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View Full Version : Mixing, Dabbleing, whatever you call it.....



MorningDove030202
September 30th, 2004, 12:02 PM
Ok, I know that mixing pantheons and paths is a controverisal topic but I would like some clarification on the issue.

If I'm Wiccan and I'm interested in Hellenic Reconstructionism and I practice both, but not at the same time, is that mixing? I mean I can keep my Wiccan rituals Wiccan, and also do Helllenic Recon ceremonies....right? Technicaly I'm not mixing the two, I'm practicing them seperatly. What would you call that? Is that "ok"?

Dove

Aelfoak
September 30th, 2004, 12:09 PM
Dove, if practising both beliefs make you happy and improves you spiritually then there's nothing wrong with it, you carry on.

misty
September 30th, 2004, 12:14 PM
Dove, if practising both beliefs make you happy and improves you spiritually then there's nothing wrong with it, you carry on.

Well said :)

Athena-Nadine
September 30th, 2004, 12:20 PM
Ok, I know that mixing pantheons and paths is a controverisal topic but I would like some clarification on the issue.

If I'm Wiccan and I'm interested in Hellenic Reconstructionism and I practice both, but not at the same time, is that mixing? I mean I can keep my Wiccan rituals Wiccan, and also do Helllenic Recon ceremonies....right? Technicaly I'm not mixing the two, I'm practicing them seperatly. What would you call that? Is that "ok"?

DoveWell, this Hellenic Recon doesn't see anything wrong with it, though I don't do it. ;)

Ben Trismegistus
September 30th, 2004, 12:29 PM
If I'm Wiccan and I'm interested in Hellenic Reconstructionism and I practice both, but not at the same time, is that mixing? I mean I can keep my Wiccan rituals Wiccan, and also do Helllenic Recon ceremonies....right? Technicaly I'm not mixing the two, I'm practicing them seperatly. What would you call that? Is that "ok"?
It makes you a Wiccan with an interest in Hellenic Reconstructionism. :)

MorningDove030202
September 30th, 2004, 01:02 PM
It makes you a Wiccan with an interest in Hellenic Reconstructionism. :)

But if I was practicing both without mixing them, couldn't I equaly call my self a Hellenic with an equal interest in Wicca?

Dove

Ben Trismegistus
September 30th, 2004, 01:09 PM
But if I was practicing both without mixing them, couldn't I equaly call my self a Hellenic with an equal interest in Wicca?
You can say that too. I'm just going by what you said in your original post.

If you practice both equally, you can be a Wiccan AND a Hellenic Reconstructionist. Since Wicca doesn't have a specifically codified theology, there's no perceived discrepency between the two.

MorningDove030202
September 30th, 2004, 01:22 PM
So then you can practice both speratly with out the looked down upon practice of mixing the two together... Hummm....

It's like the line from Helboy...

"Are you Catholic?"
"Yes....among other things."


LOL

Dove

Athena-Nadine
September 30th, 2004, 03:33 PM
You can say that too. I'm just going by what you said in your original post.

If you practice both equally, you can be a Wiccan AND a Hellenic Reconstructionist. Since Wicca doesn't have a specifically codified theology, there's no perceived discrepency between the two.
*...nods...* Now I'm going to play Devil's Advocate, because this is what you can expect from the Recon community at large, as Recons consider themselves completely separate from Wiccans and other Neopagans:

Being a Reconstructionist is a lot more than practicing rituals, though. In many cases, the theology and beliefs are very different from that of Wicca (at least the common core theology of Wicca). The easiest that comes to mind would be that there is no guideline to "harm none" in any of the Reconstructionist religions I know of (yes, I know the Rede is not really about harming none and is not even necessary to be Wiccan). Also, while syncretism can be and is a part of Reconstructionist religions, eclecticism is not.

Though there is nothing wrong with practicing some aspects of Hellenismos and some elements of Wicca (which is Hellenic Wicca), unless you're following all of the festivals, rituals, theology and beliefs of Hellenismos, and not also following the beliefs of another religion, you're not really a Reconstructionist. In order to be considered a Reconstructionist, you would have to follow the complete religion to the exclusion of Wicca. A person who holds the beliefs of a Reconstructionist religion but does not follow the holidays, rituals, and practices is not a Recon. So the only way to be a Wiccan and a Hellenic Reconstructionist would be to not only keep the rituals and holidays completely separate from one another, but the core beliefs of both as well.

But, yes, you could easily call yourself a Hellenic Wiccan or a Wiccan with an interest in Hellenismos. :)

Ben Trismegistus
September 30th, 2004, 03:37 PM
Though there is nothing wrong with practicing some aspects of Hellenismos and some elements of Wicca (which is Hellenic Wicca), unless you're following all of the festivals, rituals, theology and beliefs of Hellenismos, and not also following the beliefs of another religion, you're not really a Reconstructionist. In order to be considered a Reconstructionist, you would have to follow the complete religion to the exclusion of Wicca. A person who holds the beliefs of a Reconstructionist religion but does not follow the holidays, rituals, and practices is not a Recon. So the only way to be a Wiccan and a Hellenic Reconstructionist would be to not only keep the rituals and holidays completely separate from one another, but the core beliefs of both as well.
That's a good point. Hellenic Reconstructionism is, I suppose, more codified than Wicca, and therefore there's a much clearer list of what you can and cannot get away with and still be a Hellenic Reconstructionist.

Rhianna813
September 30th, 2004, 03:37 PM
Yeah I definitely agree if you both paths are aiding in your growth and happiness - there is not problem :-) But I truely thought that Reconstructionist ( Celtic, Hellenic, etc...) was just that, reconstructing. I thought that those who get into a Recon can be from any faith or no faith at all. They are more interested in the accurate history (not the made up history) of that culture and honoring it.

Rhianna

Ben Trismegistus
September 30th, 2004, 03:39 PM
Yeah I definitely agree if you both paths are aiding in your growth and happiness - there is not problem :-) But I truely thought that Reconstructionist ( Celtic, Hellenic, etc...) was just that, reconstructing. I thought that those who get into a Recon can be from any faith or no faith at all. They are more interested in the accurate history (not the made up history) of that culture and honoring it.
Well, it's not like being a Civil War Reconstructionist. One assumes, if you're a religious reconstructionist, that you actually adhere to those beliefs.

Athena-Nadine
September 30th, 2004, 03:56 PM
That's a good point. Hellenic Reconstructionism is, I suppose, more codified than Wicca, and therefore there's a much clearer list of what you can and cannot get away with and still be a Hellenic Reconstructionist.
Though Hellenismos is a religion of orthopraxy, not orthodoxy, so it could be said that technically, it makes absolutely no difference what you believe. What makes a Hellenic Reconstructionist a Reconstructionist is following all of the rituals, holidays, and practices, without picking and choosing which ones you feel like following. However, following the religious practices of another religion is considered impious, and since proper piety is the core of Hellenismos, it goes against the religion.


Hellenismos holds as its core the value or virtue of Eusebia or piety. Eusebia is the giving the Gods and other Divine Beings their due and proper respect, most importantly by the performance of the traditional rites, rituals and festivals. It is the performance of these rites and rituals that is the essence of piety in Hellenismos. Hellenismos is a religion centered on Orthopraxy (from. Gk. Orthos=Right + Praxis=Practice), rather than Orthodoxy (Orthos + Doxa=Opinion/belief) like most modern religions. Belief in the existence of the Gods, or of their form as presented in the myths is not, per se, required for Eusebia. What mattered in law and general public opinion was participation in at least some form of traditional rites and festivals/holidays. Even religious leaders who opposed traditional sacrifices propsed the exclusive use of bloodless sacrifice were proposing one traditional form of the rites, and one they claimed was the oldest and purest form. Popular backlash against non-traditional thinkers such as atheists, Christians and Sokrates focused on those who either rejected traditional rites entirely or who were thought to be institiuting new and strange Gods and rites to the detriment of the traditional ones.

However, in order to do so and have it mean anything, you would have to know the history behind them, and follow the beliefs and culture as well. Because while the focus of Hellenismos is on practice, practice without belief-whether it be cultural or theological-- is pretty meaningless.

DebLipp
September 30th, 2004, 04:01 PM
There is nothing wrong with it. In the original faiths that various Recons are Reconstructing, it was normal to absorb the worship of deities from other cultures. If a bunch of ancient Greeks had somehow visited with some Wiccans, they'd go home and add Wicca to their worship (if they wanted to).

Now, what you consider yourself is up to you. I'd say that you can practice as many different things as you want (in separate rituals) but your core beliefs probably don't mesh equally well with the core beliefs of the various religions you practice. I would choose to identify myself as the religion that most closely matches my core beliefs. Hence I am careful to identify myself as Wiccan, not Hindu, even though I usually worship Hindu gods, because I am a Wiccan, of (more or less) Wiccan belief and lifestyle. Your self-identification is up to you.

Now, if you worshiped a "jealous" god or goddess who didn't WANT you worshiping other gods in other rituals, that would be different, but the religions themselves don't demand it.

Seren_
September 30th, 2004, 04:09 PM
Ok, I know that mixing pantheons and paths is a controverisal topic but I would like some clarification on the issue.

If I'm Wiccan and I'm interested in Hellenic Reconstructionism and I practice both, but not at the same time, is that mixing? I mean I can keep my Wiccan rituals Wiccan, and also do Helllenic Recon ceremonies....right? Technicaly I'm not mixing the two, I'm practicing them seperatly. What would you call that? Is that "ok"?

Dove

If it works for you, then go with it. But personally, if I were attracted to two such widely differing faiths such as these I would ask myself...if my main? original? preferred? (not sure on the right word) faith were the right one for me, why do I feel the need to participate in another(EDA, I assume you are referring to participating in different types of rituals...)? What does one have that the other doesn't? And why do I feel the need to "branch out"?

MorningDove030202
September 30th, 2004, 07:19 PM
Well for one I'm not realy eclectic anymore, all the gods I specificaly name in worship if it's just me are Greek Gods. (If I'm with others, I'm totaly comfortable with adding others Gods to the ritual, it doesn't bother me one bit.)

Two, I've never experienced a Hellenic ritual, but I would like to. I'd have to try it to see if it was my thing. I suspect I would learn alot about the Greek Gods I include in my Wiccan worship from experiencing Hellenic Worship.

I do have some reservations about worshiping some of the greek gods, like Ares the God of War for example..... So if I don't "get over" that I might not be able to claim both Hellenic and Wicca. I understand that.

Beliefs.....I'm not sure how Hellenic Recon beliefs are different that Wicca.... I know I'm a soft polytheist, and that's unusual for a Recon, but is it totaly unacceptable?

Dove

Seren_
October 1st, 2004, 11:52 AM
Beliefs.....I'm not sure how Hellenic Recon beliefs are different that Wicca.... I know I'm a soft polytheist, and that's unusual for a Recon, but is it totaly unacceptable?

Dove

Well I'm not a Greek recon, and I know there are some here that will be able to help, but in the mean time you might find this helpful. Lots of info:

The Cauldron (http://www.ecauldron.com/recongreek.php)

Athena-Nadine
October 1st, 2004, 01:25 PM
Well for one I'm not realy eclectic anymore, all the gods I specificaly name in worship if it's just me are Greek Gods. (If I'm with others, I'm totaly comfortable with adding others Gods to the ritual, it doesn't bother me one bit.)

Two, I've never experienced a Hellenic ritual, but I would like to. I'd have to try it to see if it was my thing. I suspect I would learn alot about the Greek Gods I include in my Wiccan worship from experiencing Hellenic Worship.I don't know where you live, and I don't know what recourses are available in you area, but Hellenion is US based and is a registered 501 (c)(3) religious organization that is expanding its local congregations. www.hellenion.org (http://www.hellenion.org/)

If you would like more information on the religious beliefs and practices of Hellenismos, these sites are really good starting points:

Hellenic Ethics: Living Virtues in Community (http://www.ecauldron.com/greekethics.php)
Sponde! (http://sponde.com/)
Hellenismos 101 (http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=14287&discussionID=165334)
What is Hellenismos? (http://www.winterscapes.com/sannion/hellenismos.htm)
Temenos Theon (http://kyrene.4t.com/index.html)

Greek Religion, by Walter Burkert is a wonderful book, as is Old Stones, New Temples, by Drew Campbell--Old Stones... might be a bit difficult to find since it's out of print now, but you should be able to find it through Barnes & Noble's out of print book dealers online, through Amazon, or Ebay.


I do have some reservations about worshiping some of the greek gods, like Ares the God of War for example..... So if I don't "get over" that I might not be able to claim both Hellenic and Wicca. I understand that.Hellenes aren't required to worship every god in the pantheon. Some do, some have only one or two gods they regularly worship. Out of respect and proper piety, we give respect to all of the gods--one may include all of them during a brief regular libation or sacrifice of honey, milk, incense, or some other appropriate item--but not all of Them are actively worshipped. Many Hellenes have their own Patrons like other People religions.


Beliefs.....I'm not sure how Hellenic Recon beliefs are different that Wicca.... I know I'm a soft polytheist, and that's unusual for a Recon, but is it totaly unacceptable? Hellenismos has always encompassed a large number of varying beliefs on the nature of divinity--even 3,000 years ago. The One from which Everything sprung is not an uncommon view in Hellenismos, though The One is not generally considered to be a god, but The Void, or Chaos from which al of the universe began. It is the primordial energy (and lack thereof) that is the parent of everything, including the gods.

There are polytheists, pantheists, henotheists, kanenotheists, etc. in Hellenismos. There is no hard and fast rule as to how one must view the gods in order to worship Them. :)

Modern Hellenic Reconstructionists, receive our ethical inspiration directly from the teachings of our spiritual ancestors. We are not trying to recreate the Ancient society our religion came from and created.

The beliefs of Hellenismos are centered around proper acts of piety (Eusebeia) and the community. Home, family, and community are the most important things to a Hellenist, and every deed done and action taken is done so with consideration of how it may affect the community as a whole. Ethics and religion in Hellenismos are not separate, and cannot be separated. Many of the ethical concepts are based on the Delphic Maxims. The three most important (after piety) are below.

First, is Reciprocity:

Friends (this includes family) help you. As such, you are obligated to help them, and vice versa.

Enemies cause (or would cause) harm to you or your friends, and you are expected to harm them in return either proactively or in defense of yourself or your family. There is no Rede, or concept of any type of creed to harm none. Refusing to harm an enemy with the right action goes against the beliefs of Hellenismos as by doing so, one harms one's community by refusing to take action against those who would harm one's self, friends, or family. This isn't quite as harsh as it sounds--it's balanced out by the following principals.

Strangers fall into neither of the above categories, so they are looked upon with a mixture of suspicion and generosity until their relationship with you can be determined. They will treat you that way as well.

Our relationships with the gods is also based on receprocity. We give offerings when asking for Their blessings, or promise offerings to Them to be granted upon receipt of Their blessings--gift for gift.

Second, is Moderation:

This is the ability to recognize the right action for a given situation, and it covers every aspect of life. This is what balances out Reciprocity. This requires that each and every situation be viewed realistically, and that every action taken be done so in keeping with moderation. Virtues such as, self-restraint, appropriate public modesty, and appropriate self-esteem reflect the principal of moderation.


Every virtue, suggests Aristotle, can be seen in terms of the mean between two extremes. These extremes may not be evils in the abstract, and indeed sometimes the mean will lean more toward one than the other, but when moderated by self-restraint and rational thought, they generate the best solution. So, for example, the virtue of courage is the mean between two feelings, fear and confidence, but leans toward the latter.Yet, even moderation must be practiced in moderation. At times, it is necessary to indulge. Festivals dedicated to Dionysos include drinking alcohol, often enough to become inebriated.

Third, is Hospitality:

Hospitality is sared to the gods, especially to Zeus. He is protector of supplicants, and looks down upon those who turn one away. Guests in one's home are under Divine protection, and are to be treated as family while they are there. If someone in poverty begs for help, hospitality can mean showing compassion. Hospitality toward an enemy can mean avoiding him. Friends are to be aided. Sacred things are to be acknowledged. Anger is to be controlled. Unjust acts are to be avoided. The divine is to be worshipped. Kinsmen are to be cultivated.

Pandoras
October 2nd, 2004, 10:05 PM
Well, since Wicca and Hellenism are both pagan, I don't really see a conflict even though there are some differences. The more controversial issues regarding mixing is not generally about pantheons, but religious ideologies that are inherently different at the core - like Paganism and Christianity. And just to be clear (because I know this will come up), I want to emphasize that I mean Paganism the religion and not the practice of witchcraft and magic, which is found in some form or other in almost every religion.

Romani Vixen
October 3rd, 2004, 04:59 PM
I mix. As long as it has importance to you... :) just be careful when dealing with the different Gods. Not all of them get along, and when they're from the same pantheon, you generally have a clue of that ahead of time.

aluokaloo
October 3rd, 2004, 07:52 PM
Well that would mean that youre a hellenistic wiccan and there is absolutely nothiong wrong with . Mixing is more like adding a little bit of everything into the old cauldron,that, hehe bad joke. :bigblue: