Wicca = Celtic

[MorningDove030202]

Ok, this is somewhat of a rant, but more like a constructive criticism.....

Why does Wicca in some places still mean Celtic? Why is it that I can NEVER find any Greek religious stuff beyond Pan, Artimis, and the occational Aphrodite image?

When will the shops catch on that Wicca is more than Celtic and Egypian???

Are you tired of Wicca=Celtic? I am!

Dove

[The High Queen of Faerie]

Ok, this is somewhat of a rant, but more like a constructive criticism.....

Why does Wicca in some places still mean Celtic? Why is it that I can NEVER find any Greek religious stuff beyond Pan, Artimis, and the occational Aphrodite image?

When will the shops catch on that Wicca is more than Celtic and Egypian???

Are you tired of Wicca=Celtic? I am!

Dove
IAMTOO.

especially since i'm very greek-oriented in the way i work... and all i can ever find in wicca books is stuff about ceridwen and the morrigan and etc :x

wee bit frustrating aye? ;)

[MorningDove030202]

Ya, and like there is a Celtic Magick book and a Norse Magick book, but did LLewellen create a Greek Magic book.... not to my knowldege! GRRRRRR Not all of us Greek oriented people are Recons! Some of us are still very much Wiccan....

Dove

[SilentDreams]

Well I can't blame the stores for selling what will make the bigger profit, thats the whole point of owning a store. But I totally agree. I mean I'm not saying wicca should be considered less so we can have what we want but maybe just supply for everyone equaly. At least for me its not Wicca=Celtic, its Wicca=Paganism and I'm sick of it!

[MorningDove030202]

Well I can't blame the stores for selling what will make the bigger profit, thats the whole point of owning a store. But I totally agree. I mean I'm not saying wicca should be considered less so we can have what we want but maybe just supply for everyone equaly. At least for me its not Wicca=Celtic, its Wicca=Paganism and I'm sick of it!

True, they do have to stock what sells.... I just don't understand why the greek stuff isn't just as popular as the celtic... I guess it just isn't.

IMHO:
I think the ideas that all Pagans are Wiccan is obviously not reality, but Wicca has the most books out there and it sells...so i guess we are back to the "what sells" theory.

I think if more books were being published about how to be Recon, or how to be a Druid, or how to be a "Non Witchy Pagan" it would help stop that perception that all Paganism is Wicca. I think that most "non Witchy Pagans" still find Wicca first and then discover their actual path, and if a few realy good books were published on "Pagan but not Witchy" topics, maybe fewer would start their path with Wicca, and the line would be more distinct between the two.

I'm also under the impression that most "non witchy Pagans" arn't comfortable with creating the "Solitary Practice" that Wicca has. So, I think we are kinda stuck with the "Wicca is Paganism, Paganism is Wicca" sterotype for awhilie... until the books are published that make other forms of paganism easily replicatable by one person all by them selves....

Dove

[Morr]

ummmm..
maybe because the Wiccan wheel of the year is based on... CELTIC HOLIDAYS?
the 4 major sabbats are 4 MAJOR holidays to the Celts, and are originally CELTIC sabbats.

the greeks never celebrated these specific sabbats.
if you want more greek, try hellenistic Wicca, or recon.

[Elfa Wylde]

Ok, this is somewhat of a rant, but more like a constructive criticism.....

Why does Wicca in some places still mean Celtic? Why is it that I can NEVER find any Greek religious stuff beyond Pan, Artimis, and the occational Aphrodite image?

When will the shops catch on that Wicca is more than Celtic and Egypian???

Are you tired of Wicca=Celtic? I am!

Dove


That's odd.. When I first started in Paganism, I studied Wicca.... and almost everything I found was either Egyptian or German.... I was told by many Wiccans, that there were Celtic Pantheons, but I had a terrible time finding out anything.

Eventually, I did find the Celtic Pantheons, and other information too.
I reread the above posts... and what does it really matter if there are no books?
There's not all that much written on Druidism either... I think i've foiund what... four books... so? :eyebrow: Find a Greek (or native american, or Celtic, or African, or Egyptian) pantheon and figure out a way to fit them into Wicca. Then... WRITE THE BOOK!! _happydanc Who says you can't be the "first" to write a Greek Pantheoned Wiccan book? Just do it. I'd even buy it just because one of the MWs wrote it!! Go for it! I just nkow it would be great!!

By the way....
I've never thought of wicca = celtic. I usually think: Druid = celtic. Well.. just putting in my two cents.

[MorningDove030202]

ummmm..
maybe because the Wiccan wheel of the year is based on... CELTIC HOLIDAYS?
the 4 major sabbats are 4 MAJOR holidays to the Celts, and are originally CELTIC sabbats.

the greeks never celebrated these specific sabbats.
if you want more greek, try hellenistic Wicca, or recon.

You right about the holidays being Celtic and that is probably part of the reason why the sterotype exists, but even though I understand their orgins, I feel that the Wiccan holidays are now "just Wiccan" (that is if you are celbrating them in a Wiccan way) and do not have to be celbrated in a Celtic fastion or with Celtic Gods.

Dove

[Calen]

The book I'm reading right now has chapters for Gods and Goddesses, and one of the two main examples they use for the God is Dionysus, who is Greek. It's true that a lot of stuff about about Wicca is bent more towards Celtic than anything else, but then, wasn't Gardener British? And yeah, the Sabbats definitely contributed.
If you are more into the Greek panetheon, then yes, by all means incorporate that into your ritual, or what have you. I'm sure there's plenty of information on correspondances on the net, if you can't find them in books. And yeah...if you can't find something in a book, write it yourself! :)

[MorningDove030202]

The book I'm reading right now has chapters for Gods and Goddesses, and one of the two main examples they use for the God is Dionysus, who is Greek. It's true that a lot of stuff about about Wicca is bent more towards Celtic than anything else, but then, wasn't Gardener British? And yeah, the Sabbats definitely contributed.
If you are more into the Greek panetheon, then yes, by all means incorporate that into your ritual, or what have you. I'm sure there's plenty of information on correspondances on the net, if you can't find them in books. And yeah...if you can't find something in a book, write it yourself! :)

It's not about my practice, it's about the "stuff" for sale....It's realy hard to find Greek Stuff!

Dove

[ap Dafydd]

I don't think that anyone _does_ equate Wiccan and Celtic!

Certainly Wicca does draw on some Celtic elements (originating in the British Isles, it would be surprising if it didn't) but there's a huge world of difference between Wiccans and CR/CT followers.

Likewise, many people following Celtic paths would engage with the Wiccan influences that underlie a lot of general Paganism.

But the two being the same, definitely not!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[-Ember]

Warning: yes, this is a rant. :rant: It is not directed at anyone in particular.

Yes, it is a horrible shame. Celtic path wiccans get to have new-age-fluff-wicca interpretations of their mythology (to the point that it is difficult to find anything that hasn't been touched by it, even in more academic works), and Greek and Egyptian ones don't, poor things.....

There is much available about Greek and Egyptian divinity and religion (and recon or not, reading a few academic books isn't going to hurt). There is comparatively very little that is known about the celts. I really believe there are so many books availible on the celts in craft stores because it is easier to make it up... fewer people to call foul, less ability to prove that it is full of it. You WANT a book like Llewyllens "Celtic Magic" or "Norse Magic"? You are actually jealous that there is so much misinformation, fluffed up fad information that isn't cluttering your own path? You think it actually is something to envy?!! :eyebrow:

What is it you want the books to do? Teach you about the divinities? Get a few good mythological collections and you'll have that (as much as books can give you). Teach you how to use them in wicca-style magic? Really look at wicca-style magic then... don't just follow some book by rote... and learn to adapt. Look to a few of the older authors too... for example the Farrars' books (is it "Witch's God" and "Witch's Goddess"... something like that) are hardly mostly Celtic. The older authors weren't in the Celtic fad. They were in other fads, with other information available.

[MorningDove030202]

I have a minor in history haven taking classes at Salisbury Univeristy on world mythology, world religions, ancient Greece, and Ancient Egypt.

I'd like to see some books on a Greek practice of Wicca and I haven't found any.

If you arn't ranting at anyone in particular why are you saying "You"?

Dove

[-Ember]

If you arn't raning at anyone in particular why are you saying "You"?

The general plural abstract "you"... whoever the shoe fits.

[Haruka2077]

I always thought it was funny when reading books on "Celtic Wicca" that were using Greco-Roman dieties in invocations, etc! But, not being particularly drawn to that system, I have to say it hasn't bothered me much.

One book I can recommend for you is Classical Living: Reconnecting with the Rituals of Ancient Rome by Frances Bernstein. There's good information in there about Roman holidays and how to celebrate them today. It appears to be out of print, but Amazon.com has quite a few used copies (I think that's where I got mine).
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062516248/qid=1096756135/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-9586750-7710314?v=glance&s=books

Hope that helps a little bit with your frustration! :artist:

[Seren_]

I think in part that any idea of Wicca being Celtic came from the fact that it was/is supposed to be the religion of "our people" (ie in Britain, Gardner being British and claiming to be practising his native religion that was forced underground, if you get me).

This is certainly something that I was taught in my early days of Wiccan training from certain people (non-traditional and non-oath, I'd hasten to add)...and then when I was searching for a coven, to the point where I wasn't allowed to join a particular group because I didn't have the right accent (I wasn't born in the right place...not Celtic enough). Bu then, this is not to say that there are Wiccans out there, in my personal experience, that believe Wicca=Celtic - in fact, most I've encountered wouldn't at all.

The logical conclusion for some, especially based in Gardner's time when Stonehenge was still popularly believed to have been built by the druids, was that Wicca must have been Celtic in origin, or at least largely influenced. In his Meaning of Witchcraft, he even has a chapter about druids and says "I am often asked, 'Where do the druids come in?' "

But I'd hasten to add that Gardner takes a much more universal view in his idea of witchcraft (in his writings anyway), but I do think that a lot of people have taken the "Olde Religion" idea to an extreme...something which is still popular in my neck of the woods, with or without Gardner or Wicca in general. In this respect, why would Greek gods come into it in a more conservative view? (Not that I'm saying they shouldn't...)

Yes, four of the eight Sabbats are based on Celtic festivals - but four others aren't - but this does not mean that Wicca as a whole is Celtic or conclusively not...most Wiccans are quite aware of this. Some do still try and fit a square peg into a round hole, but I guess a lot of the traditionalists would question them as well.

In a more commercial/popular sense (for wont of a better phrase), there is the idea of the "Cardiac Celts". These are people who identify with the Celts (mostly the Irish "Golden Age", it has to be said), but don't necessarily share anything culturally with them. This isn't specifically a Wiccan sense, but as a Wiccan style of practise - Celtic Wicca, and the proliferation of Wiccanesque books - is so popular, these days it has become a popular turn of phrase by a lot of more conservative Celticists, implying Wiccan-style "Celtic practise"...In short, Wiccan style Celtic books sell, whereas others might not so much...

The full article can be found in Paganism Today, edited by Graham Harvey and Charlotte Hardman. I think it has a lot to do with a romanticism of the Celts, rather than other cultures (ie Greek) being ignored. "Celts" sell more than "Greek" in the western world.

[Ron]

Wuh... yeah. In the early days of Gardner it was considered very "Celtic" - maybe that's why those books are still Celtic oriented.

[Ron]

Ya, and like there is a Celtic Magick book and a Norse Magick book, but did LLewellen create a Greek Magic book.... not to my knowldege! GRRRRRR Not all of us Greek oriented people are Recons! Some of us are still very much Wiccan....

Dove
Maybe that's cause Llwyellen is interested in the superior races.... lol JK... Actually that was just a pathetic attempt to make Celts seem greater than they are.. lol I'll shutup now.

[Gede]

MM~
I voted other because I've noticed the trend but it doesn't really shit me off, as I know that a minimal percentage of Wiccan practice is actually derived from Celtic origins etc., however I do respect that some of its beliefs descend from pan-Celtic spirituality. As I do not identify as Wiccan and have no particular interest, beyond the average, in Celtic things, I've never really come to the crossroads with the situation. If someone is looking for a specific pantheon, but is still comfortable practicing Wicca in its context, then there's not much else you can do other than jumping straight into the combination. Start your invocations, pathworkings, meditations, aspecting rites etc. and through Wiccan Ritual you will begin to grow closer to your desired pantheon, it's really just a case of "fill-in-the-blank".

Namaste, Gede...

[Loopaleigh]

One book I can recommend for you is Classical Living: Reconnecting with the Rituals of Ancient Rome by Frances Bernstein.



This book is excellent. I picked it up at a B & N in there clearence/remainders area. Although this was a few years ago. Also try this website. www.bizrate.com

[-Ember]

I just wish that the connection wasn't so strong that it is hard to find much that is readily availible on celtic practices that hasn't been twisted in a wicca-esque direction. Even fantasy novels, popular myth collections... unless you really go academic, and even then sometimes.

[Tangerines]

Face it: Celtic culture sells. It's just a tried and true that if it has 'Celtic' or 'Irish' or 'Scottish' on the spine, it's going to get sold. And, frankly, yes, I'm sick of the connection. The word's not even from a Celtic language. It's from a Germanic one and, proximity aside, there's lots of cultural differences there (heck, there's lots of differences from one Celtic ethnic group to the next).

[Tangerines]

unless you really go academic, and even then sometimes.

Not real academic if it's wrong, right? ;)

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

This thread got me thinking about this article:

Why Wicca Isn't Celtic by Iain MacAnTsaoir and Dawn O'Laoghaire (http://www.davensjournal.com/index.htm?WWiNC.xhtml&2)

(link courtesy Daven's Journal, an excellent site!)

Sorry I can't give you any recommendations, but you have my sympathy!

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[MorningDove030202]

This thread got me thinking about this article:

Why Wicca Isn't Celtic by Iain MacAnTsaoir and Dawn O'Laoghaire (http://www.davensjournal.com/index.htm?WWiNC.xhtml&2)

(link courtesy Daven's Journal, an excellent site!)

Sorry I can't give you any recommendations, but you have my sympathy!

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon


Oh that was facinating! Thanks for the excellent article. I think I'm going to share it with "new pagans" on an elist I run.

Dove

[fireswimmer]

I tend to agree with the people who suggest looking at academic sources. I have never been one to practice from a book. I am not a ritualistic person. I am putting together a renewal of vows for my tenth anniversary. I have learned some things from standing in other people's handfastings or rituals, and other aspects are going to be there because I feel they should be.

Celtic sells, but I have lost my faith in many recent authors. I hate the way that newer authors are attempting to rewrite history for the new age section. For example, I have been told by several people well read, in the new age section, that Celts were peaceful people. Hmmm... are we taling about my ancestors here?

I do nto identify with Celtic, Scottish, or Wiccan ideals. I follow a modern day Mayan path and I know what goes into researching it. I have one Lewellyn book that I have never been able to finish and many many pages of printed out articles, and printouts from a museum tour that is on line.

My opinion is fairly simple, why simply take other people's guesses when I can work with the spirits and make the ones that are right for me? When research does come into play it is not always of the stritly spiritual nature for me. A lot of the time it is about life because I hate when books take a culture and separate out the different parts of life so they can discuss one or two. The wondrous thing about being pagan is that it infuses every part of life, every aspect, thought and deed.

Eek, I guess this was a rant.
Fireswimmer

[MorningDove030202]

I tend to agree with the people who suggest looking at academic sources. I have never been one to practice from a book. I am not a ritualistic person. I am putting together a renewal of vows for my tenth anniversary. I have learned some things from standing in other people's handfastings or rituals, and other aspects are going to be there because I feel they should be.

Celtic sells, but I have lost my faith in many recent authors. I hate the way that newer authors are attempting to rewrite history for the new age section. For example, I have been told by several people well read, in the new age section, that Celts were peaceful people. Hmmm... are we taling about my ancestors here?

I do nto identify with Celtic, Scottish, or Wiccan ideals. I follow a modern day Mayan path and I know what goes into researching it. I have one Lewellyn book that I have never been able to finish and many many pages of printed out articles, and printouts from a museum tour that is on line.

My opinion is fairly simple, why simply take other people's guesses when I can work with the spirits and make the ones that are right for me? When research does come into play it is not always of the stritly spiritual nature for me. A lot of the time it is about life because I hate when books take a culture and separate out the different parts of life so they can discuss one or two. The wondrous thing about being pagan is that it infuses every part of life, every aspect, thought and deed.

Eek, I guess this was a rant.
Fireswimmer

Not all of us have "the spirits" as a source.... We arn't all equaly skilled in metaphysical sources of information....

Dove

[goDez]

I don't like it if people state or insinuate (right word? rofl..) that wicca is ONLY Celtic. I mean, there are people that fill their Trad in with Celtic Deities and other influences, but Wicca is per definition NOT Celtic. It can be all kinds of stuff.
But I think it really sucks to say that Wicca = "Fill in your classic religion thing here". Because that is not the point. Its NOT about what people fill in THEIR trad..

Wicca=Wicca. Period.
*Wicca Trad X* = *Influenced by Classic Religion X*
The above CAN be true tho..

[-Sky-]

I agree that Wicca has many Celtic Elements and it widely considered Celtic but it doesn't bother me since i follow both a greek and celtic path.I'm very happy many things about the Celtic Tradtion can be found and since I live in Greece I can find many things on Greek deities.But I think it is shame that people from other countries that have a greek-oriented path can't find a lot of the Greek deities.
eg I was looking for a book on Artemis in amazon and I didn't find a single one to my dissapointement,
~Anna

[-Ember]

Not real academic if it's wrong, right? ;)

But if I get that picky, I lose all of my books!!! :wah:

More seriously, it is not uncommon to find in general consumption (not-aimed at neo-pagans) and books purporting to be more academic works that have been heavily influenced by Wicca. And that is annoying.

[fay]

you dont seem to have an option on the poll to say no. or is it the "I have no clue what you are talking about. " ?
blessed be

[MorningDove030202]

you dont seem to have an option on the poll to say no. or is it the "I have no clue what you are talking about. " ?
blessed be

That would be one kind of no, the other no would be that Duh, wicca is celtic option....

Dove

[Raivynne]

Actually I find it a lot harder to find good and accurate things on the Celts than I do on the Greeks. There is a ton more information on the Greeks and Romans, than there is on the Celts. And most of what I can find on the Celts, is fluff stuff. You can go to almost any library and find accurate information on the Greeks/Romans. I don't see a lot of statuary that's Celtic. I see mostly Egyptian. So I don't really see the Wicca=Celtic connection.

[fireswimmer]

A comment for people that are looking for material to study. School libraries are a great source of information, and they have more than books. I am not sure if local libraries have the same resources. Sorry, I know that college libraries are public if it is a public school, and I utilize those a lot. When you start doing the type of research that you do for research papers new worlds open up to you. In my library I go to the home page and I click on the option for full text and citation. After that I pick Academic ASA (I think that the second word is ASA but I know the first word is Academic), and then I start searching. At the bottoms of the articles there are options for related articles by different topics. I end up with some references that I am used to like national geographic and some that I am not terribly used to. The journals are a fabulous resource and typically well researched. I read through them and decide if I want to print them out or not. Many have pictures. I print there in black and white but I know that there is a way to link to it from home if you want color copies.

Just thought that I would add this. It can be helpful for those who do not have the budget for a great deal of books, and for those who have a hard time finding books. You just have to be willing to play with your searches.

Fireswimmer

[Loopaleigh]

For MorningDove030202 who is looking for stuff Greek....
The Olympus Tarot. This deck is by Lo Scarabeo. Uses the greek gods and goddesses from classical mythology. Nice artwork.
Olympus by Murry Hope. This is more like an Oracle deck. Uses greek myths, legends, and Jungian Psychology. This deck is old though and I haven't seen it for sale in awhile. Might be OoP.

[MorningDove030202]

For MorningDove030202 who is looking for stuff Greek....
The Olympus Tarot. This deck is by Lo Scarabeo. Uses the greek gods and goddesses from classical mythology. Nice artwork.
Olympus by Murry Hope. This is more like an Oracle deck. Uses greek myths, legends, and Jungian Psychology. This deck is old though and I haven't seen it for sale in awhile. Might be OoP.


Oooohhhh I like the Olympus Tarot, but I couldn't find actual pictures of the Olympus Oracle cards by M. Hope. The Tarot deck is fortunatly still in print!

Thanks for the tip!

Dove

[Ron]

There is a toad on the road.

[WhiteDragon]

What I am sick of are people always thiking that just becuase I am a Pagan that I am a Wiccan! :uzi: I have nothing against the Wiccan path, but I am tired of having to explain that I am not lol.

Anyone else know what i am trying to say? hmmm?

[Reginleif]

What I am sick of are people always thiking that just becuase I am a Pagan that I am a Wiccan! :uzi: I have nothing against the Wiccan path, but I am tired of having to explain that I am not lol.

Anyone else know what i am trying to say? hmmm?

I do lol. It annoys me when somebody finds out that I'm Pagan (which isn't often) and figures that I'm Wiccan, though I can't blame them for their ignorance. Wicca is possibly the most well-known path in Paganism, and unless theology is their thing, they're not going to be looking up and researching any religions. I basically just correct them and (if they ask) explain what my path is, which doesn't bother me.

[Seren_]

I do lol. It annoys me when somebody finds out that I'm Pagan (which isn't often) and figures that I'm Wiccan, though I can't blame them for their ignorance.

Most people I meet have no idea what either is and just tell me I'm going to hell.

[Rubber_Piggy]

It's not about my practice, it's about the "stuff" for sale....It's realy hard to find Greek Stuff!

Dove

Do you mean say, "Greek Wicca" books?? Is there a reason you can't just buy books on greek mythology/mystisism/religious practices (available at any good book store).

[MorningDove030202]

Do you mean say, "Greek Wicca" books?? Is there a reason you can't just buy books on greek mythology/mystisism/religious practices (available at any good book store).

Yes, it's becuase they don't have anything to do with Greek and Wicca... I want the "And Wicca". I have lots of mythology books from college, from my minor in history. In other words I'd like to see a book on Wicca that exclusivly focues on the Greek Panthenon, and fits the Wheel of the Year to Greek Gods, and ways to make Wiccan Ritual a tad more Greek flavored.

Dove

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Personally I don't know how one could really make the Wheel of the Year fit the Greek gods as it based on an amilgation of Celtic and Norse practices/festivals and you can't just blend a completely different set of gods and their myths into another system.

[MorningDove030202]

Personally I don't know how one could really make the Wheel of the Year fit the Greek gods as it based on an amilgation of Celtic and Norse practices/festivals and you can't just blend a completely different set of gods and their myths into another system.



I kinda see your point, however I tend to see the 8 Wiccan holidays as a reflection of nature, of the turning of the seasons which is kind of Universal. I don't, for example, worship Brigid on Imbolc. It's more of a seasonal thing. Like I don't worship Lugh on Lunasadh (sp?). I focus not on the celtic mythology but see it as more earth based. Having the 8 dates evenly spaced out creating a wheel of the year that honors the earth's cycles and reflecting the light half, the dark half make sence to me. I don't think I could make historical Greek festivals fit the 8 Wiccan holidays, but I do think I could relate a Greek God or a particular myth to a holiday that reflects the universal theme of that holiday.

Also, in Correllian Wicca, we belive in many names for the Gods, not just the Celtic ones, it doesn't realy matter what names we use or which myths we use. It's not like the Greek Panthnon and myths are some other "system". It's all part of the same thing.

Dove

[Lady Jessi]

First , may I ask what your definition of "Wicca" is? Are you looking for the magical , the spiritual or what? When ever I started searches, all I could find was Roman and Greek Mythology, when I relally wanted to research my german, and dutch background. Now , from the many places I have looked, I realize they are very much intermingled, and I have to dig to seperate the one from the others.

Second, here is just one article I found on the subject while looking form something else called "What is Wicca"


The name Celt originated with the ancient Greeks, who called the barbarian peoples of central Europe Keltoi. Rather that being a broad cultural genetic 'race,' the Celts were a broad cultural-linguistic group. The area where they lived became a constantly changing collection of tribal 'nations.' The Celts were never an 'empire' ruled by one government.

The ancestors of the Celts were the people of the Urnfield culture, so-called because they buried their dead in cremation urns in flat ground. Between 1200 and 700 BC, they spread westward from their eastern European homeland into the area of modern Austria, Germany, Switzerland, and France. Here, there culture developed into a recognizably Celtic form. The earliest stage of Celtic culture is called the Hallstatt, after a village in the Austrian Salzkammergut where archeologists discovered important artifacts. At hallstatt and other places with the 'hall' (salt) name - Hallein, Helle, Schwabisch Hall - the Celts' wealth was based upon salt extraction and sale. The technology of iron, too, was embraced by innovative Celtic blacksmiths, who produced the best metal in Europe, that was in great demand outside Celtic Areas. An important two-way trade developed between the Celts and the Greeks, both in their homeland, and their colonies inwhat is now southern France.

By the seventh century BC, the Hallstatt people had become prosperous in the salt and iron businesses. In around 650 BC, the Celts began to re-exchange raids with the Greeks and Etruscans, elements of whose culture they adopted. By adding and adapting Graeco-Etruscan elements to the Hallstatt culture, the characteristically Celtic style of art came into being. As a result of this, in northeastern France, Switzerland, and the middle Rhine, a new stage of Celtic development took place.

Archeologists call it the early La Tene period, after the definitive artifacts found at La Tene, on Lake Neuchatel in Switzerland. During the Classical period of Greece and Rome, Celtic culture was predominant north of the Alps. Celtic technicians of the La Tene period were technically superior to their Greek and Roman counterparts. Their superior weaponry, including a new type of sword, chain mail, and chariots, enabled the Celts to mount miliatary expiditions against neighboring tribes and nations, including the Greeks and Romans. Celtic fighting men had such a good reputation that they were in great demand as mercenareis. The warrior culture was at the heart of Celtic society, as the heroic sagas of ancient Ireland record.



From: http://www.joellessacredgrove.com/Celtic/history.html#history
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, from this , I gathered that Celtic is intertwined with the Greek and Roman mythiology, therefore, many of it's pantheons are intertwined. I resently had gotten frustrated about the gods and goddesses all being either roman or greek, so I started my own search, the book that is helping me is The Everyday Lives of Pagan Celts"
(by Anne Ross), and the Who's Who in Mythology (by Micheal Senior) . I liked this second one because the arthor broke things down to origins like Celtic Irish, or Scandinavian, , Roman Greek , and so on. I found it at the library. If it is just the gods/goddesses you are serching for, this book may help. As for defining Roman or Greek Wicca, that will have to come from you , since Wicca seems to be defined mainly by the person practicing it.I know , I have found aleast 10 different veiws on what wicca is and how to practice it. Wicca is a Religion of less than 200 years (from my on going research), and is ever changing with the times.To some the word wicca is interchangable with witchcraft, to some it is not. It does seem to be a more pacifist in style, and Romans and Greeks were anything but passive. (imo) Nor were the Celts.

Since the article I am looking for is not to be found, (yet) I will close this post/reply

Lady J

[MorningDove030202]

I'm looking for magickal and spirtual... I have a tradition, I'm a student of Correllian Wicca, but it's an eclectic tradition and I happen to relate to and have studied Greek mythology the most. The Celtic myths don't "do it" for me. I wish there were more Wiccan supplies that had a Greek motif (sp?).

Dove

[Kadynas]

Yes, it's becuase they don't have anything to do with Greek and Wicca... I want the "And Wicca". I have lots of mythology books from college, from my minor in history. In other words I'd like to see a book on Wicca that exclusivly focues on the Greek Panthenon, and fits the Wheel of the Year to Greek Gods, and ways to make Wiccan Ritual a tad more Greek flavored.

Dove
To me, it's kinda just second nature... Think of what the sabbats are symbolizing... Beltaine=the sacred marriage. You could honor Aphrodite here, or Eros and Psyche, or Hera and Zeus. Yule=rebirth of the Sun, could be used to honor Apollo. And the /entire/ Wheel of the Year could be fitted to the myth of Persephone/Ceres/Hades quite easily...

As far as books go, try to find "Old Stones, New Temples", "Mysteries of Demeter" and "Greek Religion"... some of these might be out of print, but Amazon most likely has them for sale as used. Also there is "The Magick Circle" by Maria Kay Simms, and while it's not "Greek" per se, it's based on celebrating Wicca through astrology, which uses the Greco-Roman pantheon.

I think the reason that the Greeks have been so "ignored" by modern Wicca merchandisers is that so much of their culture is still known enough to be researched. I am a Hellenic Wiccan myself, and I fit the Wiccan celebrations to the Greeks (rather than vice versa). Once you reduce the celebrations to their symbolic roots, it almost becomes self-explanatory. :) Then you could also go and research the actual Greek holidays, like which days of the month or year are sacred to what deity. It can be confusing as their calendar is set up differently than ours, but it's worth checking out. :)

The only place I really feel the lack is in jewelry and statues and such... I mean, sure I can find a statue of Apollo if I want to pay $200 bucks for a museum reproduction. But the New-Agey shops that sell altar statues rarely have the ones I would want or a variety of different statues for a particular deity. Quite frankly there are some statues of Athene that I don't feel do her justice! :lol: And some of them come in the worst colors! I would also like to see more "Greek-styled" supplies and such.

[-Ember]

The only place I really feel the lack is in jewelry and statues and such... I mean, sure I can find a statue of Apollo if I want to pay $200 bucks for a museum reproduction. But the New-Agey shops that sell altar statues rarely have the ones I would want or a variety of different statues for a particular deity. Quite frankly there are some statues of Athene that I don't feel do her justice! :lol: And some of them come in the worst colors! I would also like to see more "Greek-styled" supplies and such.

I think that can be said for all pantheons... very few of the statues I've seen at those shops do ANY divinity justice, particularly the ones they claim to represent!

[Lady Jessi]

I had some questions , and the convo here was a bit confusing for me, so I went to a friend and put the questions to him. Here is what he came back with thus far:
Me> like just how old is wicca anyway?

Mike>Wicca came to be in the late 1930s, presumably 1938-9. It did not “officially” become a religion until the repeal of the anti-witchcraft laws in Britain in 1951.

Me> And the spread of "Paganism", was not the Roman/Greek right? They came later, and absorbed much and then christianised the whole affair. Or am I too confussed to make any sence .


Mike>Actually the term “pagan” is a blanket term covering more than 2500 non-Judaeo, non-Christian, non-Islamic religions. Thus, the peoples of any country of antiquity, before their conversion to Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, were in fact pagans… TRUE pagans, I might add.

Here is a brief overview of Wicca (from my essay, “Fundamentals of Magic”):

It is a fallacy to believe that modern witchcraft, magic, or Wicca is descended directly from pagans of antiquity or their religions. What modern witches, pagans, and particularly Wiccans are doing is trying to revive the so-called witchcraft practices described by the records that have survived from the days of the witch hunts (circa 1400-1800). It is impossible to establish a solid case with any real tangible evidence that would link modern witchcraft with any popular folk magic or traditions before the early 20th Century.

Modern witchcraft draws its inspiration from people such as Aleister Crowley and Gerald Gardner who created new rituals and organizations based upon their interpretation of the superstitions of their times, and historical records from the witch hunts... their interpretation of which are shaky at best. Ergo, they used a lot of imagination and myth in their creation of Wicca.

Throughout the modern pagan movement there is always talk about magic or magick. There are many who scoff at the addition of the "k" since Crowley introduced this spelling in the early 20th Century. Crowley was a Major influence on Gardner. Much of Gardner's rituals and such were copied verbatim from Crowley.

Gardner's attempts to mimic the classical or Elizabethan English grammar and spelling in order to give his writing of the Ardanes a much older and archaic appeal were greatly flawed. Crowley and Gardner don't appear to have been very well versed in such writing styles. But try they did, thus giving birth to the great myth that this new religion had been secretly passed on down through the generations over many centuries... when in fact it wasn't invented until the late 1930s.

I was taught many years ago to use the spelling of "magick" when writing about the kinds of magic pagans claim to do in order to differentiate between the actual manipulation of energies and the slight of hand tricks and illusions and other forms of entertainment. While this is an obvious influence of Crowley/Gardner on my mentor, I personally have no qualms about the use of either form of the word, and often employ either in my writings.

In the 1960s and 1970s, many other branches of Wicca were started. Some loosely attempt to use historical research to support their interpretation of history, but most rely entirely too heavily on imagination, fantasy, Hollywood science fiction, and a method of eclecticism that can seem illogical, and most often contradictory. Wicca was modified and reorganized, in the 1970s in America, and it adopted the Threefold Law and Madame Blavatsky's concept of Karma (which comes from Sanskrit: deed, action that has consequences). Karma had no role in Western religions or traditions before this time.

Here is a dear friend's description of Wicca:

"Wicca is a revisionist faith, thrown together and bastardized irrespective of compatibility (and I use that phrase advisedly) by Gerald Gardner in 1939, from the oral British traditions of centuries together with a smattering of Freemasonry, The Crotona Fellowship, and the Rosicrucians, and released on an unsuspecting world, calling it WICCA; it was openly read in 1951 with the repeal in Britain of the Witchcraft Act; and then updated and Christianized for the Americans in the 1970s with the addition of the Threefold Law." -- Thanks Janis!

Thus, in all these peoples’ bitching and moaning about Wicca-this, or Wicca-that… they all need to get off their asses and do a little bit of research. Wicca isn’t Celtic, or Egyptian or anything else. In the early to mid- 1980s the Egyptians and Greeks were prominent in modern paganism… in the late 1980s to early 1990s it became the in-thing to be Celtic-something. Then in the middle to late 1990s it became the
in-thing to be a something-shaman.

If these knuckleheads want to make an attempt to reconstruct or reinvent some form of Hellenic paganism, there are more resources available to them from the Greeks (and Romans too, for that matter) than from any other peoples of antiquity (here in the West). All they have to do is go to a library, go online, or go to a book store to see how Greeks of antiquity felt about their gods… Herodotus, Xenophon, Pindar, Thucydides, Plato, Aeschylus, Sophocles, Aristophanes, Euripides, Plutarch, Homer, and on and on and on.

But no… people are too damned lazy to do any historical research. They want it all handed to them in a neat little box at the drive-through window. They want some modern revisionists’ attempts at recreating a dead religion in the form of a new one, using the practices and tenants of it to recreate something that is totally contrary if not completely incompatible to what true followers of any given religion actually believed.

And another thing… the VAST MAJORITY of people calling themselves “Wiccan” are NOT Wiccan by any stretch of the imagination. Historically there never was anything even remotely resembling , let alone called, “Norse-Wicca” “Celtic-Wicca” “Faerie-Wicca” or any other fill-in-the-blank-Wicca! These are ALL modern creations… all attempting to recreate or revise so-called beliefs or practices from antiquity.

I could go on rant after rant after tirade… but, (since I’ve really gotta get back to work), I’ll leave you with this quote from Doreen Valiente:

"Witches do not claim that the rites they use today have descended unchanged from the Stone Age. Could any living religion of antiquity claim that its rites today are precisely the same as those used when it was founded? If it did, it would not be a living religion; it would be fossilized. On the contrary, what modern witches practice is a present-day version of a very old faith, of which the basic essence has remained unchanged." -- Doreen Valiente


Dohiya,
Mike
http://www.darkwoodofpangaea.org
http://www.pangaeasanctuary.org
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pangaeasanctuary


check out the websites here for more of his essays/insights, draw from them what you will,

Blessed Be
Lady Jessi

[MorningDove030202]

Ok I know all about the historical orgins of Wicca, I read Triumph of the Moon this Summer. I realy don't need the history lesson. I also know about Hellenic Recons who are doing the research and creating a non Wiccan Hellenic Religion. Infact I've written a prayer to Athena that this one Hellenic group added to their web site. I have a minor in history which included classed on Clasical Mythology and History of Ancient Greece and Egypt. I have lots of books with Primary sources in my living room.

I've already decided I don't want to be a recon, your right I'm lazy and it's too much work. Besided I'm a soft polythist and there are some aspects of the Greek panthnon that I'd rather not worship. My point here is that Recon is not for me..... (no offence).

I'm just wondering why with all these Celti-Wiccac books, and Norse-Wicca books, why hasn't anyone wrote a Greek Wicca book and why don't "witchy" stores care more greek themed tools, statues, etc? I think the main answere is that Celtic stuff is more popular. I'd just like to "stir up" some talk about Greek stuff, so that maybe some shops would clue in and start to cary more Greek themed items. Maybe even get some Wiccan authors to write a book focusing on a Greek style practice of Wicca.

Dove

[Ceffyl]

I'm just wondering why with all these Celti-Wiccac books, and Norse-Wicca books, why hasn't anyone wrote a Greek Wicca book and why don't "witchy" stores care more greek themed tools, statues, etc? I think the main answere is that Celtic stuff is more popular. I'd just like to "stir up" some talk about Greek stuff, so that maybe some shops would clue in and start to cary more Greek themed items. Maybe even get some Wiccan authors to write a book focusing on a Greek style practice of Wicca.

You know, if you don't find what you are looking for, you can always write a book on the subject... Or start a Web site with your research and what you are finding out. If the material you are looking for isn't readily available, chances are other people are searching. As you said, you have a history degree so sounds like you have a good
background.

Have you asked any shops to carry Greek stuff? What type of response have you had?

It's amazing who you meet when you start working on a research project...

Have you considered looking over at Ancient Worlds (http://ancientworlds.net) for some additional information or help? Lots of history buffs (and Peoples) there who might have some good suggestions or pointers.

[MorningDove030202]

Yes, I do ask shops to cary Greek stuff, and sometimes I do see a lightbulb come on, and other times it doesn't. I think the problem is that the wholesalers don't cary much Greek stuff. All the Greek stuff, as others on this topic have mentioned, are rather expensive museam reproduction kind of stuff....

As far as a book, I might just have to write one....... ;)


Dove

[fireswimmer]

For the stauary and things like that have you ever thought about commsioning pieces?

[dr_zeus440]

I feel that the Wiccan holidays are now "just Wiccan" (that is if you are celbrating them in a Wiccan way) and do not have to be celbrated in a Celtic fastion or with Celtic Gods.
well, if you want to rid the "celtic holidays" (if im not mistaken, theyre really a collection of practices from peoples of the entire region of north-west, even central europe) of the celtic practicing of them and the celtic gods...then what the hell are you celebrating?! a holiday isnt just a nominated day of the year, theres a reason behind the celebration. id say, if you want to practice a greek practice, find greek holidays, find the reason behind them, and celebrate those holidays for those reasons with those gods.

it's about the "stuff" for sale....It's realy hard to find Greek Stuff!
well, then ask stores to bring it in. if they do, cool, if they dont, go somewhere else, or go above them, find out who their suppliers are. find out how they found their suppliers, and try that way for finding other suppliers of the same type of goods but with greek flavour. or, as fireswimmer suggested, comission something, find people who can make things for you and ask them to make what you want. there are still sculptors and smithys in this day and age if youre prepared to trek around a bit. if you want it that badly, then pay for it, if you dont, then put up with not having it, or make it for yourself. there are quite a few options.

I'd like to see some books on a Greek practice of Wicca and I haven't found any.
research historical material on the greeks, find out their folk practices, and incorporate it into your own wiccan practices. it sounds like what you want is to be spoonfed. if its not in a book, go out and get the information and mix it with wicca yourself. best way to get exactly what you want is to do it yourself.

Not all of us have "the spirits" as a source.... We arn't all equaly skilled in metaphysical sources of information....
you fail to address fireswimmers comment on academic research. most of us are atleast equally skilled in research, and as you have this minor in history that youve paraded around, you must be more than able to research for yourself...though possibly unwilling. if the spirits are not forthcoming, find out what theyve "told to other people" to forge a metaphor, and what those people have done with it, i.e. the people's folk practices.

Yes, it's becuase they don't have anything to do with Greek and Wicca... I want the "And Wicca". I have lots of mythology books from college, from my minor in history. In other words I'd like to see a book on Wicca that exclusivly focues on the Greek Panthenon, and fits the Wheel of the Year to Greek Gods, and ways to make Wiccan Ritual a tad more Greek flavored.
so you want the "and wicca"...and you want the "greek pantheon"...and you want one that "fits the wheel of the year to the greek gods"...and you want "ways to make wiccan ritual..more greek flavored". im seeing a pattern here. it sounds like you know what you want and what you dont, but one of the things you dont want is to go out and get the information for yourself. if youre going to complain about a lack of resources when youre not going out and getting the information for yourself, then the post is called a rant, and it goes in the rant thread in the 'hot topics' subforum of the 'just talk' forum. not that hard. its not just about their mythology, get academic papers and texts, see if you can use a university library, find out about the practices of the greek people, and incorporate them into your wiccan practices.

Personally I don't know how one could really make the Wheel of the Year fit the Greek gods as it based on an amilgation of Celtic and Norse practices/festivals and you can't just blend a completely different set of gods and their myths into another system.
THANKYOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! pokie-poke

I've already decided I don't want to be a recon, your right I'm lazy and it's too much work. Besided I'm a soft polythist and there are some aspects of the Greek panthnon that I'd rather not worship. My point here is that Recon is not for me..... (no offence).
if you dont want to be a recon, thats fine, but that doesnt excuse you from having to research if you want to know something. fact is, the only way that youre going to be able to incorporate wicca and greek practice is if SOMEONE does that work...so either you pay someone, convince someone do it for free, buy an already written book, or do it yourself.

I'm just wondering why with all these Celti-Wiccac books, and Norse-Wicca books, why hasn't anyone wrote a Greek Wicca book and why don't "witchy" stores care more greek themed tools, statues, etc? I think the main answere is that Celtic stuff is more popular. I'd just like to "stir up" some talk about Greek stuff, so that maybe some shops would clue in and start to cary more Greek themed items. Maybe even get some Wiccan authors to write a book focusing on a Greek style practice of Wicca.
if you want a book written, either get an author interested directly, or write it yourself. if you want stores to carry greek themed items, get stores interested directly, or make (and possibly even sell) the items yourself.

i hope that everyones noticed the "do it yourself" motif thats running through my post, its a surprisingly often overlooked but surprisingly essential part of most less common practices, if not all practices.

[Kadynas]

Maybe even get some Wiccan authors to write a book focusing on a Greek style practice of Wicca.

Give me another year or so... I'm trying! :lol:

[Secrets Flame]

Ok, this is somewhat of a rant, but more like a constructive criticism.....

Why does Wicca in some places still mean Celtic? Why is it that I can NEVER find any Greek religious stuff beyond Pan, Artimis, and the occational Aphrodite image?

When will the shops catch on that Wicca is more than Celtic and Egypian???

Are you tired of Wicca=Celtic? I am!

Dove

I am too! Especially when the Celts were a druidic people, rather than a witchcraft peoples.

[Avalon]

It's weird - I have to agree with Elfa Wylde on one thing: a lot of the statuary that I've seen seems to focus on the Greek pantheon. When I first started out, every reference I could find to the Moon Goddess was Greek or Roman in scope. :whatgives I do agree that Wicca has come to mean Celtic in a lot of people's eyes, however. That's wrong...there are many pantheons.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I am too! Especially when the Celts were a druidic people, rather than a witchcraft peoples.

Do you really believe that all of the people were druids? :eyez: The druids were a priestly sect of people, but by far the majority of the people were not Druids and had their own folk beliefs and practices that were particular to them. Yes the druids led the major rituals, but there were also daily rituals and practices that were done on a daily basis at home that had nothing to do with the druids.

They also most certainly believed in witches, though like in many ancient cultures, contrary to popular belief in the neo-pagan community, the witch was not considered to be good and someone to look up to, but an evil person who wished to cause harm in most cases. There are a large number of charms to ward of witches and fairies both. These were of course recorded in Christian times, but it is considered most likely by anthropologists and historians that much of these beliefs and charms/protections were holdovers from the pre-Christian people.

Not to mention, as I said above, the connection is made between Wicca and the Celtic peoples because fully half of the Wheel of the Year, which is central to all types of Wicca, is based upon Celtic holy days/festivals and the myths that go with them.

[Stormcall]

I got tired of it as well, but basically any pantheon can be easily mixed in with Wicca... That's the best part OF Wicca, that it is what you make it. And you HAVE the power to do all these things that you want, so why not DO it?

[Honey]

Ok, this is somewhat of a rant, but more like a constructive criticism.....

Why does Wicca in some places still mean Celtic? Why is it that I can NEVER find any Greek religious stuff beyond Pan, Artimis, and the occational Aphrodite image?

When will the shops catch on that Wicca is more than Celtic and Egypian???

Are you tired of Wicca=Celtic? I am!

Dove
then look into greek mythology and you'll find tons of stuff.

[elfmage]

Do you really believe that all of the people were druids? :eyez: The druids were a priestly sect of people, but by far the majority of the people were not Druids and had their own folk beliefs and practices that were particular to them. Yes the druids led the major rituals, but there were also daily rituals and practices that were done on a daily basis at home that had nothing to do with the druids.

They also most certainly believed in witches, though like in many ancient cultures, contrary to popular belief in the neo-pagan community, the witch was not considered to be good and someone to look up to, but an evil person who wished to cause harm in most cases. There are a large number of charms to ward of witches and fairies both. These were of course recorded in Christian times, but it is considered most likely by anthropologists and historians that much of these beliefs and charms/protections were holdovers from the pre-Christian people.

Not to mention, as I said above, the connection is made between Wicca and the Celtic peoples because fully half of the Wheel of the Year, which is central to all types of Wicca, is based upon Celtic holy days/festivals and the myths that go with them.

Well said!

The main problem that I have is not that people assosciate Wicca with Cetlic themes/ideas, but rather that people sometimes seem to think that Wicca was the religion of the Celts.

And then ask someone if they sacrifice people too, and they get all annoyed.... LOL

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

If ever I open the witchware store as is my dream, I will carry some Greek-flavoured objects. Until then, I suggest www.sacredsource.com which has all manner of deity statues etc etc etc, as well as some that are of questionable divinity (ie, Venus of Willendorf and her ilk).
I think that the while Wicca Is Celtic thing stems pimarily from The White Goddess. Which, curiously, tries very hard to tell us that Greek and Celtic things were mixed quite a bit. Robert Graves HIMSELF said later that the book was absolutely insane, and it is to my sadness that it was taken as truth by so many. Let me be blunt - the White Goddess is effing INSANE. It is without a doubt one of the stupidest books I have ever read and should be read with a ten-pound bag of salt.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Wicca is a system into which you can slot any pantheon you like. How could we fit Mayan deities or Japanese daities into it? It would take a lot of bending, twisting, and jimmying.
For information on things 'celtic' as well as an entertaining debunking of all sorts of stupid myths, read 'The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles' by Ronald Hutton, not to mention Triumph of the Moon.
BTW: The Book of Shadows - so far as I have read abnd understood it - has little, if anything, to say about things Celtic. Ditto with 'Witchcraft Today'. If Gardner had much to do with th Celts, I couldn't find it, aside from the Greater Sabbats. The equinoxes and solstices weren't exactly observed by the ancient Celts, according to everything I've read.

[Benzaiten]

If ever I open the witchware store as is my dream, I will carry some Greek-flavoured objects. Until then, I suggest www.sacredsource.com which has all manner of deity statues etc etc etc, as well as some that are of questionable divinity (ie, Venus of Willendorf and her ilk).
I think that the while Wicca Is Celtic thing stems pimarily from The White Goddess. Which, curiously, tries very hard to tell us that Greek and Celtic things were mixed quite a bit. Robert Graves HIMSELF said later that the book was absolutely insane, and it is to my sadness that it was taken as truth by so many. Let me be blunt - the White Goddess is effing INSANE. It is without a doubt one of the stupidest books I have ever read and should be read with a ten-pound bag of salt.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Wicca is a system into which you can slot any pantheon you like. How could we fit Mayan deities or Japanese daities into it? It would take a lot of bending, twisting, and jimmying.
For information on things 'celtic' as well as an entertaining debunking of all sorts of stupid myths, read 'The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles' by Ronald Hutton, not to mention Triumph of the Moon.
BTW: The Book of Shadows - so far as I have read abnd understood it - has little, if anything, to say about things Celtic. Ditto with 'Witchcraft Today'. If Gardner had much to do with th Celts, I couldn't find it, aside from the Greater Sabbats. The equinoxes and solstices weren't exactly observed by the ancient Celts, according to everything I've read.

Personally, I'm not Wiccan, and I can't speek for the Mayan pantheon or very many others for that matter, but why couldn't you use the Japanese pantheon? :confused: Izanami and Izanagi are the creator deities from which the other gods descend, and there are Japanese equivalents to other gods also: Ares' Japanese counterpart would be Bishamon, Poseidon's would be Owatatsumi, and so on. Aphrodite's equivalent? Benzaiten! There are even Japanese holy days (Some are Buddhist while others are Shinto in origin) similar to Wiccan Sabbats. Bon, for example, is much like Samhain, except it is in mid-August. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch at all, I think. :thumbsup:

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

My idea stems from the thought that japan must have entirely different weather patterns , climate, cultural holidays, and so on. I'm not the most Japan-educated person, and the only deity I can easily name is Amaterasu, so someone may be able to make it work. I just couldn't think of a way *I* could make it work, and keeping in mind that too much syncrenitism (or however you spell it) can lead to wierd nasty issues.

[Celtic Solstice]

*chuckle* I agree although for the opposite reason... I am not "Wiccan." My spirituality is Celtic based though - I am more interested in the history, archeology, etc. but half the time I look up something "celtic" and I get "wiccan"!!!! Aargh!!!

Celtic Solstice

[fireswimmer]

[QUOTE=Silverfire Darkmoon]
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Wicca is a system into which you can slot any pantheon you like. How could we fit Mayan deities or Japanese daities into it? It would take a lot of bending, twisting, and jimmying.

QUOTE]

I follow a predominantly Modern Day Mayan path. You can not make it Wiccan. The Shamans deal with the gods and the rest deal with the spirits. That is a very broad generalized statement so there will be exceptions.

I read the posts that have recently been added to this thread and I came up with a question. Is Wicca a religion or a template? If so many other things can simply be "plugged" into it, is it a religion in itself? I am not trying to be rude to any Wiccans, I just thought about it. For a Christian you can not replace God with anything else. Same goes for the other pantheons. Why is it that with Wicca everything seems so interchangeable?

[MorningDove030202]

Well that's simple, it's because most wiccans are soft polytheists, meaning that all the various names of Gods from all the different cultures are all aspects of the Universal Dieity, so we are encouraged to use what ever names of God or Archetypes that we connect with. I think what makes one Wiccan or not is one's personal emphasis on historical accuracy. Wicca isn't the revival of a historical faith, it's a modern faith based on Gardner's teaching of witchcraft, magick, paganism, and eco-spirituality and sometimes feminism.
Dove

[QUOTE=Silverfire Darkmoon]
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Wicca is a system into which you can slot any pantheon you like. How could we fit Mayan deities or Japanese daities into it? It would take a lot of bending, twisting, and jimmying.

QUOTE]

I follow a predominantly Modern Day Mayan path. You can not make it Wiccan. The Shamans deal with the gods and the rest deal with the spirits. That is a very broad generalized statement so there will be exceptions.

I read the posts that have recently been added to this thread and I came up with a question. Is Wicca a religion or a template? If so many other things can simply be "plugged" into it, is it a religion in itself? I am not trying to be rude to any Wiccans, I just thought about it. For a Christian you can not replace God with anything else. Same goes for the other pantheons. Why is it that with Wicca everything seems so interchangeable?

[Neptune496]

I had once owned a book on Greek Wicca and it was pretty good, but I gave it away. The author speaks of his matron, Hekate, and of historical greek witchcraft in Thessaly, Greece; where allegedly a cult of witches had existed and devoted to the goddess. (I'm not gonna comment on the accuracy of his writings, since we don't know much of the cult of Hekate at all to say for sure what it was like) I don't remember him saying much else about how to put the Greek pantheon into Wiccan ritual though, but it's an interesting read for Wiccans I'd think...

But I can't for the life of me remember the name of that book!

In Greco-Roman lore, Hecate is a goddess of the crossroads, a guide, the night and enchantment. I always was attracted to her myself and have a beautiful white-stone plaque of her on the wall, where she protects the many crossroads in my house lol :)

But anyway! I'm glad its the wiccans this time standing up for what they don't see in Bookstores! Usually its just us stubborn recons having a grudge lol!

[Lovehound]

In perusing this thread, some questions come to mind.

1: Why is it so important to attach the label "Wicca" to one's spiritual path? Is it really necessary? If so, why? If I might be so blunt, is the need for that word rooted in a desire to be seen as "cool" or at least not prickly like the recons? If one is drawn to all things Hellenic, why NOT just be a recon? What exactly is wrong with that? I mean, I think I saw Dove mourning the fact that there's no literature out there on how to be a Hellenic Wiccan. (I really should have the whole thread opened up in a new window to quote a LOT Of things I was seeing, but sadly I have not done that.)

I myself would say one of two things in response to that. One is create a whole new tradition and find a new name for it, because it's not Wicca. Wicca was meant to be something specific, and there's nothing wrong with starting a whole new tradition and giving it the dignity of its OWN name. Let Wicca be Wicca. Why try to change it? Why try to mold it into something it is not?

Second, I'd think there were scads of books out there that dealt with Hellenic religion; just because they may not be WICCAN books, does that render the information in them invalid? I would think that this is the kind of thing anyone with Hellenic shadings would really want. There MUST be the Hellenic equivalent of H.R. Ellis Davidson out there somewhere (Davidson writes on Northern European history and spiritual practices).

2: Would anyone REALLY want to see DJ Conway produce a book on "Greek Magick" just like the "Norse Magick" and "Celtic Magick" books? I think that if that were to happen, it'd really........well, cheapen the whole thing. It's difficult to describe.

[Lovehound]

One more thought:

I'll sort of direct this question at Dove, but really at anyone who cares to address it.

Is your spiritual life about your relationship to the Gods, OR is it about fitting into a template that has a certain title?

What's it REALLY about, if you had to choose JUST ONE OF THOSE OPTIONS?

No wordiness here.

In fairness, I will give my own perspective on it as it applies to my life. I feel that's the only appropriate thing to do if I'm going to post something like this.

I'm a Heathen because Frigga came to me in vision many years ago and "tapped" me. She sent me a message via the runes that indicated I was meant to be Hers. After some time of living in denial, I eventually began learning about the Heathen ways. When deities tap you, they have a way of not leaving you alone until you bloody well pay attention to them. That's what Frigg did with me.

Not only that, but another factor that clinched my decision to become Heathen was the situation with the hurricanes here last summer. I used some powerful rune magic to protect my home and my cars from the devestating effects of Charley, Frances and Jeanne. It was literally all I had at hand - I had no plywood for my windows, I had no protective area to park my car in, and I went through Charley alone (for Frances and Jeanne, I stayed with two friends). After Charley, there was a mountain over 7' high of debris right in front of my ground floor apartment that could have been blown right through my windows during Frances - it was not cleared away in time for Frances' arrival. But I renewed my rune magic, and my apartment escaped unscathed - for all three hurricanes. My cars - untouched. Not one dent, not one scratch, nothing. No flooding in my apartment, no damage to my building. The worst I had to deal with was 5 days of no power as a result of Charley, and then I went to my friend's house to stay until my area got power back. As an aside, I did the same rune spell for my office at work - and my immediate working area, which was under the protection of the runes, also escaped unscathed. I thought to myself, "Damn. I think I owe the Heathen Gods something in return for seeing me through this nightmare of a hurricane season so well," and I committed myself to Them. After all, as it says in the Havamal, "A gift demands a gift."

I'm alive and well and in a snug little home thanks to Their help. I often feel like I owe Them my life, very literally. My home could have been destroyed with me in it during Charley alone - but it wasn't. You should have seen me, walking the floor and chanting the rune spell I'd done all night long, in the dark, winds screaming outside....oh man, a real nightmare, going through that alone.

That to me is where the proper religious devotion comes out of. Not out of a desire to be this or that label, but out of real experiences with the Gods and a real desire to know Them and serve Them. In that light, ask "how can I best serve these Gods" and quite often it seems to me that the best way for us moderns to do so is to look to the original practices that They will be most familiar with, use languages (and therefore ideas and concepts) that They will know and will most likely sing to Their hearts, and go with that.

Has ANY of this made any sense at all? I hoped to give some personal perspective with regards to the question I posted here....what is it REALLY all about anyway, and why?

[MorningDove030202]

Ok, I am rather tired of this discusion already but I'll defend myself once again. (And yes I do feel atacked.)

1) I'm not a recon because I don't want to be confined to what's historicaly accurate. Also, many Hellenics have issues with "magick" "spells" and "witchcraft the skill". I'm also a soft polytheists, believing that all the gods are part of the Universal Diety.

2) Wicca doesn't have specific Gods, you are suposed to find your own gods to relate to. This means that I can have an emphaiss on the Greek Gods and still be Wiccan. I'm not trying to mould it into something it's not. I'm just trying to mould it into my practice of Wicca.

3) If you look at my original post, I'm ranting about lack of Greek statuary. Granted you can find it online, but in my expereince I haven't found much at my local Witchy Shop.

4) No, I guess I wouldn't want to see a Greek Wicca book by DJ conway.... LOL

5) I've read alot of Greek mythology and I enjoy it, I had a class on it in college. As far as worship being historicaly accurate.....that doesn't interest me at all. I find it too much work and boring, so why bother? I'm already busy studing Correllian Wicca whiich works for me. If it aint broke why fix it?

My point is that Wicca is not Celtic reconstructionism, so then why is most of it Celtic flavored?

Morning (as in when the sun comes up) Dove

[Neptune496]

You have a good point morningdove, your looking to honor the facets of your Universal Deity in the way you feel is best, which is mostly Greek right? and I don't see a problem with that. I think some recons do find it a bit uneasy when wiccans speak of a historical pantheon put into wiccan practice, but you seem so well learned and understanding about the differences that I wouldn't even think of giving you a bad name, why should I? being a Greco-Roman recon myself, I think it's great neo-pagans have an interest in the old gods, even if they're not into historical ritual. (unlike you though I do greatly enjoy the old-time stuff lol).

I can relate, since the Romans themselves were influenced and even adapted foreign practices into their progressive culture, unlike the more Northern cultures who liked to keep their culture pretty much intact with the native people. I have however met many Norse heathens who are quite progressive!

Some wiccans unlike yourself don't even know more historical-minded pagans exist yet. I don't think its right to brand someone this or that when all you've come across as is a devoted wiccan who knows her stuff pretty darn well if I may say so! I

[Lovehound]

1) I'm not a recon because I don't want to be confined to what's historicaly accurate. Also, many Hellenics have issues with "magick" "spells" and "witchcraft the skill". I'm also a soft polytheists, believing that all the gods are part of the Universal Diety.

OK, well, that's the way it is then, but not even recons are always limited to what's historically accurate. Because so much information WAS lost, that opens up a lot of wiggle room for personal creative input.

Oh, and here's a question for you as far as the soft polytheism thing goes: if all Gods are part of the Universal Deity, does that include Iblis/Satan? Does that include Christ? Does that include Jehovah God? Look, I'm not really trying to be attacking, but to present elements that people often don't think of when they make comments like "all Gods are one God." Is that REALLY true? Is Diana the same as Mary, Mother of God? Is Mary the same as Baubo or Freyja or Morrigan or Demeter? These are points of theology that must be worked out with a fine toothed comb.

2) Wicca doesn't have specific Gods, you are suposed to find your own gods to relate to. This means that I can have an emphaiss on the Greek Gods and still be Wiccan. I'm not trying to mould it into something it's not. I'm just trying to mould it into my practice of Wicca.

So far as I knew, Wicca DOES have specific Gods, and the names that come to my mind are Aradia and Cerrnunos. But, I'll have to ask a friend of mine who is looking into British Traditional Wicca to be sure of that. As I understood Wicca, it was a mishmash of different things - some Mediterranean theology and magical practice, some Golden Dawn stuff thrown in too, as well as a blending of the Northern European holidays into the 8fold Wheel of the Year, etc etc etc.

3) If you look at my original post, I'm ranting about lack of Greek statuary. Granted you can find it online, but in my expereince I haven't found much at my local Witchy Shop.

OK fair enough. The local metaphsyical shops here have things like Buddhas and whatnot for sale, but then again in Orlando we do have a significant Buddhist community here. I think it's nice, seeing Lord Buddha there on the shelf every day...he lends a very peaceful presence to everything.

5) I've read alot of Greek mythology and I enjoy it, I had a class on it in college. As far as worship being historicaly accurate.....that doesn't interest me at all. I find it too much work and boring, so why bother? I'm already busy studing Correllian Wicca whiich works for me. If it aint broke why fix it?

Too much work. This is a sticking point with me. *sigh* Here's what twists my tail when I hear people say "It's too much work." First of all, anything worth having is worth working for. It's true in just about any realm of my life, not just my spiritual life, any time I have had to work for something and have really earned it, I have always felt a much deeper sense of accomplishment and pride in myself and my effots than if someone just handed something to me on a silver platter. I may not be wealthy or drive a Ferrari, but what I do have, I've worked for, and they are definitely mine.

The idea behind the mystery religions is that it IS work, and you DO have to earn your place in it and earn the insights you have and whatever titles and advancements come with progress in the tradition, and that's why there's initiation. That's what Wicca is, that's what Wicca does, and that's why I firmly believe that doing anything different yet calling it Wicca is not "kosher." It's just making a whole new tradition. It never was supposed to be for just anyone to just wake up one day and say, "I'm Wiccan now!" That's what makes it rather different from Christianity, which is a non-ecstatic, non-initiatory religion. Well, unless you're dealing with Catholics, who of course have confirmation. Even the Jews have something like it when one decides to convert to Judaism - you have to attend at least 6 months of Judaism 101 classes then go before a panel of 3 rabbis and be grilled by them before they accept you into the fold. Then they do something similar to a baptism, and voila! You're a Jew now.

Beyond that, I don't get it. Why are people (that's a generic term, note) willing to work so hard and study so much in college OR reading Silver Ravenfluff YET they aren't willing to put the same amount of work into at least learning something accurate? One takes up just as much time and effort as the other, and sometimes I really think that having a lot of books on Wicca being as available as they are has contributed to lack of scholarly excellence in the Wiccan world - and I think it serves to drag ALL Pagans down with them. I think it reflects poorly on ALL Pagans of ALL stripes - if a poorly-informed Wiccan is all a person has to judge all Pagans by, and then that person meets an Odinist like my honey, they'll assume he's just another flake like the Wiccan he or she had met before, and it's harder to make headway in this world and gain any respect for alternative religions as a whole as a result.

I should pause here and explain that one of the reasons I can't bear Ravenwolf was because she said in "Silver Broomstick" that Freyja is a Scandinavian Lunar Goddess, and Freyja is nothing of the kind. Sunna is the Scandinavian solar deity, and She is female. Manni is the Scandinavian lunar deity, and He is male. She made some other abberations in the book, but I was so stunned by that alone I have completely forgotten the other reasons I don't like her.

My point is that Wicca is not Celtic reconstructionism, so then why is most of it Celtic flavored?

Because it came from Britain, not Greece. If it had been developed in the US, it's likely it would have been strongly Native American flavored. If it had been developed in Germany, it would be strongly German in flavor. If it had been developed in the South Pacific...well, point made.

Once again, let me reiterate that it may SEEM like I'm being attacking, and sometimes I do have a rather aggressive manner, but I'm trying to present information that I think is too important to overlook, because so much rides on it. There's layers of this I haven't even mentioned yet. But now probably isn't a good time to do it.

Lovehound

[MorningDove030202]

Oh, and here's a question for you as far as the soft polytheism thing goes: if all Gods are part of the Universal Deity, does that include Iblis/Satan? Does that include Christ? Does that include Jehovah God? Look, I'm not really trying to be attacking, but to present elements that people often don't think of when they make comments like "all Gods are one God." Is that REALLY true? Is Diana the same as Mary, Mother of God? Is Mary the same as Baubo or Freyja or Morrigan or Demeter? These are points of theology that must be worked out with a fine toothed comb.

No I don't think they are all the same. But I do think that the names we use come from mythology which is writen my man and I don't take it litteraly. I call the Universal Deity "the Great Mystery" and to me it's like a diamond with many facets. It's so huge of a concept that we as humans have a hard time understanding it, so we divide it up into smaller "God-Concepts" that we can have a personal relationship with. I'm not saying that all the Gods are the same, I'm saying that our personal dieties are part of the universal diety and also part of our own creation. So, the different names for personal dieties are the many facets of the diamond. I'm not trying to lump all the gods together, just trying to recognize that our personal dieties have both a human construct (ie we wrote their mythology) and a divine construct (they are an aspect of the univeral diety). According to Correllian Wicca, we must never become so arogant to think that our personal dieties are the ONE TRUE universal Diety. This is where mainstream Christianity has gone wrong. Yes, Yahway and Jesus are aspects of the Univeral Diety. I'm not sure if Satan is or not. Most Satanists don't see him as a God, and neither do Christians. That question is outa my league. I do think there are many trickster Gods that are an aspect of Universal Diety.

Also I want to point out that I think it's silly to be afraid of mixing panthenons. I mean what's the poiint of worshiping pagan gods if you are going to be afraid of them? Isn't that why we left Christanity? They all have the same divine source, they are all higher beings, why wouldn't they get along?


So far as I knew, Wicca DOES have specific Gods, and the names that come to my mind are Aradia and Cerrnunos. But, I'll have to ask a friend of mine who is looking into British Traditional Wicca to be sure of that. As I understood Wicca, it was a mishmash of different things - some Mediterranean theology and magical practice, some Golden Dawn stuff thrown in too, as well as a blending of the Northern European holidays into the 8fold Wheel of the Year, etc etc etc.

I don't practice British Traditional Witchcraft, I'm studing Correllian Witchcraft, which is an ecletic tradition with Scottish and Cherokee roots. (The founder was both Scottish, and Cherokee) www.correlliantradition.com It might help if you read www.maidenmoon.com which has a great explination of Orthodox Wicca (your British Traditional Witchcraft) and Reformed Wicca, which Correllian Wicca is more like. Like I have said, when you move away from British Wicca, you can pick what ever Gods inspire you the most. In my Correllian Study Circle I organize, we have folks who are atheists, one is into Bast, I'm into Athena, another is into both Bridgit and Aretemis. It would get realy lonley waiting around for just local pagans who were into Athena, so I'm glad I'm in an ecletic group.

Too much work. This is a sticking point with me. *sigh* Here's what twists my tail when I hear people say "It's too much work." First of all, anything worth having is worth working for....The idea behind the mystery religions is that it IS work, and you DO have to earn your place in it and earn the insights you have and whatever titles and advancements come with progress in the tradition, and that's why there's initiation.

I am working! I'm working on my First Degree with Correllian Wicca. I'm working on becoming clergy and possibly starting a Correllian Temple. When I say it's too much work being historicaly accurate, what I mean is I don't see what the spiritual benifits are for being historicaly accurate. I do believe in work, and I have been working, but if it's not inspiring to me it's not going to help my path. I find trying to recreate the Greek religion to be a frustrating task and why should I when I'm happy with Wicca? That said, If there was a demos (Hellenic Church) near me I would definatly check them out and see if there was anything I could learn from them to inhanse my practice of Wicca.

Beyond that, I don't get it. Why are people (that's a generic term, note) willing to work so hard and study so much in college OR reading Silver Ravenfluff YET they aren't willing to put the same amount of work into at least learning something accurate?

Like I said, historicaly accurate doesn't always translate into "more spiritualy fullfilling" for many of us. I have a minor in history, I did my share of papers, and classes on Ancient Greece and Egypt..... I'm done with that level of accademic work. And by the way there is at least on good historicaly accurate book on Wicca and I HAVE read it... "Triumph of the Moon" by R. Hutton. It's an excellent work.

Because it came from Britain, not Greece. If it had been developed in the US, it's likely it would have been strongly Native American flavored. If it had been developed in Germany, it would be strongly German in flavor. If it had been developed in the South Pacific...well, point made.

Gardner himself never handcuffed Wicca to the Briish Isles.....we are open to explore other cultures and their panthenons. Though I'm related to a fellow on the Mayflower, I was never raised with any sence of Celtic anything. What I did get alot of in school is the greek myths and they feel more like my heritage than the Celtic myths.

Not all Wicca is British Traditional, and I understand that's what you are most familer with, but here in America, it's a bit of any panthenon goes.

[Lovehound]

:fpcsucks Oh man, I have to find an excuse to use that smiley. I'm addicted to smileys.

Well, I guess there's not a lot I can really add here. I have reservations about Correllian Wicca, based on info about the people behind it that someone passed on to me. Not very positive info. Better I stay WAY out of that.

[Lovehound]

Almost forgot...did I say something that indicated that I'm not American? I grew up in Silver Spring, MD and now live in Orlando. I'm not a Brit. I have a friend in PA who is learning British Traditional Wicca, but he isn't British either. Something in that last post seemed to indicate that I said something that suggested I'm British.

Oooh, here's another smiley that shows what I'd do if I met Johnny Depp: :fpraiseyo

[MorningDove030202]

:fpcsucks Oh man, I have to find an excuse to use that smiley. I'm addicted to smileys.

Well, I guess there's not a lot I can really add here. I have reservations about Correllian Wicca, based on info about the people behind it that someone passed on to me. Not very positive info. Better I stay WAY out of that.


Instead of taking someone elses word for it why don't you do the work of checking it out yourself? (Why am I reminded of the day care employee who refused to look at D&D books just because a preacher on the radio told her it was evil? Grrr, I hate self imposed ignorance!) You can check out the entire First Degree class for free... I think that would give you a good idea bout what Correllian Wicca is about. As a mom to a two year old, I haven't had the time to deote to a full coven, but I also didn't want to completely stop my exploration of Wicca just because I had a baby, so it was a good compromise to join www.witchschool.com. I'm sure there are places out there with better training, but it works well for me and it's important to have many different types of educational oportunities, including online classes I'm sure it's not the end-all be-all of Wicca, but it's a place to start and I enjoy the structure and having a personal mentor.

Also, I'd realy like the chance to defend my tradition from what ever it was that you heard. I mean if you are going to say you heard bad things, you might as well repeat it right? Other wise I wouldn't have said anything.

And ya, I did think you were British, sorry about that. I'm on the Eastern Shore of MD.... how about that? LOL

Dove

[Lovehound]

Also I want to point out that I think it's silly to be afraid of mixing panthenons. I mean what's the poiint of worshiping pagan gods if you are going to be afraid of them? Isn't that why we left Christanity? They all have the same divine source, they are all higher beings, why wouldn't they get along?

Let me put it this way: I would NOT want to be at a rite where German and Roman Gods were both invoked in the same ritual. When the Germans and Romans met, it was hate at first sight, and both parties were invoking the help of their deities to kick the asses of the other people. They were determined to utilize the assistance of their deities to make their enemies look like this: :toofless: They were saying, "Hey Gods, I'm gonna do this: :smash: to my enemies - help me out here, eh?"

Would anyone REALLY want to do a religious ritual and invoke Jehovah AND Allah? Perhaps it's going a bit far, but then again...this is the logical end of eclecticism. If we're going to do the eclectic blending thing here, let's go all the way.

Beyond that, there also is a matter of respect for the deities, and letting them be what they are, and not treating them like they were accessories for Barbie. In other words, picturing the Universal Deity as Barbie, and dressing It up in Athena or Hecate or Brighid clothing as one sees fit. To me, that would be very like my honey Skallabjorn saying to me, "I love you dearly, but could you be a little more like S.E.?" She's his ex. "Could you have a Harley Davidson like she does, and hang out in biker bars like she does? I really like doing those things, and even though I know you can't stand the biker scene, can you do it anyway because it's just like her?" I'd smack him silly if he ever said that to me. I'd be like, "Do you love me for ME or for the ways I'm like her?"

I think it also bears mentioning here that many recons out there really resent the blending thing and feel that when an eclectic blends things, it undermines their serious work of trying to rebuild what was lost thanks to Christianity's interference. I'd say, isn't THAT why we left Christianity to begin with? To get back to what was? Otherwise, why would we even bother with the Old Gods of ANY pantheon? Why wouldn't we just make up our own?

It also presents an inaccurate picture and teaches people downright wrong information about what was. The Celts were not and could never be Wiccans. No culture that supported headhunting would have anything to do with the Wiccan Rede and the whole "harm none" idea. Same with the Germanic Heathens. My God, three legions of Romans were sacrificed to Odin - that's why I wouldn't want to put Roman deities in a Heathen blot. Oooooh, bad mistake. That's not fear of the Gods themselves. It's concern for the consequences of mixing them esp. if there is bad blood between them. Hatfields & McCoys, in a way (and yes, I am related on my mother's side by marriage to the Hatfield family). And when wrong information is disseminated, it drags down the quality of education out there as a whole. A chain really is only as strong as its weakest link.

I think there has been far too much "dumbing down" of information out there. It's not challenging people to think, to learn the value in history. I've had people ask me, "Well, why should history matter?" Ask that question of any Jew who is a Holocaust survivor. Ask that question of the Native Americans who were driven off their lands by our own white ancestors. I live with the results of that history every day. Everyone does.

History DOES matter. It's being made even now, today. Things we do now will have an effect on all generations that follow us. We are part of history. As are the deities we follow and the traditions we walk in.

I say it's too important to tinker with...

Lovehound

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Also I want to point out that I think it's silly to be afraid of mixing panthenons. I mean what's the poiint of worshiping pagan gods if you are going to be afraid of them? Isn't that why we left Christanity? They all have the same divine source, they are all higher beings, why wouldn't they get along?

I am surprised that knowing the Greek myths as you would do that you ask this kind of question. It is very common even within the same pantheon of deities for various among them to not get along. I can think of several examples of this, throughout several cultures. In Norse tradition Loki killed Balder. In Irish mythology, Lugh killed his father Balor, though Lugh is of the Tuatha de Dannan and Balor was Fomorii. A couple examples from Greek mythology spring to mind of antagonism amongst the gods. Demeter and Hades (though I believe that's not his proper name as Hades is the realm he rules and not his name, correct?) is a definite example a deity not liking another. I can't say I blame Demeter either after he kidnapped her daughter. Or how about the story of Hera, Aphrodite and Athena (I believe, I don't remember the Greek myths perfectly as I've not read them in a while) fighting over who was the most beautiful. Quite a bit of animosity there too.

My point is if there are deities within a single culture's pantheon that don't get along, what makes you think that deities of conflicting cultures would get along with each other. I can't imagine that deities from any of the Celtic speaking tribes get along particularly well with deities from the conquering Romans or Anglo-Saxons. They conquered their people and forced their own religious traditions on the Gauls and Britons. No, I can't say I would believe they would get along at all.

[Ceffyl]

I read the posts that have recently been added to this thread and I came up with a question. Is Wicca a religion or a template? If so many other things can simply be "plugged" into it, is it a religion in itself? I am not trying to be rude to any Wiccans, I just thought about it. For a Christian you can not replace God with anything else. Same goes for the other pantheons. Why is it that with Wicca everything seems so interchangeable?

In general, Wicca is a religion with a recognizable set of tenets: belief in the God and Goddess, following the Rede/Rule of Return (goes along with a belief in karma), and celebrating the wheel of the year (usually 8 sabbats). These tenets will vary from tradition to tradition and among individuals.

My understanding is that Wicca provides a frame work for allowing an individual to honor any pantheon. The Wiccan interpretation of the God and Goddess can incorporate all deities (and thus panetheons). The Divine manifests in masculine and feminine polarities: the God and the Goddess. Deities are said to be aspects of the God and Goddess, rather like the facets cut into a diamond. Each deity name represents a another side, another archetype. From a Wiccan point of view, the Maiden, Mother, and Crone are all aspects of the Goddess. By understanding these individual facets, we gain a better understanding of the Divine.

Let's say that an individual feels drawn to the Roman pantheon. For her, the Goddess as Maiden is Diana, the Mother is Juno, and the Crone is Lucina. This individual is still worshipping the Goddess and the God by their Roman names.

Some traditions are specifically associated with one particular God or Goddess; others do not specify and let individuals choose their own pantheon, should they choose.

These interpretations apply mostly to American eclectic Wicca.

Blessings,

Starr :whatgives

[MorningDove030202]

I guess this is where I've been influenced by "Conversations with God".......

Our definitions on what a god IS are different. The Gods are above our human conflicts past or present. If I wanted to keep worshiping a vengeful, jellous god, I'd still be mainstream Christian. If a God isn't about connecting us with our Higher Self, then what's the point? I don't confine my idea of Athena to Greek Mythology or Greek History becuase to do so would be to add alot of human coruption. I want my gods to be above the bad aspects of Human Nature, not glorifying the parts of human nature that lead to suffering and pain. I expect better behaivor from anything I worship weither it has historical connection or it's a name I heard in a dream than no one has never heard of.

On that note, why not make up our own gods? I believe we do anyway, as people have written their mythology? I think we do in part create our own personal dieties, and then the Universal Diety takes note and supplies it with conciousness and the ability to guide us here on the physcial plane. Who cares what name we connect with to gain spiritual growth? We just need to remember that what ever name we use will always remain a Personal Diety which is partly a human construct and party a divine construct, never 100% divine, because then one is making a personal diety into a universal diety.

Barbie... well, the Universal Diety doesn't care how we ask it to dress up. Just as it's very big and hard to understand, we are very small and hard to understand. When we ask for it's attention using any name, it's happy to be there for us. It unconditionaly loves us, and doesn't quite understand why we have all these names and outfits, but it's willing to put them on so we can commune with it for our spiritual growth. If you unconditionaly loved your husband would you realy care how he asked you to dress?

It is important to know what is historical fact and what isn't and there is a movement in Paganism to educate ourselves better. I have read Triumph of the Moon and I'm not spreading any missinformation. I don't like it when people confuse sacred stories with fact, which is another reason why I left main stream Christianity. On the other hand it's not a Wiccan organization's job to teach secular History. People can go to the library or to school for that.

History matters, but it doesn't need to be worshiped, and we should expect anything we worship to be above the negative aspects of Human Nature.

Dove

[Ceffyl]

I definitely agree with Lovehound and Mòrag Elasaid MacDhòmhnaill on why it is important to understand the Deities you honor.

When you work with a particular deity, you are tapping into not only the Deity but all of His/Her associations, the energy stored by however-many-years of worshippers. You need to be aware of the deity's cultural context. If you hadn't read Greek mythology and weren't aware of the legendary bickering between Zeus and Hera, what would hapen if you invited Hera and Zeus to a handfasting rite?

Understanding the context of a particular deity shows your respect for Them and also establishes a connection between yourself and that Deity.

Blessings,

Ceffyl

[KEishin]

I'm going to be the odd one out here, but remember that Wicca was formed in England and based off of the Celtic agricultural year. There are now other cultural branches of Wicca: Hellenistic, Italian, Norse, etc, but the grandaddy source of Wicca was the Celtic culture of the UK.

[Nantonos]

I'm going to be the odd one out here, but remember that Wicca was formed in England and based off of the Celtic agricultural year. There are now other cultural branches of Wicca: Hellenistic, Italian, Norse, etc, but the grandaddy source of Wicca was the Celtic culture of the UK.

How is the Celtic agricultural year different to the Saxon, Roman, or Norse agricultural year, all of whom contributed to what is now England?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Yep. Different definitions is right. You have yours, I have mine, and we're both happy where we are. :smile: I like my gods having real emotions, strengths and weaknesses, it's what makes sense to me. Worshipping something that is completely foreign and alien from the human that it doesn't experience emotion just wouldn't work for me. Your opinion is that anything worth worshipping should be above petty But it works for you and that's what matters.

A couple other comments I had. You asked if I loved my husband unconditionally would I care if he asked me to dress in a certain way. My answer is, if he loved me unconditionally he wouldn't ask to me to dress in way but that which I was most comfortable. I am comfortable worshipping the gods as I do. I may be wrong about their nature, but it's what makes sense to me and what I'm comfortable with, so that's how they show themselves to me.

As for worshipping history, I don't think that either me or Lovehound was suggesting that one should worship history. I look to history because it is my opinion that if my gods were worshipped in the manner in which they were for centuries, then why fix something that isn't broke. The methods of the ancients are tried and true, I'm not going to mess with something that I know by their example works.

As I said above, we all have to worship in the manner that is comfortable for each of us. That is all we can ask for and it is my opinon that is why we all sought out the paths we did, because we weren't comfortable with our previous methods. I didn't leave Christianity because I didn't like their god, I left it because it didn't "fit" me, it wasn't comfortable.

I guess this is where I've been influenced by "Conversations with God".......

Our definitions on what a god IS are different. The Gods are above our human conflicts past or present. If I wanted to keep worshiping a vengeful, jellous god, I'd still be mainstream Christian. If a God isn't about connecting us with our Higher Self, then what's the point? I don't confine my idea of Athena to Greek Mythology or Greek History becuase to do so would be to add alot of human coruption. I want my gods to be above the bad aspects of Human Nature, not glorifying the parts of human nature that lead to suffering and pain. I expect better behaivor from anything I worship weither it has historical connection or it's a name I heard in a dream than no one has never heard of.

On that note, why not make up our own gods? I believe we do anyway, as people have written their mythology? I think we do in part create our own personal dieties, and then the Universal Diety takes note and supplies it with conciousness and the ability to guide us here on the physcial plane. Who cares what name we connect with to gain spiritual growth? We just need to remember that what ever name we use will always remain a Personal Diety which is partly a human construct and party a divine construct, never 100% divine, because then one is making a personal diety into a universal diety.

Barbie... well, the Universal Diety doesn't care how we ask it to dress up. Just as it's very big and hard to understand, we are very small and hard to understand. When we ask for it's attention using any name, it's happy to be there for us. It unconditionaly loves us, and doesn't quite understand why we have all these names and outfits, but it's willing to put them on so we can commune with it for our spiritual growth. If you unconditionaly loved your husband would you realy care how he asked you to dress?

It is important to know what is historical fact and what isn't and there is a movement in Paganism to educate ourselves better. I have read Triumph of the Moon and I'm not spreading any missinformation. I don't like it when people confuse sacred stories with fact, which is another reason why I left main stream Christianity. On the other hand it's not a Wiccan organization's job to teach secular History. People can go to the library or to school for that.

History matters, but it doesn't need to be worshiped, and we should expect anything we worship to be above the negative aspects of Human Nature.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

Well, I do think that there are things that are "broken" with the Pagan gods, and how they were historicaly worshiped, and ancient definitions of the nature of God.

I never said that my Gods don't experience emotion, they do, but they make choices and guide us based on unconditional love, not just reacting to their emotions.

I guess the other thing I would add about the Barbie thing, is that the Universal Diety is so all encompasing that it doesn't make a difference what we ask it to dress as. It's just as much you as it is your husband's ex, because it's all the same thing. The difference is only in our limited human perception.

Dove

[MorningDove030202]

When you work with a particular deity, you are tapping into not only the Deity but all of His/Her associations, the energy stored by however-many-years of worshippers. You need to be aware of the deity's cultural context. If you hadn't read Greek mythology and weren't aware of the legendary bickering between Zeus and Hera, what would hapen if you invited Hera and Zeus to a handfasting rite?

First I disagree with the "energy stored by worshipers" thing. Honestly for ever person who worships Zeus, there is a different Zeus becuase no two people belive in Zeus the same exact way. Same goes with Athena, there are thousands of Athena Goddess, because I'm sure no two of us believe in her the exact same way, though it can be similar enough to talk as though we worship the same being. In my view, worship doesn't give a God power, the Universal Divine gives them each conciousness and power.

Dove

[KEishin]

Good point. However if I remember my history correctly the Celts were the primary culture in the region right, meaning Ulster and SE England? (I could be wrong, it happens). I know there were several Saxon and Norse invasions after the Romans left, but they generally left the basic culture unchanged. Then of course the Picts the Angles and the Scots added to the melee. The Celts were a group of peoples loosely tied by similar language, religion, and cultural expression, not a formal nation, so a lot of 'adoption' of stuff occurred.

Anyway my post is not to be inflammatory, just to remind folks about Wicca's roots.

[Nantonos]

Good point. However if I remember my history correctly the Celts were the primary culture in the region right,
Primary in the sense of first (since we don't actually know what language group Mesolithic and Neolithic peoples were in), yes. Primary as in sole dominant influence, no.
meaning Ulster and SE England? (I could be wrong, it happens).
(All of the British Isles, not just SE England)

I know there were several Saxon and Norse invasions after the Romans left, but they generally left the basic culture unchanged.
Why do you say that, and are you suggesting that the culture was the same before and after the Romans, too?

Then of course the Picts the Angles and the Scots added to the melee. The Celts were a group of peoples loosely tied by similar language, religion, and cultural expression, not a formal nation, so a lot of 'adoption' of stuff occurred.
Yes, I know who the Celts are. My point was that their agricultural year was not especially different to other peoples agricultural year for the same region and same climate, so why do you state that its a Celtic one rather than any of the others?

Anyway my post is not to be inflammatory, just to remind folks about Wicca's roots.
(Not sure why you bring up inflamatory ... I just asked you for clarification on what you were suggesting).

[Nantonos]

First I disagree with the "energy stored by worshipers" thing.
Okay, and your final point about a universal divine being the energy source fits in with that. But then you say:

Honestly for ever person who worships Zeus, there is a different Zeus becuase no two people belive in Zeus the same exact way. Same goes with Athena, there are thousands of Athena Goddess, because I'm sure no two of us believe in her the exact same way, though it can be similar enough to talk as though we worship the same being.
So if the differing experiences of each worshipper contribute something, what is that something if not energy? And if they are 'different but similar' is that not because they are reaching towards the same deity? Perhaps instead of talking of energy sources, its better to talk of energy paths or conduits or ways to interface a deity with a human - once some worshippers have carved a particular channel than that channel becomes both easier to access, and harder to change, for subsequent worshippers.

[MorningDove030202]

I don't think that the Universal Diety need to be worshiped to have energy. But mostly I was disagreeing with this:

"you are tapping into not only the Deity but all of His/Her associations, the energy stored by however-many-years of worshippers."

If there is energy being stored, it's going to the Universal Diety and then distributed to the Personal Dieties. Yes, that's how I think of it.

Dove

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I've gotta ask this. If you think the ancient gods are "broken" why bother worshipping them at all? I mean really if they're broken then why even bother expending the time and energy on mixing Greek religion with Wicca? Why not, as you were mentioning previously, just create your own go