Do you want a professional clergy?

[kaosxmage]

I'm curious how the membership here feels about a professional clergy in your particular path. Let's here it! Cast your vote!

Tis the season afterall, :crystalba

--Kaos

[Ahautenites]

Are you asking do we want clergy, or do we want to BE clergy? Or both?

My faith has professional clergy. I'm still on the fence about whether I want to enter the clergy some day or not.

[kaosxmage]

Are you asking do we want clergy, or do we want to BE clergy? Or both?

My faith has professional clergy. I'm still on the fence about whether I want to enter the clergy some day or not.

A bit of both really. Obviously all faiths have clergy. The question I'm posing is, do you want a professional clergy, much like say ...the catholics, who are always available and make their living this way, run the temples, etc.

That help?

[Ahautenites]

Well, I do disagree about all faiths having a clergy, but other than that, yes, that clarification helps. :)

[Athena-Nadine]

Are you asking do we want clergy, or do we want to BE clergy? Or both?

My faith has professional clergy. I'm still on the fence about whether I want to enter the clergy some day or not.
Mine does as well. It also has congregations and 501(c)(3) status here in the United States. I am in the beginnings of my studies to become clergy.

[ap Dafydd]

No, no, and again no!

For me, Paganism cannot have a clergy because it cannot have a laity.

Christianity (and other religions too) have a clergy as intercedents between the divine and the laity, who are (presumably) not fit to interface directly with the Great Big Whatever It Is.

For me, Paganism is precisely about having that direct contact with the Divine. That's what ritual and meditation are all about. That's one of the reasons that being a Pagan isn't an easy path to follow. Certainly if I need someone to perform a ritual for me (a funeral for my nearest and dearest might be one instance where I couldn't easily do it myself), then I'll find one. But in most circumstances, I'd do my own.

Do we _really_ want to end up with a Paganism where some of us only go to Circle for Beltane, Samhain, and handfastings and leave all the serious spiritual work to professions?

Really?

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[misschief]

nope. nothing i do or need requires anyone but me, and i like it that way.

[Calen]

Not horribly. While I enjoy having people with similar (or sometimes, totally different) beliefs to talk to, my own path doesn't require a clergy, as such. I've always been able to find the answers to my questions within myself, books, or the fine people of the internet.

The closest thing I would ever want to clergy is if I ever joined a coven, and used the word 'clergy' to refer to my High Priest or Priestess.

[~Elise~]

I'm curious how the membership here feels about a professional clergy in your particular path. Let's here it! Cast your vote!

Tis the season afterall, :crystalba

--Kaos

If we want to be taken seriously and not dismissed by the masses, then yes, we need clergy.
I function in this role now--I lead a group and have for three years now. I teach 3 weekly classes, I have Full Moon and New Moon rituals and Sabbats, as well. I'm also a single mom and hold a full-time job.

It is hard to do this. There are demands on my time that people aren't aware of. I have to prepare for the classes. I write my own rituals for the moons and the Sabbats. I counsel, as needed. I'm there for hospital visits and/or healings, as needed. I marry people...thank goodness I haven't had to do a funeral yet. I conduct Wiccanings. I spend 12-15 nights a month on group stuff. That doesn't leave much time for myself or my son.

I'm also involved in Community here in Tulsa...I, and my group, sponsored Pagan Pride Day. I'm a charter member of the Northeastern Oklahoma Pagan/Heathen Alliance--(that alone took 7 months of meetings to bring into existance) I helped sponsor the Witches Ball last year. I conduct public ceremonies at statewide events.

So, yes, if I could make a living doing this, I would. There is soooooooo much more I could get done that I just don't have time for. There is much more to this than just conducting a ritual or two and unless you do it on an on-going basis, you don't know how much goes on behind the scenes that you don't see and take for granted.

Okay--off my sopabox now....next?

Elise

[misschief]

well.. i say, screw the masses. i won't change my belief system to satisfy them. i don't care if they take me seriously or not. i know what i'm doing, and i know it's real. *shrug*

btw.. that wasn't supposed to offend. it's just what i think.

[DebLipp]

Christianity (and other religions too) have a clergy as intercedents between the divine and the laity, who are (presumably) not fit to interface directly with the Great Big Whatever It Is.Well, if that was true, it would be a good point, but it's not. Some clergy in some denominations function as needed intercedents, others do not. Clergy perform many functions which sometimes includes intercession. Obviously, in most Pagan paths (all that I know of) that particular function wouldn't be needed or even accepted. Clergy also handle community and social issues, maintain a central meeting place, provide reliable, accessible worship services, teach, counsel, marry and bury, serve as a liason to the larger community, and many other functions. None of these would rob individuals of their contact with the divine.

Do we _really_ want to end up with a Paganism where some of us only go to Circle for Beltane, Samhain, and handfastings and leave all the serious spiritual work to professions?

Paganism is already that for many people and has been for some years. And what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't Paganism be able to provide a spiritual experience for people who don't want or feel the need to work at it full time? Why should people who meet their own spiritual needs year-round cop an attitude of superiority to those whose needs only extend to Beltaine & Samhain rituals? Why should someone who, for example, works an 80 hour week be looked down upon if they don't ALSO have time for organizing 8 Sabbats and 13 Moons a year?

Many of us enjoy listening to music without necessarily being good at making music ourselves. Does the existence of professional musicians rob us of the ability to make music? Does it diminish us? Are musicians superior to non-musicians and should they deplore the existence of people who merely go to concerts and buy CDs?

[Ben Trismegistus]

Well, in my opinion it's always good to have a spiritual leader or mentor. Even though most of our paths are about personal gnosis, it certainly helps to have someone in a position of authority who can help guide you.

Full Disclosure: I'm part of a Wiccan tradition with clergy, and I'm 2/3rds of the way there myself.

[misschief]

well.. i guess i understand some of you thinking it's a good idea. but, even though i've incorporated several things into my path that weren't there before.. it's still one of tradition, and part of my tradition is not having anyone above me, or however you want to say it. i was taught and raised to be independent in it, and taught to mentor and teach myself, and that's how i do it. i wouldn't mind other people looking up to a 'clergy', but i probably wouldn't want any part of it.

[~Elise~]

well.. i guess i understand some of you thinking it's a good idea. but, even though i've incorporated several things into my path that weren't there before.. it's still one of tradition, and part of my tradition is not having anyone above me, or however you want to say it. i was taught and raised to be independent in it, and taught to mentor and teach myself, and that's how i do it. i wouldn't mind other people looking up to a 'clergy', but i probably wouldn't want any part of it.

Why should clergy be 'looked up' to? I don't see the corelation at all.

As I tell the group I guide...I am a guide, I am not here to forgive you or to function as church either. I help you find your path and send you on your way with a new teacher. They have to be seriously studying, either on their own or with me or someone else in town. That is part of the guidelines of joining.

If that which you seek you do not find it within, you will never find it without. I just help them find it within. I do not need to be looked up to. I am not a guru. I know quite a few other leaders who feel the same way.

Unless someone is in this for Ego, then they do not want someone looking up to them.

Maybe--some need to take a look at what being clergy really means. It means a life of service, not someone putting you on a pedestal. With that definition in mind--then I think a professional clergy can be a good thing.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

[misschief]

that's fine....... for you. i just don't agree.

[Thalias_Smile]

Those of us who were with our online temple from the very beginning, intend to become professional clergies in our particular path. And I thought that there were already licensed clergy, in such national covens as C.O.G. (Covenant of the Goddess). As Wicca is a legal religion at this time, I would think the licensed clergy (high priest/ess) would be available by the droves.

[-Ember]

My path does have clergy for me to use and abuse. I'd love to be able to have them even more availible than they are now(which not needing another job would do), but I'm not sure that is what would really work best... mundane life experience is important.

[Moriquenya]

Don't care what the masses think or value.

I don't think Paganism needs to force itself into that hierarchical system of clergy just to obtain "validity" or "respect" from the masses. Mentors and guides are one thing, but professional clergy? Not for me. Don't want it; don't need it.

[Brigid Bishop]

We are professional clergy. Self proclaimed, yet professional. If we start setting up strict guidelines we'll begin falling to prey to doctrines that will limit and restrict our freedom. That's the best part about the path, we choose it ourselves.

[halfwaynowhere]

for me, i would say yes and no. i don't feel that i need to go through anybody to get to the divine spirits. I think that somebody to look up to and to sort of lead a ritual or something would be good, like an Elder, or council of Elders.

[Gede]

MM~
I wouldn't care if there was professional clery, and I know there are many who walk that path today, but because Paganism is decentralised, autonomous and anarchist by nature it would never become a driving force of intermediacy between the Divine and the Self. Paganism provides that spiritual connection which many faiths reject in favour of heirachical notions of exclusivity, a great deal of which is to retain that sense of supremacy over and the mystery of God itself. I am my own Priest, and I have no need for professional clery on my path, but others may have that need, I just hope that we are not defined by that clergy in the years to come, but I would accept their presence as an aspect of our community. We need to keep our individual energy, what draws people to find solace in our traditions.

Namaste, Gede...

[Loopaleigh]

for me, i would say yes and no. i don't feel that i need to go through anybody to get to the divine spirits. I think that somebody to look up to and to sort of lead a ritual or something would be good, like an Elder, or council of Elders.

I like halfwaynowhere's term better than Clergy. Clergy is to Chruchy for me. Elder also sounds more wise and learned, someone who is there for guidance, wiccanings, handfasting, funerals, etc., but not to be a guru or intercedant.

I mean, this is kinda morbid....but if I were to die suddenly....who would do my funeral? I don't belong to a coven, I don't know any High Priestesses and I sure as heck don't want my family dragging in a preacher man. If I get married, well, I want a religious ceremony conducted by a person of my religion, not a justice of the peace or someone from city hall.

[Teresa]

Sorry Hun but NOOOOOOOOOOO and NOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[dr_zeus440]

i went for the non-existent other. i wouldnt say 'hell no" but i would say "tentative no". dunno, thats just my attitude to clergy. besides, what path! theres too many, mostly all aspects of paganism are too personalised to be clerginated anyway.

[Rowan73]

A member of my local pagan community does wiccanings, hand-fastings, etc. She is High Priestess of one of the local covens and an acquaintance of mine. However, except for those such things, I need no one interceding between myself and the spiritual.

[Twig]

I couldn't really vote because I am one of those that consider myself just that.

Peace,
Rev. R. Twig Jones

[kaosxmage]

We are professional clergy. Self proclaimed, yet professional. If we start setting up strict guidelines we'll begin falling to prey to doctrines that will limit and restrict our freedom. That's the best part about the path, we choose it ourselves.

You say you are professional clergy already? I ask than, are you available at all hours? Have you conducted weddingd, funerals, family counseling, community outreach, or any other clergy activities? Or as many pagan clergy members are, do you work a job or three, and conduct spiritual matters in circle or whatever you choose, and that's that?

I do agree that paganism as a whole is far and wide, and needs no strict adherance to rules. But temples spread far and wide would be nice, and community outreach conducted by a priesthood that doesn't have to hold down two jobs would be great. We must remember that at one time most pagan gods were honored in a temple by professional 24 hour a day clergy. Just food for thought.

--Kaos

[DebLipp]

You say you are professional clergy already? I ask than, are you available at all hours? Have you conducted weddingd, funerals, family counseling, community outreach, or any other clergy activities? Or as many pagan clergy members are, do you work a job or three, and conduct spiritual matters in circle or whatever you choose, and that's that?

I do agree that paganism as a whole is far and wide, and needs no strict adherance to rules. But temples spread far and wide would be nice, and community outreach conducted by a priesthood that doesn't have to hold down two jobs would be great. We must remember that at one time most pagan gods were honored in a temple by professional 24 hour a day clergy. Just food for thought.

--Kaos
It would indeed be nice if we could have a "professional" clergy in the sense that it's a job with pay, so that we weren't burning out our best priests and priestesses at a young age. We have gifted, wonderful people who essentially work two jobs PLUS try to have lives, and then when they retire at 35 or 40 from total burnout we wonder why.

For myself, I have married, buried, blessed children, counseled individuals and couples, performed public and private ceremony, taught, and interacted with the media in a positive way. I also work full time. (AND I write books.)

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

To be completely honest, I'm a bit split on this subject. I'm working through my thoughts in I'm sure will eventually become an essay on my website.

My first thought every time I hear this question is: Paganism teaches that we need no clergy--we are all Priests/Priestess of the Gods. We need no one between ourselves and deity. That was one of the things that drew me to Paganism initially.

However, I can see the other side of the fence.

You say you are professional clergy already? I ask than, are you available at all hours? Have you conducted weddings, funerals, family counseling, community outreach, or any other clergy activities?

Yes, I have--save for ever having to do a funeral. I do not consider myself professional clergy, for the record. I am a volunteer Pagan leader of a fellowship located on an Air Force Base, but also it is open to the public. I have been doing this for three years. We meet once a week for general discussion and classes on a variety of topics (each week we have a topic, as well as a gemstone or herb study). We hold open rituals, provide clergy services, and organize food drives at the four greater Sabbats.

I have counseled members who left my circle over a year ago, but called my cell phone at 2 am because they couldn't think of anyone else. I have taken them to the hospital because they were suicidal, and talked with them for hours because they were getting divorced or married. I have done the things that Deb described: blessed children, taught, performed public and private rituals, ect. I also work with the local news media on everything from the issue of religion in school (we had a girl suspended for wearing a pentacle) to celebrations of the Sabbats.

To some, all of those things make me clergy. To others, I am "too young" to be doing the things that I am, or I need to have a title of some kind (HPS, ect) before I can be considered clergy.

Would I want to be professional (paid) clergy? I honestly don't think so. I like volunteering my time and effort--I look at what I do as my way of giving back to the Gods, my service in Their name, if you will.

I think the idea of professional clergy is a nice one, but not one that we'll see anytime soon. Paganism is too diverse to be able to train professional clergy, outside of specific traditions and organizations. Just because I am trained clergy in my tradition does not and should not mean that I should be considered as such for any other group.

I think the role of clergy in Paganism is decided by the community that person is involved in. Within my own community, there is pretty much no need for clergy outside of my own circle. Everyone else that I know is solitary and prefers it that way. However, in larger cities, there might be a need there that is not present here.

Just a few cents from my direction. I'm really enjoying reading everyone's responses to this!

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[Pan]

Though I would like to have clergy to go to in times of emotional need, it wouldn't really work in general paganism.

The information is so diluted over the years, that oftentimes what one person says is true, many others say is false.

The presence of clergy is actually one of the reasons that I enjoy Catholicism.

[Rubber_Piggy]

No, no, and again no!

For me, Paganism cannot have a clergy because it cannot have a laity.

Christianity (and other religions too) have a clergy as intercedents between the divine and the laity, who are (presumably) not fit to interface directly with the Great Big Whatever It Is.

For me, Paganism is precisely about having that direct contact with the Divine. That's what ritual and meditation are all about. That's one of the reasons that being a Pagan isn't an easy path to follow. Certainly if I need someone to perform a ritual for me (a funeral for my nearest and dearest might be one instance where I couldn't easily do it myself), then I'll find one. But in most circumstances, I'd do my own.

Do we _really_ want to end up with a Paganism where some of us only go to Circle for Beltane, Samhain, and handfastings and leave all the serious spiritual work to professions?

Really?

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

Exactly!!

[ap Dafydd]

Clergy also handle community and social issues, maintain a central meeting place, provide reliable, accessible worship services, teach, counsel, marry and bury, serve as a liason to the larger community, and many other functions. None of these would rob individuals of their contact with the divine.

A Pagan can do any of these things without needing to be "clergy". Apart from counselling for which proper training is required.

Paganism is already that for many people and has been for some years. And what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't Paganism be able to provide a spiritual experience for people who don't want or feel the need to work at it full time? Why should people who meet their own spiritual needs year-round cop an attitude of superiority to those whose needs only extend to Beltaine & Samhain rituals? Why should someone who, for example, works an 80 hour week be looked down upon if they don't ALSO have time for organizing 8 Sabbats and 13 Moons a year?

What about _everything_ is wrong with this attitude? I don't consider Paganism to be something you can pick up or put down like a piece of garbage. I am Pagan. That means that it transforms every aspect of my life. I don't stop being a Pagan at any time. That doesn't mean that I don't do the mundane stuff as well. just that it's not a fashionable add-on that's there if I've got time for it.

And you misunderstand if you assume that I'm saying that there is no validity in someone's Paganism if they only do rituals at certain times. I'd hate to argue with you ad hominem on that.

As I'm sure you are well aware, there are Christians for whom their "faith" only consists of going to church at Xmas, Easter, and for weddings and funerals. That was my comparison. It's called humour.

In my country it's illegal to work for 80 hours a week, and quite right too.

Many of us enjoy listening to music without necessarily being good at making music ourselves. Does the existence of professional musicians rob us of the ability to make music? Does it diminish us? Are musicians superior to non-musicians and should they deplore the existence of people who merely go to concerts and buy CDs?

I happen to regard a commitment to Paganism as a bit more serious than my personal taste in music or any other lifestyle fad.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[DebLipp]

A Pagan can do any of these things without needing to be "clergy". Apart from counselling for which proper training is required.I would argue that training in pastoral counselling for Pagan clergy would be a good thing indeed. And "can do" is theoretical. There are only so many hours in a day.

What about _everything_ is wrong with this attitude? I don't consider Paganism to be something you can pick up or put down like a piece of garbage. I am Pagan. That means that it transforms every aspect of my life. I don't stop being a Pagan at any time. That doesn't mean that I don't do the mundane stuff as well. just that it's not a fashionable add-on that's there if I've got time for it.

And you misunderstand if you assume that I'm saying that there is no validity in someone's Paganism if they only do rituals at certain times. I'd hate to argue with you ad hominem on that.

As I'm sure you are well aware, there are Christians for whom their "faith" only consists of going to church at Xmas, Easter, and for weddings and funerals. That was my comparison. It's called humour.
Thanks, I've heard of humor. You apparently haven't heard that we've been calling 'em "Beltane and Samhain Pagans" for YEARS. There are thousands and thousands of such people. More power to 'em, I say. Who are you to decide they don't belong in the Pagan community because their Paganism doesn't measure up? I think the community can support EXACTLY that sort of mild commitment, and I have no problem with that. Some of us devote our entire lives and beings to Paganism, but treating it like that's a necessary component of Paganism is elitist; it excludes people who love the Gods but have less to give.

In my country it's illegal to work for 80 hours a week, and quite right too.In my country labor laws do not apply to the self-employed, to business owners, to high-level executives, to work brought home, to medical students, and a host of others.

I happen to regard a commitment to Paganism as a bit more serious than my personal taste in music or any other lifestyle fad.
I'm sure the people who have devoted their lives to their music or art or lifestyle appreciate your opinion that you're deeper than they are.

[Brigid Bishop]

You say you are professional clergy already? I ask than, are you available at all hours? Have you conducted weddingd, funerals, family counseling, community outreach, or any other clergy activities? Or as many pagan clergy members are, do you work a job or three, and conduct spiritual matters in circle or whatever you choose, and that's that?

I do agree that paganism as a whole is far and wide, and needs no strict adherance to rules. But temples spread far and wide would be nice, and community outreach conducted by a priesthood that doesn't have to hold down two jobs would be great. We must remember that at one time most pagan gods were honored in a temple by professional 24 hour a day clergy. Just food for thought.

--Kaos

Yes I am available to my parish, I have a church in my community, some of my members refer to it as a coven.

I am licensed in my county to legally perform marriages, which I do, I started an adult literacy program here as part of my personal community outreach program, I provide professional counseling on a daily basis at all hours of the day and night (try to get a Priest or Minister at 4 a.m. when your child has run away, you'll get an answering machine, me, I go to my parishioners home and to the police station with them).

I do not work any "jobs", I solely am cleric in my community, although I have other business to support myself, it is only done because my parish is too small for the donations to do more than pay for our electric bill, I donated the building myself.

So perhaps you would like to know more about how this was accomplished? You can PM me at your convenience and I will be happy to let you know how I started out, it was quite by accident.

I am also tax exempt status, although I may revoke that as I will need the social security that the exempt status prevents me from collecting when I retire.

I don't understand why you questioned my professionalism in this manner? Is this unusual to you?

I am a Universalist, so along with my "whatever", I conduct rituals with the cycles of the moon, guided meditations, and I celebrate a nondenominational mass that welcomes all faiths.

When I said professional, I did not throw the term out there loosely. ;)

[misschief]

i'm ordained... it's a shoddy, free ordination... but still one all the same, but i still don't think we need clergy. only to get legally married and all that goodness.

[Kern]

Uhhh Yes and No,Meaning that certain paths(non solitary ones) would benefit from having a clergy(ELDERS).But not in the same way that other religions have them.Clergy(ELDERS) should not be there to be overlords,but to be there for guidence,handfastings,burials,etc.when these things cant be done by the individual.They would also be there to lead rituals(as the HP/s when done within a coven/grove/etc enviroment(if the coven is designed that way).But I think that the clergy(ELDERS)( as HP/s should be voted on by the Coven in most circumstances,chosing them according to their knowledge and experience.(This would also mean that the coven would have the right to vote them out,if it seemed that the clergy was getting to high and mighty).Even the ancient Celts had the Druids and yes they were their version of the Clergy.But this is just my opp. :)

[DebLipp]

You know it astonishes me that people are so sure that clergy is ALWAYS harmful and controlling and works to keep "the people" and the gods apart. That is one model of clergy, and there are many others, operating quite successfully. The word "rabbi" means "teacher." The rabbi's role is to educate and to interact with the community. No one can stand between a Jew and God. Unitarian-Universalists also have professional clergy who do not control their congregations. Many mainline Protestant denominations are ANYTHING but intercessionary, Methodists for example.

And of course, if a congregation hires a clergyperson, that clergyperson can be fired. Happens all the tim. The control remains with the community.

[Kern]

You know it astonishes me that people are so sure that clergy is ALWAYS harmful and controlling and works to keep "the people" and the gods apart. That is one model of clergy, and there are many others, operating quite successfully. The word "rabbi" means "teacher." The rabbi's role is to educate and to interact with the community. No one can stand between a Jew and God. Unitarian-Universalists also have professional clergy who do not control their congregations. Many mainline Protestant denominations are ANYTHING but intercessionary, Methodists for example.

And of course, if a congregation hires a clergyperson, that clergyperson can be fired. Happens all the tim. The control remains with the community.
Exactly!

[Ben Trismegistus]

You know it astonishes me that people are so sure that clergy is ALWAYS harmful and controlling and works to keep "the people" and the gods apart. That is one model of clergy, and there are many others, operating quite successfully. The word "rabbi" means "teacher." The rabbi's role is to educate and to interact with the community. No one can stand between a Jew and God. Unitarian-Universalists also have professional clergy who do not control their congregations. Many mainline Protestant denominations are ANYTHING but intercessionary, Methodists for example.
Deb, that sort of attitude is to be expected. A lot of people had bad experiences with quote-unquote "organized religion" and have generalized their experience to the extent that they believe that ALL Christians/Jews/clergy/dogma must be bad or corrupt in some way.

If there's one thing I've learned in the HUGE diversity of religious services I've attended (raised in a Conservative Synagogue and attended numerous services at Orthodox and Reformed Synagogues, sung in choirs at Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, and Episcopalean churchs, and attended all sorts of pagan circles), it's that every group is different. Some groups are closed-minded and prejudiced, some are accepting and welcoming. Some clergypeople are rude and power-hungry, others are kind and hard-working. Religion is not an easy thing to make generalizations about.

[Athena-Nadine]

I agree with Ben and Deb (small wonder--I usually do :lol: ).

Now, I need to say something here. Stop lumping all of us together. There is no "Pagan" religion. We all only call ourselves that because we have nothing better. It's disrespectful in its disregard. I've read through this thread, and I keep seeing it said that "Paganism" teaches that "we" don't need clergy, that we're all priests and priestesses. This is not true. Wicca may teach that in some traditions, and the more eclectic practices may believe that, but the majority of the Recon religions (actually, almost every single Recon I've come across) wish we had more real, trained clergy. Our religions (I am only speaking of the Reconstructionists) weren't meant to be solitary religions. They are community religions, they revolve around the community, and a very important part of them is one that is all too often sorely lacking. That is community practice, and it doesn't just include ritual. Recons practice in solitary because many of us have little choice in the matter. Teaching and outreach is a much more important function of clergy in Recon religions. Bringing the various Recon communities together is much more important than intercession, especially since intercession is neither necessary nor desired by our gods. There are far too many services we cannot provide to our gods without clergy, not the least being the preservation of our spiritual heritage and history.

I don't know where this assumption that clergy is to be looked up to comes from. Maybe it's due to my lack of Christian upbringing. *...shrugs...* I don't know. All I know is, those who become clergy, in every Pagan religion I've seen, do so because they want to dedicate themselves to their gods and their religion in ways they cannot accomplish without becoming clergy. They do so only because they want to serve. That's it. They want to serve their gods and their community to the best of their ability. They dedicate their lives to doing so. Becoming clergy, for them, is the most profound statement of comittment they can make. It is more than just living their religion day in and day out. Clergy do not become clergy to serve their own needs. They do so to serve their gods, their religion, and their community. They become clergy because reaching within is no longer enough for them. They become clergy because the desire to reach outside themselves is too strong for them to not do so. They are clergy because they are way more humble and selfless than most of us. They are clergy because their own love and reverence for the Divine and everything It entails is too powerful for them not to. They deserve nothing but respect for their dedication and commitment, but no true priest or priestess of any religion desires to be revered, held in awe, or looked up to in any way. And really, what on earth is so horrible with holding someone who works so hard in high regard?

[Kaylara]

Yes, I would like to see a pagan clergy, but I don't think it will be happening any time soon.

Let me start off by saying that I think there is a pagan leity. There are enough people who don't want to take the time to learn about this stuff. They want the ready made spell. The ready made ritual. The information handed to them on a silver platter. The pagan community has really prided itself on being a culture where everyone is clergy. We're all our own intermediaries to the divine. And I'm not saying that we should change that view. But perhaps we need to define for ourselves what would be considered leity and what would be considered clergy. Because the traditional definitions for those words are not quite correct for us, but kinda the closest words (at least me personally) can come up with.

The next issue we would face, is what paths would be included? What beliefs would be taught? And who decides that? Trying to get pagans to agree on anything at all is next to impossible, so this undertaking would be a huge one, time consuming, and frustrating to say the least. Of course, this is assuming that we want a unified teaching and a unified standard for the pagan clergy.

What roles would the clergy fill?

I think that a pagan clergy would benefit us in several ways. First it would make us seem more of a real religious group to people outside the community. There will be people that they can point to as clergy, as an example of our beliefs. The clergy would facilitate education and public relations in this role. They would perform marriages, officiate over funerals, etc. They would be servants of the community. Helping people in need, providing guidance and advice on personal and spiritual matters, helping with the training of new pagans and/or clergy. Think of all of the different kinds of responsibilities held by other religions around the world, and roll them into one.

One of the main problems that would be faced by anyone trying to organize this, besides the ones I stated above, would be the lack of respect a lot of people seem to have for anyone who claims to have any experience whatsoever. If you’re a member of a particular Tradition, you’re an Elitist Snob. If you’ve been pagan for a while, and have knowledge and try to help people and share it, you’re flaunting your knowledge. Conversely we have a lot of people who are really anti-newbie. That would be a bit deterrent to people wanting to start on a path, so we do have to watch out for that Elitism crap.

I’ve thought about this a bit, and the best thing I could come up with would be to have local councils, which would be held responsible for making sure that the clergy in that area were acting appropriately, and in the best interest of the local community. These people would volunteer, and be voted for by the local pagan community and the local community would also be in charge of removing a person if they abused their power or if they were acting inappropriately.

There are a lot of issues that would really need to be resolved before we’d be able to make this idea a reality. But I do think the benefits would be worth it. Does anyone have any imput on this? Any ideas for the issues I brought up? Any ideas on how to resolve them?

[Ben Trismegistus]

There are a lot of issues that would really need to be resolved before we’d be able to make this idea a reality. But I do think the benefits would be worth it. Does anyone have any imput on this? Any ideas for the issues I brought up? Any ideas on how to resolve them?
I agree with your entire post, Kay, but the more time I spend on this forum, the more I think that attempting to add even the more elementary form of organization to the pagan community as a whole is like herding cats. There's just no way to do it without someone getting hurt.

I think that the temporary solution is greater organization within established pagan paths. Like Nallia said, there's no unified pagan religion, but we could certainly benefit from real clergy alliances within Gardnerian Wicca, or Druidry, or Hellenic Reconstructionism, or any of the more codified paths. That sort of inter-path unity will give those more organized paths more strength and influence within the community as a whole, and perhaps other paths will follow suit. But I'm sure you've seen that a LOT of people in the community (at least on this site) are vehemently opposed to that sort of idea.

[~Elise~]

I don't know where this assumption that clergy is to be looked up to comes from. Maybe it's due to my lack of Christian upbringing. *...shrugs...* I don't know. All I know is, those who become clergy, in every Pagan religion I've seen, do so because they want to dedicate themselves to their gods and their religion in ways they cannot accomplish without becoming clergy. They do so only because they want to serve. That's it. They want to serve their gods and their community to the best of their ability. They dedicate their lives to doing so. Becoming clergy, for them, is the most profound statement of comittment they can make. It is more than just living their religion day in and day out. Clergy do not become clergy to serve their own needs. They do so to serve their gods, their religion, and their community. They become clergy because reaching within is no longer enough for them. They become clergy because the desire to reach outside themselves is too strong for them to not do so. They are clergy because they are way more humble and selfless than most of us. They are clergy because their own love and reverence for the Divine and everything It entails is too powerful for them not to. They deserve nothing but respect for their dedication and commitment, but no true priest or priestess of any religion desires to be revered, held in awe, or looked up to in any way. And really, what on earth is so horrible with holding someone who works so hard in high regard?

I agree totally here. This is what I was trying to say earlier in a post I made. Most who answer "The Call" are not in this to be held in high regard by others. They are not looking for followers. And those who are--it is pretty apparent fairly quickly and they don't last long.

Also calling yourself a Pagan is like saying you're a Christian. Pagan is an umbrella term...one often used because it, in most cases, is non-offensive to the general masses. Are you Wiccan--then if so--are you Dianic, Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Georgian or BTW? Are you a Witch? Are you Native American? Reconstructionist? Are you Faery--then do you follow the RJ Stewart flavor? Kisma Steponvich? Victor Anderson Feri? Faery Wicca?
My point here is that there are as many 'flavors' of Pagan as there are of Christian. So to use that umbrella term and then say Paganism teaches a certain viewpoint is incorrect.

Again JMO and YMMV.

Elise

[Athena-Nadine]

I agree with your entire post, Kay, but the more time I spend on this forum, the more I think that attempting to add even the more elementary form of organization to the pagan community as a whole is like herding cats. There's just no way to do it without someone getting hurt.

I think that the temporary solution is greater organization within established pagan paths. Like Nallia said, there's no unified pagan religion, but we could certainly benefit from real clergy alliances within Gardnerian Wicca, or Druidry, or Hellenic Reconstructionism, or any of the more codified paths. That sort of inter-path unity will give those more organized paths more strength and influence within the community as a whole, and perhaps other paths will follow suit. But I'm sure you've seen that a LOT of people in the community (at least on this site) are vehemently opposed to that sort of idea.
Again, I agree (Duh :lol: ). But I think that before even that small step can be taken, the concept that clergy=Power-Hungy-Control Freak-This-Is-The-Only-Way-It-Is-Manipulator must be discarded. I realize that a lot of that comes from people who have had a bad experience with Christianity, among others, but people need to realize that Christianity has nothing to do with anything as far as our religions go (unless you are someone who melds the two, but those people don't seem to have the sae issues with the concept of clergy).

This whole, "We shouldn't do __________ because some Christians took advantage" needs to stop. It's counter-productive to everything. We need to focus more on what's best for each community as a whole, and look at the positive angles, and stop the knee-jerk reactions that are stemming from personal issues. Because, solitary by choice or not, we are all part of a larger community, and it's way past time that the community was nurtured.

[ap Dafydd]

I would argue that training in pastoral counselling for Pagan clergy would be a good thing indeed. And "can do" is theoretical. There are only so many hours in a day.

I would counter that training in counselling is a necessity for anyone who wants to counsel. None of the trained Pagan counsellors I know would fit the definition of "clergy".

There are thousands and thousands of such people. More power to 'em, I say. Who are you to decide they don't belong in the Pagan community because their Paganism doesn't measure up? I think the community can support EXACTLY that sort of mild commitment, and I have no problem with that. Some of us devote our entire lives and beings to Paganism, but treating it like that's a necessary component of Paganism is elitist; it excludes people who love the Gods but have less to give.

In my mind, the person who is elitist would be one who accepted some sort of dumbed down "Paganism Lite" for the "masses" and reserved the real thing to the "clergy". I don't. I consider that the full experience of Paganism is open to _all_ Pagans, the awe, the joy, the transforming power, the vistas of knowledge, but also the responsibilities, to ourselves, to one another, to the Earth. I find it impossible to reconcile that with an attitude that Paganism is something you can consume when you feel like it and then put away or, still worse, that it's a piece of social ritual that gets done at the appropriate occasions.

I'm sure the people who have devoted their lives to their music or art or lifestyle appreciate your opinion that you're deeper than they are.

Having made it clear in my first response that I wasn't prepared to argue ad hominem, I'm a little disappointed that you felt the need to descend to insult in your reply.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[DebLipp]

In my mind, the person who is elitist would be one who accepted some sort of dumbed down "Paganism Lite" for the "masses" and reserved the real thing to the "clergy". I don't. I consider that the full experience of Paganism is open to _all_ Pagans"Open" is the keyword here. No one is suggesting taking that away. The issue is "required." You seem to suggest that anyone who will not take on the full responsibility shouldn't be Pagan, and I stand by my belief that such restrictions are elitist. No one wants to reserve anything for a special group. The issue is whether people can be empowered to provide specific services to those who desire them, WITHOUT taking away anything from those who don't want it.

I find it impossible to reconcile that with an attitude that Paganism is something you can consume when you feel like it and then put away or, still worse, that it's a piece of social ritual that gets done at the appropriate occasions.However much you may struggle with internal recognition, there are many thousands of people already doing exactly that, and have been for many years. The issue at hand is whether we choose to be supportive of those people, or whether we try to wish them away by being unable to accept them.

Having made it clear in my first response that I wasn't prepared to argue ad hominem, I'm a little disappointed that you felt the need to descend to insult in your reply.What is this, Feel Insulted by Deborah Day? I didn't insult you and I don't see how the quote you selected can be interpreted as such. You sneered at my example/analogy by calling it a "mere" hobby, hardly comparable to your own highly evolved experience. Sneering is insulting. Musicians often devote their lives and beings to their art, a worthy endeavor, which was exactly why my analogy was a good one, despite the fact that you dismissed music as a hobby.

[~Elise~]

The next issue we would face, is what paths would be included? What beliefs would be taught? And who decides that? Trying to get pagans to agree on anything at all is next to impossible, so this undertaking would be a huge one, time consuming, and frustrating to say the least. Of course, this is assuming that we want a unified teaching and a unified standard for the pagan clergy.



What roles would the clergy fill?

I think that a pagan clergy would benefit us in several ways. First it would make us seem more of a real religious group to people outside the community. There will be people that they can point to as clergy, as an example of our beliefs. The clergy would facilitate education and public relations in this role. They would perform marriages, officiate over funerals, etc. They would be servants of the community. Helping people in need, providing guidance and advice on personal and spiritual matters, helping with the training of new pagans and/or clergy. Think of all of the different kinds of responsibilities held by other religions around the world, and roll them into one.

One of the main problems that would be faced by anyone trying to organize this, besides the ones I stated above, would be the lack of respect a lot of people seem to have for anyone who claims to have any experience whatsoever. If you’re a member of a particular Tradition, you’re an Elitist Snob. If you’ve been pagan for a while, and have knowledge and try to help people and share it, you’re flaunting your knowledge. Conversely we have a lot of people who are really anti-newbie. That would be a bit deterrent to people wanting to start on a path, so we do have to watch out for that Elitism crap.

I’ve thought about this a bit, and the best thing I could come up with would be to have local councils, which would be held responsible for making sure that the clergy in that area were acting appropriately, and in the best interest of the local community. These people would volunteer, and be voted for by the local pagan community and the local community would also be in charge of removing a person if they abused their power or if they were acting inappropriately.

There are a lot of issues that would really need to be resolved before we’d be able to make this idea a reality. But I do think the benefits would be worth it. Does anyone have any imput on this? Any ideas for the issues I brought up? Any ideas on how to resolve them?

I don't think a unified clergy would ever work--but each path could have their own or not.

There is not a SINGLE answer that will answer this whole debate, I fear.

In Tulsa, we started on this with, I feel, with the Northeastern Oklahoma Pagan/Heathen Alliance. It isn't the be all and end all solution, BUT it is a START at least.

If you're interested, it can be read at www.okpagan.com . Click on the NEOPHA logo.

JMO and thoughts,

Elise

[ap Dafydd]

No one wants to reserve anything for a special group. The issue is whether people can be empowered to provide specific services to those who desire them, WITHOUT taking away anything from those who don't want it.

IIRC, the subject of this thread is whether there should be a Pagan clergy. If you are agreeing that things shouldn't be reserved for a special group, then I can only understand that as you saying that there _shouldn't_ be a Pagan clergy (after all, what's the point of having a Pagan clergy if they don't have any functions?)

My argument is that someone can provide specific services _without_ needing to have Reverend in front of their name.

However much you may struggle with internal recognition, there are many thousands of people already doing exactly that, and have been for many years. The issue at hand is whether we choose to be supportive of those people, or whether we try to wish them away by being unable to accept them.

Surely we are supportive of anyone who is seeking a Pagan way? I hope that no one who's ever approached me for advice has ever felt that I've been elitist or dismissive because I've spent longer on the road. But I'd never leave anyone in any doubt that Paganism _isn't_ cosy or fluffy or in any way a soft option: instead that it _will_ change them and be very hard work, but with rewards that are well worth the effort.

Sadly there _are_ people out there who do no credit to the word Pagan: the ones that think that watching an episode of some popular TV series is enough teaching, the ones who spout demonstrable rubbish about history, the ones who use Paganism to exploit others or aggrandise themselves. If someone is innocently unaware of this, then I'll happily enlighten them, once again in the way that I'm sure that everyone else on this site and other reputable sites would. But wilful idiocy, no, I'm not able to accept.

What is this, Feel Insulted by Deborah Day? I didn't insult you and I don't see how the quote you selected can be interpreted as such. You sneered at my example/analogy by calling it a "mere" hobby, hardly comparable to your own highly evolved experience. Sneering is insulting. Musicians often devote their lives and beings to their art, a worthy endeavor, which was exactly why my analogy was a good one, despite the fact that you dismissed music as a hobby.

People can devote themselves to lilfestyles which you or I might consider worthy or reprehensible and with or without a spiritual connotation. I don't see any analogy between a spiritual path and an lifestyle, vocation, or hobby (except in the sense that there's a world of difference between a musician who has devoted their life to music and a spotty teenager playing around with a guitar - perhaps there's applicability there...) But I accept that no offence was intended.

At the end of the day, though, I don't think we are going to agree on this one.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[The High Queen of Faerie]

i don't like structure.


(no.)

[SacredWithin]

I'm curious how the membership here feels about a professional clergy in your particular path. Let's here it! Cast your vote!

Tis the season afterall, :crystalba

--Kaos

I think if there is a clergy their only purpose should be to keep the coven organized. Everything else should be worked together with the coven so that everyone gets a say and it becomes like teamwork.

I think that if you have a coven that has teaching, that it should be like here on MW, if you think you know enough about the subject that you wish to teach, then enlighten the group, leaving room for more studies. :)

If only school were like that... we'd be so far ahead... :fpeace:

[~Anamorata~]

We have them already...I don't believe I'd ever wish to be a higher one, but am fine with what I am now. I belong to a Temple, so yes, we already have a clergy of sorts.
_witchball

[MorningDove030202]

No, no, and again no!

For me, Paganism cannot have a clergy because it cannot have a laity.

Christianity (and other religions too) have a clergy as intercedents between the divine and the laity, who are (presumably) not fit to interface directly with the Great Big Whatever It Is.

For me, Paganism is precisely about having that direct contact with the Divine. That's what ritual and meditation are all about. That's one of the reasons that being a Pagan isn't an easy path to follow. Certainly if I need someone to perform a ritual for me (a funeral for my nearest and dearest might be one instance where I couldn't easily do it myself), then I'll find one. But in most circumstances, I'd do my own.

Do we _really_ want to end up with a Paganism where some of us only go to Circle for Beltane, Samhain, and handfastings and leave all the serious spiritual work to professions?

Really?

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

Some people would say that Paganism already has a Laity and we call them "the fluff bunnie pagans". We already have poeple who only go to circle for those types of things.... In my opinon, it is too late! Also, why are we using Christian definitions of Clergy for Paganism? To me Pagan clergy are the folks who do charity work, and prison ministry, and run the schools.

Dove

[Rudas Starblaze]

clergy is bad,,,,, sounds more like a sexually transmitted disease to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aidron]

clergy is bad,,,,, sounds more like a sexually transmitted disease to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


What the...? Did you think this thought through entirely before you posted it? What does clergy have to do with sex? More to the point, what sort of lame-ass analogy is that?

Good grief, I can see it now:

Man: "Okay, now that I've banged ya, you're a high priestess. Sorry, I should have told you that before, but my seed is so spiritual you cannot renounce it."

Woman: "How DARE you violate me like this!"

:rolleyes:

[MorningDove030202]

In my mind, the person who is elitist would be one who accepted some sort of dumbed down "Paganism Lite" for the "masses" and reserved the real thing to the "clergy". I don't. I consider that the full experience of Paganism is open to _all_ Pagans, the awe, the joy, the transforming power, the vistas of knowledge, but also the responsibilities, to ourselves, to one another, to the Earth. I find it impossible to reconcile that with an attitude that Paganism is something you can consume when you feel like it and then put away or, still worse, that it's a piece of social ritual that gets done at the appropriate occasions.

I can see your point, that the Practice of Paganism should be an "all or nothing" commitment, however that's just not how it is in reality. People have to work full time jobs, they have to take care of their families and children, which take up alot of time, people have to take into consideration the people they live with. There needs to be levels of commitment that make NeoPaganism available to people in many different situations. This is why In Correllian Wicca has the Inner (clergy) and Outer (non Clergy) Courts. We are alwasy encouraged to join the clergy when we can make the commitment, and so far, joining the Correllian Clergy has never been denyed to anyone, but that doesn't mean that levels of commitment, and education are a bad thing. People like baby steps: I'll commit to this much now, and then I'll go to the next step when I'm ready. Not everyone is in a place in their life that they can become clergy. I myself am a stay at home mom, and because getting to the local coven was unrealistic for me, I decided to do www.witchschool.com which is at my own pase. It sure beats sitting around wishing I could study Wicca! Maybe in the future I will have the time to commit in-person training, but there is still much learning I can get from witchschool.

Dove

[-Ember]

The idea of everyone serving as their own clergy is not an ancient part of paganism. Neither, however, is the idea of clergy as intercessor. Look at any ancient form of paganism. There were the general population who had no problem reaching out to the gods/praying/etc. But they also had clergy, people who focused their lives around serving divinity. People who were in a position to provide spiritual guidence when someone got stuck, but not to act as intermediaries between the person and the gods. Just someone who could provide some good advice because they were devoted enough to service and their own spirituality.

I don't see this as being at all objectionable. Oh no, there is someone out there who is devoted to serving the gods and developing spiritually and willing to assist their fellow pagans with whatever experience they've acquired along the way. What a problem that is. Save us from the clergy. They make us fluffy. Ooooo, sounds like an std. Better restict them to a purely adminstrative function within covens.

I can understand the objection to the ego-trippers. But when you start insulting people who have put a lot of effort, often at great personal cost, into service... then you have me baffled. All I can figure is that there are a great number of pagans who have never met someone I would really consider clergy, and/or a large number of ungrateful twits who can't get past their own egos far enough to accept that sometimes there are people out there worth listening to occasionally besides themselves.

[MorningDove030202]

I agree, I think there are many NeoPagns who have no experience with structured groups and they confuse structure with heirarchy an dogma. A group can be well organized and trained (clergy and non clergy) without being dogmatic and heirachical.....

Dove

[DebLipp]

There's something that's been bothering me about this whole thread, and I finally put my finger on it. We are having a conversation about "should there be" Pagan clergy. This is nonsense. The horse is out of the barn, children, we can stop arguing about whether or not the barn door should be closed.

There IS Pagan clergy, there has been for many years. Those who object to it cannot change it by saying "Hell no." We can talk about other issues; about paying clergy, and how that might happen, about credentialing clergy, and how to determine who we would prefer to have, and not have, such credentials. We can talk about standards, values, appropriate and inappropriate roles, and interaction with non-affiliated Pagans (i.e. the Pagans who don't want clergy). But what we CAN'T do is talk about "should there be" clergy, anymore than we can talk about "should there be" full moons.

[tensen]

Good points there Deborah... very good points.
The time has changed and things occur... we have to change with the times... after all that is an important part of what makes a living religion.

[MorningDove030202]

On Unified Clergy.... I don't think that there ever will be a Unified Clergy, but I have seen areas where there are lots of NeoPagan clergy form kinda an Interfaith Pagan clergy organisation where they share their expertise and resources. I think that's as close as we will get to a unified clergy.

Dove

[Stormcall]

Personally, the idea of a clergy makes me a little nervous. I got into the craft because I could mold it to be what I wanted it to be and to match my personal beliefs. I don't know that a "clergy" could do that as well. Also, I think we already have covens, elders, wise ones, etc. who can teach us and bond us together, what's the use of lumping them all together a calling them "professional clergy?" They still do the job of clergymen (or women), so why does it even matter? Also, I have a hard time connecting and trusting other people enough to share my beliefs with them- to me the craft is a deeply solitary and personal practice, and the idea of a clergy telling me what I can and cannot do with my spirituality makes me very uncomfortable.
Just my 2 cents on the matter...

StormCall

[~Elise~]

Personally, the idea of a clergy makes me a little nervous. I got into the craft because I could mold it to be what I wanted it to be and to match my personal beliefs. I don't know that a "clergy" could do that as well. Also, I think we already have covens, elders, wise ones, etc. who can teach us and bond us together, what's the use of lumping them all together a calling them "professional clergy?" They still do the job of clergymen (or women), so why does it even matter? Also, I have a hard time connecting and trusting other people enough to share my beliefs with them- to me the craft is a deeply solitary and personal practice, and the idea of a clergy telling me what I can and cannot do with my spirituality makes me very uncomfortable.
Just my 2 cents on the matter...

StormCall

Who said ANYTHING about clergy telling you how to practice your spirituality? No one.

You have missed the point of this thread, IMO.

Go back and read through the complete thread...there are those of us out there who ARE clergy. Who interface with the community at large so you have events like PPD and such to go to when you are ready for a bit of fellowship. Who conduct your weddings, your funerals, your wiccaning, your cronings, etc. We conduct Public Rituals so that there can be a greater understanding throughout the community at large of who and what paganism is and does. We teach the newcomers, we give them safe places to learn and then send them off on their path--be it solitary or coven.
For our spirituality to take the next step...there needs to be a paid clergy. We need more clergy on the Interfaith Alliance. We need to step up into the real world here, folks. You want respect--then take the time to help and support the people who dedicate their LIVES and resources to making this a better and safer place for you to practice your solitary faith in PEACE and without fear of reprisal.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

[MorningDove030202]

Personally, the idea of a clergy makes me a little nervous. I got into the craft because I could mold it to be what I wanted it to be and to match my personal beliefs. I don't know that a "clergy" could do that as well. Also, I think we already have covens, elders, wise ones, etc. who can teach us and bond us together, what's the use of lumping them all together a calling them "professional clergy?" They still do the job of clergymen (or women), so why does it even matter? Also, I have a hard time connecting and trusting other people enough to share my beliefs with them- to me the craft is a deeply solitary and personal practice, and the idea of a clergy telling me what I can and cannot do with my spirituality makes me very uncomfortable.
Just my 2 cents on the matter...

StormCall


If you are a solitary then the clergy would even know you exist unless you asked them for help with something. I don't see a difference between the titles Clergy, Priest, Priestess and Elder, which covens have, so then they already have clergy. As groups and traditions and pagan/wiccan church mature and grow I think they will need to become more profestional. The Tradition near me has been around for 20 years and they are raising money to build their own esoteric library which will include climate controled environments to preserve very old documents and books. Building this library is a big deal, but the real reason they are bilding it is because to be come a recognised acredited College you must have a library of a certian size and quality. Eventualy there will be an esoteric college in Delaware where anyone can study. This is what I think of when people talk about profestional.

I still don't understant what threat there is to solitaries. I don't think any clergy of any tradition would want to take way the solitary path!

Dove

[Stormcall]

Who said ANYTHING about clergy telling you how to practice your spirituality? No one.

You have missed the point of this thread, IMO.

Go back and read through the complete thread...there are those of us out there who ARE clergy. Who interface with the community at large so you have events like PPD and such to go to when you are ready for a bit of fellowship. Who conduct your weddings, your funerals, your wiccaning, your cronings, etc. We conduct Public Rituals so that there can be a greater understanding throughout the community at large of who and what paganism is and does. We teach the newcomers, we give them safe places to learn and then send them off on their path--be it solitary or coven.
For our spirituality to take the next step...there needs to be a paid clergy. We need more clergy on the Interfaith Alliance. We need to step up into the real world here, folks. You want respect--then take the time to help and support the people who dedicate their LIVES and resources to making this a better and safer place for you to practice your solitary faith in PEACE and without fear of reprisal.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

I HAVE read the complete thread. If I'm missing the point it's not intentional. I don't see how it would benefit our spirituality for there to be paid clergy. I never said that I didn't support our already existing wise ones, elders and teachers. I merely said that I don't see exactly what good it would do to have them all lumped together into a paid clergy. I more than appreciate the work everyone has done to help our faith be accepted and to grow. But I don't think that a professional, paid clergy is nessecary. And right now, I cannot practice my solitary path in peace without fear of reprisal, and I doubt that any paid clergy would truly help that- not in rural america. Maybe I'm a cynic. People believe what they want to believe- no amount of reasoning or public rituals will change anyone's mind if it's set in stone. Maybe if you explained to me what good it would do to have a paid professional clergy, I'd see your point better.

[~Elise~]

I HAVE read the complete thread.

And right now, I cannot practice my solitary path in peace without fear of reprisal, and I doubt that any paid clergy would truly help that- not in rural america. Maybe I'm a cynic. People believe what they want to believe- no amount of reasoning or public rituals will change anyone's mind if it's set in stone. Maybe if you explained to me what good it would do to have a paid professional clergy, I'd see your point better.

Then you HAVE missed the point. There are quite a few people on this thread like Deb Lipp, etc who have eloquently explained why a paid clergy is necessary.
To be honest, I don't have the time to repeat all that they have said already.

As you said people believe what they want to believe...no amount of my re-stating the points made in previous emails will change your mind. I'm sorry that you live in an area where you do live in fear of reprisals.

I live in the crotch of the Bible Belt--I had the FIRST EVER injunction filed against the PPD I was putting on here. But--I stood my ground and won my right to practice my religion. I had NO choice but to do what I did...I could lose my job--I could lose sales (I'm a commission only sales person), but I felt I had no choice other than to stand my ground. Not only did I win--all the pagans here in OK won, as well.

I'm sorry that I even responded to the post--I apologize.

Elise

[Stormcall]

No need to apologize. You were respectful in the way you stated your opinion. But the thread is called- do you want a professional clergy? I responded honestly- no. Where is the point that is being missed?

[MorningDove030202]

Maybe the question should be more specific....

"Would you prefer a Church/Tradtion that includes a profestional Clergy?"

"If not, is it ok that other Churches/Traditions have a profstional Clergy? What would make it more ok and what would make it less ok?"

"What about paid clergy? Is it ok or not to pay for specific services? Is it ok to expect a church/group to provide a salary/living stipend for clergy (full time or part time)?"

Dove

[tensen]

I think part of the reasons that people complain about clergy is they see certain things and ignore others.

For one thing... pagan clergy is unlike say Christian Clergy in that there is no way they would speak to the divine in your place. This fact should never change.

But to take the time to get actual counseling training. And other necessary training to be able to assist in spirituality for families in passing... that is the part we speak of.

I actually see the clergy aspect more important for our solitary numbers... than a large church type aspect. Because those in covens and circles already have available members to go to in time of need.

[MorningDove030202]

I actually see the clergy aspect more important for our solitary numbers... than a large church type aspect. Because those in covens and circles already have available members to go to in time of need.

I agree, and it bothers me that the clergy of my local traditon don't seam to care about being there for those outside of their tradition. Yes, they participate in Pagan Pride Day, but so far only one person of that tradition has listed themselves as Clergy at Witchvox for anyone to contact in a time of need. I know they have much more than one clergy person from that tradition in the state. I think it's awsome that Witchvox added the Clergy catagory, and I think more people, solitary or not who want to serve should list themselves.

Dove

[-Ember]

it bothers me that the clergy of my local traditon don't seam to care about being there for those outside of their tradition.

Of course, a certain degree of that arises from having been burnt by it. There is a certain degree of sheilding against that when working within your trad, whereas there is a tendency for the general population to use you up, drop you where you fall and call you names after the fact. I know my clergy isn't going to turn away from anyone who comes to them in need, but they aren't exactly offering.

[MorningDove030202]

Of course, a certain degree of that arises from having been burnt by it. There is a certain degree of sheilding against that when working within your trad, whereas there is a tendency for the general population to use you up, drop you where you fall and call you names after the fact. I know my clergy isn't going to turn away from anyone who comes to them in need, but they aren't exactly offering.

Yes, I supose some clergy has been "used" by those outside their tradition.... Still, there are come concrete sevices that clergy are needed for, like handfastings, funerals, and perhapse hospital visits.... (Though I don't think there should be a charge for hospital visits....)

Dove

[savannahrose44]

No! I hate the idea of paid clergy...all it leads to is corruption.

[badkitty]

I feel we already have proffesional clergy. Their practices and ethics are influenced by their faith, and as it is different than what is traditionally thought of as clergy in other traditions they might not be universally recognized as such, but there are many qualified, ethical leaders of our community that I personally recognize as clergy. I don't feel that we need validation from others to consider them such.

And in terms of pay, my teacher often pointed out that in the past the elders in a community would have been taken care of, gifting replaced money. I think the modern tendency to take what you can get and to not willingly participate in equal exchanges is a sad thing.

[MorningDove030202]

Paid for services, is different that just having a set salary.... With as many poor elders I've heard of I think they deserve to earn an income for their services. Honest pay for honest work, is what I say.
Dove

[savannahrose44]

Paid for services, is different that just having a set salary.... With as many poor elders I've heard of I think they deserve to earn an income for their services. Honest pay for honest work, is what I say.
Dove

This would work if the world were an honest place. I beleive in trade for services, but honestly a set salary...no thanks. I've seen what greed does to religous institutions and I would rather not. :nonono:

[MorningDove030202]

This would work if the world were an honest place. I beleive in trade for services, but honestly a set salary...no thanks. I've seen what greed does to religous institutions and I would rather not. :nonono:

I think payment for services would be acceptable in most situations today. But let me give you an example, a secular one, but still a non-profit situation....

There is a no-kill Cat sancturary near me that has official non profit status. They rescue cats, and adopt them out at my local Petsmart. There is a bord who runs the sanctuary with a vp, president and tresurer. This entire organisation was founded by one woman, we can call her Sara. As the founder she devoted alot of time to this organization and has spend lots of her own money getting it started, filling out all the paperwork to get that non-profit status, putting together a budget, and soliciting donations from local bunisnesses and animal welfare organizations. Not to mention the care, feeding, and cleaning of the cats that she has at her "farm". For a very long time she did not drawl any salary from the donations that were granted to the organization, but a few years ago the board voted to grant her a small salary because she deserved it. It's not a huge salary, and I don't think they even count the hours she puts in, it's more like a living stipend, and yes she does have a "real job", but the cat sanctuary needed more of ther time than she could aford to give, so the solution was to pay her for her time. She did not ask for the money, the board decided to give it to her.

I think it's a fair exchainge as long as a Church has a board that votes in a democratic way, then by all means Clergy do deserve to have a salary, if there is a conflict between the time that can be devoted to a job, and time that needs to be devoted to the Church. If a board doesn't want to give out a salary to Clergy, then others need to be willing to volunteer their time. But often 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people, and seldom does that chainge.

Dove

[savannahrose44]

I think payment for services would be acceptable in most situations today. But let me give you an example, a secular one, but still a non-profit situation....

There is a no-kill Cat sancturary near me that has official non profit status. They rescue cats, and adopt them out at my local Petsmart. There is a bord who runs the sanctuary with a vp, president and tresurer. This entire organisation was founded by one woman, we can call her Sara. As the founder she devoted alot of time to this organization and has spend lots of her own money getting it started, filling out all the paperwork to get that non-profit status, putting together a budget, and soliciting donations from local bunisnesses and animal welfare organizations. Not to mention the care, feeding, and cleaning of the cats that she has at her "farm". For a very long time she did not drawl any salary from the donations that were granted to the organization, but a few years ago the board voted to grant her a small salary because she deserved it. It's not a huge salary, and I don't think they even count the hours she puts in, it's more like a living stipend, and yes she does have a "real job", but the cat sanctuary needed more of ther time than she could aford to give, so the solution was to pay her for her time. She did not ask for the money, the board decided to give it to her.

I think it's a fair exchainge as long as a Church has a board that votes in a democratic way, then by all means Clergy do deserve to have a salary, if there is a conflict between the time that can be devoted to a job, and time that needs to be devoted to the Church. If a board doesn't want to give out a salary to Clergy, then others need to be willing to volunteer their time. But often 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people, and seldom does that chainge.

Dove

Sorry I guess I misunderstood the premise for the question posed. I thought this was in regards to like a pagan clergy. I don't belong to a church. :)

[DebLipp]

Sorry I guess I misunderstood the premise for the question posed. I thought this was in regards to like a pagan clergy. I don't belong to a church. :)

There are a few pagan churches. I was most impressed by Trinity Church in Albany. They have eclectic multi-group Pagan rituals there on a regular basis; about 7 local groups join for holidays. Other groups rent the space for things like a weekly drumming night or a weekly class or something. Anyone is welcome at open circles, so local solitaries can enjoy the shared space for Sabbats.

A space like that serves as a community center, and eventually services and possibilities expand. Something like that serves the community far beyond a single tradition or group. This is something we all can support, I think, and this is how we can envision Pagan clergy.

[MorningDove030202]

Sorry I guess I misunderstood the premise for the question posed. I thought this was in regards to like a pagan clergy. I don't belong to a church. :)

I mean a Pagan or Wiccan Church, and by saying Church I mean an organization that had done it's paperwork and has it's non profit status. A legaly incorporated religious organization...aka Church. Oh and if you don't belong to a Pagan church then you don't have to worry about Clergy.

Not everyone practices Wicca/Paganism as a "unorganized religion". Alot of Wicca and a lesser part of Paganism is actualy very much an "organized religion" though that doesn't mean we have adopted a whole lot of dogma.

Dove

[Draco Celtae]

Do we _really_ want to end up with a Paganism where some of us only go to Circle for Beltane, Samhain, and handfastings and leave all the serious spiritual work to professions?

Ffred
:thumbsup: oooh boy, we've got that self riteousness here in London Ont. with one of the larger groups. I also becomes an issue for me when one is asked to PAY a membership fee, in order to attend said events, or have any say at all...but thats another issue entire.

I personaly think that it would be a great idea to have some form of recognition as spiritual leaders, from the government. Maybe not "Clergy" status as most people view it...but...
Well you know when youre in University, or some work places, they have those councellors of faith, or Chaplains...etc.
I think there should be a pagan equivilent offered. Somewhere to turn when you want help, or guidance. Someone to teach, and listen to you...and I believe that person, if devoting that much of thier time to such selfless acts, should recieve payment...Like the clergy does, like councellors do, like chaplains do.

...I hope i make sense..hhaha, thats my two cents.

[Grey]

Heck yes there should be a pagan clergy!

Would they be the intermediates between us and the gods? No.
Would they hold all the power politically, spiritually, or financially? No.
Would they counsel others, and help them along their paths with wisdom and experiance? Yes.
Would they need a vast array of knowledge so they could teach newcomers? Yes
Would they help ease conversion from one religion to another? Yes
Would they try to help those around them as best they could in all matters? YES.

Pagan clergy are the "eldars" those who have had alot of experiance, and can pass that on. Those who know how to help people through trying times and bring on epiphanies, those with patience and understanding. Not only a strong faith in their chosen beliefs but the ablity to look at others beliefs and help them on their journeys aswell.

Donation plates? Hey if you run a temple youll need them... *shrug* Would I stand for a 10% tithe like in some churches? Would I stand for a demand for gifts to these people? Heck no!

Im a legal priest, a member of the clergy, in my state. Im a counselor and converter, and I try to share what knowledge I have with others or refer them to older and wiser heads when I cant, and yes I train new comers as best I can. Id say Im a member of the pagan clergy. I even have a temple... no one goes there though and no donations are taken because its MY sacred space, and I see no reason to change that.
Just my 2 cents.

[MorningDove030202]

I totaly agree with you! Just as NeoPaganism is a very differnt family of relgiions, so would our clergy be likewise different. Here is a good example of what Pagan clergy are doing in DC: http://www.dcpaganclergy.org/about.htm

I'm about halfway threw my first degree lesson and I hope be finished by next spring. I'm hoping to be initatied in person a the Lustration of the Ancestors at the nearest Correllian temple in DC. YEA!

Dove

[Sequoia]

Meh. Until "we" figure out exactly what "our" religion is, you can't have a 'professional clergy.'

Paganism is so darn broad. When will the masses realize this? :p :hehehehe:

The closest comparison I can get is issuing a single clergy for [b]every single branch[/i] of Christianity. This would INCLUDE Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, Baptist, etc. Can you envision the chaos? If not, look into how some of the sects hate eachother.

At any rate, perhaps for specific paths, such as Wicca and Asatru, you could have a "professional clergy", since they have fairly set-down ideas as to who and what they are. But for the majority of pagans, it just isn't possible.

I mean, come on. This 'religion' includes anything that is not one of the three Judeo-based religions. That leaves even obviously structured things like Buddhism, Shinto, any native religions... I'm hoping you get the picture. :lol:

[MorningDove030202]

No body said anything about one size fits all pagan clergy. I think the post was about "Clergy of your flavor of Paganism".... Naturaly "One size fits all clergy" wouldn't work.
Dove

Meh. Until "we" figure out exactly what "our" religion is, you can't have a 'professional clergy.'

Paganism is so darn broad. When will the masses realize this? :p :hehehehe:

The closest comparison I can get is issuing a single clergy for [b]every single branch[/i] of Christianity. This would INCLUDE Catholic, Mormon, Protestant, Baptist, etc. Can you envision the chaos? If not, look into how some of the sects hate eachother.

At any rate, perhaps for specific paths, such as Wicca and Asatru, you could have a "professional clergy", since they have fairly set-down ideas as to who and what they are. But for the majority of pagans, it just isn't possible.

I mean, come on. This 'religion' includes anything that is not one of the three Judeo-based religions. That leaves even obviously structured things like Buddhism, Shinto, any native religions... I'm hoping you get the picture. :lol:

[azzeenasman]

HMMM,wait a minute,this could be fun,we can get a pentecostal preacher and the lovely witches will have someone to practice casting spells on.I hope nobodys using me for practice. :shaker: Well,seriously,would that include christian clergy?And how much authority would they have?Would the pagan clergy purge the ranks of people ,like ,say me?
Maybe the christian clergy would tell me Im not really saved,Just wondering how that would work.

Seems to me when you get organized clergy invloved,division isnt far behind,everyone would pair off into clicks and we might loose our unity,or maybe not.Maybe the clergy will start fighting among themselves,they already do it now.Maybe that would be entertaining,who knows.

I think it would be nice to have a Rabbi,but heck,we got Morr,the dark goddess,she speaks reads and writes hebrew,Maybe we could convert some of the clergy,or corrupt them,whatever fits I guess. We can certianly teach some of the christian clergy a thing or too about respect.We have so many talented and loving people here,heck,we already are filled with clergys,teachers,prophets,seers,and so on.

Well,Im just babling and ,arent my Amy Lee pictures sooo lovely?And the smiley,s bowing down is so funny,Im proud of myself,I wonder if thats christian like to put them in my signature?Where is the clergy when ya need em.Ohhwell.

[Ishtara]

Great thread! Reading all your posts made me ponder things I had not thought of before and, to some extent, made me change my mind.

I immediately voted "No" in a kind of knee-jerk reaction because, like many others, I come from a Christian background and do not see that particular clergy in a very positive light. The intricate hierarchy and the many "middle men" between the faithful and God are actually two of the main reasons that turned me off Catholicism and made me convert to Lutheranism when I was younger.



Would they be the intermediates between us and the gods? No.
Would they hold all the power politically, spiritually, or financially? No.
Would they counsel others, and help them along their paths with wisdom and experiance? Yes.
Would they need a vast array of knowledge so they could teach newcomers? Yes
Would they help ease conversion from one religion to another? Yes
Would they try to help those around them as best they could in all matters? YES.


Now, *that* is the kind of clergy I would be all for. Especially for recon paths like mine: I am a beginner and quite content with being solitary at the moment, but I know that one day I will reach the limits of what I can teach myself and I would be happy to turn to someone who is better read and properly trained for guidance and further research.

So even though I am still a bit wary of the potential power struggles and excessive dogmatism that could arise, I have to agree that the concept of a professional clergy makes sense for some Pagan paths :uhhuhuh:

[cheddarsox]

I'm torn about this. But the truth is, clergy sort of emerges even when we don't plan for it. In any group there are natural leaders and teachers, or people who are nudged in that direction by the people around them. If a group becomes large enough, and the time, energy etc demands also become large, then I think it is fair to pay a person for their time and effort.

I kind of like how it is in my group now, still small enough that volunteer "clergy" can handle it, and that the group itself manages to meet the needs of its members. But honestly, most people don't want to lead and teach, they want someone they consider an "expert" who will handle stuff for them. All the time in my group we try to get people to help plan ritual etc. All we hear is "I'm not creative, I don't know enough, so and so is sooo good at it." etc etc. It has been really hard to get people who are willing to put themselves out there for the group.

I think most folks are good about tending to their own personal spirituality, but feel inadequate, intimidated or too exposed by creating for group experience. There are other people who are energized by creating group experience, those people become de facto clergy, and eventually, I guess some of them will become official clergy.

One of the difficulties I see with clergy, is that most are asked to be experts in too many areas. People want them to create meaningful spiritual experiences, visit the sick, fix the sink, pay the bills, do PR, handle static for the entire group, be a friend, counselor, teacher, and make the whole group look really good! Most humans are not gifted in all those areas at once. Group dynamics are interesting, but a little scary. We put people in leadership positions and then do all we can to tear them down and apart. We ask them to do things we are unwilling and unable to do, and then complain that they aren't perfect either. This is human nature. But it is one of the real challenges of clergy, because most of the time, they are not adequately compensated, because, somehow they should be doing it for spiritual reasons right? And spirituality shouldn't be about money, and hey...I'm a little short this month..

We want professionalism without having to behave professionally on our side.

Like I said, it's human nature, so I don't see it changing anytime soon. Leadership without big bucks and a retirement plan is sort of a thankless job, but optimistic people will step forward and serve because they have big hopes, and big hearts.

cheddar

[bbnflpn]

i dont know how i feel about this, my self i am impartial to the cleargy part. however, i would like to have a handfasting that is recognized by the state of california. luckly my coveners are official clreargy in that respect and i would not hesitate to have them preforme the handfasting ritual. since i am rather new to beeing in the coven, i suppose there are a lot of things that i will need to get use to and i never thought that there was much cleargy going on, we have our rites and sabbats and esabbats ect. and we are happy with that but it was never really an issue of cleargy or not cleargy. i gusess i wil have to do some more reserch on this and get back to you about it