Is the Wiccan Rede a LAW, or what?

[Lunacie]

I see so many people who say they believe that the Wiccan Rede is a Law that all Wiccans must follow, and they don't really seem to understand what the Rede means. It's impossible for a human being to never cause any harm to themselves, to other living beings, or to the environment. If it were such a law it would be impossible to follow. From what I've learned the Rede was written to illustrate how Wiccans should be responsible in using magic/energy. What do YOU think it means?

(please explain)

[Amethyst Rose]

I think it is a guideline of how to live a moral life. Nothing more than a suggestion. :)

[Mab]

IMO--a guideline...a good idea....much like the Golden Rule. And, frankly, some ppl need a bit of fear of what they put out coming back three-fold to keep them in line.

[Athena-Nadine]

OK, I'll give it a shot (though we all know I'm not Wiccan :) ):

I was always taught by my Wiccan friends that it simply means, as long as your action will harm none, then do what you will (not necessarily whatever you want) with impunity, the theory behind that being that since it is impossible to harm nothing, no matter how careful, the consequences of all actions must be weighed before doing anything. And after weighing the consequences, take the right action for a situation--and sometimes right action causes harm by its very nature--but be willing and prepared to face the consequences. I was taught that it was never intended to mean, "Harm none," but to take personal responsibility for everything in your life.

I don't think it's a law. From what I know, it was never meant to be a law, but a suggestion. I think it's a good bit of advice.

[OKmagnolia]

I see so many people who say they believe that the Wiccan Rede is a Law that all Wiccans must follow, and they don't really seem to understand what the Rede means. It's impossible for a human being to never cause any harm to themselves, to other living beings, or to the environment. If it were such a law it would be impossible to follow. From what I've learned the Rede was written to illustrate how Wiccans should be responsible in using magic/energy. What do YOU think it means?

(please explain)


I think that the same thing can be asked of the Bible too. Is it a Law or a Moral code?

For me it is a moral code and guideline. I mean a person can hardly go through life and never harm another living being and more than they can life up to all the rules in the Bible. I think that it is up to each of us to strive to do this. No we aren't going to be perfect, but we all learn from our mistakes and move on. So to me The Wiccan Rede is a guideeline of how we should "try" to not harm another living thing.It is in the trying that matters not being perfect about it. But that is just my opinion.

[Erebus]

It's a threat. An empty one, at that.

[misschief]

i chose a pretty poem. i don't believe in it.

[Iris]

I suppose you CAN'T live your life without harming someone sooner or later...to me what the Rede means (I pretty much follow it, although I'm not sure I'd call myself Wiccan) is 'try not to DELIBERATELY harm anyone, and try to be aware of and limit the ways in which your actions and words can inadvertedly harm people." For me, this applies to magick and life too. :)

[misschief]

well i have used magic to harm intentionally. it was necessary at the time, and i don't care what the wiccan rede says, i'll be damned if i let that get in the way of protecting my family. sometimes there are curcumstances that the rede doesn't account for. *shrug* just stopping someone isn't always an option. if you believe it, cool, then you believe it. i just don't.

[Tzhebee]

Other. It's a nice but unrealistic attempt at providing morality to the (non-christian) masses.

[misschief]

i think the point is do what you think is right. bottom line. i don't see a need for all these extavagant rules and regulations. bah.

[auryn]

law
n.

1. A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority.
2.
1. The body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community and enforced by a political authority; a legal system: international law.
2. The condition of social order and justice created by adherence to such a system: a breakdown of law and civilized behavior.
3. A set of rules or principles dealing with a specific area of a legal system: tax law; criminal law.
4. A piece of enacted legislation.
5.
1. The system of judicial administration giving effect to the laws of a community: All citizens are equal before the law.
2. Legal action or proceedings; litigation: submit a dispute to law.
3. An impromptu or extralegal system of justice substituted for established judicial procedure: frontier law.
6.
1. An agency or agent responsible for enforcing the law. Often used with the: “The law... stormed out of the woods as the vessel was being relieved of her cargo” (Sid Moody).
2. Informal. A police officer. Often used with the.
7.
1. The science and study of law; jurisprudence.
2. Knowledge of law.
3. The profession of an attorney.
8. Something, such as an order or a dictum, having absolute or unquestioned authority: The commander's word was law.
9. Law
1. The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible.
2. The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.
10. A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature.
11.
1. A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain: the unwritten laws of good sportsmanship.
2. A way of life: the law of the jungle.
12.
1. A statement describing a relationship observed to be invariable between or among phenomena for all cases in which the specified conditions are met: the law of gravity.
2. A generalization based on consistent experience or results: the law of supply and demand.
13. Mathematics. A general principle or rule that is assumed or that has been proven to hold between expressions.
14. A principle of organization, procedure, or technique: the laws of grammar; the laws of visual perspective.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Depending on which definition you are using, it is a law.

Within a coven, to a solitary, etc., the rede can be "A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority". Some believe it is " The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible" (presuming the divine will is that of the Gods). There's also "A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature", "A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain", and "A way of life".

[misschief]

so far i'm the only vote for a pretty poem :lol:

[auryn]

Other. It's a nice but unrealistic attempt at providing morality to the (non-christian) masses.

Err... non Christian? So Islamic, Jewish, Buddhist, Taoist, Kemetic, Satanic, Hellenic, etc. etc. etc. masses?

I'm just being silly :hehehe:

[Lunacie]

well i have used magic to harm intentionally. it was necessary at the time, and i don't care what the wiccan rede says, i'll be damned if i let that get in the way of protecting my family. sometimes there are curcumstances that the rede doesn't account for. *shrug* just stopping someone isn't always an option. if you believe it, cool, then you believe it. i just don't.And there is the sticking point for many Wiccans, but that interpretation of the Rede isn't correct from what I've learned. It doesn't say that you can do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone; and that you should never, ever hurt anyone. Part of the full text of the Rede follows "do as ye will", saying, "lest in self-defense it be."

If what you are doing with magic and intent doesn't/won't/isn't-intended-to hurt anyone then feel free to use and explore magic. There are other ways we are taught to be responsible in what we do and say, both mundanely and magically, such as the Law of Returns (the Law of Three or Ten or whatever).

[Lunacie]

Depending on which definition you are using, it is a law.

Within a coven, to a solitary, etc., the rede can be "A rule of conduct or procedure established by custom, agreement, or authority". Some believe it is " The body of principles or precepts held to express the divine will, especially as revealed in the Bible" (presuming the divine will is that of the Gods). There's also "A code of principles based on morality, conscience, or nature", "A rule or custom generally established in a particular domain", and "A way of life".

I don't believe it was intended or written to be a 'law'. Saying it's a 'code' or a 'custom' or a 'way of life' describes it better in my opinion.

[Amethyst Rose]

It's a threat. An empty one, at that.

How can it possibly be interpreted as a threat?? Nothing in the Rede is even remotely threatening. Perhaps you're thinking of the Rule of Three? In which case, there's the "threat" of having your actions returned on you, but I view it as a reminder about consequences and nothing more.

[~Elise~]

so far i'm the only vote for a pretty poem :lol:
I'm there with you on the pretty poem, believe it or not.

All is not goodness and light, IMO. When you pick up a stick--you pick up both ends. You better know how to handle the dark as well as the light.

Again, JMO

Elise

[Lilith79]

I look at the Rede as a karmic rule in a sense. When I've broken it, the bad comes back. When I keep it, the good comes back. :)

[misschief]

i don't even take it as that.*shrug* i mean.. it was only written in the last few years, it's not like it's an ancient text or something.

[Gede]

MM~
For a little historical background I suggest you head off to this link:

http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede.shtml

Because I am not Wiccan, or at least I do not pertain to the religious aspects of Wicca (including morality etc.) I have never really felt close to the Wiccan Rede. In and of itself, as a piece of poetry, it is a little scattered and somewhat mislead in they rhyming scheme. Things seem to jump around and rearrange as the words are being read. There is a lot of meaningless or irrelevant insertions of couplets that truly seem to be random, but then again I do not know the intention of the author at the time. The culmination of the poem itself, what is concisely known as the Rede "An' ye harm none; do what ye will" is not so much a strict law, but rather an ethical suggestion, a move to become more peaceful with one's surroundings and with oneself. To at least try to live harmoniously. That is why I voted "other" because it is not a law, a pretty piece of poetry, or whatever else to me, it is ethical suggestion, and perhaps even the capacity of one's intent once it has been "refined" by Wiccan perception. So in a way it parallels Aleister Crowley's Law..."Do what thou wilt be the whole the law...Love is the Law, Love under Will" which in the context of a pure gnosis obtained through knowing one's true Will (refined, spiritual and divine) is not so much a liscence to commit whatever horrible deed you want, in fact it is a much more compassionate principle than that. Rather the Law underlies one's own true Love, Will and Destiny, which do not serve themselves in the meaningless destruction of pettiness and triviality. And I hope that made sense ;)

Namaste, Gede...

[Ben Gruagach]

MM~
For a little historical background I suggest you head off to this link:

http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede.shtml

Because I am not Wiccan, or at least I do not pertain to the religious aspects of Wicca (including morality etc.) I have never really felt close to the Wiccan Rede. In and of itself, as a piece of poetry, it is a little scattered and somewhat mislead in they rhyming scheme. Things seem to jump around and rearrange as the words are being read. There is a lot of meaningless or irrelevant insertions of couplets that truly seem to be random, but then again I do not know the intention of the author at the time. The culmination of the poem itself, what is concisely known as the Rede "An' ye harm none; do what ye will" is not so much a strict law, but rather an ethical suggestion, a move to become more peaceful with one's surroundings and with oneself. To at least try to live harmoniously. That is why I voted "other" because it is not a law, a pretty piece of poetry, or whatever else to me, it is ethical suggestion, and perhaps even the capacity of one's intent once it has been "refined" by Wiccan perception. So in a way it parallels Aleister Crowley's Law..."Do what thou wilt be the whole the law...Love is the Law, Love under Will" which in the context of a pure gnosis obtained through knowing one's true Will (refined, spiritual and divine) is not so much a liscence to commit whatever horrible deed you want, in fact it is a much more compassionate principle than that. Rather the Law underlies one's own true Love, Will and Destiny, which do not serve themselves in the meaningless destruction of pettiness and triviality. And I hope that made sense ;)

Namaste, Gede...

I'm glad you posted that link as it's a very helpful site when looking at the Wiccan Rede (which is "An it harm none, do what you will" or some variation of that wording) and the long poem known as The Rede of the Wiccae. The longer poem happens to include the Wiccan Rede within it, and because the title of the long poem is so similar many people often confuse the two.

The biggest thing to remember in both cases is that the word "rede" means "advice" and not "law." They are suggestions or guidelines, not hard and fast rules.

The big thing I take from the Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what you will" is that it is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what to do, that we should strive to minimize harm, and consequently we are responsible for the consequences of our actions. The "threefold law" to me just reinforces this as it really just says actions produce consequences. There is no reward or punishment in either of those -- it's more about recognizing that things are connected and our decisions affect things rather than anything mystical or magickal.

Personally, as a Wiccan, I think the Wiccan Rede and the threefold law taken together provide a wonderful foundation on which one can base a life philosophy. They sound simple but they are in fact quite sophisticated and mature concepts that put the responsibility squarely on each and every one of us.

[Iris]

i don't even take it as that.*shrug* i mean.. it was only written in the last few years, it's not like it's an ancient text or something.

Does something have to be an 'ancient text' for it to be valid?

[unicornlightining]

I was going to post a huge thing and then Gede hit the nail on the head. I wish I had more Karma to give. I really think his post captures it very well. I voted moral code, but I belive that a thing can be more then one color. Also why dose something need to to old to be true or relevant? The wiccan reed seems to be based of of 'Age old' themes in many cultures. I'm not even wiccan, but I see that my morals fall within it's bounds. I do also agree with the above posters who said such things as knowing both sides and 'black' magick cast in self defense. I belive it to be a last resort, but I belive in using all tools available. Anyway it seems as though I'm ranting . . . .
THe Greatest Good to All

[AterCorax]

Just a pretty poem to me personally.

Of course, it could mean something to Wiccans.

-Ater

[IvyWitch]

I think it's really just yet another re-wording of the golden rule. The poem that was written to go with it.....to be honest I think it's a rather bad poem. *shrug*

[AterCorax]

DISCLAIMER: This post iso get me to 555. :)

I think it's really just yet another re-wording of the golden rule. The poem that was written to go with it.....to be honest I think it's a rather bad poem. *shrug*

Everybody has a different opinion of poetry, etc. It's all good.

Hmm, but I did say it was 'just pretty,' because, well, it is.

...and so the story goes.

-Ater

[IvyWitch]

DISCLAIMER: This post iso get me to 555. :)



Everybody has a different opinion of poetry, etc. It's all good.

Hmm, but I did say it was 'just pretty,' because, well, it is.

...and so the story goes.

-Ater

:muwaha: Now you just need to get to 666 ^__^

[Teresa]

I think it is a guideline of how to live a moral life. Nothing more than a suggestion. :)
I agree.Its like a code of conduct so to speak.

[Lady Avalon]

Bide the Wiccan Laws ye must,
In perfect love and perfect trust,
Soft of eye and light of touch,
Speak thou little, listen much.
Merry meet and merry part,
Bright of cheek and warm of heart.
Mind the Threefold Way ye should,
Three time back for bad or good.
These eight words the Rede fulfill,
And harm ye none do what ye will.

My Medicine Woman taught me that "Emotion causes Karma, Wisdom erases it".

The willful act of harming another in thought, word, or deed is what the law is talking about. It is hard, but not impossible.

I still work on it every day. You have no idea how many times I stop and say: "I take that out of the law".

The Lord and Lady are very forgiving. It is our emotions that get us into trouble.

It is ok to be angry, sad, happy, etc. When we are angry and in pain, we lash out at some one to try and make them hurt as much as we are hurting. We must remember that we are responsible for our own emotions.

No one makes you angry. You choose to be angry. No one makes you sad. You chose to be sad. You have the right to make a free will choice. So does every one else.

When I decide that I don't like someone, I leave that person alone. When someone tells me that they don't like me, I leave that person alone.

I choose to respect someone else's free will choice. It helps me to live by the law.

[fay]

i personally think that the rede, in both forms, is a reminder of a way to live your life. i voted for moral code as i think that it is a suggestion of just that. i take the rede to be a guideline that you may choose to follow. i think that it means that you should be aware of the consequences of your actions, nothing is without consequence. you should not deliberatly hurt others for no reason. some may say that this is an obvious human thing, but it never hurts to be reminded.
i like the rede, i like the sentiment and i think that its pretty. no its not an ancient text, but wicca is not an ancient religion. just because somebody said something 500 years ago does not make it any more valid than what i said 2 seconds ago. (that wasnt supposed to sound like a rant, sorry if it does :bigredblu )
blessed be

[Ben Trismegistus]

The Wiccan Rede is something that people make WAY too big of a deal over.

It's a saying, a proverb, an aphorism. All it's saying is "Actions have consequences." Anyone who is a truly spiritual person doesn't need somebody else's poem to tell them the right way to behave. So it's not an order, a law, or even a rule. It's just a saying.

I just wish that it didn't come up so often.

[misschief]

The Wiccan Rede is something that people make WAY too big of a deal over.

It's a saying, a proverb, an aphorism. All it's saying is "Actions have consequences." Anyone who is a truly spiritual person doesn't need somebody else's poem to tell them the right way to behave. So it's not an order, a law, or even a rule. It's just a saying.

I just wish that it didn't come up so often.couldn't have said it better. i think that's what i've been getting at, just couldn't think of a way to say it :lol:

[DebLipp]

The Wiccan Rede is NOT a "pretty poem." The Wiccan Rede is not a poem, pretty or otherwise. The poem, which you might consider pretty, that begins "Bide the Wiccan Laws Ye Must" is NOT the Wiccan Rede. It is a poem written in the 1960s influenced by the Wiccan Rede, which existed for at least a decade longer.

I chose "other" because the Rede is a guideline; a moral precept, not a code. It can't be a code because it doesn't codify anything. It can only be a principle. It is a good principle. I like it because it implies that what we do is probably good, except in some specific circumstances. This is the opposite of most religions, which tell us that what we do is probably bad, unless we follow certain rules.

Historically, Wicca itself pre-dates the Rede. For this reason, I resent and object to the Rede being used as a "test of faith," i.e. people saying you're not Wiccan if you don't abide by the Rede. Bullfeathers. It is nice that the principals of the Rede are a part of many people's practice and beliefs, but that's all.

[Lunacie]

I posted this poll because I'm tired of seeing people make the assumption that those eight words are the major precept or dogma of the Wiccan religion, and it just ain't so. I don't think 'precept' is the right way to describe the Wiccan Rede, unless you are using the definition of "instruction" instead of "rule" or "law", but 'principle' is a good way of explaining.

[Kern]

http://www.starcraftsob.com/craft/images/wiccanrede.jpg

The Law of the Power


The Power shall not be used to bring harm, to injure or
control others. But if the need rises, the Power shall be
used to protect your life or the lives of others.
The Power is used only as need dictates.

The Power can be used for your own gain, as long as by
doing so you harm none.

It is unwise to accept money for use of the Power, for it
quickly controls its taker. Be not as those of other
religions.

Use not the Power for prideful gain, for such cheapens
the mysteries of Wicca and magick.

Ever remember that the Power is the sacred gift of the
Goddess and God, and should never be misused or abused.

And this is the law of the Power.

To me both are moral codes and are good to go bye,but if a Wiccan doesnt live by them,it doesn't make one not Wiccan or that person isnt going to a burning hell fire. To me Wicca is a nature based belief first,not whether one lives by the Rede or the Power of Three.

[Ben Gruagach]

The Law of the Power

Just so the newer people are aware, the stuff that Kern just posted is a simplified version with more accessible wording drawn from a number of Wiccan texts.

The first bit draws some of its material from a poem called "The Rede of the Wiccae" that, as Deb Lipp pointed out, doesn't really trace any farther back than the 1960s. The Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what you will" predates the 1960s although it was also a later addition to Wicca and wasn't considered central back in the 1950s when Gerald Gardner was first promoting the religion. That "eight words" phrasing is likely the work of Doreen Valiente, who first mentioned it in a speech she gave in the 1960s which was widely quoted in various Pagan magazines and books. (You can read up on all this at http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede.shtml which was mentioned before, and also in a wonderful essay written by Shea Thomas which I really hope gets published somewhere -- Shea had it on his website a while ago but it isn't on the web at the moment.)

The rest of the material seems to be derived from "the Ardanes" or Wiccan Laws, which can be found in various forms in different places. The oldest is from Gerald Gardner's book of shadows, where he called it "The Old Laws." You can read them at http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/index.htm -- just scroll down for the link to "The Old Laws."

Even when Gardner presented "The Old Laws" to his coven back in the 1950s when Doreen Valiente was his high priestess, they were not accepted as anything other than his own invention by Valiente and a few others in the group. Valiente talks about this, and how she and Gardner broke off working together over it and other issues, in her book "The Rebirth of Witchcraft."

So while things like "The Rede of the Wiccae," the Wiccan Rede, and even "The Old Laws" are certainly interesting and inspiring, and are used as the basis for what some Wiccans and established traditions believe, they are definitely not authoritative nor are they mandatory for Wicca as a whole.

Doreen Valiente and the other members of Gardner's coven were certainly Wiccans back in the 1950s before any of these things were introduced to Wicca, so those who don't follow them today can also be Wiccan too.

[Kern]

Just so the newer people are aware, the stuff that Kern just posted is a simplified version with more accessible wording drawn from a number of Wiccan texts.

The first bit draws some of its material from a poem called "The Rede of the Wiccae" that, as Deb Lipp pointed out, doesn't really trace any farther back than the 1960s. The Wiccan Rede, "An it harm none, do what you will" predates the 1960s although it was also a later addition to Wicca and wasn't considered central back in the 1950s when Gerald Gardner was first promoting the religion. That "eight words" phrasing is likely the work of Doreen Valiente, who first mentioned it in a speech she gave in the 1960s which was widely quoted in various Pagan magazines and books. (You can read up on all this at http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede.shtml which was mentioned before, and also in a wonderful essay written by Shea Thomas which I really hope gets published somewhere -- Shea had it on his website a while ago but it isn't on the web at the moment.)

The rest of the material seems to be derived from "the Ardanes" or Wiccan Laws, which can be found in various forms in different places. The oldest is from Gerald Gardner's book of shadows, where he called it "The Old Laws." You can read them at http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/index.htm -- just scroll down for the link to "The Old Laws."

Even when Gardner presented "The Old Laws" to his coven back in the 1950s when Doreen Valiente was his high priestess, they were not accepted as anything other than his own invention by Valiente and a few others in the group. Valiente talks about this, and how she and Gardner broke off working together over it and other issues, in her book "The Rebirth of Witchcraft."

So while things like "The Rede of the Wiccae," the Wiccan Rede, and even "The Old Laws" are certainly interesting and inspiring, and are used as the basis for what some Wiccans and established traditions believe, they are definitely not authoritative nor are they mandatory for Wicca as a whole.

Doreen Valiente and the other members of Gardner's coven were certainly Wiccans back in the 1950s before any of these things were introduced to Wicca, so those who don't follow them today can also be Wiccan too.

Thanks for the Info,And yeah its true that the Rede,And the Power of the Law were introduced later than the 1950's. :muwaha:

[Kern]

"Bide these Wiccan laws ye must,
With perfect love and perfect trust;
Live ye must and let to live,
Fairly take and fairly give.
Cast the circle thrice about,
To keep unwelcome spirits out.
To bind the magick every time,
Let the spell be spoke in rhyme.
Soft of eye and light of touch,
Speak ye little, listen much.
Honor the Old Ones in deed and name,
Let love and light be our guides again.
Deosil go by the waxing Moon,
Chanting out the joyful tune.
Widdershins go by the waning Moon,
Chanting out the baneful rune.
When the Lady's moon is new,
kiss the hands to her, times two.
When the moon rides at her peak,
then your heart's desire seek.
Heed the North wind's mighty gale:
Lock the door and trim the sail.
When the wind blows from the East,
Expect the new and set the feast.
When the wind comes from the south,
Love will kiss thee on the mouth.
When it whispers from the West,
Aching hearts find peace and rest.
Nine woods in the cauldron go,
burn them fast and burn them slow:
Birch into the fire goes
In sign of what the Lady knows.
Oak in the forest towers with might,
In the fire brings the Gods in sight.
Rowan is a tree of power,
Causing life and magic to flower.
Willows which by water stand
Ease us to the Summerland.
Hawthorn is burned to purify,
And to draw Faerie to your eye.
Hazel, the tree of wisdom and learning,
Adds its strength to the bright fire burning.
White are the flowers of apple tree,
That brings us fruits of fertility.
Grapes which grow upon the vine,
Give to us both joy and wine.
Fir tree bough are evergreen
Immortal life in them is seen.
Elder wood, the Lady's tree --
burn it not, or cursed be.
Four times the Major Sabbats mark,
Twice in light and twice in dark.
In death the spark of life is born
At Samhain when the veil is torn.
When the time for Imbolg shows,
Watch for flowers through the snows.
When the Wheel begins to turn,
Soon the Beltaine fires will burn.
As the wheel turns to Lugh's night,
Power is brought to magic rite.
Four times the Minor Sabbats fall,
Use the Sun to mark them all.
When the Wheel has turned to Yule,
Light the log - the Horned One rules.
In the Spring, night equals day,
Time for Ostara to come our way.
When the Sun has reached its height,
Time for Oak and Holly to fight.
Harvesting comes home for all
When the Autumn Equinox does fall.
Learning flower, bush, and tree;
by the Lady, blessed be.
Where the rippling waters go,
cast the stone and truth you'll know.
When ye have and hold a need,
harken not to others' greed.
With a fool no seasons spend,
Lest ye be counted as his friend.
Merry meet and merry part;
bright the cheeks and warm the heart.
Mind the Threefold Law ye should:
Three times bad and three times good.
When misfortune is enow,
Wear the blue Star on thy brow.
True in love thou must ever be,
lest thy love prove false to thee.
Eight words the Witches' Rede fulfill,
An' it harm none, do what thou will."

This version of The Wiccan Rede" was written by the family of Lady Gwen Thompson and passed to her in the early part of her life. She was the founder of the N.E.C.T.W. Tradition. She passed away in 1986 and has left a living Tradition with member scattered throughout the US. The Rede was copy written back in the `70's as was the rest of her Book.

Explanations of certain parts of the Rede
Deosil-to move in a clockwise direction
Waxing-a time that the moon is in its "increasing" phase-going from new moon to full moon
Widdershins-to move in a counter clockwise direction
Waning-a time when the moon is "decreasing" from full to new
Rune-refers to the Witches' Rune
Nine woods in the cauldron go
Refers to the following woods which correspond to those traits listed next to each
Birch - representing the Goddess or female principle.
Oak - symbolizing the God or male principle.
Rowan, or mountain ash - as the Tree of Life. A taste of its fruit stays hunger. Add Rowan for life.
Willow - as the tree of death. Sacred to Hecate, add willow as a celebration of death.
Hawthorn - tree of purification. Sacred to faeries, add hawthorn for purity.
Hazel - tree of wisdom. Add hazel to gain wisdow.
Apple - tree of love. Add apple wood for the magic of love.
Vine - tree of joy. It's juice capable of altering consciousness. Add vine for joy.
Fir - tree of immortality. Add fir to your Beltane fire for rebirth.
Lady-the Goddess
Summerland- place of rest on enters after death and before rebirth into a new lifetime
Faerie-fae, fairies, thought by some to be spirits of plants
Major Sabbats- Imbolg, Beltane (summer of light) and Lughnasahd, Samhain (winter or dark) are the 4 major Sabbats
Minor Sabbats-Yule, Ostara, Litha, Mabon are the 4 minor Sabbats
Threefold Law-Karmic law or retribution-anything you do comes backtoyou three times over whether you do good or bad.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

it's more of a guideline. ;)

[Lunacie]

http://www.starcraftsob.com/craft/images/wiccanrede.jpg

The Law of the Power


The Power shall not be used to bring harm, to injure or
control others. But if the need rises, the Power shall be
used to protect your life or the lives of others.
The Power is used only as need dictates.

The Power can be used for your own gain, as long as by
doing so you harm none.

It is unwise to accept money for use of the Power, for it
quickly controls its taker. Be not as those of other
religions.

Use not the Power for prideful gain, for such cheapens
the mysteries of Wicca and magick.

Ever remember that the Power is the sacred gift of the
Goddess and God, and should never be misused or abused.

And this is the law of the Power.

To me both are moral codes and are good to go bye,but if a Wiccan doesnt live by them,it doesn't make one not Wiccan or that person isnt going to a burning hell fire. To me Wicca is a nature based belief first,not whether one lives by the Rede or the Power of Three.

Thank you Kern, this is the kind of thing I've been learning about what the Rede was really supposed to mean, but didn't know where to find it.

And thank you BenG for posting the links.

[Ben Gruagach]

This version of The Wiccan Rede" was written by the family of Lady Gwen Thompson and passed to her in the early part of her life. She was the founder of the N.E.C.T.W. Tradition. She passed away in 1986 and has left a living Tradition with member scattered throughout the US. The Rede was copy written back in the `70's as was the rest of her Book.

The poem you quoted, which is actually called "The Rede of the Wiccae", might have been passed down in part within Lady Gwen Thompson's family as she claimed.

However....

The poem was not shown to anyone outside Lady Gwen's family until around the mid 1960s, after Doreen Valiente had given her speech where she said, "eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfil: An it harm none, do what you will." Doreen's speech apparently hit a nerve because the Wiccan Rede, particularly that eight-word phrasing, was subsequently quoted in a number of Pagan magazines and books. Lady Gwen is known to have read one of the magazines where Doreen's speech was quoted (I think she wrote an article for the magazine, if I'm remembering correctly.)

So....
The fact that Lady Gwen's poem includes the eight-words phrasing of the Wiccan Rede, and her poem coincidentally didn't appear until after Doreen's speech, tells me that the poem in the form Lady Gwen presented it doesn't date prior to the 1960s or Doreen's speech.

Lady Gwen had the poem published for the first time in the Pagan magazine Green Egg in 1975, just over a decade after Doreen's speech.

It was quite common (and still comes up at times) for people to claim that their grandmother or other now conveniently dead relative had taught them Wicca or had given them various bits of Wiccan lore. It's called the "grandmother story" and more often than not is just someone's attempt to claim antiquity for something that isn't really that old. The problem (or beauty, depending on how you look at it) with the grandmother story is that the ancestor who provides the direct link to an ancient past is no longer around to confirm or deny the story, and has left nothing behind to serve as proof other than their descendant's word of honour.

Ideas can be valuable to us even if they were invented yesterday. Some ideas from long ago are valuable too but they can also be disproven by newer material. Don't let someone try to impress you by how old an idea is supposed to be -- if it's worthless it's still worthless regardless how young or old it is. The idea needs to prove its value in ways other than just by claiming to be old.

[Kern]

The poem you quoted, which is actually called "The Rede of the Wiccae", might have been passed down in part within Lady Gwen Thompson's family as she claimed.

However....

The poem was not shown to anyone outside Lady Gwen's family until around the mid 1960s, after Doreen Valiente had given her speech where she said, "eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfil: An it harm none, do what you will." Doreen's speech apparently hit a nerve because the Wiccan Rede, particularly that eight-word phrasing, was subsequently quoted in a number of Pagan magazines and books. Lady Gwen is known to have read one of the magazines where Doreen's speech was quoted (I think she wrote an article for the magazine, if I'm remembering correctly.)

So....
The fact that Lady Gwen's poem includes the eight-words phrasing of the Wiccan Rede, and her poem coincidentally didn't appear until after Doreen's speech, tells me that the poem in the form Lady Gwen presented it doesn't date prior to the 1960s or Doreen's speech.

Lady Gwen had the poem published for the first time in the Pagan magazine Green Egg in 1975, just over a decade after Doreen's speech.

It was quite common (and still comes up at times) for people to claim that their grandmother or other now conveniently dead relative had taught them Wicca or had given them various bits of Wiccan lore. It's called the "grandmother story" and more often than not is just someone's attempt to claim antiquity for something that isn't really that old. The problem (or beauty, depending on how you look at it) with the grandmother story is that the ancestor who provides the direct link to an ancient past is no longer around to confirm or deny the story, and has left nothing behind to serve as proof other than their descendant's word of honour.

Ideas can be valuable to us even if they were invented yesterday. Some ideas from long ago are valuable too but they can also be disproven by newer material. Don't let someone try to impress you by how old an idea is supposed to be -- if it's worthless it's still worthless regardless how young or old it is. The idea needs to prove its value in ways other than just by claiming to be old.
I agree Ben,I was merely posting what the articel said,,,those were not my words... :fpeek:

[Kern]

Thank you Kern, this is the kind of thing I've been learning about what the Rede was really supposed to mean, but didn't know where to find it.
YW! :lilangel:

[dr_zeus440]

im goin with other, coz its not even pretty...worst poem ever...

[ap Dafydd]

Often people worry too much about the rede.

As has already been said, "rede" means "advice" and in my mind it's pretty good advice, especially in contrast to other religions which abound in prohibitions of all sorts of things which really do "harm none". They have the 10 Commendments, we have the Wiccan Rede.

It's personally empowering: if it harms none, do as you will.

It teaches tolerance of others' behaviour: if it harms none, do as you will

And it teaches us to think about the fact that our actions all have consequences: if it harms none, do as you will.

What it doesn't do is to tell you that you should only do something if you can be sure that it won't harm anyone. And it doesn't tell you what to do if none of your options is free from harnful consequences. In those circumstances, you've got to have regard to other moral considerations.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Kalika]

I tend to see the Rede as more of a moral code... some choose to follow it, some don't. I think its a good guideline... especially for newcomers to the wiccan/pagan/witch path... but that doesn't mean that you have to follow it.

[Kern]

Not sure if any one posted this link here or not but its a pretty good article about the Rede.
http://wicca.timerift.net/rede.html

[Iseult]

OK, I'll give it a shot (though we all know I'm not Wiccan :) ):

I was always taught by my Wiccan friends that it simply means, as long as your action will harm none, then do what you will (not necessarily whatever you want) with impunity, the theory behind that being that since it is impossible to harm nothing, no matter how careful, the consequences of all actions must be weighed before doing anything. And after weighing the consequences, take the right action for a situation--and sometimes right action causes harm by its very nature--but be willing and prepared to face the consequences. I was taught that it was never intended to mean, "Harm none," but to take personal responsibility for everything in your life.

I don't think it's a law. From what I know, it was never meant to be a law, but a suggestion. I think it's a good bit of advice.

I think that's pretty spot on.

I look at it as a reasonable consideration to make in all aspects of life, not just when practising magic. It's something I always consider, though that's not to say that I profess to never harm anyone. I don't think we can realise the implications of our actions that far ahead to ever claim that we are harming no one, but it should be a part of the decision-making process. I wish the whole world would give it some thought!

It's also important to remember that 'harm none' includes not harming yourself; so making yourself a doormat in the effort not to harm anyone else is not an option either.

And I definitely think that the majority of people need to take more responsibility for their actions and the things that happen in their lives.

I shall now step down from my soapbox. :)

Iseult

[Cielamara]

It's a nice poem.
(Okay, it's actually pretty sucky, but you know what I mean.)
I do what I will. I try to weigh my decisions and consider what will happen. But then again, I don't believe in the Threefold Law...I do believe that what you do will get back to you, but I don't think that, I don't know, throwing a rock at a squirrel means you're going to get back three times as bad for that poor squirrel's treatment. I believe in karma and samsara...each thing you does gets a "karmic point in the karma bank", meaning, when you die, and your soul is recycled in samsara, your life will reflect what you've done.
I try to do "good" things. I try to be kind and compassionate, and to not hurt people. However, if someone hurts me, it's fair game. I see it as simply returning the energy. I am being taught by my patron goddess to learn to embrace the darker side in me--and I've come to a conclusion. The only true "evil" in the world--aside from lower-level entities and nasties that like to hurt you--is the evil you display when you turn aside from your darker instincts and only "embrace the light."
But, that's just me.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

The Rede = a unpretty poem, put forth in a bad attempt at Olde Englyshe. If Gewn Thompson wishes us to believe it an ancient Wiccan thing, well, she'll have to work really hard to convince me, when gardner himself spoke of 'Harm None' only as a way to get Christians to stop believing in witches - see the aforementioned Old Laws on Sacred Texts. Since witches are no longer executed in many parts of the world, I daresay that Wiccans may therefore go about cursing and hexing as much as they like.
I do think that karma comes into effect when you do stuff, but I do not think it rebounds three times - that sounds sucpiciously like a case of 'Let's whitewash our religion to make it more socially acceptable' - along with the "An harm it none, do what thou wilt" which I regard as a bastardization of Crowley's Law, which has the added benefit of not making the believer in such a Law a human doormat.
The long poem version of the Rede gives itself numerous history holes, such as the phrase 'Deosil go by the waxing Moon, sing and dance the Witches' Rune'. This is in of itself an error of incredible proportions, because Valiente herself wrote the Wtches' Rune and it has since then been passed off as 'ancient', most notably by Lady Sheba.
A site known as the Obsidian Mirror has a wonderful analysis of the Rede, and I highly reccomend it.

[Dallin]

My take on it is that it's a Wiccan ideology - and one I hold close to my heart. Of course it's not a rule - we ALL know it's impossible to live without causing harm to others and to ourselves.

But that doesn't, and in my mind shouldn't, stop us for at least trying for that ideal - whether we're Wiccan or anything else. It's common sense.

It has two parts: harm none and do thy will. Again, these are ideals - they cannot be followed flawlessly. Harm none is obvious enough. Do thy will is a bit more obscure - it doesn't simply mean, "as long as it doesn't harm anyone do what you want." It refers to following our Higher Will...

And on that note I'm just about out of time :D But you get the idea. Again, this is just my take on it.

[Theres]

it's more of a guideline. ;)
yep.

personal responsibilty (harm none) = personal freedom (do what you will). if you can't accept the former, you don't earn the latter... it's really that simple.

as far as that overly long and (very sophmoric) poem goes, that is NOT the Wiccan Rede.

[Epona44]

Burn it not or cursed ye'll be.

This may once have been taken as a law, just as Fundies seem to take everything literally.

But nine woods are all pretty much trees native to the UK, so, what about the 100's of trees here.

They are all part of the sacred WOOD.

It's a guideline that is written as a poem, because poetry is easy to remember, and one did not wish to write things down back in the burning times.

[Theres]

It's a guideline that is written as a poem, because poetry is easy to remember, and one did not wish to write things down back in the burning times.
easier than eight simple words? :confused:

and i'm not sure what the 'burning times' have to do with Wicca, or the Rede. the fact that they're centuries apart might add to my confusion.

[Epona44]

The rede was written quite recently, and Wicca is a modern variety of paganism. I have a sharp muscle pain in my neck from sitting too long, and I'm not thinking clearly.

What I meant to say was that poetry is a powerful memory aid, and that's why spells and chants are written that way.

Now I'm going to take some Advil and do some neck rolls.

[Theres]

The rede was written quite recently, and Wicca is a modern variety of paganism. I have a sharp muscle pain in my neck from sitting too long, and I'm not thinking clearly.

What I meant to say was that poetry is a powerful memory aid, and that's why spells and chants are written that way.

Now I'm going to take some Advil and do some neck rolls.
i'm sorry.
can i rub some lavender on your temples? :rubhead:

[Lunacie]

yep.

personal responsibilty (harm none) = personal freedom (do what you will). if you can't accept the former, you don't earn the latter... it's really that simple.

as far as that overly long and (very sophmoric) poem goes, that is NOT the Wiccan Rede.

I think when it gets shortened to just two words, "harm none", that's when it gets the most confusing and misleading. IF it harms no one... then do what you have decided should be done. And again, my understanding is that it was written mainly in reference to the practice of the magical arts but has been adopted as a guideline to how a Wiccan should live his or her life.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Elder is not to be burned because doing so can lead to health problems.

[VroomBroom]

I look at the Rede in the same way I have veiwed the Commandments.......nice suggestions veiled in threats if you dont behave correctly.

But that is just MHO, and I'm not wiccan anyway:)

[Phoenix_Blue]

I voted "other" because I don't even think it's a pretty poem. At best, it's a watered-down version of Crowley's "Love is the Law, Love under Will." At worst, it's a statement that makes new Wiccans think they're not allowed to do any harm, ever - a ludicrous assertion, to be sure.

[Theres]

I look at the Rede in the same way I have veiwed the Commandments.......nice suggestions veiled in threats if you dont behave correctly.
"An it harm none, do what thou wilt"
where's the threat?

I voted "other" because I don't even think it's a pretty poem.
Word!

At best, it's a watered-down version of Crowley's "Love is the Law, Love under Will."
well, i think it's a bit more than just that.

At worst, it's a statement that makes new Wiccans think they're not allowed to do any harm, ever - a ludicrous assertion, to be sure.
yep, that is a very unfortunate side effect.

[VroomBroom]

I take this as a threat........

Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.

That if any wiccan was to do any harm to someone, it is going to come back on them three times worse than what they did to that person.

[Theres]

I take this as a threat........

Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.

That if any wiccan was to do any harm to someone, it is going to come back on them three times worse than what they did to that person.
yeah great... but that's not the Wiccan rede.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I take this as a threat........

Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.

That if any wiccan was to do any harm to someone, it is going to come back on them three times worse than what they did to that person.
As Theres says, that's not the Wiccan Rede.

But also, it's not a threat at all, but rather a statement of fact. Actions have consequences, period.

It's like saying that "If you touch a hot stove, you'll get burned" is a threat.

[Phoenix_Blue]

But also, it's not a threat at all, but rather a statement of fact.
Well, it's a statement. :) Whether it's factual is another matter.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Well, it's a statement. :) Whether it's factual is another matter.
OK, well the numbers are arbitrary, but it's a specific statement regarding a general fact. :) Better?

[Lunacie]

Something I heard or read once that made a great deal of sense to me is this: the law of three means that your actions will be returned to you in three ways ~ physically, mentally, and spiritually.

[Ben Gruagach]

Something I heard or read once that made a great deal of sense to me is this: the law of three means that your actions will be returned to you in three ways ~ physically, mentally, and spiritually.

I've heard that, and as with most things it's all a matter of interpretation.

If I put my hand on a hot stove, I get burned (physical consequences.) It gives me pain (mental consequences.) If I see burning my hand as an omen or punishment from the Divine, then it could be interpreted as a spiritual consequence too.

Of course, the same event could be argued in ways to suggest that it is strictly physical and has not mental or spiritual components.

Personally, I look at the Wiccan Rede ("An it harm none, do what you will") and the Threefold Law as just different ways of saying things we decide (action or inaction) have consequences, and we must be willing to take responsibility for the consequences. Throwing the number three in there just makes it sound more mystical since Celtic culture (where Wicca got a lot of its inspiration) in particular had such an emphasis on the number three. And the more recent physical/mental/spiritual explanation of the Threefold Law is just another attempt to explain things in a magickal/spiritual context for those who ask "why?" But in the end it's just someone's attempt to explain things and isn't necessarily scientific fact.

Action=reaction though is a scientific fact.

[elfmage]

I see so many people who say they believe that the Wiccan Rede is a Law that all Wiccans must follow, and they don't really seem to understand what the Rede means. It's impossible for a human being to never cause any harm to themselves, to other living beings, or to the environment. If it were such a law it would be impossible to follow. From what I've learned the Rede was written to illustrate how Wiccans should be responsible in using magic/energy. What do YOU think it means?

(please explain)

A rede is, by definition, a counsel, or in other words advice. It is not a law that must be obeyed, or else you will be cast into the fiery pits for eternity (sound familiar? ;)), it is more advice on how a conscientious individual can best live.

That's my two cents, anyway.

[Lunacie]

A rede is, by definition, a counsel, or in other words advice. It is not a law that must be obeyed, or else you will be cast into the fiery pits for eternity (sound familiar? ;)), it is more advice on how a conscientious individual can best live.

That's my two cents, anyway.

And worth every penny. ;)

To me, this is one of the main differences between Wicca (or Pagan religions in general) and the more mainstream religions ~ that we don't OBEY laws, we use our intelligence to decipher advice and make the most responsible decisions we can.

[Rudas Starblaze]

YEAH! WHAT ELFMAGE AND LUNACIE SAID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:jamsessio

:dancy:

ILLAW,
Rudas

[Nantonos]

I voted "other" because I don't even think it's a pretty poem. At best, it's a watered-down version of Crowley's "Love is the Law, Love under Will."

Isn't it more a watered down version of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".

Which in turn is derived from Rabelais, the storyGargantua (http://www.chez.com/bacfrancais/garg31.html), written in 1534. Chapter 55, entitled "Comment estoient reiglez les Thelemites à leur manière de vivre.". Since the phrase has been widely misquoted, here is the original (in mediaeval French, and English translation)

En leur reigle n'estoit que ceste clause. Faictz ce que vouldras.
Their rule had just one clause: do what you want.
http://big.chez.com/bacfrancais/garg-texte.htm#c55

A short bio here (in English) for anyone interested.
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/rabela.htm

At worst, it's a statement that makes new Wiccans think they're not allowed to do any harm, ever - a ludicrous assertion, to be sure.
And a completely unworkable one. Everything we do causes hard in some way to something. Harm can be minimised, not eliminated.

[wakywitch]

I consider the Rede to be no more than a guide line.

[Lunacie]

I was prompted to post this poll because I had seen so many posts where folks seem to think the Wiccan Rede is something that must be obeyed, that it governs what Wiccans are, and what Wiccans do and should not do. Yet most people who answered the poll say that they believe it's a moral code.

Does the Wiccan Rede say what we should and shouldn't do?
Or does it simply say, "do what you think is right".

[Ben Trismegistus]

I was prompted to post this poll because I had seen so many posts where folks seem to think the Wiccan Rede is something that must be obeyed, that it governs what Wiccans are, and what Wiccans do and should not do. Yet most people who answered the poll say that they believe it's a moral code.
It's a cookbook!

Does the Wiccan Rede say what we should and shouldn't do?
No. It's just a pithy phrase, not a Commandment From On High. The modern translation, in my opinion, is "try not to hurt people too much, if you can help it."

[Phoenix_Blue]

*Laughs* That's similar to my interpretation: be aware of the consequences of your actions, and consciously choose to help as many as possible while harming as few as possible.

[Lunacie]

One of the things that drew me very strongly to the Wiccan path all those years ago was the concept of Balance. Balance meant I didn't have to try to live up to some perfect measurement that isn't possible (or natural) for human beings. I'm just now making the connection between Balance and the Rede, and it sure makes sense to me. More sense than insisting that we are able to actually live a normal life without causing some harm at some time, which smacks of trying to live up to that standard of perfection that doesn't seem at all normal or natural to me.

That said, I don't go around looking for things to do that will harm someone OR looking for things that will help someone. But I am aware of when I CAN do either of those things and don't feel guilty for the ones that may harm because I figure the balance will be okay at the end of the day, or the month, or the year, or my life.

[Mumsy]

If you want to get technical, look it up! Merriam Webster defines rede as:

Function: noun
1 chiefly dialect : COUNSEL, ADVICE
2 archaic : ACCOUNT, STORY
or
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English -- more at READ
1 dialect : to give counsel to : ADVISE
2 dialect : INTERPRET, EXPLAIN

This "guideline" is based on the premise that you should strive to be the best person you can and not intentionally cause any one or any thing harm. But, truth be told, I will not sit idly by and allow someone to cause harm or be harmed.

[mattolsen]

It would be difficult to think of the rede as a law in the strictest sense. Essentially the rede says you can do what you want if you don't hurt anyone. If you continue to analyze that you will see that almost anything you do in life will hurt someone. This may not be obvious at first but lets take a simple example...

Eating Vegetarian:
Sure the animals are no longer slaughtered because of you, and its better for the enviroment, and its better for your health... but
Over time as demand goes down it becomes harder for people who make their living at slaughter houses.

You will generally find that anything you do no matter how benevolent has some negative consequence (even if you can't see it), that will occur. To me thats kind of the point. You should contimplate all of your actions because everything you do in life will impact others. So because of this you should be conscious of this fact and deliberate on the appropriate action. In your deliberations also remember the rule of 3, between these two concepts you should find yourself making more thoughtful decisions.

Blessed Be

[sunset_winds]

I think its a number of things... I don't think it must be followed word for word, though...

[Lunacie]

Another thought to consider: if someone in your neighborhood is breaking and entering to steal things, or raping someone, which is the most harmful/helpful ~ doing nothing because it could harm the criminal ~ or casting a binding spell to prevent them from harming others and possibly yourself or your family? I know there are other options, but this is just to make people aware that sometimes anything you do will cause harm and you must make a choice of who will be harmed the most by your action, or inaction.

[Mumsy]

Binding spell my Medieval ass! If someone is causing harm to another, I'm gonna do a whole lot more than put a binding spell on them! Unless you count duct tape . . .

[Lunacie]

Like I said...
[QUOTE=Lunacie]I know there are other options... [QUOTE]

:uzi:
:)

[OMmomma]

IMO a crude attempt to translate an esoteric truth, into a mundane law. What we get in the end is a mandate to 'behave'(ala Austin Powers)
Useful though... For those who need a reason...

[DamienDeville]

I voted moral code,its nice to live by if thats your bowl of soup.Some would say TO ME but your a Satanist,why would you be concerned about morality...hm well I am Human,And I do believe that if you want respect you first have to show respect.So its okay,not for me but okay.If some one attacks me or my family I will use the old codes of an eye for an eye, and what comes around goes around whether that is through the use of magick or personally.

[Sage Rainsong]

I think that it is advice since rede means advice. It means that we should watch our actions. Also as far as the 3 fold law I take it to mean that everything that you do affects you in mind body and spirit.

[Lunacie]

I had forgotten the way one of my online friends explains the Rede:

An it harm none, do as ye will.
An it harm some, do as ye must.

[Vincent Verthaine]

First off,the wiccan rede was ripped off from Crowley's Law of Thelema(you know the one:
Do as thou wilt shall be the Whole of the Law
Love is the Law.Love under Will.
Every Man and woman is a Star)
by Gardner,and changed because he didn't like the ethical conontations of it.
Second off,the wiccan rede and the 3 fold law(There been many horrible dictators who died peacably of old age.And there are people who do get away with murder)only applies to those who accept it.Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Discordians aren't bound by Laws or Rules unless we make our own or choose to follow.
Wiccans are neo-pagans,not the other way around.

[Lorelei of the Mists]

I whole heartedly agree, Mab. _handclapp

IMO--a guideline...a good idea....much like the Golden Rule. And, frankly, some ppl need a bit of fear of what they put out coming back three-fold to keep them in line.

If this world would adopt this way of thinking it would be a wonderous world indeed!

L~

[LadyCelt]

I'd think an oath and a moral code. Its an oath you make to choose this path to follow these ethics.

[Theres]

First off,the wiccan rede was ripped off from Crowley's Law of Thelema...

which was in turn "ripped off" from Rabelais.

[Theres]

And, frankly, some ppl need a bit of fear of what they put out coming back three-fold to keep them in line.

i'd like to think that intelligent, thinking people do not. but i'm not quite sure what the 3-fold law has to do with the rede. the latter is, by definition, advice. the former is an artificial construct designed to generate exactly the controlling type of fear as stated above.

i'm not Wiccan, but i find great wisdom in the Wiccan Rede. i have absolutely no use for the 3-fold law.... karma rules my universe.

[Vincent Verthaine]

which was in turn "ripped off" from Rabelais.Yes,quite true.Sorry about not mentioning thatSlipped My Mind.Oh well,no ones perfect.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I don't know that "ripped off" necessarily conveys the right connotations, but putting that aside, I agree with Athena-Nadine (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1282386&postcount=4), that it doesn't mean "don't harm", because that's impossible, it's a reminder that all actions have consequences and Wiccans should consider them.

It's not a question of who this applies to, because it's not really a rule or law as such. It's advice, take it or leave as you wish. As far as Wiccans go, though, I think the rede isn't a moral or ethical guideline, it's simply a reminder to HAVE some kind of ethics.

Now,the "law of threefold return". I just have never been able to wrap my mind around it. Everyone always just "explains" it by saying "that's the way it is"... No one explains the mechanics of HOW it would be amplified and reflected back, or even WHY it is so. Equal return seems a lot more feasible. I'm more of the mind of a threefold EFFECT, but I've already explained that in detail elsewhere.

Yea for thread necromancy!

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[morningstar2651]

"'Do what you like so long as you harm no one.' But they [Wicans] believe a certain law to be important, 'You must not use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm'." -- Gerald Gardner, The Meaning of Witchcraft (http://www.mysticwicks.com/shop/shop.php?c=Books&n=1000&i=1578633095&x=The_Meaning_of_Witchcraft)

"Do what you like so long as you harm no one" is a Moral Code

"You must not use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm" is a Law.

[J Santos]

Dawa,

I always viewed the "law of threefold return" as a both a promise and a warning more than a law. Contrary to the laws of magnetism (and this may be a controversial issue with the pagans in this community, if so I apologize for possibly opening up an old wound), the laws of energy seem to work, at least in my experience, in this way: Good energy attracts good energy, Bad energy attracts bad energy. Exhuming good energy would, therefore, seem to attract good energy in return and vice versa for bad energy. While I agree that in normal circumstances, this might be a 1 for 1 exchange, remember that the energy you have a part in is only a small of the energies in the world.

If we take for granted the existence of 5 "primitive" elements as Wicca teaches us:

Water
Fire
Air
Earth

Which are combined to form all the creative forces in the universe. I believe the fifth, very special, element, "Spirit"/Akasha represents that which has been created. Now, if you take for granted the existence of both masculine and feminine forces and assign the elements to them in traditional ways you have two sides of the creative forces: the God elements and the Goddess elements. However, your energies are directed towards something/someone, giving you the Spirit elements of that thing/person. Sending negative energy, therefore, attracts negative energies from the Spirit of the thing/person in a seeming 1-1 ratio as required. HOWEVER! There seems to be a reaction within the creative elements, giving you the other two parts of energy.

This, of course, is my belief and should be taken as such.

[Elderbush]

The three fold law is part of a poem and, as such, poetic terms are to be expected.

In my tradition we call the concept the Law of Return. You get back what you put out there, and that has been my experience in life.

[Astara Seague]

I think most consider it a moral code or a guidline, but I tend to consider it a law at least to me.

[Morgandria]

It's not something I follow.

[J Santos]

The three fold law is part of a poem and, as such, poetic terms are to be expected.

In my tradition we call the concept the Law of Return. You get back what you put out there, and that has been my experience in life.


The three fold law is EXPRESSED in a poem, its not the poem itself. The idea that the number three has a sacred or divine significance is not a new one, indeed its probably one of the oldest numerological devices in history. This happens to be another case of that. I wouldn't condense the fact that the poem says its returned threefold into mere poetic license.

[Lunacie]

The three fold law is EXPRESSED in a poem, its not the poem itself. The idea that the number three has a sacred or divine significance is not a new one, indeed its probably one of the oldest numerological devices in history. This happens to be another case of that. I wouldn't condense the fact that the poem says its returned threefold into mere poetic license.

I really don't see the difference between what Elderbush posted and what you're posting here. :huh:

[J Santos]

Lunacie,

Elderbrush seemed to be saying the fact that the "Threefold Law" states it as returning specifically three-fold was a work of poeticism. I was defending the selection of the magnitude of 3 for the amplification of return :)

[Xirian]

I voted a guideline, but I want to state that I don't feel it's a guideline specifically just for using magic, but I think these are more like guidelines for new wiccans than actual rules. If you look up the word "rede" in the dictionary, it states that it is: as a noun Advice or counsel.; as a verb 1. To give advice to; counsel. 2. To interpret; explain.

It does not, from what others have told me and the bits that I have read about Wicca, sound as if these are actual rules per se, more like suggestions that should be followed.

I believe in Karma. I feel that I have seen it affect my life and I believe that the affects are fairly immediate (meaning in this lifetime). I don't necessarily believe in the "Three Fold Law" though. I'm not Wiccan, so that's probably why. I find it hard to swallow that karma comes back to you magnified 3 times. It sounds like something someone made up to force people not to do negative spells, or rituals with negative intent, or maybe even more simply, to scare others. I don't know.

I think all of these things are used to try to guide new Wiccans, just like other religions have strong suggestions and rules to make their group cohesive and to separate them from other religions. Wiccans have copied some traditions and religious beliefs, intermingled with their own thoughts, and made their own religion. This is something that many religions do. Wicca is a religion, it is not a tradition, as far as I'm concerned. Tradition means, "The passing down of elements of a culture from generation to generation, especially by oral communication." Religion means, "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."

If Wiccans didn't make up their own rules and guidelines, and simply copied all of their ideas directly from other religions and traditions, they wouldn't be their own religion. Which I know some people suspect that that's exactly what they did. However, this particular rede, to date, is mostly recognized as the Wiccan Rede and for good reason. Even if they took the information from other sources and tweeked them a bit doesnt matter, it still makes it their own.

The "Three Fold Law" and the Wiccan Rede are reasonably there to guide and instruct and separate Wicca from any other religion. Even though I may think they are far fetched and have my own issues with them, I can understand the point of them.

[Dawa Lhamo]

Lunacie,

Elderbrush seemed to be saying the fact that the "Threefold Law" states it as returning specifically three-fold was a work of poeticism. I was defending the selection of the magnitude of 3 for the amplification of return :)Well, I can understand why it would amplify 3x IF it were to amplify.... because three is a common number for such things, but how do you argue that it amplifies in the first place?

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Lunacie]

I'm pretty sure I stated somewhere in this thread that I don't believe the 3-fold law means you get back 3 times as much good or crap or whatever. I think it refers to the physical, mental and spiritual returns. It was supposed to be a way of getting people to see that their actions cause an effect in more ways than just one.

[farm girl]

I believe it is a moral code, so I voted for that.

[morningstar2651]

Well, I can understand why it would amplify 3x IF it were to amplify.... because three is a common number for such things, but how do you argue that it amplifies in the first place?

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo
I can field this question.

I believe in the law of return, however, when I'm in a sacred space, such as a circle, temple, mosque, church, synagogue, etc. -- any harmful action performed in such a place is particularly offensive to the gods, and this is where I believe the threefold part comes into play.

[Elderbush]

The poem doesn't say that in a sacred place it is 3x and in a regular space it isn't.

I think, along with Lunacie, that what comes back to you isn't necessarily exactly what you sent out, that it can come back in different ways. However, I do not like to limit the gods or the universe to 3x when it is very doubtful they pay attention to the poem.

Edited to add, what do you think the gods think about us making up rules for them? Seriously.

[HMoonwolf]

What the 3 fold means is that every action, or lack of action brings forth a result of some sort. It is not very likely that the result will return 3 times or 7 times or and multiple It will however will have an effect even if the action is forgotten by that person and even if nobody ever knows about the action, somewhere somehow, it will have an effect, Thus I believe it to be good advice. I also believe in the karma effect. I'm sure most of us has heard that history repeats itself. Personally I have no desire to repeat any mistakes I've ever made. It just makes sense to follow the 3 fold law. Their is nothing wrong with being responsible for your actions. People are not perfect. We all make mistakes. I follow the 3 fold law because it just might help me to improve myself.

<<<Expect the Unexpected>>>
HMoonwolf

[Theres]

what do you think the gods think about us making up rules for them? Seriously.

i think it is hubris, and i KNOW what my gods think of that!

[J Santos]

Even the divine fall into patterns...

But I guess that's just a mathematician talking

[J Santos]

As an ammended note... There are rules EVERY where in nature.. think hard and you will find some. Although instances of those rules may be bent or broken from time to time, it doesn't mean that the rules do not, in fact, exist :)

[sidhe]

The Rede is how people view it.

Technically, it's not among the Laws of wicca (at least not in the tradition I'm familiar with), so I view it as a polite suggestion...which I choose not to take.

However, some firm traditionalists treat the Rede as the be-all-end-all, and give it more of a lawlike standing.

*shrugs* So it goes.

[J Santos]

Aye, its the same type of question that plagues all belief systems... arguments/disagreements always ensue questions of faith. But hey, at least we aren't burning anyone at the stake for not thinking exactly the same way as us ;)

[Elderbush]

Ah, J Santos, since you are a mathematician with a love of numbers I can understand and appreciate why you like the "three" part.

Myself, I have a math block.:)

[Lunacie]

Its true that the followers of all belief systems have many different ways of looking at their own particular dogmas. And that's an interesting notion of one reason we look at things differently, I'm also "math challenged". In the same way that kids who have trouble reading suddenly find themselves reading much better when they find a type of book or a series that really grabs their attention for me math was suddenly more interesting when I began bowling and learned to keep score. The symbols / and X took on a whole new meaning as -a total of 10- and -10 plus the next number-. So perhaps each of us is a different place of understanding depending on what has grabbed our attention and what we use to understand and relate to these religious concepts in our own minds.

[J Santos]

Just keep in mind that Arithmetic (the manipulation of numbers using predefined and static operations) is only a small part of mathematics. The best definition I've seen to date is that mathematics is the "science of patterns." I was drawn to wicca and neo-paganism because some aspects of their beliefs saw a larger pattern to the universe (easiest and most obvious of these involve the various forms of divination used in pagan magick) and I consider my spirituality based largely on this understanding of patterns.

Also, my statements were not meant to attack any others view on these patterns, merely to defend the notion of a long standing historical fact that there is, in fact, a larger pattern to the way numbers work and are involved in our lives.

Also, for the MANY of you out there: I prefer the term: Arithmophobia.

:)

[morningstar2651]

Just keep in mind that Arithmetic (the manipulation of numbers using predefined and static operations) is only a small part of mathematics. The best definition I've seen to date is that mathematics is the "science of patterns." I was drawn to wicca and neo-paganism because some aspects of their beliefs saw a larger pattern to the universe (easiest and most obvious of these involve the various forms of divination used in pagan magick) and I consider my spirituality based largely on this understanding of patterns.

Also, my statements were not meant to attack any others view on these patterns, merely to defend the notion of a long standing historical fact that there is, in fact, a larger pattern to the way numbers work and are involved in our lives.

Also, for the MANY of you out there: I prefer the term: Arithmophobia.

:)
You might be interested in Calvin C. Clawson's books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Calvin%20C.%20Clawson&rank=-relevance%2C%2Bavailability%2C-daterank/002-4750539-4853627). I've read some of Mathematical Mysteries: The Beauty and Magic of Numbers.

Also, this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471528986/qid=1134962173/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/002-4750539-4853627?s=books&v=glance&n=283155) might interest mathophobes.

[Lunacie]

But I don't have arithmophobea and it doesn't sound like Elderbrush does either. I might have Algebraphobia though. ;)

[omar]

After reading " Your Life", Understanding the Universal Laws.By Bruce McArthur. The Wiccan Rede "IS" a Universal Law of the Creator God. That all thing in the Universe operate on these laws.

[Ben Gruagach]

After reading " Your Life", Understanding the Universal Laws. The Wiccan Rede "IS" a Universal Law of the Creator God. That all thing in the Universe operate on these laws.

The Wiccan Rede is "An it harm none, do what you will." I'm not sure how this is a Universal Law of the Creator God.

If you are referring to the fact that actions have consequences (which many Wiccans call the Threefold Law) then I do think that it's just a statement of how the physical realm operates, and I expect how the nonphysical realms operate too. Maybe not in a quantifiable way like things always return threefold, but actions do always have consequences.

[Vincent Verthaine]

A Universal Law must apply to every circumstance.
It must apply to everything,at everytime,and in every place.
In a vacuum, light always travels at a speed of 299,792,458 meters per second, no matter how its speed is measured.
That is a universal law.
Chaos is the underlying force of the universe,all things manifest from it,all things are effected by it,all things must return to it.
That is a Universal Law.
Everything must Change eventually.
That is a Universal Law.

We Of the C.O.E have a saying,"Eris(Chaos) Nullifies Anything Not Universal."

What exactly happens if you break the wiccan rede?
Do the gods fry you with a lightning bolt?
Do you go blind and grow hair on your palms?
Does it go into some Celestrial Ledger,a debt to be paid when you die?
Is the wiccan rede applicable to a cat,as it stalks a mouse or a bird.
I feed my cat regularly,so I know she wasn't hungry when she shows off her hunting accomplishments to "daddy".

Same thing with the 3-fold law.
If I do something bad,what exactly happens.
Do I get punished for it 3 times over.
If I do something good,is anyone here willing to guarantee me that I will get 3times my initial investment or my money back?

[BeigeAllen]

Though I am not a Wiccan, and am not bound by the Rede; if I were, this is the answer I would have given.

With These Eight Words The Wiccan Rede Fulfill: "An It Harm None, Do What Ye Will." Copyright 08/17/92 by Servants Of The Elder Gods, Rocky Mountain Coven and James C. Taylor

OVERVIEW:
The purpose of this paper is to look at the Wiccan Rede, at the types of conduct it excludes, and at the type of conduct it requires. We will begin with a detailed examination of the wording of the Rede itself, which presents as "pseudo-archaic" but actually makes excellent use of the specific meanings of several archaic words, which have no real equivalents in contemporary English. We will then take a look at the two sections of the Rede, and see why they are presented in their proper order as written. Finally, we will examine various uses of magick and see how--and if--they adequately measure up to the standard of the Rede.

THE VOCABULARY OF THE WICCAN REDE:
As mentioned above, the Rede appears to be presented in a pseudo-archaic or "phony ancient" form of English. Is this simply harmless foolishness, or is there some excellent reason for the vocabulary selected? Let's take a look at the Rede, word by word.

AN: This word is commonly mistranslated as "IF", which is a significant error. The word "AN" is more accurately translated "JUST SO LONG AS".
IT: This pronoun refers to whatever it is that you are thinking of doing.
HARM: This refers to anything which either you or any other person involved or affected by "it" would regard as loss, damage, pain, discomfort, injustice, invasiveness, or prevention, relative to the situation existing before "it" was done. Anything, which goes against another person's free will, even if it intends them good, would constitute serious harm.
NONE: This ought to be self-explanatory. "None" is an all-exclusive word. If you harm anyone or anything, including yourself, including a small rock in Trenton, New Jersey, you have harmed "some", not "none".
DO: To perform whatever working is contemplated by "IT", above.
WHAT: The meaning here is "Whatever", and refers forward.
YE: The archaic PLURAL form of "you". The current word "you" denotes both the singular and the plural; the archaic word "YE" is always plural. We shall see, later on, that this is no accident.
WILL: To will something is to exercise your intellectual decision- making power to determine the course of action, which you feel to be the best. "Will" has little or nothing to do with "wish" or "want" or "desire". It is not an emotional inclination or feeling. It is the employment of reason to make a decision based upon your best judgment.


THE TWO SECTIONS OF THE WICCAN REDE

SECTION ONE: "AN IT HARM NONE". Why does the Wiccan Rede not say, "Do what ye will, an it harm none"? There is a reason why the "An it harm none" comes first in the Rede, and that reason is that "An it harm none" is in- tended to come first in your own thinking, as a Wiccan initiate and practitioner. If you or any Wiccan begins with "Do what ye will", I assure you that you, like the Fundamentalists before you, will find a way to excuse and even to justify anything you take it into your head to do! Knowing this about human nature, the Lady inspired the Rede to be written as it is, with the "An it harm none" to come first. The Wiccan Rede's "An it harm none" has parallels in many disciplines. Perhaps the most significant parallel is found in the Hippocratic Oath taken by every physician before s/he is certified to practice. The first part of the Hippocratic Oath binds the physician "First, to do no harm." It is sobering to realize that magical ethics, as set forth in the Wiccan Rede, are or should be so similar to medical ethics, an issue with such a powerful effect on so many lives. When we read of a physician who has violated his medical ethics, we read this with outrage toward him and with empathy toward those patients who suffered inadequate care because the physician violated his ethics. It is more sobering to realize that future generations will regard violations of magickal ethics with the same degree of outrage, and rightly so.
SECTION TWO: "DO WHAT YE WILL." Even without the first part of the Rede, "Do what ye will" is most certainly not a blanket permission to do whatever you desire to do. As one Wiccan High Priestess has observed, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Seems like I've heard that before, but it's certainly true when you're talking about using real magick to accomplish real goals in the real world. 1490 When we realize the kinds and orders of results, both expected and unexpected, both knowable and unknowable, which eventuate from almost every human action, it would seem the better part of both valor and wisdom to never do anything at all, especially not anything which is done with spiritual power guided by no more than human wisdom! Unfortunately, to do nothing is also a choice, and the results of inaction are often far worse than the results of even ill considered action. This is why the second half of the Rede demands that we make a decision and act upon it, as well as conforming that decision to the requirement that it harm none.

THE STANDARD OF THE REDE: Please note that the Wiccan Rede contains no loopholes whatsoever. The Rede does not say, "An it harm none to the best of your knowledge." The Rede also does not say "An it harm none to the best of your ability to discern whether it will harm someone." The Wiccan Rede does not say these things, or anything similar to them. It simply says "An it harm NONE, do what ye will." This means that YOU, once you have committed to live by the Wiccan Rede, are committed to be solely and totally responsible for any harm resulting from ANY ACTION YOU TAKE, MAGICKAL OR NOT. Paul Seymour's forthcoming book begins with some strong cautionary notes concerning the use of magick. One of the examples he gives is particularly tragic, and concerns a young man who worked a simple and apparently harmless "money spell". The spell worked, and the young man got his money--he inherited it, when his parents were both killed in an accident shortly after he worked the spell. Paul does not say in his book if this young man was a Wiccan initiate. If he was, then in addition to his sorrow and loss, he has had to live with the fact that, by the standard of the Rede, he is ultimately responsible for the death of his parents. When you commit to live according to the Wiccan Rede, you commit to conform your entire life, not just the magickal, mystical and religious aspects of it, to the standard set by the Rede. Never again will you be able to act impulsively or without considering the results of what you do.
Never again will you be able to act or even speak in thoughtless irritation or anger. Instead, you will come to consider the implications of every word you speak, and of every routine action you do. For it is not just by magick that we can harm others; or ourselves everything we do, and everything we say, has the potential to help or harm others, and to help or harm ourselves. It is also important to note that the Rede sets up a standard, which prevents us from harming ourselves as well as others. Other religions, including Christianity, regard it as virtuous to suffer harm for the sake of another, even to die so that another person might live. The Wiccan Rede does not permit this. You are to harm none, and this means that you are not to harm yourself, even for the sake of doing good for someone else. To some, this may seem like a selfish standard. But think about it. Would you wish to benefit by someone else's injury or death? Of course not! If you did derive some benefit, such as an inheritance, from the death of another person, would you feel good about this? Well, some people might, but probably you would not. Therefore, in a very real sense, you yourself are harmed by a benefit you derive from the injury or death of another. True, the harm is emotional, but it is entirely real. Wicca recognizes that human beings are social creatures. What does harm to one, does harm to all in varying degrees. Therefore, it is imperative that each person strives to harm no one, himself or herself included. Finally, it is significant to note that word "ye" in the statement, "Do what YE will." This is the ancient plural form of "you", and it means that your individual will is assumed to be in accord with some other will, instead of acting entirely on its own. What is this other will, which, together with yours, comprises the "ye" in the Rede? Well, if you are working in a coven, it could well be the combined will of the members of the coven. But this would not apply to those who are working on their own, and it is not the highest or best meaning, even for those working in coven. How does one act, so as to be certain to harm none? Not by refusing to act, since inaction is itself a decision, and often causes far more harm than even rash action. Not by delaying action until the time for it is past, because that is the same as inaction, and not by relying solely upon your own human wisdom, either. The best way to act, so as to be certain to harm none, is to call upon the Goddess and/or the God, and to hand to Them the power you have raised, together with the situation you have raised the power to deal with, and say, "You are holy, good, and wise, and know how to use this power to help and not harm. Do Your will in this situation. That is my will, that Your will be done." And thus the Rede is fulfilled: For the "ye" who will are yourself and Themselves, who are good, and love humanity, and who always act for the highest good of all.

[BeigeAllen]

I also think this is one that should be talked about more :graduate:

Craft Code of Honor
As presented to the Wiccan Community at Witchstock Inter-Tradition meeting in 1998. The Inter-Tradition guidelines were written and presented by Lady Rhiannon of Serpentstone, Lady Cassandra of the Temple of Hecate Triskele, Lady Grey Cat of Northwind, Lady Silver Ravenwolf of the Black Forest and Grandfather Michael Ragan. This is an extraction from a complete document entitled Inter-Tradition Guidelines. This document contains Minimums for Initiation, Requirements for Eldership, The Law (including universal and coven) and the Code of Honor.

1. Chivalry must be followed by all (Honesty, bravery, generosity and kindness).
2. One's oath is one's sacred pledge. Pledge sparingly, for it must be of iron.
3. Speak no ill of another for all truth may not be known.
4. Pass not hearsay.
5. Be honest with all - and demand the same.
6. The fury of a moment plays folly with truth. Keeping one's head is a virtue.
7. Wisdom brings power. Apply discretion in its use.
8. Pledge friendship to those who warrant. To strengthen your brother or sister brings strength to you. Pledging friendship to the dishonorable brings dishonor to you.
9. Reveal not the secrets of others, lest your own secrets be lost.
10. Have pride in self. Seek perfection in body and mind, for you cannot honor another unless you honor self.
11. In all things, moderation.
12. Revere the God(s) and Goddess(es) of your tradition.
13. Respect the religion of others.
14. Accept the Laws of return (Karma).
15. Accept personal responsibility.
16. Respect the Laws of the Gods, humankind and nature.
17. Be loyal to your Coven, your High Priest and High Priestess, the Elders and your Craft brothers and Sisters.
18. Revere the natural world.
19. Respect the inner self.
20. Honor your succession of teachers.

[Lunacie]

Wow, BeigeAllen, thanks for sharing that. I was difficult to read as it wasn't broken into paragraphs, but I could tell it was very well thought out and seems to pretty much say what I believe the Rede is all about.

[DebLipp]

After reading " Your Life", Understanding the Universal Laws.By Bruce McArthur. The Wiccan Rede "IS" a Universal Law of the Creator God. That all thing in the Universe operate on these laws.
I fail to see what a "Law of the Creator God" has to do with Wicca. Creator God? In Wicca? Not so much.

[DebLipp]

I also think this is one that should be talked about more :graduate:

Craft Code of Honor
As presented to the Wiccan Community at Witchstock Inter-Tradition meeting in 1998. The Inter-Tradition guidelines were written and presented by Lady Rhiannon of Serpentstone, Lady Cassandra of the Temple of Hecate Triskele, Lady Grey Cat of Northwind, Lady Silver Ravenwolf of the Black Forest and Grandfather Michael Ragan. This is an extraction from a complete document entitled Inter-Tradition Guidelines. This document contains Minimums for Initiation, Requirements for Eldership, The Law (including universal and coven) and the Code of Honor. <snip>


These are very nice, but are not "Craft Laws" or a "Craft Code." They are a code adopted by a specific group of traditions comprising maybe a few hundred people. They don't apply to me or to many thousands of others. I am sure it is lovely that they are available, so other groups could adopt them if they liked. But this meeting doesn't comprise any sort of Wiccan authority, so it's really just one more document.

[azzeenasman]

Well,what do I know.

If this is a law,who enforces it?

Who commanded it to be followed?

Who set it in motion?

What happens if you dont abide by it?

And who will judge you?

A law must be enforced by someone ,or by some authority,to have teeth.

[Ben Gruagach]

Well,what do I know.

If this is a law,who enforces it?

Who commanded it to be followed?

Who set it in motion?

What happens if you dont abide by it?

And who will judge you?

A law must be enforced by someone ,or by some authority,to have teeth.

That's the thing about Wicca. We don't have a central authority -- no Pope, not even a single Holy Scripture that all Wiccans must follow. And like Deb pointed out every group can make up their own sets of rules but there isn't any way these rules can be forced on any of the many other equally Wiccan groups that also exist.

Some people see this lack of central authority as a major problem, but personally I think it's one of Wicca's greatest strengths. If I had wanted to join a group that is based on authority structures there are plenty of other religions I could have chosen to join.

[Vincent Verthaine]

That's the thing about Wicca. We don't have a central authority -- no Pope, not even a single Holy Scripture that all Wiccans must follow. And like Deb pointed out every group can make up their own sets of rules but there isn't any way these rules can be forced on any of the many other equally Wiccan groups that also exist.

Some people see this lack of central authority as a major problem, but personally I think it's one of Wicca's greatest strengths. If I had wanted to join a group that is based on authority structures there are plenty of other religions I could have chosen to join.
Absolutely couldn't agree with you and azzeenasman more.

We discordians have a saying;

"We discordians must stick apart".

It prevents any of us from gaining from gaining to big of a following and gaining to much power within the faith.

It keeps the Greyfaces from truly knowing all the O:MF's
we have going on.(Even we don't know who's doing what when.)

Plus it keeps us on out toes,since all of us are so unpredictable.
You guys should see us debate amongst ourselves.The points,counter points,facts and the one-liners go flying at breakneck speed.
Of course staying on topic is a near impossibility.

[Platinum Dove]

I say its a guide, take it as you want, interpret it as you wish, use it as you will. No one will know but you and the Gods.

[medit8ive_spirit]

As defined in the "NEW WORLD DICTIONARY of AMERICAN ENGLISH"---rede-1)counsel; advice 2)a plan 3) an interpretation.

It is what it is to each of us; our own interpretation. I have seen arguments and the disrespect some have given to each other in this thread concerning it. This is suppose to be a place of many paths.

[Elderbush]

It is a place where many people discuss things of importance and no importance at all. Most of the people here are on different paths, many of which aren't Wiccan or only nominally so, and they will see things differently and sometimes argue about the interpretations. I do not see that as a problem.

I also think that groups and individuals have the right to decide what they define as Wicca. Others do not have to accept their definitions. That is their right, too.

[Lunacie]

Hmmm, well I didn't have time to read back through all the posts in this thread earlier - had to go to work - but I just now finished reading them all and I simply don't see where anyone was disrespectful. We didn't all agree about everything, but we shared our thoughts and opinions without name-calling or rudeness. Believe me, if I thought someone was rude and disprespectful I'd be the first one to click that 'report' button.

I think this has been an excellent discussion, in both incarnations. ;)

[Salanthos]

in my opinion, it is a guide that says if it doesn't do harm, its ok, if it does, decide for yourself (it says if it harms none, do what you want, not never cause harm)

personally, I follow a variation: an it harm none, do as thou wilt, an it harm some, do as thou must. (apologies to whoever said it, I don't remember)
it seems more realistic to me.

[Little Billy]

Absolutely couldn't agree with you and azzeenasman more.

We discordians have a saying;

"We discordians must stick apart".

It prevents any of us from gaining from gaining to big of a following and gaining to much power within the faith.



Hell, yeah. Just look what they did to ME, at about Sermon #27.

[MGD]

Absolutely couldn't agree with you and azzeenasman more.

We discordians have a saying;

"We discordians must stick apart".

It prevents any of us from gaining from gaining to big of a following and gaining to much power within the faith.

Well, there was that one time Reverend Wenis got an army of Discordians together and took over a small city.

*shudders*

I'll never forget that horrible night.

[Little Billy]

Well, there was that one time Reverend Wenis got an army of Discordians together and took over a small city.

*shudders*

I'll never forget that horrible night.

They wound up pillaging themselves, didn't they?

If they had Captain Da, that would never have happened.

[Vincent Verthaine]

Well, there was that one time Reverend Wenis got an army of Discordians together and took over a small city.

*shudders*

I'll never forget that horrible night.
I never said that discordians can't work together.
I read the reports on on Rev. Wenis' Army.
The supply of tequilla and pop-tarts ran out too early.

[Little Billy]

I never said that discordians can't work together.
I read the reports on on Rev. Wenis' Army.
The supply of tequilla and pop-tarts ran out too early.