Traditional Wicca?

[Pandoras]

I was just wondering if anyone here practices any Traditional Wicca such as Gardnerian or Alexandrian? Did you go through the initiatory process with a coven? This may include a year and a day study, initiations, ceremonial magic, degrees, working with or as High Priest/High Priestess, and so forth. And if so, how were your experiences? This is not something I've ever been through and I'm curious.

[Jenett]

I'm an initiate in what's probably best described as an ecelectic tradition - we're structured, do the three degree training thing, are initiatory, etc. Just not Alexandrian or Gardnerian.

I've found it to be incredibly worthwhile on all sorts of levels. I tend to do better with structure to work with, so working through a structured lesson/training program (with some room for individual stuff/interests) really helped me feel like I've got a very solid base now.

One thing I particularly enjoyed was getting to see close up how other people do or approach things. Even though we all use the same basic concepts/symbols/approaches in group work, everyone's got their own style, and I learned a lot from watching that.

On the other hand, it's also a pretty substantial time and other-stuff commitment - not just rituals, but classes, homework, practice at home, reading, etc. I get a lot out of it, so I don't mind the work, but not everyone's at a stage in life where that's feasible for them (and in fact, finishing my Master's degree has been on hold, partly due to local job market stuff, and partly due the fact I knew perfectly well I couldn't work full time, do coven stuff, *and* go to school part time and do well at any of them.)

[Ben Trismegistus]

Everything Jennett said is true. I'm also an initiate in an eclectic (Gardnerian-based) Tradition. It's been an amazingly full experience for me. I've learned more than I could ever have learned as a solitary (this is not a remark about the potential of solitaries, but rather about the fact that I wouldn't have had the drive on my own), and I've formed close relationships with my spiritual mentors and my covenmates.

I wouldn't change a thing.

[Jenett]

I'd add one other thing:

It's given me specific reasons to learn stuff I would not necessarily have looked at otherwise, either because it's part of my group's training, or because it's of interest to someone else in the group.

For example, I would never really have looked at chakra work, or some kinds of healing work, or astrology in depth (at least not yet). I still don't do in-depth work in those areas, but I know enough about them now to read intelligently when the subject comes up in other things I'm working on, and know some specific exercises and techniques that have turned out to be very helpful to me.

Sometimes you don't know that something will be useful until someone brings it up, y'know? And in group context, there was always someone I could ask about it, since they wouldn't bring it up otherwise (at least not in that kind of sense...)

[Pandoras]

I'm a solitary practitioner and I think there's a lot to be gained by working with a coven for all those reasons you have both stated.

It's given me specific reasons to learn stuff I would not necessarily have looked at otherwise, either because it's part of my group's training, or because it's of interest to someone else in the group.

This is really good point I hadn't thought about. As a solitary, it's soooo easy to say, naw I don't care about that, why learn about it. I know I've done it. I think it's important to have a, um, "well rounded education" for lack of a better phrase.

Also, Ben mentions forming close relationships with spiritual mentors and covenmates and I think this is so important. Paganism can be very lonely for some and not only is it nice to be a part of community, but also one that has leadership.

Aside from that, what do you all think about the structure of some covens? I mean, the more hierarchical aspects - the first degree, second degree, etc.? Do you also find yourselves becoming somewhat of a minority in Paganism? Do think that Paganism (or Wicca) is moving away from structure?

[Ben Gruagach]

I'm a solitary practitioner and I think there's a lot to be gained by working with a coven for all those reasons you have both stated.

This is really good point I hadn't thought about. As a solitary, it's soooo easy to say, naw I don't care about that, why learn about it. I know I've done it. I think it's important to have a, um, "well rounded education" for lack of a better phrase.

Also, Ben mentions forming close relationships with spiritual mentors and covenmates and I think this is so important. Paganism can be very lonely for some and not only is it nice to be a part of community, but also one that has leadership.

Aside from that, what do you all think about the structure of some covens? I mean, the more hierarchical aspects - the first degree, second degree, etc.? Do you also find yourselves becoming somewhat of a minority in Paganism? Do think that Paganism (or Wicca) is moving away from structure?

I'll toss in my 2 cents' worth too just to give a slightly different perspective.

I've worked as a solitary (and still do), but also with a variety of groups over the years. I work with a coven now too although solitary work is still my primary mode.

The covens that I've worked with all provided the camaraderie, the push to learn new things (because we give ourselves "homework" and topics to study), and also the mentorship to a point. The big difference though for me has been that all of the best covens I've worked with, including the one I work with now, are not part of any established traditions and don't have anything like degrees or formal initiation ceremonies. They were and are eclectic Wiccan groups founded as a way to bring together solitaries like me. None of the groups had a formal leader, no high priests or high priestesses. We all shared the responsibilities to get things done, and rotated through various roles during rituals so that everyone had a chance to do every role at some part through the year.

The covens have been egalitarian and not hierarchical. Perhaps one of the other key details that account for their success was they were small covens by some standards -- five people was the norm, and everyone showed up for every meeting with a few rare exceptions when it just couldn't be helped. Being egalitarian, small covens we also weren't really "teaching" covens as much as workshop, worship, and doing-things covens. We always planned out topics, usually a month in advance, and got everyone involved in preparing for the discussions and projects we took on.

Group work is very rewarding but personally I don't think you get as much out of it unless you also do solitary work. In the end, the spiritual work is stuff you do yourself and can't be done for you by another person. But having that group of other people who you feel "perfect love and perfect trust" with does make it a lot easier to feel grounded and find inspiration to push ahead with your growth.

Starhawk's book, "Truth or Dare," talks about some of the other ways that covens can be structured too if you're interested in looking at more than the standard three degree hierarchy systems. The three degree system is a good system and certainly has its benefits, but there are other options that also work well and might be better suited for different types of covens or people who are not happy with the three-degree system.

[Pandoras]

Starhawk's book, "Truth or Dare," talks about some of the other ways that covens can be structured too if you're interested in looking at more than the standard three degree hierarchy systems.

Oh no, no, no. LOL. Actually, I'm not personally interested in being in a degree-type system. I just want to know about it. Thanks for the recommendation though; I'll check it out. I actually prefer working with the types of small, egalitarian groups you describe.

Let me ask you something else, getting slightly off my original question. Are the covens/groups that you're actively involved with the community at large? For instance, do you organize events or get involved with any causes? Or is it purely spiritual?

My local coven does a lot of community work and they get a lot of really good attention from the local media. So Wiccans and witches here have a pretty positive image.

[Pan]

Thanks for this thread, Pandoras. :smile:

I'm sorry I can't add anything. I was once part of a little eclectic group back in college. It was the best thing that I'd ever done. :smile: I tried to re-create that feeling here in my town, but that backfired, bombed, and blew up in my face all at once.

I'm enjoying reading these replies.

[Rubber_Piggy]

This is really good point I hadn't thought about. As a solitary, it's soooo easy to say, naw I don't care about that, why learn about it. I know I've done it. I think it's important to have a, um, "well rounded education" for lack of a better phrase.

It think the truth of this depends a bit on the person. I for example tend to go totally nuts when I'm interested in something and try to learn absolutely erverything I can about it. Which is why I can't see myself benifiting much from the iniatory coven situation

[Ben Gruagach]

Oh no, no, no. LOL. Actually, I'm not personally interested in being in a degree-type system. I just want to know about it. Thanks for the recommendation though; I'll check it out. I actually prefer working with the types of small, egalitarian groups you describe.

Let me ask you something else, getting slightly off my original question. Are the covens/groups that you're actively involved with the community at large? For instance, do you organize events or get involved with any causes? Or is it purely spiritual?

My local coven does a lot of community work and they get a lot of really good attention from the local media. So Wiccans and witches here have a pretty positive image.

Some of the groups have been very civic-minded with things like doing charity work (helping at the local humane society, doing walkathons for various causes). Some get involved in regional organizations including interfaith ones. Others have been less outward focussed and do things more around personal research and worship.

One thing I've noticed is that the outward focus seems to be more common in groups that have been around for a while. Newer groups probably need the inward focus for the first year at least to help them establish themselves before turning outwards.

It usually seems to help too if the groups start out with modest goals and guard against taking on too much at once. "Burning out" from trying to do too much can be as deadly to a group as personality conflicts.

The coven I work with now, and the one I worked with where I lived before moving here, both were also pretty picky about only admitting people who fit in well with the existing members. There's nothing wrong with turning away potential members who turn out to not be on the same wavelength as the rest of the group (personality, philosophical outlook, whatever) as these days there are usually other groups to suggest they investigate. Or they could start their own groups with others who are of like mind.

It's usually better to work as a solitary than to get involved with a group where you really don't fit in, unless you feel that particular group has something important to teach you and the bad fit is worth putting up with.

[Ben Gruagach]

It think the truth of this depends a bit on the person. I for example tend to go totally nuts when I'm interested in something and try to learn absolutely erverything I can about it. Which is why I can't see myself benifiting much from the iniatory coven situation

It could actually help in many ways, though. Having a mentor who "knows the territory" and who can point you in directions you might not have thought of on your own can really help too.

Sometimes that role can be played by friends -- or even enemies! -- rather than someone in the formal role of teacher or mentor. My own outlook is that we can all learn things from each other -- we're all teachers and students at the same time. When I stop learning in this life it will be because I've died.

[Pandoras]

It think the truth of this depends a bit on the person. I for example tend to go totally nuts when I'm interested in something and try to learn absolutely erverything I can about it. Which is why I can't see myself benifiting much from the iniatory coven situation

I'm guilty of that. I have an insatiable hunger for knowledge (and certain varieties of French cookies). I want to know so much and I have so many projects going on. I get very little done and I hardly sleep (primarily because I spend so much time on MW). But this is exactly why, for me, structure and organization is good. The only thing that turns me off is the ceremonial aspect of covens.

I've celebrated Sabbats with my local coven and I've generally enjoyed it (especially Samhain and Beltane), but it's so formal. They dress up in their special ritual gear, cast a formal circle, call the quarters, invoke the deities, cut doorways, etc. It's all very by the book. And this is the part that's just not really my cup of tea.

[Pandoras]

Ben Gruagach -

You are very cool. :)

[Loopaleigh]

I'm guilty of that. I have an insatiable hunger for knowledge (and certain varieties of French cookies).

Le Petite Ecolier ;)....but that's OT.

[Jenett]

Aside from that, what do you all think about the structure of some covens? I mean, the more hierarchical aspects - the first degree, second degree, etc.?

Quite honestly, heirarchy doesn't bother me as long as I respect the people above me in it. In the case of coven work, the people at higher degrees have put *huge* amounts of time and energy into it, and I think it's fair that they get a significant say in how things run (in part because they're the ones putting in a lot of the time/effort to make those things happen.)

In practice, it's fairly common for the initiates to talk about changes/decisions, and if anyone has any big objections, they get worked out. Pretty much the way you'd hope a bunch of people who cared about one another would. *grin*

It often feels a lot like work to me: I like my boss, I like the head of school I work for, I like other co-workers. I generally trust them to make sane decisions. But I'm also clear that they have greater responsibilities than just to me or what I'd prefer. I know they get (and have to) make the final decisions that keep a whole bunch of things in balance. But I also know that they don't want me to be miserable, so if I *do* have problems, I let them know, and we can look for better options.

In other words, yes, it's a heirarchy, but it's not a dictatorial one: the reason it works is because everyone recognises their role in making stuff work, and is presumably mature enough to speak up about concerns.

One thing that's true in a lot of covens: the degrees aren't about "Oooh, I'm better than/witchier than thou" - they're about taking on more responsibility and obligation, both to the group and to the Craft in general. That's not the right path for everyone, nor necessarily the right place for someone at a specific point in their life. And that's ok. What matters is that people make responsible choices, and don't take on responsibilities they know they can't live up to.

Do you also find yourselves becoming somewhat of a minority in Paganism? Do think that Paganism (or Wicca) is moving away from structure?

Yes and no. There's still plenty of structured groups around, but it does get tiring sometimes to hear the "Oh, I don't *need* a group to make me work..." (as if people working in groups are lacking in free will of their own or something)

Or "I have the freedom to do whatever I want" (well, not exactly. You're still answerable to relevant laws, to your gods, and to people who care about you, right? Plus, most people in coven settings do plenty of personal work, and often that's not done in the same format or method as the coven does)

What's probably hardest are the people who say they want the benefits of group work - structured training, recognition of a certain level of training or experience, community, etc. but who aren't actually willing to do the work to make that happen. Sometimes, this is just tedious (but relatively easy to ignore), but sometimes people come into groups wanting the group to change to suit them and their desires, and that can be really destructive to the group (and lots of the individual people involved.) Or at least time consuming and messy.

I think there's always going to be a structured part to the Craft - the question is how public and accessible that's going to be, how easy it is to find without some effort. I wouldn't be surprised (and some signs seem to be tending that way) if many covens withdraw somewhat from public notice in the next few years, and focus on their own work, without being very obvious about what they're doing. (I wouldn't be surprised if we continue to have public structured groups too, of course...)

To answer stuff from another post of yours...
Are the covens/groups that you're actively involved with the community at large? For instance, do you organize events or get involved with any causes? Or is it purely spiritual?

We've been doing active teaching (intro classes open to anyone, as well as trainign for group members) for a number of years. However, we're going to be taking a break for at least a little to help get over some looming burnout, get the coven calendar under better control, spend some time focusing on some other goals, things like that.

It's also pretty standard expectation for people working towards their 2nd and 3rd degrees to help out in the broader Pagan community to some extent - helping put on public ritual, teaching at Pagan Pride, helping with various community events. That varies, though, and it's usually not a huge focus, more like a "every six months or so" sort of thing.

We haven't tended to do general community-broad community sorts of stuff (i.e. non-Pagan related) but that's largely due to an already crowded calendar. Individual people certainly do, depending on their interests/other commitments/etc.

[Ben Trismegistus]

It think the truth of this depends a bit on the person. I for example tend to go totally nuts when I'm interested in something and try to learn absolutely erverything I can about it. Which is why I can't see myself benifiting much from the iniatory coven situation
Could you expand on why you think an initiatory coven situation would preclude you from learning everything you can about a subject?

In my experience, the coven situation gives me *more* of an opportunity to immerse myself entirely in a subject. There are other people to bounce idea off of, suggest books, discuss opposing viewpoints, etc. And, like Jenett said, the coven experience has introduced me to subjects I would never have thought of otherwise. I've been immersing myself in Hermeticism and the works of Hermes Trismegistus (hence the name), which would never have interested me before my High Priest suggested it to me.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Aside from that, what do you all think about the structure of some covens? I mean, the more hierarchical aspects - the first degree, second degree, etc.?
Well, I have a real problem with certain kinds of traditional hierarchy - i.e. I get to tell you what to do because I'm the boss. I think that respect and authority need to be earned. That said, my coven has a form of hierarchy - the elder's circle. In our case, our elders are our High Priest and High Priestess (who have been through all three degrees), and *their* covenmates. It's not a situation of them being *over* us, but simply a matter of them having more experience and knowledge than us. They are more like mentors and guides than "leaders". And although they are our mentors, don't for a moment think that they do any of the work for us. They point us in the right direction, but our spiritual journey is 100% our own.

As for the degree system, I love it. It gives me a real sense of accomplishment - a set of specific goals to work towards. If I were a solitary, my natural procrastinator would take over, and my learning progress would likely be very slow. In our coven, I had a list of material that I needed to know prior to each degree. For someone who has a hard time staying organized, that sort of specific syllabus helped tremendously. And the degree rituals themselves are truly magical and life-changing experiences. They are truly transformative in every sense of the word.

Do you also find yourselves becoming somewhat of a minority in Paganism? Do think that Paganism (or Wicca) is moving away from structure?
Sometimes. I definitely feel that my sort of traditional, structured Wicca is a minority in the pagan community. I'm an advocate for my particular path, simply because I've gotten so much out of it, and think that others can get just as much out of it, but I recognize that it's not for everyone. I feel sad sometimes that not everyone in the pagan community can share the experiences that I've had, but I have to respect that some people are simply not comfortable with structured ritual.

[DebLipp]

I'm not sure I'll manage to answer all the questions raised. I'm going to just, y'know, talk, and see if that works, and of course you can ask questions if I leave something out. (teehe)

I'm a 3rd degree Gardnerian High Priestess. I was trained in a traditional coven and I have run traditional groups.

The degree system is multi-layered to me. First, of course it's acknowledgement of a level of acheivement. Of course you can call it heirarchical, and to a certain extent it is, but then, you expect that in school you start in kindergarten and then go to first grade and then middle school, high school, college, graduate school. You have to work your way through, and while there are exceptions in the pacing, most people need more or less the same amount of time.

The interesting thing about the school analogy is that it's ALSO a multi-level achievement. Educators are learning that it's not necessarily a good idea to put a kid several grades ahead even if he's smart enough, even if he's Doogie Howser. Because a kid also needs to move through an emotional, physical, and social process alongside the intellectual one. In Wicca, add the spiritual process. The degrees mark a level of attainment and readiness. In fact, it is a mistake to put someone through a degree they're not ready for.

There's an episode of Original Star Trek called Charlie X where Charlie wants to learn how to fight but Captain Kirk first wants to teach him shoulder rolls so he can fall safely. Charlie is angry about this; why should he learn to fall? He wants to learn to fight!

Nobody gets a degree in my coven until I am confident they've learned the requisite shoulder rolls. The degree ritual puts you into a certain spiritual place and it is my responsibility to make sure that only appropriate people enter that place.

And the heirarchy in a coven is non-existent, in my experience, beyond the leadership. My coven is my coven; it is run by the HPS and HP. Beyond that, there is no ranking or jockeying or privileges or powers based on who in the coven is 1st, 2nd, or 3rd degree. I give each member of the coven individual work based on their needs, and of course that shifts as they are elevated, but if anything, it's harder and worse to be higher degree. I make you work more, I hold you more responsible for your behavior and your karma.

People need to trust me. I don't expect anyone to "obey" me just because I say so. I offer credentials, lineage, so that people know who I am and why I think I'm qualified to call myself a HPS. They can choose to be in my group or not—the fact that this sort of teaching is a minority means I am certainly not controlling anyone; everyone has feet, everyone can walk, there's lots of places to go. Anyone can challenge, anyone can ask "why," but I don't always answer. There are secrets, that's the nature of an initiatory tradition.

The fact that traditions like mine are making up a smaller and smaller portion of the community does not make us irrelevant. Our work is meaningful because it is our work; it doesn't matter who else is doing it. In fact, I think more people are members of traditional covens than ever before; our rate of growth is slower than the larger community, that's all. In the past twenty years, I'd guess there are 3 or 4 times as many Gardnerians as there used to be, and 10 or 20 times as many Pagans. So we only decrease by percentage. But the value of our work is not measured in numbers and never has been.

[Ben Gruagach]

I'm glad Deb posted that. I think it reinforces what Ben T. and others have been saying that degree systems can be a powerful way to provide structured ways to grow spiritually.

Wicca, though, is a religion that doesn't have a central authority for all Wiccans so in the end we have all sorts of varying amounts of quality between different sects. More structured sects such as Gardnerian and Alexandrian likely have better control over the quality of people who are allowed to call themselves first degree, second degree, and third degree initiates because that established hierarchy will hopefully try and maintain standards. That isn't always the case in other sects or groups though. A third degree initiate from one tradition might be extremely knowledgeable and a good leader, while someone from another group or sect with a third degree initiation might not be anywhere near that level of quality.

That is another one of the downsides to groups like my current coven and some of the others I've worked with -- because they weren't part of established sects with formalized ways of establishing quality, it's harder for us to point people towards other groups that we know are good unless we happen to know people in those groups personally or have some other inside knowledge of those groups. If we were part of tradition X and knew that all X groups followed specific minimal standards, then it would be easier for me to just point people to the nearest X group even though I might not know any of the people in that specific group personally.

I guess what I'm saying is that people who are new to Wicca, or who are not necessarily new but are looking for a local group to join, need to evaluate potential groups with their eyes open and at least some skepticism. Not all groups will provide the same quality, although some sects do try to maintain at least some standards for all groups in their sect. Do your homework before you commit to join a group (like Isaac Bonewits' excellent "cult danger evaluation frame" at http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html ) and make sure the particular group is right for you before you pledge a long term commitment.

Unfortunately, even within the Wiccan and Pagan communities, there are some groups and individuals who are not exactly spiritual. For some unscrupulous people it's a way to scam people, either to get money from them or a way to play power games and mess with other people's lives. It always makes me mad when I hear about people getting victimized by predators like these. The best way to avoid that sort of thing is to try and educate ourselves on what makes a good leader, a good teacher, and a good group and then try to make sure we live up to those expectations.

[Pandoras]

You all have said so many excellent things and I really thank you for posting and sharing.

There's still plenty of structured groups around, but it does get tiring sometimes to hear the "Oh, I don't *need* a group to make me work..." (as if people working in groups are lacking in free will of their own or something)
I think this attitude is very prevalent and I think I was also guilty of it at some point (and maybe a little even still) especially when I was at my beginner stage. But I've been Pagan for about ten years and I've been very avid about reading and learning, but I'm getting to the point where I need more. There's a lot of resources for beginners and for advanced students, but I think of myself as being more of an intermediate. I'm exactly the kind of person who could probably benefit tremendously from some structured training.

Sometimes. I definitely feel that my sort of traditional, structured Wicca is a minority in the pagan community.Sometimes I think structured anything is a minority in the Pagan community.

Ok, more questions...if I get my basics wrong, please correct me. I was hoping you all would share a little more on your beliefs and practices.

Do your personal beliefs differ in any way from those that the coven elders have established for the coven? And, if so, how, does it ever get in the way, and how do you deal with that?

[DebLipp]

Do your personal beliefs differ in any way from those that the coven elders have established for the coven? And, if so, how, does it ever get in the way, and how do you deal with that?
I think establishing beliefs for coven members FAR exceeds my authority. I establish practices and behaviors because we are a group and I am a leader and a teacher and a guide and all that stuff, but the contents of another person's heart and mind is not mine to control.

So, members of my coven might believe that all gods are ultimately One, or they might be hard polytheists. They might or might not believe in reincarnation. They might believe in a fated or random universe. Ultimately, I do not believe that is mine to say and CERTAINLY not mine to control.

What we do is we listen to one another's beliefs and ideas and preferences and we jointly come up with a practice that we are all comfortable with, so that we can all work in harmony.

[Pandoras]

I think establishing beliefs for coven members FAR exceeds my authority. I establish practices and behaviors because we are a group and I am a leader and a teacher and a guide and all that stuff, but the contents of another person's heart and mind is not mine to control.

Oh, sorry, that's not what I mean. Let me rephrase.

I wouldn't attempt to join my local coven because it has certain rules and/or practices (based on certain beliefs) that I don't agree or feel comfortable with. So my question is, is there anything about the coven that ever comes into direct conflict with something you might (or might not) believe? How do you deal with these kind of difference? (Although in your case, Debb, your last paragraph pretty much answers it.)

[DebLipp]

Oh, sorry, that's not what I mean. Let me rephrase.

I wouldn't attempt to join my local coven because it has certain rules and/or practices (based on certain beliefs) that I don't agree or feel comfortable with. So my question is, is there anything about the coven that ever comes into direct conflict with something you might (or might not) believe? How do you deal with these kind of difference? (Although in your case, Debb, your last paragraph pretty much answers it.)
There are certain things that are required in my tradition. Not only are they required, but we WANT to do them because we WANT to be a part of the tradition. Now, in some cases, it happens that someone doesn't like one of these things. Sometimes we can then do LESS of it, but we wouldn't eliminate it entirely. Other things are impossible to work around. Like skyclad—you're either naked or you ain't. In that case, I do let people know as far in advance as appropriate that this is going to come up, so they can decide to leave if they need to.

[Gede]

MM~
I have to contribute to this thread considering I only have minimal "structured" Coven experience, but I can offer a little of what I know regarding Coven make-up and indeed my own very unique time leading a teen group in my area.

Basically our Coven was very laid-back, although we took a leaf from the heirachical nature of Gardnerian/Alexandrian Covens and we inducted a HP and HPS, I coincedentally happened to receive the role of HP, although these roles were bestowed because we figured we were the most devoted out of the group (being the only two that turned up on Initiation day :P) and because we didn't consider these roles as anything elevating our status above the rest of the Coven members, at that stage there were only potential candidates and it was purely an organisational and preliminary thing, and we discussed rotating roles each cross-quarter Sabbat, and at the Samhain Initiation Ritual a month later the Initiates told us that they would be comfortable if we continued with the HP/HPS roles. Besides apparently I was a good leader :S though when it came to it there was a lot of awful slander going on behind my back and very negative energy from two members most of all...The others I got along great with. I guess the nature of some of the members just got to the over-all Coven energy and eventually it fell through, but it still taught me a lot. By the end of it the HPS lost a great deal of interest in both the Coven and the Craft itself while several others seemed to be following in her path, though there was one other Priestess who is still one of my closest friends who remains true to her path to this day and we honour each other for this :) So yeah...that's my two cents worth~

Namaste, Gede...

[Ben Trismegistus]

I wouldn't attempt to join my local coven because it has certain rules and/or practices (based on certain beliefs) that I don't agree or feel comfortable with. So my question is, is there anything about the coven that ever comes into direct conflict with something you might (or might not) believe? How do you deal with these kind of difference? (Although in your case, Debb, your last paragraph pretty much answers it.)
Deb's an authority on all of this stuff. Her answers are all great. But here's my answer too :)

As Deb said, there are things that are deal-breakers and things that aren't. There are basically theological beliefs that are necessary (it would be hard to be a Wiccan if you didn't believe in both a God AND a Goddess), but the details are largely up to the individual. Then there are ritual practices that are necessary (casting circles, for instance), and some that aren't (individuals use different texts for calling the quarters, for instance). I have not personally come across anything in my coven tradition that I disagreed with or had a problem with in any way. A covenmate of mine had problems with certain aspects of the first degree initiation, and she brought her concerns to the HP and HPs. They were able to explain those issues to her in a historical and metaphorical context, and she now has a better understand of her experience and the purposes for it.

Also, as Deb said, anything that might be a deal-breaker is generally explained from the outset. In my coven, we attended months of open workshops before the HP & HPs held interviews for people who wanted to be in the formal coven. We were asked a large variety of questions about our personal beliefs and our comfort with certain aspects of ritual, including our feelings about working skyclad. Out of perhaps 35 applicants, the HP & HPs chose 12 people who they thought were a perfect fit due to their beliefs and personalities. They were able to recommend several others to different covens that would suit them better.

The point is, in a good coven, this sort of conflict is ironed out at the very beginning. The most important aspect of a successful coven is that the personalities and working styles of all of the covenmates are complementary. Not that they all have to believe exactly the same thing or practice the same way, but that they have the ability to work well together. Because if you can't trust your covenmates absolutely implicitly, then you can't do any serious work.

[Pandoras]

How did you find your coven? Or did it find you?

[Jenett]

Found mine one of the standard ways these days - looked around on Witchvox, and kept my ears open while going to public rituals. (In my case, I got several pointers at the same group - the one I'm still with - which I took as a good sign.)

The group I work with teaches a series of 5 intro classes periodically. You've got to go through the classes to be considered for further training. The information is mostly basic stuff (and except for some comments about other local options, stuff you can find in books)

I liked that, because it gave me a way to get to know various people in the group before looking at a more long-term commitment.

It was also a setting that's a little more familiar for a lot of people (we're used to the kind of interactions that go on in classes, even small ones. It's sometimes a little more nervewracking to do the 'meet with coven members at a coffee shop or something, and wonder what you're going to say.' (though I know that method works well for a lot of groups.)