
History of Buddhism, the devout
Buddhist scholar Edward Conze dismisses
any "confident assertions" about what
the Buddha really said as "mere
guesswork." Conze wrote in his
introduction to the Buddhist Scriptures:
"Buddhists possess nothing that
corresponds to the New Testament."
Aspects of Tibetan spirituality also give
a Christian pause. The Tibetan emphasis
on contact with spirit mediums is a case in point. The Dalai Lama himself regularly
consults with the Nechung Oracle, said
to be a spirit deity who takes over the
body of a chosen Tibetan Buddhist. Furthermore, as missionary Mark Tsering documents, many Tibetan Buddhists have a superstitious fear about the spirit world (a result of the animist influence
of Tibet's Bon religion) and a magical
view of reality—as if the number of
prostrations and countless turns of a
prayer wheel is all it takes to affect the
ever-pervasive karmic forces.
Notions of karma and reincarnation are
offered as explanations for many of life's
mysterious events, but at a steep price.
The Dalai Lama writes in one of his
books that a person killed by a lightning
bolt has earned that fate by some misdeed in a previous life. That example, though grim, does not address the deeper implications of the Buddhist view.
Consider the Buddhist nuns raped by
Communist soldiers during the purge o
Tibet. Was this their karmic debt?
Likewise, what does the Buddhist say
about the death of Jesus? Did he deserve to die by crucifixion? If so, it is
hard to imagine how Buddhists can still
consider him even an enlightened
teacher.
Copyright © 2001 by the author or Christianity
Today, Inc./Christianity Today magazine.

But I have to tell you that this is the kind of psuedo-intellectual gobbeldy gook that drives me wild.
In the concept of true Karmic Debt, we are here to learn lessons of love, but it really isnt from the punitive point of view, but the learning one.
The concept that "Ascended Masters" can relieve you of your karmic debt is not all that removed from the concept of "forgiveness of sin" that is held by the Catholic Church, who assume that power and priveledge by their interpretation of something Jesus said to his apostles. Many protestant factions dispute this power.
To me , it is again the idea that YOU dont have be resposible for your own actions, someone somewhere "higher up" can take the consequences away . Again it seems convoluted to me , if we learn from the consequences of our actions, how do we learn if they are removed?
Love and light
Swannie
I hope I didnt go in too many directions with this :>

[EasternPriest]

First, there are several cultures which do not have the concept of Karma in their faith systems. Karma, in it's original form, is a Vedic tradition, and has spread from there.

There are cultures which do claim that "sins" can be passed fromone person to another. An old tradition around New Orleans is that of the "sin eater," people who are paid to assume the sins of the deceased, so that the deceased is free to move on.

As far as the article that swan posted - it's an evaluation of other faith systems, and no different then claiming the article is "the kind of psuedo-intellectual gobbeldy gook that drives me wild."

More later.....back to surgery.

[Swanspirit]

Claims we are born with ORIGINAL SIN. and thus enter the world with this "stain" on our souls. This does seem to parallel the idea of "karmic debt" left over from another life, but instead of having accrued ourselves we inherit it as part of our nature spiritual and human nature .
That is why I posted that article .... it isnt a repectful view of otehr religions, or even a fair comparison because it openly disparages holy practices of other religions,talking about how the prayer wheel is ineffective but at the same time ;we know that repetetive prayer is practiced not only in Catholicism(rosaries)but by protestants (liturgies) as well as well ; and it offers a very superficial idea of how the karmic concept is framed in Eastern Thought.
It is very slanted and equates to my mind the idea of "christ asuming karmic debt". Any Ascended Master can do that for you .... all you have to do is FOLLOW them, or their precepts.
Again we have the idea of escaping consequences , or being SAVED ..... when really the idea of karma is to LEARN and take in the lesson so it doesnt have to be repeated. Even so I dont follow this ideology, because once again we are moving away and denigrating the body and elevating spirit above the body, creating that dichotomy and schism that to my mind the world has been suffering from for a long time :>
Love and Light and not a neopagan for nothing :>
Swannie

[EasternPriest]

My point is that not all faith systems, eastern or western, believe in karma. Not all faiths sytems, eastern or western, believe in reincarnation either. Karma and reincarnation are things that you accept on faith. There is no compelling proof that they exist. They are simply precepts that you do or do not believe in. By nature, any article this brief is going to be superficial, and it never claims to be a theoligical exposition on the concept of karma. Even the eastern religions cannot agree among themselves what karma is.

For some faith sytems that do believe in karma and reincarnation, it is in fact punitive in nature. For others, it is not.

There is no parallel between the concept of "original sin" and that of Karma. Also, it not only the Roman Catholic church that believes in the concept of "original sin." As an aside, when you speak of "catholicism," there are over 100 catholic churches, several of which have no affilial tie with Rome.

Having done some studies in Tibetan Buddhism, the article you quote states their beliefs pretty accurately.

As far as disparaging other religions goes, this article simply points out some things, that in the authors view, are cause for concern. He is as entitled to that opinion as you and I are to ours.

[mol]

I guess this also relates on how one truly relates to Karma.

I dont have a traditional view of Karma. I Know it to be as thus:

We have a direct control of our Karmic energy. How much we put in and how much we get out. This directly relates to our feelings of Guilt (when we are discussing...getting something back...) Anyway, when one feels guilt over an act then some energy of guilt gets popped back onto the Karma stack. Which will eventually have to get pulled off. It can be avoided, but it is very tedious to do so.

Anyway...thats My personal take...so you see....Karmic debt is a bit of a misnomer to me...because no one has access to your Karmic stack.

[Again...my views...my views...]

[Swanspirit]

on Karma stem from the original Sanskrit meaning of the word.... which is ACTION.
I have the " we cannot possibly live in a vacuum and everything we do is connected to everything else" view, there fore we need be careful how lightly we tread upon the earth and how we interact with our fellows.. ALL creatures ........ and of course we all have our own views because we are all the the authors of our own existence, with modifications built in for this particular manifestation.
I have this strange feeling I was a pink Cloud floating around Venus for a while and decided to to BlueGreen Earth for a while , and some of my other Venusian family are here too ...... what is the Karma of a Cloud??
kind of OT but.... want to hear something funny ?? There is a woman astrophysicist who is mapping the galaxies to find their structure, and so far the map resembles bubbles of SeaFOAM.... from which the Goddess VENUS was supposedly born from as the Semen of the GOD ! hehehe I thought that was funny ...sigh....
I just think that when we get our mitts out of other peoples karma and they get their mitts out of OURS LOL and we own our own ACTIONS is when real inner growth happens , not to mention trying to get out of having responsibility for one's own actions ......
Also let us not forget Karmic GIFTS..... which we all have as well :>
Love and light
Swannie

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
on Karma stem from the original Sanskrit meaning of the word.... which is ACTION.
I have the " we cannot possibly live in a vacuum and everything we do is connected to everything else" view, there fore we need be careful how lightly we tread upon the earth and how we interact with our fellows.. ALL creatures ........ and of course we all have our own views because we are all the the authors of our own existence, with modifications built in for this particular manifestation.


That's why I mentioned that the origin of Karma doctrines is in the Vedic literature. Most of the Vedic literature was originally written in Sanskrit.

Some Karma doctrines portray Karma as only the negative. No "Good Karma." These traditions portray the balance of Karma as Dharma. Others say Karma is both good and bad, and Dharma is a seperate thing.

As far as being the authors of our existence, about the farthest I can go along that line is to say that we have free will and the ability to reason, so we influence the course of our life.

[Swanspirit]

Karma in the Eastern Tradtions is part of the entire cultural makeup, and is intrinsically bound to astrology in many systems .It can be part of the societal structure that reinforces oppression and even slavery. So a lot of what people started calling "KARMA" in the sixties and seventies as adopted from those systems has been watered down , misused and misunderstood.
Astrologically according to the vedic system , one cannot even ACCRUE karmic debt in this life until your Saturn Return at about 28 years of life. There exists in this concept the idea of innocence as well , NOT everything that happens to you is YOUR karma , it might be someone elses as in harm done to children is NOT their karma.
Love and light
Swannie

[Danustouch]

I really do not have anything constructive to add to this thread. Much of what I know of Karma, is through personal experience...or at least..my PERCEPTION of those experiences. I choose to not debate the existence, or mechanichs of Karmic Law, but to only accept it's presence, and effect in MY life, as I see it. It simply helps to govern my conscience. But..I would like to just say..that it is REALLY cool that this forum exists, to debate these ideals. I think this debate is really cool!

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
Karma in the Eastern Tradtions is part of the entire cultural makeup, and is intrinsically bound to astrology in many systems .It can be part of the societal structure that reinforces oppression and even slavery. So a lot of what people started calling "KARMA" in the sixties and seventies as adopted from those systems has been watered down , misused and misunderstood.
Astrologically according to the vedic system , one cannot even ACCRUE karmic debt in this life until your Saturn Return at about 28 years of life. There exists in this concept the idea of innocence as well , NOT everything that happens to you is YOUR karma , it might be someone elses as in harm done to children is NOT their karma.
Love and light
Swannie

And many eastern systems have nothing to do with astrology, so their concept of Karma must be different.

A question for those who follow astrolgy?..I thought Saturn return was every 29 years?

[Swanspirit]

approxomately ..... every 27 to 29 years depending on retrograde motion of Saturn ..... placement in the chart etc etc :>
Love and Light
Swannie

[The Mad Vitiki]

The qustion I have is fate(karma/wyrd) set at birth. If your look at most peoles lives you see the frut dosent fall far form the tree.
What I mean by that is most folks live ther lifes by the pattern set by there parents. By the time they have grown up there relgions and politcs are simmerler if not the same. All of us that have childern tend to tret them the same way our parents treted us, by taching our childern in the same way as our paternt and there parents and on Down the line. If we chose to chage teaching method we must make a real effort not to do as they did to us.
The way I see it for most of us we are following the path of lest restens and that is the path sat down by our our anseters.
It takes alot of courge and hardheadedness to find our on path and fallow our on drummer.
Is our fate(karma/wyrd) set at birth?
and if it is can it be changed ?

[marevard]

quote:
"Many cultures believe that you can assume someone elses karmic debt. Isn't that what Jesus was supposed to have done? "

I will admitt (no offense to anyone), that I laughed when I read this, chalk it up to my strange sense of humor. Thanks alot, had a hard week, you lightened up.

As for what I have learnt about this is that if one believes in both karma and reincarnation, one is able to have karmic debt, but if the offense was serious enough (a.k.a. did damage to another)

I know karma as being neither good nor bad, for one can not exist without the other... equal and opposite reactions type thing.
So, for EasternPriest metioning that "Some Karma doctines portray Karma as only the negative.", IMO explains the fact that some feel that when 'nothing' happens to one, it has to be negative, for 'good' is usually due to the intervention of a 'higher source'.

Now for Fate/Karma being set at birth... now there is a debate. I know people on both sides. As for me, I feel that Fate has a 'rough' plan, but there is many different paths to follow. I imagine it like a spider web, not all the paths head in the same direction. We all have the free will to not choose a path that is set infront of us. Now, if one carries over Karmic debt... that is another story. One's next life (or sometimes lives) is usually used to correct that debt and to get one's karma back to atleast an even balance.

[mol]

Originally posted by marevard


Now for Fate/Karma being set at birth... now there is a debate. I know people on both sides. As for me, I feel that Fate has a 'rough' plan, but there is many different paths to follow. I imagine it like a spider web, not all the paths head in the same direction. We all have the free will to not choose a path that is set infront of us. Now, if one carries over Karmic debt... that is another story. One's next life (or sometimes lives) is usually used to correct that debt and to get one's karma back to atleast an even balance.

I have never heard of 'Karma' being set at birth...as I understood...most people put a totally different definition of Karma and Fate.

[Illuminatus]

I spoke with someone last weekend, who said that some Buddist Monks who had almost but not quite achieved Nirvana... could donate their karma to others. They do this by remaining on this plane, helping others to get closer to Nirvana... and paying for it by extending their own stay here. Or something like that.

[marevard]

Originally posted by mol


I have never heard of 'Karma' being set at birth...as I understood...most people put a totally different definition of Karma and Fate. \

Some view that as a possible path of Fate if one carries over karmic debt into the next life, hence being set at birth (if Fate so chooses to). This is just what my Uncle taught me. Everyone has a different opinion where Fate and Karma concern, especially if one puts the two together (inwhich I have noticed in the past, some people interchange the two terms freely, although they are separate). This does however differ from Karmic Fate.

[Myst]

*bump*

[lucidfire]

many people try to understand karma without understanding dharma; in many eastern religions the two are seen as like yin and yang

it's like, if you hurt someone, but they got hurt because they were stupid (hypotheticaly), I don't think that's bad karma, but if you do something good accidently and were intending to hurt someone, I Think that might be bad karma. Pretty confusing anyways

*Then, thinking of that, the only original sin is relative to the truths people share, in the sense of collective conciousness. If you share a very "normal" Christian view, you probably inherit their collective flaws and sins.

[Sequoia]

hmm. . . I think that Karma can follow from one incarnation to the next. . . .Not little things. . . but BIG events maybe. . .

Like say you're an evil warlord. . . . and your next life, you end up a slave. . . maybe it's connected? ^^; I have trouble beliving in coincidences.

I know that I have a lot of backedup Karma. But at the same time it's intertwined with what I know as Destiny, Fate. So I think that there's a TON of factors, braided and twined, that effect people through lives and such.

Just my opinion, anyways ^_^