Spirit vs Diety same thing?

[Nightspoet]

I have a question for those who incorporate a spirit call within their ritual My friend and I are having a bit of a discussion she seems to believe that Spirit and Diety are the same thing which I dont to me spirit is the embodyment of all the elements combined and diety is the divine can any of you elaborate or maybe give me some information as to your belief on this or maybe a better way of explaining it so that I can get my point across?

All help is greatly appreciated

Nightspoet

[Mindflayer]

Hmm, are you taliing about Spirit as in the 5th (top) points of a pentgram? or sprit as in someone's soul?

[Nightspoet]

spirit as in the 5th element, akasha, the embodiment of the 4 other elements

[MorningDove030202]

spirit as in the 5th element, akasha, the embodiment of the 4 other elements


In that sence, I do see them as the same. The Divine is the 5th element and is made of all the others.

Is that confusing enough for you? LOL

Dove

[Nightspoet]

lol it was plain enough to understand thanks dove

Well to me spirit is an element it is the emodiment of all elements joined together would you worship an element NO do you pay regaurd to them yes deity to me is the divine the creator the THING which used the 5 elements to create us I mean our body is warm so there must be fire from the electrical impulses in our brain we are made up of water we need air tolive and the earth is the substance we are made from and if their were no spirit then we would be statues to me........ we have all those things but we are not diety

[Thalias_Smile]

To me Spirit is a diamond w/infinite facets, whereas Deity denotes a specific facet OF that diamond. Does that make sense to you?

[Nightspoet]

To me Spirit is a diamond w/infinite facets, whereas Deity denotes a specific facet OF that diamond. Does that make sense to you?

Yes so you belive that spirit is say alot of things almost everything and diety is a embodiment of one of those everythings?

[Thalias_Smile]

Precisely....to me using words like Akash and fifth element to describe Spirit, I think just confuses people more. It's time that those of us who are teaching the new generation of pagans need to explain these things in plainer terms, until they get to the point where they understand Spirit & Deity as it is revealed to them through "personal revalation." (i.e. dreams & meditation)

[MorningDove030202]

lol it was plain enough to understand thanks dove

Well to me spirit is an element it is the emodiment of all elements joined together would you worship an element NO do you pay regaurd to them yes deity to me is the divine the creator the THING which used the 5 elements to create us I mean our body is warm so there must be fire from the electrical impulses in our brain we are made up of water we need air tolive and the earth is the substance we are made from and if their were no spirit then we would be statues to me........ we have all those things but we are not diety

IMHO:

I am not a Goddess, but the Goddess is me. My soul is a piece of the Goddess...

Techincaly I don't worship Divinety I respect and revear the Gods, but the word "worship" signifies to me that they are above me and I am below them. It denotes a heirarchy that I don't feel is accurate to my beliefs. I Celebrate the Gods, I don't realy worship them. Least not in the mainstream Christian sence of the word worship.

The Gods didn't just pick up some elements and make us like we would form clay into a pot... The Goddess gave birth to us, we are made of her.... taking this into consideration, it would make sense that the Goddess is made of all the elements, as so are we......

Confusing yet?

Dove

[Nightspoet]

IMHO:

I am not a Goddess, but the Goddess is me. My soul is a piece of the Goddess...

Techincaly I don't worship Divinety I respect and revear the Gods, but the word "worship" signifies to me that they are above me and I am below them. It denotes a heirarchy that I don't feel is accurate to my beliefs. I Celebrate the Gods, I don't realy worship them. Least not in the mainstream Christian sence of the word worship.

The Gods didn't just pick up some elements and make us like we would form clay into a pot... The Goddess gave birth to us, we are made of her.... taking this into consideration, it would make sense that the Goddess is made of all the elements, as so are we......

Confusing yet?

Dove

Nope still not confusing I understand what your saying and I agree worship is a bit drastic in useage lol but it just rubs me wrong in ritual when my friend says lets not call spirit because we are calling Diety to me it feels incomplete yes though we are calling diety why not call one element when your going to call the other 4 ya know just feels like my friend is using spirt and diety as some generic universal enterchange and it just seems to cheapen both for me Does that make sense?

[MorningDove030202]

Nope still not confusing I understand what your saying and I agree worship is a bit drastic in useage lol but it just rubs me wrong in ritual when my friend says lets not call spirit because we are calling Diety to me it feels incomplete yes though we are calling diety why not call one element when your going to call the other 4 ya know just feels like my friend is using spirt and diety as some generic universal enterchange and it just seems to cheapen both for me Does that make sense?

Well, you could make spirt a "fifth quarter"...who says you can only have 4? Then just invoke diety after you have cast the circle....

I know I'm unconventional...but then again I found out recently that you can cast a cirlce in many many many different ways...

Dove

[Nightspoet]

Thats what I am saying dove is its not some interchangeable thing to call one or the other both are good I mean does it hurt even if she considers it doing it twice I know this path is all about exploration and understanding and I am open minded I am not saying I couldnt be wrong cause Goddess knows I have been before lol I just consider spirit a 5th element and goddess a diety to me they are not s substitute one for the other and as I said its just a discussion we are not getting heated over it lol just having a difference of opinion lol

Yes I have found a few different way to cast circle course you have your walk the circle 3 times deosil method and the one time deosil method or the mental imagery method have seen everything from elaborate to simple and at no time did I feel the circle wasnt cast

Thanks for your input

BE Blessed

Nightspoet

[Thalias_Smile]

I believe that every thing in all of Creation, is a piece of the puzzle which is Spirit/God. We all come from the Source, and we all long to return to it. :colorful:

[MorningDove030202]

Thats what I am saying dove is its not some interchangeable thing to call one or the other both are good I mean does it hurt even if she considers it doing it twice I know this path is all about exploration and understanding and I am open minded I am not saying I couldnt be wrong cause Goddess knows I have been before lol I just consider spirit a 5th element and goddess a diety to me they are not s substitute one for the other and as I said its just a discussion we are not getting heated over it lol just having a difference of opinion lol

Yes I have found a few different way to cast circle course you have your walk the circle 3 times deosil method and the one time deosil method or the mental imagery method have seen everything from elaborate to simple and at no time did I feel the circle wasnt cast

Thanks for your input

BE Blessed

Nightspoet

I realy realy realy wish you would use some punctuation. I have to read your posts like 3 times to get it. So is your magickal partner unwilling to compromise? I'm not sure if you are saying that calling both is no good or if you want to call both, or what it is you want to do in circle that your partner is against/unwilling to chainge.

Dove

[Morgandria]

I personally feel invoking both Spirit as a 5th element, and Deity, in the same ritual is redundant. It doesn't matter to me if you're calling down the whole of something, or just a small piece of it - Spirit, in one form or another is still present in the ritual. It would be the same if you called down individual elementals for Quarters, rather than the element as a whole. Each element would still be represented (although personally I wouldn't call individual elementals ever, when calling the Quarters).

The format for casting a circle in Wiccan practice, at least as I understand it, is that of a sqaured circle. You have four elements from four cardinal points, and inside that square there is a circle cast, in some traditions set at a predetermined size with a physical line drawn with chalk or a cord. I can't see how adding a fifth element to the circle casting would work within this squared circle format. You can't exactly "call quarters" if what you are really doing is "calling fifths".

-M.