PDA

View Full Version : Chaos Magic & Discordianism



Loopaleigh
October 10th, 2004, 01:48 AM
Ok, well for many, many, years now I have treasured my copies of the Principia Discordia.
Even though I consider myself Eclectic Pagan, the goddess Eris has greatly influenced my path. :)

But I must confess, that other than what I have read here in posts on MW, I don't know much about Chaos Magic. There is a thread here in Paths (by KaoxMage or Auyn?) that has been very helpful and I recently bought some books that they mention are good.
Condensed Chaos and Liber Null/Psychonaut.

So, I guess what I would like to know from you guys is what exactly ARE the connections between Discordianism and Chaos Magic? Are there any connections? Was Chaos Magic born out of Discordianism? Or is it not related at all? Am I drawing connections that aren't there? Or are the two intertwinned?

I'm going to start on my new books in the next couple of days, but in the meantime I would like to get some first hand input and knowledge from others. Thanks!

Xeen
October 11th, 2004, 12:42 AM
One word will answer all your questions:

Fnord.

Loopaleigh
October 11th, 2004, 12:59 AM
Yes...such is the way of Eris! :)

auryn
October 11th, 2004, 11:25 AM
Well, I think the long and short of it is that a lot of Chaotes like Discordianism, and a lot of Discordians can appreciate the Chaos theory. Also, Robert Anton Wilson wrote the intro to the fourth edition of TPD, and he's written a lot of material that Chaotes find useful.

You might find http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Principia_Discordia interesting, particularly the psycho-metaphysics part, which is basically Chaos theory.

In general I think of Discordia is the sillier side of Chaos, and Chaos as the more scientific, practical usage of Discordia. Then again, I've never been Discordian, so maybe I'm misunderstanding.

kaosxmage
October 11th, 2004, 01:22 PM
Chaos magick and discordians are a bit intertwined, but I believe it happened as an afterthought. As stated previously, discordians seem to embody the sillier side of chaos theory, but that doesn't make it less effective. The links are there, and after reading other works by Robert Anton Wilson, I'm convinced that he's a fan of chaos theory ...I suppose we could all be the judge on our own.

Fnord, :evilway:
--Kaos

Loopaleigh
October 11th, 2004, 03:40 PM
Thanks for the info guys!
I like that the two kinda go together (silly & serious) even if it wasn't intentional....makes perfect sense to me!
I'm starting Condensed Chaos today....

Nantonos
October 11th, 2004, 04:23 PM
I recently bought some books that they mention are good.
Condensed Chaos and Liber Null/Psychonaut.

Phil Hine's Condensed Chaos is a pretty good magical primer even for those who don't plan to pursue a Chaos path. I would reccommend it, and not just for beginners but also as a review and re-examination for those more experienced. I find it more direct and more experiential than Carroll's work which tends a bit to the intentional obscurity and laughing up the cuff that seems fashionable among some Thelemites for example.

Geryongesis
October 15th, 2004, 02:36 PM
I find that Dr. Phil, as in Oprah's psycho Ex, has many books that are somehow connected to it all...Every time I read a Dr Phil book, I come away with a greater knowlege of Chaos, Discord, and the forces involved...whether it was his intent or not. Additionally I am a proponent of those who wish to raise Dr Phil up to the status of an Erisian Avatar.

Brother Sister thoroughly mocks me whenever I attempt to bring up his excellent history of supporting chaos in America, but I am of the opinion that Brother Sister is in league with the Aneristic Cult of Defnordation...Forgive me I digress.

You can find information on Eris and Chaos ANYWHERE. I have found Eris in the food trap of my sink. I have found her when I couldnt find my left shoe once. I have found her when my television only got images in shades of blue. She is out there. Just look.

LIAL
August 4th, 2006, 08:01 PM
A large number of the discordians I know laugh really hard at the idea of mahdgjickqueue (or whatever the current spelling is), just sayin.

Little Billy
August 5th, 2006, 02:37 AM
A large number of the discordians I know laugh really hard at the idea of mahdgjickqueue (or whatever the current spelling is), just sayin.


169% TROOF.

eldora_avalon
August 5th, 2006, 10:17 AM
Phil Hine is cool. You'll like his books. The Smartie Spell is eerily similar to the Skittles ads :hehehehe:

Discordians were the first neo pagans, so they came before anyone else, ask Margot Adler.

So, that means Chaos Magic, as something formal, came later. That is if you believe that time is linear.

Chaos Theory is about mathematics, which is something completely different, unless it isn't. It took a long time for scientists and mathematicians to get together on this and it took computers to do the math. Like a lot of other leaps forward in computer technology, the weather dorks were pushing it forward, helping things along, testing the boundaries, whatever. Lorenz was a meteorolgist, but he had to do the math, because the math guys weren't interested in weather. The biology dorks weren't interested in the math, but were looking at Chaos in action with population distributions. When they all got together, finding Chaos explained a lot of things, like patterns in all disciplines that didn't look like patterns until you applied Chaos, Hail Eris!

Discordians are a diverse group, so trying to label them usually turns ugly at some point. We have people who just like to disrupt things, some who are more about the math stuff, others who view it is a religion, many who view it as a philosphy. All these groups are important to us and only insiders are allowed to disparage the others. We Discordians stick apart, for sure, until someone else crosses that line, then somehow we stick together. I blame the bubblegum. Oh, and Wiki is a dangerous trap, just saying :spaceman:

But, be very careful about calling us silly. Or viewing us as harmless jesters. We take our humor seriously and our seriousness humorously. There is much more than silliness. That is all I am allowed to reveal at this time. If this didn't make sense, then I did it just right ;)

Semele
August 7th, 2006, 11:34 PM
A large number of the discordians I know laugh really hard at the idea of mahdgjickqueue (or whatever the current spelling is), just sayin.

Do they also laugh at electricity or digital cameras?

eldora_avalon
August 8th, 2006, 12:17 AM
Do they also laugh at electricity or digital cameras?
Not sure what he means by large numbers, not sure if he is very good with mathematics. Or even Arithmetic.

Most of the Discordians I know are witches, well maybe that would be Erisians and maybe they are Buddhists _inabox_

Lets Go Bowling
August 8th, 2006, 01:53 AM
A large number of the discordians I know laugh really hard at the idea of mahdgjickqueue (or whatever the current spelling is), just sayin.

A large number of Discordians laugh at the internets, their cars, and the fact that they can't tie their own shoelaces too. They also laugh at the idea of government, money, and personalities.

I don't know where "LIAL" got the notion that many laugh at the idea of magic. But he probably only associates with those who agree with his views. Most Discordians I know can't agree on magic, but will try it out wholeheartedly just to learn how to use it to sell things.

Lets Go Bowling
August 8th, 2006, 02:06 AM
Eldora is right.

Discordianism came first and was part of the broader neo-Pagan thing that eventually became separate and distinctive religions. Wiccans will say that they were the first neo-Pagans, but that's because they never learned the secret handshake.

As for Chaos Magic, it started in the 1980's in England and spread to the States by the nineties. It was originally the province of rogues and mavericks who hated the whole notion of ritualssss and correct forms of studying magic. The "chaos kids" just wanted to know what worked and what didn't. They found out that much of what passes for magic and occult lore is really nothing but things people learned by rote from so-and-so guru or so-and-so upmteenth degree high magusss from the plane of zeldroa or some such crap.

The basic premise of chaos magic is: do what works and to the rubbish bin with the rest. Try things out in different ways. Learn the reality of the magic, not the bull crap that people associate with it due to their religious or superstitious prejudices or preconceived 'spiritual' sounding notions.

The CM kids also learned that what often works is not what people are often told. Therefore, a lot of teachings and teachers and so-called adepts didn't really know what they were getting on about.

CM also developed a metaparadigmatic approach to not only magic, but to other things like beliefs, gods, spirits, mental states, etc.

Anyway, a lot of Discordians are into CM, but don't confuse the two. Some Discordians don't have time to wear any silly hats and therefore can't delve into messing about with Azathoth or Thor or even Superman in some confected ritual made up last week by potsmoking poets.

Vincent Verthaine
August 22nd, 2006, 08:16 AM
A lot of discordians like to make fun of "magick" because way too many pagans tend to overrate themselves in that department.

eldora_avalon
August 22nd, 2006, 09:41 AM
That and magic should be fun and some pagans take it way too seriously for me. If I wanted all that fancy schmancy stuff I can just go to the Catholic church down the road from me. They have candles and incense and turning stuff into other stuff and a guy up front in a fancy dress, not much different than a lot of pagan rituals. That's just my take and if that's what someone else wants to do, that's cool, but Discordians usually prefer simpler rituals that have more laughter and less seriousness.

Amelserru_halqu
August 22nd, 2006, 12:08 PM
If I wanted all that fancy schmancy stuff I can just go to the Catholic church down the road from me.

*Whines* But they're Christian... and intolerent of overweight self obessed teenagers with a god complex

eldora_avalon
August 22nd, 2006, 01:37 PM
*Whines* But they're Christian... and intolerent of overweight self obessed teenagers with a god complex
You get candles, incense, wine and crackers. Still sounds a lot like a Pagan ritual to me. _inabox_

And to say all Christians are intolerant is as misleading as it is to say that all Pagans are tolerant. Sometimes we assume that all people that are kind of like us are exactly like us and they're not. Sometimes we also assume that all people that are different are really different and bad and they're not. People are apes and some are cool and fun and agree with us and make sense to us and some aren't and don't.

I know you were kidding, but still ;)

Vincent Verthaine
August 22nd, 2006, 04:22 PM
I think what left a real bad taste about chaos magic(and magic in general) for discordians is,when,in the mid '90's the Vampire:the Masquerade wannabe baby bats and Prince Albert wearing industrial rivet-heads who couldn't cut it as Satanists discovered it.

It went from "using what works,discarding the junk" to "who can out-spookey who".

Thats why Pete Carroll left the IOT,and Chaos groups like the Z-Cluster,Temple Ov Thee Psychic Youth,and a few other fell apart.

It started to become about having an 'evil dark image',Calling up Cthuhlu,and the fun and exploration was forgotten.It became just an excuse to be a self centered materialistic asshole,and I've always thought thats what Satanism was for,not chaos magic.

To them,chaos magic was just another form of black magic,and they totally missed the point of chaos magic.

They forgot that the pioneers of chaos Magic(Hine,Carroll,Sherwin) all stressed the influence discordianism had on forming chaos magic.

I see no reason why chaos magic needs it's own sub-forum here,since chaos magic is a continuation of what the early discordian cabals set forth.

Tentasticle
August 22nd, 2006, 06:31 PM
Chaos Magic... yes, well... As far as I'm concerned it's always been about combining useful, practical techniques to forge your own path - using altered states of consciousness through a variety of techniques begged, borrowed, adapted, mutated or stolen wholesale from other paths.

The underlying mechanism to this is that it's not actually necessary to believe in the process you are using - just "believe" it for as long as necessary for the work you are conducting - kind of like short-term "doublethink" a la 1984 - paradigm-shifting for as long as is necessary. This strikes a chord with the majority of Discordians I know, who are entirely capable of (and actively encourage) believing two or more contradictory things simultaneously ;)

Other useful contributors to Chaos Magic(k) that have been missed from the lists so far are Frater Choronzon/Chas (one of the British pioneers) and Julian Vayne. As with most practitioners, methods that work for THEM may not work for YOU, but there you go - that's the nature of the beast. You may find (as I do) at least one of those two to have a fairly annoying style, but don't let your personal feelings about the writer put you off reading their work ;)

eldora_avalon
August 22nd, 2006, 07:26 PM
Chaos Magic... yes, well... As far as I'm concerned it's always been about combining useful, practical techniques to forge your own path - using altered states of consciousness through a variety of techniques begged, borrowed, adapted, mutated or stolen wholesale from other paths.

Discordians don't need to borrow from anyone else, everyone else has already borrowed from us. The Discordians were the first neo pagans, ew I hate that tag right now, but we were the first, so if we borrow from anyone we are borrowing what they already borrowed so we are taking back crap that already belongs to us anyway. :santasmil (I have the book When Santa was a Shaman, just as a btw :hehehehe: )

To me it's about using that tacky magic wand I got at Target on clearance one year after Halloween in my rituals. It works for me. If you like to burn poppets after your ritual, use the napkins that come in the plastic silverwear package from Wendy's, they burn really fast and leave little ash. I might do a ritual in an MSN Messenger window with other Discordians and there will be no physical trappings at all, except the computers. There are no rules except to have fun and be true to yourself. Remember that doing harm to others has consequences, so doing harm that will in the end cause you harm is not necessarily being true to yourself, so watch it.

To me all followers of Chaos, Discordians, Erisians, Chaos Mages(Magicians or whatever they would like to be called) Subgenii, tacos or anyone else are all part of the same family and there is no need to fight. It seems like some people may not like to play with the Discordians, like they think they are better. That's not very nice _wedgie_

Tentasticle
August 23rd, 2006, 12:18 AM
Which cames first, the Chaos or the Chao?

And does it matter?

Amelserru_halqu
August 23rd, 2006, 12:36 AM
Which cames first, the Chaos or the Chao?

And does it matter?

It's like the chicken and the egg, they occur similtaneously.

Tentasticle
August 23rd, 2006, 01:51 AM
;)

Tentasticle
August 23rd, 2006, 04:32 PM
It's like the chicken and the egg, they occur similtaneously.

And also:

HA! SOPHISTRY! SOPHISM! and ECUMENICAL BULLSHIT! Answer the frickin question - with an Aristotlean Absolute, if you dare :P

Lets Go Bowling
August 25th, 2006, 03:40 AM
Any answer would be a lie, so who really cares?

Lets Go Bowling
August 25th, 2006, 03:50 AM
I think what left a real bad taste about chaos magic(and magic in general) for discordians is,when,in the mid '90's the Vampire:the Masquerade wannabe baby bats and Prince Albert wearing industrial rivet-heads who couldn't cut it as Satanists discovered it.

It went from "using what works,discarding the junk" to "who can out-spookey who".

Thats why Pete Carroll left the IOT,and Chaos groups like the Z-Cluster,Temple Ov Thee Psychic Youth,and a few other fell apart.

It started to become about having an 'evil dark image',Calling up Cthuhlu,and the fun and exploration was forgotten.It became just an excuse to be a self centered materialistic asshole,and I've always thought thats what Satanism was for,not chaos magic.

To them,chaos magic was just another form of black magic,and they totally missed the point of chaos magic.

They forgot that the pioneers of chaos Magic(Hine,Carroll,Sherwin) all stressed the influence discordianism had on forming chaos magic.

I see no reason why chaos magic needs it's own sub-forum here,since chaos magic is a continuation of what the early discordian cabals set forth.

V, you've been using troothpaste I see.

Yep.

All that "darque" scary "boo-hoo" Cthulhu stuff and the rest (such as the "we are even more darque than the left-handers) was just so much drivel. (Not to mention the fact that about 99 percent or the Western Occult community pretty much has no clue what "Left Hand" means nor where it comes from. But I digress...

As for the other writers and such like Fra. Choronzon...some may like them or agree with them, but that doesn't mean they are any good or insightful. And this is why Chaos Magic has largely lost itself as a movement. All the CM people nowadays are still stuck on the lets-spooky-those-people or the whole hog high-magusitis thing. The spirit of play and exploration has been crushed out of it by such 'darque' pretensions. No wonder Pete Carroll basically said "Eff Off" to the whole thing. And Phil Hine is doing Tantra stuff. And others have moved on to other things.

Me personally, won't have much more to do with the whole CM thing either. I should have listened back in the late 80's when they said it was dead.

Infinite Grey
August 25th, 2006, 05:13 AM
I appreciate the sentiments that a great deal of Discordians seem to sure towards Chaos Magic, and I largely agree. Making fun of "Chaos Magicians" is as entertaining as giving Discordians shit... though there are other elements of paganism that are far easier targets... anyways, the whole "spookier than you" and "I summoned a bigger thing than you" attitude is largely why I avoided associating myself with Chaos Magic in name. BUT I have gotten to the point where I do not give a rat's ass what other Chaos type people are doing, they'll just continue to be objects of my scorn (and amusement).

I'll keep my Rule Utilitarianism (with Act outbursts), my hedonism, my Taoism and Zen influences, and play with my deterministic systems, all within the safety of my own little world.

Lets Go Bowling
August 29th, 2006, 02:25 AM
I think I gave up on chaos magic after I found out how much I could pawn the philosopher's stone for.

Tabula Rasa
March 12th, 2007, 12:30 PM
This is why I prefer to do Magick on my own.

ravenscape
March 17th, 2007, 02:36 PM
* puts Condensed Magic in the amazon shopping cart

Interesting thread!

faceperson
March 19th, 2007, 08:22 PM
The law of fives was not an afterthought. Playing with chaos madgjik is like riding your bike without hands - of course you can do it if no one is looking but you do severly increase your chance of just looking like a dumbass.

Tabula Rasa
March 22nd, 2007, 11:20 PM
Nothing like an empty one-liner to keep the conversation rolling.