pagan calendar project

[mothwench]

:D i've decided to make a kind of a daybook/calendar/journal thingy in order to keep track of my magical endevours and time spells and offerings and blots and such, but also as a private diary. but instead of regular dates i want to use the timekeeping of the coligny calendar. (i also plan to do this with the anglo saxon calendar, but i'll start that once i've got my head round the celtic one.)
then i want to put useful info such as sun and moon rise and set times, moon phases, festivals etc. i also want to leave space on each page for a planner, but instead of using hours, i'd use time divisions like sunset, dusk, night-time, darkness, sunrise, etc.

so anyway, i need some help with this, cause i'm finding it all quite fiddly, calculating the right dates. maybe i just haven't got the right mind for it, i've never been any good at maths. :sadeyes: and i reeeeeally really want to get this done by samhain. *pouts*

so far i've calculated that for example today/tomorrow, mon, oct. 4/tue, oct. 5 (from sunset to sunset) would be the 7th day of cantlos (song-time)... i think. :twitch: from what i learned the days begin at sunset and the months begin at the full moon, isn't that right? so i reckoned today is 7 days from the last full moon, so it must be the seventh. :hairred: but i'm sure i must have gone wrong somewhere along the way because this calendar i found and downloaded off this site http://technovate.org/web/coligny.htm turns round and says no, it's in fact the 23rd of cadal, how do they get the 23rd? :confused: and what's cadal? are there different names and spellings for the months?

i'd very much appreciate any help. i'm a bit stuck here. :toofless:

[mucgwyrt]

That's SUCH a good idea.
Would you hunt me down and shoot me like the dog that I am if I did a 2005 Anglo-Saxon calendar? :D

I'll make you a copy :heybaby:

_cookie_ _cookie_ _cookie_


(PS - ask nantonos - he knows all about this kind of thing doesn't he?)

PPS - you could get it bound at www.lulu.com :sailing:

[mothwench]

cool, go right ahead, that's less work for me then. :D and yeah, i'm hoping nantonos sees this thread soon. :kooky:

[mucgwyrt]

*showers moth in cookies* _cookie_ _cookie_ _cookie_
Where would you get "such as sun and moon rise and set time"?
Are you gonna make it all purty and picturey?
Can I trade you an anglo-saxon calendar for a coligny calendar?! :D

[mothwench]

*showers moth in cookies* _cookie_ _cookie_ _cookie_
Where would you get "such as sun and moon rise and set time"?
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.html
fill in form b, and click on calculate table.
Are you gonna make it all purty and picturey?
of course! _travolta_
Can I trade you an anglo-saxon calendar for a coligny calendar?! :D
yeah, we can do that, only we'd have to leave out the sun and moon rise and set times, cause they'd be different depending on location. but it's certainly a good idea to exchange concepts.
:floating:

[mucgwyrt]

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.html
fill in form b, and click on calculate table.

of course! _travolta_

yeah, we can do that, only we'd have to leave out the sun and moon rise and set times, cause they'd be different depending on location. but it's certainly a good idea to exchange concepts.
:floating:
okaly dokaly :D

[mothwench]

oh, and just in case you need to find your latitude/longitude points... go here: http://www.astro.com/cgi/aq.cgi?lang=e type in your location where it says birthtown and then do the search, it'll then open a page where your home town is listed along with the coordinates. :smile:

[mucgwyrt]

I did it, but it's missing some "setting" times in the moon... >(

[mothwench]

yeah, i saw that too. there seems to be a pattern of missing ones, maybe it's the new (sorry dark :p ) moon?

[Seren_]

so far i've calculated that for example today/tomorrow, mon, oct. 4/tue, oct. 5 (from sunset to sunset) would be the 7th day of cantlos (song-time)... i think. :twitch:

To further add confusion...we don't necessarily know for sure when the months actually correspond to our modern months...so I've been taught, anyway; or how widespread its use was throughout Celtic countries (or at least it's being questioned, these days). It was found in the remains of a Roman temple of Apollo at Coligny in Ain region in France, and nothing of comparison survives anywhere else (of a similar date, probably 1st century AD, but possibly earlier)...This is important because a lot of conclusions are drawn from Irish comparisons, when really we have no idea if these comparisons are actually relevant.

The months of Samon and Giamonios are perhaps the most interesting months, because they seem to correlate with two months of the Irish (Gaelic) calendar. Samon implies summer, with Giamonios winter (or the warmer and colder halves of the year respectively - there were generally only two seasons).

An inscription which can be seen on the Coligny calendar marked in the month of Samon reads Trinox samoni sindiv, or "The three nights of Samonios today" suggesting that this marked a festival. In 1886, John Rhys gave a lecture linking the apparent similarities between this festival, and this month, between the Irish festival of Samhain (and also the name for the month of November), which we know took place at the end of October/start of November, and along with Beltane seems to have been quite important. The word Samhain is thought to derive from the Irish Gaelic word samhraidhreadh, or "summer's end", placing Samhain, logically, at the end of summer...

Certainly there seems to be a linguistic link between Samhain and Samonios, but they don't necessarily mean the same thing. If Samhain is usually interpreted to mean "summer's end" this doesn't mean Samonios is, or was, and it could equally be interpreted to correlate with the Irish festival of Beltane (if we go with the "two halves" idea), which heralds the summer rather than waves goodbye to it. There doesn't appear to be any connotations of "ending" in Samonios' name, so in theory, October could be the month of Cutios rather than Cantlos.

The translations popularly given for each month (that I've found on the web) all seem to come from Caitlin Matthews work, and it seems to me that she would naturally work on the Samhain=Samonios assumption, as is the most common way of looking at it. But looking at an online Gaulish glossary (http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/gaul.htm), the month of Cantlos ("song month") could equally derive from "cant- (an edge, a circle) ". The Latin for "song" is [I]cantare, if IIRC, so in this case it's not conclusive...I think it could mean either "an edge" or "a song". Etymology is always difficult, but I would add I'm not a linguist in any way.

/ramble

[mothwench]

hmmm, yeah i read about that i think in an article about samhain not being the new year. didn't you post that link?
*grumble* well, damn! :(
mebbe i'll just use the irish calendar then... :huh:

[mothwench]

AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!! nobody really knows, do they? :hairred: now this site's saying october is samon, as in now. :confused: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~darkhand/sat_cal.htm

The Celtic lunar month of Samonios lasts from now through October 27th.

[RubyRose]

Interesting thread. You've certainly peaked my interest ... sorry I don't really have anything useful to add ;)

Bendithion,
RubyRose

[Seren_]

There seem to be conflicting views on the whole subject even amongst pagans. I don't know if you'll find these links useful, I have to get to work so I've only skimmed them:

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/calendar/coli1.html#samonios
http://www.roman-britain.org/coligny.htm
http://bonrhys.idx.com.au/CA/id10.htm
http://bonrhys.idx.com.au/response.htm

They give different views...Just because it might not be true, doesn't mean it isn't.

[Seren_]

The Celtic lunar month of Samonios lasts from now through October 27th.

You know, I'd never heard of this Samhain is on the 15th degree of Scorpio until this year either.

[mothwench]

yeah, i read something along those lines a while ago. it's the astrological date, meaning this year it's on the 6th, 7th or 8th of november. i prefer to stick with the idea of samhain being on the full moon around of october/november.

anyway... macha, have you seen this? http://www.kami.demon.co.uk/gesithas/calendar/todayis.html
is it any good? (pardon my idiocy, but what is daylight savings time?)

[mothwench]

There seem to be conflicting views on the whole subject even amongst pagans. I don't know if you'll find these links useful, I have to get to work so I've only skimmed them:

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/calendar/coli1.html#samonios
http://www.roman-britain.org/coligny.htm
http://bonrhys.idx.com.au/CA/id10.htm
http://bonrhys.idx.com.au/response.htm

They give different views...Just because it might not be true, doesn't mean it isn't.
thankies. :smile: some i already have in my bookmarks, but the last one is very good. _wiz_

[Seren_]

Daylight saving time is when the clocks are turned forward an hour in March or April. I think it's basically Britsh Summer Time, as opposed to GMT (when the clocks are turned back for winter). It's supposed to help farmers or something.

[skilly-nilly]

yeah, i read something along those lines a while ago. it's the astrological date, meaning this year it's on the 6th, 7th or 8th of november. i prefer to stick with the idea of samhain being on the full moon around of october/november.

anyway... macha, have you seen this? http://www.kami.demon.co.uk/gesithas/calendar/todayis.html
is it any good? (pardon my idiocy, but what is daylight savings time?)

In some countries (Northerly ones) the country unit agrees to jump an hour ahead in the Spring and to drop back an hour in the Fall in order to have the standard day more closely approximate the daylight hours--I believe it's also called 'Summer Time'

As for time-keeping on a yearly basis, I make up a sheet of the 5 moon stages forming a row across the top with 13 spaces under it. I add 1 additional blank space after the dark-of-the-moon. So I have 6 columns down the page. The moons are the heading, and there follow 13 rows with 6 boxes in each row--the moon stages and a blank at the end. I put in the roman calandar dates for the moon stages in the appropriate box and, at the end of each moon, I give it a name in the empty box.

I use both traditional names and event-based names, whatever seems most correct for the moon. So a moon might be called 'Irish Festival' or 'Strawberry-Ripe' or 'Oestra Moon' depending on what seemed most important to the time.

I incline more to folk-ways than astrology, and I believe that ancient peoples did too. As for my take on the placement of Samhein---the astrological time or what? I like the full moon as a celabratory point (sensible in a non-electric technology).

Which Full Moon? I incline towards after hard frost as a marker, since it's the holiday of thinning out the herds to only what one has feed enough to keep for the Winter. The Death Holiday for ancestors and sheep as well..... :shot: _cloud9_

Several of the holidays have specific markers agriculturally/archeologically-- hawthorn blooming, corn (grain ) ripening, berries ripe, harvest home.....and, of course there will always be a full moon following that event.

Since I have access to news sources that track the seasonal events astronomically I acknowledge them, but I don't get too worried about exact celebratory time either.

:fofftopic really, for the Coligny Calendar, but I wanted to add a touch of ignorance to the thread.
:fpoke: , skilly-nilly

[Ben Gruagach]

I did it, but it's missing some "setting" times in the moon... >(

I think the "missing spots" for rise and set are due to the rising happening on one day and the setting happening on another.

For example, I used that military site to calculate the moonrise and moonset for 2004 for where I'm located (Minneapolis, MN USA) and it shows on Oct. 21st a gap for the moonset time.

That's because the day before, the moon rose at 14:12 and set the same day, at 22:43. But on the 21st, the moon rises at 14:50 and doesn't set until the wee hours of the 22nd, at 00:02 (that's two minutes after midnight.) There is not moonset on the 21st, just a moonrise.

Does that make sense?

The confusion is really due to the way they formatted the chart. They've got moonrise in a column, and moonset in the column beside it. But the moon doesn't always rise and then set on the same calendar day.

[mothwench]

[QUOTE]In some countries (Northerly ones) the country unit agrees to jump an hour ahead in the Spring and to drop back an hour in the Fall in order to have the standard day more closely approximate the daylight hours--I believe it's also called 'Summer Time'

As for time-keeping on a yearly basis, I make up a sheet of the 5 moon stages forming a row across the top with 13 spaces under it. I add 1 additional blank space after the dark-of-the-moon. So I have 6 columns down the page. The moons are the heading, and there follow 13 rows with 6 boxes in each row--the moon stages and a blank at the end. I put in the roman calandar dates for the moon stages in the appropriate box and, at the end of each moon, I give it a name in the empty box.

I use both traditional names and event-based names, whatever seems most correct for the moon. So a moon might be called 'Irish Festival' or 'Strawberry-Ripe' or 'Oestra Moon' depending on what seemed most important to the time.

that sounds neat :floating: i plan to add my personal feelings of the individual moons as well, among lots of other things.

I incline more to folk-ways than astrology, and I believe that ancient peoples did too. As for my take on the placement of Samhein---the astrological time or what? I like the full moon as a celabratory point (sensible in a non-electric technology).

Which Full Moon? I incline towards after hard frost as a marker, since it's the holiday of thinning out the herds to only what one has feed enough to keep for the Winter. The Death Holiday for ancestors and sheep as well..... :shot: _cloud9_
that's an excelent idea. :smile: great way of looking at it.

[skilly-nilly]

yeah, i read something along those lines a while ago. it's the astrological date, meaning this year it's on the 6th, 7th or 8th of november. i prefer to stick with the idea of samhain being on the full moon around of october/november.


After my last post, I was folding laundry. And thinking (since folding laundry isn't tooo mentally taxing). I was thinking about how my ideas could be disagreed with (disagreement is the spice of life after all) and the thought arose that the DRIUDS could, of course, know when the degree of Scorpio occoured because the DRIUDS were the LEARNED WISE PEOPLE...so Samhein could have been astronomically accurately placed; the DRIUDS would instruct the common people.
Even if the DRIUDS cared about astrology, I (as a common person) could not figure anything astronomically and freely admit it. However, as a gardener with frost-sensitive plants in my garden, I can not only tell you when the first killing frost was but also exactly where in my garden it froze and where it didn't. (The nastursiums by the front door froze last night, the morning glory on the back wall didn't). I was mentally reviewing frost-sensitive plants that could have been used as historical markers, when I had an inspiration!
:bigredgri :T

PUMPKINS are very frost sensitive!!! :kooky:

Soooo, the Druids could have used the frosting of the Great Pumpkin God (also known as 'Sam Hein') as the marker for the celebration of the Lord of Death in His personna of a Sacred Jack-O-Lantern being freed from His confining vines and transformed from a squash :stomp: into a God of the Dark!!!

_whistle_ *hands out baby-fat candles*

Of course, so as to bring the celebration into Wicca-esque (the Old Religion ) balance, the Sacred Jack-O-Lantern has to share His throne with Colcannon, the Ancient Irish Potato Goddess !!

:bouncybob How about it???

[mothwench]

:bouncybob How about it???

:lol: how about some of whatever you've been smokin?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Skilly you are too much. :hehehehe:

[Ben Gruagach]

As for time-keeping on a yearly basis, I make up a sheet of the 5 moon stages forming a row across the top with 13 spaces under it. I add 1 additional blank space after the dark-of-the-moon. So I have 6 columns down the page. The moons are the heading, and there follow 13 rows with 6 boxes in each row--the moon stages and a blank at the end. I put in the roman calandar dates for the moon stages in the appropriate box and, at the end of each moon, I give it a name in the empty box.

Would you mind telling us what those 5 moon stages are? I'm only familiar with four:
waxing moon
full moon
waning moon
new moon/ dark moon (they're the same thing, right?)

Thanks.

[mucgwyrt]

Dont the clocks go back on halloween? :D

[mucgwyrt]

moth - no, it's not. It tells us that it's the 322nd day of January or some such nonsense :lol:

One problem skilly - we dont grow pumpkins in britain :lol:
We used to use turnips for lanterns, even when I was a kid. Pumpkins on halloween is a noo thing :)

[mucgwyrt]

I split the dark and new moon, so I make it 5. Not everyone does that though, because then it doesnt fit in with the maiden-mother-crone-death thingy ;)

[mothwench]

Would you mind telling us what those 5 moon stages are? I'm only familiar with four:
waxing moon
full moon
waning moon
new moon/ dark moon (they're the same thing, right?)

Thanks.
i always thought so. see my "new moon roly-poly".


:2G:


i'm in desparate need for nantonos to knock some sense into this thread. skilly, stop going on about pumpkins and potatoe goddesses. :T please.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

moth - no, it's not. It tells us that it's the 322nd day of January or some such nonsense :lol:

One problem skilly - we dont grow pumpkins in britain :lol:
We used to use turnips for lanterns, even when I was a kid. Pumpkins on halloween is a noo thing :)

Sweetie, she was joking. Hence the additional reference to the Colcannon, the ancient Potatoe Goddess.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

i always thought so. see my "new moon roly-poly".


:2G:


i'm in desparate need for nantonos to knock some sense into this thread. skilly, stop going on about pumpkins and potatoe goddesses. :T please.

Too bad he's in Sweden, eh?

[mucgwyrt]

Too bad he's in Sweden, eh?
i KNOW! How inconsiderate of him! :rolleyes:

[Ben Gruagach]

I split the dark and new moon, so I make it 5. Not everyone does that though, because then it doesnt fit in with the maiden-mother-crone-death thingy ;)

How do you identify the new moon then, since I believe most charts that list the new moon are actually listing the dark moon phase?

Is the new moon for you the first hint of light on the moon after the dark moon phase then? Wouldn't that just be the next time the moon rises after the dark moon?

Just trying to understand.

[mucgwyrt]

How do you identify the new moon then, since I believe most charts that list the new moon are actually listing the dark moon phase?

Is the new moon for you the first hint of light on the moon after the dark moon phase then? Wouldn't that just be the next time the moon rises after the dark moon?

Just trying to understand.
Well, the way I was taught (although by a coven mother, it was not a wiccan coven/family) is that the new moon is the time at which the first slip of white can be seen, and the dark moon is the night/few nights preceding it.

That's ok, I never get funny with people for questioning my logic :lol:

[mothwench]

Too bad he's in Sweden, eh?

_travolta_
oh, is that where he is? i haven't got a clue about things lately, this is cause i've hardly been following the gingerwitch thread, i've got so little time these days. :( when's he back then?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

_travolta_
oh, is that where he is? i haven't got a clue about things lately, this is cause i've hardly been following the gingerwitch thread, i've got so little time these days. :( when's he back then?

Umm, actually Switzerland. I always mix up Sweden and Switzerland for some reason. Something about more conferences and meetings. Not sure when he's back. He left a quick msg in the gw thread this morning. He left without saying anything. :wah:

[skilly-nilly]

How do you identify the new moon then, since I believe most charts that list the new moon are actually listing the dark moon phase?

Is the new moon for you the first hint of light on the moon after the dark moon phase then? Wouldn't that just be the next time the moon rises after the dark moon?

Just trying to understand.

I perceive the Moon phases as:
Sliver of moon (I call this 'new')
1/2 full (waxing)
Full
1/2 empty (waning/gibbous)
not perceptable (dark of the moon)

Some calenders call the dark of the moon 'new' and some call it 'dark'--I buy calendars with little pictures rather than names.


Sorry about cetting carried away with the anacronistic/historically innacurate pumpkins and potatos---the fact that pumpkins are frost-sensitive inspired me with maddness :crazyman: , skilly-nilly

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Sorry about cetting carried away with the anacronistic/historically innacurate pumpkins and potatos---the fact that pumpkins are frost-sensitive inspired me with maddness :crazyman: , skilly-nilly

I think it's that purple hair dye that's getting to you. :tongueout

[Wyrdsister]

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneYear.html
fill in form b, and click on calculate table. I've tried several times to load up this page, and it never works. Is this URL correct? Can anyone else get into it?

And mothwench, great idea for your own calendar! I may get creative and do one of my own. (nothing fancy, just printed paper, folded in half and stapled down the middle) Just for fun I might add colouring pages! :D You know, for when you're bored at work and just want to doodle, you can do something pagany. ;)

BB,
Wyrdsister

[mucgwyrt]

I've tried several times to load up this page, and it never works. Is this URL correct? Can anyone else get into it?

And mothwench, great idea for your own calendar! I may get creative and do one of my own. (nothing fancy, just printed paper, folded in half and stapled down the middle) Just for fun I might add colouring pages! :D You know, for when you're bored at work and just want to doodle, you can do something pagany. ;)

BB,
Wyrdsister
Works for me!

[Wyrdsister]

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and the US gov is blocking all Canucks. :T :lol:

Wyrdsister

[Ben Gruagach]

I've tried several times to load up this page, and it never works. Is this URL correct? Can anyone else get into it?

It usually works for me, but it is dreadfully slow. And right now it does seem to be down.

Check out this webpage (http://www.ameritech.net/users/paulcarlisle/MoonCalendar.html) too -- it's not quite a list of moonrise and moonset times, but it does produce a calendar showing the moon phases for a month using pictures.

http://www3.telus.net/lmcnish/darksky/ is another interesting page -- it does calculate the moonrise and moonset times for a month (you need to be able to fill in your longitude, latitude, and time zone info -- which you can get from http://www.astro.com/cgi/aq.cgi?lang=e and http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/) The calendar with the moon info can be a bit slow to calculate but the results are worth it -- it gives pictures of the moon phase for each day as well as the moonrise, moonset, and other info.

[Ben Gruagach]

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and the US gov is blocking all Canucks. :T :lol:

Wyrdsister

I'm Canadian too but I'm in Minnesota right now, and the site isn't working here either.

[mothwench]

not working here either, maybe their server's down. hmmmm, the us navy's server... down... :T bwahahahahaaa!



:2G: should we be scared?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Just what have you and banon been up to mothy? :eyez:

[Seren_]

I hear there are problems with servers in Mexico at the moment (bad weather's knocked a lot of stuff out, apparently). If it's run through there, then that might explain it? It worked for me when I clicked on it a few days ago.

[Kern]

Just saying thanks for this thread......From what I HAVE READ, the first month of Samon is at Beltaine correct and the month of Giamos(sp?) is at Samhain.
But when does a month begin? On the full moon,the first quarter as it says on http://bonrhys.idx.com.au/CA/id10.htm Fourth, evidence exists that supports the contention that the months began on the first quarter of the moon, when the moon is located directly overhead at sundown, at the beginning of the Celtic daily period or the new moon.I thought it began on the full moon and that festivals were always kept on the full moon?

[mothwench]

interesting site, kern, thanks. :smile: but forgive me if i don't dwell there too much, cause it's australian, and i don't want to confuse myself even more than i already have. (southern and northern hemisphere confusion)

[mothwench]

I thought it began on the full moon and that festivals were always kept on the full moon?

so did i, and i think i'll just do my calendar that way, regardless of whether i'm sure it's right or not. i wanted to go for historical accuracy, but i suppose in this case there is no one certain solution, is there?

[Kern]

interesting site, kern, thanks. :smile: but forgive me if i don't dwell there too much, cause it's australian, and i don't want to confuse myself even more than i already have. (southern and northern hemisphere confusion)
LOL yeah it is confusing... :uhhuhuh:

[Kern]

Im sticking to the full moon way,I have read more pointing to that way than any other,but thats my choice...

[mothwench]

well, kern what do you think? am i right in assuming right about now is mid-cantlos, and samonios will begin on the next full moon?
:spaceman:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

well, kern what do you think? am i right in assuming right about now is mid-cantlos, and samonios will begin on the next full moon?
:spaceman:

Mothwench, if you can get a hold of Cormac's Glossary you might benefit from taking a look at it. According to Cormac the Irish name for November was Gamain, the cognate of the Gaulish Giaminios.

Furthermore the Gaulish word samos means summer and giamos is winter. There is no evidence of the IE suffix -oni- meaning "end of." Whereas it is believed that the Irish Samhain is derived from sam (summer) and the suffix fuin (end of).

Personally it makes more sense to me that Samonios falls in the summer, not the beginning of winter. Though that does not preclude the festival Samhuin from falling in Giaminios.

Edit to Add: Have you read the article Samhain Is Not the Celtic New Year (http://bonrhys.idx.com.au/explosion.htm)? It brings up some very interesting points. Here is another link to responses (http://bonrhys.idx.com.au/response.htm) to that article.

[mothwench]

yeah, i read that. :sadman: it's all so confusing. the article brings up some interesting issues. so if you were doing this, you would say this month is in fact cutios? and put samhain on the coming full moon, the first day of giamonios?

thing is though, where do the people from this website get the translations for the meanings of the months from? http://www.hobsgreen.com/calendar/coligny.html
Stay-home time, Time of ice and Time of winds aren't exactly fitting names for the summer months. did they make them up, do you think?
:huh:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Those names come from Caitlin Matthew's The Celtic Tradition. I'm not sure of her sources for those names, as I've not read that book.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I'd also love to know how she gets the meaning Seed Fall for Samonios, as most sources state that samos/samh mean summer.

[mothwench]

Those names come from Caitlin Matthew's The Celtic Tradition. I'm not sure of her sources for those names, as I've not read that book.
yeah, i just looked up caitlin matthews on amazon, and she seems to put a lot of unfounded new age stuff in her books.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Yes she does, unfortunately. She does also have some other good stuff though, she she is not usually discounted outright as opposed to say McCoy, Conway or Monroe.

[Nantonos]

Those names come from Caitlin Matthew's The Celtic Tradition. I'm not sure of her sources for those names, as I've not read that book.

I'm not sure that reading her book would give you any of her sources :wtf:

[Nantonos]

thing is though, where do the people from this website get the translations for the meanings of the months from? http://www.hobsgreen.com/calendar/coligny.html
Stay-home time, Time of ice and Time of winds aren't exactly fitting names for the summer months. did they make them up, do you think?
:huh:

Those are all made up names, not translations. The link with Coligny month names is merely to give the caual reader an impression that these fanciful names are rooted in ancient historical practice.

This is a fairly common tactic among newage authors.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I'm not sure that reading her book would give you any of her sources :wtf:

Considering that the one book I have of hers has no sources, I doubt that one would either.

[Nantonos]

Just saying thanks for this thread......From what I HAVE READ, the first month of Samon is at Beltaine correct and the month of Giamos(sp?) is at Samhain.

That is one of the two popular theories, and is the one that derives mainly from looking at the actual Gaulish names. Its also the thory I favor. The other theory ties Irish Samhain to Gaulish Samonios, mainly because of the need to give a mediaeval Christian calendar a respectable Pagan back-story.

But when does a month begin? On the full moon,the first quarter as it says on http://bonrhys.idx.com.au/CA/id10.htm or the new moon.I thought it began on the full moon and that festivals were always kept on the full moon?

Why do you say the full moon?

Here is what Pliny the Elder says (Natural Histories, 16, 249) while discussing the Druids and misletoe and oak trees
But misletoe is only found on these oaks very rarely. When it is found, a great ritual surrounds its collection, especially on the sixth day of the lunar cycle - this is from when these tribes count the first days of the months and the year - and after every thirty years of a new generation, because at that point it is stil gaining strength and not even half its full size. They welcome the moon with a local word which translates as 'all things healed', and prepare a ritual sacrifice and feast beneath a tree.

Six days in the lunar cycle would be the clear appearance of the waxing crescent of the moon. Since the Coligny calendar is a five year calendar, thirty years would be six cycles, too.

[Nantonos]

I came across a web page claiming the ninth day of the moon. Its also littered with ellipsis ... not sure ... why. And most of its links are broken.
http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/hermann.moisl/sel248/pliny.htm

And here is an 1850's English translation that says fifth day (!!)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Plin.+Nat.+16.115

So I checked the original Latin and sure enough, it really is six days

250
est autem id rarum admodum inventu et repertum magna religione petitur et ante omnia sexta luna, quae principia mensum annorumque his facit et saeculi post tricesimum annum, quia iam virium abunde habeat nec sit sui dimidia. omnia sanantem appellant suo vocabulo. sacrificio epulisque rite sub arbore conparatis duos admovent candidi coloris tauros, quorum cornua tum primum vinciantur.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Pliny_the_Elder/16*.html
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0138&layout=&loc=16.250

[Nantonos]

Oh and while I am talking to myself and whining on about crappy translations, I see that the 'white cloak' in which the mistletoe is allegedly caught (in the 19th century English translations) does not occur in the Latin either. The color is not given, and the term used is sagum which is a Gaulish word meaning a coarse woolen hooded cloak, as depicted on assorted stauary from Gaulish plowmen to the genii culculatti.

[Seren_]

Oh and while I am talking to myself and whining on about crappy translations, I see that the 'white cloak' in which the mistletoe is allegedly caught (in the 19th century English translations) does not occur in the Latin either. The color is not given, and the term used is sagum which is a Gaulish word meaning a coarse woolen hooded cloak, as depicted on assorted stauary from Gaulish plowmen to the genii culculatti.

That's interesting :hmmmmm:

[mothwench]

Those are all made up names, not translations. The link with Coligny month names is merely to give the caual reader an impression that these fanciful names are rooted in ancient historical practice.

This is a fairly common tactic among newage authors.
poo!!! :sadman: i had reckoned the site was very good, after having read "problems with the celtic tree calendar" i had deemed it bs-free. damn. :sadeyes:

ah well, enough site-mourning. welcome to my calendar project monster thread, nantonos. _pounce_ i've been anxiously awaiting your posts here. :smile:

[mothwench]

well, you raise some interesting points. i wasn't aware that pliny said that about the six-day-old moon being the first day of the month. ( :2G: can i make a confession here, people? this is when i really really hate being a reconstructionist, there is just so much digging to do! i can honestly say i've had brief moments of culminating exasperation in which i contemplate using the dreaded tree calendar or even just a normal calendar with "the wheel of the year", including kriss kringle and all the rest of the gods 'r' us gang. :hairred: ) *takes deep breaths*

right, where was i? okay, so now we have the months start on the sixth day of the moon, and the month previously thought of as samonios (october/november) is in fact giamonios. so where does that put the new year? at beltaine?
and if those translations on that website are just made up names, how do i find out about the real translations? :huh: do you know them? what does giamonios mean?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Giamos means winter. Not sure what exactly the -oni- suffix adds to it.

[Nantonos]

Giamos means winter. Not sure what exactly the -oni- suffix adds to it.
Giamon means winter. The -os ending seems to signify month. Gaulish has a case system, so Giamoni is genitive meaning 'of Winter'. Thus Giamonios 'month of Winter'.
Samon, genitive Samoni, month Samonios, month of Summer.
Lambert, Pierre-Yves (1997) La Langue Gauloise. Editoons Errance, Paris. 1st edition. p. 110

[Nantonos]

Of the other months, here are translations (real ones) that I have been able to find.

Ogronn/Ogron, genitive Ogroni
Cold. derives from a PIE *ogro- similar to Welsh oer (cold), Old Irish úar, modern Irish fuar (cold)

Anagan/Anagtio, genitive Anagantio, Anagtios
Protective? Derives from Gaulish aneg- or anag- as seen in a title of Apollo, Anextlo-maros, great protector.

Cantlos/Gantlos, genitive Cantli
Singing? From Gaulish verb can- singing, chanting derived from PIE *kan-tlo, similar to Old Irish céol (music), Welsh cathl (chant)

Simivis/Sem.V genitive forms Simivisonn, Semiviso, Simiviso
(Simivisonna is the name in the first intercalary month)
Equal or Half Spring. PIE *ves (the v has a circumflex below the letter, I can't type it), Latin ver, Greek έ̓αρ Welsh gwanwyn (spring) Old Welsh gviannvin (spring). From the Latin, English verdant and vernal.

These are all from Lambert pp.110-111.

Note that Eqvos does not mean horse month, necessarily, sinc hors was epos. QV seems to have been a different sound with a seperately enunciated U or V sound, two syllables, not the one we would expect in English.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Just to add some confusion to the names/meanings of the months Nantonos just posted, I'm going add the information found in Alexie Kondratiev's The Apple Branch

On page 223, he indicates that he is of a differing opinion as to when Samonios and Giamonios fall. He states Samonios and Giamonios mean "end of summer" and "end of winter" respectively and so places Samonios as October/November and Giamonios as April/May.

On page 224 he has the following suggestions for meanings of the names of some of the other months.

Kondratiev states that Dumannios likely means "the dark month" and could be related to the Breton and Cornish names for November, miz Du and mis Du (black month) respectively.

He lists a couple of possibilities for Riuros. The first is "frost month." It could also be derived from the Old Irish reo which means "dense darkness." Thirdly there is the possibility that it is related to the elements ro-iuo, "great feast, great libation;" if this were the case that would give the name as "month of the great feast." However that would make the phrase Deuoriuos Riuros mean "great divine feast of the month of the great feast." Very clumsy.

Anagantios he seems to believe means "not-going" and thus the month of name can be interpreted as the "stay-at-home month."

Ogronios he states is the "end of the cold," an appropriate name for the first name of spring.

He suggests that Cutios might have something to with rain, but gives no definitive answer as he's not real sure on this one.

Simiuisonnos, in Kondratiev's words "almost certainly means 'halfway through summer," with uisonns as a more precise term than samos for the quarter extending from May through July-this month being appropriately in the middle of the period."

He does go with the horse interpretation of Equos, though he does admit that what with the Gualish rendering of horse was epos at that time, there is doubt in regards to that meaning.

Deriving Elembiuios from the Old Celt stem eln- (deer) he determines that Elembiuios probably means "deer month." However he does mention that it could instead be derived from elu- (many, various) and embi (on either side, among), joined with a suffix of unknown meaning.

Edrinios he states to be the first month of Harvest, meaning "end of the heat."

Regarding Cantlos he agrees with the above interpretation, "song month."

The intercalcary month, Antaranos, he says is appropriately named is it means "in-between month."

I wish that he had given more etymology for the above, as on only a few does he give the root word from he interprets his meanings.

Have any thoughts on this Nantonos, mothwench?

[Nantonos]

Talking of Alexei, he recently (on the Imbas list) pointed to similarities between the Hindu calendar and the Coligny one. I can't post his comment here but I found something on a public website thatmakes a similar point:

Calculation of the date of Shivaratri
The lunar month has 30 lunar days,
consisting of a bright fortnight (Shukla Paksha) and a dark fortnight
(Krishna Paksha). Each fortnight consists of 15 lunar days or
15 tithis. A period of one lunar month is said to have elapsed when
the moon, beginning from the celestial longitude of the sun completes
one revolution around the zodiac and coincides with the position
(celestial longitude) of the sun.
http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1995_Feb_2/msg00086.html

This is indeed very like the MAT/ANMAT divisions

Interesting that in French, the word they use for a two week period (in British English, a fortnight) literally translates as "fifteen days".

[mucgwyrt]

Talking of Alexei, he recently (on the Imbas list) pointed to similarities between the Hindu calendar and the Coligny one. I can't post his comment here but I found something on a public website thatmakes a similar point:


http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1995_Feb_2/msg00086.html

This is indeed very like the MAT/ANMAT divisions

Interesting that in French, the word they use for a two week period (in British English, a fortnight) literally translates as "fifteen days".
and let me guess, fourteen nights? ;)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I must have missed that on the Imbas list...will have to go back through and look for that.

But yes that is an interesting comparisons between the Hindu and Coligny calendars. Though there seem to be quite a few similarities between the two, which I'm sure comes from their shared IE roots.

[mothwench]

thanks so much for all the info and translations, everybody. :smile: so i've got less time now than i even thought, seeing as i've got to start it six days after the new moon... so i'll get down to it, if it turns out any good, i'll show you all. :smile:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

What if it doesn't turn out good? Will you still show us? _inabox_

[mothwench]

Of the other months, here are translations (real ones) that I have been able to find.

Ogronn/Ogron, genitive Ogroni
Cold. derives from a PIE *ogro- similar to Welsh oer (cold), Old Irish úar, modern Irish fuar (cold)

okay... supposing samonios is april/may that would make ogronios, august/september, "cold". seems unlikely.

Simivis/Sem.V genitive forms Simivisonn, Semiviso, Simiviso
(Simivisonna is the name in the first intercalary month)
Equal or Half Spring. PIE *ves (the v has a circumflex below the letter, I can't type it), Latin ver, Greek έ̓αρ Welsh gwanwyn (spring) Old Welsh gviannvin (spring). From the Latin, English verdant and vernal.
"half-spring" in november/december... hmmmmmm... :sadman:

[mothwench]

What if it doesn't turn out good? Will you still show us? _inabox_

oh, allright. :smile: though i'm still not entirely sure where to put the months. :spaceman: those translations from the apple branch seem reasonable, i just wish he'd given the roots for each name, as you said.


edited to add: :huh: what is Deuoriuos Riuros actually?

[Nantonos]

okay... supposing samonios is april/may that would make ogronios, august/september, "cold". seems unlikely.

"half-spring" in november/december... hmmmmmm... :sadman:

Yeah, I know. That puzzled me too.

I see Mòrag posted from the Apple Branch - while the author is very erudite especially on Insular Celtic matters, the Apple Branch is a mass market book intended to give a consistent and Celtic-like Wicca, so should not be taken as an academic work. In particular, some of the 'translations' are not derived from linguistics but from "if this month was at this time then ..."

However, following Mòrag's lead I checked out Dvmannios in

Delamarre, Xavier (2001) "Dictionnaire del a Langue Gauloise" Editions Errance, Paris

on p.128 is an entry for dubus, dubis "black" with assorted examples from personal names, place names especially in what is now called the Black Forest), river names, ,etc and then relates this with Old Irish dub, Old Welsh dub- Welsh du- Old Cornish duw Breton du and PIE *dubus. To which one might add modern Scottish Gaelic 'sgean dubh'. So yeah.

Looking on p.218 of the same book I see rio- meaning "free" which I will post separately on as its both long and interesting :)

Anagantios as 'not travelling' seems plausible, Delamarre p.38 gives a good etymology (although the primary ref is Olmstead on the calendar so there is a risk of a circular argument). Delmarre eventualy translates this as 'name of the fourth month' :)

Ogronios on p.202 is indeed 'cold', no 'end of'. Lets leave it as cold.

Okay now sorry about this _tomatoe_ but I had an idea :idea: lets ignore whatever the mediaeval Irish calendar did and not try to pre-judge Coligny to make it fit in, but take the month names as they stand.

Lets also note that the big festival where a representatiive from each of the Gaulish nations came to the Condate altar at Lyons was on 1 August, and postulate that this was perhaps a pre-existing 'gathering together' festival (such as the one Caesar mentions where representatives gather in the territory of the Carnutes) that was transplanted into the Roman solar calendar at about the same time of year.

That gives us:

Samonios "summer" August (hottest time, well duh)
Duman "~dark" September (fall equinox, getting darker)
Rivros "~free?" October
Anagantios "" November
Ogronios "cold" December
Cvtios "" January
Giamonios "winter" February (colldest time, plausible)
Simivissonna "half spring" March (half in sense of equi-nox, half light and half dark)
Eqvos "" April
Elembiuos "stag or hind" May
Edrinios "" June
Cantiios "singing" July

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Interesting theory Nantonos...will have to ponder this. I remember reading (will have to pull out book when I get a chance) that there is also the suggestion that Samonios might fall right around the Summer Solstice so that would start the calendar in the time of frame of June/July (if you account for the 11 day shift that occured when switching calendars it would be right about July 1 instead of June 20-23rd). But then that would throw off the meanings of the names.

Unfortunately the only book I have out at this time (most of my books are boxed in the basement until we move and can unpack them) that goes into any real discussion of the Coligny Calendar is Alexie's Apple Branch. The others I have out are really just an overview of Celtic history and only mention the calendar briefly, without going into explinations of the meanings of the months, etc.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I just found something else, though not necessarily from a scholarly series of books, Llewellyn's Sabbat series, Anna Franklin's Lammas (the best and most scholarly of the bunch, well researched) has a comment that might be applicable in this discussion. Perhaps in your lovely Gaulish dictionary you can look it up and see if it's a possibility Nantonos.


According to the Gaulish Celtic Coligny Calendar, Lughnasa would have fallen during the month called Elembios, meaning "claim time," perhaps referring to the tribal gatherings at this time where claims would have been resolved. This month corresponds to our late July, early August.

Lammas, Anna Franklin and Paul Mason, Appendix 2, page 299

[Nantonos]

Interesting theory Nantonos...will have to ponder this.

I look forward to reading the results of your ponderings.

I remember reading (will have to pull out book when I get a chance) that there is also the suggestion that Samonios might fall right around the Summer Solstice so that would start the calendar in the time of frame of June/July (if you account for the 11 day shift that occured when switching calendars it would be right about July 1 instead of June 20-23rd).
No, don't bring in 11 day shifts.
Firstly, that was a cumulative error in the 16th to 19th centuries when the countries of Europe switched from Julian to Gregorian - the error would have got bigger than 11 if they had not, and the error was naturally zero when the calendar was introduced, which was the first century, which is when Coligny dates from too apparently
Secondly, these are approximate monthly alignments. Its not a 12 month solar year. Its a 62 month lunar five-year. The date in the modern calendar that a Coligny month starts at moves around, its no more likely to be the first of the current calendar month than any other day.
Its easy to calculate though, its the 6th day of the lunar cycle, six days from the dark of the moon (moon conjunct sun). Well, probably six nights or six sunsets. Although the Rhys material shows the samhain connection for year start was forced, the dusk for day start was not and is clearly attested.

So (moth) to get the start of a month, find the date and time of the dark of the moon, call the nearest sunset after that time sunset one. Count forward to sunset 6 and your month starts then, at sunset.

But then that would throw off the meanings of the names.
Yes it would. Bending meanings by adding in unattested 'end of' (end of summer, end of cold' just seems fishy to me. Making up translations based on european weather patterns based on where the months are assumed tobe, to justify the months being there, is just hopelessly circular too.

Unfortunately the only book I have out at this time (most of my books are boxed in the basement until we move and can unpack them)
But that means you are moving , so is good. :adidas:

that goes into any real discussion of the Coligny Calendar is Alexie's Apple Branch. The others I have out are really just an overview of Celtic history and only mention the calendar briefly, without going into explinations of the meanings of the months, etc.

I can't find my Delamarre second edition either, which is why the quotes in my earlier post were from the first edition.

[Nantonos]

I just found something else, though not necessarily from a scholarly series of books, Llewellyn's Sabbat series, Anna Franklin's Lammas (the best and most scholarly of the bunch, well researched) has a comment that might be applicable in this discussion. Perhaps in your lovely Gaulish dictionary you can look it up and see if it's a possibility Nantonos.
According to the Gaulish Celtic Coligny Calendar, Lughnasa would have fallen during the month called Elembios, meaning "claim time," perhaps referring to the tribal gatherings at this time where claims would have been resolved. This month corresponds to our late July, early August.

Lammas, Anna Franklin and Paul Mason, Appendix 2, page 299

Expanding that out, we have four items of information:

a) there was a meeting of the Gaulish nations ('tribes') to resolve claims. This is correct and comes from Caesar DBG 6.13

... Over all these Druids one presides, who possesses supreme authority among them. Upon his death, if any individual among the rest is pre-eminent in dignity, he succeeds; but, if there are many equal, the election is made by the suffrages of the Druids; sometimes they even contend for the presidency with arms. These assemble at a fixed period of the year in a consecrated place in the territories of the Carnutes, which is reckoned the central region of the whole of Gaul. Hither all, who have disputes, assemble from every part, and submit to their decrees and determinations. ...
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/browse-mixed-new?id=CaeComm&tag=public&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed

b) This meeting was in the summer. We don't know that from the above text and no reference is given. This is why I put it forward as a hypothesis (from the summer date of the later Condate altar meeting) rather than as a known fact.

c) Lammas would have fallen at such and such a month. Well, perhaps, depending on how the months are assumed to start. I guess in this case the Samonios=Samhain and thus 'summer' = "november'" hypothesis was the one used

d) Elembios, meaning "claim time,".
Delmarre first edition p.135:
Elembiu(o)s 'name of the tenth month, month of the Stag'
Attested in the abbreviated forms elemb, elembiu (nominative) and elembi- (genitive)
Delmarre then derives the 'stag' meaning from PIE *elen-(bhos), greek élaphos welsh elain old irish elit (meaning a hind, not a stag). Also goes on to draw parallels with Greek month names éléen Ελάφιος or Attic Ελαφηβολιών, the ninth month when the festival of Artemis the hunter was celebrated.
No mention of claims in this etymology.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

So it sounds like it's a bunch of speculation with nothing to back it up. Hmmmm...

[mothwench]

Okay now sorry about this _tomatoe_ but I had an idea :idea:
i like ideas. :steppy:

That gives us:

Samonios "summer" August (hottest time, well duh)
Duman "~dark" September (fall equinox, getting darker)
Rivros "~free?" October
Anagantios "" November
Ogronios "cold" December
Cvtios "" January
Giamonios "winter" February (colldest time, plausible)
Simivissonna "half spring" March (half in sense of equi-nox, half light and half dark)
Eqvos "" April
Elembiuos "stag or hind" May
Edrinios "" June
Cantiios "singing" July

that's very daring of you. ;) :)
i like it though. it makes sense, except for march being half spring, i don't agree with that one. but it's certainly worth considering making a calendar on those assumptions.
so, using those month names, would i be right in saying that today is the 23rd day of riuros...? (oh damn. riuros or dumanios?)

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Nantonos, in my readings about the Coligny Calendar, one of the things that really stuck out to me was that Beltaine and Lunasdl were the only two of the four feast days marked. Shouldn't these markings make this discussion moot? Because I would imagine that if it is marked on the calendar when Beltaine and Lunsadl fell during that time period, and knowing when they fall now, it should really tell us what months on the Coligny Calendar line up with on our modern calendar, and the debate wouldn't even be necessary.

[Seren_]

Nantonos, in my readings about the Coligny Calendar, one of the things that really stuck out to me was that Beltaine and Lunasdl were the only two of the four feast days marked. Shouldn't these markings make this discussion moot? Because I would imagine that if it is marked on the calendar when Beltaine and Lunsadl fell during that time period, and knowing when they fall now, it should really tell us what months on the Coligny Calendar line up with on our modern calendar, and the debate wouldn't even be necessary.

A festival period (or what seems to be a festival) during Samonios is marked on the Coligny calendar, Trinox samoni sindiv, which I understand to mean "three nights of Samonios today".

This has been taken by some people to indicate that this is the Gaulish equivalent of Samhain - because of the similarities between the month names and the fact that several Irish sources mention Samhain was celebrated over a number of days (three or seven, usually). But the only thing it really indicates is that there are three days during the month of Samonios that were considered important enough, in some way, to be mentioned on the calendar; until we can be more certain of the months, that is.

I think the whole "end of" issue comes from the fact that Samhain is interpreted to mean "the end of summer" from the Old Irish sam "summer" and fuin "end", taken from a few occurrences of the word being rendered something like Samfuin. This seems to have been projected onto some of the Gaulish months, purely by comparison, rather than an actual linguistic...thing :crazyman: braindead for word there.

[Nantonos]

Nantonos, in my readings about the Coligny Calendar, one of the things that really stuck out to me was that Beltaine and Lunasdl were the only two of the four feast days marked. Shouldn't these markings make this discussion moot? Because I would imagine that if it is marked on the calendar when Beltaine and Lunsadl fell during that time period, and knowing when they fall now, it should really tell us what months on the Coligny Calendar line up with on our modern calendar, and the debate wouldn't even be necessary.

Okay, where are they marked? (Yes it would)

[Nantonos]

I think the whole "end of" issue comes from the fact that Samhain is interpreted to mean "the end of summer" from the Old Irish sam "summer" and fuin "end", taken from a few occurrences of the word being rendered something like Samfuin. This seems to have been projected onto some of the Gaulish months, purely by comparison, rather than an actual linguistic...thing :crazyman: braindead for word there.

I think the word you are looking for is pockling although that might only be an en-gb word and also might only apply to people who did lab work at Uni.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Okay, where are they marked? (Yes it would)

I don't know...I just know that I've read that several times. Let me go check...

[Nantonos]

i like ideas. :steppy:

that's very daring of you. ;) :)

Yes it is (extends neck tentatively)

i like it though. it makes sense, except for march being half spring, i don't agree with that one.

What I was thinking there was that it was marking the equinox, the time when light and dark are balanced, half and half.

but it's certainly worth considering making a calendar on those assumptions.
so, using those month names, would i be right in saying that today is the 23rd day of riuros...? (oh damn. riuros or dumanios?)

Well that depends where we are in the cycle. I have seen it argued

Le Contel, Jean-Michel; Verdier, Paul (1997) Un Calendrier Celtique: Le calendrier gaulois de Coligny. Editions Errance, Paris.

that the cycle started on a solar eclipse. Their system is quite complex (they are astronomers, not archaeologists) though.... and they start with the summer solstice in the first intercalary month in year one before samonios. A different system again. In an appendix they give one such start date, the solar eclipse of 23 September 1987, as a date when the solar and lunar calenders were in synch.

In summary we don't know. Since you won't like that answer,

Coligny is 46.38311 N 5.34599 E
http://www.chris.obyrne.com/Eclipses/new-calculator.html
is an eclipse calculator
1999/08/11 10:27:38.3 was a partial eclipse viewable from Coligny and conveniently at the start of august so lets grab that as the start date (dark moon sunset 1)

so start a cycle at sunset on monday 16 August 1999

Does that help?

[Nantonos]

or you could grab 2004 Oct 28: Total Lunar Eclipse, visible from Coligny and work back from then to now.

http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/OH/image1/Fig04-TLE2004Oct28.GIF
http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/OH/OH2004.html
http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/LEmono/TLE2004Oct28/TLE2004Oct28.html

[mothwench]

not a bad idea starting with the lunar eclipse... but somehow that still doesn't tell me which of the two i'd start with. :huh: or am i missing something?

[mothwench]

I don't know...I just know that I've read that several times. Let me go check...
this is intriguing. :2G: and believe me it would be a great relief to me if it were true. :spinnysmi

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

The problem is, while I recall reading (the books are at home) this, I don't recall any of them mentioning which months they were marked as falling in. Which of course makes the information suspect. :2G:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Ahhh, but this is very intriguing!

Go here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0521778522/ref=sib_rdr_next3_ex59/102-1161543-4116154?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=Coligny%20Calendar&p=S024&twc=&checkSum=tiLbkdL5wdeTXu0xMgHyvcASQpUu6O07QuadMOmdXmU%3D&j=1#reader-page

It's an excerpt from Astronomies and Cultures in Early Medieval Europe by Stephen C. McCluskey. It has some great info, but this is the best part (btw, you can hit the arrow and read the next few pages that it continues on).

Further examination of the Calendar of Coligny shows that the calendar divided the year into four equal parts and marked at least on of the mid-quarter festivals. Four days showing the uncommon notation Prinni Lag ... divide the the solar year into four equal portions. These four days, 2 Rivros, 4 Cutios, 2 Equos, and 4 Cantlos, fall near the beginning of the thrid, sixth, ninth, and twelfth months in the lunar calendar. There are two plausible interpretations of these quarter divisions: most likely is that they mark the mid-quarter days of the Insular Celts: Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine, and Lughnasa (falling at the beginning of November, February, May, and August in the Julian calendar). In this case *trinox Samoni sindiu marks the summer solstice. Alternatively, they mark the solstices and equinoxes, in which case *trinox Samoni sindiu marks the mid-quarter festival of Samhain. In either case the calendar reflects both the Celtic mid-quarter days and an attempt to reconcile both solar and lunar phenomena. Whatever procedure the Gauls may in fact have used to regulate their calendar remains uncertain.

So there are actually four days marked off, either the solstices and equinoxes or the four festivals. I do have to say I find this fascinating. And if they are correct that gives you really only two options of where you should place Samonios. Either in June or November. Which I guess is what we were saying before. But it does rather sound like it makes Nantonos's theory not as plausible. Sorry.

There is also a depiction/diagram that marks continuity and change in the solar calendar that you should take a look at.

Now I have to go buy this book and I really don't have the money. ~pouts~

[mothwench]

:woot: that really is very interesting, and it sounds like a great book. i couldn't view the diagram, though, it said page not accessible, or something.
:lol: ah, mòrag, let me tell you about my book list, it's getting longer and longer, and i have no money to buy them, either. and now i want this one, too! *joins in pout*

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

If you refresh the page it should load. That happened to me a couple times too.

Oh gods, you should see my Amazon.com wishlist. I believe there is something like 100 books on it. And that's just the non-fiction I want, with only a couple of exceptions.

[mothwench]

i just counted mine... i've only got fourty-seven. :spinner:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

i just counted mine... i've only got fourty-seven. :spinner:

117. I have 117 books I'm waiting to buy. :twitch: 117 books I've not been able to read that I dieing to purchase. :wah2:

[Nantonos]

not a bad idea starting with the lunar eclipse... but somehow that still doesn't tell me which of the two i'd start with. :huh: or am i missing something?

You realise its a five year, 62 month cycle? It starts with an intercalary month, then Samonios to Cantlos of year one. Then Samonios to Cantlos of year two. Then Samonios to Cvitos of year three, an intercalary month, Giamonios to Cantlos year three. Samonios to Cantlos of year four, Samonios to Cantlos of year five. Repeat ad infinitem.

[Nantonos]

Further examination of the Calendar of Coligny shows that the calendar divided the year into four equal parts and marked at least on of the mid-quarter festivals. Four days showing the uncommon notation Prinni Lag ... divide the the solar year into four equal portions. These four days, 2 Rivros, 4 Cutios, 2 Equos, and 4 Cantlos, fall near the beginning of the thrid, sixth, ninth, and twelfth months in the lunar calendar.

Interesting. Okay.

There are two plausible interpretations of these quarter divisions: most likely is that they mark the mid-quarter days of the Insular Celts: Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine, and Lughnasa (falling at the beginning of November, February, May, and August in the Julian calendar).

Note that the 'cross quarter' terminology is what is called in England; they are called quareter days in Scotland. Yes, they might mark those four days. or four other days (equinoxes and solsitces). Or, indeed, four other days again.

In this case *trinox Samoni sindiu marks the summer solstice.

Possibly.

Alternatively, they mark the solstices and equinoxes, in which case *trinox Samoni sindiu marks the mid-quarter festival of Samhain. In either case the calendar reflects both the Celtic mid-quarter days and an attempt to reconcile both solar and lunar phenomena. Whatever procedure the Gauls may in fact have used to regulate their calendar remains uncertain.

It remains uncertain, but the author is determined that it has to map onto the 20th century 8fold wheell one way or the other. Well, maybe, and maybe not.

So there are actually four days marked off, either the solstices and equinoxes or the four festivals. I do have to say I find this fascinating. And if they are correct that gives you really only two options of where you should place Samonios. Either in June or November.
No, it gives eight possibilties if you accept to force it onto the later 8fold wheel, and a large number of possibilities if you don't.

Which I guess is what we were saying before. But it does rather sound like it makes Nantonos's theory not as plausible. Sorry.
Not to my mind, no. I agree, no one (to my knowledge) has proposed an August start date. But then, i am trying to find what the Gaulish calendar was like, rather than looking for a retrospective claim of antiquity for a mediaeval calendar. So I don't have the extra constraint of trying to make it fit that calendar. it might, but time flows forwards :) coligny can influence (or not) the mediaeval Irish calendar, but the mediaeval one can't influence the first century one.

There is also a depiction/diagram that marks continuity and change in the solar calendar that you should take a look at.

Now I have to go buy this book and I really don't have the money. ~pouts~

It does sound interesting. But as the commentary on the Rhys lectures points out, everyone was taken in by that bit of fiddling where he makes up the start of the year, so its no real surprise that lots of authors all quote the same theory.

[Wodening]

I don't know if this would help with the reconstruction of the Coligny calendar, however, here is an article I have been working on the Anglo-Saxon one. It is not near complete and I still have a section to go, but below is the rough draft:

Englisc Rímbóc
The Anglo-Saxon Calendar



Bede's Account of the Calendar in De Temporum Ratione

One of the least studied things in ancient Anglo-Saxon culture is the old pagan calendar. Yet, it is an area of most interest for many. What we know of the calendar was handed down to us by Bede in his work De Temporum Ratione. Unfortunately, while Bede gave us much information, he also left us in quite a mystery about how the calendar worked. We know not from his information alone whether the months were reckoned by the phases of the moon, and if so, whether they began on the Full or New Moon. We are perplexed how a fixed solar date could be the start of the year in a calendar that appears to be solar lunar (a calendar using both the Sun to keep track of years and the Moon to keep track of months), and even more so by when that fixed date occurs. Still, the information Bede gave us, along with other clues from Anglo-Saxon culture, the practices of other cultures, and comparison with the Icelandic calendar can result in a reliable reconstruction.

Bede begins his account of the old Heathen calendar by saying

Antiqui autem anglorum populi (neque enim mihi congrum videtur aliarum gentium annalem observantiam dicere et meæ reticere) iutxa cursum lunæ suos menses computavere. Unde et a luna hebræorum et græcorum more nomen accipiuiunt; siduidem apud eos luna mona, mensis appellatur monath.

The ancient English peoples -- for it does not seem to me proper to explain the yearly observance of other nations, and to keep silence concerning my own -- reckoned their months by the course of the moon, just as they were named from the moon in Hebrew and Greek. (Charles W, Jones translation)

Thus the mystery begins from the start of his text. Most have thought that "cursum lunæ suos menses computavere (by the course of the moon calculated)" indicates that the months were determined by the phases of the Moon. However, besides keeping track of time through the phases of the Moon, one can also keep track of time by the path the Moon takes through the sky. Using the course of the Moon to keep track of time results in using what modern astronomers call a sideral month, which is 27 days 7 hours and 43 minutes long. Every 27 days the moon returns to the same position in the sky it was 27 days before. The scholar Vaster Guðmundsson believed that this was the form of month the Norse used, and used it in his theoretical reconstruction of the ancient Scandinavian calendar (Guðmundsson. 1924, p.88). It is possible then that the Anglo-Saxons also did the same. However, as Bede draws a comparison to the Greek and Hebrew calendars, we may want to assume that the Anglo-Saxons used a synodic month (a month measured from a phase of the Moon to the next time that phase of the Moon occurs). There are other clues in Bede's account, that indicate this was so, and I will touch on those later. Bede then goes on to name the months of the old Anglo-Saxon calendar and further gives the corresponding Roman month.

Primusqu eorum mesis, quem latini ianuarium vocant, dicitur giuli; deinde februarius, solmonah; martius, hredmonath; aprilis, eosturmonath; maius, thrimilchi; iunius lida; iulius, similiter lida; augustus, vveodmonath; september, halegmonath; october, vvinterfilleth; november, blodmonath; december, giuli eodem quo ianuarius nomine vocatur.

The first month, which the Romans name January, is with them Giuli. Then follow February, Solmónaþ; March, Hrédmónaþ; April, Éosturmónaþ; May, Þrimilchi; June, Líþa; July also Líþa; August, Wéodmónaþ; September, Háligmónaþ; October, Winterfylleþ; November, Blótmónaþ; Decemeber, Giuuli, the same as for January. (Charles W, Jones translation)

At first this may not seem important, however, it shows that the Anglo-Saxon months roughly followed the Roman ones, enough so that Bede could draw correspondences. This shows what we have suspected, that the calendar was a solar lunar one, not a straight lunar calendar. And while it does not rule out the use of the sideral month, it increases the odds that the Anglo-Saxons used a synodic month. Sideral months being shorter would move more within the solar year. Synodic months being closer in length to the Roman fixed months would make for a closer comparison, and not move as much in relation to the seasons as long as intercalary (leap) months were used.

Bede then touches on when the year started. Something he has already hinted at by naming Giuli, the month corresponding to January as the first month.

Incipiebant autem annum ab ocatavo kelendarum ianuariarum die, ubi nunc natalem domini celebramus. Et ipasm noctem nunc nobis sacrosanctam, tunc gentili vocabulo modranect, id est matrum noctem, appellabant, ob causam, ut suspicamur, ceremoniarum quas in ea pervigiles agebant.

They began the year with December 25, the day we now celebrate as Christmas; and the very night to which we attach special sanctity they designated by the heathen term módraniht, that is, the mothers' night --- a name bestowed, I suspect, on account of the ceremonies they performed while watching this night through. (Charles W, Jones translation)

At that time, under the old Julian calendar, December 25 (or eight days before the calends of January as Bede puts it) was also the winter solstice. The problem with this is that if the Anglo-Saxon calendar was a solar lunar calendar, then it could not have a starting point that was a fixed solar date (at least not have such a fixed date and operate with any accuracy). Bede may have confused an Anglo-Saxon pagan mid-winter festival with a New Year's celebration. Or it is possible the actual start of the new year was on the Full or New Moon near the solstice. It is also possible the Anglo-Saxons used a sideral month and somehow managed to reconcile its differences with the solar year (though it would be as difficult to do this as reconciling the start of a lunar calendar using synodic months in such a fashion). Finally, the most distinct possibility perhaps is the Anglo-Saxon Heathens used more than one calendar for more than one purpose. That is they could have used a solar calendar separate from the one Bede presented, and it was the solar calendar whose new year began on December 25. There have been many theories as to why the year began on December 25, ranging from Roman borrowing to influences of Mithraism, but few have thought it the start of a separate calendar. The possibility is distinct however.

The Icelanders, for example, did use a solar calendar which they established in 930 CE in conjunction with the Norse lunar months (which ceased to be lunar), but reformed again in 955. The core of this calendar consisted of two seasons, winter and summer for a year of 364 days or 52 weeks. Each season was 26 weeks long. To this calendar was added one week every seven years as a "leap week," to keep it in line with the solar year (much as a day is added every four years to the Gregorian calendar today). New Year's Day was Veturnætur or "Winter Nights," a time near the Fall equinox. While some scholars have attributed the Icelanders adopting a solar calendar as being due to Classical and Christian influence (via trade relations with the then Christian Anglo-Saxons and Irish), one cannot rule out the possibility a solar calendar was a native idea to most Germanic peoples. The Anglo-Saxons like the Icelanders also had only two seasons, Summer and Winter, and this is even stated by Bede (though elsewhere he refers to four, a comment that can be attributed to his Church education which held there were four seasons, not two). It would not be surprising then if they used a separate solar calendar based on the equinoxes and solstices, perhaps even using weeks for time reckoning much like the Icelanders did. Further it would not be far fetched if they saw Módranect as some sort of marker in this calendar. In Bede's account the start of the year, he notes the start of Winter (while linked to a Full Moon, it would be close to what we know as autumn), the Winter solstice, and the fact months were added after the Summer solstice. It would be difficult therefore to assume that the Anglo-Saxons and Germanic peoples in general could not have kept track of time by the Sun. Bede then goes on to talk about the use of an intercalary month called Þriliða.

cum vero temporibus, hoc est xiii mensium lunarium, annus occurreret, superfluum mensem æstati apponebant, ita ut tunc tres menses simul lida nomine vocarentur, et ob id annus ille thrilidi cognominabatur habens quattuor menses æstatis, ternos ut semper temporum cæsterorum.

When, however, an embolism occurred, that is, a year of thirteen lunar months, they added the intercalated month to the summer, so that in that case three months in succession were called Líþa. Such a year was known as Þrilíþi, having four months of summer, and three of the other seasons. (Charles W, Jones translation)

We know from this statement by Bede that Þriliða was added in some years in the Summer to bring the calendar back in line with the solar cycle. This again is a clue that the calendar was indeed a solar lunar one, most likely using synodic months (using one phase of the Moon to its next occurrence as a way of measuring a month). The Chinese, Hebrews, and even the ancient Romans used similar methods to adjust their calendars.

Item principaliter annum totem in duo tempora, hiemis videlicet et æstatis, dispertiebant - sex illos menses quibus longiores sunt noctinus dies æstati tribuendo, sex reliquos hiemi. Unde et mensem quo hiemalia tempora incipiebant vvinterfilleth apbellabant, composito nomine ab jieme et plenilunio quia videlicet a plenilunio eiusdem mensis hiems sortiretur initium.

The general division of the year was into two seasons, winter and summer, summer comprising the six months in which the days are longer than the nights, and winter the others. Hence the month with which they began the winter season was called Winterfylleþ, a name compounded of the terms for winter and full moon, because from the full moon of that month winter was esteemed to begin. (Charles W, Jones translation)

It is worth noting that the time of Winterfylleþ was also the time the Old Norse started their year (Veturnætur or "Winter Nights"), and there has been speculation on whether or not the actual new year of the calendar presented by Bede did not start at this time also, that Bede was mistaken. That Winter could be used of the entire year and not just the season is apparent to anyone that has studied Old English. The Anglo-Saxons counted years by winters and even had such terms as wintergetel "a number of years" and wintersteal "a one year old stallion." Garman Lord in The Way of the Heathen even theorizes that perhaps the name Winterfylleþ could have meant something closer to "New Year's Day." More important though, what Bede has to say about Winterfylleþ is also a clue that the months began with the Full Moon. Bede goes on to discuss the meaning of the month names, and as such this is his extent of clues on how the calendar operated. For more information on exactly how the calendar worked we must go outside his text to Anglo-Saxon concepts of the day, as well as draw from other cultures with solar lunar calendars.

One of the primary problems with the calendar is determining when the months began. Since few ancient cultures used the sideral month in calendars of this type, we can safely assume perhaps that the ancient Angles, Saxons, and Jutes used a synodic month like the Chinese, Hebrews, ancient Romans, and most other peoples in the world. But then we are faced with the question of when did the months begin? The only clue Bede gives us is in the name of Winterfylleþ, when he states that Winter was said to start from the Full Moon of that month. If Winter started on the Full Moon of Winterfylleþ and each season only had six months (not portions of months but whole months) then we almost must assume that Winterfylleþ began on the Full Moon. Then again Bede states Winter began on the Full Moon of that month, meaning that the month its self might not begin on the Full Moon. For a solution to this dilemma we must look to other cultures with similar ways of seeing times as well as closely related cultures.

A bronze plaque with a calendar used by the Gauls engraved on it was found in Coligny, France, in 1897, and dated to about 50 CE. This calendar consisted of 12 months with names of Celtic origin. Further these months began on the Full Moon. The Gauls had lived in close proximity to the Germanic peoples for centuries. At one point it is possible that some of the Germanic tribes had developed a fascination with Celtic culture (or alternately been subjugated by a Celtic people). Within the Germanic languages there are several Celtic borrowings of great antiquity. These borrowings were words for rulership and warfare. Among them are the modern English word iron, Old English ríce, "kingdom;" and Old English ambeht, "servant." It is possible then that due to Celtic influence that the Anglo-Saxons used the Full Moon as the marker for the start of a new month. Most societies that use a solar lunar calendar however do not use the Full Moon as a starting point for months.

Indeed, there is just as much evidence when we look at other cultures for the Anglo-Saxon calendar beginning its months on the first crescent of the New Moon. Further the evidence is also more convincing when common sense is applied. The first and best argument is that it is difficult to determine precisely when the Full Moon is occurring in Northern Europe. Indeed, it can appear to be full for three days, when in truth, only one of these days is the Full Moon. The New Moon can be almost as difficult to determine, but not quite as difficult. One can always look to the First Crescent of the New Moon, something easy to spot if one is watching for it, and not easily mistakened for another phase. This is precisely the moon phase many cultures such as the Hebrew and Babylonian cultures used. Further, cultures that start their day at sunset, also usually begin their year in the Winter months and their months (if they use a solar lunar calendar) with the New Moon or the First Crescent. The ancient Roman calendar prior to revisions by the Republic also started its months with the First Crescent as did that of the ancient Greek cultures. Perhaps the best evidence arguing for the Anglo-Saxons using the First Crescent is that of the Lithuanian calendar. The Lithuanian calendar not only started its months on the First Crescent of the New Moon, but also had a midwinter celebration the same time as Yule. Oddly enough though it started its year in April (Straižys and Klimka). Perhaps of all Indo-European peoples the Balts have the most in common with the Germanic. Even their religion is very close to the ancient Germanic one with components such as a World Tree, and deities similar to our own such as the thunder god Perkunas who is not a far cry from the ever familiar Þunor (Thor), not to mention a Sun goddess and Moon god. Unfortunately, especially since it may be the closest comparison to the Anglo-Saxon calendar, not much has been written on the Lithuanian calendar in English. Yet considering the close relationship of the Balts to the Germanic peoples, it presents a good argument for the Anglo-Saxon months starting with the First Crescent, and not the Full Moon.

Another clue to the months starting on the First Crescent is when the Anglo-Saxons began their day. Other cultures such as the Hebrew that use the First Crescent as the starting point for their months, start their day at sunset (the Lithuanians seem to be an exception). We find this too with the Anglo-Saxons. Wódenesniht to an ancient Engle was not Wednesday night but Tuesday night; Wednesday began on what we would think of as Tuesday evening. We can also see this start of the day at Sunset with the festivals, for example, Módraniht mentioned by Bede. Modern survivals of this include Halloween (a contraction of "All Hallows Evening"), New Years Eve, and Walpurgis Night. The Old English word niht, not dæg was used for counting, that is one would say "10 nihtas" not "10 dægas" (a modern survival of this is our term fortnight). This too was indicative of cultures that started their months on the First Crescent. We can therefore probably safely assume that therefore that the Anglo-Saxons used the First Crescent as a marker for the start of a month, although we can never be one hundred per cent certain (barring finding a lost document dating from the period. detailing such calendar information).

Other Potential Calendars

As mentioned above, a solar lunar calendar may not have been the only way that the Anglo-Saxons kept track of times longer than a day. There were the two seasons called missera in Old English. We know that they had two seasons, but we do not know if they were used in such a way as the Icelanders later did. For the Icelanders, the missera played a more important role than the solar year. Indeed, their calendar was not based so much on the solar year as it was the half year. As detailed above, their calendar consisted of the two seasons, numbered 26 weeks each. The two seasons were further broken down into weeks. The week has always been a problematic time unit however. Most scholars view it as a borrowing from the Romans, who in turn borrowed it from the Greeks. Ultimately it is seen as having come from the Semitic cultures of the Middle East with its sole purpose being religious. That is scholars feel the week is a manmade time unit with no bearing on astronomical or natural events (unlike the month, the year, the day). The problem is that within the written record of many peoples such as the Celts and Germanics, there is no sign of there not being a 7 day week, or at least a week of some sort. So while scholars can claim that the week is a borrowing, they cannot prove definitively it is a borrowing. This problem is further complicated when one looks at how a week can be used in time keeping. The synodic month is approximately 29 days and 12 hours long. Four seven day weeks could then be used as a rough division of the month (being only a day or so off). This is somewhat confirmed by the origins of the word week which scholars think comes from an Indo-European word meaning "to turn." In other words, the word week might have originally referred to the turning of the phases of the moon (and it also may have been a longer time unit than now). Even there we are on shaky ground as while some consider it a native Germanic term, others see it as coming from Latin vices "recurrances."

While the week as we know it now may be a borrowing, the concept of a unit of time lasting several days (but only a fraction of a month) may not be. The Lithuanians used a nine day week at one point, which makes for a good division of the the sideral month. As mentioned above a sideral month, which is 27 days 7 hours and 43 minutes long. Therefore the week in some form may have always been a Germanic time keeping unit (however, it may not have always been seven days long). Vaster Guðmundsson believed that the Norse used a five day week prior to the borrowing of the seven day week, and used this in his reconstruction of the Norse calendar. However, his week has no bearing on astronomical events either. However, the solar year is more evenly divided by five week periods, and there is an Old Norse legal term referring to such a five day period as a fimmt. There could no doubt be other time units similar to the week we do not know of that the ancient Germanic peoples, and thus the ancient Angles, Saxons, and Jutes may have used. That information though is unfortunately lost if it ever existed.

Regardless, that they could have used a solar calendar similar to the Icelandic one after Roman contact is a certainty. They would have had the time unit of the week, and had all the astronomical knowledge to use one (which they had well before Roman contact). It could well be that such a solar calendar is seen lurking behind the solar lunar one as presented by Bede. He does after all refer to solar events such as the start of the year on the winter solstice and the seasons in his description of the calendar. The only problem is, we can keep on saying "could," as there is no evidence truly for or against the Anglo-Saxons using a solely solar calendar like that of the Icelanders. What we do know is that missrera could also be used to mean years, as its Old Norse cognate missari could also. Indeed, the Norse did not even truly have a term for the whole year. If the missrera then played a more important part in Anglo-Saxon time keeping, they would most certainly had a solar calendar as well.

Other Methods of Telling Time Shorter than a Day

On quite firmer ground than the possible use of a solar calendar is how the Anglo-Saxons divided the day. It would appear that they, like their Norse cousins divided the day into eight even divisions, or stundas (sometimes referred to as a tíd in Old English). Then using a sundial or sol-merca (also called a dægmæl), they could keep time throughout the daylight hours.



Ritual Times

A Reconstruction of the Heathen Anglo-Saxon Calendar



Bibliography

Hutton, Ronald The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles; Their Nature and Legacy

Baity E.C. Archaeoastronomy and Ethnoastronomy so far // Current Anthropology. 1973, 14. p.389-449.

Straižys, Vytautas and Klimka, Libertas (12, Vilnius 2600) Chapter 5. Natural rythms and calendar, COSMOLOGY OF THE ANCIENT BALTS Retrieved 2 Sept., 2004 from http://www.lithuanian.net/mitai/cosmos/baltai5.htm

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

No, it gives eight possibilties if you accept to force it onto the later 8fold wheel, and a large number of possibilities if you don't.


Eight? How eight? According to his argument, the trinox Samoni sindiu has to fall on either the summer solstice or where we celebrate Samhuinn now.

Not to my mind, no. I agree, no one (to my knowledge) has proposed an August start date. But then, i am trying to find what the Gaulish calendar was like, rather than looking for a retrospective claim of antiquity for a mediaeval calendar. So I don't have the extra constraint of trying to make it fit that calendar. it might, but time flows forwards :) coligny can influence (or not) the mediaeval Irish calendar, but the mediaeval one can't influence the first century one.

Ah, but I was saying according to his argument it would rule out your possibility of an August start. Which it does. But if you look beyond his argument, it of course would not. I'm still pondering yours. What reason exactly do you have for the August start date, outside of it being a summer month that is very warm. Why August, instead of for example June when the summer solstice falls and makes a plausable start date as well, and would also make sense to call it the "summer month" by virtue of being the beginning of summer?

It does sound interesting. But as the commentary on the Rhys lectures points out, everyone was taken in by that bit of fiddling where he makes up the start of the year, so its no real surprise that lots of authors all quote the same theory.

I'm not sure that I would agree with everything he brings up, merely that it brought up some intriguing points. I had never heard of the Prinni Lag before, so that is definitely something to look more into. It of course doesn't really

[mucgwyrt]

Wodening: The join of the new year to the past year has always puzzled me, too. After much pondering I'd kind of come to the conclusion that although the new year began on, say, December 25th (22nd now isn't it?), the months didn't change until the new moon. Sound feasible?

[Seren_]

We know not from his information alone whether the months were reckoned by the phases of the moon, and if so, whether they began on the Full or New Moon.

Hey Wodening, there's a note in Bill Griffith's Aspects of Anglo Saxon Magic that says his reckoning of months corresponds with the signs of the zodiac, not the moon...making April, Aries and so on.

:abadpoker I'd give you a poke, but my poker is broken...

[mucgwyrt]

Hey Wodening, there's a note in Bill Griffith's Aspects of Anglo Saxon Magic that says his reckoning of months corresponds with the signs of the zodiac, not the moon...making April, Aries and so on.

:abadpoker I'd give you a poke, but my poker is broken...
Wouldn't that be roughly the same thing? :huh: :whatgives

[Seren_]

I dunno. The zodiac calendar is fairly fixed, isn't it? But the phases of the moon aren't necessarily in synch...

[Nantonos]

I don't know if this would help with the reconstruction of the Coligny calendar, however, here is an article I have been working on the Anglo-Saxon one. It is not near complete and I still have a section to go, but below is the rough draft:

Its fascinating reading and I am still digesting it. Thanks for posting the draft!

It seems there are some references in the text that were not collected into the bibliography - I hope you add them in a subsequent draft. The Bede edition, Guðmundsson. I would also encorage you to turn the bibliography into references, though I appreciate this is more work.

I will (naturally) comment on one specific section:


A bronze plaque with a calendar used by the Gauls engraved on it was found in Coligny, France, in 1897, and dated to about 50 CE. This calendar consisted of 12 months with names of Celtic origin. Further these months began on the Full Moon. The Gauls had lived in close proximity to the Germanic peoples for centuries. At one point it is possible that some of the Germanic tribes had developed a fascination with Celtic culture (or alternately been subjugated by a Celtic people). Within the Germanic languages there are several Celtic borrowings of great antiquity. These borrowings were words for rulership and warfare. Among them are the modern English word iron, Old English ríce, "kingdom;" and Old English ambeht, "servant." It is possible then that due to Celtic influence that the Anglo-Saxons used the Full Moon as the marker for the start of a new month. Most societies that use a solar lunar calendar however do not use the Full Moon as a starting point for months.


What was your source for this?
Why does your source claim a full moon start?

The Coligny calendar is not of 12 months; it is of 62 months over five years; the first and third year have 13 months. (Le Contel & Verdier pp 10-15)

I agree that there are clear borrowings between the adjacent Celtic and Germanic groups (Todd pp.20-28, Wells 107-121)

- as an example the adoption of the name 'reiks' or 'riks' from Gaulish 'rix' which I can't find a ref for, aargh

Lastly I agree that, as your article goes on to show, most societies that use a solar lunar calendar don't use the Full Moon as the start. They use the new crescent. I gave a quote earlier from Pliny that referred to the Gauls also starting their month on the sixth day of the lunar phase, ie the new moon; Ii have not yet seen an argument that Coligny has a full moon start.

Having hopefully added something to (what I realise is a sidebar in your discussion) I now return to reading your informative and interesting post.

Le Contel, Jean-Michel; Verdier, Paul (1997) Un Calendrier Celtique: Le calendrier gaulois de Coligny. Editions Errance, Paris.
Todd, Malcolm (1995) The Early Germans. Blackwell, Oxford.
Wells, Peter (1999) The Barbarians Speak: how the conquered peoples shaped roman europe. Princeton University Press., Princeton & Chichester.

[Nantonos]

I dunno. The zodiac calendar is fairly fixed, isn't it? But the phases of the moon aren't necessarily in synch...

The zodiac is fixed in a solar calendar if its related to twelve equal 30 degree segments starting from the intersection of the ecliptic and the equator (ie the vernal equinox).

It related to particular stars, then it is not entirely fixed but drifts slightly (the precession of the equinoxes). But then, the constellations don't make exact 30 degree segments either.

[Nantonos]

Eight? How eight? According to his argument, the trinox Samoni sindiu has to fall on either the summer solstice or where we celebrate Samhuinn now.

Two solstices, two equinoxes and four Irish fre festivals.

Ah, but I was saying according to his argument it would rule out your possibility of an August start. Which it does. But if you look beyond his argument, it of course would not.

Ah okay I follow you now. Yes, his theory and my theory and the theory that the start is at Beltaine and the theory that the start is an intercalary month at the summer solstice are all mutually exclusive.

I'm still pondering yours. What reason exactly do you have for the August start date, outside of it being a summer month that is very warm. Why August, instead of for example June when the summer solstice falls and makes a plausable start date as well, and would also make sense to call it the "summer month" by virtue of being the beginning of summer?
I thought I introduced that? Condate altar etc?/

I'm not sure that I would agree with everything he brings up, merely that it brought up some intriguing points. I had never heard of the Prinni Lag before, so that is definitely something to look more into. It of course doesn't really
I hadn't either, so I am looking more into that.

Ah okay. Delamarere 1st ed op.cit p.213-214
prinni loudin/laget
notations prinni loudin in the fastes months(matu-) and prinni laget in the néfastes months (anmatu-). The three words are often abbreviated.: prin, pri, also one finds prinno, prino, loud, lo[]d and lage, lag.
A reference is given to Receuil des Inscriptions Gauloise volume 3,279 and 426.
Further discussion about the meaning of the words, prinni being related to a Gaulish word prenne from the glossary ofVienna and to welsh and breton prenn (wood) and old irish crann (a tree) and thus a wooden peg or stick.

Delamarre then goes on to suggest that days marked prinni loudin were start days for times on which divination by casting staves was allowed, and prinni laget the end of thos eperiods.

However it might also be to do with extra corrections to the year, with pegs (the Coligny calendar has a pierced hole for each day, its assumed a peg or pegs were moved from day to day).

I think, but am not sure, that the terms fastes and néfastes which I left untranslated are a reference to the Roman calendar which had days that were fas, I will need to check.... ah okay

An F, for fastus, marked an ordinary day when people were allowed under religious law (fas) to do any kind work. A day marked N (nefastus) is one on which no public business could be performed under religious law. NP, for nefastus publicus, were days of the great public festivals, on which none but the most necessary forms of work was allowed.
http://religioromana.net/calendar/romancalendar.htm

No mention of there being only four such days marked or where they are.

[Wodening]

Wodening: The join of the new year to the past year has always puzzled me, too. After much pondering I'd kind of come to the conclusion that although the new year began on, say, December 25th (22nd now isn't it?), the months didn't change until the new moon. Sound feasible?

Well, that is kind of conclusion I have come to too. There really isn't a way to resolve it easily unless you reach that conclusion I think. The only other one would be there were two calendars, one reckoned in solar time and one lunar, and Bede confused the two of them.

Welga!
Swain

[Wodening]

Hey Wodening, there's a note in Bill Griffith's Aspects of Anglo Saxon Magic that says his reckoning of months corresponds with the signs of the zodiac, not the moon...making April, Aries and so on.

:abadpoker I'd give you a poke, but my poker is broken...

Well, I think Mr. Griffith's may be mistaken on that as there seems to be little evidence of the Anglo-Saxons using the zodiac. If they did it would probably be their own version and not the Middle Eastern one we are all familiar with today. I say that because their only contact with the Middle East was via Rome, and while Rome had its influences, I doubt such a complex borrowing would have taken place!

Welga!
Swain

[Wodening]

Its fascinating reading and I am still digesting it. Thanks for posting the draft!

It seems there are some references in the text that were not collected into the bibliography - I hope you add them in a subsequent draft. The Bede edition, Guðmundsson. I would also encorage you to turn the bibliography into references, though I appreciate this is more work.

Oh I certainly plan to footnote this and finish out the bibliography. This section is just the beginning of the rough draft (as you can see I already have headers in place for other sections!

I will (naturally) comment on one specific section:


What was your source for this?
Why does your source claim a full moon start?

I got that from J. Monard's Histoire du calendrier gaulois - le calendrier de
Coligny. Of course as I do not read French well at all, I could easily have confused what he had to say!


Thank you!
Swain

[Nantonos]

I got that from J. Monard's Histoire du calendrier gaulois - le calendrier de
Coligny. Of course as I do not read French well at all, I could easily have confused what he had to say!

Not come across that one, thanks for the pointer.

Hmm Amazon says its out of print
http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2912616018/

If you want to pm me the paragraphs in question I will translate them for you. But its quite likely they do say the full moon (pleine lune) - it seems to be oft repeated, just not with any actual reasons :geez: is the book well referenced?

[Seren_]

Well, I think Mr. Griffith's may be mistaken on that as there seems to be little evidence of the Anglo-Saxons using the zodiac. If they did it would probably be their own version and not the Middle Eastern one we are all familiar with today. I say that because their only contact with the Middle East was via Rome, and while Rome had its influences, I doubt such a complex borrowing would have taken place!

Welga!
Swain

Well, I have to confess I do wonder, which is why I brought it up. I haven't been able to get hold of Anglo-Saxon Magic by G Storms, so I have nothing to compare with, really (and I understand it to be something of a benchmark in these matters *ahem* if anyone would like to contribute...).

But Mr Griffiths does make an interesting case, citing Aelfric's Old English De Temporibus Anni as one example of the Anglo-Saxon's awareness of the more Classical zodiac before/around Bede's time - and although I don't do Old English, even I can tell it's a vaguely accurate translation, to the best of my knowledge (though my Latin is very limited...and terrible). I will copy it up if you'd like, but perhaps best on the Anglo-Saxon thread? I don't want to hog Mothwench's excellent thread with an off-topic discussion...

Griffiths also points out the reasoning behind Bede's examination of the calendar, in relation to the dating of Easter - which was still something of a hot issue even 50 years or so after the Synod of Whitby (in 664) and so forth...which very much involved the "Celtic" church (and is more my perspective/area of knowledge, admittedly). I don't see why Bede wouldn't have knowledge of astrology in this respect, since most of the Christian world had quite a surprising access to such things by his time, and the subject was still considered a science, or at least pseudo-science, by most scholars until much later.

But I would be very grateful to be given more accurate perspectives or sources here...(preferably ones I can buy...or hoard, more correctly...:D )

[Wodening]

Hail Seren!

Well, I would not totally discount it. The Anglo-Saxons certainly had knowledge of astrology by the time of Aelfric, but then Aelfric lived from about 950 to 1010 CE while Bede lived about 673 to 735. That is an almost 300 year difference, and 300 more years of Christianity and interaction with the Byzatines (at that time the big purveyors of Classical knowledge). Bede most likely did have knowledge of astrology himself, but I do not see the common, still almost Heathen Anglo-Saxon having it. My reasoning is outside of the Church, the Anglo-Saxons were still a very much oral culture, that is wisdom was passed mouth to ear. Astology on the other hand was very much a book learned art (at least the Middle Eastern variety). Still, I would like to see his arguements