Downright Disbelief

[Merrie]

I went to the mall last friday with a group of friends and we stopped in at the bookstore. My two female friends and I gravitated immediately to the New Age/Occult section(One wiccan, one eclectic pagan and one seeker among us :) ) One of the guys stopped short and looked at the books. He decided, loudly, that those books were for "fat people on the internet who think they can DO things" My friends and I looked at each other and lauged, while he wondered what was so funny...

I know there are a lot of misconceptions out there about who we are and what we do, but have any of you run into situations like this where people just dont Believe you? I'm interested to see if it's just this guy...

[Danustouch]

Do you mean people who JUST don't believe that magick exists?
I've experienced it.....but..ya know what..it has ceased to bother me. For those who don't believe it exists..it never will. For those who don't believe in miracles..they will not experience them...imo. So...it's just a sad, sad person, IMO...who rules out the existence of forces higher than the everyday gloom of our society. If anything...I think we should merely pray for those people...that one day...they will experience something inexplicably beautiful. So that they can taste fully, the wonder of the universe. But..that's just my opinion. Maybe belief in the mystical is merely a crutch...ah well...i only know what works for me :) And what works for me, is anything that gives me eyes to see beauty....in the most unexpected of places :)

[Sequoia]

my boyfriend works with magick, he's a healer, yet he still has trouble believeing that magick and higher powers and such are truely real. . . it's kind of sad, he's had a lot of things happen in his life where he had a great deal of faith and then it was all destroyed, so now it's hard for him to belive in anything.

[Wiccan Maeve]

Talk about ignorance, and gosh, the nerve of some people. I'll never understand it. If that had happened to me I don't know what I would have done.

Love & light,
HoneyDreads

[Earth Walker]

Hocus - Pocus! ;) :rolleyes:

[quixote]

sounds kind of like my one sister. If something is not main-stream she doesn't buy it.if she could let herself, she could be a very powerful healer- or whatever she wanted to be. I only wish she could get herself free of the baggage she is under.

[Old Nick]

Personally i dont believe in magik (or anything similar). What's truly believing in something like? Is it comforting?

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Do you mean people who JUST don't believe that magick exists?
I've experienced it.....but..ya know what..it has ceased to bother me. For those who don't believe it exists..it never will. For those who don't believe in miracles..they will not experience them...imo. So...it's just a sad, sad person, IMO...who rules out the existence of forces higher than the everyday gloom of our society. If anything...I think we should merely pray for those people...


You have NO IDEA how annoying your last 9 words are to those of us who adhere to that particular point of view.

It's EXACTLY what Fundies say about YOU. You can identify with that, can't you? Pray for yourself!! If I wan't your prayers, I'll ask for them thank you very much!

- Ill

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Old Nick
Personally i dont believe in magik (or anything similar). What's truly believing in something like? Is it comforting?

Sir, I think we shall be friends. Do we see eye-to-eye on other matters discussed here at MW?

Eh, I take that back, I didn't know you were SOP. Jeez, go away you idiot.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Illuminatus



You have NO IDEA how annoying your last 9 words are to those of us who adhere to that particular point of view.

It's EXACTLY what Fundies say about YOU. You can identify with that, can't you? Pray for yourself!! If I wan't your prayers, I'll ask for them thank you very much!

- Ill

It is very doubtful that she meant to pray in the manner or to the god which you seem to suggest that she is saying we should pray. In my opinion, it is the sign of a closed mind to make such a suggestion. There are also many Christians on this board who may find the statement offensive. While I don't agree with the teachings of Christianity, I also do not wish to make little of another person's belief or even choice of words. I know that the essence of a prayer transcends many faiths and beliefs.

Blue

[Wyrdsister]

Merrie, that's hilarious! I think my response would have been the same as you and your friends. :D Was he talking to anyone in particular or just musing aloud? If the latter, the boy should really get friends. ;)

Wyrdsister

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by bluecat


It is very doubtful that she meant to pray in the manner or to the god which you seem to suggest that she is saying we should pray. In my opinion, it is the sign of a closed mind to make such a suggestion.

In my opinion, you are wrong.


There are also many Christians on this board who may find the statement offensive. While I don't agree with the teachings of Christianity, I also do not wish to make little of another person's belief or even choice of words. I know that the essence of a prayer transcends many faiths and beliefs.

Blue

Worship is worship is worship, it's all the same from where I'm sitting. The manner and direction of the prayer is not an issue. I don't care if you're praying to Buddah or Yaweh or Jesus or Yippie-Kayoo and Trolly Bazoo, it's rude for someone to come up to you and say "There's something wrong with you. I'm going to pray for you."

- Illuminatus

[Amora]

A friend of mine had a funny situation happen in a bookstore as well. She heard a guy ask the clerk if they had any good books on meditation and the clerk lead him to the new age section but did not know of any good books so my friend tried to help him out. The religious section is right behind the new age section and some lady overheard this discussion. She chased my friend right out of the store and to her car telling her she was going to hell and she would pray for her.

[Myst]

Once I was in the bookstore looking at the New Age and Witchcraft sections and a few teens kept walking back and forth behind me every few minutes telling eachother how "that stuff's a bunch of B.S." etc. etc. Then my boyfriend rejoined me and strangely they all disappeared suddenly... 8O

[Danustouch]

Illuminatus...i most certainly meant no disrespect, whatsoever. What I meant was simply this...That instead of getting angry at the people who think differently than us..and who down our beliefs...we should simply wish them well. Wish them Happiness, and wish that they find it within whatever path (or lack there of)..that they follow. I didn't mean "pray for them to come to the same knowledge that we have".

It has been my experience, that those who ridicule others' belief systems have some insecurities, or unanswered questions about their own. Those who are SECURE in their beliefs/paths, don't need to ridicule those of others.

In my interpretation, this mans avowal of disbelief in Magick, actually ridiculed the belief in Magick for those that DO. It's as if he/she was saying..."Magick is a crock of S***, and anyone who believes it's not..is an idiot". In this case, there is nothing wrong with offering a prayer that the person may find the answers that they are searching for, as well as a healthy dose of tolerance towards OTHERS beliefs.

As I said..I certainly meant NO offense, whatsoever from it. I know what you mean, about people offering to "pray for our souls"...I've experienced THAT too. It is discomfiting, yes. But that is not what I meant. It is not the context I meant it in.

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Illuminatus


In my opinion, you are wrong.



Worship is worship is worship, it's all the same from where I'm sitting. The manner and direction of the prayer is not an issue. I don't care if you're praying to Buddah or Yaweh or Jesus or Yippie-Kayoo and Trolly Bazoo, it's rude for someone to come up to you and say "There's something wrong with you. I'm going to pray for you."

- Illuminatus

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I believe that to be a person's right, so long as they don't state their opinion as fact (not saying you did).

I do disagree with your final statement though because you misquoted the person, she did NOT say there was something wrong with you, she simply stated that she would pray for the person, that's all.

Blue
:cool:

[Branwen]

Hey Illuminous!
Why are you so angry? No one hurt you here.

[Myst]

Yo, folks, we have a topic here.

:)

[Acie]

I have ran across many who don't believe and amongst those a few who could not accept that I do. In fact a few who were willing to go "to war" with me for not accepting their path as the only path. I can only say that I would rather live one day as myself than an eternity as someone else. To look at me one would not think for one moment that I was Pagan. Never assume to know what lies within another.

[bluecat]

Well, the guy was partially right, there are fat pagans, skinny pagans, pretty pagans, ugly pagans, tall pagans, short pagans, not to mention all of the different colors of pagans. I live in a town that is very Christian, but slowly opening up to new ideas (very slowly, but better than nothing :) ). I was distressed at the guy's comment because I felt it to be very judgemental and shortsighted.

Well, maybe he'll understand someday all we can do is keep trying to teach folks. Some folks you can't rush.

My pennies.

Blue :cool:

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Danustouch
As I said..I certainly meant NO offense, whatsoever from it. I know what you mean, about people offering to "pray for our souls"...I've experienced THAT too. It is discomfiting, yes. But that is not what I meant. It is not the context I meant it in.

The christians praying for your soul would employ the same defense. They don't mean it in the context of making you uncomfortable (or maybe some do? depends on the individual)... but IT DOES. Thus the bottom line is the same. The intentions may vary, but the end result is the same.

I do not mean to offend either. But your position in this is really no different from the Baptist's who says she will pray for the gothic looking girl bagging her groceries. Whereas she is praying so the girl may find the one true path of Jesus, you are praying that I find my own true path in the context of magick. You may think that these scenarios are totally different, but they are not. Each situation is equally arrogant, and equally ridiculous from where I am standing.

Maybe disbelief and nihilism ARE my path. Tread lightly, lest you inadvertently bash it.

- Illuminatus

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by bluecat

I do disagree with your final statement though because you misquoted the person, she did NOT say there was something wrong with you, she simply stated that she would pray for the person, that's all.

Blue
:cool:

Well what other reason would there be to pray? The purpose is to invoke change, and in this case a posative change. This implies a negative condition that needs to be changed, ie "something is wrong with you".

[bluecat]

Originally posted by Illuminatus


The christians praying for your soul would employ the same defense. They don't mean it in the context of making you uncomfortable (or maybe some do? depends on the individual)... but IT DOES. Thus the bottom line is the same. The intentions may vary, but the end result is the same.

I do not mean to offend either. But your position in this is really no different from the Baptist's who says she will pray for the gothic looking girl bagging her groceries. Whereas she is praying so the girl may find the one true path of Jesus, you are praying that I find my own true path in the context of magick. You may think that these scenarios are totally different, but they are not. Each situation is equally arrogant, and equally ridiculous from where I am standing.

Maybe disbelief and nihilism ARE my path. Tread lightly, lest you inadvertently bash it.

- Illuminatus

You leave people with very little leeway with your tread lightly statement. To me that is very intolerant and you seem to find no problem in putting other people down for what they believe and how they act, so long as they don't step on YOUR toes. Where are you going with this?

[Semele]

Originally posted by bluecat


You leave people with very little leeway with your tread lightly statement. To me that is very intolerant and you seem to find no problem in putting other people down for what they believe and how they act, so long as they don't step on YOUR toes. Where are you going with this?

Well, isn't it obvious he's going directly to hell without passing Go!!! We should pray for him Blue!!!:devil: :bug:

Kidding!! I'm not gonna pray for him!! Even if I did I wouldn't tell him. Which actually brings me to my point, (yes I had one!!)

If we feel the need to pray for others to find security and happiness, that is not IMO, a bad thing. It is niether derogatory or taking a holier than thou attitude, so long as we are sincere. I have prayed and sent healing energy to many folks who I thought could benefit from it. Not because I felt I was better than them in any way. Perhaps I just saw them struggling with something and thought I could offer a little support. I never tell someone I am going to pray for them, unless I know they would welcome it for what it was intended to be rather than a judgement or condescending attitude.

[Danustouch]

Thank you Semele, you phrased it better than I ever could. I would not be praying that they start believing in Magick (though in my personal belief, a world without magick would be a sad place)..but that the person would find answers to their questions. This is where that little part about insecurity comes from. As I said...only people who are insecure in their OWN beliefs, feel the need to bash others. So I would be praying that they would find the answers that they were looking for, as well as a sense of "peace".

[sherry]

I agree Semele whole heartedly!!!!!

I think in our line of work the energies we send in our own personal form of "prayer" are very important and help others in a good way. But outside of work I have often done the same mostly for guidance for the person.

[Illuminatus]

Whatever! It's not important. I'm displacing other frustrations on you people, and it's not your fault.

All I was doing was defending the disbelievers described in the original thread.

Among circles of neo-pagans and other new age types (in real life not imaginary internet-land), I have too often been ridiculed for NOT believing in magik. To extremes. I sit and listen to guys and girls talk on and on about their energy, faeries, spirits, astral projection, whatever, till the cows come home. And this is what bugs me:

A lot of neo-pagans will sit there, smile, and nod politely .. when a fellow seeker sits there and tells them something they think is completely off the wall. Say, like vampyre faeries flying around in UFO's. Pagan A is making up some whimsical tale how they were abducted by bloodsucking pixies in cigar-shaped UFO's. Now.. Pagan B, he thinks this is a load of compete crap. But he doesn't SAY it! Like, you all humor each other, when your views are so fracticious as a community, wheter you believe the other person or not, you smile and nod, and the poor guy who speaks up and says "that's a load of crap", well HE'S suddenly the bad guy, when everyone in the room was thinking the exact same thing. It's like you're all pretending to give each other the benefit of the doubt. And I want to know what is UP with that????

- Illuminatus

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by bluecat


You leave people with very little leeway with your tread lightly statement. To me that is very intolerant and you seem to find no problem in putting other people down for what they believe and how they act, so long as they don't step on YOUR toes. Where are you going with this?

I am given very little leeway in return, from some at least.

I was forbidden to start a discussion on "Fate" in another thread, because fate is inherent in the Paths of some MW users, and to discuss it (or bring up a thread refuting it) would be "bashing". If you are all going to use the "bashing" defense, I don't see why I shouldn't either. That whole rule is being abused, and for one time it's not by me.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
A lot of neo-pagans will sit there, smile, and nod politely .. when a fellow seeker sits there and tells them something they think is completely off the wall. Say, like vampyre faeries flying around in UFO's. Pagan A is making up some whimsical tale how they were abducted by bloodsucking pixies in cigar-shaped UFO's. Now.. Pagan B, he thinks this is a load of compete crap. But he doesn't SAY it! Like, you all humor each other, when your views are so fracticious as a community, wheter you believe the other person or not, you smile and nod, and the poor guy who speaks up and says "that's a load of crap", well HE'S suddenly the bad guy, when everyone in the room was thinking the exact same thing. It's like you're all pretending to give each other the benefit of the doubt. And I want to know what is UP with that????


I like to think of it as tolerance. It's easy to sit there and spout how you (not you specifically, in general) tolerate other people's beliefs and an entirely different thing to sit there and listen to the beliefs and think "wow that's insane" but still have enough respect to not suggest the person is stupid. To be fair, if someone said to me they were abducted by bloodsucking pixies I'll listen and then probably have a problem believing anything else the person says. Even so, I wouldn't say "well that's a crock of crap". I might say "really, I never heard of that before" or "are you sure you weren't dreaming" but tolerance for other people's beliefs means not belittling people for having them.

Although, to be fair, some people do take things too seriously, including myself at times. No one likes to feel stupid I suppose, and there's an inherent human tendency to feel that way when someone disagrees with you. What can you do though, just let them think they know what they're doing? Try to lightly explain your beliefs and watch as they throw their hands in the air and say "you personally attacked me" without listening to what you say anyway? Perhaps you just have to choose your arguments carefully and let the little things go. The bloodsucking pixie story may not be true, but how much harm is there in someone telling one outrageous story?

Obviously I have no answers, but I know precisely how you feel. :eyebrow:

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
I like to think of it as tolerance. It's easy to sit there and spout how you (not you specifically, in general) tolerate other people's beliefs and an entirely different thing to sit there and listen to the beliefs and think "wow that's insane" but still have enough respect to not suggest the person is stupid. To be fair, if someone said to me they were abducted by bloodsucking pixies I'll listen and then probably have a problem believing anything else the person says. Even so, I wouldn't say "well that's a crock of crap". I might say "really, I never heard of that before" or "are you sure you weren't dreaming" but tolerance for other people's beliefs means not belittling people for having them.

eh I can see that I guess.

[QUOTE]
Although, to be fair, some people do take things too seriously, including myself at times. No one likes to feel stupid I suppose, and there's an inherent human tendency to feel that way when someone disagrees with you. What can you do though, just let them think they know what they're doing? Try to lightly explain your beliefs and watch as they throw their hands in the air and say "you personally attacked me" without listening to what you say anyway? Perhaps you just have to choose your arguments carefully and let the little things go. The bloodsucking pixie story may not be true, but how much harm is there in someone telling one outrageous story?

Obviously I have no answers, but I know precisely how you feel. :eyebrow:

heh, well whenever I complain to the mods about a personal attack they always think I'm joking. And of course I am, which is the true irony!

Seriously though, my self-proclaimed views on absolute speech pretty much preclude me from complaining about what anyone SAYS, and I'm fine with that, I'm just miffed that people always complain about what *I* say. And not to me, oh no, they go right to mommy or daddy moderator first.

Still, I think it's really odd that a bunch of pagans will sit around in a circle and talk about all the Bull$^%@ they had to put up with being raised christians and just Sh@%# all over that path... then sit there and smile contentedly as one of them conveys a viewpoint or story that is about 5,000 times less credible or believable than the lord Jesus Son of God coming back from the dead and saving mankind. I mean, I have a basic threshold on my bull%@#@# detector, and when anyone passes it, I challenge them. Of course, I have selectively disabled it during my sojourn here at MW, but still.. you get the idea.

- Illuminatus!

[Tigerwallah]

Since Magik is not part of the main three (Christian, Jewish, or Muslem) the majority of people do not understand it. Society has portrayed witches on television and in the movies as being like good or evil genies who can do anything they wish. We all know that magik is far closer to prayer than it is to wiggling our noses and getting what we want. Unfortunately, most folks just don't understand that.

People will always make fun of what they don't understand. It feels comfortable to do that.

I have to agree with Illuminatus about anyone praying for my soul, though. I'm downright insulted when someone feels that I have made the wrong choices for me, and feels they need to rectify it for my own good.

[Lucidia]

hey, i astrally project, and have had lots of battles, and i've done what could be amazing things...

and sometimes i wonder if i just have a VERY vivid imagination.

faith is the key to all things in time.

[story]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah

I have to agree with Illuminatus about anyone praying for my soul, though. I'm downright insulted when someone feels that I have made the wrong choices for me, and feels they need to rectify it for my own good.
Personally i never got offended at someone saying they will pray for me. But then again, i guess its most likely becuase i never had someone pray for me to change my views. Usually its just a kind of "lord, be nice to him---he's ok" kinda thing.
Frankly, i can use all the help i can get. :T

[story]

ps: any prayers for the health of my car would be appreciated

pps: sorry for being ot

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
Since Magik is not part of the main three (Christian, Jewish, or Muslem) the majority of people do not understand it. Society has portrayed witches on television and in the movies as being like good or evil genies who can do anything they wish. We all know that magik is far closer to prayer than it is to wiggling our noses and getting what we want. Unfortunately, most folks just don't understand that.

Actually, that might be the topic of another thread altogether.

Majik in other religions.

I know Judiaism has Kabbalism, which is really more heavy philosophy and different ways of thinking rather than Majik.. but what about the catholics? Jesuits who perform exorcisms, is that maybe a bit majikal? And what about the link between the muslim faith and sorcery?

- Illuminatus!

[Incendia]

Personally, I believe in magik...but I once had someone tell me that "magik is for people who have no control in their lives".
:rolleyes: :bug: :rolleyes:



:boing: Amicus

[Myst]

Funny. I consider magick to be controlling energy to a desired end. Lovely avatar btw there amicus :)

[Incendia]

"Funny. I consider magick to be controlling energy to a desired end" -Willow Raven

I agree with you Willow Raven! However, I think that this person was implying that some people feel as though that they can't control "the real world"... and subsequently resort to creating their own make-believe reality which includes the use of magik as a means of gaining control. Basically, this person was telling me that people who believe in magik are losers and outcasts who can't fit into regular society. :mad:

BTW- Glad that you like my new avatar :sunny:

[Myst]

Yeah that's what I meant. I kinda thought that's what he meant and was stating that that's kind of funny because I believe the exact opposite :)

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by amicus
[BBasically, this person was telling me that people who believe in magik are losers and outcasts who can't fit into regular society. :mad:

[/B]

I've seen the face of regular society. I preffer the company of my cat. :shift: