Satanism and Paganism

[vocis noctis]

I remember there was a little discussion somewhere about Satanists being Pagans or not. I've found this document (www.ukpagans.com) and I thought I'd share it, but since I can't find the original thread I decided to make a new one.


Q: Do you believe in Satan? Is Satanism a Pagan Religion?
A: This is an interesting question. No, Pagans don't believe in Satan as he is a purely Christian invention and as we are not Christians he does not appear in our pantheons.
Some Satanist claim that they are Pagans, but whether they mean this simply as being followers of a polytheistic religion or as being a minor religion under the umbrella term of Paganism is unclear - certainly most Pagans would not recognise them as such, partly because they worship a deity unknown to us and also because they are seen to cause intentional harm to others.

[Earth Walker]

The devil, poor thing, is a christian invention, not Pagan.
The devil was derived from the Pagan matyr Pan and changed
into evil.
Pagans do not believe in the "devil" ---- Pagans are not Satanists,
and Satanists are not Pagans.

[vocis noctis]

I once read "The Satanic Bible" by Anton Szandor LaVey. It's more of a humerous book than a book to read and live like.

[slvr_phoenix]

**shrug**

Well, by common definition, anything not Christian is Pagan. Hinduism is Pagan. Budhism is Pagan. Wicca is Pagan. Druidism is Pagan. Shamanism is Pagan. Taoism is Pagan. New-Ageism is Pagan. Etc., etc., etc. Heck, they probably even claim that Judaism is Pagan. (Though I'm not entirely sure on that one. Same god, different ending ... tough call.) Even Atheism is Pagan.

So by that definition, is Satanism Pagan?

Well, yeah.

Of course, is that OUR definition of Pagan? Sometimes yes; sometimes no. That's just the definition that the majority hold to. And since the majority hold that, then for the majority, Satanism is Pagan.

We could always reclaim it and redefine it though, and thus change the majority's view.

Until then though, the question shouldn't be, "IS Satanism Pagan?", because it depends entirely upon a very poorly-defined point-of-view.

Instead the question should be, "Do your views see Satanism as Pagan?" That way we admit that we understand not everyone sees it the same way, and we are giving an answer as how we see it, not as the only way it is and ever could be.

[slvr_phoenix]

Oh, and here's a slightly-related thought to mull over.

Magick and affirmations primarily hold the power that what we believe can become reality if we truely believe and enough energy is put into that belief.

How many people actively believe in Satan with a strong conviction?

How many people are there to actually counter that belief, believing instead that Satan doesn't exist, with a strong conviction?

Just how much energy do those that don't believe in Satan put into that belief? And just how much energy do those that do believe in him put into their belief?

If so much more energy goes into the belief of Satan than into the non-belief of Satan, then doesn't it stand to reason that this belief alone could be responsible for creating him and making him real, even if he hadn't always existed?

[voice]

It's very much part and parcel with my own system of thought that what we pray to, focus energy toward, give energy to, etc. becomes real on some plane of existance.

Does Satan exist? Does Aradia? Does Christ?

Interesting to consider, especially in this context.

For those who believe, the answer is obviously yes. For those who fear Satan (or for that matter, Aradia or Christ) the answer is also yes.

Here's another thought...the "common" use of the word "Pagan" is "earth centered spiritual person". However, the actually definition is "Anything that isn't based in Judeo-Christianity"

According to both definitions, Satanism is not Pagan, it's Judeo-Christian. It is based upon the Christian cosmology and mythic cycle. It embraces 'dieties' known to belong to Judeo-Christianity. It is not an earth centered religion but an ego centered one.

I suppose we must all form our own opinions based on what knowledge or understanding we have managed to glean from our studies, but in my opinion, Satanism is a Christian offshoot, and unrelated to Paganism.


Voice

[Lucidia]

i'm only gonna say this once. i usually miss the "satanist" arguments.

Satanists DON'T believe in Satan. Satanists do not WORSHIP satan.

You need to look at this debate from the viewpoint of someone who is very AGAINST living a life ruled by a Never-present god, constantly in fear of being sent to "hell", constantly guilty for following their instincts....

Then take into account, that "Satan" (or lucifer, or the devil, or whatever you want to call him depending on where in the bible he comes up), was god's "Adversary" or "accuser".

Satanists are, for the most part, living a live that is very opposite, spiritually, from mainstream christianity's beliefs.

Power comes from within, not from a god/goddess/diety/powersource outside of the self.

The worst "sin" is merely to do something that makes you feel guilty. As a human with free will, you make your own laws and commandments. You have a concience, that that will guide you, rather than forcing yourself to live unnatrually to please someone who isn't even able to show his face.

I may be a bit off on this, but I know quite well that what Anton LaVey was doing, by using Satan as his focus, was trying to make the strongest contrast to christianity as he could.

Indeed, the satanic bible is VERY humorous... but ONLY If you have the right sense of humor. I know lots of people that would be offended.

Note, that in a recent edition of the Village Voice (www.villagevoice.com), there was an article, which featured an informational poll's results, asking people what they felt was missing from their religion, or what should be an added aspect of the religions they are aware of.

the ONLY religion that was listed that met ALL the criteria that people expressed would form the "perfect" or "ideal" religion...

was Satanism.

Satanists don't judge you based on lifestyle preferences (gay, bi, hetero, trannies, tattooed and peirced up freaks, etc). They simply do not stand for... well... i suppose the best way to put it.. is that they do not like "weak" people (people who can't live for themselves, people with uncontrolled dependencies that CAN be controlled.... basically having NO respect for yourself.... )

Satanists do not worship satan. In my opinion, they're references to satan are they're way of directly showing their opposition to living a life that is subjugated by a god.

And mind you, Satanists don't go around telling other people that they should convert to satanism, they dont' knock on your door selling books.

And they don't sacrafice babies.

Is Satanism pagan? Perhaps it can be considered so.

It is CERTAINLY NOT related to Christianity other than using the name of Satan to show it's strong differences in regard to how you live your life.... or even better to say... WHO rules your life.

You DO NOT have to recognize, believe in, or acknowledge the existence of the Christian "god" or "satan" in order to be a satanist.

Okay well that's enough ranting for me.

Let's keep this convo clean... I've seen some nasty argument start in satanism threads... though i don't know why.

[Lucidia]

As a side note...

My husband is a Satanic Priest, so I would suggest that anyone thinking they know MORE about this than I do, unless you are ALSO a member of either the CoS or the FCoS, to please not try and argue with me.

There are things about Satanism that you just won't understand unless you actually were a part of it. There are plenty of things i don't know. Reading the satanic bible won't make you an expert either. There are many other things you'd have to read and learn before you could really say you fully understood satanism.

BUT...

State your opinion... FINE. Just no arguments. I don't come here to argue, and for the most part, watching everyone else argue will be the reason i ultimately leave (as for now, i'm simply taking it "easy"... cause i'm fed up with all of the Ickyness i see).

(and by arguments, i dont' mean stating opinions that are in opposition to mine.. i mean things like... DIRECTLY telling me that i'm wrong, or whatnot, in order to get some kind of heated response. I WILL ignore you. I've already explained the ONLY things that this thread even pertains to, and refuse to go any further into this sillyness)

But Satanists DO NOT worship, or even believe in god, jesus, or their so called adversary Satan.

And i'm personally tired of everyone trying to stick Satanists into some sick relationship with Christians.

They are direct opposites for the most part.

I recommend reading the Satanic bible. it's pretty... interesting.

Mind you, i'm still not a satanist, i'm just me. I just notice people talk about it, and they dont' know anything other than... "well.. they are called satanists so they must believe in satan, and well. uhh... satan is from christianity so i suppose satanists must therefore believe in the christian myths/etc".

I once was mistaken like that was well. I was wrong, and I'm just trying to save everyone here, many of whom don't know a THING about satanism, the trouble of arguing about it, when a Satanist themselves wouldn't even bother to argue with you about it. They'd probably just laugh.

Pretty strong of them, I think. After all, most "pagans" i know get REALLY offended when someone misrepresents their religion.

[mol]

Definitions, labels, names...

:rolleyes:

[Illuminatus]

From your description, Satanism sounds a lot like Atheism, except with a lot of pseudo-superstitious trappings.

- Illuminatus!

[Semele]

Originally posted by Lucidia
As a side note...

My husband is a Satanic Priest, so I would suggest that anyone thinking they know MORE about this than I do, unless you are ALSO a member of either the CoS or the FCoS, to please not try and argue with me.

(and by arguments, i dont' mean stating opinions that are in opposition to mine.. i mean things like... DIRECTLY telling me that i'm wrong, or whatnot, in order to get some kind of heated response.


Uh...ok, anyone else see a little contadiction in these statements? Seems to me that you just told us that if we think we know more than you and aren't a member of these groups, to give it up. I will be the first to admit that I know nothing about Satanism. But I guess you already made that point didn't you.

I guess it could be confusing to non-satanists that they don't worship satan....what does a name mean anyway?

Lucidia, I am in no way trying to attack you. I just find it interesting that you are complaining about folks mis-interpretting things and thinking they know all, and then you give the impression that you are more of an authority than anyone here.

[Lucidia]

semele-

what bothers me, is that people start making statements about satanism, when they have niether read the books, met one in person, or been one themselves.

i live with one. I don't know ALL the details, but he's given me a very thourough explaination of this beliefs. after all, he is my husband and i don't particularly relish the idea of not knowing what my 'life mate" believes.

no, i'm not the all knowing expert on satanism.

But at least I can honestly say that i KNOW they don't worship satan, and make very vague assumptions based on the use of the word "satan" in their nomenclature.

I've just seen a few bits and peices of the ultra-conflicts that start whenever this subject comes up.

I am SO VERY TIRED of huge arguments. It's hard to believe that this community is peace loving or harmonious in the least from recent observations.

I know i seemed to contradict myself a bit, but to clear it up, as I hope i can, it was just trying to say, that they're religion is very quiet. They don't run around explaining it to random people walking down the street (very unlike the insane jesus freaks that harrass my husband daily because he wears big pointy rings and death metal band t-shirts, so he's evil.. and therefore a target). I didn't know much at all about it until i actually met a few and had some very deep involved conversations with them.

the biggest, and easiest misconception to arrive at, is to assume they worship satan.

They concepts behind their religion are very simple, unfortunately though, many people just don't seem to grasp the concept of choosing to follow themselves rather than a god.

Oh well.

[Semele]

Thanks for clearing that up Lucidia. I guess my point is that there are many people who call themselves satanists who actually do worship satan. No two believers of any system feel exactly the same...thank the Gods. I make no pretentions to understand anything other than my own path, and at times I don't even understand that!!:cool:

I think a lot of folks who don't know anything about satanism make their assumptions based on the name itself. It can be quite confusing. I can understand your frustration though. In fact I often get frustrated by other's views of my path. But in the end, it only matters that we each understand our own path. I really don't have time or energy to understand everyone else's path. Which is why I don't try to participate in a lot of discussions here. I only commented on this one because I thought that perhaps you misunderstood what some were saying. They were stating how they view satanism as either pagan or not. This coming from the little understanding they have on the topic. I don't think anyone was necessarily trying to state as a fact that satanists worship satan, just whether they thought it was considered pagan. True some stated that it was an offshoot from Christianity, but I have been told the same thing regarding my path and just shake my head.

[Lucidia]

Being that there are always a multitude of ways to explain a certain belief, there are different opinions.

But Satanism itself hasn't spilt in TOO many directions.

There are a bunch of people that say they are satanists, but they probably aren't.

I copied this peice of text from the FCoS website. After reading over it, i realizsed that most of the FAQ on their website is confusingly stated, so i looked for something rather direct in order to support my opinion.


Are Satanists the same as "devil worshippers"?No! The difference between Satanism and devil worship is simple;

Devil worshippers are nothing more than wannabe renegade Christians still drowning in the belief that to be a Satanist they must use dogma that is the reverse of Christian belief. Satanist are free thinkers, moving forward spiritually through self-exploration and spiritual stimulation. Strictly speaking, a devil worshipper is someone who worships evil as a moral absolute. The Satanist does not recognize "good and evil" per se - only cause and effect (yin/yang).

If you come here searching for a new set of rules to contradict your parent religion, we suggest you look elsewhere. Why? Because Satanists boast of Luciferian pride; the ability to contradict authority... ANY authority. If you still feel lost and crave dogma to set your moral compass, then by all means become a pseudo- Satanist or devil-worshiper. Also know that you must never question your betters! Stratification is the law by which the devil worshiper abides and servitude is their portion. Satanists are strongly opposed to devil worship and hierarchal systems which seek to enslave the spirit.



let me clarify one other point.

Although satanists do not directly "worship" satan or any other diety, they are "free thinkers", and therefore each one of them can hold his own opinion about the existence of satan or god or any other diety for that matter without somehow breaking their own "rules".

this next statement is a bit confusing, as it can easily be taken to mean "yes, we worship/acknoledge satan", but if you think about it, and read between the lines, they certainly don't say that, and they in reality make a huge point about this whole god/satan thing.

(keep in mind that this is NOT the church founded by LaVey, but the self proclaimed First Church of Satan, and i will get comparitive materials from the LaVey CoS to further allow you to read up on this)


Does Satan really exist?
Satanists argue over the existence/non-existence of Satan as an entity. Our position is that the fight should not be about whether or not you have a relationship with a real or imagined entity. The argument or discussion should be about whether your belief system is dogmatic or non-dogmatic. Understand that in a universe of relatives there are no absolute truths, however there are present-day unconfirmed realities due to a lack of empirical evidence. What you will read in this FAQ is Lord Egan's interpretation of those realities - they need not be yours! Satanism has always been a precursor to the free thought movement; we see no reason why this should change. We shall continue to "rend the rusty padlocks and chains of dead custom that always prevent healthy expansion."

The Satanist defines Satan the same way a Hindu defines Vishnu, or a Buddhist defines the Gohonzon, or a Moslem defines Allah. Satan represents God or Nature. Most Christians we've spoken to don't even know the name of their god (Jehovah or "Yahweh"), but consider themselves qualified to debate religious issues.

Islamic fundamentalists and Christians define themselves as monotheists, but practice dualism; they imagine a devil opposed to the creator, but creation cannot be divided against itself. If the devil physically exists, then God exists. If God created Satan, then God is Satan. You cannot create something unless it is a manifestation of your own will. How can you make a computer if you don't know how? You would have to base it on knowledge of that computer, or in this case, God's knowledge of "evil". So, God is evil. If God created hell, he'd have to know about eternal torment, meaning God is tormented. If God created humans, and humans are imperfect, God is imperfect. If I claim I am a perfect computer programmer, and I make a program that doesn't work right, I am not a perfect computer programmer. Christians blind to reason should refer to Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

[Lucidia]

after reviewing a bunch of stuff on the LaVey inspired site, which has much less in depth discussion on the matter of beliefs, i will post the following. Take it as you like.

Most of my opinions are based on what my husband has explained to me. He told me, for the most part, that the lavey stuff is a beginning, but there is a lot more to it, and that the CoS doesn't really have the same system that the FCoS does. They share many of the ideals, but there are a few differences here and there.

The following is the "core" set of "rules" that are posted at www.churchofsatan.com (the lavey one).

The Nine Satanic Statements (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/NineStatements.html)

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Eleven.html)

The Nine Satanic Sins (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Sins.html)

Pentagonal Revisionism (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/PentRev.html)

These pages aren't too long. I don't particularly like the .com site after reading much of the info at the .org one

The First Church of Satan's website is at www.churchofsatan.org
and is where i found the quotes in the other post before this one.

I just want people to know a bit more about this before going on some tirade about how satanists are or aren't pagan because of this or that.

My opinion: Satanists probably don't care. being considered Pagan is simply another label, and i doubt they need any more labels.

[Swanspirit]

by any name..... be it christian, pagan , satanist , and then passionately proclaiming that there is no such entity or namesake.....can be problematic ..... and lead to confusion.
Just substitute the word christian in what you said .... My husband is a "christian" priest" but he doesnt worship christ in any form ??? My husband is a pagan priest but he doesnt have pagan deities? Does seem more than a little bit contradictory........so there is the problem with "labels" and language .......
My reference to satan is what I learned in the catholic church , and in the general fund of knowledge available at large in the world and the imagery ,liturgy and literature concerning said entity is extensive , and personally ..... I enjoyed Dante for the poetry and the imagery :>. The bank of information on "Satan" , the devil, or whatever is called the entity which represents evil is far larger than that which applies to witches .....even pagans and heretics
receive short shrift when compared with the amount of information and exhorations against that persona ...... heck , witches could even blame what they did on him LOL , everyone can ..... the great scapegoat ......and we also know that he is derived from some early pagan gods as well or at least picked up some of their characteristics or attributes.
The GREAT WHORE OF BABYLON in the bible is none other than the GREAT GODDESS herself....characterisations of evil have been made on other belief systems throughout history , but few so totally embraced and polarised as satan.
I think the main point here is that some pagans in general are attempting to distance themselves from the stereotypes and accusations of evil -DOING ....... that come from SOME christian elements wherein they are accused of being satan worshippers, and thus assumed to be evil, and DO evil things .....
Because to have as the TITLE Of a belief system an entity that represents the embodiment of evil presents a very negative characterisation of anyones belief system,to those that hold those beliefs ...... as satanists experience , I am sure . I dont pretend to understand why anyone would choose what is a reactionary term, derived from a Christian entity, but then that isnt my place or my job.
I know that the terms I choose are removed from that representational framework,not very far removed , but removed.. and I like it that way :> .
"Witches" have made a a great effort to change the meaning of the word away from something that was thought to be "evil", and even in mainstream thought there are some changes ...... ( thank you all those silly TV programs and movies ) but really that effort is aimed more at being known for what we really DO rather than the simple word change , as the focus is on the BEHAVIORS ... not the WORD. So I am happy to think ;contradictory tho it may be , that SOME satanists dont worship Satan.
Love and Light
Swannie:shift:

[Earth Walker]

I was introduced to John, one of our tenants, as a fellow Pagan,
and, girl-oh-girl, did we ever get an earful!:eek:

John is a satanist, and he dislikes Pagans even more than he
dislikes christians, et al

You get the point.

[Lucidia]

mystique, i'm sorry to hear that you had that experience.

but i just want to clarify, before this becomes a "i dont' think we should consider satanists pagans because they are mean horrible hate filled people" thread...

not all satanists are so bitter towards other religions and paths.

I think part of the problem is, no matter how much people SAY they will repspect your religion, people can't get past the "name" with satanists. I'm sure Satanists hate being blasted by christians just as much as they hate when all of the non-christians that don't know much about them and end up saying things are are just as bad (like reinforcing untrue statements like "satanists aren't pagan because they worship the devil").

Satanists have a belief system that is partially based on all the things that satan represents.. all the so called 'evil' things, although, if your read the bible, much of what satan said and did was quite logical.

He questioned authority. Is that SO evil? Well thats pretty much why he ended up getting "punished" by "god" anyway.

Most satanists aren't going to tell you about their religion. In fact, it's part of their religion NOT to go around spouting about it. It's probably why no one here is a satanist. (haven't seen too many people popping up to say "hey i'm a satanist" as of late...)

They don't want or need your approval to continue on their merry satanic path.

My husband refuses to pay much attention to my activities on this board. But, He doesn't "hate" or "dislike" people based on their beliefs. But i'm pretty sure that satanists probably don't belong in the "pagan" catagory based on TODAY'S definition (as the actual definition would encompass ALL non-judeo-christian belief systems, whereas today's modern term usually only refer to systems like wicca or druidic type beliefs).

And i can't stress this point enough... but not everyone who SAYS they are a satanist actually are.

I'm sure everyone here has run across their fair share of "Hi, i just saw the Craft and so like now i'm a witch" people.

Every religion has them. Most of them hardly know a thing about the religion they claim to follow. They are doing it because it's 'cool' or 'popular' or in some cases to gain attention by being blantantly opposed to the "system"

Some people also start getting interested in satanism, because they have been scorned by mainstream religion, and found "pagan" religions not to suit their needs, so they cling to the most "opposite" thing they can find in comparison to christianity, etc. Definitely not the way to go about things.

Satan was portrayed as a "free thinker" (by not blindly following "god"). Therefore, in following the example of Satan (who MAY or MAY NOT exist, just like jesus, buddha, etc), Satanists are free thinkers who strive to no longer be supressed and forced to act and think a certain way, when we each have free will that can be expressed in any way we see fit. Becoming a satanist because you were "scorned" by christianity, is like using your religion to get some kind of silent revenge. this isn't free thinking anymore, because your mind is now becoming clouded with rage and illogical vengeance. These people are already acting irrationally, and it's no surprise that they hate everyone and express things in a very unpleasant manner.

many religions have "paths" and "rules" and "guidelines" that go beyond the point of suggestions that will lead to general contentment with yourself and your life. Many religions carry doctrines of severe punishment for breaking certain "laws", which could be anything from being permanently removed from the religion itself, losing favor in the eyes of your fellow member and the organization itself, to the prospect of an eternity of torture in "hell".

Many religions talk about how 'open minded' they are, but given the chance, they will stomp all over any other religion that might not agree with them.

In fact, religion is a pretty messed up thing in a lot of cases. It causes wars, death, persecution, intolerance, pain, suffering, tears, and a whole host of things.

When was the last time a SATANIST started a war with some other religion? I dont' personally recall any such event.

Many of you all follow paths where your beliefs have been persecuted against for years, decades, centuries...

All for nothing.

What have satanists done wrong? They were different.

People fear what they do not understand. They hate what is different.

Being hated and feared when you have done NOTHING wrong, is usually enough to make the average person bitter.

oh well sorry i'm ranting and getting OT.

[Earth Walker]

I didn't mean to infer that all satanists are like John.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[Lucidia]

it's okay hon, i didn't think you did.

i just want to make sure people don't get things misconstrued like they often do with threads like this.

like i said. people fear what they do not understand. people hate what they fear.

[Myst]

According to the dictionary I see Pagan means one who is not Christian, Muslim, or Jew. This is the definition I prefer to go by since Pagan religions vary so widely and cannot be summarily categorized in any way. Not only does the "we don't believe in Satan" argument ignore what Satanism really is, I believe Satan exists even just as a thoughtform and archetype, and I am most definitely Pagan.

So yes, without ruffling any feathers or starting any fights or causing anyone to get upset, I believe it is Paganism. :rolleyes:

[Lucidia]

well, i find it funny.

believing, or not believing, in a diety, or anti-diety, has NOTHING to do with satanism at all.

you can be a satanist and believe that satan exists, but if you are a satanist, then you don't CARE that he exists, because you yourself are in charge of your life and whatnot.


Not only does the "we don't believe in Satan" argument ignore what Satanism really is, I believe Satan exists even just as a thoughtform and archetype, and I am most definitely Pagan.

well, exactly. which is why i posted some stuff on what satanists follow, cause i figure that simply attempting to explain that satanism is not the worship of satan, and therefore shoudln't be so directly tied to christianity simply because it makes reference to one of it's myths/legends/characters/angels/etc., isn't really explaining why it's pagan or not. although it does make a point about it not being judeo-christian.

I figure if a bunch of non-satanists are going to argue about whether satanism is pagan or not, they should at least have the resources to try and make that decision.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Well, ME myself WAS here for our last discussion on this. And I learned quite a bit. But never got my question answered without it relating to the whole of everyone. Why is it, that Satanists CALL themselves SATANISTS if they do not even believe in Satan??? They leave themselves open for MORE ridicule then they would normally get. And I hear people get angry when people think that it is a Christian base-off. CAn you really blame them??? I mean, they probably have only heard THE WORST stories about it, and just the title S-A-T-A-NISM, is a christian deity no? So ofcourse they probably would be confused. Yes they could have taken time to research before having a discussion on it, but for the people who haven't. Please I ask you to bear with them first. Before, yelling at them because you think they are ignorant or such.


Oh yes and my question, I know that all people get ridicule for what they believe at one time or another. That is not what I am asking for, I am asking why would they call themselves something they DONT believe in. Thank you for your time

[MistOfTheSea86]

This thread got filled up quick, looks like some of my questions may have been answered.:Dlol. But if you could, refer me to where the answers may be on the thread???:) Thank you once more

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by Mystique
The devil was derived from the Pagan matyr Pan and changed
into evil.
.

No.

[Amethyst Rose]

I've heard it the same way as Mystique has said.... I believe I read it somewhere....
Anyway.... I'm curious, EW..... this question goes out to everyone, not just ew, by the way.....

Where did the devil come from?? I know there are the myths, both Christian and otherwise, but is there a historical basis, such as is represented in Buckland's book of Witchcraft (the idea that Mystique presented). Or is it just "myth"?

[Amethyst Rose]

I feel like I'm treading on thin ice, with my last statement. I'm going to TRY to clarify. Sorry in advance if I fail miserably. :D

What I mean was, is there a time in history where historians say that the devil came into literature at such and such a point? In reference to all the different religious literature of the past? Or has he always been there?

Am I making sense?

[Myst]

Originally posted by Amethyst Rose
I've heard it the same way as Mystique has said.... I believe I read it somewhere....
Anyway.... I'm curious, EW..... this question goes out to everyone, not just ew, by the way.....

Where did the devil come from?? I know there are the myths, both Christian and otherwise, but is there a historical basis, such as is represented in Buckland's book of Witchcraft (the idea that Mystique presented). Or is it just "myth"?

I think you mean EP, not EW :)

And it depends on who you ask. Mystique and EP obviously have differing opinions on that matter. I have my own opinions too. So, depends on who you ask. I think you have to decide that one for yourself :)

[Lucidia]

Originally posted by MistOfTheSea86
Well, ME myself WAS here for our last discussion on this. And I learned quite a bit. But never got my question answered without it relating to the whole of everyone. Why is it, that Satanists CALL themselves SATANISTS if they do not even believe in Satan??? They leave themselves open for MORE ridicule then they would normally get. And I hear people get angry when people think that it is a Christian base-off. CAn you really blame them??? I mean, they probably have only heard THE WORST stories about it, and just the title S-A-T-A-NISM, is a christian deity no? So ofcourse they probably would be confused. Yes they could have taken time to research before having a discussion on it, but for the people who haven't. Please I ask you to bear with them first. Before, yelling at them because you think they are ignorant or such.


Oh yes and my question, I know that all people get ridicule for what they believe at one time or another. That is not what I am asking for, I am asking why would they call themselves something they DONT believe in. Thank you for your time

They don't worship a dieity that they believe to be satan.

They follow the example set out by what "satan" did. Whether there is really a "satan" is another issue entirely.

The actions that "satan" took against "god" is what it all comes down to. It's about relying on your own self for power, not praying to a god. Satan rebelled against "god", who was seeking to impose his will upon all of creation, and "satan" chose not to follow him. He chose to live his own life, not controlled by this "god".

[MistOfTheSea86]

Thanks alot Lucidia:D:thumbsup:

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Lucidia


They don't worship a dieity that they believe to be satan.

They follow the example set out by what "satan" did. Whether there is really a "satan" is another issue entirely.

The actions that "satan" took against "god" is what it all comes down to. It's about relying on your own self for power, not praying to a god. Satan rebelled against "god", who was seeking to impose his will upon all of creation, and "satan" chose not to follow him. He chose to live his own life, not controlled by this "god".

So... IT would kind of be A branch off then no?

[Lucidia]

it's not a branch off of anything.

they happened to use a chrisitan "diety" for their "role model" (for lack of a better word).

they don't depend on "satan", they don't "rely" on him. they don't need him.

Anyone who historically, or mythologically, did the same as he did would be just as good as an example.

I'm sure there were people that had the same way of thinking WAY before jesus even supposedly existed.

If chistianity had never been, someone, somewhere would still have felt the need to follow themselves, rather than bend under the will of a "god" or "diety".

Like i said, people can't get past the name. If your name meant "poopieface", does that mean that you MUST therefore be a poopieface? No, it's just a name. A name can have many meanings.

Satanists follow in the footsteps of Satan, who may, or may not, have been real. People often times idolize fictional characters.

If there is no god or satan, someone made them up. In that case, then they'd be following the wisdom of THAT person whom created "satan", but they still wouldnt' be "worshiping" that person.

Satanists to not necesarily 'Hate' or fight against, or claim to be the advesaries of christians. They don't care. They aren't satanists because they are fighting some invisible war against jesus or something. God and jesus and all that mean NOTHING to them.

They are just following the example that said character in said possibly fictional book displayed in questioning authority and choosing to be free willed.

[MystyPines]

Hi Lucidia!

I have a question, what type of holidays do Satanists celebrate? I heard that they celebrate their birthdays and Oct. 31, both as holidays? Is this true? Are there other days they celebrate?

Thanks!

[EasternPriest]

Even Satanism cannot be narrowly defined. There are also Satanists and Satanic churches who "worship" Satan. And they do pray to him and rely on his power.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Lucidia
Satanists to not necesarily 'Hate' or fight against, or claim to be the advesaries of christians. They don't care. They aren't satanists because they are fighting some invisible war against jesus or something. God and jesus and all that mean NOTHING to them.


Now I'm confused. First you say their point is to go against following deities (specifically Christianity, altho now to be sure other religions as well) and their teachings and now you say the basis and deities of those teachings meant nothing to them?? They thrive on indivuduality and not relying on deities, yet then those deities mean nothing to them?

Yup, I'm confused.

[mol]

I am sure most of you are tired of me popping in and saying this on a lot of conversations but I will say it again...

Labels..

:rolleyes:

[Qabalarina]

YEs, but thats just it, Mol. Words carry power. Labels carry power.

Don't think for a second that LaVey didn't know what he was doing when he named this religion "Satanism". There are plenty of other words he coould have used to define his religion. HE purposefully choose a very loaded word that would cause distrubing reactions. He loved the shock value.

So, yeah, I can see why people get bent out of shape about the word Satansim. NO, it doesn't hav anything to do with the worship of Satan in its most classis sense, but yes, it is going to carry with it connotations of the Christian Satan because LaVey wanted it to. If Satanists of today truly have a problem with their religion being linked to images of the Horned Devil of CHristianity, then I sympathize with that, but that's the fault of the label LAVey purposefully chose.

And before someone asks, I don't think this is in any way the same as someone reclaiming the the word "witch". That particular word developed negative connotations overtime--in its original meaning, there was nothing freftul or wicked about it. THe word Satansimm, however, was derived from a figure out Evil at the outset. THere is nothing t oreclaim. The images associated with Satan are ingrained into the word, and always have been.

It's all well and good that Satanis might be little more than a hedonistic, solipsistic religion that glorifies the self that has nothing to do with the actual praise or glory of Satan. THat's fine, and I understand and accept that. However at the same time, Satanists have to realize that they've adopted a loaded term from the outset, and its too late go back and undo that now.

[Fawn]

Um no dear obviously you don't understand it then maybe from an organized religious method of thinking but not from a Satanist's or any other pagan who sees it for what it is.
Satan did not and never existed. Period. Christian churches made him up--they used "Pan"; the Horned Lord: any other pagan name for our God as their 'devil.'

History clarifies this---check out the Old Religion it was here first.
Then check into the the 'Crusades" maybe that might help some people to get it right--don't want to do that research---then try asking a History major about it.


No wonder the few Satanists who were trying to help educate those who did wish to understand abandonede this thread.;)

[Myst]

Mol. I agree.

Otherwise, here we go claiming Christianity is just a ripoff off Paganism again, which as I can imagine will tick off a few of our non Pagan friends here at MW. History does not prove that Witches existed before Christianity in the way we now know them, period, nor does it prove that Christianity came from Paganism. The crusades were about Muslims, Jews, and Christians, not Satanists... as far as I can tell :)


So since their word has always had connotations of evil and ours only gained them in years passed, they should expect to be persecuted and we (as other Pagans) should not? Incidentally Satan comes from the Hebrew word meaning adversary, to accuse, or act as adversary. So the word was *not* inherently meant to label an evil creature in the first place, just like Pagan and Witch weren't.

Don't tell me Satan never existed, period. To suggest you know which deities and demons exist and don't and have is to suggest you know that which no one does, which is clearly folly in and of itself.

[Qabalarina]

? Incidentally Satan comes from the Hebrew word meaning adversary, to accuse, or act as adversary. So the word was *not* inherently meant to label an evil creature in the first place, just like Pagan and Witch weren't.

Quite right. I know the etymology of the word. However--We're not talking about the Hebrew word ha-SaTaN, are we? We're talking about the modern word "Satanism", derived from the *Christian* version of Satan (not the Jewish Accuser) as used in the common English vernacular, aren't we? Yes. And *that* word, *that* image, is the baggage that modern Satanists carry around, (via the name, not personal philosophy) as I stated before, because LaVey the circus performer liked the shock value that word received.

This isn't about who deserves to be persecuted. I"m not into lynching *anybody*. This *is* about Satanists who get bent out of shape when their "label" is misunderstood. It's unforunate that those who don't take the time to find out what the religion is about can't make it *past* the label--but its understandable. THat is a heavily loaded word. That's my only point. We know that words carry power, and yet we throw up our hands and says, "Its only a label." Only a label my ass. It was a carefully chosen label, and we have to consider what the implications of *that* are, as well.

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by Fawn
Um no dear obviously you don't understand it then maybe from an organized religious method of thinking but not from a Satanist's or any other pagan who sees it for what it is.
Satan did not and never existed. Period. Christian churches made him up--they used "Pan"; the Horned Lord: any other pagan name for our God as their 'devil.'



In your opinion Satan did not and does not exist. That doesn't make it so. In your opinion, Christian churches "made him up."
In your opinion, they used Pan.

Opinion is all it is. The concept of the devil predates Christianity.

Also, not all "satanists" belong to LaVeys church. What he did or did not intend doesn't apply to everyone who is a "satanist."

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by Fawn

History clarifies this---check out the Old Religion it was here first.
Then check into the the 'Crusades" maybe that might help some people to get it right--don't want to do that research---then try asking a History major about it.




The Crusades were started to reclaim Jerusalem from the Muslims, who had invaded and conquered it. That's why Jerusalem to this day has a Jewish Quarter, Arab Quarter, etc....

[Qabalarina]

Also, not all "satanists" belong to LaVeys church. What he did or did not intend doesn't apply to everyone who is a "satanist."

True. I concede this point :)

[Myst]

Originally posted by Qabalarina
Quite right. I know the etymology of the word. However--We're not talking about the Hebrew word ha-SaTaN, are we? We're talking about the modern word "Satanism", derived from the *Christian* version of Satan (not the Jewish Accuser) as used in the common English vernacular, aren't we

Not necessarily. Satanists could argue that since Satan means adversary that's the context in which they are using it. True, one person may have intentionally used it to bother Christians, but not every Satanist follows him, and why should they have to change their belief and wording just because he's let people bring to it negative connotations? That's like saying we should stop saying Witch because way back when it became associated with negative connotations...

Which isn't to say Satanists shouldn't expect some people to be upset, we find people upset to hear that we are Pagans. It's something we all have to work to fix.

I believe the question in debate is on whether Satanism is Pagan. So...?

[MistOfTheSea86]

I am not the only confused one:)

[Qabalarina]

I believe the question in debate is on whether Satanism is Pagan. So...?

Nah, I think that's a pointless debate, so I refuse to even voice on opinion on the matter.

I just wanted to respond to Mol's attitude toward labels, because I definitely think that with respect to minority religions, the labels we use and the baggage those labels carry are very important. They're not just abstract terms we use for ease of conversation (That rarely happens anyway, as we've seen!) but rather weighted concepts in their own right.

THat's it ;)

[Fawn]

As I posted earlier in the thread--yes they are.


And I must have acces to reading materials others don't.

You did have ACTUAL satanists in this thread at one time--where did they go? Who better to know that belief system then one of them!?
And IF *ANY* of you will take the time to reread through this you will see she got jumped for stating and trying to help those who did wish to know.

And why is it that all pagans/witches/wiccans/christians are so "peaceful" but damn, disagree with them and its all out war!!!



Feel free to "dis" me--you ALWAYS do---I know people this was done to firsthand.

But let me say this when you are talking about me--at least you got yourself's a good subject.

[Fawn]

By the way--I could call myself a water walker but it would not make it so.
It is insulting to say one is "STREGA" when it is strictly a family tradition and NO outsiders so keep kidding yourself.

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by Fawn
As I posted earlier in the thread--yes they are.



Feel free to "dis" me--you ALWAYS do---I know people this was done to firsthand.

But let me say this when you are talking about me--at least you got yourself's a good subject.

MODERATOR MODE

Please read the community guidelines that you agreed to and edit your post.

Thank you.

END MODERATOR MODE

[Qabalarina]

Whoa, somebody didn't take their medication this morning.

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by Fawn
As I posted earlier in the thread--yes they are.


And I must have acces to reading materials others don't.

You did have ACTUAL satanists in this thread at one time--where did they go? Who better to know that belief system then one of them!?
And IF *ANY* of you will take the time to reread through this you will see she got jumped for stating and trying to help those who did wish to know.



They are still around, and with the moderators permission I will repost that thread in here.

Kaylara

[Myst]

Originally posted by Fawn
By the way--I could call myself a water walker but it would not make it so.
It is insulting to say one is "STREGA" when it is strictly a family tradition and NO outsiders so keep kidding yourself.

Personally I think this was rude, off topic, and if you have a problem with my talking about Stregheria you should've let me know privately or voiced your opinions in that thread, not said I was insulting you here.

Just my two cents.

And incidentally, Lucidia is not a Satanist. Her husband is. And I don't think she'd agree that she got "jumped" for sharing what she knows.

[MistOfTheSea86]

I am not gong to have another HUGE BASHING FIGHT again... we all know the rules, and I want this thread to go on. I learn alot. Please dont take that away from me...

[Myst]

Originally posted by Qabalarina


Nah, I think that's a pointless debate, so I refuse to even voice on opinion on the matter.

I just wanted to respond to Mol's attitude toward labels, because I definitely think that with respect to minority religions, the labels we use and the baggage those labels carry are very important. They're not just abstract terms we use for ease of conversation (That rarely happens anyway, as we've seen!) but rather weighted concepts in their own right.

THat's it ;)

Reasonable point. However, I think labels only have as much power as we let them. People label us as Satan worshippers and animal killers because we're Pagan, then don't want to hear us tell about what we really do. I think mol's point is that people put too much stock in labels, and then aren't able to see the truth about what they're labelling. ie. People label too often and for the wrong reasons, not that labels are just stupid, useless, or unnoticed. At least, that would be my point had I said it :)

[Qabalarina]

At least, that would be my point had I said it

LOL! :p Ok

[flar7]

Are getting way off topic. And dont seem to want to make the effort to head that way. Perhaps this thread would be better closed and a new thread started on this track.

[EasternPriest]

Moderator Mode

OK, back to satanism and paganism.....

End Moderator Mode

[Qabalarina]

I DONT UNDERSTAND.

What is this board's obsession with "staying strictly on-topic"? It's nt like we've strayed so far as to discuss the sexual preferences of chipmunks. We're still talking about paganism and Satanism--but now we're talking about how language shapes our perception of such things. Based on the discussion we've been having, this was a natural progresssion of the conversation this is still relevant to the general discussion at large. It seems to me that voicing an opinion about how language shapes our view of Satanism is staying on topic, even if I'm not just being a robot and saying "YEs, I think Satanism is a pagan religion".

God, what a way to throttle creative. educational and interesting conversation. :rolleyes:

[Myst]

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7513

[Kaylara]

Originally posted by Qabalarina
I DONT UNDERSTAND.

What is this board's obsession with "staying strictly on-topic"? It's nt like we've strayed so far as to discuss the sexual preferences of chipmunks. We're still talking about paganism and Satanism--but now we're talking about how language shapes our perception of such things. Based on the discussion we've been having, this was a natural progresssion of the conversation this is still relevant to the general discussion at large. It seems to me that voicing an opinion about how language shapes our view of Satanism is staying on topic, even if I'm not just being a robot and saying "YEs, I think Satanism is a pagan religion".

God, what a way to throttle creative. educational and interesting conversation. :rolleyes:

This "creative, educational, and interesting" conversation was getting very off topic, and the moderator asked for the conversation to get back on topic. In the future, if you have a problem with a moderation, please contact the moderator via pm, e-mail, or im. Or, contact me or one of the other Administrators if you feel that the moderator is in error. Do not post a response to the moderation in the thread.

*End Administrator Mode*

Blessings,
Kaylara

[Qabalarina]

And once again, I will answer by saying if you have a problem with my moderation then please do not post another off topic post addressing it. Please either e-mail me or pm me. I will not continue to bring this topic even more off topic than it is. If you would like to publicly discuss this topic, then I suggest that you start a new thread about it.

*End Administrator Mode*

Kaylara

[mol]

SITE GOD MODE

This thread is now closed. If the rules of the Community cannot be followed. Then threads will be closed.

And, in regards to staying on topic. Its called putting a little order to the chaos. It makes things a lot easier to keep track of when you stay on topic. Besides, if I got to a thread to read about apples....I dont want to see any oranges.