Can't we all just come to an agreement

[Storm]

I was in the book forum and I read a comment by the author of a book a member was looking for comments on. One member stated she hope that the book did not equate wicca with witchcraft. Rather Wicca=witchcraft. The author replied that he did not in fact seperate the two as witch and witchcraft were derived from the word wicca.

I have to take issue with this. We do so much argueing about this and I think it is time in the general witch community to come to some sort of agreement.

So here is my stance on why I think the two need to be defined seperately.

While it may be true that the word witch and wicca share roots I think they evolved toofar apart to be consider the same. While Wicce may have meant 'wise person' I think it is important to remember that not all wise persons were pagan. Some were in fact christian. They practiced spellcraft, herbcraft and the healing arts. I think the general concenses is that if you practice one, two ror all three of these you can be considered a witch(not all are comfortable with the word witch but that is not the issue I am addressing here. I also am not taking issue with the initiation issue, whether or not you have the right to call yourself a witch based on coven initiation ritual or solitare...not an issue in this post).
Also, you have to look at the fact that Wicca is indeed a religion. And there are those who are wiccan who don't practice spellcraft or herbcraft or healing.

I know there are still holdouts who want to consider them the same but I don't understand why we can't just agree on this one thing. There are so many issues in the Witch wars as it is. These are just words and it seems that most already consider them seperate.

So without being to elaborate

Wicca is a religion that may or may not include the practice of witchcraft.

Witchcraft being the practice of magicks including but not necessarily limited to spellcraft, herbcraft, and/or the healing arts(you know what I mean here...not including MDs....such as incense, oils, brews).

A witch practices witchcraft often but not always with a religious or spiritual context.

And of course magick being the utilisation of universal energies to cause change.

Feel free to elaborate on the definitions. And offer comments on why this would not work.

[Aidron]

Actually, from my own research the word 'wicce' is in fact not where the word Witch or even Wicca came from. Though, it has been years since I looked into this so I'm afraid I can't pull all the info that lead me to this conclusion out of my bum and type it up for ya.

Regardless, I seperate the two. Wicca is a religion, Witchcraft is just that-a craft and practice. If someone wishes to believe that in order to be one you must be the other, that's fine by me. It won't stop me from continuing to cast my spells and disbelieve in such things that are held in high regard to Wiccans. If it makes them content to call me a Wiccan because I am a witch or a phony because I do not ascribe to Wicca yet call myself a witch, more power to them. They had simply better not approach me with these opinions and expect anything beyond being ignored. :hrmm:

[Storm]

If it makes them content to call me a Wiccan because I am a witch or a phony because I do not ascribe to Wicca yet call myself a witch, more power to them. They had simply better not approach me with these opinions and expect anything beyond being ignored. :hrmm:

But, but, but, see.... that's exactly what I'd like to get past. We have so much to argue about already..the fluffy factor...the validity of initiation, eclecticism, etc. Maybe it seems I am fueling this arguement. I am trying to get past it. I don't understand why we can't just say..these definitions work..lets not argue about this anymore.

[teishabee]

I use to have strong views on this and hate to be called wiccan , when Im not.

But whats the point.These terms are only labels in themselves. I do, what I do, what you think I do is a different matter and as long as it doesnt effect my practise, I care not.

[Aidron]

But, but, but, see.... that's exactly what I'd like to get past. We have so much to argue about already..the fluffy factor...the validity of initiation, eclecticism, etc. Maybe it seems I am fueling this arguement. I am trying to get past it. I don't understand why we can't just say..these definitions work..lets not argue about this anymore.


People simply will never agree 100% on everything. That's life. Try not to worry about it too much and if you encounter those you disagree with who insist on beating you down with their "I am right!" snobbery, walk away or beat them back.

[Kadynas]

People simply will never agree 100% on everything. That's life. Try not to worry about it too much and if you encounter those you disagree with who insist on beating you down with their "I am right!" snobbery, walk away or beat them back.
Too true... :)

Personally I've always thought of Wicca as a religion, and witchcraft as a practice that any religion could take part in. But the word witch means so many different things to so many different people that it's pretty much impossible to reach consensus with all of them on one accepted meaning. :)

[MorningDove030202]

Also, you have to look at the fact that Wicca is indeed a religion. And there are those who are wiccan who don't practice spellcraft or herbcraft or healing.


I strongly feel that it is un-Wiccan to not practice magick. However that doesn't mean you have to do spells. Magick is many things, it's ritual, it's casting a circle, it's energy work and visualizations. If someone is aganst practicing anything magickal then I don't feel they are Wiccan or that they can be Wiccan and ignore the practice of magick.

That said this is just my feeling and I as a rule don't go around telling specific people that they are or are not Wiccan. That's just rude. I have faith that people will find the right path eventualy.

Dove

[Regulus]

I've never understood the need for everyone to be together on a subject such as this. If somebody wants to call themselves this or that, I don't particularly care. I know what I am. That’s all that matters. I refuse to engage in silly arguments that only serve to make the pagan community more self injurious. We always seem to beat each other up for stupid politics and validation games. I figure, let people argue over stupid things for the rest of their lives if that’s what suits them. They do so at their own risk and without my participation.

[Shatril]

Well if everyone agreed on everything, there would be no need for opinions! How Dull. We all know that opinions are like A err noses, everyone has one. Much better opportunity for discussion. How fun! The probability that you are going to get a community of over 4000 to agree on one simple fact is about slim to none. Why is it important to you to have 100% consensus on this issue? You know what you believe, and that is what is important. Who gives a rats petotee what anyone else thinks.

Now that my throat chakra has been exercised for today, the buddhist in me thanks you for this opportunity.

Blessed Be

[Shatril]

I've never understood the need for everyone to be together on a subject such as this. If somebody wants to call themselves this or that, I don't particularly care. I know what I am. That’s all that matters. I refuse to engage in silly arguments that only serve to make the pagan community more self injurious. We always seem to beat each other up for stupid politics and validation games. I figure, let people argue over stupid things for the rest of their lives if that’s what suits them. They do so at their own risk and without my participation.

Oh please, you did participate. :bubbles: I like your input, and hope that you choose to continue to participate in discussions. They really are fun. You may even be provided with information that may make a difference to you. It is possible.

[dr_zeus440]

things is, even if the need for all of us to come together existed, what definitions do we decide on? is a wiccan anyone who is self-identified as a wiccan or do you have to be initiated into a gardnerian tradition? is anyone who practices magic a witch, or do you have to specifically practice anglo-saxon folk magic? there is no satisfiable definition that we can all agree to without compromising someones beliefs, or creating a minority of either those who are excluded by the definition or those who do not agree with the definition. besides, doing what you suggest is just another step towards fascism. this is just one of many flaws in language that we have to put up with if we choose to use it as a system of communication.

[RubyRose]

I have to say, regardless what anybody else thinks. To me Wicca and Witchcraft are to completely different things. Though it is hard to completely separate the two, as many authors, and people even throughout the internet believe that they are they are one in the same.
To me, Witchcraft is the pratice of magick. A witch is a person that practices magick, but who could also be Wiccan. Or not, it all depends.
Wicca is a religion or spiritual path (whichever way you'd like to put it).
I suppose in saying that, Witchcraft is too a path, but different from Wicca.
Basically Wicca encompasses a lot more than just magick. Creeds, Redes, Deities, and so forth.
Ah, I never was good with putting up a decent argument for a debatable topic.
Bendithion,
RubyRose

[Xentor]

I'm not wiccan, nor a witch. I'm a healer. I found that everybody tends to use labels differently. When talking, you may find that the other is using the labels in a different way from yours. If that difference is clear enough, you can let it be: understand where their definition is different from yours and perhaps explain where yours is different from theirs. There is no need to agree on the same definition, as long as it is clear where everyone stands.

[Writer_Waif]

I am not (by definition) Wiccan or a Witch. I consider myself a healer.
I also have my own definitions of what magic(k) .. however you choose to spell it is.

We could sit and debate all day on the little things, but what matters most is what YOU feel about yourself and what YOU believe.

Nothing More!!!

I am what I am and THAT is what counts.
:bouncybob

[Gede]

MM~
While Wicce may have meant 'wise person' I think it is important to remember that not all wise persons were pagan. Some were in fact christian. They practiced spellcraft, herbcraft and the healing arts.

Actually, from my own research the word 'wicce' is in fact not where the word Witch or even Wicca came from. Though, it has been years since I looked into this so I'm afraid I can't pull all the info that lead me to this conclusion out of my bum and type it up for ya.

Currently historical etymologists are keener on the word Witch descending from the Indo-European root "Weik". I wrote of this in an article of mine:

The word Witch is said to have its roots in the Indo-European word "Weik" which refers to religion and Magic and therefore the ceremonies that interlink them. Therefore historically, at least in the BC era, Witchcraft and those who practiced it were simply participating in a form of religious tradition which may have been celebrated through simplistic and festive fertility rites and more complicated forms of Ritual performed by talented individuals, i.e. Shamans.

Religion in those days was not so much a propagandist, governmental fuel based on the strict adherence to certain codes of conduct which were believed to be centred on the worship of the Divine, generally endowed with a specific mythology i.e. Jehova of the Old Testament. Therefore Weik's connection with matters of a religious nature is relative to the daily practice of the average person, the peasant, and thus the Cunning Man and Wise Woman was born. Each village was known to have an individual, or several (often at rivalry with one another), who was particularly adept at the art of Witchcraft for the purpose of securing the prosperity of the community, the fecundity of the fields and the closer-to-heart personal requests of the members of the region. Over time, and with the coming of Christianity, it is speculated that these individuals developed a system that incorporated Christian esoterica and traditional occult techniques. Charms calling upon the archangels and rituals invoking the name of the Holy Trinity were common among these folk. It is also known that the cunning folk were present in both towns and rural areas, though the lesser-known "Charmer" (an individual whose Magickal skills comprised of a singular technique and field of expertise i.e. Love Magick) were most common in rural areas. The cunning folk are not predisposed to a particular faith tradition and are generally open to the variety of cultural legacies in their practice. These are the Witches in the most traditional sense of the word. An execution of an innate skill that is considered a means of convenient income, a job, rather than a spiritual path in and of itself, though it can often carry such overtones.

I also personally see Wicca and Witchcraft as two distinct things that while being obviously connected, are not naturally complementary unless of course personal circumstance inclines it to be so. In my same article I wrote the following about Witchcraft and Wicca:

By conventional definition Witchcraft is the ability to harness seemingly "supernatural" forces and bend natural principles in order to achieve a goal, usually immoral and selfish. However this traditional interpretation has little to do with the truth as expressed by the practitioners of Witchcraft today. Witchcraft has been described as a skill, a philosophy, a way of life and a religion. However, in essence the most suitable definition of Witchcraft is as a way of life; that of attuning to the natural world and developing a relationship with the spiritual flow of life's energy, and working with it to manifest desire. Nowadays Witchcraft is a spiritual pursuit that embodies various Pagan practices and customs that assist the individual in living a life of respect for Mother Earth, her creatures and the Self. However even that statement is dancing dangerously on the edge of unanimity, as Witchcraft is a decentralized and autonomous practice that, by its nature, evolves and changes in order to suit the diversity of personality...

...What can be assessed is that Gardner created a working and accessible system which he called 'Wica' (now 'Wicca') by examining the commonalities in the religious experiences of the Neolithic peoples of Western Europe, Eastern ethics and spiritual disciplines (meditation), occult fraternities and organizations such as the New Golden Dawn and the Rosicrucians and the various medieval Gnostic groups. While he professed that Wica had direct links with an ancient past and probably sincerely believed this, the truth is that Wica comprises a multitude of cultural and spiritual systems that for lack of a better term have been equated with Witchcraft.

In truth Wicca, as it is spelt today, is a religious attitude that involves harnessing the Magical principles of Witchcraft to further attune the individual to both the sacred mysteries of Initiation and the keen diversity of the natural world. It is a religion of devotion, training, occult tenets and celebration of the Old Gods and their kingdom, the wilderness of Earth.

Hope the long-windedness of this post didn't put you off ;)

Namaste, Gede...

[Calen]

Too true... :)

Personally I've always thought of Wicca as a religion, and witchcraft as a practice that any religion could take part in. But the word witch means so many different things to so many different people that it's pretty much impossible to reach consensus with all of them on one accepted meaning. :)

Yes, that!
Before I'd come on MW, I might have answered differently, but now, I've encountered a lot of people who practice witchcraft who are not Wiccan. I always differentiate between the two, just to be clear.

[Elfa Wylde]

eh.. who cares? I'm not trying to be apathetic... It's just kind of the attitude I've been having lately...
I'm starting to get what the person who started that one thread (very precise aren't i? lol) about hating witches and why I must ahve sounded dumb when i asked "what fighting."

It's true... pagans all too often gripe about christians telling us how and where we're wrong then we turn around and do it to eachother... i've done it too i think.... gotta keep telling ourselves:what's rigth for us isn't always right for anyone else. They're on the path that's right for them. .... no matter how stupid is seems to us...:

Two years ago, I stumbled into a conversation at a Pagan Pride festival... a small group was gossiping about another small coven where the people feel they are Decended from Elves (why not? some are decended from goblins too and others) and like to wear prosthetic Elf Ears at their rituals.
Then i found out that the ONE person not saying anything was one of the members of the elf coven... she just stood there... like she was afraid to say a word... i got this look from her... and.. well... i spoke up. I told that little snotty group that It was conversations like that that made is look no better than the other religions that "we" complain about.... and that I also believed I carried elfin blood in my veins.. and asked them what they had to say about that... when no one said anything I asked the woman (the one in the elf coven) what she thought... it opened it up for her to stand up for herself with a little back up. She got a lot of apologies afterward... and little did i know.. i had indirectly told off a druid priest.... who then went on be become my teacher for a while.
Do i have a big mouth? yes i do. I gotta say what i gotta say. did my thought train get derailed? maybe... but if you think about it... it's not so far off track.

[OKmagnolia]

To be perfectly honest about it I myself thought of them as synomanous until only a few days ago. I was researching some of the different trads for another forum that I am a member of and one of the trads I was researching was witchcraft. One of the articles that helped me write my article was wrote by a Traditional Witch and in there she stated very plainly that in fact the two are not synomanous. While they may share a few similarities, but are none the less vastly different. Matters of fact here is the link to this site.

http://www.geocities.com/echo879/

[Pandoras]

I think at one point, the terms Wicca and Witchcraft (with a capital W) were synonymous - Witchcraft being the practice of Wicca. But I agree with those who've said that the two terms have evolved into having different meanings.

I don't see how a person can be Wiccan and not be a witch, since magic is more than just spells. But I think it's clear that not all witches are Wiccans. I'm a Pagan Witch, but I'm not Wiccan. This is how I break it down...All Baptists are Christians, but not all Christians are Baptists.

[Romani Vixen]

I am a Witch... I'm not Wiccan, but Pagan. If the question comes up I explain that 'some people may say..." but to do so excludes those who are not Wiccan by faith, but something else, yet still practice the magical arts.