Feminisim

[Wildwood]

This is a quote I found on a post card. I have no idea who
wrote it, and it is a little out of date but it always
sends shivers down my spine when I read it so I
thought I'd share it with you all (it is a bit too long to be a
sig.)

"Because women's work is underpaid or unpaid and
what we look like is more important that what we do
and if we get raped it is our fault and if we love women it
is because we can't get a real man and if we expect
community care for our family we are selfish and if we stand
up for our rights we are loud and if we want to get married
we are out to trap a man and if we don't we are unnatural
and because we aren't deemed responsible enough to
decide if, when and how we give birth

we are feminists."

Enjoy

Wildwood

[Kaylara]

Thank you for posting that. It show the truly confusing and contractory way that women are viewed with in this society. (By many people) Now the question is: What can we do to change these negative views towards women. I personally consider myself a feminist, and I know the kinds of comments one gets when you speak your mind as a women. Speaking as a young woman, I can tell you that most younger men (and probably older men as well, I don't really know) hate a woman to be as intellegent as they are. And goddess forbid if a woman enjoys sex, or decides to take to bed whomever she wants... "oh she is such a slut." But a guy is a stud if he does the same thing... Another notch in his belt.
I am also a very outspoken person, and am not very PC, which is looked down on quite a bit. Then I am a B that rhymes with itch. And I should know my place, and keep quiet. I should be a home maker, and not have a sucessful career because I am a woman. I should be paid less for the same work than a man. I should be bare-foot and pregnant in the kitchen. I shouldn't (according to a recent talk radio program I heard.) even be able to vote or hold public office!

*Pant* *Pant*
Sorry, but I had to get that off my chest... I am so sick of the hypocracy in the world...

Kaylara

[eaglewolf]

These views are slowly becoming past issues, and it is only a matter of time before they are more a part of our history than our culture...

...and K, you are a stud! Don't let them get to you ;).

~ew

[Kaylara]

I hope that you are right EW! It gets to me how stupid people are even in these "enlightened times"!

Kaylara

[Semele]

Just kidding i am not a man hater.. well most of em anyway. But i do feel the need, Goddess knows why, to defend them. There are double standards for them as well, Not sensitive enough or cry baby.

Lets face it there are always going to be bullheaded bigots in the world who think that their sex, race, religion, hair color... are superior. We as the enlightened ones will just always know the truth. That and we can make a voodoo doll out of em!!!

Semele

[Kaylara]

I didn't mean to sound like a man hater. (Sorry if I did) But, my point is, in this society, women are less valued. (it seems) Guys roles are equally bad, but I can't really say my personal experience with that because I am not a guy. I would like to hear from some of the men here what their observations are.

Kaylara

[Shatav]

Originally posted by Semele
There are double standards for them as well, Not sensitive enough or cry baby. Lets face it there are always going to be bullheaded bigots in the world who think that their sex, race, religion, hair color... are superior. We as the enlightened ones will just always know the truth

*Stands and applauds* If you weren't going to say it, I was. I mean, how often in a divorce is the man even given a chance at having custody, even if he's the far better parent? There are double standards everywhere for every race, religion, creed, and thought out there. Thank you for reminding us, Semele

[Wildwood]

thanks for all your views, it is cool to see such
lively discussion.

To clarify my position, I will fight all injustice to anyone
whatever their sex.
I'ts just that women still have much more to fight for than
men. Decades of social inequality don't kind washed away
overnight, and the system of business, law and politics
tends to support men more than it supports women.

We may be getting equality in the workplace (and I must
add here that Tony Blair gave a speech only last year
pledging that men and women would receive equal pay in
the workplace - to my utter shock, i assumed it was already
the case) but it is worth remembering that getting on in the
workplace is still done on male terms.
Females still need twice the qualifications as men going for
the same positions in many professions - particularly
universities.

Secondly (the lawyer in me speaking) men do not generally
get custody because the men are usually the breadwinners
who go out to work all day. It is generally
Women who bring up the children and therefore in the traumatic
situation of divorce the courts seek to minimise the
disruption to the children by letting them stay with the
parent who has spent the most time in bringing them up
so far.

In England there was a divorce settlement case called
Conran v. Conran. A women who had supported her husband
in his business, both keeping his home, raising his children
and working for that business was only awarded £9million
out of his £80 million fortune despite the fact she had
contributed equally to the marital life they shared.
Until the case of White v. White which came out in 2000
did the House of Lords concede that a women's contribution
to the home and the children, could be considered in the
financial provision made in these big money cases.

Just some more food for thought, tell me what you think on
the cases in particular since I have to do finals on them in
May.

Eagle-Wolf: I to hope that the situation is changing, but
the US still hasn't had a Female president yet.

Enjoy
Wildwood

[Cadarn]

Speaking as a young woman, I can tell you that most younger men (and probably older men as well, I don't really know) hate a woman to be as intelligent as they are. And goddess forbid if a woman enjoys sex, or decides to take to bed whomever she wants... "oh she is such a slut." But a guy is a stud if he does the same thing... Another notch in his belt.


I don't know what sort of men you are mixing with but I find that generalization quit insulting perhaps its an American thing but most of the people I mix with look on there partners of what ever sex as equals

[eaglewolf]

You know, from my point of view, with all of the movements of equality...

...I often find myself being discriminated against as a white male, just because I am a white male.

Heh, it's funny how things work out.

;)

~ew

[mol]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
You know, from my point of view, with all of the movements of equality...

...I often find myself being discriminated against as a white male, just because I am a white male.

Heh, it's funny how things work out.

;)

~ew

*appluase*

I hear that. And, I am not going to even comment on it. 'nuff said.

[Kaylara]

I hear that too EW~ I don't agree with that any more than I consider myself a minority just because I am a woman. I consider men and women completely equal, but unfortuately not everyone thinks that way.

Cadarn~ Didn't mean to insult you, let me clarify my stance here. It is my experience that younger men do not like women to be smarter than them. I understand that this is a broad generalization, (all generalizations are false/tee hee) but, this assumption on my part is not for lack of evidence.
Throughout my school career, I went to about eight or nine schools. I also know what adults feel about it. I have to say, many of the middle-aged gentlemen I know think that intellegence is golden. The majority of my guy friends (and I do have a lot of them) are nice, intellegent people, who don't think that a woman being smart is a bad thing. I have had guys who liked me until they realized that I am opinionated, and can think for myself. Like I said, this is my own opinion, and I acknowledge that it is a generalization. I know that not all men are like that, and if it sounded like I meant anything else, I am sorry.

Kaylara

[Selenelucina]

Anyone who thinks these issues are "almost resolved" needs a good consciousness raising. I truly hope with all my heart that this new generation believes in equality of the sexes, but it is my opinion that everthing we fought for in the last 30 years is going to be a battle we fight again. Read the newspapers. Listen to your President. We need "humanism", maybe, more than feminism or male chauvinism, but I have been in the trenches for 30 years, and I know what I see. If you don't fear for yourselves, men and women, fear for your daughters - and sons. Remember these words?

Teach Your Children
( Crosby, Stills and Nash )

You, who are on the road,
Must have a code that you can live by.
And so, become yourself,
Because the past is just a good bye.
Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears that your elders grew by.
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.
Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they picks, the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why, if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.......

Don't believe me? Ask Sister Maggie.
Slightly Disillusioned and feeling old, Selene

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Selenelucina
Anyone who thinks these issues are "almost resolved" needs a good consciousness raising.

No one is saying everything is peachy, but the decline is noticable. Could take many, many years, but people are taking these issues to heart, now more than ever.

No need to lash out around here... just keep up the fight.

~ew

[Shatav]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


No need to lash out around here...

*gives ew ten lashes* Oh, that isn't quite what you meant. :D

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Shatav
*gives ew ten lashes* Oh, that isn't quite what you meant. :D

Not really, but I ...er... didn't mind...

;)

~ew

[Yvonne Belisle]

I am a 31 year old housewife. I have my three older children as stairstep kids back to back. I truely enjoy staying at home and cooking and tending my family. Shockingly enough I get mixed reactions. Some of the time I am critisized for no ambition "Don't you want to better yourself?". I also get patronized from time to time. There is no one way that is better but there is always someone who thinks that their way is what you should do. Prejudice is everywhere and often in forms we don't recognize. We have to be careful of the trap that blinds us to subtle forms of prejudism. Double standards are a sad thing but they are out there. All we can do is the best we are able if we get upset over the double standard we cheat ourselves. Yes point out a persons ignorance in believing the double standard but do not let it touch who you are.

[Maggie]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


No one is saying everything is peachy, but the decline is noticable. Could take many, many years, but people are taking these issues to heart, now more than ever.

No need to lash out around here... just keep up the fight.

~ew

Sure things are better, but there's some complacency now too, even when there's still room for improvement. I was a stay at home mom, and I worked after those children were older. I've noticed the same thing that Yvonne has about women who stay home with children, and the patronizing attitudes often have come from WOMEN! On the other hand, I was a volunteer firefighter from 1977 to 1990, and when I started I was the first woman the volunteer department had. As time went on I noticed that I often had less trouble from the older men--the ones that really made me grit my teeth were the new ones coming in. The laws have changed and overt bias is illegal, but the covert bias that makes everyday life miserable is still there. And that covert bias is often the indicator as to whether true change has taken place.

Neither Selene or I are 'lashing out' we're just saying it's too early in these societal changes to believe things can't go backward.

Regards,

Maggie

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Maggie
Neither Selene or I are 'lashing out' we're just saying it's too early in these societal changes to believe things can't go backward.

As it is too early to suggest they won't go forward...

We are always fearful of past events, not to mention current ones. I am not insensitive to your views, it has just always been my way to push forward, while keeping the past in mind.

~ew, just trying to offer some optimism as usual~

[Maggie]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


As it is too early to suggest they won't go forward...

We are always fearful of past events, not to mention current ones. I am not insensitive to your views, it has just always been my way to push forward, while keeping the past in mind.

~ew, just trying to offer some optimism as usual~

Neither of us is saying they WON'T, just that it's not time for complacency. And pushing forward is the only way to get things done--wanna consider what it was like to walk into a stationhouse full of men and tell them I wanted to be a firefighter? <G> And, my daughter is pursuing a science major, as I did.

Keeping the past in mind could also be phrased as being mindful of the past, carries a slightly different connotation and I think better expresses what Selene and I are saying.

Regards,

Maggie

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Maggie
Neither of us is saying they WON'T

Funny thing is, no body said you were...

...this is my whole point.

~ew

[Maggie]

Originally posted by eaglewolf


Funny thing is, no body said you were...

...this is my whole point.

~ew

Your phrase "as it is too early to suggest they won't go forward" in an earlier post sounded as if you thought that was what Selene and I were saying. If that's not correct, then it was a miscommunication.


Regards,

Maggie

[eaglewolf]

Actually I was offering an addition to the thought...

...I should have clarified. It is my fault.

~ew, who's posts are often read into far too deeply~

[Maggie]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
Actually I was offering an addition to the thought...

...I should have clarified. It is my fault.

~ew, who's posts are often read into far too deeply~

Nah. YOU know what you mean <G> It's OTHER people who make things complicated! <LOL>

Regards,

Maggie

[eaglewolf]

Which ever the case may be... :p

Even if I would have said "In addition, it is too early...," some people would take this as an attack and feel the need to retaliate... especially when those involved feel so strongly about their views.

Ever wonder why most of my posts are so short? Less for me to defend :rolleyes:.

~ew, who knows even the things just said are in the past~

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
This is a good subject.I'm glad it was brought up.
Wildwood,it's interesting to here about how Britain treats this subject.In the case law in the USA we've had some cases where the woman(or man)puts the spouse through college,often through medical school,then the guy splits.The courts have said that the woman can get half the assets and has a right to future earnings too.It treats the diploma kind of like a marital asset.We have cases that have done this for the guy too.The standard in the US in most states for child custody is that it usually goes the the "primary caretaker of the child", but the "Best interests of the child"are to be considered at all times.Two of my very good friends,both male,recently received custody of their children because they were the ones who got up,made breakfast,cleaned, clothed,and sent the children off to school.
As far as equality.Women on average in the US make 75-80% of the salary of a man in a comparable position.There's also the whole glass ceiling phenomenon in which women are often passed over for promotion over the male.The new President has an Attorney General who will attack the reproductive rights of women.
Worldwide women are far from equal.We have only to look to Afghanistan where the Taliban has recently made it illegal for women to even go to school.Then there are the forms of genital mutilation found in Africa so women are "fixed"so they won't enjoy sex,female circumcision it's called.The systematic rape of women in the former Yugoslavia by the Serbs so Croats and Muslim women would give birth to part Serb children.
I have to say I disagree with the notion that the "white male" has it so rough.I hear this all the time but I don't see it.Look at the lawmakers nationwide.Check out the legislatures in the states and the US Congress.These bodies are overwhelmingly consisted of "white males."So if the "white male" is facing prejudice,he's doing it to himself.He's also more likely to have a better paying job,and to be paid better than other groups,and more likely to advance.
Anyway,that's just my 2 cents.BTW,although I am 1/4 Cheyenne,I'm probably considered a "white male".(:
Peace and love
Rain Brightstar

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by BrightStar
I have to say I disagree with the notion that the "white male" has it so rough.

I do not in any way have it "rough," if that is what you think I said. When you give to some you take from others (every action has an equal and opposite reaction, yadda yadda). So if you think "white males" do not feel the force, you are mistaken.

I was simply looking at it from a "what comes around goes around" stand point. Don't put words in my mouth to validate your opinions.


Look at the lawmakers nationwide.Check out the legislatures in the states and the US Congress.These bodies are overwhelmingly consisted of "white males."

Which is slowly changing. When more positions of this nature are filled with non "white males" then my statement above will become more clear, possibly.

I am happy to see the "wealth" being spread, and not complaining about equality in any way... just making a statement.


So if the "white male" is facing prejudice,he's doing it to himself.

WoW. That sounds interestingly similar to "It's the womans fault when she gets raped." Thank you for validating my point...

Should someone decide to retaliate against my opinion, please don't attribute my views to insecurity, these views are not from the heart. This is my blanket opinion that happens to cover prejudism of all, not just "white males."

Because I have never personally been discriminated against, they are not based on personal experience either, should you consider that route.

~ew, who is beginning to think ignorance is not bliss, but just ignorance~

[Skye_McCarthy]

my mother raised me to be all "girl power" and (partially because of her divorce from my father) kind of had me looking down on men as I was growing up...but then I met my fiance and I found out that not all men are slime, and that they do respect women and all that fun stuff. Now I think men are very cool :D hehe

Also, yvonne, i find myself in the same boat as you...i plan to work (but from home) so that I may stay home with my children...partially because I never got to see my parents more than an hour a day growing up because they both worked...I think its great to be there for your children...and that its not moving backwards in the feminist movement. Eventually if my husband makes enough money I plan to work less so that i may spend more time with my children and help them avoid all the pitfalls that the modern world has to offer.
My mother (and the majority of other feminist women) think this is the stupidest thing and that I should be the primary breadwinner no matter what....if men and women are equal then why would it matter if i CHOSE to stay home...my guy would never dream of telling me what to do (or he'd be sleeping on the couch lol) Its a complicated world we live in...no?

ok i feel better now lol
:elf: -Skye

[Niamh]

It's an extremely complicated world we live in! There will always be women frowning upon stay-at-home mom's, and there will always be women jealous of stay-at-home mom's, etc. etc.
I think this community has successfully discussed a topic that in most other communities would have people mud slinging and yelling and screaming. We're all hearing one another and being heard - regardless of sex! :)
My two cents worth is that while I might get upset at some issues regarding sex, I just try to change things in my own life and hope that they will ripple out into others'.
:D

[Selenelucina]

Let's just go forward, ew?

Everyone is discriminated against in some way, at some time. But
"those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". And if you thought Momma Crone was lashing out, first, you have never seen or heard Momma "lashing" or you would know the difference, and second, that wasn't anger, that was tears and sorrow, and a sigh.

Most women don't have the privilege of forgetting how things were. Sure, we can be positive, keep smiling, and give cute little squeaks when our rights are being eroded so subtly that you only see it, if you're watching for it. But I feel many Goddesses in this community (did I ever mention I'm Dianic, which MAY have something to do with my attitude?), who also feel that old Paternalism slipping in, right past us, while we're trying to do everything at once, and mostly succeeding. And I don't believe for a second that giving rights to women takes away from what men already have.
Do I hate men? I love and adore, revere and respect them, on an individual basis. I've been married to the same one for 32 years, and with him for 37. I have a son, my first child, and he's found doors slammed in his face too. But Battered Women's shelters are opening up in every locality, and there still aren't enough beds.

I always end up writing these long posts, and while I have claimed
Crone status, I don't even pretend to being all-knowing. I just know that "some day" wasn't enough for Martin Luther King, or Nelson Mandela, for the Jews who said "NEVER again", for Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem, and it's not enough for me. If anyone doesn't think back-alley abortions aren't still happening for the working poor, that the incidence of date rape isn't still increasing with or without "ruffies", that the glass ceiling still isn't firmly in place just because a few women have made it, then I am sadder than before. And if we are aware of these things, what are we doing about them now? Not "they" - WE.

Is it my imagination or does everyone here like it better when the conversations are "love, light and lollipops", instead of real issues?
Or am I misreading, and are we supposed to stick to strictly Pagan issues?
shuttin' up, probably in trouble again, Selene

[Skye_McCarthy]

I don't think its that people don't want to talk about real issues..i think its just that people get defensive...
I agree women's rights (as well as blacks, asians, gays, etc etc) are still a long way from being accepted and practiced by everyone...but you are preaching to the choir, silly! :)

I think most of the people here are on your side...I mean look at Wicca....there is a god and goddess....and they are equal...maybe i'm jumping to conclusions but i think that would say to me that most wiccans would treat men and women equally...most pagans for that matter

as for those who disagree...well you can't change people....people can only change themselves (as frustrating a lesson that was for me to learn) all you can do is give them the information and let them decide for themselves...and hope for the best

and now i have to run to class...but i will check back later...
love to all of you :)

:elf: -Skye

[Yvonne Belisle]

Personally I think the world as a whole has a long way to go growing up before everyone is considered equal. Living here is Sunny Southern California I see a lot of predudism in the employment field for general labor. The work force here is comprised largely of our Hispanic community. This could be caused be the numbers or it could be because employers know that most of them will let an employer get away with almost anything. Result for a white male entry level jobs in a field where no training is required are overwhelmingly filled with Hispanics and white males are passed over in favor of them. I have seen this at work personally. Currently Naillosotarrain is job hunting and it isn't an easy task. Thankfully he has skills so his personal job market is more open. My friend doesn't and was turned down for jobs at McDonalds because he had to be able to communicate with his coworkers! So it's not just women or blacks or... you name it you can find it if you look hard enough. I don't mean to sound passive on this mearly that when we get militant on the issue (no I don't think we are yet but we could) we start to overlook other aspects. Right now personally we are on welfare it has been suggested that I get a job so we can get off of welfare. Problem I have no job field training that means I would get a minimum wage job. Daycare for a 3 year old costs more perhour here than minimum wage. Plus if you have a child on a nebulizer daycares will not take them for insurancce perposes. This means that to make money Naillosotarrain must work a second job to pay the difference on my daycare. Yet to welfare and many others it makes sense for me to work. Because I feel it makes more sense for me to stay home I become welfare trash by default. This is not my idea of fun but it is a very good example of treating someone poorly because of economic discrimination. I can't change how they think I can only do what it takes to keep my family secure and work from there I attempt to educate people as I can. It is one of the main reasons we are moving. With the cost of living here we can't make it on minimum wage. Where we are moving we can. It's a good change. The issues here won't change though there will still be others in the place we are now. I am begining to ramble so I am going to cut this here. I'm not sure my point comes across well but it is that right now I don't think people on the whole are ready to give up thier various predudisms. It's like a security blanket to them. My spellcheck will not load sorry about typos a) I can't spell b) I've had about 4 hours of sleep a day for a week now

[Selenelucina]

Silly? Well, Toots, I'm not Wiccan, and I don't believe the God and the Goddess are equal, and yes, you are jumping to generalizations. It's not about sides. It's about issues that I hope you never have to face, because we silly old ladies went to jail and chained ourselves to fences and drove our sisters across state lines to get doctor-provided care. And taught our daughters to be strong women. I wish you all could meet mine.

Am I defensive? Sure. But know what the word means - I would be willing to stand at your side, or in front of you, if necessary, to defend your rights. Would you be there for me?

If anyone would like to read the entire quote that started this whole thread, email me at Selenelucina@yahoo.com with your e-address, and I'll send it to you.

Meanwhile, I'm outta here. I know what I know, and I'm realizing that this isn't the place for me.
Sorry Mol - I don't have the time or energy for this.
Selene

[Niamh]

No, I don't think you're in trouble! What you say is true. Many people are not aware of things that go on around them. I know that half the time I myself am not aware. And I know people who don't want to know what's going on around them. I don't know if it's fear, or what.
I'll stop here. My brain is tired and I probably won't sound too intelligent...

[bluecat]

Feminism?

I think that the negative reaction from most men towards a woman is deeply rooted in the fear of inadequacy (if you are not one of these guys, it is not directed at you!). There seems to be a lot of Patriarichal Power out there that is afraid the world will discover it is not ALL POWERFUL.

There are many examples of this fear as demonstrated by the quote in the original post; and there are many others ... here are a few:

1. Witch hunts - meant to extinguish the light of female healers and establish the medical profession as a men's club. It was also a really dandy and neat way to get your neighbor's property, as long as you were willing to gamble that one you started point fingers you were not included.

2. Priesthood/Clerical Duties. Same as above.

3. Monotheistic Male Diety. Same as above, can't have any Goddesses Ya know ...

That is only three, but the list is VERY long and all for basically the same reason. There is the thought among some that the woman's place is to stayt home and have and raise children. I cannot speak for the raising of children part because my ex and I were unable to do so because nature had other ideas. But I can guarantee you one thing, when it comes time to go into a delivery room, I want to be the one standing beside the birthing bed, not the one in the birthing bed. I have been with friends thru that experience and there were times when I was in a panic because of what the woman was going thru to have the child.

If a guy wants to be so friggin' tuff let him carry a child to term and then deliver it; I'll pass thank you. When it comes to that this Cat is just plain CHICKEN!

'NUFF SAID!

BlueCat

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
Bummer,no need to get angry Selenelucina.I hope you come back.
EW,didn't mean to offend,if I did.On the idea that if white males are discriminated against,they did it to themselves.I just meant that since the white guys make the laws and since they own most of the businesses, and since most of the power in the USA is in the hands of white males,if they face discrimination, then white males are probably discriminating against white males.Did that come out clearly?
Oh well,sometimes I get white male foot in white male mouth disease.(:
Peace and Love
Rain BrightStar

[eaglewolf]

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it."

"Those who dwell on the past are doomed to live in it."

May you live true, however that may be.

~ew

[Semele]

Sorry... tension breaker you know!!!!

That's me using my boobies to get a laugh!!! Some feminist I am!!

Anyway... in the words of the wise Rodney king,,"Can't we all just get along??"

I hope so cause I have already used the boobie angle..where else is there to turn??

Semele

Toss me another popcicle in love and light please!!

[Shatav]

Originally posted by Semele
That's me using my boobies to get a laugh!!!

You know, funny you should say this. While I was in high school, a tension breaker among me and my friends was to yell "Boobie check!" and then look down you shirt and reply, "yup, still there." Anyway, you had me laughing at a good memory. ;)

[Skye_McCarthy]

First of all I was not talking about YOU momma crone...I was saying the other people are feeling defensive from you because you come on so strong (not that that's horrible or anything..it just caught people off guard)

Secondly I was calling you silly as a term of endearment (i call everyone silly including myself)..it was not meant as a personal attack on you in anyway shape or form...and it saddens me that you would accuse me of jumping to conclusions while you are doing the same.

Thirdly i did not say anything negative about the feminist movement or you so you really don't need to get so fiesty about it! sheesh

And lastly yes I would give my life for you or anyone else. Period. All life is precious and just because I'm not a "crone" yet doesn't mean I'm any less important or educated than you are.

Ok now that I'm done defending myself (see me being defensive..not you)...I'm very sorry that you feel this is not the place for you..I guess its not the place for everyone. It was not my intention to make anyone feel unwelcome and I would have responded sooner but I had to finish my day at school and go to work.

I guess I'm done....sorry to have bothered everyone.
:( -Skye

[Semele]

Any of you!

I think we were all just expressing our opinions... well and my boobies!! Sometimes in this medium things don't come out right for lack of being able to hear each others tone and see facial expressions. We often take for granted how easy communication is when we are face to face.

I usually just try to give everyone benefit of the doubt when I read something that seems offensive. I hope that everyone can start anew without hurt feelings and embrace the great group we have here. (yes I guess I am all love and light and popcicles, but I too can embrace the darkness without fear) I just think there is far too much in our lives to defend that this should be a place of comfortable disagreements.

I hope noone leaves because you are all a very vital part of this community. However, if you do, I wish you luck and hope you are always surrounded with friends who recognize your unique beauty. You are always welcome here.

Semele

[bluecat]

Did I hear someone say, "Boobies?"

[Semele]

Someone bit!!!

I thought surely EW would say something at least.

:sick: Look.... No tassles!!!

Semele

[Shatav]

Originally posted by Semele
Someone bit!!!



I bit earlier. You musta missed it. :D

[Semele]

Guess I did...sorry. I see it now and I agree there is nothing like a little tension breaker. When my sister or her fiance want to change the subject they will say, "look at that lamp"

Not sure where it originated but it is always funny.

not as good as the boobie thing though in my opinion.

Semele, who has put away the boobies for now!!!

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Semele
I thought surely EW would say something at least.

:rolleyes:

[Semele]

:uzi: :heartthro

[eaglewolf]

Seme\ _:smash:

[Semele]

Thanks EW I love you too!!! 8O

Semele

[eaglewolf]

;)

[mol]

Quit Pounding my wife!
:D

[bluecat]

Quick, look at the lamp!

BlueCat

[eaglewolf]

:uzi: http://community.mysticwicks.com/avatar.php?userid=1

[Niamh]

:crazy:
I love you guys...
Quit pounding... HA! :)

[Semele]

Lamps....heehee..see its working already?!?!?!

EW, don't kill Mol he does all the housework and I am counting on that to gain him custody in court should we ever divorce!!! :eek:

Semele

[Niamh]

You GO woman!:sunny:

[mol]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
:uzi: http://community.mysticwicks.com/avatar.php?userid=1

Possession is 9/10 of the law.

Hehe...

[Niamh]

How I wish my scanner was working...
How I wish I had a better version of Photoshop...
Oh, how I'm not going to dare attempt anything tonight, as I might be censored and banned from the community!
Cute Mol...:D
And no, I'm not thinking about doing anything to Your photo... but my own!:bad:

[eaglewolf]

Originally posted by Semele
Mol he does all the housework
http://aboutwicca.com/images/whipped.gif

[Niamh]

Oh dear, I think I need to go to bed!:)

[mol]

Originally posted by eaglewolf

http://aboutwicca.com/images/whipped.gif

All right...that is the LAST straw!! Err...rope...er...whip.

I am exposing you my friend! That was not a real pic of eaglewolf in the pictures thread everyone! But, I have the real thing....

See in the attachment below!

[eaglewolf]

:)

[mol]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
:)



Dont even try it, ew...you have been found out.

[eaglewolf]

;)

[mol]

Originally posted by eaglewolf
;)

Dont put your face on my pic! LOL!

[Tigerwallah]

I'm a 30 something never married woman. I was raised by a strong mother, went to an all girl, Catholic school. I didn't realize that there was discrimination in the world until I hit the workplace. Have had many experiences with getting paid less for "better" job. I've run up against both men and women who set us back.

Guys, you are not the norm. If you are here, on a pagan site, accepting the Goddess as well as the God, then you are far more enlightened than most of what is out there. I recently move to Virginia Beach, home of Pat Robertson (need I say more?) from a suburb of NYC. What a culture shock. This is worse than anything I've ever encountered, but I'm not saying it was wonderful before.

I am without a doubt looked down upon for being without a man and not having children - both by women and men. If I had a dime for everytime someone told me that "You'll change your mind" about not wanting to get married or have children, and the look of horror and shock that is solicited by my declaration... well, you know the old saying.

I believe that we all have ancestor memory. A majority of Pagans were whiped out from 500ad until all too recently. I believe that we are here, at this site, not by accident. Again, we keep the names of the Gods and Goddesses alive, but we are the minority. We are the remnants of a gentler, matrilineal society that embraced wisdom. The majority of society, however, are the ancestors of the victors who embraced war, and introduced their single, all powerful, male god as a political tool to help them gain control and power. A majority of humans believe that they are in "God's Image." Well, if God is male, then only the men are in his true image. The Pope reiterated this when he told a nun, during a trip to NY in 1985, that she could not be a priest because women were not created in the image of God.

So, if a majority of people aren't pagan, then women don't have much of a chance. They still remember when women were revered as healers, bread-winners, and political and spiritual leaders, and they fear it. Yes, things appear to be changing, but are they really? Is it just a surface change? The other day, I overheard two older men talking about a rape case. One said to the other, "Well, she wasn't a virgin. So, how can she say she was raped?" His compainion agreed with him that a woman who has "given it away" didn't deserve to claim she was raped. I was sickened by this conversation and the implications. Here it is. This is what is out there. It may not be what's in here, but there are more of them then there are of us.

I believe, however, that with our support, equality will, eventually prevail. I'm just not sure when.

[belladonna23]

ROTFLMAO!! You guys are both nuts!!

[Kaylara]

I have heard that reasoning over and over again. "The woman asked for it for dressing like that", "She deserved it" as if there is any situation when it would be okay to rape someone. Do these same people think of children who are molested, "They deserved it"?
In my mind, there is no difference between these two situations. I was a recipient of both of these kinds of crime, and it makes my blood boil when I hear statements that anyone deserves something like this!!!!!! :mad: :G :meanface:
Somethings that completely exemplify this way of thinking are our laws regarding rape and molestation.
When a woman is raped, "IF" she goes to the police, (I say if because the majority of rapes are not reported for fear of stigma, or for fear of their rapist. The same goes for molestation.) she can be met with a very wary eye from police. (Any one who has gone through this experience know that the last thing you need after this happens is to have someone not believe you; this destroys a person.) The same happens when you are molested. You are met with suspicion, and are not initially trusted.
The real show of how owr society feels about this subject, however, is shown in our prosecution of the criminals, and the punishment of the criminals.
The victims of rape and molestation *must* take the stand and face the person who wounded them face to face, otherwise, he or she will not be punished for their actions. Then there is the punishment. Most rapists and molesters will get a short time in jail. Yes, there are laws in place for child molesters where they have to notify the local government and community. Rapists do not have to do that. But we send people who are found possessing drugs to jail for twice as long as people who sexually abuse someone! :mad: This to me is completely ridiculous!
Sorry for going on a rant, but you brought up a very good point, and this is a subject that I am very passionate about!
I agree that many women are complacent about their station in life, but I guess that is their right. I have nothing against stay at home mothers (as long as they are doing their job. If you are a stay at home mother, and do not take care of your children, well, I cannot use that language here.) that is your decision, and as long as you are happy, I am happy for you. If you are a career women, and you are happy, then I am happy for you. I for one am not complacent about this. I am proud to be who I am, and what I have gone through has made me a stronger person. There are somethings that I regret happened, but I have dealt with them and moved on. I will continue to be an outspoken woman, and I will fight (figuratively speaking) for my rights to the best of my ability.

Kaylara

[Witchbourne]

About Feminists....

I'll agree that it is ****et up that W and M are not paid ecually for the same works that they do and i agree that W should have the same amount of right and freedom as M......but sometimes they who call them self feminists really are rediculous...i mean that yes i agree with the real isue...but when the begin to complaine about men in the sence that are almost yellousy of having a dick or something like that...hmm..then i think they have taken it abit to far....and those who do that i really don't think much about...becouse they seam to have lost a screw..smiles*....hey not every woman side are bad now are they....that is what it sometimes sound like....how come that we newer hear anything positive thoughts about being a woman....shoerly there most be many things....and i thought about it....would it not be good to show those men who don't understand you the good sides to a woman....becoause if only the negative is shown all the time how can you then get something positive......i know that positive feeds positive....so if you really want the shanges to take place...bring positive and resieve positive......ohh...i'll hope this i have writted now arent understod the wrong way.....no....i dont say that you should not keep fighting....ah...keep fighting for your rights but fight in the right way...and dont get stucked on small details that have really nothing to do with the fight for womans right......and we all now that as long as there is old farts in the guvement and there they deside things there will never be a shange....there should be more young people in the guverments and high post to really get some shanges to take place becouse the young know about the way of equal and the old are to much stucked in the old way ..so they can never see foward....well one can go on talking about this forever...but really don't i have a point in all this words??

Blessed be*

[belladonna23]

Hi, Kaylara, how've ya been?
I agree with you. It's totally f***ed up for someone to think on one hand, if a child is molested, well then lock the molester up and throw away the key, but if a woman is raped, well, she asked for it, so what?
I call myself a feminist, and unfortunately, a lot of people equate the word "feminist" with "man-basher". I don't hate men. I've liked and loved lots of them, I have the best one in the whole world in my life right now. I do hate the attitude I get from many of them. For about 8 years, I've worked in a male-dominated field. Most of my customers are men, as are most of my co-workers. In fact, at my last job I was the only female that worked there ever, except as a bookkeeper!! I got really sick of people second-guessing me and doubting my ability to do my job...eventually, it got so bad, I quit. I remember having female customers come in, and when I would try to obtain the necessary info from them, they would answer "how would I know, I'm just a girl".
THAT is what makes me sick. When women don't learn to love and respect their femininity and resign themselves to always playing second string.
I also get really pissed off at career women who look down on stay-at-home wives and mothers. I don't have any children (yet), but from what I've seen it's a very difficult and time-consuming job. I have great respect for women who are successful at maintaining a home and a family, whether they have a full-time job outside the home as well, or not.

[Tigerwallah]

Hey, guys. I just want to clarify that I was in no way putting home makers down. I totally believe that raising a child is the most important job anyone could do. I was just saying that society looks at me as some sort of abnormality because I do not want a man or child. I should have elaborated, but didn't think anyone would have taken it that way. Sorry :(. I tend to be blunt. Both my sister and best friend are home makers and I have tremendous respect for the jobs that they do. My job is over at the end of the day, theirs is a 24 hour job. Totally not my calling.
I also want to say that the women I spoke of who set us back are not necessarily home makers. I didn't elaborate, but I meant women who live life as if they only have worth if a man finds them attractive. I mean women who can't change their own tires or program their vcrs. I meant women who let their men humiliate and degrade them. I meant women who are not strong and independent and do not teach their daughters to be independent and strong.
I'm new here. So, let me just introduce myself. At first I come across as abrasive, but that's just because I am blunt. Honestly, I'm very good natured and open-minded. I tend to be brutally honest. Life is too short to dance around the subject. I alway say that I am quickly becoming Shirley McLaine's character in Steele Magnolias. I'm a bit nuts. Last year I didn't wear anything but my pajamas. Sometimes I lack patience. I have a tough exterior, but have a soft heart, although that is probably the last time I'll ever admit to that.
I'm a talented artist, and that often makes me bitter because I can see how beautiful the world could be, and am frustrated because of how dark and dismal it often is. This is me!!! Oh, I do tend to be a bit of a man basher, but I'm in the aftermath of a bad breakup. It's part of the healing process, I'm told.

Blessed Be!!!

[Yvonne Belisle]

I would just like to point out how screwed up some things in this world are. I use a cane and was at college one day I was leaving the library with my freehand full of books. I actually had a gentleman ask me "If I open the door for you are you going to hit me?". I asked him why he would ask something like that and was told that the last time he saw a woman with her hands full and he opened the door for her he was attacked. I have spoken to a number of my guy friends and many have had that happen. I tell this because it shows extremes in behavior and how out of hand we are getting as a society. As women we demand and expect respect for who we are yet commonly we are beginning to attack men verbally and physically for being polite. Is it any wonder when there are people who behave in this appalling manner that men are beginning to call feminists rabid? I also know a young man who cleans houses or did he quit because he was tired of people thinking he couldn't do a good job because he was a man. They told him flat out that several clients requested he not be sent because they didn't think that he would do as well as a women. "Men don't know how to clean" I think we need to be careful not to fall into that same trap.
I personally believe strongly in freedom of speech. I will defend to the death your right to say what you believe. It does not matter if I agree with it or not you have a right to say it. I think that this thread will be a test of our community because it is a topic that is close to peoples hearts and we seem to be made up of strong individuals. The challenge is to view this thread with an open mind when the way someone phrases something doesn't sit well with us. If we all viewed life in the same light we would be very boring individuals.

[gunner]

i think my old senior drill instructor, s/sgt ernie truax, back in '55 would have been amused to hear that. "absolute perfection was only barely good enough" and he could spot a speck of dust clear across the parade deck.

[Kalima]

I asked him why he would ask something like that and was told that the last time he saw a woman with her hands full and he opened the door for her he was attacked. I have spoken to a number of my guy friends and many have had that happen. I tell this because it shows extremes in behavior and how out of hand we are getting as a society.
<snippety>
I also know a young man who cleans houses or did he quit because he was tired of people thinking he couldn't do a good job because he was a man. They told him flat out that several clients requested he not be sent because they didn't think that he would do as well as a women. "Men don't know how to clean" I think we need to be careful not to fall into that same trap.


My SO is an 'old-fashioned' guy - right down to the fact that he feels uncomfortable not walking on the road side of the footpath. He also did a secretarial course once he completed highschool, and had similar difficulties getting a job, because people didn't want a male receptionist. I feel very strongly about feminist issues (being Dianic) but I also feel that we have to acknowledge the fact that these issues now also include rights for males in traditionally 'female' jobs - like childcarers, receptionists and homemakers.

[Kaylara]

The question is, how can we change these things that we don't like. By giving women, homosexuals, african americans, spanish, etc. people a minority status, we say that they are not as capable as white males at many things. It also means that they get advantages, and special programs that white men do not have.
This is not the way things should be handled. No one should be afforded different status, in this "land of the free". I think that in order to stop this PC BS, there needs to be a major shift in the way that people think about each other. If you give a certain group a slang name you de-humanize them, and can look down upon them. In order to stop the violence against each other, we need to be completely aware of our actions and words. I cannot change my neighbors behavior, but I can change my own, and set an example.
Kaylara

[Yvonne Belisle]

I just got a set of unusual trivia cards and one of the things on them is the original definition of the word hussy. These cards were made in 1984 and state that the definition of hussy was originally a "housewife". I just thought it was interesting so I shared.

[gunner]

i agree kaylara, the idea is not to create and then subsidise a "plebe class" but to give as many as possible the opportunity to rise as far as their abilities, knowledge, skills and ambition will take them and placing no artificial road blocks in their path. basically the notion of groups with "special rights" is ultimately divisive, setting one against another as i too often see in our society here and now (though happily not in this community) when we should all be trying to work together to build our "house". as to "hate crimes" my feeling is that assault and murder are crimes and should be dealt with no matter who the victim, male, female, gay or straight, black, white etc. each victim is a person entitled to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" and taking away that right by theft, rape or murder is a crime no matter what social group the victim might belong to and that crime should be punished. blessed be.
"gunner"

[Djiril]

*bump*:)