Reclaiming Lucifer

[Luciferish]

I have had many years of study in the Old Religion and I have started to wonder, when shall we reclaim Lucifer? He is the "Bringer of Light" and would herald a new era of Pagan Renaissance once we were able to reclaim him as the God he is, restored to his rightful place and drawn out of the Christian Hell that he has been thrust into unwillingly.

Symbolically speaking the references to him as Satan in the Bible of the Christians indicate he was "cast out of Heaven", though even the Christians are banging their heads over this vague reference in the KJV Bible. Many of them are beginning to realize that it was inserted into the bible very late and admitting that its a flaw in the KJV.

This would indicate that Lucifer, "one who casts away the darkness" was directly associated with heresy, not their Devil. The Christians have wanted the common man to remain in the dark for centuries, perhaps very soon we can disassociate Satan from him and reclaim him as our own.

Just a thought....

[Silverfangs]

I read somewere that Lucifer\Satan in the beginning was not described as beeing the one who creates evil but the one who "points" were it is.
For that, Lucifer wasn't always the "bad guy" in the Christian mithology, but the one who press charges against the ones who practice evil.
In my opinion I think that some figures in Christian mithology have been disfigured as time passed and the figure of Satan is one of them.

[Luciferish]

Well he was originally a Roman God, Brother to Diana, his story is obscured now by several hundred years of misinformation, much like the Old Religion is today. He is very much the Archetype of the religion in that respect, representing both our quest for understanding and our subjugation by the Christian religion.

The only problem is, we not only have to reclaim him from the Christians, but the Satanists, Goths and the Media. Quite a big task, but worth it. Ironically these same venues are also a detriment to the Old Religion in alot of ways. If we could reclaim him, I believe we could reclaim our identity as a culture.

[-Ember]

Do we want to "reclaim" Lucifer? Reconstruct him back to what he was? While his reputation has certainly suffered, some of the developements of satanists and even christians are not detrimental to the archetype.

[Luciferish]

Name one change the Christians, Satanists or Goths have made to the Archetype directly that improves his standing as the Bringer of Light and I may consider that argument.

The first question: "Do we want to "reclaim" Lucifer?"

I believe we must at some point accept that when the world accepts The Old Religion in its entirety he will have been reclaimed. Meaning he will no longer be consigned to some Christian purgatory. We would be able to speak freely of any association to the diety, even openly worship Lucifer with no fear of reprisals or persecution. As of right now if I started up a "Temple of Lucifer" it would be admonished by even most of the Pagans in the world, let alone its real enemies. I am sure such a tradition would secure station with such groups as Temple of Set and so forth.

[-Ember]

Hmmm... one change...

Well, it is my understanding that they really have given us the symbolism of struggling with him...that it isn't simply a gift of light he bears. You have to claim it.

And is the Promethean association early? I've understood it to be part of a later versions, enlightenment time period... Lucifer as the fallen God that raises man at his cost, that inspires and pushes, having fallen far enough to understand our struggle.......

[The High Queen of Faerie]

I have had many years of study in the Old Religion and I have started to wonder, when shall we reclaim Lucifer? He is the "Bringer of Light" and would herald a new era of Pagan Renaissance once we were able to reclaim him as the God he is, restored to his rightful place and drawn out of the Christian Hell that he has been thrust into unwillingly.

Symbolically speaking the references to him as Satan in the Bible of the Christians indicate he was "cast out of Heaven", though even the Christians are banging their heads over this vague reference in the KJV Bible. Many of them are beginning to realize that it was inserted into the bible very late and admitting that its a flaw in the KJV.

This would indicate that Lucifer, "one who casts away the darkness" was directly associated with heresy, not their Devil. The Christians have wanted the common man to remain in the dark for centuries, perhaps very soon we can disassociate Satan from him and reclaim him as our own.

Just a thought....
lucifer and satan are NOT synonomous.

thank you for your time.

[Ben Gruagach]

Hmmm... one change...

Well, it is my understanding that they really have given us the symbolism of struggling with him...that it isn't simply a gift of light he bears. You have to claim it.

And is the Promethean association early? I've understood it to be part of a later versions, enlightenment time period... Lucifer as the fallen God that raises man at his cost, that inspires and pushes, having fallen far enough to understand our struggle.......

I was under the impression that the Gnostics considered the classic biblical "antagonist" to be the deity worthy of worship, rather than the biblical "God."

I'm not really up on Christian sects though so I could be wrong. But isn't Gnostic philosophy based on the idea that the deity of the Old Testament is actually the evil one who we must fight against, and the deity of the New Testament preaches rejection of the physical world and is the "light bringer"?

Personally I don't agree with that philosophy but for those who are followers of Christian or at least biblical philosophy might find it makes sense.

[Velvet]

lucifer and satan are NOT synonomous.

thank you for your time.
Yea, Lucifer is a roman god and a christian angel, satan is the christian "god" that resides over the people in hell. Correct me, if I'm wrong.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Yea, Lucifer is a roman god and a christian angel, satan is the christian "god" that resides over the people in hell. Correct me, if I'm wrong.
that is pretty much correct. :D yay!:colorful:

[teishabee]

satan and luficer where never gods in christianity. They have been made equal through the church and peoples need to have balance. When they cannot see that god has all the balnace in himself.

Also satan is a beast is the bible and only latter does he have any refference to lucifier as being the same being.

[Luciferish]

I wasn't trying to say Lucifer = Satan..... We all know that he is not the same being, or we all should at any rate...

What I am getting at is, soon we must reclaim this God and place him in the proper place of a God and not some thing we don't deal with because the Christians messed with it...

[Velvet]

I wasn't trying to say Lucifer = Satan..... We all know that he is not the same being, or we all should at any rate...

What I am getting at is, soon we must reclaim this God and place him in the proper place of a God and not some thing we don't deal with because the Christians messed with it...
Why not just say Lucifer is a god, and not bother with what the christians think.

[-Ember]

I was under the impression that the Gnostics considered the classic biblical "antagonist" to be the deity worthy of worship, rather than the biblical "God."

I'm not really up on Christian sects though so I could be wrong. But isn't Gnostic philosophy based on the idea that the deity of the Old Testament is actually the evil one who we must fight against, and the deity of the New Testament preaches rejection of the physical world and is the "light bringer"?


Depends on what you mean by Gnostic. There were some gnostic sects in the first couple centuries CE that followed something similar, but only a few of many, many sects. In that sense, there are gnostic philosophies based on such, but it would be inappropriate to refer to all gnostic philosophies as being based in that belief.

I belive some followers of Crowley also call themselves gnostics, but I am not familiar enough with them to say if that is a base of their philosophy.

[Luciferish]

Why not just say Lucifer is a god, and not bother with what the christians think.


I think you should consider that we DO call him a god, but in the face of the climate in the United States it would be impossible to openly worship that god without reprisals.. What I am asking is why have we not faced that and forced the issue?

Websites like http://www.lucifer.com and other similar sites, as well as common references to "Lucifer" as being the devil are more than annoying, they hinder our progress as a religion. We seek to reclaim that which is old, nearly forgotten understanding of the earth, diety and humanity. Lucifer is they symbol of the suppression of that quest, christianity burried Lucifer to bury the human desire to understand the universe.. It worked for several hundred years, but we pagans, should look toward Lucifer with the desire to restore that God to his rightful place in history....

Not as Brother to Jesus and fallen angel...

Not as a mistranslation of some babalonian king that fell from power...

But as a God, bringer of light, hope that shines before the sun rises....

All of you cry about christian oppression, christian manipulation of the schools, workplaces and even your lives. But you don't see that if we don't RECLAIM our religious beliefs, gods and goddesses, spirits and ancestors as HOLY to us, then its all political and philosphical banter and means next to nothing.

[Ishna]

Howdy,

I'm sure that's not the correct spelling of the Italian witchcraft path, but I'm sure they would have much to say about Lucifer as a God, Luciferish. Also, try looking at some Religio Romuva (sp again, but have a look in the Google directory under People and Society, Religion, Pagan, I know they both have links in there, although you may need to hunt some more sub-categories under Pagan) websites and discussion forums, since that is Roman Reconstructionism.

IMHO, that would be the logical place to start.

Also, I know there is mention of Lucifer in Aradia, or the Gospel of Witches which can be found at a website called sacred-texts (yes with a dash) under Neo-Pagan/Wiccan. I don't know this sites policy on posting URLS, but I'm sure you can figure it out. I don't know if the Gospel of Witches goes into any detail about Lucifer or only focuses on Diana and Aradia.

Personally, my feeling of Lucifer are mixed. I am an eclectic Neo-Pagan on a Wiccan base, and I have a very strong interest in Hekate. Hekate herself is only thought of in one dimension by a lot of people, and it takes some doing to "correct" that. I know that Hekate is not just the "evil witch Goddess" the Romans popularised her as. Even with this in mind, I still find it really difficult to come at Lucifer. His Satanic trappings are quite prominent today... I think it will take a few more Luciferish's to do what people do about a lot of misunderstood deities, and that is to hover on message boards and in chat rooms and inform people about him, tell his myths (of which I know none except the one reference in the first chapter of Aradia, in which it says he was cast from Paradise--yes I know this is a pretty dodgy source...), tell of your personal experiences with him, and over time, the Pagan community at least will hopefully come about. Good websites with bibliographies help, too. I don't think you need to "reclaim" him _from_ anyone, time will do that for you, once you get him re-accepted positively into a community like Neo-Paganism.

And.. I think that's all I have to say about that.

Blessings,
Ishna.

[Dark Phoenix]

I don't think we really need to reclaim Lucifer, at this point the Christians and the Satanist's have ruined it for the rest of us. But if you want to go ahead since it won't really hurt our cause maybe it will help I don't know sure but for me it is really a non-issue.

[Ben Gruagach]

You might find the book "Masks of Misrule" by Nigel Jackson to be interesting as it is all about the Horned God in his various guises. It's specifically a look at horned gods (including Lucifer) within witchcraft.

[Luciferish]

Not to claim him, that is funny...

Lets start a religion based on the idea that Jehova is an evil god, bound and determined to destroy the world... Then when Chrisitianity crumbles into dust in another 50 years it will rise up and demonify Jehova. Does this sound familiar? It should.. because its what Christianity did to Rome and its Gods.. Then the rest of the world, save those places that fought back.. Lucifer was just unfortunately mentioned directly in the Bible, I am sure with more research and a longer dark ages more of the Pagan Dieties would have been mentioned in that book.

Perhaps I am speaking to the wrong people about this, since Pagans don't seem to have an ounce of conviction in their bones. I have been a pagan for over 20 years and to hear comments like that makes me physically ill. Not reclaim a defamed god that the Christians have defaced. Ok, lets not reclaim egypt... Lets not reclaim Ireland.. Lets not reclaim Scottland, Japan or any other indiginous culture that Christianity has burried in its wake.

The Fact is that right now, even the CHRISTIANS are taking a step back, at least the scholars.. Eventually they will "revise" the bible again to a more generally acceptable version.. Mark my words Lucifer's name won't be in it.. When the time comes that he is freed from the bondage of Misconception, will he have a home with the Pagans? Or do we discard this God of Insipiration as damaged goods?

[Velvet]

Even if you do reclaim Lucifer, i'm sure there will be people that think of him as "the devil" still.

[Velvet]

I also doubt christians are going to revise their holy book any time soon.

[Luciferish]

Actually they do it about every 20 years.. Its just the KJV is popular with protestants, therefore most widely referred to. There are as many versions of the Bible as there are versions of the religion.

[Velvet]

Actually they do it about every 20 years.. Its just the KJV is popular with protestants, therefore most widely referred to. There are as many versions of the Bible as there are versions of the religion.
There are only minor differences in the different versions, I still doubt that they will revise it to the extent to remove a major entity from it. I've read at least 4 versions of the bible, so I speak from my experience.

[teishabee]

You say that its not worth you time in setting up your own reclaiming of luficier and yet you mock other pagans for taking the same view?

I have interest in Lucifer but have no great need to reclaim him. People think what they need to and if we start shouting at them that lucifier isnt the bad guy they see him as. Then am I not a pardox of those christians who try to save me from the devil?

[Luciferish]

The following versions of the bible were consulted on this issue, the abbreviated name of the version and all mentions of "Lucifer" are annotated:

NIV = NO
NASB = NO
MSG = Yes Rev 2:5
AMP = Yes Isa 14:12
NLT = No
KJV = Yes Isa 14:12
NLV = No
HCSB = No
ESV = No
CEV = No
NKJV = Yes Isa 14:12
KJ21 = Yes Isa 14:12
ASV = No
WE = No
YLT = No
DARBY = Yes Isa 14:12
WYC = No
NIRV = No
NIRVUK = NO

So, is it universal throughout Christianity or just those that hold the KJV and its variants to be the truth?

[Luciferish]

I am not saying that everyone MUST reclaim him, I am saying there there is no tradition that I know of, or even ever heard of other than Strega that have issue with this and want it changed.. The Italian sects of the craft have investment in Diana, Lucifer and Pan. I am not a Strega per se, but I know a few and the next time I hear that my son's name "Lucas" is derived from the Root Lucifer and get an earfull of christian propaganda I am likely to indiscriminatly dispense some enlightenment. The sad thing is I get similar from Pagans on occasion and it chaps my backside.

Also there is a problem with Gothics and Satanists that actually propogate this myth that Lucifer is some dark creature, when in fact its the opposite.. The Christians are actually the least of my concerns, but these Pagan-baby-bat-fluff-bunnies that either embrace Lucifer for the Shock Value or because he's associated with Vampirism somehow are every bit as annoying as any Christian.

Are pagans so narrow that they cannot even reclaim their own dieties? Even fight for them? All I am saying with this whole mess is that its a crying shame.

[Luciferish]

You say that its not worth you time in setting up your own reclaiming of luficier and yet you mock other pagans for taking the same view?

I didn't say its not worth my time, but I am saying it would be impractical.. I started out with "Wouldn't it be nice if we could reclaim this old, misunderstood God, then the emails start.. y'all should hear some of this stuff..

[teishabee]

And yet you yourself promote this satanic image Lucficer. See your avy and your like quote with the real devil.

[Luciferish]

Well I have had the name "Luciferish" or "Somewhat like Lucifer" for a long while.. So in a way I am tied to this idea in alot of personal ways... But the Devil is anything that you are afraid of.. So I am trying to bring fear to the surface and shine a light on it.. The humor and irony is lost on many people but I get a chuckle.

[Shanti]

Are pagans so narrow that they cannot even reclaim their own dieties? Even fight for them? All I am saying with this whole mess is that its a crying shame.
Why do you keep saying pagans are not reclaiming their own deities? There are thousands of deities and pagans have their choice of who they want in their lives. Not all pagans follow your path. I am pagan and follow none of that which you speak. My deities are pre-christian. So why would I want to reclaim your deitiy?

[teishabee]

The humour is slightly lost when it goes against your first point of trying to stop such portails of luficer?

[Ishna]

So, amid your grumbling here, what do you expect us to do about it? We have given your our opinions and our advice, and you keep telling us it's not enough. I echo Teishabee when she points out your own propogating the Satanic image of Lucifer. This to anyone who sees you elsewhere on these forums, this is what they are probably going to do: Lucifer - Devil - Satan - Evil. You've connected them, you're wearing what you're telling others not to. Humour or not, it's like me wearing an animal fur and saying I'm an Animal Rights Activist.

Do you have a website set up with some good information about Lucifer? Do you talk about his myths, talk about his worship? Do you actively seek to promote his pre-Christian form, dispell the myths? Or do you just complain that nobody else does?

Ishna.

[Luciferish]

I am not saying that every pagan should erect a shrine to Lucifer, but we should understand that this one god was singled out by a particular person during a specific retranslation of the bible and unjustly cast into Satan's shadow. We as pagans are living the after effects.. Lucifer was added to the bible to justify persecution of the Old Religion, in all of its forms... This is a rather well known fact. Today the fundamentalists use this often as a tool to cause further damage to all of us, how long will it be before we stand up to that?

I am just trying to express my wish that all of the Old Gods were free from this form of distortion, which in this case was made worse by people within our own religion over time. There are many Goths who claim to be Pagan/Wiccan/etc and use Lucifer as a tool for describing some kind of twisted form of Wicca that condones blood-drinking and other strange fetish behavior... Why? I am trying to educate people rather than just sit back and let them do it.... yet again...

[Luciferish]

So, amid your grumbling here, what do you expect us to do about it? We have given your our opinions and our advice, and you keep telling us it's not enough. I echo Teishabee when she points out your own propogating the Satanic image of Lucifer. This to anyone who sees you elsewhere on these forums, this is what they are probably going to do: Lucifer - Devil - Satan - Evil. You've connected them, you're wearing what you're telling others not to. Humour or not, it's like me wearing an animal fur and saying I'm an Animal Rights Activist.

Do you have a website set up with some good information about Lucifer? Do you talk about his myths, talk about his worship? Do you actively seek to promote his pre-Christian form, dispell the myths? Or do you just complain that nobody else does?

Ishna.

Well since its been less than 24 hours since someone ruffled my feathers over this, I haven't yet.. but I am considering it.. seeing the way this is recieved.

[Shanti]

So you do what you can do, to inform people of your beliefs. Thats what the majority of us do. I dont understand what your trying to accomplish other than some sort of huge revival, which may work if you find enough people who share your veiws.
I dont understand your problem. Many pagans who follow many paths have difficulties, at times, with intolerance. Yelling about it accomplishes little. Educating helps slowly.
We do have more freedom than we did years ago. Times are changing but it doesnt happen over night. Intolerance has been around for a long time and it will continue for a lot longer.
Practise what you want. Educate those who ask. :)

[Luciferish]

The humour is slightly lost when it goes against your first point of trying to stop such portails of luficer?

I would agree with you, except one thing....

I have used this name, images and sigs on other boards for a LONG time, never have I recieved anything like some of the emails/etc.. For one.. Just because I come onto a post and say something doesn't mean I am giving a satanic perspective on something, the formation of the quotes, sigs and images was because I often argue opposition to debates. I like lively discussions, so I get called "The Devil's Advocate" often. So I went with it about... a year or two ago... on another board..

I come here and I get recieved like I am Anton Lavey himself, why? A pagan board that doesn't get the joke? Or unenlightended people? You tell me?

[Ishna]

Just as a side note, there are a few Pagan deities mentioned in the Bible, and of course, all of them in a negative way.

I don't think there is any way we as a community can make them re-write their Bible, unfortunately.

Personally, Luciferish, I think the best way to change the perception of something is to show people the truth. At the end of the day, though, if they don't want to change their beliefs, nothing you say will change it.

Take my boyfriends mum, Jane, for example. She is petrified of rats, probably from seeing lots of horror movies and stuff about them when she was young. To this day she thinks of them as being discusting, malicious little disease-ridden monsters out to get her.

I have two lovely little ratsies who are clean and fuzzy and the most biting they will do to you is a friendly groom accompanied with a couple of little licks. No matter how much I inform her that domestic rats spend most of their time cleaning themselves, are gentle and nice, she refuses to see even a picture of them.

Some people, like my own mother, who has hated rats since, like, forever, has only just come about not that I've informed her of the facts and shown her my rats. She picks them up now and cuddles them. She says she regrets not allowing me to have one in her home. It did take me about four years of informing her, but she did come around in the end.

When Witchcraft, Wicca and really, Paganism in general still suffers a lot of misconception, bringing a deity who carries so much negative association into that fold can seem a bit threatening.

To bring Lucifer back into the light, you've got to be willing to take the consequences of having people react poorly, so your research, and get out there and inform. But it all takes _time_.

A lot of people are understanding Hekate more, but I still encounter many, many Pagans whose guard goes up when you mention Her name. The change is happening, but it's taking it's time.

Ishna.

[Ishna]

Grr, so many posts are... posted... when you're writing a rant! *giggles*

*offers Choccie Bickies?*

By the way, Luciferish, I hope your son wasn't attacked with those rants about Lucifer you mentioned before.

Ishna.

[Ishna]

I come here and I get recieved like I am Anton Lavey himself, why? A pagan board that doesn't get the joke? Or unenlightended people? You tell me?

I think we don't get the joke in the context of the discussion.

Ishna.

[Luciferish]

I agree with that, Ishna.. But its very alarming when I get a half dozen hate mails from a rather small entrance, long before I posted this thread I had been told I should change my name, that I was offending someone.. And this came from a narrow minded person, again I ask you why?

[teishabee]

I would agree with you, except one thing....

I have used this name, images and sigs on other boards for a LONG time, never have I recieved anything like some of the emails/etc.. For one.. Just because I come onto a post and say something doesn't mean I am giving a satanic perspective on something, the formation of the quotes, sigs and images was because I often argue opposition to debates. I like lively discussions, so I get called "The Devil's Advocate" often. So I went with it about... a year or two ago... on another board..

I come here and I get recieved like I am Anton Lavey himself, why? A pagan board that doesn't get the joke? Or unenlightended people? You tell me?
I am sorry you have recieved emails from people on here. But plz remember that this is a large board with many broad faiths and relgions.

I think people are mistaking you for one of the fluff bunnies you so hate. When I first saw your side title and sig. It did seem you might be one of those types. People judge on first glance we cannot help human nature but I hope they now understand they misunderstood you.

[Shanti]

Well your obviously upset by someone. Ask the someone that sent it to you. How would any of us that didnt contact you know why someone else did?

[Ishna]

Because some people are idiots and some people are very set in their beliefs, even if we disagree what they believe (and some people are both!). [edit: okay, that sounds very harsh and it's not supposed to at all. I retract that statement. What I'm trying to say is... some people are misinformed, and some get very protective because Paganism itself is still a very delicate thing, and bringing "well known" evil characters into it can come off as being threatening. And I guess we don't really have a right to tell people what they can and annot believe, and if one person's God is another person's demon, what can we really say about that?]

As I said before, the only thing you can do is be prepared for some bad reactions, and then go for your life and educate.

Remember, the idea of Lucifer being evil has had a lot of time to sink into the "collective" subconsciousness thingy.... um... thing. You know?

Ishna.

[Luciferish]

Since that person wouldn't reply to me, I had to take my issue public.. its sad that this kind of place is that way, I found this board and thought "Wow, alot of different viewpoints and discussion, fun!" and I posted a couple of messages and got a few nice things back from folks in PM then an email arrived.. I am not one to cry to people when someone pulls something like this but I just go off... Its wrong, it shouldn't happen in pagan groups and settings, but when it does and the person won't engage I can ignore or educate... I tried to educate and got alot of "Why Bother" which keys into my Anti-apathy mode..

[Shanti]

Everywhere you go you will find all differant kinds of people. This is a very big board with a large mix of people. It is open to all faiths, even christian. You have to be prepared for a few that may ruffle your feathers...thats part of life.

[Ishna]

There's always some in the barrel, Luciferish. It sucks, but it's life. There will always be *someone* who disagrees with you no matter what your opinion is. :collapse:

Ishy.

[teishabee]

I just hope this hasnt stopped you from wanting to post more.

[Mau]

I think it would be worth it. I remember reading about Goddess Diana, and the things that went on between her and her brother ;)
But I can remember reading it and cringing, having been raised catholic lol. Like 'Lucifer :O ' WTF have I come across here?
But instead of stopping there, I kept going to find what was what, and who was who first .

[Shanti]

Right now there are 147 members on this board and 413 guest. Not everyone is going to like you. Sorry but thats the truth.

[Luciferish]

I realize that Shanti, which to me is kind of odd, I am used to boards with 10 or 20 core posters. Its a bit hard for me to grasp the numbers here still. This is like Virtual Pagan Mecca or something...

[Shanti]

But there are people that match people here too!!! :)

[Shanti]

There is one thing that I think about in the good/evil thing. I dont believe in dualism. To me any deity can be anyway it chooses. Good/evil are just matter of opinion. And some people are very opinionated!! LOL JK. :)

[TYRRHENUS]

Well he was originally a Roman God, Brother to Diana, his story is obscured now by several hundred years of misinformation, much like the Old Religion is today.Just being picky here, this is not true of Roman mythology. This is what Charles Leland wrote, as Ishna skillfully pointed out. Leland probably came to this conclusion because Lucifer "brings the light," while Diana, as Cicero tells us "brings the day."
In my opinion, there may be some "technical" problems reclaiming him as a god in that he never was a god in Roman mythology. He had no aurae, no templa, nor did he share one with any deity.
Pliny the Elder simply uses the name as an astronomical term for the planet Venus rising before the day (the morning star). But this could have been used for the heliacal rising of any star as well. Varro's De Rustica and Virgil's Georgic I describe this. The extent of prayer to Lucifer would (if any) have been an adoratio, an adoration, or kissing of the hand and raising it to the appropriate celestial body.
Other than that he is only mentioned by a few Roman authors who, while translating the Greek classics, needed a latinized name for a deity named Phosphoros. A Hellenic Recon could probably help more with that if you're interested.
So instead of a reclamation, I'd say a creation.
Plus I think it is really uncool if anyone has been giving you a hard time for this.

[Luciferish]

Wow, very very interesting.. To be honest I hadn't begun research on this in that level yet, probably would have figured out some of that along the way but I appreciate what you have there very much. It is possible that the things I have regarding Luciferian concept are post renaissance or possibly Gnostic (Not Thelema), there is alot of ponderances about where it really comes from. Most of the time its just accepted to be the Roman (Leland) counterpart.

However depending on how you look at the lack of information about Lucifer as a whole, his temples, etc there is also the possibility that it was so well destroyed that its just a missing page in history altogether, though that is distant on the scale of reality. I'll start asking around and see where it goes...

[aluokaloo]

I don't recall hearing that Lucifer was a Roman God, and the brother of Diana. Lucifer is a hebrew term, angel of light,I don't know everything however and I can admit to being wrong, and while Lucifer and Satan may or may not be synonimous they are indeed intertwined as I see it. Also how do you figure that you would be condemned for starting a Temple of Lucifer by most of the pagans?

[aluokaloo]

I am not saying that everyone MUST reclaim him, I am saying there there is no tradition that I know of, or even ever heard of other than Strega that have issue with this and want it changed.. The Italian sects of the craft have investment in Diana, Lucifer and Pan. I am not a Strega per se, but I know a few and the next time I hear that my son's name "Lucas" is derived from the Root Lucifer and get an earfull of christian propaganda I am likely to indiscriminatly dispense some enlightenment. The sad thing is I get similar from Pagans on occasion and it chaps my backside.

Also there is a problem with Gothics and Satanists that actually propogate this myth that Lucifer is some dark creature, when in fact its the opposite.. The Christians are actually the least of my concerns, but these Pagan-baby-bat-fluff-bunnies that either embrace Lucifer for the Shock Value or because he's associated with Vampirism somehow are every bit as annoying as any Christian.

Are pagans so narrow that they cannot even reclaim their own dieties? Even fight for them? All I am saying with this whole mess is that its a crying shame.




Not all Pagans are oh so narrow as you would believe, that we would reclaim the Gods. If that were the case, then why is it that there are many worshippers of Loki, Hekate, Kali and Pan? Your being narrow minded to think automatically that all pagans are narrow. Don't generalize please.

[aluokaloo]

This is how I see it, reclaim Lucifer if you feel close to Him.Thats your choice and you know whats in your heart and what works for you. You're going to get mixed opinions everywhere you go, and there are several pagan deities who have been negatively singled out. Lucifer isn't the only one. Why don't you go toe Gods/Goddesses forum and talk about Lucifer, what He is to you, His aspects history, origins, misconceptions etc. How He's important to you and anything else you'd like to add links and other things. The nice thing about MW is that we don't trash other's peoples paths, and definitely not other people's deities.

[Luciferish]

Well, I appreciate your input.. I am no spring chickent and certainly not an eclectic. I was Ranting because someone around here seems to think its fun to send me email about my posts and not openly engage me. This was an attempt to draw the offending person out to post, since the profile they used to send me a message has never posted I surmise its a fake identity.

Lucifer is important to me only because of the references to him in the lore of my tradition, which I am researching again because someone pointed something out that I didn't know. I don't intend to keep this crusade up because it was politely pointed out to me that there are always fools and idiots among the enlightened. On a board of this size I can see that a few bad apples should be expected.

[-Ember]

Just being picky here, this is not true of Roman mythology.

I recall reading something about an Etruscian tie... not Roman, but Romanized Etruscian.

[TYRRHENUS]

Hello -Ember. Welcome aboard.I recall reading something about an Etruscian tie... not Roman, but Romanized Etruscian.You don't recall where you read this from do you?
I have grown to be suspicious of claims of Etruscan ties since we know practically nothing of them. As such, the Etruscans have become an irresistable opportunity for some authors to imbue that civilization with qualities no one knows they ever possessed - equality of the sexes, worship of a "Great Mother Goddess", ecology, you name it.

[-Ember]

I'm afraid I don't recall... one of of those brief mentions in another context things......

[Grey]

*sighs* even if we did "reclaim" lucifer... isnt there enough predjudice of devil worhsop out there? Why add another reason to get yelled at or austrocised?

[Kendrah]

*sighs* even if we did "reclaim" lucifer... isnt there enough predjudice of devil worhsop out there? Why add another reason to get yelled at or austrocised?

So you should change your path to suit other people? You let fear dictact for you instead of grabbing your fate by the horns? If people did that, we wouldn't have anything we have now.

-Kendrah

:hailmol:

[Grey]

I have had many years of study in the Old Religion and I have started to wonder, when shall we reclaim Lucifer? He is the "Bringer of Light" and would herald a new era of Pagan Renaissance once we were able to reclaim him as the God he is, restored to his rightful place and drawn out of the Christian Hell that he has been thrust into unwillingly.

No Kendrah I dont think you should change your beliefs. I also dont see how lucifer, a christian angel commonly known as the devil, has anything to do with pagan beliefs and how he could usher in a religious golden age for us... it makes no sense.
If your a luciferian or a satanist, more power to you, I really dont care. But dont say that its a pagan thing, because lucifer is a christian/jewish/satanist/etc figure.

[teishabee]

No Kendrah I dont think you should change your beliefs. I also dont see how lucifer, a christian angel commonly known as the devil, has anything to do with pagan beliefs and how he could usher in a religious golden age for us... it makes no sense.
If your a luciferian or a satanist, more power to you, I really dont care. But dont say that its a pagan thing, because lucifer is a christian/jewish/satanist/etc figure.This is why where reclaiming him as Pagan.

[Grey]

This is why where reclaiming him as Pagan.
Alright, Im over my initial confusion. You started this thread talking about reclaming lucifer the angel, and are really talking about showing that theres a differrance between him and the Roman god.
Because they are separate entities by the same name, just like to people can have the name jillian robinson. I cant find a single source that shows that the angel lucifer's name was ever anything else than the angel lucifer. If you have any such sources, please send them my way... angels are a special interest of mine.
So if thats the case then your not going to clear his name so to speak? Not to convince people that the archangel is someone else.

[Kendrah]

If you have any such sources, please send them my way... angels are a special interest of mine.

Reference to his Roman side -->
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lucifer_2.html
Aradia -->
http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/aradia/index.htm

The strega's foundation is in Diana and Lucifer, two siblings who made Aradia, the queen of the witches. If I had more time, I'd dig up more links.

Just because the name Lucifer is mentioned in one verse in only a handful of bible versions doesn't mean that is all he is. Christianity is as good as the Celts were at stealing other people's religions and merging them with our own. And, as the saying goes, one man's god is another's devil.

Another interesting link is: http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

-Kendrah

[Pandoras]

Wow. <inhales deeply>

Luciferish -

To come here, to a very interesting and lively Pagan forum (and community), and say that "Pagans don't seem to have an ounce of conviction in their bones" (#19) and call us narrow (#26) is insulting. Pagans are reclaiming their deities everyday. We educate and organize and fight daily to dispel misconceptions. As it is, I think Pagans have done an incredible job in reclaiming the Horned God - an image that Christians closely associate with their Devil. How can you say that Pagans are not engaged simply because we're not engaged in your personal battle? Especially when you haven't even done your research (#54).

Personally, as a Pagan, I am not interested in claiming a Judeo-Christian figure as a pagan god. There is no empirical evidence that proves that he was or that has been able to link him with the Roman Lucifer (the light bringer, the personification of the planet Venus as the morningstar, and son of Aurora).

[Grey]

Just because the name Lucifer is mentioned in one verse in only a handful of bible versions doesn't mean that is all he is. Christianity is as good as the Celts were at stealing other people's religions and merging them with our own. And, as the saying goes, one man's god is another's devil.
-Kendrah
Celts are not a subject that Im very close to and so I really cant respond to that part of your statement one way or the other.
I CAN however respond to the statement about lucifer. While it is true theres little mention of him in the bible there are many accounts of him in other Hebrew texts, the birth religion and mythos structure of christianity. Ill post some URL's as I find them, right now I only have my hardcover evindence on hand.

[-Ember]

Whether or not Lucifer is a god many want to work with, or whether or not he is one that was important to ancient pagans, I think do reclaiming him would be a very important symbolic step. How many websites do you see on neo-paganism crying over how the Christians took the pagan gods and demonized them? Well, the demonized gods bear the name of Lucifer. If nothing else it follows the same logic as reclaiming "witch"... also a name with a lot of negative history, and one pagans may have not used to describe themselves until long after it had been ascribed to them.

Look at the outcry the initial suggestion, fairly mildly worded I think, caused. Apparently the initial author was getting harassing e-mail just for his name, even before the post (inspiring it). We live in fear of being associated with Lucifer. Few can even seriously consider the idea of Lucifer potentially being a legitimate god. Because we don't want anyone to mistake serious paganism with satanism or shock-goths.

I don't know what the actual status of Lucifer was historically. But just by the reaction that I've seen anytime the name is brought up on any board, I'm unimpressed by paganism in general's reaction. Sanitize the craft, prevent any connections to anything dark, and maybe we'll get accepted as legitimate. Gah :blech:. I'd like to see it discussed somewhere just once without anyone throwing around charges of making wicca/the craft/paganism/etc look bad. Usually followed by the assertation that we are all "white witches" and we literally ("harm none") couldn't hurt a fly.

[Luciferish]

Ember has the idea now.. Thats basically where I started with this... Its a Symbolic issue more than a literal one. "Witch" is not the original term used to describe alot of things that its used for now, but we use it none the less.. Even Wicca, an invented word that came later, has been to differ the same kind of fear and forboding that dissassociation with any name mentioned in the bible for the "Devil".

To speak from the point of view of a Pagan implies a level of tolerance and acceptance, but it also implies a level of activism tward reclaiming a religion that many people consider invalid. By portraying ourselves as "Harmles Newage freaks" as I have heard us called, we only detriment our status as "valid". Even those in the craft that have been practicing for a number of years have turned away from the "New" idea and started earnestly seeking the "Old". Even if Lucifer is not actually a God in the classical sense, the christians made him what he is today. He is none the less a symbol of Hope by his mythology, the light before the dawn, the hint of light at the end of the tunnel.

After reading some on the Gnostic references to him, I am even more impressed by his symbol, they portray him as the "Hidden Aspect" of christ, rather than the evil aspect of the universe. Probably why the Gnostics were killed off so early in Christianity's beginning. They were an All-enclusive group that accepted the "Evil" with the "Good" as all being part of God. Another strange aspect of the Gnostic writings is that they seem to Gender twist Lucifer into a female on places.. Since it is the Receptive aspect of Christ by their teacings.. I believe there is alot more to Lucifer than many of us realize, all of it worthy of study... As I assemble material for a possible edcuational site about this being I will be glad to discuss it further, but I don't think I'll reply often to "How dare you" kinds of things. I quit doing that in the 80s during the whole Wicca vs. Witch issue.

[Loopaleigh]

I understand Ember's statement that the demonized pagan gods bear the name of Lucifer. This was a classic tactic...make 'em a demon or make 'em a saint. However they bear the name of Lucifer in Christianity, not in Paganism. In Paganism these gods still go by the names Artemis, Hecate, Zeus, Pan..(insert your pantheon here). And people have worked very hard to reclaim them.
I think one of the confusions here is why would Pagans want to reclaim a Judeo/Christian god/angel?

Reason #1. Is/Was Lucifer a Pagan God?

Even if there is referrence to him in Roman times, the Romans came after the Hebrews and borrowed most everything in their religions/cults from some where else. Greece, Eygpt, the Etruscans, the Middle East. Epona for example was very popular and she was borrowed right from Britian. Wouldn't it stand to reason that they borrowed Lucifer from somewhere else as well? I've never seen any real evidence that Lucifer has ever been anything but a Hebrew angel. Gospel of Aradia is certainly not convincing and neither are Romanized mentions of him as the morning star. So how is it you figure he is Pagan?
Now, I'll admit, I think Lucifer gets a bad rap, and ,yes I do think his role as "bringer of light", i.e. Enlightenment gets dissed by Christians. That's what they call being a Scape Goat. In some twisted sort of way, Jesus didn't die for Christians sins...Lucifer did, after all he is the one who gets all the blame.
But what do I care what Christians do/think about their gods...I'm not Christian.

Reason #2. Do we need to reclaim Lucifer in order to legitimize Paganism?

No. Why would I want to mix in, water down and conform to elements of Christianity in order to make my beliefs as a Pagan legitimate? Isn't this how we got stuck with Christianity to begin with? Modern Paganism is still in it's infancy, only time and hard work will make it legitimate.
Now as far as living "in fear" of being associated with Satan...no, I don't live in fear, but that doesn't mean I like the idea. Why? Because I don't see Satan or Lucifer as being Pagan, I see them as being Judeo/Christian and I'm not interesed in reclaiming a Judeo/Christian god. It would be like saying I want to reclaim Jesus as a harvest god, or I want to reclaim Mary as a displaced goddess. Yes the connections are there (I've read enough mythology to see it), but they are still Christian.

Reason #3. Reclaiming Lucifer in order to make Paganism balanced.

I also don't feel that not wanting to reclaim Lucifer means "sanitizing" Paganism or stripping it of it's dark side. I have been a Pagan for over 15 years and I work with some very dark deities. Hecate and Kali both can be a real bitches. I consider all gods to have a "light" side and a "dark" side, both within the same deity. It is one of the things that makes Paganism different from Christianity. Christians see things in black and white, good God....evil Devil. Pagans see their gods as shades of grey. Each containing elements of the other.
As far as the whole...um...."white witch" thing....I find this just as extreme as thinking that Paganism must be full of darkness and woe in order to be "real". Paganism, like what it is modeled after (Nature) is BOTH. The goal is Balance. There are plenty of other Pagan gods out there that offer balance besides the Christian Lucifer.

What you are talking about Luciferish, (and I hope I am understanding you correctly here, please let me know if I am not) is something more akin to Wicca in Gardner and Crowley's day when it was much more heavily influenced by Western Occultism in general?
Since Paganism has become the umbrella term that encompasses many different branches, alot of people who aren't interested in Qabbalah and Hermeticism, ect., may also not feel to much of a connection with Lucifer either. Why? Because they don't feel a connection with Christianity or Judeaica.
I realize your initial frustration was with, shall we say, less than adult behavior, but what you are proposing here doesn't just not sit well with people who lead with their emotions, it also does not sit to well with people who can voice their opinions in a mature fashion.

Reclaim Lucifer all you want. Call yourself a Pagan if you want. Paganism is structured to allow for it....something else that sets it apart from the religion you want to reclaim him from.

But don't be surprised or offened if it meets with a less than "hell yeah" from the general Pagan community. After all we are Pagans, why would we want a Christian god?

[Luciferish]

Loopaleigh:

You are quite astute in your observations there.. I agree with most of what you say and I'll take most of that to heart.

My Current issue now isn't whether to reclaim him or not, he already has a place in many traditions of the Craft, however I am now very curious how he got there. One of the previous posters posed some very good questions that I am still trying to answer for myself. Two or three days of pouring over Gnostic texts and Biblical discussion references has made me reevaluate alot of things. Which in this religion is normal and quite useful.. Normal Growth processes even after a couple of decades are alot of fun to me now, so I am just happily researching away and learning lots..;)

Thats what a good forum is for right? Food for thought? :)

[aluokaloo]

Then I still have no idea what your griping about.

[Loopaleigh]

I was looking at Amazon.com to see if I could find anything on the Trickster Archetype in general, and found this instead: "The Dark Archetype" by Denise Dumars. It has some entries on Lucifer, although I haven't read it so I can't vouch for the content.
What do you think of Pagan and Nat'v American Trickster Archetypes like Loki, Maui, Hermes, Coyote Old Man, Prometheus, etc.? This is more or less the Archetype Lucifer fits into.

[Luciferish]

I was looking at Amazon.com to see if I could find anything on the Trickster Archetype in general, and found this instead: "The Dark Archetype" by Denise Dumars. It has some entries on Lucifer, although I haven't read it so I can't vouch for the content.
What do you think of Pagan and Nat'v American Trickster Archetypes like Loki, Maui, Hermes, Coyote Old Man, Prometheus, etc.? This is more or less the Archetype Lucifer fits into.

Well he is compared in some ways to Prometheus but a more divine form, at least from what I have been reading. In some of the references its like the "Precursor of Light". You define a light by the shadows cast within it... hard to wrap the brain around.. Prometheus in some ways is that precursor and activator of that light in his symbolic form, so I can a see relationship, though I have no evidence yet that it was related then. I suspect any references to a relationship to trickster gods of that panteon would be more related to Pan or something similar. However Loki in some respects as an "Instigator" is ap to be a good candidate for a likeness.. Coyote of Native trad also would be in the same respect.

But good food for thought...

As to the "What are you griping about" comment from an earlier post. Simply there is a difference between getting on the soap box and crying, subtle though it may be, there is a difference.