Utah Bygomist Convicted!!!

[Danustouch]

http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?boardID=23053&pageLoc=/story/86/story_8661_1.html

[Earth Walker]

YAY! :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono:

Piggamy should be banned.

[slvr_phoenix]

Eh. **shrug** If he was lying on his tax returns and stuff like that, I can understand convicting him for that. If he was only legally married to one woman though, that itself is not breaking any laws, no matter how many live-in mistresses he might have.

To each their own, I say. If all involved in the relationship were consenting to be in that kind of a relationship, then what's actually wrong with it?

[Swanspirit]

and seeing that one of the "women" was 13 when she had a child with this pervert,
I hope he goes to jail for a long time.
Love and Light
Swannie

[Lucidia]

hmmm

people rarely seem to stop and consider...

if a woman CHOOSES to marry a man who already has other wives, or that will eventually take them...

why is that wrong?

it's like saying... that gay marriages should be wrong

it's like saying... polyamoury is wrong.

it's like saying... that just because SOME people don't like it, that it shouldn't be allowed.

And apparently, it's not allowed.

No, i dont' think he should have had 30 kids if he coudlnt' support them.

But also, i do not think that his case is common.

NO one is gonna force you to be someone's second wife/husband/etc. If you dont' want an open/poly/etc relationship, dont' have one.

That's where freedom comes in. You don't have to be a mormon, or a polygamist, or polyamourous. You can have fetishes, engage in an smb&d lifestyle, be gay or bisexual, or you can be a celibate priest/priestess. You can have no children, you can have many children, you can adopt, or your can give up a child for a adoption. You can have an abortion, you can be on birth control, or you can let nature run it's course. You can have a job, you can have two jobs, you can have no jobs. You can go to school. you can drop out. You can live in a house, an apartment, a condo, or you can even live in a cardboard box. You can worship whomever or whatever you choose, or choose to worship no one and nothing at all.

But i think it's wrong, and this is MY opinion, to make any decisions on whether someone else can make ANY choice.

Because it's not YOUR life.

and therefore, its' not YOUR problem.

If you really love someone, let them go. Caring for someone should never be an excuse for trying to force your opinions and beliefs on them.

Mr. Green didn't follow the law. He chose to do that. he will pay the consequences. I feel no pity for him, but I am not happy either. I think it's sad that in a country where we have so called "religious freedom", a religion had to alter it's own beliefs just to remain where they were and be acknowledged. I think that in a place where things are supposedly "openminded" and "freedom loving" that there are too many close minded people running this country like a dog on a choke chain.

[slvr_phoenix]

Darn right Lucidia!

[Swanspirit]

a system that purports to be religious ,
raises children ...... well.... the FEMALE children,
to go into polygamous marriages from the time they are born........where they suffer from a lack of rights and are subject to extreme brainwashing and almost terrorism if they dont comply...... then the arguments about freedom of choice fly out the window , because that isnt what is going on here , but only being used to veil the truth .
You are right about the polyamory lifestyle CHOICES of anyone who is raised to have and exercise their choices ,so if you want to be in a polygamous relationship then by all means do so but that is not the case here. The polygamy laws stem from when women were treated as CHATTEL which is how they were referred to and treated legally.
as Judge JUDY says ...... dont pee on my leg and tell me its raining ..... which is what the Mormon system did......
Love and Light
Swannie

[Lucidia]

well, i have to ask you then...

is growing up in ignorance an excuse for not fighting back?

I mean... when i was 13, i knew exactly what sex was, pregnancy, marriage, relationships, polygamy.

I wasn't an adult, but I was old enough to know a few things about life.

yes, women are subjugated, but you know, in some of those places... where there are prearranged marriages, and whatnot....

those women may not have the same rights we do. But some of them are happy all the same.

If someone was truly unhappy... SO unhappy that they hated their lives.

They would change something.

Even if they had to risk their life... if their current situation is SO bad.. they would find a way out.

I've been in abusive relationships, and I've been used and manipulated. I found a way out. I may have been blinded for a bit.. but once I realized what was going on.. i GOT OUT.

I may not agree with mormons, be a mormon, etc, but they have the right to do what they want. If mormon women were SO upset, they would leave. Brainwashed? maybe, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Eventually someone would make a stand a stop things anyway.

[Swanspirit]

They did....... and they convicted the abuser .......er the polygamist :>
HUGS
Swannie

[Danustouch]

IMO...Lucidia...you STILL haven't really answered the whole question about some of these girls being 13 years old, and being placed in a Bygamyst Marriage. Are you actually saying, that a 13 year old girl, is mentally, and emotionally mature, to stand up to all of her peers, and her family, and make an informed decision about her body, her future, etc?????? Well..if that's true..then WHY do we have Statuatory Rape Laws??? Heck...why do we fight so hard to make sure kids stay in school at least until they are 16? Because...I would like to suggest...their minds ARE NOT fully enough developed. They have not completed the necessary stages of developement, to come to such a conclusion. Of course, AFTER they are married, and forced to be some mans workhorse/sexdoll....they MAY be able to find a way out. But..WHY should they have to go through that in the FIRST place?

I do not disagree with polyamoury, myself. I believe that if adults wish to live in this type of relationship..that is JUST FINE. But...when it comes to YOUNG people, being put in this place, to make this sort of decision..SOMEONE has got to be looking out for their welfare.

I lost MY virginity when I was 12. And I did it..somewhat..willingly. By that I mean..I gave in. Because of emotional terrorism. Yes. Because of Peer Pressure, Yes. Because of needing to feel important SOMEWHERE in my life..YES. But aren't those ALL THE WRONG REASONS??????? I wasn't MATURE enough at that point, to become involved in a sexual relationship. I wasn't mature enough to handle the responsibility involved. I wasn't mature enough to make that decision for myself, based on what I really wanted to do. Not what I thought I HAD to do. It is by the Grace of the Goddess, alone, that I did NOT wind up pregnant, or diseased. And I for one, would gladly take back the choice that I made when I was so young, and stand up for myself..and say.."NO. This is MY body. I don't want to use it this way..with YOU.". But I can't turn back time. All I can do, is look back on the sad little 12 year old that I was, and say..."I'm sorry".

[Swanspirit]

is a vital thing to provide for children ......
I am sorry you had that experience Danus ((((((((((((HUGS)))))))) from me to you .....
but I agree wholeheartedly that protection is needed for children and those who have difficulty helping themselves ........
That poor blind woman and I mean GHETTO POOR ...that I referred to in another thread seeking an abortion was raped .... which is how she got pregnant in the first place ,, she was easy to take advantage of .....but she should just stand up for herself even though she has never done it in her life and doesnt know HOW! but she has choices?
What happens when the pedophiles decide to declare themselves a "religion" and exempt themselves from laws protecting children , they already have an organisation with a rationalisation of how children make choices ..............dont laugh or shudder .... maybe they would want to be pagans??? Hey; I have heard it argued that BDSM was not a lifestyle ,, but a SPIRITUAL PATH.....
The anything goes brand of paganism includes anything anyone agrees to...... right ???
and everyone should just stand up for themselves , we dont need compassion or helping those less able ? Give them more hoops to jump through and then if they dont make it say TOO BAD? ....
I know a Gardnerian priest that took in a mormon woman ( she had no place to go ) and has been helping her for months now, because her transition from a system where she had no choicemaking to do to one very open with lots of choices has precipitated a mental and emotional breakdown, and she is receiving treatment .
I think its all very well to have theories of how things "should be" but I know from experience that "should bes' dont really help, but looking at how things are with compassion and lending support do help.
and Lucidia.... are you saying NO ONE helped you ?? ever at any moment gave you support in any way ??
Love and HUGS
Swanie

[Lucidia]

well danustouch, i went through the SAME thing when i was 13 years old. took years for to me to admit that it wasn't my fault.

I understand that a 13 year old girl doesn't know everything about life.

But i can't say, that in that case, she wasn't happy.

Maybe she was miserable. Maybe not.

I wasn't there. I can't honestly say.

Yeah, young girls can be pressured into things. Yeah, I am well aware of statuatory rape laws.

I never said that Mr. Green didn't break the law.

I simply said that I think that people should re-evaluate the concept of religious freedom in our oh so wonderfully right wing christian run government.

No, he shouldn't have been sleeping with a 13 year old.

No, he shouldn't have had 30 kids he couldn't support.

No, polygamy isn't legal.

Indeed, He broke the law.

I just can't say that he was wrong for following his religious beliefs, and if all of those women/girls "married" him and bore his children willingly, then i can't say he was wrong there either.

Perhaps he's using his religious beliefs as a crutch.

But I don't think that there are too many mormons left that even practice polygamy, since they don't "condone" it anymore. I doubt these women/girls were raised thinking polygamy was "normal" since the majority of mormons don't practice it anymore. They obviously knew what they were getting into.

Maybe the young one was a bit ignorant about life, and I apologize if my lack of sympathy offends anyone.

But i've gone through tough experiences myself, and I still have my share of stress and unfortunate circumstances. But I refuse to spend my life complaining about a bunch of people I dont' know, in a situation i'll NEVER be in, talking about how wrong this man was, and how horribly abused these women must be.

I would rather save my rage for other things, like fighting to find cures for sicknesses, and finding ways to eliminate poverty.

I can't stop people from blindly following religions that subjugate people simply because I don't agree with them.

I'd be just as bad as all the people that dont' agree with certain religions or lifestyles simply because they don't adhere to their specific version of how life is supposed to be.

It's simply not my place to fight.

I know for a fact, that no matter what you tell some people, they will stubbornly starve themselves into the hospital, smoke and drink their unborn children until they are born with defects, shoot up heroin until they OD, commit mass suicide in a cult, drive drunk until they kill someone (or themselves). And even in my own personal experience, people will stay in dangerously abusive relationships, battered, bruised and raped, until THEY THEMSELVES choose to find a way out, or find someone to help them out. Brainwashing is a very powerful thing, and all the protests and ranting and complaining and laws will not break the trance that some people live under.

So I choose not to waste my time.

If there are laws against polygamy. so be it. If people choose to break those laws, I am just as powerless to stop them, as I am powerless to stop every theif, murderer, rapist, con artist, etc.

And as a side note, i appreciate empathy, and i am not unacceptant of sympathy, but I loathe pity. The last thing I want to know is that people are sitting around feeling sorry for "poor little me".

So I try not to pity people.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Lucidia
But i've gone through tough experiences myself, and I still have my share of stress and unfortunate circumstances. But I refuse to spend my life complaining about a bunch of people I dont' know, in a situation i'll NEVER be in, talking about how wrong this man was, and how horribly abused these women must be.

I would rather save my rage for other things, like fighting to find cures for sicknesses, and finding ways to eliminate poverty.

I can't stop people from blindly following religions that subjugate people simply because I don't agree with them.

I'd be just as bad as all the people that dont' agree with certain religions or lifestyles simply because they don't adhere to their specific version of how life is supposed to be.


The 13 year old's parents agreed to let this happen. Are we saying that not only do people not have the rights to choose to live as they wish to, the parents don't know how to raise their children? At 13 I knew a damn sight enough about myself and life to have made the same decision had I wanted to, and my parents I am sure would have the maturity to agree to it if it was right. And I was a virgin until I was 17. Sex has little to do with it, maturity and self awareness are what's important. You saying the girls cannot be allowed to do this because you think it's wrong is just as bad as anyone forcing them into doing it. If you really dislike your situation you change it, regardless of the circumstances.

Laws were broken, yes. He's being punished for breaking those laws. I don't think the legality of the matter has been challenged. Pedophilia is also illegal. Morally, the girls had a choice. Morally, you have your own opinions. I refuse to say it's wrong having never been in that situation and having not been there to see it, judge not lest ye be judged.

[SpikesPet5150]

Good points Lucidia. I must agree with you, especially when you say, "I wasn't there." We can't make up hypothetical circumstances for this girl (or girls) simply to feel sorry for them. From the time I was 13 years old, I was *always* pressured into having sex, not just my boyfriends, but my girlfriends, too. I said no. I might be a minority here, but truthfully, I didn't find it all that hard to just say no to them. I've always been sure of myself and I've never really cared what other people think of me. If they didn't want to go out with me, or be my friend because I wouldn't have sex with some boy, then screw them. I don't need them. I saw this saying on a poster when I was a kid, and it's always stuck with me, in fact, this may be where I got my outlook.

I don't care anymore if they like me.
I am my own person and I don't need them.
They can rot in their own eternal hell,
But I refused to be dragged down with them.

Good saying, very empowering. No idea who wrote it.

Another thing, I've known quite a few mormon families, all of them from Utah. NONE of them believed in Polygamy, none of them knew anyone who believed in it, so I don't believe that the women in this religion are brainwashed or forced into anything. I'm not saying that some of them aren't, but, as a whole, I don't believe that. I try not to judge people because of their religious beliefs. Just as I don't like it when people judge me because of mine.
~Bree
:elf:

[EasternPriest]

Polygamy is no longer an accepted lifestyle in the Mormon Church "Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints." When the church outlawed it, some who were not willing to go along with the change broke away from the church and founded their own.

They are "Mormon" in the same sense that there are many Catholic Churches, only one of which is the Roman Catholic Church.

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by Mystique
YAY! :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono:

Piggamy should be banned.

Then I guess it is also "Piggamy" for a woman to have more than one mate.

[Lucidia]

Originally Posted by SpikesPet5150
From the time I was 13 years old, I was *always* pressured into having sex, not just my boyfriends, but my girlfriends, too. I said no. I might be a minority here, but truthfully, I didn't find it all that hard to just say no to them. I've always been sure of myself and I've never really cared what other people think of me.

My boyfriend was beating the living poop out of me on a daily basis. It was more than pressure for me, it was fear for my life. I had said no for months and months, run away from him, tried to get away from him. No one believed me when i told him, even my parents. I was 13, most people don't seem to have the ability to believe some little 13 year old's 15 year old boyfriend would possibly be beating her. He would eventaully find me at my school, and follow me home, and try to "sweet talk" me into coming back, and if that didn't work, he'd start screaming and ranting and getting violent.

sorry about that bit of OT, it's just that I wanted to point out that sometimes it's not that people give in because of "pressure", but for other reasons like "fear for their lives".

Moving on...


Originally Posted by SpikesPet5150
Another thing, I've known quite a few mormon families, all of them from Utah. NONE of them believed in Polygamy, none of them knew anyone who believed in it, so I don't believe that the women in this religion are brainwashed or forced into anything. I'm not saying that some of them aren't, but, as a whole, I don't believe that. I try not to judge people because of their religious beliefs. Just as I don't like it when people judge me because of mine.

Which is definitely one of my points. Just because we don't "understand" or "believe in" the concepts of polygamy, or a 13 year old girl truly being able to make an informed decision reguarding sex, pregnancy or marriage, but I can't say that every mormon woman is a brainwashed and battered slave.

As I've observed in many cultures, when you grow up a certain way, there is a possibility that is all you really know and it's what you feel comfortable doing in your life.

Imagine how our culture must look? imagine how concepts like "polyamoury" and "open relationships", and even things like "premarital sex" or even "casual sex" must look to a more conservative culture. Are those women WRONG for following a lifestyle that is different from our own? Who are we to say that will make them happier, or more "liberated"?

I refuse to start labeling things right and wrong. The only time I feel that something i truly wrong, is when it is somehow adversely affecting the lives of other people, without their consent (such as, thievery, or murder, or kidnapping, or abuse, or in many cases, harrassing someone, or telling them they are "evil" or "wrong" or "bad" simply because you choose to live your life differently.)

I feel that if you choose not to be a mormon, or a mormon of their other factions, or choose to have more than one spouse, that's fine.

I'm not a mormon, or even a christian. I have tried open relationships and I didn't like them. I refuse to be someone's other other other wife. I dont' want two husbands.

But I will never say someone is "wrong" for following their beliefs.

[Lilu]

Originally posted by Lucidia
Which is definitely one of my points. Just because we don't "understand" or "believe in" the concepts of polygamy, or a 13 year old girl truly being able to make an informed decision reguarding sex, pregnancy or marriage, but I can't say that every mormon woman is a brainwashed and battered slave.

*grin* And to throw something else into the kettle...

I am a believer that before we are BORN we CHOOSE our parents for the basic life lessons that they can provide. Who is to say that in the grand scheme of things that one of these souls, CHOSE to be born into this particular mormon way of life to experience polygamy? Maybe before they were even born there was something that they wanted to learn/experience and this was how to do it?

Just a different way of looking at it ;)

I'm not condoning child abuse, or anything like that. I don't believe that he should have been sleeping with a 13 year old. And I personally find it disgusting when people have more kids than they can support. But he's being punished now for breaking the law. However, I also agree with Lucidia, we can't judge the situation because we weren't there - perhaps the 13 year old was perfectly happy? Who knows? *shrug*

Lilu

[vocis noctis]

From the site

Tom Green, 53, also was ordered to pay $78,000 in restitution to the state for welfare payments fraudulently collected by his family.




Is this MTV's Tom Green?? or am I asking a nutty question?

[Danustouch]

LOL..no silly..not Tom Green of MTV fame.

[Myst]

Originally posted by Lilu

I am a believer that before we are BORN we CHOOSE our parents for the basic life lessons that they can provide.

I really agree with this - as much to say I'm sure this is the truth. I know I chose my parents for the lessons they'd help me find, and the principles they instill and me, and for the lessons they have lived that I learned from.

And there are those who would say my family is evil because they *didn't* pressure me into a religion (like the 13 year old in question, whos parents may have pressured her into one) too. I don't believe this is so.

[NightFire]

I was raised Mormon, and was an Elder in the "church" before I became a pagan.
If you noticed on the article, it was "Mormon FUNDAMINTALIST" not Mormon at all.
I KNOW what the Mormon beliefs are, I taught them for many years, I went on a mission for the church. The Mormons do NOT belive in polygamy, and will destroy any building that a polygamist marriage is performed in. They follow the teachings of the Bible, like SEVERAL other christian churchs did. It was very much permited in the U.S. to have multiple spouses, for male AND female. The church outlawed the practice at the SAME time that the U.S. made it illegal. Utah had NO need to comply with the U.S. Govt, because it was NOT part of the United States, it was a seperate government alltogether. It's name was the Kingdom of Desseret (sp?) look up the history. It was very capable of holding it's own against the U.S. and it did several times.
Utah decided to be a state a short time later, and the U.S. proclaimed the statehood almost immediatly.

I feel it was not a moral decision that this man made, but it was not illegal either. It is legal to marry in every state at 13, and some even younger, with parental consent. This man was never married to more than one person at a time. The minors he married had signed parental consent (I saw him on a talkshow, and that was asked by the host). He broke no laws.

The 13 y.o. girls parents were also polygamists, and they were NOT raised that way. They had joined the fundamintalist church AFTER their daughter was born, and then the husband married another woman, and WAS still legaly married to his first wife. His 2nd wife was still a minor when they were married.

The only major difference between Mormonism, and paganism is that Mormons belive in Jesus being the Christ. Most of the teachings are very pagan oriented. Mormons believe their ARE multiple gods, they also believe that woman are the choosen of God, and are to be treated with ABSOLUTE loyalty. Mormon men are taught to put their wife above EVERYTHING else, except God.

When polygamy was legal, the Mormon church would NOT allow a man to marry another woman unless he provided her with her own house, and was able to support her in a comfortable manner. In a polygamist relationship, the man owns nothing.

I felt I needed to say this, since I saw so many posts against Mormons. I have first hand knowledge of Mormonism, and many of the "secret rights of passage". I have been through the tempels, and have seen and heard things I'm not allowed to relate to anyone else. I will say though, that any man that cannot, or does not, provide for their family is cursed, according to the Mormon beliefs.

I feel that everyone should be allowed to live how they wish, so long as it causes no harm to others.

If you never want to have a relationship, that's your choice.
If you want to have multiple spouses, you should be allowed to.
You want to be athiest, fine.
You want to worship every god that ever existed, go ahead.

I cannot fathom how it is legal, in some states, to have same sex marriages, yet multipe marriages are not allowed (would be kinda difficult on the taxes though :) )

I did not serve this country and get injured, just so I can be dictated to.

ANYWAYS....I sound like I'm ranting, and I don't want to sound like that, so I guess I'll close now.

(typical NightFire closing)

PHOENIX KISSES!!!!
COYOTE SLOBBERS!!!!
MOON HUGS!!!!
NIGHT SNUGGLES!!!
FIRE LICKS!!!!
hehe

L&L

[slvr_phoenix]

Thanks NightFire! :)

And there you have it folks.

It sounds like the only thing actually 'illegal' was that his family fraudulently collected welfare. I'm not sure of the full blame for this should fall on him, or on him and all of his wives (or at least those responsible for the fraud).

I'm not sure if being unable to provide for your family is illegal or not. **shrug** Either way, it's a shame someone would have such a large family and not support them. But then, in today's day and age of gender-equality, shouldn't at least half of the responsability of supporting the family fall on the wife (wives) as well? To me, it sounds like this in and of itself is indicative of sexism against men.

But hey, that leads into a whole different topic.

Anyway, he's being punished for what he did that was illegal. As for the morality of the rest of it, I think as it's been said, so long as everyone was consenting and no one was 'hurt', who are we to judge the morality of it? Live and let live.

[Swanspirit]

You know me......... so here goes , let me quote you ..... "It is legal to marry in every state at 13, and some even younger, with parental consent. This man was never married to more than one person at a time. The minors he married had signed parental consent (I saw him on a talkshow, and that was asked by the host). He broke no laws."
Now you have children..... dont you think those laws that make it legal to marry at 13 are leftovers from when children and women were chattel ? I dont know of any responsible adult that would give consent for a 13 year old of either sex to marry much less have children . ..... so perhaps those laws desperately need changing. I am still glad he was convicted , and parental consent doesnt mean the consent of the child. A 13 year old child cant sign a contract in this country that is legal and binding how can they consent to marriage even with the parental consent? And as far as parental consent goes ..... I have worked with abused children for far too long not to know that some parents will consent to anything up to and including putting thier children on the street for sex, for money .
I am sorry if anything I said was misconstrued as negative toward the Mormon Church .
I had no idea there were Mormon Fundies , but I guess no one is exempt from fundies, even pagans :> .
Lets get real here ........which is what the courts did ...... if a parent of a 13 year old brought her to you and said "I give you permission to have sex with her signed sealed and delivered with this marriage consent" , would YOU do it ?? It would be incumbent on you to behave in a manner that would not harm a child , despite laws, that can be used , bent and twisted .
As far as polygamous marriages , people can do what they want as far as I am concerned as long as they dont involve children.
And as far as "choosing our parents prior to birth " that may or may not be true BUT I think if you are going to have that kind of belief , you must know you are dangerously skirting the idea that child abuse is "karma for kids " and a very dangerous idea to disseminate. Some people do think that some children get what they deserve , and completly justify it with that kind of thinking , and completey miss the inherent innocence and horrible injustice and ADDED ABUSE that one heaps on a childs head by inferring that their abuse is their karma . Horrible I know but some people do it unwittingly all the time .
Love and SwanHUGS
Swannie

[Lilu]

Originally posted by Swanspirit
And as far as "choosing our parents prior to birth " that may or may not be true BUT I think if you are going to have that kind of belief , you must know you are dangerously skirting the idea that child abuse is "karma for kids " and a very dangerous idea to disseminate. Some people do think that some children get what they deserve , and completly justify it with that kind of thinking , and completey miss the inherent innocence and horrible injustice and ADDED ABUSE that one heaps on a childs head by inferring that their abuse is their karma . Horrible I know but some people do it unwittingly all the time .

I think you missed my point completely. I didn't mention karma at all. In fact, I believe karma to be completely different in the case of "choosing parents". For example, I believe I chose my parents for the life lessons that they gave me, I won't go into details because that would take way too long, BUT suffice it to say that MY PARENTS were not perfect, my father was very mentally and sometimes physically abusive.

Everyone in the situation learned from this, and I can honestly say that had I been raised with a different father (a friend's father who is the opposite to my Dad comes to mind) then I would not be the confident, independent and intelligent person who I am today.

What I was saying in THIS SITUATION is that perhaps this particular girl chose to be born into the situation to learn a lesson about compassion, or abuse itself. It has nothing (IMHO) to do with karma. There are many people out there who will whine and whinge about how they would NEVER choose to be born to an abusive parent, blah blah blah. I ask them. Why not? What if your LESSON in this life wasn't just to experience these things, but to SURVIVE and TEACH and RIGHT WRONGS because of what you experienced?

Now I'm not saying that everything bad that happens to someone is for their own good, but sometimes, you just have to ask yourself, what am I supposed to be learning from this?

Lilu

[SpikesPet5150]

Lilu,
Thats a wonderful outlook.. my cousin feels the same way and she was abused (sexually, emotionally, physically) all through her childhood. But now she's a wonderful, compassionate, intelligent and very strong willed young woman. Eventually she was adopted by her best friends mom, and she got to have that wonderful home life she always wanted... and she always said if she hadn't have been raised the way she was, she never would have appreciated all her adopted family gave her. :)

I don't really know why we're even commenting on the will of this 13 year old girl. Anyone stop to think maybe she *wanted* to do this? As I said before we can't make up hypothetical situations for this girl just to feel sorry for her. We have no idea what she wanted. Maybe she was happy. We have to remember that just because we don't agree with it, or understand it at all, doesn't mean it doesn't make someone else happy. So many people, when they find out I'm Wiccan, tend to believe I've been brainwashed, and there's no possible way this was MY choice, because after all, witchcraft is evil. They don't stop to think that this IS what I want, and I did choose this and I'm very happy. Everyone has their own path in life, and maybe this girl wanted to be in this situation. Maybe it made her very happy. We won't know until we find out what she says about it.
~Bree

[Swanspirit]

about "karma for kids : and what you are saying about learning from your childhood. I didnt say you were saying that , I was making the point that the distinction need to be made, and not all people make it as clearly as you just did . Other wise we would be doing a Dr Laura, using guilt by implication and association , one of her favorite tricks :> . It is important to be clear and make those distinctions, because other people can easily misconstrue and misinterpret , and this is one of those areas in my opinion where that can happen . I have seen it happen ..... an ex-boyfriend of mine told a child friend of mine her abuse was her karma , probably out of a sense of helplessness ( he was the helpless type)but still ..... if you know the dynamics of abuse most chilren already believe it is their FAULT that something bad has happened to them , and children dont get to abstract thinking until post puberty most of the time , so they just end up with more ABUSIVE ideas ..about why this is happening to them . And working on those issues as adults..... absolutely it always helps to go to ones childhood to look for patterns.
I am sorry you were abused, no one should have to suffer that, I wasnt abused as a child in the physical sense , but both of my parents were , horribly so , so in their efforts to NOT abuse their children they passed on fears , and other things they didnt have the knowledge or resources to help. But at least you are working on it and looking at it instead of passing it on ......every abuser was once an abused child .....doesnt make them not responsible for passing it on IMO :>
Love and SwanHUGS
Swanie

[Wyrdsister]

Wow, too many points to quote! :woah: :D So I'll just throw in my few cents:

I'm glad this guy has been brought up on charges and been convicted.
I believe polyamory is a valid life choice (imho), but I do not believe that this is a case of polyamory.
13 is not a legal age of concent, so whether the young girl was happy or not when she had sex with this lout is legally, at least, a moot point. Legally, it's outright wrong.
I have a very deep and (imho) educated guess that this was not a situation of people entering into an life arrangement with absolute free will. I believe that both the five women have been taught from day one that men rule the roost and what they want is what God wants, and vice versa. I believe they were brought up to believe in the role of the woman and wife as servant as mandated by God. Yes, this is definitely my opinion and not a statement of fact, and I freely concede that. :D
I think that's pretty much it for now! :thumbsup: Thanks for reading!

Wyrdsister

[Wyrdsister]

Originally posted by EasternPriest
Then I guess it is also "Piggamy" for a woman to have more than one mate. Not for more than one mate; more than one husband. :)

Wyrdsister

[Dria El]

Originally posted by NightFire
I was raised Mormon, and was an Elder in the "church" before I became a pagan.
If you noticed on the article, it was "Mormon FUNDAMINTALIST" not Mormon at all.
I KNOW what the Mormon beliefs are, I taught them for many years, I went on a mission for the church. The Mormons do NOT belive in polygamy, and will destroy any building that a polygamist marriage is performed in. They follow the teachings of the Bible, like SEVERAL other christian churchs did. It was very much permited in the U.S. to have multiple spouses, for male AND female. The church outlawed the practice at the SAME time that the U.S. made it illegal. Utah had NO need to comply with the U.S. Govt, because it was NOT part of the United States, it was a seperate government alltogether. It's name was the Kingdom of Desseret (sp?) look up the history. It was very capable of holding it's own against the U.S. and it did several times.
Utah decided to be a state a short time later, and the U.S. proclaimed the statehood almost immediatly.

I feel it was not a moral decision that this man made, but it was not illegal either. It is legal to marry in every state at 13, and some even younger, with parental consent. This man was never married to more than one person at a time. The minors he married had signed parental consent (I saw him on a talkshow, and that was asked by the host). He broke no laws.

The 13 y.o. girls parents were also polygamists, and they were NOT raised that way. They had joined the fundamintalist church AFTER their daughter was born, and then the husband married another woman, and WAS still legaly married to his first wife. His 2nd wife was still a minor when they were married.

The only major difference between Mormonism, and paganism is that Mormons belive in Jesus being the Christ. Most of the teachings are very pagan oriented. Mormons believe their ARE multiple gods, they also believe that woman are the choosen of God, and are to be treated with ABSOLUTE loyalty. Mormon men are taught to put their wife above EVERYTHING else, except God.

When polygamy was legal, the Mormon church would NOT allow a man to marry another woman unless he provided her with her own house, and was able to support her in a comfortable manner. In a polygamist relationship, the man owns nothing.

I felt I needed to say this, since I saw so many posts against Mormons. I have first hand knowledge of Mormonism, and many of the "secret rights of passage". I have been through the tempels, and have seen and heard things I'm not allowed to relate to anyone else. I will say though, that any man that cannot, or does not, provide for their family is cursed, according to the Mormon beliefs.

I feel that everyone should be allowed to live how they wish, so long as it causes no harm to others.

If you never want to have a relationship, that's your choice.
If you want to have multiple spouses, you should be allowed to.
You want to be athiest, fine.
You want to worship every god that ever existed, go ahead.

I cannot fathom how it is legal, in some states, to have same sex marriages, yet multipe marriages are not allowed (would be kinda difficult on the taxes though :) )

I did not serve this country and get injured, just so I can be dictated to.

ANYWAYS....I sound like I'm ranting, and I don't want to sound like that, so I guess I'll close now.

(typical NightFire closing)

PHOENIX KISSES!!!!
COYOTE SLOBBERS!!!!
MOON HUGS!!!!
NIGHT SNUGGLES!!!
FIRE LICKS!!!!
hehe

L&L

I'm sooo glad you spoke up! I too spent most of my life Mormon and agree with you wholeheartedly.

Blessings...