Mixing Theologies

[Loopaleigh]

Here goes (takes a deep breath) I'm about to bring up a controversial topic.
I am posting this in Just Pagan, because well, I would like to get a just pagan point of view on this.
How do you all feel about mixing theologies? By this I mean specifically mixing the Abrahamic faiths (Christianity, Jewdaica and Islam) with Paganism.
Now I'm not talking about the things we have in common with these faiths. I am talking about the things we don't have in common with them. Mainly views on the Nature of the Divine, Humanities relationship with the Divine, original sin, salvation, etc, etc. I won't go into a long winded discription of each, because you all are already knowlegdable on each, or you wouldn't have chosen the Pagan religion.
At their very cores these 3 faiths clash with the core beliefs of Paganism. However it has been my observation that in the last few years more and more people are mixing theologies.
For every individual that mixes one of these 3 faiths with one or more paths of Paganism there is probably a different reason for this choice for each person.
I'm not questioning or comdemning this choice, every person has a right to their beliefs, but I do have to wonder if some of the core beliefs of Paganism are getting lost in the process.
I realize that the roots of modern Paganism run the board from Western Occultism (in terms of magical practice itself influenced by the Abrahamic faiths), ancient religions and pantheons, Eastern thought, Nat'v American, Santeria and other Afro-Caribbean faiths, even Pop Culture. However we share more of a kindred spirit with these than we do with the big 3.
So my questions are.....how do you feel about this trend? Do you even see it as a trend, and if so, how do you think it will impact Paganism in the future.
Do you ever wonder that the things that brought you to Paganism (whatever path of it you walk) wil get completly washed away in the tide of making one big ocean?
Do you think they should be mixed in the spirit of a One World Faith, and if so, what about Paganism would you sacrifice?

(Hits submit and braces for impact!)

[ap Dafydd]

I quite agree with you. It surprised me to see how many Christians are actually members of this site. My own fear is that the new-agey currents that see nothing wrong with splodgy all-purpose spirituality are quite happy to blend Paganism with Christianity (less so with Islam, I note, I've not yet met someone who describes themselves as an Islamic Witch: don't know what conclusions to draw from that...)

Personally I think they're missing the point.

I accept that they're quite sorted in their own minds about it and I certainly don't want to get into a debate because neither of us are going to change our minds about it, but for me the old dictionary definition of "Pagan" as being "not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim" is quite true. Not sufficient as a definition, because Pagans aren't lots of other things too, but certainly necessary.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Shanti]

All I can say from the way I feel, is that I think its a wonderful that christian witches are around. To mix Christianity,Judaica or Islam with paganism is great!!!!

I was about to give up all hope of christianity ever becoming even a little tolerant of pagans when I found the christian/pagan/witches right here on MW. They renewed my hope that maybe someday we all can be tolerant and live side by side in peace.

And mixing I dont belive hurts either 'side'. Some of the most beautiful colors are the ones created from mixing the others together!!!!!!

[KaliGiri5]

I don't think the 3 religions clash..they are the trinity.
all that fighting comes from 1 jealous bitter old woman..Sarah
all 3 sacred text say about the same things..
For me Christian as least to live by the book..
Muslim seem closer to the "Christian" way than Christians

so there is no real mix.
the only conflict between the Jews & Muslim is land...not God..not worship
the land was to be given to the firstborn which would be Ishmael.
the "mix" comes from western view of this religion and the people.

witchcraft..many of that was used by Arabs pre Islam
everything from astrology(which was seen as part of magic) to tarot and magic is theirs..
when people talk about gypsy magic..they came from them
so yes you can follow all 3 and still be pagan.
Islamics still has a few little paganish things within..it's more a culture thing

[Loopaleigh]

Thanks to everyone that has replied so far. I hope when others see that a few brave people have posted it will lead to more.

Witchcraft, or the practice of magic, is not what makes Paganism, Paganism. Witchcraft is not a religion. You can be a witch and belong to any religion. Although some religions frown on it, the practice of magic is universal in some form to all religions.

Paganism is a religion. Most Pagans, but not all, practice magic. Separate from the practice of magic however is the fact that Paganism has a core set of beliefs and theology. A world view that is very different from the big 3.

More and more however I see people taking the "fun" or "cool" stuff from Paganism, mixing it with their Abrahamic theology and calling it Paganism. What they are practicing can be called Witchcraft most certainly, but it is not Paganism. As ap Dafydd put it in his above post..."I think they are missing the point."

And my apologies KaliGiri5 if this sounds rude....but if you think the only conflict between Jews and Muslims is land...not God or worship...you are being naive.
But in all honesty, I don't care what they are fighting about, what I care about is the impact they have on MY religion.

And Shanti...I also think it is great that Christians are becoming more tolerent, interested, etc. Open communications between faiths is always a good thing. It dispels rumors and myths and shows us what we have in common. However I do believe that mixing theologies does hurt Paganism. It might help Christianity! Which is great. But what parts of Paganism are you willing to let get lost?

The part where we don't believe in One God. The part where we don't see Jesus Christ as our saviour and only way to that One God. The part where we don't get "what" it is that we are being "saved" from. The part where we don't believe in Adam and Eve and the fall of man? The part where we see the Earth as a living entity that we should attempt to live in harmony with and take care of to the best of our ability, and not something to be conquered, subjagated or abused? The part where we can see the Divine as not just Transcendent, but Immanent as well. I could go on and on, because these are the things that make Paganism, Paganism..........not Tarot or Astrology or casting spells.

Please keep posting people....don't be shy! This is what a good Forum is for!

[Writer_Waif]

Mixing Theologies isn't really an issue for me. To me it is whatever is comfortable for you. Just don't try to push your 'way' on me. I am quite happy on my own path but willing to listen and learn new things along the way.

:boquet:

[Pandoras]

I agree with you and ap Dafydd.

I was very surprised when I first came to Mystic Wicks, an "Online Pagan Community," and found Christians.

Pluralism is good, but only to a point. I have no problem with eclecticism, but that doesn't mean we can grab whatever we want from here and there and call it Pagan. If one doesn't believe in Jesus Christ, one cannot be Christian. It's the same with Paganism. Paganism may be a wide religion with many trimmings, but it still contains certain core beliefs.

For years, Pagans have been ranting and raving about Christianity stamping out paganism with violent force and assimilating pagan beliefs, holidays, and deities in the process. Today, it's being done only with a friendly arm rather than a strong one.

Now, I know someone is going to come along and say that I'm intolerant or that I'm not Christian so I don't know what I'm talking about and, thus shouldn't talk about the Bible or Christianity. But the fact is, I was Christian once. And now I'm not. I'm Pagan. And I know the differece between the two.

[Writer_Waif]

Now, I know someone is going to come along and say that I'm intolerant or that I'm not Christian so I don't know what I'm talking about and, thus shouldn't talk about the Bible or Christianity. But the fact is, I was Christian once. And now I'm not. I'm Pagan. And I know the differece between the two.

I too was Christian once ....
There are many reasons I left that path and won't get into them here (if you wish PM me and I will share). I was never comfortable there though, always questioning and getting rebuked for doing so. I do not follow blindly in anything I do, I question ... and question and question more ... till everyone is tired of it but continue to do so till I am comfortable with understanding what is being said or I move on to something different.

_catroll_

[Pandoras]

I too was Christian once ....
There are many reasons I left that path and won't get into them here (if you wish PM me and I will share). I was never comfortable there though, always questioning and getting rebuked for doing so. I do not follow blindly in anything I do, I question ... and question and question more ... till everyone is tired of it but continue to do so till I am comfortable with understanding what is being said or I move on to something different.

I think that you're right to question faith. I think everyone should. I certainly have and continue to do so. So, if you don't mind sharing, how do you identify yourself today? Do you consider yourself Christian or something else?

I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed by the lack of response. I think this is a very interesting and provocative thread. Are folks afraid? Is this not an issue facing other Pagans? Wha?

[Writer_Waif]

I think that you're right to question faith. I think everyone should. I certainly have and continue to do so. So, if you don't mind sharing, how do you identify yourself today? Do you consider yourself Christian or something else?

I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed by the lack of response. I think this is a very interesting and provocative thread. Are folks afraid? Is this not an issue facing other Pagans? Wha?

I am Pagan, I left the Christain path four years ago. I follow a Celtic/Native American/Shamanic path now.

:ringaroun

[Isa]

I don't have any problem with it. The big 3 (as they were so called) all base the conflicting concepts on their individual scriptures. These scriptures were written by men (that is to say human beings, I'm not attempting to make a feminist argument here @_@) inspired by their religion. Perhaps there was a divine push there, I'll give believers the benefit of the doubt ... but God did not sit down a write the scriptures, a person did. That person naturally brought along all the cultural presumptions and standards of their day. Plus symbolism and metaphors and what have you.

The concept of what is Dogma and what are cultural relics that can be disregarded in the modern era is something that is the subject of much debate in all three communities, something that has been overlooked in this discussion so far XD What's to say that an interpretation of Christianity that makes it more compatible with Paganism is not just as true to the religion as say .... Mormonism?

Secondly ... what is Paganism? Is Paganism Wicca? Is Paganism not being Christian, Jewish, or Muslim? Is Paganism believing in many gods? Take the latter. Christian believes in one god right? Yet many Roman Catholic communities will have festivals to honor the virgin Mary or the saints... what is the difference between honoring/praying to the saints and worshipping minor dieties? Many anthropologist argue there is no difference.

[Loopaleigh]

So if you left the Christian chruch Phoenix, then you obviously saw some difference in theology there. The Christian way of viewing the Divine didn't fit with what you felt was right for you in your heart. You were questioning (which is good, big fan of it myself), but not getting the answers that felt right for you. Is that right?

What is it about your current path of Paganism that attracted you then? From your post it seems you chose your current path out of religious beliefs, but some people only chose the trappings, and discard the beliefs all together.
I worry that this will turn Paganism into the "whatever you want it to be" religion, with no real identity or shape.

I knew that this would be a touchy topic, but I didn't expect it to go practically ignored. I thought it would lead to discussion. Is everyone so afraid of being accused of intolerance that they don't want to give their opinion? Disagreeing with one another isn't being intolerent, it's simply not agreeing. Doesn't mean we don't respect each other.

[Loopaleigh]

Thanks Isa for responding!
My defintion of Paganism is that Paganism is an umbrella term that has many branches...Wicca, Druidry, Shamanism, etc. It also means that you are not a Christian, Jew or Muslim. It also means that if you are not one of the big 3, you do not have their world view and you do not see the Divine the same way that they do.
No mattter how liberal a person's interpretation of Christianity is, to be Christian means to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. That's what the bible says. I know, I know...it was written by man, so on and so forth, I have read many threads on this. But this is how most Christian denominations define themselves.
When I started out on the Pagan path, it had a much clearer definition. Now I meet Pagans and they start telling me about how they follow Christ. Or how they cast all these spells and are really into magic, but still go to chruch on Sunday.
Don't you think Paganism should have SOME parameters? Some definitions that make us unique?

[Writer_Waif]

So if you left the Christian chruch Phoenix, then you obviously saw some difference in theology there. The Christian way of viewing the Divine didn't fit with what you felt was right for you in your heart. You were questioning (which is good, big fan of it myself), but not getting the answers that felt right for you. Is that right?

What is it about your current path of Paganism that attracted you then? From your post it seems you chose your current path out of religious beliefs, but some people only chose the trappings, and discard the beliefs all together.
I worry that this will turn Paganism into the "whatever you want it to be" religion, with no real identity or shape.

I knew that this would be a touchy topic, but I didn't expect it to go practically ignored. I thought it would lead to discussion. Is everyone so afraid of being accused of intolerance that they don't want to give their opinion? Disagreeing with one another isn't being intolerent, it's simply not agreeing. Doesn't mean we don't respect each other.

I questioned everything all the time, got told 'just believe it' .. I was like NO ..

Paganism has just been 'right' to me. Much of what I do is natural, I don't think about it, I don't worry about doing it wrong, I just do it. It has always been like this, it is like breathing for me. I don't have a name for it nor would I even try.

My path is a religious path, only because it is who I am .. my heritage plays a big part in that. Cherokee and Scottish are not things to ignore as far as the energy I get from both paths.

[Isa]

Thanks Isa for responding!
My defintion of Paganism is that Paganism is an umbrella term that has many branches...Wicca, Druidry, Shamanism, etc. It also means that you are not a Christian, Jew or Muslim. It also means that if you are not one of the big 3, you do not have their world view and you do not see the Divine the same way that they do.
No mattter how liberal a person's interpretation of Christianity is, to be Christian means to accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. That's what the bible says. I know, I know...it was written by man, so on and so forth, I have read many threads on this. But this is how most Christian denominations define themselves.

Well many people define Paganism as something different from witchcraft itself. Witchcraft being a practice and Paganism being a religion view. I am not a Christian Witch, but I see no reason a person can't believe Jesus is her savior and practice the craft of manifesting will. Many forms of Christian witchcraft have been around much longer than conventional Wicca or the Neo-Pagan movement (Santaria for example). Hardly seems fair to force them to get picky about things now XD

It's like.... can some one be a Christian and a scientist? Christians hold many beliefs that contradict science, and while I'm sure this has caused many a dilemma there are still many devote Christian who are scientists.

Don't you think Paganism should have SOME parameters? Some definitions that make us unique?

No absolutely not, I'm in the process of developing my own path (a hybrid of Zen, Taoism and Wicca) ... I'm one of those people that believe that god really doesn't care what name you call him or what stories you tell. Religion is how we package the world around us into something we can understand and discuss. Each person is going to take it somewhere different inside themselves so why try to force standards of belief?

[Pandoras]

Well many people define Paganism as something different from witchcraft itself. Witchcraft being a practice and Paganism being a religion view. I am not a Christian Witch, but I see no reason a person can't believe Jesus is her savior and practice the craft of manifesting will. Many forms of Christian witchcraft have been around much longer than conventional Wicca or the Neo-Pagan movement (Santaria for example).I don't think the question here is Christianity and witchcraft. Magic and witchcraft themselves have no religion and are generally universal and often found in all religions in some manner or other. The question is about Christianity (as well as Judeism and Islam) and Paganism. It's true that Santeros combine Afro-Caribbean practices with Catholicism, but they don't identify as Pagans. They identify as Santeros.

--- This is not directed at you Isa, it's a general statement/question to anyone ---

One thing I find very interesting is that most people will defend the idea, but don't explain how they reconcile these two opposing theologies. Loopaleigh raised important questions that I've seen other people on MW ask and they often get ignored.

The part where we don't believe in One God. The part where we don't see Jesus Christ as our saviour and only way to that One God. The part where we don't get "what" it is that we are being "saved" from. The part where we don't believe in Adam and Eve and the fall of man? The part where we see the Earth as a living entity that we should attempt to live in harmony with and take care of to the best of our ability, and not something to be conquered, subjagated or abused? The part where we can see the Divine as not just Transcendent, but Immanent as well.These are some of the things that make us Pagan, not witches.

People just throw the answer, well the Bible was written by men, it's a product of it's time and culture. Is this it? Is this the best answer?

[WolfWonderess]

My opinion:

I don't care. *shrug* It's not for me to judge someone else's spirituality and say whether it can work or not. It's up to the individual and their deities (if such applies). If they can get it to work and are happy and fulfilled...props to them! ^_^

[Isa]

The question is about Christianity (as well as Judeism and Islam) and Paganism.

*snip*

One thing I find very interesting is that most people will defend the idea, but don't explain how they reconcile these two opposing theologies.
*snipsnippysnip*

These are some of the things that make us Pagan, not witches.

Well I addressed my feeling about this in my first response. The problem is what makes Paganism Paganism has not been adequately defined in this discussion. If to be Pagan is simply NOT being Christian, Muslim or Jewish then there is logically no way to be a Christian Pagan. However if Paganism is defined as polytheism it's easy to use Mary as your Goddess, Jesus/God as your God figure and the Saints as minor dieties

Frankly I've never met anyone claiming to be a Pagan Christian, I assumed the OP meant Christian Witch XD

[SilentDreams]

Now I disagree. Maybe you have met different people than I. But I've noticed people mixing religions and witchcraft or magic, not theologies. I mean I have yet to see someone with christian beliefs on the divine and wiccan beliefs, it just clashes too much.

[Loopaleigh]

Just to clear up that I am not talking about mixing witchcraft with Paganism. I have no problem with people who call themselves Christian Witches. In fact the people I have met who practice this are quite clear about what it is they believe....They are Christians who practice magic. What I am talking about is people who hold on to their Christian theology, practice magic, and call it Paganism.

This is from post #5 of this thread where I state some destinctions between the two similar to Isa in post #15
-----------------------------
Witchcraft, or the practice of magic, is not what makes Paganism, Paganism. Witchcraft is not a religion. You can be a witch and belong to any religion. Although some religions frown on it, the practice of magic is universal in some form to all religions.

Paganism is a religion. Most Pagans, but not all, practice magic. Separate from the practice of magic however is the fact that Paganism has a core set of beliefs and theology. A world view that is very different from the big 3.

More and more however I see people taking the "fun" or "cool" stuff from Paganism, mixing it with their Abrahamic theology and calling it Paganism. What they are practicing can be called Witchcraft most certainly, but it is not Paganism.
---------------------------------
Now I do agree with Isa in one of her definitions of Paganism in that it is polytheistic. If you want more definitions here they are. To some Paganism is a monolatry. To some it is animism. To others it is a henotheism. And to others they might feel more comfortable with the pantheistic definition, or for some people, like myself, I have a mix of all of these. What Paganism is not is a monotheism. The Abrahamic faiths are very clear that they have only ONE god, and that God is separate from His creation. I don't know any Pagans who believe these two things. I didn't give lots of definitions at the beginning of the thread because it didn't think I would have to.

{From Isa's earlier post....
However if Paganism is defined as polytheism it's easy to use Mary as your Goddess, Jesus/God as your God figure and the Saints as minor dieties.}

Isa I do kinda get the logic here, by this def. that would seem to make sense. But what about the part where Jesus died for their sins because of the Fall of Adam and Eve? Pagans don't believe that.
If they are polytheistic and using the saints as minor dieties....but still holding onto Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, then what are they? Pagan or Christian? And if they are insisting that they are Pagan, doesn't that kinds start to change what Paganism is?

[argento_occhi]

wow, what an interesting discussion. i myself have never really thought about this, but having been raised Christian, i can kinda see what's being discussed here. My best friend is Christian, i'm Pagan. Naturally, there's areas of our beliefs that clash. My beliefs are mostly Egyptian (Kemetic) but are also an eclectic mix as well. They include the Code of Dinotopia, so i'd say that's pretty eclectic. My polytheism extends to just about any God you can name, including those of the big 3. I'm not mixing Christian and Kemetic beliefs, at least i don't think i am, though my best friend might argue otherwise. A Christian practicing magick and calling themselves pagan just doesn't make sense, at least not to me. What makes you pagan gets too mixed up with other beliefs til no one can really say what they are anymore. I'm not really against the mixing of theologies, each to their own, but calling it pagan when it clearly isn't quite that doesn't seem right. I hope i've made some sense here, my brain's not quite working properly today. I've got classes tomorrow, so my brain's switching off. You'll probably pick holes in it, but that's ok.

bright blessings,
argent

[Isa]

Isa I do kinda get the logic here, by this def. that would seem to make sense. But what about the part where Jesus died for their sins because of the Fall of Adam and Eve? Pagans don't believe that.
If they are polytheistic and using the saints as minor dieties....but still holding onto Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, then what are they? Pagan or Christian? And if they are insisting that they are Pagan, doesn't that kinds start to change what Paganism is?

Forms of Paganism have mythologies to explain why things are the way they are just like all other religions :3 Christians had Adam and Eve and the concept of sin to explain suffering, the Greeks had Pandora. What exactly is objectible about the Christian mythos? The concept of a Savior? Accept and appeal to Amida Buddha sincerely once in Pure Land Buddhism and all of your karmatic "sins" are erased and your allowed to enter heaven .... that's rather similar to Christianity no? Yet many people consider Buddhism quite compatible with Paganism if not a Pagan religion itself. Also neither Jews nor Muslims believe in Christ as a Savior, yet they are also uncompatible with Paganism?

I get the feeling, if you don't mind me saying so, that this is more a reactionary issue. If you're one of those people who believes Paganism is an oppressed miniority than of course you don't want Christian's stealing your thunder. But to be honest I like to take a more mellow stance. I don't think I could accurately speak for all Pagans everywhere, so I think it's a bad idea to try to root out the true believers from the others. If a Christian wants to run about calling himself a Pagan, even if it's for completely trendy and obnoxious reasons I don't see the problem. I don't lose any face by it happening XD and I think the alternative is a religious community built on snobbery instead of openness.

[Epona44]

Just as there are really wide variances in Christian practice and belief, there are really wide variances in pagan practice and belief.

When I found out that I was pagan, I retained some Christian ideals, then discovered that those ideals weren't unique to Christianity.

Defining beliefs is part of who we are. If we do not explore and test the validity of our premises, we develop a fuzzy sense of self.

[elfmage]

I think the reason that a lot of (newer and usually younger) Pagans mix Christian theology with Paganism is because, deep down, they are still scared sh**less of going to hell, suffering eternal torment, being condemned by their God, or whatever other fun punishments Christians have invented for non-believers.

And to me, that would indicate that they truly believe in neither of the two religions, and that about hald of the so-called "Pagans, Wiccans and Witches" that I have met are just saying they are to try and be cool. I am sorry, but if you are a devout atheist, and then read a book that mentions some generic goddess, and all of a sudden it is "oh my goddess, this looks cool, so I will join this religion and "worship" a deity that I do not believe in!" then I really think that a) you are missing the point, and b) you are an idiot.

If you genuinely "convert," that is all well and good. But religion is about beliefs, and I am seeing more and more that people are calling themselves "Pagan Christians" and believing in neither of the religions anyway. Just hegding their bets.

Well, that is my 2 cents. Feel free to scream and/or hate me.

[Loopaleigh]

Well I'm big enough to admit that Isa is right about "the reactionary" part as it relates to me and what I have said in this thread.
My reasons for starting this thread were based purely on frustration.

When I first discovered Paganism, I already had Pagan beliefs, I just didn't know there was a name for them.They were beliefs that just came as natural to me as breathing. But I was told as a child that I was wrong and acctually once got kicked out of Sunday school for asking to many questions.
I was raised in a fire and brimstone, hell and damnation Christian evironment. I felt deep in my heart that what I was told in Chruch, wasn't really quite right. As I grew up I started to see more and more how Christian theology shapes EVERYTHING around us. From our societies attitudes towards sex, rape, motherhood, fatherhood, women's roles, men's roles, politics, the way we treat the Earth, even the personality of the Divine. And what I saw as even worse is that people buy into it...lock, stock and barrel.
Not out of love for a man who was wise and gentle and enlightened (Jesus), but out of fear of God and burning in Hell.
Now I'll admit that I am a product of where and how I was brought up, and yes Isa you are also correct that I see Paganism as a repressed religion.
Why? Well for one, it has been 16 years since I discovered the name of my religion, and let me tell you alot of the attitudes toward Paganism by the general populace hasn't changed all that much.
This fact really hits home when I read someone say on this forum that they can't come out of the broom closet because they are afraid of how their family, friends, school, community, neighbors will react.....I find it sad and messed up. My heart breaks for them.
I no longer worry about "persecution" in terms of my own life...I'm too old to give a crap what people think about my religious beliefs.....but I do worry about it in terms of people who can't live their beliefs in peace in the so called freedom of religion that our country was founded on and pays so much lip service to.
It's good that you can take such a "mellow" stance on the issue, but some others in the U.S. and around the World discover theirs hearts true home and can't share it with anyone. If there is no such thing as persecution of our religion....then why all the fear?
And as far as people calling themselves Pagan for trendy and obnoxious reasons....that's just as bad, they are claiming to represent my religion and their antics just make us all look stupid and I can make myself look stupid all on my own, thank you very much.
I see the way Pagans look at the World, the Divine, Nature, Life, everything...as being something beautiful and special. Why? Because at it's very core Paganism has a different theology. I would like to see Paganism maintain that difference. I would like to see Paganism maintain an identity that is separate from Christianity.
Is that so horrible? Is that so wrong? I'm not intolerent...I don't care if people want to be Christian, I have Christian friends...I just don't want the idealology of Christianity leaking back into my Paganism.

I am a Taurus, my rant is over. I will go sit under a tree now and smell some flowers.

[Isa]

First off *hugs*! XD

Paganism is a persecuted religion definitely. Especially in certain areas of America. There is no denying that. Just I grew up in Affirmative Action obsessed community, where everything had to be just so and very PC so I've seen what a reactionary stance to a social problem like prejudice and persecution can do to people. It keeps old wounds open, pervents the community from moving past old hatred and in the end I think just leads to cycles of new hatred

I mean look at the Great Falls Incident (http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2086449&nav=0RaPPA7h), on one hand I think all religions should be respected ... on the other I see a Pagan woman who made a huge deal over a small issue. She's trying to force religious acceptance on a group of people who (the news coverage implies) tolerated her before but were not willing to embrace her. You can't force people to behave politely and when you try it only makes them WORSE bigots than they were before. If the town was seriously interfering with her rights to practice her religion I'd be all behind her fighting them tooth and nail, but I don't think they were ... I think it was just a reactionary issue.

So while sure you have every right to be annoyed and frustrated with your community. There are so many more positive ways to handle it. It seems unsatisfying I'm sure but I think the best way to handle persecution is to not let it corrupt you and treat every person with trust and openness (forgive my total cheeseness ^_^;;;)

[Serendipity]

There are several reasons I keep coming back to paganism as a faith/belief/religion/path. One of them being that it is very versitile and allows you to believe in what you need for yourself personally. I like that there isn't someone yelling at you that if you believe one way, you'll end up in a firey pit of flames for all eternity. I like that if I don't want a god/goddess, I don't have to have one. Or if I want 10 of each, I can have them.

For me, personally, there are some religions that just don't mesh together well for me. But just because it isn't right for me, doesn't mean it isn't right for someone else. As long as no one tries to beat their caldron/bible in my face, I will respect them and their beliefs.

[Loopaleigh]

Hmmm....I have mixed thoughts about that incident.....

On the one hand I believe FIRMLY in the separation of Chruch and State. I understand that in small towns such as this one....practicaly everyone is the same religion. But prayer and religious references do not belong in matters of politics...although in truth it is amost impossible to separate the two.
Now on that same note....let's say we have a town where the majority of people are Pagan and a handful of people are Christian. Opening the Town Council meeting with the Charge of the Goddess would be inapropriate....just as inapropriate as opening it with a prayer to Jesus. If this had been the case....I would have sided with the Christians.

One the other hand....I agree with you in that she could have gone about that in a different way. Sometimes cases like these end up being counter productive.

It comes down to compromise and being able to bend and flow. (now I'm being cheesy :) )


Paganism is a persecuted religion definitely. Especially in certain areas of America. There is no denying that. Just I grew up in Affirmative Action obsessed community, where everything had to be just so and very PC so I've seen what a reactionary stance to a social problem like prejudice and persecution can do to people. It keeps old wounds open, pervents the community from moving past old hatred and in the end I think just leads to cycles of new hatred

I agree.


But my original intent with the thread wasn't really about activism, it was more about mixing theologies.

[Isa]

Yes we got rather off-topic there I think XD XD XD

[DebLipp]

First of all, people hate when I do this but it's driving me crazy...

There's no such religion as "Judaica." The religion is "Judaism" and people who practice it are "Jews." "Judaica" is the stuff associated with Judaism; if you go into a Judaica shop you can buy books, menorot, chanukiot, seder plates, mezzuzim, etc.

I think some people are combining some aspects of their childhood religions successfully. Chrisitians incorporate Jesus as a Pagan God on a Pagan altar. Or, they use Pagan ritual styles to practice a private form of Christianity. Jews worship pre-Abramic Hebrew deities, the native deities of their tribe. In none of these cases are theologies really being blended. In two cases, deities are being added to Pagan worship and the theology remains Pagan. In one case, style and format are being added to Christianity but the theology remains Christian. (I can think of no examples, in my many years of Paganism, of encountering someone blending Paganism and Islam.)

I agree that you cannot usually successfully blend theologies. You cannot blend a theology that polytheism is sinful with active polytheism, for example. But you can often successfully blend practice and deities, and you can often borrow the front end of one religion to add to the back end of another.

[DebLipp]

The part where we don't believe in One God. The part where we don't see Jesus Christ as our saviour and only way to that One God. The part where we don't get "what" it is that we are being "saved" from. The part where we don't believe in Adam and Eve and the fall of man? The part where we see the Earth as a living entity that we should attempt to live in harmony with and take care of to the best of our ability, and not something to be conquered, subjagated or abused? The part where we can see the Divine as not just Transcendent, but Immanent as well. I could go on and on, because these are the things that make Paganism, Paganism..........not Tarot or Astrology or casting spells.

Really good list.

This won't be lost. It's core to modern Paganism and that won't change. It isn't for everyone, though, and the people it isn't for are showing up and taking other things from Paganism. And that's great, they can't hurt us.

[Loopaleigh]

This won't be lost. It's core to modern Paganism and that won't change. It isn't for everyone, though, and the people it isn't for are showing up and taking other things from Paganism. And that's great, they can't hurt us.


Thanks DebLipp :hugz: The re-asurrance means alot!
Maybe "borrowing" from us will help them out!

[Pandoras]

I think some people are combining some aspects of their childhood religions successfully. Chrisitians incorporate Jesus as a Pagan God on a Pagan altar. Or, they use Pagan ritual styles to practice a private form of Christianity. Jews worship pre-Abramic Hebrew deities, the native deities of their tribe. In none of these cases are theologies really being blended. In two cases, deities are being added to Pagan worship and the theology remains Pagan. In one case, style and format are being added to Christianity but the theology remains Christian. (I can think of no examples, in my many years of Paganism, of encountering someone blending Paganism and Islam.)
Would you clarify this statement? I'm not sure I'm understanding it the way you intend it.

Really good list.

This won't be lost. It's core to modern Paganism and that won't change. It isn't for everyone, though, and the people it isn't for are showing up and taking other things from Paganism. And that's great, they can't hurt us.
I don't entirely agree. I think the core of Paganism is changing. I often hear (and read) comments where people say that Paganism doesn't even have core beliefs, that Paganism allows one to believe anything one wants.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with eclecticism. I am an eclectic Pagan. But I don't think that means that I can grab whatever I want, from here and there and call it Pagan. I don't think that just because a religion contains Pagan elements (and many do) means that the religion is Pagan.

[DebLipp]

Would you clarify this statement? I'm not sure I'm understanding it the way you intend it.
When you add Jesus as a deity to a Pagan altar, you are not changing the theology of Paganism, which is inclusive of adding new deities. The pantheon blends in Christianity but the theology remains Pagan—polytheistic and inclusive.

When you worship pre-Judaic Semetic gods, the effect is the same. You are not theologically Jewish. This sort of "Jewish Paganism" is, essentially, Hebraic Reconstructionism (although it's never all-out reconstructionism, what with the sacrifices and all).

When you practice Christian Witchcraft, you add a (sometimes) Pagan practice to Christianity, but your theology remains Christian.

In my book The Elements of Ritual, I describe the three activities of religion as they correspond to the four elements.

The Air of religion is theology, it is the ideas and beliefs.
The Water of religion is the mythology, it is the stories and dreams.
The Earth of religion is the ritual, it is the physical doing.
The Fire of religion is the mysticism, it transcends and transforms.

What I am saying is you can easily blend different Water and Earth in religion, but Air/theology tends to be an either/or proposition.

I don't entirely agree. I think the core of Paganism is changing. I often hear (and read) comments where people say that Paganism doesn't even have core beliefs, that Paganism allows one to believe anything one wants.

Just to clarify, I have no problem with eclecticism. I am an eclectic Pagan. But I don't think that means that I can grab whatever I want, from here and there and call it Pagan. I don't think that just because a religion contains Pagan elements (and many do) means that the religion is Pagan.
Well, we're going to have a hard time telling anyone they can't call themselves Pagan. But I've been Pagan for 23 years, long enough to see trends come and go, to see the young leap in and then leap away. It doesn't worry me. The web is misleading as it overrepresents beginners. Message boards in EVERY subject always have more newbies than anything else. Hence a more "I can do what I want" attitude and a lack of understanding of the fundamentals. Honestly, don't let it worry you.

[Pandoras]

When you add Jesus as a deity to a Pagan altar, you are not changing the theology of Paganism, which is inclusive of adding new deities. The pantheon blends in Christianity but the theology remains Pagan—polytheistic and inclusive...When you practice Christian Witchcraft, you add a (sometimes) Pagan practice to Christianity, but your theology remains Christian.OK, well, then I did understand it correctly and I agree with you. But what if it's the other way around? I'm curious as to what you think about people who add Paganism (not witchcraft or magic) to Christianity. For instance, is one really a Pagan if one believes that the Earth is sacred, Mary is a goddess, but humans are inherently sinful and in need of salvation through Jesus and Jesus only? I see sense in Paganism that includes Christian concepts and deities as well as with Christian Witchcraft, but I have more difficulty understanding Christo-Paganism. Well, we're going to have a hard time telling anyone they can't call themselves Pagan. But I've been Pagan for 23 years, long enough to see trends come and go, to see the young leap in and then leap away. It doesn't worry me. The web is misleading as it overrepresents beginners. Message boards in EVERY subject always have more newbies than anything else. Hence a more "I can do what I want" attitude and a lack of understanding of the fundamentals. Honestly, don't let it worry you.Well, of course, I'm not going to go around telling people such things, but you know what I mean, you've been around. Thanks for you answer though; it's very reassuring.

[Brigid Bishop]

As I am a Templar Christain with Pagan Roots I feel that I must respond to this with a little information that may be esoteric to many here.

Much of Paganism is based on the Qabalah, which has a common thread to the Judeo Christian Bible. When you study Comparative Religion you find that Jesus was a naturalist, he said "build me no temple of wood, your temple is within".

He was a naturalist, and if you follow Templar Christianity you find that Christ was also a master Qabalist (Magician). Mary Magdeline was not a "prostitute" as the misinterpretted versions of the gospel from aramaic quote, (see the book: Bloodline of the Holy Grail) but a "high priestess" in the Pagan community at Christ's time.

Templar Christianity is based on an accurate translation of the original aramaic to English, when you find these translations in books such as those referenced you find that much of the mysticism of Christ is removed with logical explanations for the whole mythology that grew around Christ.

He wanted everyone to be accepting and encouraged no one to become "A Christian", he encouraged people to be kind to each other, which, to me, equates to "Harm None, Do What Ye Will" (Do unto others as you would have them do unto you).

In the story of Lazurus, the Hebraic translation, which was faulty, makes you think that Lazurus was actually physically dead and that Christ brought him back to life in some warped Frankensteinian way. If you learn the actual Aramaic translation you find that Lazurus was deemed "dead" because his temple elders excommunicated him. They would not allow him entrance to the temple and Christ brought him in, despite the rabbi's scorn. This was how Christ raised the dead.

Religion, no matter what faith, is the human way of trying to explain where we came from and where we are going. Paganism, in all of it's forms is the purest and oldest religion on earth as it came from prehistoric man trying to control and explain his environment. The god of the hunt evolved from ancient man celebrating a successful hunt, the celebration turned into a ritual, the ritual became engrained in the society, so a little dancing around a fire after killing a bison and donning it's heads gave birth to one of our gods. As you now know, the gods of the old religions evolve into the devils of the new religions. When Judaism began to be documented and they needed a bad guy, who did the bad guy look like? The god of the hunt of course!!! So that people would be frightened and convert!

Ra, the Sun God. Who else would ancient man worship? They did not know that the sun was just a celestial body, or that every star was a sun so to speak, so that's the god they worshipped.

We worship the moon, the moon controls the tides, cycles, etc., having once been part of the earth, why not worship her? She exerts a power over us that can actually be seen and felt.

Everyone wants their religion to be the "right" religion, not me. I am a Universalist. I accept and respect all religions and faiths and I search for the common thread that binds them all, and what binds them all is our innate human need to know where we came from and where we are going. The common thread. The basis of nearly every religion in the world is to be kind to your fellow man. The only religions I do not accept are those that desecrate or denigrate others.

So how do I feel about mixing my religions? Wonderful! I enjoy a metaphysical cocktail consisting of a shot of just about everything out there. The only difference for me between dieties is there name. To me "god" is the collective unconscious, all that is, all that was and all that will be!

God is me, God is You.

[Brigid Bishop]

The part where we don't believe in One God. The part where we don't see Jesus Christ as our saviour and only way to that One God. The part where we don't get "what" it is that we are being "saved" from. The part where we don't believe in Adam and Eve and the fall of man? The part where we see the Earth as a living entity that we should attempt to live in harmony with and take care of to the best of our ability, and not something to be conquered, subjagated or abused? The part where we can see the Divine as not just Transcendent, but Immanent as well. I could go on and on, because these are the things that make Paganism, Paganism..........not Tarot or Astrology or casting spells.

Please keep posting people....don't be shy! This is what a good Forum is for!

I hope you don't mind me pointing this out, but Astrology has no association with any religion whatsoever, although some religions more willingly accept it, Astrology is actually a science, based completely and entirely on Math.

Tarot is not Pagan at all. Tarot is actually a Judeo-Christian art, it is based primarily on the Qabalah, which is the ancient Hebrew Text that the modern Judeo Christian Bible evolved from. In the Judaic history men wanted to take control of religion away from the women, so the modern bible was born of the Qabalah. The Qabalah gave birth to Tarot.

Thanks for letting me post!

[DebLipp]

OK, well, then I did understand it correctly and I agree with you. But what if it's the other way around? I'm curious as to what you think about people who add Paganism (not witchcraft or magic) to Christianity. For instance, is one really a Pagan if one believes that the Earth is sacred, Mary is a goddess, but humans are inherently sinful and in need of salvation through Jesus and Jesus only? I see sense in Paganism that includes Christian concepts and deities as well as with Christian Witchcraft, but I have more difficulty understanding Christo-Paganism.

Frankly, that's their problem. I'm a Pagan, and I deal with Pagans, Pagan theology and Pagan ritual. The Christians need to deal with Christian theology, Christian ritual, and all that. Not my area of expertise.

[Loopaleigh]

I hope you don't mind me pointing this out, but Astrology has no association with any religion whatsoever, although some religions more willingly accept it, Astrology is actually a science, based completely and entirely on Math.

Tarot is not Pagan at all. Tarot is actually a Judeo-Christian art, it is based primarily on the Qabalah, which is the ancient Hebrew Text that the modern Judeo Christian Bible evolved from. In the Judaic history men wanted to take control of religion away from the women, so the modern bible was born of the Qabalah. The Qabalah gave birth to Tarot.

Thanks for letting me post!

Hi BB...thanks for posting! If you read back through my earlier posts, you'll see where I have said something similar. (Or at least the meaning was similar)

I (and you) know that Tarot and Astrology are not exclusive to Paganism, but I do meet people all the time that say they are Pagan (because they read Tarot, or are "into" Astrology) yet know nothing of the religious beliefs. Or if they do know about the beliefs they chuck 'em out.

What they are doing is:
A) practicing witchcraft (which is fine, but it doesn't mean their Pagan) and/or
B) attempting to "shock" people or get a reaction somehow from people that is negative

So, in short...I agree with you!
I guess what I am saying is that to me Paganism in any form is about so much more than witchcraft and magic.

[Brigid Bishop]

Hi BB...thanks for posting! If you read back through my earlier posts, you'll see where I have said something similar. (Or at least the meaning was similar)

I (and you) know that Tarot and Astrology are not exclusive to Paganism, but I do meet people all the time that say they are Pagan (because they read Tarot, or are "into" Astrology) yet know nothing of the religious beliefs. Or if they do know about the beliefs they chuck 'em out.

What they are doing is:
A) practicing witchcraft (which is fine, but it doesn't mean their Pagan) and/or
B) attempting to "shock" people or get a reaction somehow from people that is negative

So, in short...I agree with you!
I guess what I am saying is that to me Paganism in any form is about so much more than witchcraft and magic.

GOTCHA!!! Thanks for replying.

[phyrefly]

A fairly good name for a topic. Are there not as many religions as there are human beings?
Loopaleigh captures my sentimants well. This 'what' we are being 'saved' from is none other than the abyss between signifiers and the signified. The attempt by the Other's religion is to get you to replace your signifier with theirs. Hilarious, because you may feign submission, but as president Bush says, 'You can't hide.' Sooner of later you realize that the object of desire (having a signifier, being 'saved' from the lack of one) is unattainable, and that this is life itself. Desire caught by the tail, chasing one signifier after another. That's 'ok' I'm 'ok' and so are you. Oh, this unrelenting loop! Please help me with this unbearable tedium of being! :fpcsucks