Are Dragons Dinosaurs?

[LadyTrinity]

I am curious.. We dont see legendary castle tall dragons but there are dragons around still like the Komono and water dragon.
Does anyone think that dragons are dinosaurs? :steppy:

[Terestai]

:fphone
"Hello. Cook County Psychiatric? I think we have a live one!"

[Blair]

I think they were probably(if they existed) another lizard species similar to the dragon species still around. Btw, I love my Mountain Horned Dragon, he's so cure :)

[Aes Sidhe]

I have absolutely no doubts that the dinosaurs currently adorning our museums and school text books are the dragons that adorn our "fairy tales".

Interestingly enough there are hundreds of cave paintings of dinosaurs in the USA itself. I'm supprised you don't know about them. ;)

[LadyTrinity]

A lizard the size of a house? Scary!!

[TaysatWesir]

I wish I could remember the show that mentioned medieval knights could have mistaken dinosaur bones for dragon remains. It Is my belief that dragons are dinosaurs I am fond of both species.

[savannahrose44]

Um...I'm thinkin no. :thumbsdow

[Aes Sidhe]

Um...I'm thinkin no. :thumbsdow


just a question... why not?

[Terestai]

A lizard the size of a house? Scary!!

That's what I heard the last time I took off my....

Oh. Never mind. :bigredblu

It was only galoshes, I swear! There was something living inside them. A large anole.

[LadyTrinity]

That's what I heard the last time I took off my....

Oh. Never mind. :bigredblu

It was only galoshes, I swear! There was something living inside them. A large anole.
:mmm:

[Druchii]

Some years ago a Central Queensland farmer recovered a number of unusual bones on his property. Believing he had made an important find he gave the bones to university palaeontologists in Brisbane.The bones caused a sensation among Australian palaeontologists; not because they were from the giant Australian monitor lizard Megalania prisca Owen, believed extinct at least several thousand years, but because they dated as recent as 300 years old!
This disclosure implies that, if these huge monsters were still roaming Queensland's interior a mere 300 years ago, then claimed sightings of these reptiles in modern times in remote areas of Australia suggest Megalania is far from extinct.
It was a monitor lizard that is over 7 meters long and was suppossed to have gone extinct when most of the large mega fauna on earth died.
But, I do think that at least as far as fossil remanents go, I do believe that it is the basis if not a helping aspect in the legend of dragons.

[Aes Sidhe]

Interestingly enough, on this topic, many of the "dragons teeth" found to adorn viking, germanic and other "barbaric" tribes' sheilds and helmets of the middle ages are of the same size and shape as "dinosaur" teeth... And, what's even more interesting, is they weren't fossilized. (meaning they could not be older than 12 000 or so years)

[Aes Sidhe]

Oh, also, in canada, they found unfossilised dinosaur bones containing DNA... I don't remember exactly the "life-span" of DNA, but I know it is remarkably short.

[LadyTrinity]

wow!

[Druchii]

Interestingly enough, on this topic, many of the "dragons teeth" found to adorn viking, germanic and other "barbaric" tribes' sheilds and helmets of the middle ages are of the same size and shape as "dinosaur" teeth... And, what's even more interesting, is they weren't fossilized. (meaning they could not be older than 12 000 or so years)


I have heard of that! :) They often classify them to different species of sharks or whales. And the dang things aren't even CLOSE in shape or functionality design as teeth.

[Aes Sidhe]

I have heard of that! :) They often classify them to different species of sharks or whales. And the dang things aren't even CLOSE in shape or functionality design as teeth.


Well, it's just easier to hide and deny the evidence than to admit your theories about evolution are wrong lol :p

[savannahrose44]

just a question... why not?

Dinosaurs and the dragons of ledgend are two different things. As far as I know there is no evidence that dinosaurs ever breathed fire. Where as folk lore and ledgend states that dragons did. :smile:

[Old Witch]

The alligators and crocodiles are basically dinosaurs........As for dragons...my heart wants to believe, but my mind won't get out of the way...

[Druchii]

Dinosaurs and the dragons of ledgend are two different things. As far as I know there is no evidence that dinosaurs ever breathed fire. Where as folk lore and ledgend states that dragons did. :smile:


Finally! :D all those months calling myself a draconologist pay off! :D Okay, It is interesting to speculate whether "fire-breathing monsters" have some basis in reality. After all, who would have thought that an electric eel or firefly was real if they had not been seen? A few lines of evidence should be considered. First, there is the fairly clear teaching of scripture. The Bible leaves very little room for a hyperbole or metaphor interpretation. Job 41:19-21 says of Leviathan that, "Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils goes smoke as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth." Secondly there is the matter of historical evidence. That is, multiple societies that were widely separated tell stories of fire-breathing dragons. Why did they all chance upon the dragon? Thirdly, we can consider some biological evidence. There is a "fire-breathing" beetle called the bombadier beetle. Hydrogen Peroxide and Hydroquinone are contained in separate chambers in the beetle’s abdomen, from where it can be ejected to confront a predator with an explosive mixture reaching 212º F! Lastly, there is some paleontological evidence that a skull arrangement could have accommodated "fire-breathing." In the book "Dinosaurs by Design", Dr. Duane Gish discusses how the hadrosaurs’ nasal cavities could easily have connected to chemical reserves in the hollow, horny crest. Perhaps Leviathan used this ability as a defensive weapon, just like the beetles. No wonder God uses him to make the point in verse 10 "None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?" Indeed, the Bible describes God Himself as a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). BUT, this is then if you want to say that the bible is more or less a history book or true scripture.

[Druchii]

The alligators and crocodiles are basically dinosaurs........As for dragons...my heart wants to believe, but my mind won't get out of the way...


The species are as old as dinosaurs, but a completely different classification. :) And I agree, my heart tells me one thing, but my mind races the other way...

[LadyTrinity]

if a dragon is not a dinosaur what breed of animal is it.. I doubt its a lizard :eyez:

[Old Witch]

:lol: I said basically...I know they aren't dinosaurs....

[Druchii]

Well, it's just easier to hide and deny the evidence than to admit your theories about evolution are wrong lol :p

Can we say "Bahgdad Battery"? The Egyptian Glider? Or the Roman artifacts that keep surfacing in Texas? Yeah, it's fringe archeology only because no one wants to risk challenging the establishment. :)

[Druchii]

:lol: I said basically...I know they aren't dinosaurs....


:lol: My apologies Old Witch, I got carried away. Right after I posted I was like... OF COURSE she knows that! It's Old Witch! There isn't a lot she doesn't know. Sorry about that! :D

[Druchii]

if a dragon is not a dinosaur what breed of animal is it.. I doubt its a lizard :eyez:


Well that is the breed. A dinosaur. Not all creatures during the reign of dinosaurs were as such though, the ones in the sea, ( Elasmosarus, Tylosaurus ) and the flying reptiles like Pteradactyls were not related to T-Rex, Triceratops, or any of the others. What sets them apart is the hip bone which is shaped like modern day bird's hip bones are.

[Terestai]

if a dragon is not a dinosaur what breed of animal is it.. I doubt its a lizard :eyez:

Well the komodo dragon, alligator and crocodile are all reptiles.

[LadyTrinity]

Well the komodo dragon, alligator and crocodile are all reptiles.

:thumbsup:

[Old Witch]

:lol: I wish I knew half as much as I think I know, Druchii...My thoughts on the dragons.......just my ramblings, nothing scientific or whatever....If they did exist, they'd just about have to be reptiles.......well say the scientists were wrong...A"dinosaur" lived after the asteroid struck...a few survived somehow....Maybe they had wings...maybe the fire breathing stuff came about because of "methane " breath...Digestion took a long time say, primitve humans had fire...waved a rudimentry torch in the face of a dragon, a burp or even the breath had enough methane to ignite...There you go....fire breathing dragons....Stories handred down over the campfires for hundreds and hundreds of years........Legend is born....Just my ramblings, or maybe something I heard on the Discovery Channel when I was mostly asleep....:lol:

[Druchii]

:lol: I wish I knew half as much as I think I know, Druchii...My thoughts on the dragons.......just my ramblings, nothing scientific or whatever....If they did exist, they'd just about have to be reptiles.......well say the scientists were wrong...A"dinosaur" lived after the asteroid struck...a few survived somehow....Maybe they had wings...maybe the fire breathing stuff came about because of "methane " breath...Digestion took a long time say, primitve humans had fire...waved a rudimentry torch in the face of a dragon, a burp or even the breath had enough methane to ignite...There you go....fire breathing dragons....Stories handred down over the campfires for hundreds and hundreds of years........Legend is born....Just my ramblings, or maybe something I heard on the Discovery Channel when I was mostly asleep....:lol:


Huh. :foh: Not a bad theory. Not at all. :)

[charmedkisses1]

Well really it depends what KIND of dragons you are talking about. I am quite sure that if dragons existed that they were dinosaur-like creatures ( a komodo dragon is much much smaller, but still deadly).
Ancient kings used to keep (or try to) dragons up in the courts (see Chinese paintings, etc), and they are mentioned in the Old Testament about Babylon, etc tons of times (I think).
Guardian dragons are a different story. They were more like guides than predators, and seen often in the astral plane.
No one can prove the reptilian dragons weren't like any other dinasaur (they certainly were built for destruction) Maybe the "fire breathing" kind created fire by excreting a certain gas from a gland in their throat or something? But the guardians had nothing to do with that. I can't explain it well, sorry. :crazy:

[savannahrose44]

Finally! :D all those months calling myself a draconologist pay off! :D Okay, It is interesting to speculate whether "fire-breathing monsters" have some basis in reality. After all, who would have thought that an electric eel or firefly was real if they had not been seen? A few lines of evidence should be considered. First, there is the fairly clear teaching of scripture. The Bible leaves very little room for a hyperbole or metaphor interpretation. Job 41:19-21 says of Leviathan that, "Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. Out of his nostrils goes smoke as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindles coals, and a flame goes out of his mouth." Secondly there is the matter of historical evidence. That is, multiple societies that were widely separated tell stories of fire-breathing dragons. Why did they all chance upon the dragon? Thirdly, we can consider some biological evidence. There is a "fire-breathing" beetle called the bombadier beetle. Hydrogen Peroxide and Hydroquinone are contained in separate chambers in the beetle’s abdomen, from where it can be ejected to confront a predator with an explosive mixture reaching 212º F! Lastly, there is some paleontological evidence that a skull arrangement could have accommodated "fire-breathing." In the book "Dinosaurs by Design", Dr. Duane Gish discusses how the hadrosaurs’ nasal cavities could easily have connected to chemical reserves in the hollow, horny crest. Perhaps Leviathan used this ability as a defensive weapon, just like the beetles. No wonder God uses him to make the point in verse 10 "None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?" Indeed, the Bible describes God Himself as a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). BUT, this is then if you want to say that the bible is more or less a history book or true scripture.

Well I don't go with the whole biblical aspect of this, but I suppose it is possible...I just have a hard time making that kind of connection in my mind...but then again no one really wants to crush the world of fantasy with that of reality. :lol: I guess it's a matter of preferance. I would prefer dragons were not dinosaurs. But that's just me. Thanks for the information though...it was fascinating and truely something I was not aware of. :)

[Tangerines]

No, not at all.

[Élistariel]

In one aspect, I believe that fossils of dinosaurs could have been found in the middle ages, and thus helped to create the myth and legend of dragons.
On the other hand, part of me wants to believe in dragons, fire breathing or no. That part of me says that dragons and dinosaurs were like, cousins. I don't know the exact terms, but like Horses and Zebras, they are both equines, and they can mix (offspring is sterile, thus no zebra-horse mule combos), but a horse is not a zebra and a zebra is not a horse

[Aes Sidhe]

Well, the trouble with the "they dug up fossils" thing, is that the "dragon's teeth" that adorn sheilds, helms and various other bits of armour, are the exact same as dinosaur teeth, and are unfosilised.

Oh, and as little as 200 years ago there was a T-Rex roaming around in Canada, they have found dinosaur DNA in unfossilised dinosaur bones in Canada.

Just think... while the american revolution was in full swing, the canadians were killing off giant reptiles lol... explains alot about canada ;) (that's a joke peeps)

[Élistariel]

Aes Sidhe, could you please provide sources to that information?

[Aes Sidhe]

(A)Mary H. Schweitzer, Mark Marshall, Keith Carron, D. Scott Bohle, Scott C. Busse, Ernst V. Arnold, Darlene Barnard, J. R. Horner*, and Jean R. Starkey, Heme compounds in dinosaur trabecular bone, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, Evolution, Vol. 94, pp. 6291-6296, June 1997;
(B)Science News, November 11, 1995, Volume 128

[Aes Sidhe]

I'll get the reference for the max life-span of hemoglobin when I find it. (I had to dig through piles of magazines just to find those ones)

[Aelfoak]

I think that the Komono, just like the Crocodile, are just a few rare lizards that have survived since the dinosaur age without really having to evolve that much, seeing that the Crocodile has no known predators (apart from man) then it has not really had to evolve or adapt, i think that this goes for the Komono as it is a huge beast too.

[LadyTrinity]

Well, the trouble with the "they dug up fossils" thing, is that the "dragon's teeth" that adorn sheilds, helms and various other bits of armour, are the exact same as dinosaur teeth, and are unfosilised.

Oh, and as little as 200 years ago there was a T-Rex roaming around in Canada, they have found dinosaur DNA in unfossilised dinosaur bones in Canada.

Just think... while the american revolution was in full swing, the canadians were killing off giant reptiles lol... explains alot about canada ;) (that's a joke peeps)



:yikes:

[Druchii]

Well, the trouble with the "they dug up fossils" thing, is that the "dragon's teeth" that adorn sheilds, helms and various other bits of armour, are the exact same as dinosaur teeth, and are unfosilised.

Oh, and as little as 200 years ago there was a T-Rex roaming around in Canada, they have found dinosaur DNA in unfossilised dinosaur bones in Canada.

Just think... while the american revolution was in full swing, the canadians were killing off giant reptiles lol... explains alot about canada ;) (that's a joke peeps)

Well, I knew that they had found un-fossilized bones in Alaska, of Hadrosaurs and of Pygmy T-Rexes, if I remember right. It was in the papers and the bones are real, and they were tested and still had trace evidence of hemoglobin within the bone. Jack Horner, who is a respected but radical paleontologist was completely psyched about the fact that it meant that what geology and bedrock proof had been telling us about dinosaurs was wrong. At least to a point. Because these bones are proof that they didn't die out when we are led to believe they did. There are a mulitude of sites that talk about the findings of un fossilized bones. Anyone who wants can just google or yahoo "unfossilized dinosaur bones" and quite a bit of info pops up on it. Animals just don't ALL die out. The world for all its fragile state is still an enormous place. If it took that long for us to find and catalogue the coelacanth, even though it was accepted as truth that the darn thing was extinct, what does that tell you? That science changes and evolves, sometimes kicking and screaming along the way, but it does.

[Bainidhe Dub]

Hmmm.. *wanders off to research* Interesting... But then, I've always just gone with my heart on this one.. dragons and unicorns exist(ed). *smiles*

[Druchii]

Hmmm.. *wanders off to research* Interesting... But then, I've always just gone with my heart on this one.. dragons and unicorns exist(ed). *smiles*

You mean karkadanns ( or Elasmotherium) ? Look that up. There is plenty of weird sites about it, but a partial skeleton of one I believe was found. I don't know much about this or other unicorns. :)
The character that Antonio Banderas portrays, in the 13th Warrior, is loosely based on the travler Ahmad ibn Fadlan, who had written about this creature in his travels. This was during the 10th century.

[Bainidhe Dub]

You mean karkadanns ( or Elasmotherium) ? Look that up. There is plenty of weird sites about it, but a partial skeleton of one I believe was found. I don't know much about this or other unicorns. :)
The character that Antonio Banderas portrays, in the 13th Warrior, is loosely based on the travler Ahmad ibn Fadlan, who had written about this creature in his travels. This was during the 10th century.

A bit off topic (bad me), but yeah.. like the karkadanns. I've read other stuff on them.. can't remember where - but I definitely have to look them up some more.

[Aes Sidhe]

the way I see it, Myth = Truth + Time

Can't you just see it, some impoverished night comes across a decent sized, herbivore dinosaur... say, stegasaurus... kills it, takes it's spikes off its tail, goes to the nearest town.

To get a free meal and some booze, he shows the spikes and says "yeah, it was this monstrous beast, scales like armour, huge spikes, very deadly, and I beat it".

So, someone in the tavern goes out and tells the rest of the town that this "hero" slayed a mighty beast, that was 10 feet tall, had massive claws, big sharp teeth, had eaten a hundred peasants and was heading towards their villiage.

As the story spreads, it is ever increasingly embellished, until finally, the impoverished knight suddenly is a great and Holy hero, who riding tall in the saddle confronted a winged beast 100 feet long, with huge claws and teeth, that breathed fire and decimated villiages.

Now, say you have a couple of hundred of these impoverished nights all though Europe, you don't need there to be many dinosaurs left by this stage through hunting, climate change and loss of habitat, and you have the myths that we see today.

[Druchii]

the way I see it, Myth = Truth + Time

Can't you just see it, some impoverished night comes across a decent sized, herbivore dinosaur... say, stegasaurus... kills it, takes it's spikes off its tail, goes to the nearest town.

To get a free meal and some booze, he shows the spikes and says "yeah, it was this monstrous beast, scales like armour, huge spikes, very deadly, and I beat it".

So, someone in the tavern goes out and tells the rest of the town that this "hero" slayed a mighty beast, that was 10 feet tall, had massive claws, big sharp teeth, had eaten a hundred peasants and was heading towards their villiage.

As the story spreads, it is ever increasingly embellished, until finally, the impoverished knight suddenly is a great and Holy hero, who riding tall in the saddle confronted a winged beast 100 feet long, with huge claws and teeth, that breathed fire and decimated villiages.

Now, say you have a couple of hundred of these impoverished nights all though Europe, you don't need there to be many dinosaurs left by this stage through hunting, climate change and loss of habitat, and you have the myths that we see today.

Can we say St. George and the Dragon? :D I agree.

[Rockprincess]

Druchii and Aes...land dinosaurs did not live in historical times. Really. I know you have all kinds of theories on the age of the earth, Aes, but...you're off base with this one. The knights found dinosaur remains, sure. Live dinosaurs, no way.

[TheTempestuous1]

i dont really believe in dragons....

[Aes Sidhe]

Druchii and Aes...land dinosaurs did not live in historical times. Really. I know you have all kinds of theories on the age of the earth, Aes, but...you're off base with this one. The knights found dinosaur remains, sure. Live dinosaurs, no way.


How so? There are plenty of cases of sightings of live dinosaurs in the last 60 years. These are becomming rarer and rarer (obviously), but what makes you so certain that live dinosaurs STILL don't exist?

[Isil Darkmoon]

How so? There are plenty of cases of sightings of live dinosaurs in the last 60 years. These are becomming rarer and rarer (obviously), but what makes you so certain that live dinosaurs STILL don't exist?

This I haven't heard of--unless you're going to quote the Loch Ness sightings. I've seen articles on rare animal sightings, to be sure, but I haven't come across anything that could be a dino sighting... but I haven't been really looking either. Could you reference me to some of these? I'm intrigued.

[Aes Sidhe]

It'd take me a while to look through all my journals. But there are a few seperate occasions, of sightings of at least 3 different types in the congo. Lochness I have no doubt was once a dinosaur (I think it's probably dead).

There are also sightings of "giant sea serpents" by fishing vessels even today if you care to google it. I'll go though my journals and pull a few up for you all.

[Aowyn]

seems like i remember there are supposed to be some like nessie in the US, yes yes give links please!!!

[TheTempestuous1]

it seems like I remember reading an uber psycho christian site saying stuff about dinos still being alive today in africa, because thats where god hid them ... blah blah, to keep in their bibley head that the world was 4,000 years old I dont remeber....

[Druchii]

Druchii and Aes...land dinosaurs did not live in historical times. Really. I know you have all kinds of theories on the age of the earth, Aes, but...you're off base with this one. The knights found dinosaur remains, sure. Live dinosaurs, no way.

How do you explain the unfossilized dinosaur bones? :) Once again people thought the coelocanth was extinct, and it isn't. Just wondering but why do you think they did not? I have posted all kinds of pictures of unusual animals, some that weren't identifiable off the bat, and seemed otherworldly or strange at first sight to many who are not accustomed to seeing things like that. My point is that the chances of a dinosaur living till today is not that far fetched considering that some species of turtles ( Galapogos ), sharks ( Great White, Bull, Goblin) , fish ( Coelocanth ), and crocodilians, have managed to survive whatever cataclysmic happening that occured to kill off so much of the life on the planet. They are found in fossil rockbeds with Stegosaurus bones, and yet I have to believe that some comet killed off certain specific lifeforms and not others because some scientist believes it? Nah, not all professionals are right, sometimes inspired amatuers are the ones to discover new paths.

[Druchii]

This I haven't heard of--unless you're going to quote the Loch Ness sightings. I've seen articles on rare animal sightings, to be sure, but I haven't come across anything that could be a dino sighting... but I haven't been really looking either. Could you reference me to some of these? I'm intrigued.


Check out Cryptozoology.com and look at the gallery of cryptids.

[Druchii]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i3/dinosaurbones.asp


http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/old/old.htm

[Druchii]

How so? There are plenty of cases of sightings of live dinosaurs in the last 60 years. These are becomming rarer and rarer (obviously), but what makes you so certain that live dinosaurs STILL don't exist?


Case in point, the blue jaguar, which was driven to extinction by being used in Gladitorial fights in Rome. The only proof we have of it's existance is a handful of depictions in wall murals from that time period. Otherwise, an animal that occupied probably a large area of ranges like other big cats of today do, would have passed into oblivion without us being any the wiser. :)

[Aes Sidhe]

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i3/dinosaurbones.asp


http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/old/old.htm

Careful with the creation-science links, didn't you know, as soon as someone with a PHD becomes a christian they are no longer valid scientists ;)

[Isil Darkmoon]

It'd take me a while to look through all my journals. But there are a few seperate occasions, of sightings of at least 3 different types in the congo. Lochness I have no doubt was once a dinosaur (I think it's probably dead).

There are also sightings of "giant sea serpents" by fishing vessels even today if you care to google it. I'll go though my journals and pull a few up for you all.


If you wouldn't mind, I'd really appreciate that. I find this sort of thing absolutely fascinating.

I don't doubt Nessie's existance, or that it is/was a dinosaur, so much as so many of the *sightings* that are recorded that I've come across, especially recently, seem to be people seeing what they want to believe in, instead of well and solidly recorded ones.

I think a lot more people *think* they've seen Nessie/Bigfoot/Yetis/etc than actually have, because they want to... people see what's on the mind to some extent...

Same with anything, really... I've seen stats, for example, that pit bills have gotten a lot of bad press lately: non-"dog" people are reporting bites really from mastiffs, bulldogs, boxers, rotties, etc as "pit bull" bites because they're "on the brain" in the media...

I think it's kind of the same way with sightings... a UFO sighting spurs more--clouds and weather baloons become UFO's once the possibility enters people's minds... whereas if they see something they're not as familiar with, it becomes something much more "normal" sometimes... that half-seen shape I saw across the way must just be a cougar, not Druchii's blue jaguar, it couldnt' have been something weird, I haven't heard of that...

I think I'm rambling now so I"ll just hush.

[Druchii]

Careful with the creation-science links, didn't you know, as soon as someone with a PHD becomes a christian they are no longer valid scientists ;)


I know! :lol: I was trying to find this periodical where Jack Horner had talked about them, I want to say it was Scientific American, but I could be wrong. Watch it be the Fortean Times... :D Those 2 links were the only ones I could find last night with some feasibly documented reference.

[Druchii]

I think I'm rambling now so I"ll just hush.


You're not rambling, these are really cool subjects that I wish more of us could talk about more often, just like this with differeing stances and opinions, and no one has insulted, gotten mad, or not wanted to at least listen. :D

[Old Witch]

seems like i remember there are supposed to be some like nessie in the US, yes yes give links please!!!

Here is just one sight for "Champ"....Just google Lake Champlain "Champ"....

http://www.porthenry.com/phframes/champ.htm

[Rockprincess]

One thing you'll find, is that there are almost always published rebuttals to controversial scientific articles. So, I found some of the rebuttals to the articles you published:

With respect to the "red blood cells" (Dr. Horner is the researcher in whose lab the cells were purportedly "discovered"):

When asked directly about these claims, Dr Horner states that actual red blood cells had most certainly not been detected in his specimens. He wrote, ‘What we found was heme, a form of iron that has a biological origin, but of course, not any soft tissue or any other component of a cell. It’s preserved because it’s iron.’

And with respect to the "unfossilized" bones in the Linscomb bone beds (again a quote from Dr.Horner):

"If a bone was buried rapidly, and didn’t have an opportunity to have water deposit minerals within its spaces, then it would appear to be ‘unfossilized’ but actually all the bones examined like this have undergone some kind of replacement … many of my studies include microscopic examination of bone that has been only partially replaced.’"

So, with the researcher who is actually doing the lab work refuting the "recent origin" claims, I will remain skeptical.

[Rockprincess]

Careful with the creation-science links, didn't you know, as soon as someone with a PHD becomes a christian they are no longer valid scientists ;)
If you read those articles, you will notice that the writers are not scientific researchers with PhDs. They're creation science writers, who are adept at twisting words and sounding convincing.

[Aes Sidhe]

I've actually read 2 or 3 rebuttles to the rebuttles. It's a never-ending argument really, between those who want to perpetuate their own, currently accepted theories, and those that wish to get their names in the history books as the guy/gal who proved the others wrong.

Taking a look at the "objectivity" of any scientist, I find it impossible to believe anyone's analysis of the situtation.

I'll respect the evidence gathered, although question the techniques of the gathering... but the conclusions drawn, from any side of the debate, I reject at face value.

[Isil Darkmoon]

What are people's opinions on creatures like Nessie and Champ... very large aqua-dino creatures that have reliable sightings, even photographs, but then manage to evade any attempt at "formal" detection like sonar scans, etc? That's always puzzled me as something I have trouble making sense of.

[Rockprincess]

I've actually read 2 or 3 rebuttles to the rebuttles. It's a never-ending argument really, between those who want to perpetuate their own, currently accepted theories, and those that wish to get their names in the history books as the guy/gal who proved the others wrong.

Taking a look at the "objectivity" of any scientist, I find it impossible to believe anyone's analysis of the situtation.

I'll respect the evidence gathered, although question the techniques of the gathering... but the conclusions drawn, from any side of the debate, I reject at face value.
I'm going to take this to another thread, if you don't mind. We seem to be able to have a conversation without insulting each other today ;)

[Druchii]

I'm going to take this to another thread, if you don't mind. We seem to be able to have a conversation without insulting each other today ;)


:D I know! This is awesome!!!! :):):):):) No ones toes are getting stepped on and we are all learning!!!! :) ( I sound like such a dork... )

[Aes Sidhe]

What are people's opinions on creatures like Nessie and Champ... very large aqua-dino creatures that have reliable sightings, even photographs, but then manage to evade any attempt at "formal" detection like sonar scans, etc? That's always puzzled me as something I have trouble making sense of.

Well, I have always been concerned with this too, until I looked at who does the "sonar scanning", and the submarine explorations, or, did in the beginning... and they were all scientists who pushed, HEAVILY the idea of ALL dinosaurs dieing out millions of years ago. Indeed, it would not supprise me to learn one day that these "scientists" indeed killed nessie so that their theories would not be drastically disproven.

[Druchii]

What are people's opinions on creatures like Nessie and Champ... very large aqua-dino creatures that have reliable sightings, even photographs, but then manage to evade any attempt at "formal" detection like sonar scans, etc? That's always puzzled me as something I have trouble making sense of.


In my own opinion, there is something to these sightings. SOMETHING is there of course, but what? I have heard large sturgeon, undiscovered types of giant groupers, all kinds of things. If something diosauroid exists there then only repeated consistent analysis of any large body of water will yeild any results. But then there are those that say that there needs to be a sizeable number of them for a viable breeding population, which I totally agree with. But then what are people seeing? And example I like to use is one with bears. I was a merit badge counselor for 2 summers in a row at Philmont Scout Reservation and spent quite a long time out in the wilderness. There are bears in the area, and with the exception of one occurance, I never saw more than one bear. Ever. Not droppings, not dead remains, not so much as a growl.
My point is that some animal we know to exist like the bear isn't really encountered that often even in a place where there aren't a lot of humans, and it's on its home turf. So maybe Nessie, Champ, Ogopogo, Mokele-Mnembe, and so many other oddities of the animal kingdom exist but in so few numbers that they may be dying out, endangered, or just reclusive.

[shiris_t_wytch]

i got to agree with a few of the members on this one, i don't think that the dragon and dinosaure are related in any way, i think that the distance in time frame are to great, i have a real draw to dragons if you saw my house yuo would see how, full of the little bliters, but i digress, it is my opinion that dragons are a more recent that dinos, and that they went the same way as the great auk and the dodo, driven to extinction my man, and that's why alas they no longer live on this planet with us, my other half recons that they are here with us but they are like the unicorn, they only show themselfs to those they can trust, i wish that i could agree but alas i can't, but i still manage to find them in my meditations and at least they are safe there.

Gentle Breezes,
Shiris :broomride

[Aes Sidhe]

What "time-frame"?

It is entirely plausible that the time-frame given to us is entirely wrong lol

[Aowyn]

http://paranormal.about.com/b/a/004441.htm here is some info on the sea creature that is supposed to be on the chesapeake bay her name is Chessie. There was also several years ago a common beleif that the coelacanth was extinct yet they caught several between South Africa and Madagascar in the 1960s or 50s.

[Klucky]

LT, the first lesson in my Guardian Dragon class talks about whether or not they were dinosaurs. Maybe you'd like to look at it. :)

-Klucky

[shiris_t_wytch]

hi aes sidhe, by timeframe i ment that the dinosaures were for the most part were around many millions of years ago, and there is no fosil record of them, to my knowledge that has been found, althought i do concede that certain species thought to be extinct from that period still do survive, i will give an example, the loch ness monster, reputedly a plessiosaure "spelling" it is supposed to live in the main loch at inverness, i live not to far from there, and speeking as a scotsman, i can revele that IT'S A CON, i don't belive in coning people, it's not right, the folk from there should find another way of macking money, insted of robbing gulliable tourists, it's just not right, i have been quite a few times to the loch and as witch, there's nothing there exept big fish, and i meen BIG, we Do have a lot of thoughs in our lochs.

Gentle Breezes,
Shiris :broomride

[Aelfoak]

I found this link concerning Draconology and written by Dr. Volodimir Kapusianyk.

http://www.colba.net/~tempest1/Draconology/

[Pesha]

Dragons are dragons. Mine seems to think so anyway. I truely beleive they are a unique and separate species altogether.

BB
DS.