VERY important and thought provoking

[Danustouch]

This is a very important and thought provoking article, regarding the "Burning Times". It gives a very good argument as to whether or not perpetuating the myth that the people killed in the European and Salem witch trials, were indeed.."Witches", is damaging to both the craft, and to womens movements. What do you guys think? Does the author have a valid point?

http://www.anglo-saxon.demon.co.uk/Skvala/burning.html

[Earth Walker]

One question will suffice: Do they print that on Toilet Paper?:mad:

[Swanspirit]

Mouldy Cheeeeese and Wheat ! LOL
Most neopagans .... witches .....and wiccans know by now that the "Burning Times" numbers were greatly exaggerated..... and that many other "heretical beleivers "were persecuted and hanged and tortured and burned for their beliefs or other reasons by Catholic and Protestant Christians. The anthropological and societal information available to us also reveals ignorance of many things including inhumane treatment of , the insane , the poor, Jews , the list goes on and on .........
Some anthropologists believe that some people burnt for witches had eaten "mouldy wheat " and were hallucinating and ill ...., and having worked with the mentally ill for many years I am certain that many people were burnt for being seen as possessed because they were nothing more than ill, and their behaviors were irrational and frightening .
So the motivation for "Never Again the Burning Times" can be ascribed to inhumane and persecutory treatment of all people for multiple reasons .... not handed over to any one faction by anyone .... no one "OWNS " it LOL and I am sorry but to me ....the idea is laughable .
Lets do something about slavery in the Africa, racism in America , the Rape of Mother Earth in the name of progress , and put the NEO_ back in NEO-Pagan ........instead of worrying about silly stuff like this :>
Love and Light
Swannie

[Danustouch]

Mystique...instead of just asking such a question..why don't you give us some reasons WHY you disagree with this treatise?

Swannie..I'm not quite sure what you mean. In MY Experience, within the Pagan community...MANY people STILL don't understand that the women killed in the witch trials were not "witches". I have heard SOOOOOOO many people (especially those from the younger age groups)..who try to claim direct descent, and family lineage from these people killed in the witch trials. Of course, I understand that most of them who DO....are probably looking for some sort of validation/acceptance/sense of power. But...the reason I thought this article was so important, is that it points out the REAL motivations behind many of the witchcraft trials, which was in many cases, mysogyny. The people who go around, propelling myths about the faith (such as that we were persecuted in the Salem Witch trials...)..Need to understand that their propelling these myths, really does NOTHING to benefit us. I'm not saying, that we should NOT be aware that there is persecution going on about religious and racial issues. But..that we have to be able to separate the truth from the myths. And have integrity in that which we teach. That is what I got out of this article. That we need to pay more attention to the fact that the witch trials were an extreme case of mysogyny, and of greed, and that we must make sure that THOSE issues are dealt with, so that they don't repeat themselves.

[Tigerwallah]

Frankly, there is enough evidence to point in the direction of these women (and some men) having been executed because that people had a fear of satanism and witchcraft, and a mistrust of women.

Remember, much of this occurred during a time where people were very very superstitious, and affraid of the unknown. People with illnesses were looked at as if they were being posessed, people were tried of a crime by torture (the vindicated with find salvation), and cats were murdered because people feared their association with witches.

It was not until the 20th century that women were given rights and not looked as being owned by their husbands. So, I think that there is truth on both sides, but more of it leans toward fear of witchcraft. I doubt that many of these women were actually witches. Remember McCarthy-ism and the political witch-hunts for communists in Hollywood? Most accused were not communist. Fear cause hysteria.

[Earth Walker]

I got the impression that they were denying the truth about
the persecutions and murders of Pagans, etc.
It wasn't an attack on you, just my rant. :)

[Swanspirit]

Well not that old..........:sunny:
But I would think that most neo-pagans that have been around for a while have figured out some of the truths behins the mythology of all the people that were killed as "witches"
werent witches ,but if they admitted it ..... admitted it under torture..
Also throughout history conquerors forced the conquered to take on thier customs and gods ...... how much of the Jewish Religion became intermingled and adapted with Egyptian when they were there as slaves?

Perhaps some of the old "witch" practices were more along the lines of healing .... I am inclined to think that people just went along doing what they always did as far as those practices be they worship, celebrations , healings ,etc .... and didnt understand why all of a sudden they were being
persecuted and killed for it .
There is an INCREDIBLE book called the SONG of the FOREST ...... fictional story about Scotland, and in part of the story tells how the women had hidden their home wheat mills because they were being forced to grind their wheat at the mill owned by the Lord .....
but when he was defeated in battle they dug their mills up from where they had hidden them to make the first harvest bread to offer for the celebration.
I absolutely agree that the truth needs to be out.... it DRIVES me WILD LOL when people get the misinformation that is out there..... o that some pagans take on this victim stance of the poor persecuted pagan ......not that we dont have problems I just like to stay connected to reality
uhhhhhh on occasion LOL
Love and HUGS
Swannie

[EasternPriest]

Seems to me they are trying to provide some clarification.

There is also nothing "LOL" about the mold findings, as the compounds discovered are potent hallucinogens.

Yes, there were "witches" persecuted. But the truth is, the majority of those persecuted during the "burning times" were not witches.

That doesn't make what happened right - -it's wrong whether they were witches or not. But, there is nothing to loose and everything to gain when historical research clears up misconceptions.

Blessings.....

[Danustouch]

Mystique...I did not get the same thing out of it. Nor did I think you were personally attacking me :) . The article did not address the persecution of pagan religions in more ancient times (such as the persecutions by the Romans, etc.). I think it addressed the cases of Witch Hysteria that happened in Europe and America during the Colonial, and precolonial periods. That's how I took it. I don't think the author was denying that horrible things have been done to the pagan religions of the world. I think she was trying to make the distinction between the persecution of pagan faiths for religious reasons, and the persecution of people SUSPECTED of Witchcraft, for ULTERIOR motives, such as mysogyny, land hunger, and political reasons. Lets face it. Not everyone who was ever tried for witchcraft, was a practioner of the Old Ways....For instance, Anne Boleyn. (sp)..that was one of the charges brought against her. But by all accounts, the only thing she "did wrong"...wasn't actually her fault at all! She was unable to bear a son for the King. So, I think the authors point was that we need to be aware of the "Real" reasons for many of these murders, to do justice to the spirits of the people. Just as none of us would wish to be re-christened Christians, after death and burial (see previous article on Burial Rights), Neither should these people be assumed.."Witches". That is MY take on the article. Not to mention, it is important to me, that this information be provided, because all too often, I see New Pagans, come to the path, for some of what I would call..."The WRONG reasons". Some of them have a "martyr complex". In other words, they actually thrive on the whole.."We're being persecuted, we're being persecuted" Mind-set, because it makes them feel..oh....i don't know..rebellious??

Not to say that we AREN'T being persecuted...we are! But I would rather have them turn their attention to the things which they can CHANGE today, in the here and now, in this day and age, then on the things which happened centuries ago, which (as in the case of the Salem Trials) aren't even a pure example.

:) Anyway..that's just my opinion.

Thank you Tigerwallah, For your thoughtful post by the way. I agree. There is evidence on both sides of the story:)

[Swanspirit]

That the "molds " were powerful hallucinogens,
the LOL was not in reference to the effect of the wheat ... but to what I was calling the article ...... Mouldy Cheese..........
please dont read into what I am typing........ this medium is SO OPEN to MISCOMMUNICATION.
DO you really think that someone who worked for years helping HEALING people who are mentally ill is laughing at their circumstances in any age??? I am nationally certified in Psychiatric and Mental Health Nursing........and have spent more time(years and years) hands ON caring for children, adolescents, and adults, with those diseases than you can probalby IMAGINE......
Do you really think that I think its funny that people DIED for being mentally ILL?
You know what they say about MAKING ASSUMPTIONS???
BTW?????? were you ever an ordained priest in the Catholic Church? I was raised Catholic....spent 12 years in catholic school .... just curious.........
Love and Light
Swannie

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
this medium is SO OPEN to MISCOMMUNICATION.


You know what they say about MAKING ASSUMPTIONS???


I agree that this medium is open to miscommunication. Perhaps thats a good reason we should make sure our posts are not likely to be misinterpreted. We can't eliminate it, but we can limit the possibility with reasoned responses and carefully chosen words.

I was making no assumptions. I don't know you well enough to make any.

As for your last question, the answer is on my profile.

[Swanspirit]

and other Christians, were responsible for the murders of so many people in the name of "saving their souls" that the Pope has made an apology to that end ......which was sadly lacking in my opinion, for making up for the countless murders of innocent people ..... not to mention the warped version of history that was taught
as fact ..... like the "Conversion of Constantinople " was taught as this "mass conversion to Catholicism by the Emporer Constantinople " when in fact the people had to be coerced and threatenedn and murdered in order to convert them , but I was taught there was this wondrous conversion and that the people of the empire followed their Emporer i nto this faith.
So I think many factions.....neo-pagans and femininsts and Jewish and Bhuddists and Hindus etc. all share in having suffered at the hands of the Church, not JUST women who I feel still suffer from the narrow minded approach to the status of women in the church ..... no women priestesses .. we just dont rate quite high enough to be the intercessor with GOD in that religion[This is MY OPINION OF THE SYSTEM NOT of anyones individual faith] so I think the concept of handing over whatver issues this writer sees as problematic still doesnt give anyone exclusive rights to have issues in this area.
Actually there are witch burnings still happening in South africa .........but in a different context than the historical one which we are discussing in this thread.
Love and Light
Swannie

[Danustouch]

I'm not quite sure I get your point swannie...

"So I think many factions.....neo-pagans and femininsts and Jewish and Bhuddists and Hindus etc. all share in having suffered at the hands of the Church, not JUST women who I feel still suffer from the narrow minded approach to the status of women in the church ..... no women priestesses .. we just dont rate quite high enough to be the intercessor with GOD in that religion[This is MY OPINION OF THE SYSTEM NOT of anyones individual faith] so I think the concept of handing over whatver issues this writer sees as problematic still doesnt give anyone exclusive rights to have issues in this area. "

Could you help me out??????? I personally think that the author made a good point, about the colonial/precolonial witch trials. I don't think she was saying that this was the ONLY reason that people were put to death for suspicion of witchcraft..but that it is a contributing factor, which still goes unignored by too many people.

[Swanspirit]

"If Wiccans who
have usurpt "Never Again the Burning Times" as their own motto, offer it up to their
non-Wiccan sisters as a feminist battle cry, they will only be gaining allies in their fight
for acceptance. Thus, the truth about The Burning Times ultimately holds more power
for Wicca than the myth."
My point was ...... we cant just HAND IT OVER...... this part of history already belongs to all of us , and the fact that anyone was called a witche as an excuse for
persection cannot be divorced from the fact that some of the pagan women did was practice healing , divination, had herbal knowledge, etc etc , and the WORD then meant WISE ONE.
Also there were many, many, men involved,..... no one "USURPED" this motto, it came as response to persecution ( all the while christians were elevating people that died for "christian persection to sainthood whiole they continued to kill and burn people for not being christian) so there is no way that the "Motto " can be handed over...... to anyone becasue the basis for its existence is too broad in spectrum .
Does that clarify what I was saying??? It was late and I was tired last night when I wrote it :>
Love and HUGS
Swannie

[Myst]

Why are we so certain people who were killed and burnt and tortured etc. were all non-Witches? Or am I just misinterpreting your statements? It's certain that at least some (tho not at all all of them) were Witches/Healers/Diviners/etc..

Which isn't to say the reasoning mentioned in the article wasn't paramount in what happened, however it certainly can't be said to be the only reason, nor can it be said that it justifies the means ("oh well, it's not one religion persecuting another, we Pagans should just shush then").

[Danustouch]

Good point Willow....

I am not at all positive that "All" of the people who were burned in the various "witchunts" of Europe and America were non witches. However, in the case of the Salem witchunts, there are a few sites to be checked out. There are even some Geneology Rings for descendents of the Salem..."witches". I will try to provide you with these links. I think that it's pretty much accepted that the Salem Witch trials were more about landclaims and hysteria...and finding scapegoats, than actual allegations of witchcraft.

[Danustouch]

http://www.salemwitchtrials.com/
http://members.aol.com/WARLOCK92/
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/puritan/puritan.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2962/witch.html
http://etext.virginia.edu/salem/witchcraft/
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/witches1.html

These sites are just a drop in the bucket of all the info available. I'm currently researching them myself :) I forgot where I stored my pages about geneology/Salem...but...I'll post them when I find them. In the mean time...

THIS is DEFINATELY worth a read...Kinda Spooky...!!!!!!

http://search.aol.com/redirect.adp?appname=QBP&query=%5e%56%b0%ea%0d%c8%a9%fd%17%ce%ac%e1%05%b0%08%2b%93%ec%4e%a2%cf%0c%6e%a3%3e%c9%33%12%16%c1%dc% fe%23%e0%52%1b%ee%ee%7c%48%56%a2%f2%ed%71%4b%3d%c5%ae%40%ca%34%23%44%ee%75%01%a4%cf%14%ac%af%05%3a%3 9%2b%70%19%58%68%a7%ff%cd%fc%c5%dc%36%bd%8c%84%af%a1%ed%86%2d%91%99%be%0c%27%28%76%07%c5%b1%67%f8%db %a5%cb%73%7a%9b%6f%24%2f%6a%57%0a%c4%47%00%fb%ab%ba%01%36%f0%0f%47

[Danustouch]

eep..sorry..that one isn't working..HOLD ON!

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/features/97/salem/newintroframe.html

THIS should work!

[Tigerwallah]

There were many tests given to determine if one was a witch or not. These tests included saying the alphabet backwards and other moronic tests of no importance such as reciting "The Lord's Prayer without error. Sure there must have been some rumor to point the finger to the inquisition in your favor, but the evidence was inconclusive based on the tests alone.

Atheists, as well, were tried as witches. Actually, it was anyone who did not fit the mold of what a Christian should be. Therefor, a lot of non-witches were murdered along with those who were witches. Rumor and allegation had a lot of influence on who was tried. Want your neighbor's farm? Call him a witch and take it when he's gone. Land was a very big motivation for the witch hunts.

[story]

i remember sitting in the break room at work once when a breaking news story came on the tv. There was plane crash that killed over a hundred people. As customary, the newscaster pointed out that "no americans were killed"
the woman sitting next to me looked up and said "well thank god for that!", then returned to her romance novel.
I remember feeling a vien in my neck pulse. somehow, according to this woman and the newscaster, the non-amercian lives weren't as big of a deal.
my concern in the debate over who exactly was persecuted in the "burning times" is that pagans fdon't fall into this same trap. People were killed. Were they witches? Doesn't matter. People were killed. If 100% of the people killed were witches, if 0% were witches, it is still a profound tragedy.
I don't mean to say that there shouldn't be research into the details of the inquisition and the witch trials. But It disgusts me to see decent people resort to turning tragedy into a political weapon of some sort.

[beech]

Hi everyone, I just joined yesterday. This is a topic I've been thinking about recently.

Another aspect to this: I've just finished reading a book about the social climate in England during the time of the witch trials. The author has similar things to say about the methods and conclusions of Margeret Murray, but he does say that although most of the people prosecuted indeed considered themselves Christian, a small number were village 'cunning men and women'.

The interesting thing about this is that Pagan ways were openly practiced then, and only a few seemed to have a real problem with it. The cunning folk were only accused when they did or said something that was unpopular with the community. Another thing that is explored is that there wasn't widely a clear dichotomy between Christian and Pagan. People who practiced magick and other Pagan practices often considered themselves very much Christian, and as the author puts it, would be highly insulted at any 'aspersions' thrown on their religious faith.

-b

[Swanspirit]

Thank you for your comments they are most welcome and well researched :>, and based in some anthropological truth .
Christians to this day practice "pagan ways"
and would be highly incensed to think that there holidays are named after earlier pagan Goddesses or seasonal celebrations.
There is no "delineation" in time when people stopped practicing pagan ways and began practicing christian. Even that type of linear thinking is part of the dichotomous paradigm we have as our legacy.
Love and light
Swannie

[beech]

And I think story makes a very good point. I don't think remembering the dead should really be dependant on whether they were 'one of us' or not.

Plus, whether or not there may have been a 'secret witch cult' in existence, most of them were half-pagan at that stage anyway. As they are now. Dare you to go into your nearest christian church and shout: "Hands up who celebrates Hallowe'en!" And I don't know about the U.S., but in Ireland they still throw coins into water features in shopping malls and make a wish.

[beech]

Ooh hi Swanspirit! Just saw your reply now. Thank you. I just made your point again!

[Swanspirit]

no problem :> I enjoyed it :>
and I agree about Story's point as well, just didnt to say it yet, about the idea that the numbers or nationality of the people make a differnce in whether we mourn their deaths.........because I agree that it should make no difference.
What I usually say is .....it wouldnt have mattered how many were burned, hanged, drowned , etc if it were YOU being killed.
I dont know so much about the using tragedy as a political weapon part as much as the idea that the phrase works in debunking of the other myth ...... that the christians have no blood on their lily white hands , and they have this exclusive right to having been martyred and persecuted.
Also to raise the consciousness of people that think its ok to persececute and kill people based on their spiritual path , because it is still being done . The persectuion and lack of rights we know about here in this country .... and the burning and killing even attempted genocide , in Europe and Africa and other countries./*****
I thing "Never Again the Burning Times" is a useful slogan for many people, and that one group doesnt just own it.
It is a human legacy ....... unfortunately
Love and Light
Swannie

[Danustouch]

I do not think that the author was in any way diminishing the importance of the lives lost during the Burning Times. I think her point was that Pagans should have their facts straight about it, at least, before running around Claiming.."We Were Persecuted in Salem". Because some of the women and Men who were tried and murdered during these so called "witch hunts" would probably like their REAL stories told, for whatever reason. For instance, if you died of a gunshot to the head, and someone claimed it was a suicide, but indeed, you were murdered, you'd probably want that cleared up, too, wouldn't you? Or...had you been died from Cancer, and someone said you must have been a heavy smoker, and you'd lived all of your life as a strong ANTI smoker..you probably wouldn't appreciate that either, would you?? That's what I think the author is getting at, myself. It in no way diminishes the sadness of what happened back then, to learn the FACTS about who was killed for what. We can grieve them equally, witches, or non witches.

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
I thought the article was interesting.
It doesn't really matter to me if there were 30,000 or 2 million.It doesn't matter if they were all Witches or just a few were Witches,or none.
These people were accused of being Witches,and it led to their deaths.They were killed by Christians.So,I don't think the slogan is a bad thing to use,it helps keep us vigilant and on our toes.
And for some reason,I always think of Monty Python and those tests they gave to see if one was a Witch."What else floats?"
"A duck"
"So if she's a Witch,she'll weigh the same as a duck!"
"Burn her!"
:)
Peace and Love
BrightStar

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
Why are we so certain people who were killed and burnt and tortured etc. were all non-Witches? Or am I just misinterpreting your statements? It's certain that at least some (tho not at all all of them) were Witches/Healers/Diviners/etc..

I'm sure some of them were true wiccans. But I'll wager that far more were simple lunatics, street prophets, soap box preachers, and probably a few people who were hated and reviled just for being a bit mean and/or pecular. Probably quite a few homosexuals, too. Remember that back then, most insane people were assumed to be "posessed" by demons, so I'm sure that these individuals were classified as "witches" for the purpose of records kept that day and age.

The hallucenogen that was connected to the Salem witchcraft trials is called "Ergot". It is a type of mold that grows on certain types of rye, and the symptoms of Ergot poisoning match up with the symptoms of the afflicted girls in salem. A web search on Ergot + Salem will give you some good links on that.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with Neo-Pagans using the Burning Times as a rallying cry. The burning times symbolize hysterical mob oppression not against witches, but rather hysterical mob oppression in general... such events should be remembered. But don't assume for a minute that 40,000 "wiccans" died... the label "witch" was convieniantly applied to many others.

- Illuminatus!

[Danustouch]

Illuminatus...I'm never quite sure if it's just that you and I have COMPLETELY differen't ways of thinking..or whether you are simply following me around and trying to disagree with EVERYTHING I post, whether or NOT you really believe what you yourself are saying!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if you make oneeeeeeeeeeeeeee comment about how you are "Trying to make me think" .I swear!!!!!!!!!! STRAIGHT TO THE MOON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;) ;) ;) :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Sorry for the O.T..but I justttttttt had to say it!

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Illuminatus


I'm sure some of them were true wiccans. But I'll wager that far more were simple lunatics, street prophets, soap box preachers, and probably a few people who were hated and reviled just for being a bit mean and/or pecular. Probably quite a few homosexuals, too. Remember that back then, most insane people were assumed to be "posessed" by demons, so I'm sure that these individuals were classified as "witches" for the purpose of records kept that day and age.


- Illuminatus!

Lunatics? Give me a break. How about anyone who did not fit into the Christian ideal? Or, victims of greed? BTW, the mold did not effect the accused of the Salem trials. It effected the accusors who believed that those they accused "worked magic" on them.

[Danustouch]

And..btw..i'm sorry..but I have to point THIS out..too. In another thread, dealing with persecution of another sort (namely, that done to Native Americans)..you very staunchly claim that Native American Peoples should "Get over it" and "Quit Whining about the past"...yet...here is another issue..where you are claiming people SHOULDN'T stop using it as a rallying cry. What gives Illuminatus?

[Myst]

Well they aren't really comparable, D. The native americans complain they were persecuted for their ways, and they were. The burning times, evidently, happened largely because of people who wanted to get rid of people, whether they were Witches or not. Saying "oh they worship Satan" was just a convenient excuse to get rid of people who had land they wanted, or were strange or different. I think you could compare them if in the case of the natives most of them were persecuted for being native when they weren't. I'm sure Illy has reasoning beyond that.

I think, Tiger, he said "But I'll wager that far more were simple lunatics, street prophets, soap box preachers, and probably a few people who were hated and reviled just for being a bit mean and/or pecular. Probably quite a few homosexuals, too", thus including people who were just "peculiar", ie. not fitting Christian ideals.

I think it started out with persecuting Witches. Then people's greed and anger turned it into persecuting anyone different. The root cause was still the same, regardless. It began as persecution against the Old Religion. Yes, people should be aware that it became a thing of human greed mutated from the original intent of exterminating a religion, but even so the original intent was the same. Probably thus another reason why using that statement can be construed as a positive thing - in the beginning it was about persecuting Witches, and that can't happen again.

[Tigerwallah]

In Zambia, people are being tried and executed for being "witches." Unfortunately, history continues to repeat itself.

[Myst]

Ok, shouldn't be happening. :)

And if I had any control over what happens in Zambia...(wth is that anyway?)

[Tigerwallah]

As I'm looking to find the article I read about the incident, I'm unfortunately finding that it is very common around the world. We think we are safe here, but maybe it's just over confidence. Afterall, those boys in Arkansas were convicted of murder based on their appearance and that the leader practiced Wicca, alone. That was listed here amongst "Witch Hunts."

This is from India
http://www.cnn.com/virtual/editions/europe/2000/roof/change.pop/frameset.exclude.html

This is from Zambia - witch hunting mobs have killed over 20000 old folks accused of witchcraft.
http://www.mg.co.za/mg/news/99jun1/14jun-tanzania_witch.html

I gotta get to work. More to come.

[Earth Walker]

That's scary. :ghost: Massive Paranoia :woah: :bug: :ahhhh:

[Tigerwallah]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
Well they aren't really comparable, D. The native americans complain they were persecuted for their ways, and they were. The burning times, evidently, happened largely because of people who wanted to get rid of people, whether they were Witches or not. Saying "oh they worship Satan" was just a convenient excuse to get rid of people who had land they wanted, or were strange or different. I think you could compare them if in the case of the natives most of them were persecuted for being native when they weren't. I'm sure Illy has reasoning beyond that.

I think, Tiger, he said "But I'll wager that far more were simple lunatics, street prophets, soap box preachers, and probably a few people who were hated and reviled just for being a bit mean and/or pecular. Probably quite a few homosexuals, too", thus including people who were just "peculiar", ie. not fitting Christian ideals.

I think it started out with persecuting Witches. Then people's greed and anger turned it into persecuting anyone different. The root cause was still the same, regardless. It began as persecution against the Old Religion. Yes, people should be aware that it became a thing of human greed mutated from the original intent of exterminating a religion, but even so the original intent was the same. Probably thus another reason why using that statement can be construed as a positive thing - in the beginning it was about persecuting Witches, and that can't happen again.

Willow, a very real reason for the near genocide of the Native Americans was quite simply that the newcomers wanted the land. So, actually, I think, in a way they are very similar.

[Swanspirit]

Distribution of medication for AIDS victims in Africa again???????? again???
Love and light
Swannie

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah


Lunatics? Give me a break. How about anyone who did not fit into the Christian ideal? Or, victims of greed? BTW, the mold did not effect the accused of the Salem trials. It effected the accusors who believed that those they accused "worked magic" on them.

Well, Lunatics was a very broad category back then! It was used as a label for anyone who was different than the norm. So yes, certainly it would include those groups you mentioned.

When did I say the mold affected the accused? Oh, because I said "victims"... well I guess there were two groups of victims, the girls who got the poisoning, and the people who were blamed for it. People forget that the Salem witch trials were largely retaliatory -- striking back for what was assumed (incorrectly) to be a magical attack, when it was really poisoned grain at the heart of their troubles.

- Ill

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Danustouch
And..btw..i'm sorry..but I have to point THIS out..too. In another thread, dealing with persecution of another sort (namely, that done to Native Americans)..you very staunchly claim that Native American Peoples should "Get over it" and "Quit Whining about the past"...yet...here is another issue..where you are claiming people SHOULDN'T stop using it as a rallying cry. What gives Illuminatus?


I think Pagans should feel free to use the burning times as a rallying cry. It's good to make people remember the evil that intolerance can cause. Even if EVERY SINGLE PERSON who was killed in a witch hunt wasn't what you and I would call a Witch, well, what does that matter. Remember that "Witch Hunt" has become a colloquialism today, a blanket term for ANY unjust or mob-type of hysterical lynchings. Speaking out against this type of injustice is a good thing. Just don't make the error of speaking out against ONLY anti-witch injustice; that's not historicly accurate. Use the burning times example to speak out against ALL social injustice.

- Ill.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
Ok, shouldn't be happening. :)

And if I had any control over what happens in Zambia...(wth is that anyway?)

<sarcasm>
I KNOW let's sever all trade relations with them. THAT'LL keep them from killing witches. Hmph!
</sarcasm>

- Ill

[Danustouch]

*BUMP*

For Adia.

[Ganga]

Witchhunts must have been an effective way to "keep women in their place" and mass-hysteria is never too difficult to stir (just remembering the "communist"-hunts). Still, it baffles me that there were countries (well, one country at least - Finland) where more men were burned as witches (or "witches", whatever the case was) than women.

[Phoenix Blue]

I think, all things being equal, I'd rather use present-day social injustice as a rallying cry for other present-day social injustice. It requires a lot less divulgence of background information.

Illuminatus, you mentioned you were sure "some wiccans" were killed during the burning times; but to my recollection, Wicca wasn't around until 1952. Can you explain?

[Phoenix Blue]

One other thing: "Witch" means something completely different to the rest of the world than it means to Wiccans and Pagans. Whenever you read about "witch hunts" or "witch trials," that's a handy note to keep in mind. **Grins**

[kblackthorne]

Exactly, Phoenix Blue.

A "witch" was defined as someone who had sold their soul to the devil in exchange for the power to work magical harm against others. They had signed their name in blood on the contract, and kissed the devil's arse. (Or sometimes his prick, which was ice-cold.)

And as Wicca was conceived in the late 1940's & born in the early 1950's (I think you might be late by a year, Phoenix? And a case CAN be made for 1949, though not really for any earlier...) they obviously weren't Wiccans.

Were they Pagans? Even that is doubtful.

Were they victims of the same sorts of hysteria as the Jews in WWII Germany, liberals ("Comunists") in McCarthy Era US, and various other groups that have been persecuted this century? Yes. Undoubtedly.

[Myst]

As far as when Wicca was, etc. it was probably concieved in the 40's and made popular in the US in the 50's (if I recall correctly, my source's site is currently down).

But I think at this point it's splitting hairs as to who was Wiccan or Witch etc. I can speak for Ill when I say he probably accidentally used the wrong term. I think he's still made his point, regardless - no doubt not all who were killed were Pagan (or Witches, by what it means now or what it means then, really) but I'm sure many were.

[kblackthorne]

but I'm sure many were.

What do you base this on? Why are you sure? What is your source of information on this?