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Niamh
March 2nd, 2001, 12:12 AM
Does it ever bother anyone that no one (meaning general public) seems to know that the "snakes" that this saint drove out of Ireland were pagans?
Just thought I'd throw something out there...

Mairwen
March 2nd, 2001, 01:41 AM
And what of St George and his "dragons"?

Niamh
March 2nd, 2001, 02:56 PM
Yes! I hadn't put much though to it... I was trying to decorate the library for the month of March and thought a lot Patrick and how proud many Irish are on that day. And of course I'll be expected to wear green to work and be cheerful, the redheaded Irishman that I am! :crazy:

mol
March 3rd, 2001, 06:36 AM
Whats the history of this...if you dont mind explaining...

Niamh
March 3rd, 2001, 10:20 PM
... I've forgotten some of the early history of Patrick. I know he was taken from his home in Gaul at a very early age, and was converted to Christianity by monks and sent to live in a monastery in Ireland. He set out to convert Ireland, which, at that time (early 400's C.E.) was predominantly pagan, despite the growing number of monasteries built there.
If his attempts at conversion failed, he used violence against the "snakes" often torturing and killing them.
Hence, St. Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland.
This is what I got from a few books and a college course. If I'm wrong, someone set me straight!

mol
March 4th, 2001, 07:47 AM
Ok...usually, I have heard certain things as I grew up...even growing up in a Christian home i knew that Witches were once persecuted, Jews, etc. I had been told most of the 'myths' that came along with the traditions.

I have never heard this! :eek:

This is very strange to have never heard anything about this...

BrightStar
March 5th, 2001, 12:38 PM
Hi all!
I'd heard Patrick was born in Britain.As a child he was captured by Irish and enslaved.He escaped eventually and was educated in the Catholic Church.Finally becomes a priest and is sent to Ireland because he'd been there before.He supposedly had a lot to do with Christian inspired themes taking over the pagan holidays there.
Peace and Love
BrightStar

Niamh
March 5th, 2001, 12:42 PM
yes, he adapted the trefoil to stand for the "father, son and holy ghost." He did try to adapt a lot of pagan beliefs into Catholacism (sp?). Revering the Virgin Mary like a Goddess was another thing he did.

Litha
March 5th, 2001, 12:45 PM
This was sent to me by a questioner
asking if I've ever heard of this before.
I have not, so I put this out there to you all.
Are you knowing if it's truth? *************************
On March 17, many people in this country will celebrate a holiday which has nothing to do with their ethnic background or their current country of residence, and everything to do with an historical religious event.

On this day, genocide was committed upon a Nation. On this day the leaders, healers, teachers and priesthood of the various Celtic nations died, at the hand of their fellow Irishmen.
On this day, the Christian church claims that Patrick drove all the snakes from the shores of Ireland.
Most of these people did not leave those shores alive.

Snakes are the symbol used by the Christian church to symbolize Pagans. The legend of the removal of all the snakes from Ireland (which never had any snakes to begin with), stems from the symbol of the snake to
represent Paganism.

As was the way with those lands and cultures
conquered by the Christian church, all records of the former religions practiced by the people of the land were wiped out to the best of the abilities of those who usurped authority from the rightful leaders, both
civic and religious.

Although I am Irish:
On March 17, I will not wear green.
On March 17, I will not wear a shamrock.
On March 17, I will not honor the man who lead the conquest of Ireland.
On March 17, I will wear black.
On March 17, I will wear snakes.
On March 17, I will mourn the deaths of my spiritual ancestors.

Niamh
March 5th, 2001, 12:49 PM
I never heard tell of a mass execution! I wonder if it is true... I think I want to research this a little more. BUt then, there is not much solid truth to go by!
Anyhow, I know that Patrick did drive the pagans out of the country, but I'd always heard it was little by little. And I do find it odd that so many people who aren't Irish and aren't Catholic celebrate this holiday!
And, by the way, I haven't worn green on March 17th for years... since I found out the truth behind the "snakes."

Litha
March 6th, 2001, 12:38 PM
St Patrick was not Irish, he was the son of a Roman Deacon, believed to have been born in Scotland, which makes then him a Scotsman.
He was captured by Irish raiders when he was 16, treated badly, and after he escaped (or was freed, not certain about that) he studied religion.
He returned to Ireland very late in life, around the age of 60, and got busy converting the natives.
To his credit, he ended the practice of slavery, and spoke out against the treatment of women.
His closest friend was a noblewoman who founded a convent order in Ireland.
He is believed to have died on March 17.

On the question of genocide, I have no idea where the writer got this information.
There is nothing, historically, to say that a massacre of this kind took place on March 17. This is supposed to be the day of St Pat's death...There are, as far as I know, no reports of any massacre connected with St Pat's ministry.
He tells a story that one Irish leader burned his castle and killed himself rather than convert, but St Pat himself was largely reported to be a gentle man who believed in non-violent tactics.

This is not to say he was RIGHT, but he was no religious war leader...too old, too studious. He was not the first Christian in Ireland by any means, there were others
before him, and their methods may have been different.
St Pat himself was condemned by the Roman Church because he taught Greek Coptic Christianity.

The part about the snakes appears to be is true.
There were never any snakes in Ireland, the "snakes"
were symbols of the old Celtic Druidic religion, particluarly the priests.
St Pat did probably introduce the practice of coverting
ancient religious feast days to Christian feast days, since he believed it was easier to let the people go on celebrating at their usual times, just for different reasons...so Yule became The (Birth of) Christ Mass, the Spring Rites became Easter, and so on.
The phrase "drove the snakes out of Ireland" I always took to mean a migration of Druids to Britain as Christianity took hold in Ireland.

As was the way with those lands and cultures
conquered by the Christian church, all records of the former religions practiced by the people of the land were wiped out to the best of the abilities of those who usurped authority from the rightful leaders, both
civic and religious. This appears true again. They did this with the Mayans. The burning of opposing religious texts was a base act by missionaries to ensure nothing
would be passed on of the "old" religion. But whether St Pat ever did this is not clear. He does not mention it in his writings.

> On March 17, I will not wear green.
> On March 17, I will not wear a shamrock.


Well, Green is Ireland's national colour and nothing to do with St Pat. Likewise, the shamrock is the floral symbol, like the Maple Leaf of Canada. There is a legend that he used the shamrock to explain the Trinity, but again, he never made mention of that. There is no harm
in celebrating being Irish! Any excuse for a party (:

> On March 17, I will not honor the man who lead the conquest of Ireland.

Doubtful...Christianity came to Ireland before St Pat. And the Vikings did a pretty good job of raping and pillaging before then, and the British have repeatedly invaded and subjugated Ireland...St Pat led no armies, he peacefully converted the Irish to Christianity.
Whether you agree with that or not, it would be wrong to paint the man as a rabid war leader. There were plenty of those, some of them Irish.

no doubt there were killings, and unspeakable acts (the Christians' record in other cultures, particularly the Carribean Indians, would testify to that) but St Patrick is not usually associated with this kind of militant conversion.

mol
March 8th, 2001, 01:48 PM
Thanks for the info...quite an eye opener...although I still cant believe that all my life I have never heard these things...or at least some resemblance of it.

falia
March 14th, 2001, 03:43 PM
vary interesting I can not believe I never knew that thank you for the info, it was helpful.

ELM
March 15th, 2001, 12:07 PM
Yes, I only know about Patrick from the film they did about him. Has anyone seen it? Anyway, I think these patron saints are all oppressers, what bout St David? Does anyone know anything about him? I know this Irish woman, and she gets much more excited about St Brigids day, St Brigid being the origonal Goddess and she says this is Irelands Matron Saint. Perhpas the Irish would do better to celebrate that? Just a thought.

Litha
March 15th, 2001, 02:52 PM
I am not knowing that all patron saints are oppressors and not familiar with St. David.

I can say that as with all significant historical figures, Saint Patrick's life is remembered with a mixture of fact and folk lore. It is often difficult to know where the facts end and lore begins. But intertwined in the story of Saint Patrick, truth and tale, one can seek inspiration for spiritual travelers journeying through the difficult times in today's world.

For example, shamrocks became associated with Saint Patrick because he is said to have used this three leafed plant to explain the trinity, three in one, to the Irish people.
Now for me the trinity is composed of Mother Maiden Crone. The creatrix placed such a plant on our earth as a symbol and reminder of love for us all.

Although I do not know if the folk lore about Saint Patrick is true, I do know that faith and the release of unneeded anger into positive energy transmutation create unusual power in people.

Dextra
March 16th, 2001, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by ELM
Yes, I only know about Patrick from the film they did about him. Has anyone seen it? Anyway, I think these patron saints are all oppressers, what bout St David? Does anyone know anything about him? I know this Irish woman, and she gets much more excited about St Brigids day, St Brigid being the origonal Goddess and she says this is Irelands Matron Saint. Perhpas the Irish would do better to celebrate that? Just a thought.

From the research I've done, St. Brigid WAS the Great Goddess of Ireland, and when the Christian missionaries came to Ireland, they had to find a way to integrate her. The Roman Catholic Church couldn't necessarily call the Great Goddess of Ireland a demon, so they canonized her instead. Henceforth, she would be "Saint" Brigid, patron saint of smithcraft, poetry, and healing. They "explained" this by telling the Irish peasants that Brigid was "really" an early Christian missionary sent to Ireland, and that the "miracles" she performed there "mislead" the common people into believing she was a goddess. For some reason, the Irish swallowed this. (They also came to believe that Brigid was also the "foster-mother" of Jesus, giving no thought to the implausibility of Jesus having spent his boyhood in Ireland!)

Just a little history on that there for ya, Elm. ;)

Litha
March 17th, 2001, 12:13 PM
March 17
not just St Patricks day (:


The annual Festival of Astarte was held this day in Canaan to honor the honor the Goddess known as Queen of Heaven. Another of her many names was
Ashtoreth.
Red eggs were given as gifts to family and friends. Some claim this the basis for our Easter egg tradition, though most attribute the pagan beginnings of this tradition to the ancient fertility rites of the Goddess Oestre, or Eastre of the Germanic peoples.
In ancient Rome, a women's festival of freedom known as the Liberalia was held annually on this date.

Carmelo
March 21st, 2001, 01:16 AM
First, I want to thank you all for the information. It was very good (since I never even knew why we celebrated this holiday other than I was Roman Catholic).

Second, the idea of snakes. It's very strange to me that Christians would use snakes as the 'evil' sign. It is obvious to me that they never read past the first few chapters of Genesis. Yes, Satan had apparently taken the form of a tree snake to entice Eve into eating the apple. But, they must all have mutually forgotten the part where Moses fashioned a snake out a metal (I forget which one and am too lazy to look it up) so that, when out in the wilderness, whoever looked upon it would not only be forgiven but be protected as well for the day that it was raised.

So, the next time you get a Christian who tells you that snakes are completely evil, or signs of the devil in his form, remind them about that little piece of Biblical history they tend to have forgotten.

Mass morons, you gotta love 'em.

Litha
March 21st, 2001, 03:07 AM
I rather like snakes myself, being born in the year of the wood snake (: This is the year of the snake right now and so far I have been enjoying myself quite a bit!!!

Ozymandias
March 22nd, 2001, 02:23 AM
St bast.....I mean Patricks day-any reason to drink.

Summer Solstice
March 27th, 2001, 08:53 PM
LITHA You are getting a standing ovation from me in Massachussets .
My sister in law is right off the boat from Dublin and she is brainwashed to believe St Patrick was , well a SAINT.
It is about time that people learn the truth . I have also heard similar to what she wrote about St Patrick .
I am sooooooooo fed up of these people believing these stupid old superstisions/rumors ..off the subject a bit (I apologize) but in Plymouth Massachussetts at the end of November every year they do a big thing saying that is where the first THANKSGIVING occured ...guess what people IT NEVER HAPENED !!!!! Lincoln started that to try to get the North & the South together...They one who knows that very well is Trevi ,she works for PLIMOTH PLANTATION...the girl did the research.
So I also feel like Litha does ,there is nothing to celebrate. Also Columbus day...EXCUSE ME ,but how can you find a country when people are already there & he never stepped on American soil .....LMAO!!!! (sorry for rambling)

Litha
March 28th, 2001, 12:46 PM
ah, pshaw ::bowing at waist, then curtsying::
intriguing topic, as are the ones you brought up as well!
one thing about our path is that we are meant to question and seek....it's not about the "facts" it's about our truth

btw, summer solstice=litha :)

Trevi
March 29th, 2001, 08:36 AM
I haven't been here in a while.... 3 boys can do that to a person. Plus, I've started working again (like Summer Solstice said...) so I've been a little absent from the site. Looks like I missed some good stuff, too!

As far as Thanksgiving, (obviously my favorite non-holiday! :)) Summer is right. It never happened. At least, not amongst the people we call the "pilgrims". There could be a whole website dedicated to the mis-interpretations of the pilgrims, but I'll stick to just Thanksgiving. Just like fireworks were a modern way to re-create the cannons and gunfire of the revolutionary war, so to are Turkey feasts and cranberry sauce modern day explanations for a victorian holiday. They DID have a feast, but it was to celebrate making it through that first winter and having such a good harvest that first year...

Interesting point..... The pilgrims held "A day of thanksgiving" whenever they felt the need to thank god. It was a day set aside for FASTING! not feasting

Like almost every other "holiday" this one was started after the fact and uses FACTS to its own advantage.

Sorry for rambling.... I'm very passionate about my work! :)

Summer Solstice
March 30th, 2001, 12:59 PM
most holidays are based on 50% fact & 50% fiction

Cinnamon Girl
March 10th, 2003, 01:50 PM
bump!