Sin...

[Danustouch]

I found this quote..found in the introduction of the Tibetan Book of the Dead (as translated by Francesca Fremantle, and Chogyam Trungpa) interesting:

"The concept of Sin, for instance, is inevitably associated with original sin, guilt, and punishment, which have no place in most Eastern teachings. Instead, Bhuddism looks for the basic cause of Sin and suffering, and discovers this to be the belief in a self, or ego as the center of existence. Since we expereience the whole of life from this falsely centralized viewpoint, we cannot know the world as it really is. This is what is meant by the world is unreal. The remedy is to see through the illusion, to attain the insight of emptiness, the absence of what is false".

I think this is very interesting. I don't necessarily think that man should be completely devoid of self worth, or anything...but self worth needs to be in the proper place. Seen, in it's proper order in life. In other words, IMO...we need to realize that we are so small in comparison to all that IS...and keep ourselves humble to that fact. In my opinion, realizing that we are a PART of a greater whole, connected, and a part of everything else....well..this is a very valuable lesson. Anyone else get anything differen't out of this passage?

[marevard]

This is what I got out of it:
We are the center of our existence. We live our live from the center, never to venture out and we do not experience life any other way. By doing this, we do not truly see the world, but only the delusion of it that we have created in our minds (or ego if you wish). In order to truly see the world for what it is, one must let go of their ego and 'start out' viewing the world from scratch (from emptiness). Thus, one does not have the altercations of the ego to interfere with true sight.
It is much shorter reading the Tebetan Book of the Dead then my verison :)
As for completly devoiding themselves of self worth, I am not sure if that really happens. I can be wrong and probablity am. Right now, I view it as a form of compassion or finding compassion. In the end, they (ones who let go of their egos) come to the same end results, just a different way. All is connected and one's self is just a tiny part of the whole. IMO
All of this brings into mind the axiom, "Know thyself and thou shalt know the world."

[EasternPriest]

Another interesting read is the "Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Songyol Rimpoche.

Tibetan Buddhism believes that evil/sin are an illusion, "samsara." The problems that we have in leaving the world behind and attaining perfection are due to "attachment." When we no longer are attached to anything on this earthly plane, including thoughts and feelings, then we achieve perfection and return no more. Until that time, we live through many lifetimes in this process.

[Tigerwallah]

Those are my beliefs exactly! :boing:

[MasterMoon]

Interesting quote sweety..
true we cannot experience the world as totally objective because we see it throught the self. We live our lives through the eyes of what is known as the image. The image is who we think we are and all our genetic predispositions.
This perception makes it appear as though there is a "me" and a world "out there".
Of course there is only the world..and we are part of it. The proof is this: Just how are you seperate from the atmosphere?..We are constanly intercoursing the atmosphere in order to breathe. We are not seperate from it. (dont believe me?..expel all your air and hold it for 5 mins..lol).
Self worth comes from helping others.

[amberlaine]

I'm somethig of a pantheist, and as such, I believe that all of us are part and particle of God. We each have within us the Divine spark, that light which can, in theory, propel us toward the Divine. But we have to be willing to use that spark to set us on a path of Good (a path which does in fact lead to the Divine), for otherwise we set ourselves on a path of Evil (a path which leads away from the Divine)

In that process of ascent, as we beomce more and more the beings we want to be and simultaneously the beings Deity wants us to be, we must maintain a notion of humility. If we are ablt o remember our place in the grat scheme of things, to remember that we are part of a network rather than mereky selfish, autonomous human beings, then we preserve our humility, which is more likely to enable us to keep our feet on the path of Good.

[Danustouch]

wow...very nicely put!!!

[Tigerwallah]

Even if you choose good, a little bad comes along with it. Well, actually, I prefer positive and negative and creative and destructive to the use of good and bad. There can never be one without the other. The other day I was thinking about this philosphy, and found no exceptions to the rule. Take the recent attack. Did only bad occur? No. Out of an act that appeared to be all evil, negative, and destructive much positive was found. Americans came together like never before to give and support a common cause. The bickering and partisanship that was plaguing our country came to a sudden halt, and in it's place was left a country united in love and support and resolve. Sin is a very complex concept. Often, those who label an act a sin or a person a sinner have ulterior motives to do so.

Yes, if you look at the world in chemical/geological terms we are all a part of the whole. However, our souls do not follow the same laws as our matter does. How else would someone have made the journey to the moon? The souls of brave, intelligent, creative men and women allowed the impossible to happen, again and again. We are individuals. I am an individual - a part of a whole, and yet, apart from the whole.

[Myst]

IMHO, Sin is a purely human concept. You don't find a lion eating a fallen deer wondering if he's "sinned". Even divinity is outside that concept; you don't find the Morrigan wondering if she's been a bad, bad girl. You didn't find Zeus sorry for his infidelities. Positive with negative, always.

[Danustouch]

My personal idea of Sin, is that it is not an act, or a series of acts, but an attitude. IMO...if you act against your own personal truth/truths....If you act against what you know to be right, if you ignore your own concscience, that...is Sin. Because, in the end, I believe that Sin is Rebellion....rebellion against what????? Yourself. And since I also believe that I am part of you, and part of everyone else, and that everyone else is part of the greater universe....my actions should be in accordance to the laws of the universe. That is how I rationalize it, anyway. I don't believe in any God/Goddess in any place like Heaven, weighing and judging us for..."Sin". I believe that that is not the role of God/Goddess. I believe that we are our OWN judge, and that we punish ourselves, as noone else can. So what is Sin to me???? That which harms ourselves. That which goes against our own inner knowledge. So..I do agree with the tibetan quote..but I also believe it is a little more than that. Not only do we need to realize our connection to everything else in this Universe..and that we are not separate..but we must also know ourselves, know our beliefs..and live them. Sorry if this seems confusing....just trying to formulate my jumbled thoughts on the subject.

[Myst]

Interesting thoughts Danus. Some brain food for me :)

I do know people tend to expect others to live by standards they don't live by, or try to preach things they don't even practice (see my sig). Sometimes people forget to watch their own behaviour and to be the best person they can be because they're too busy trying to harp on other people's behaviour. And it's not a positive thing. Well thanks, D, now I have jumbled thoughts too :)

[Danustouch]

LOL..sorry Willow..that post was made somewhere in the vicinity of Three in the Morning..lol..so it was at that point..almost incoherant. LOL. Glad it made you think :) lol....I wish I could type during dream state..that would REALLY give you something to think about..lol.

[Tigerwallah]

Even though it was 3am, I think you were on the mark. I don't consider mistakes or rebellions as sins, but I get what you are saying. To me sin is an absolutely Christian term, and some things that Christians see as sins, I don't see anything wrong with - like having lustful thoughts, using birth control, premarital sex and missing church.

I absolutely agree that we will not be judged by a god/goddess for our "sins." I believe we live our lives to learn from our mistakes, and when we are successful we move on from the human lesson stage.

[Myst]

I don't know about it being an absolutely Christian term, being as other beliefs use the same concept and I know several people who aren't (or at least I wouldn't consider them) Christians and use that term freely, including the Tibetan who wrote the article at the beginning of this thread..

[Illuminatus]

Funny that that Tibeten book should describe the "Self" as the center of the universe, because if you take a quick look around you, that's the way Western culture seems to be going. I am very much a worshipper at the alter of Self, and the trend seems to be catching on!

[Swanspirit]

ascent and descent...... and I believe that "direction UP OR DOWN" is also related to linear thinking...... and as such doesnt fit my paradigm ........of wholeness......because it places a value judgement on a "direction"........and as a part of the larger universe......... I dont see feel or experience it that way it that way .......
I feel it is more simply a matter of experience and learning........and ascribing values to a direction would be like ascribing values to a color....... choosing one as inherently better than another ........... and SIN...... as judgement call........ doesnt fit that paradigm......
The realisation that one has harmed someone or something ...... is an internal process.....
and morals can be "taught" but have to be internalised and reinforced as a child....
and "causing harm " does not have to be taught as SIN...... as a LIST of things one shuold and should not do........or related to a salvation or ascent or descent...... but as a
perception of being interrelated to ones species and environment.....
Love and light
Swannie

[Myst]

*bump*