The Creation of the World

[-Sky-]

Hello!

So what everybody believes about the Creation?How were humans and the rest of the universe created?
Oh and I have another question,what do pagans and wiccans believe about the Creation,how did everything start?

~Anna

[semi]

I believe in the Big Bang theory( or something similar) but I believe that the process may have been shaped by....something. In the path of Ifa that I practice, the creator is called Olodumare. All the orisha (deities) are manifetations of Olodumare.

[soilsigh aingeal]

other-I don't know

[Findarto]

I dunno.
Maybe we're from Adam and Steve ?
Maybe from science.
Now, how long will it take scientist to come up with something that makes people live for ever ?

[~BEBZ~]

Since the question was about the universe I put the third. I do believe in the big bang theory. But I honestly believe we are not of this planet originally. I think we are all aliens that came here from our own, dying, home planet.

[Lai]

"Other", because when you get right down to it something had to have appeared without reason. What about those microbes? What about the particles that form planets? Where did all that come from?

I remember once on a chat we spoke about the same subject, and came to this conclusion: Everything comes from nothing.

[Tsuchimaru]

Other-I don't care. :)

[Aedrais]

I voted the first one, but it's a combination of that and the third. I believe that we evolved completely scientifically- I think it's harder to disagree in a world with so much scientifically proven.

However... something had to spark it. Some energy had to set it all in motion. I think that "everything" started with a little spark of energy from somewhere, and it carried on from there. :)

[Xentor]

Combination of 1 and 3 for me as well. Who knows, perhaps there's some truth in #2 as well.

I believe the creator created a blue-print only, instilled it with life and thus gave up their singular existence. The universe developed from that blue-print. Thus us humans might not have been on the initial blue-print. Natural evolution would have resulted in our species.

[Aidron]

We came from the same energy that the pagan God and Goddess were "born"

I was not aware that there was a universal pagan God and Goddess. :eyebrow:

My beliefs on the matter are that the universe is a living entity, just as we are. It consists of matter just as we do, and the blueprint for elemental Spirit present within all things in my eyes. From life, comes more life, that is science. All things reproduce. From all of this comes death, but that's neither here nor there. I believe however the cosmos came about it was a very mystical occurance, but nevertheless can be explained in scientific terms, not now perhaps, or even by us, but eventually.

[savannahrose44]

Dont know but I would like to believe that we came from the same source as the gods...only the universe knows for sure. :toofless:

[Tobias]

I think it's pretty obvious that our physical bodies came into the form they now have through some steps of the evolutionary process. But, I believe that process was guided by someone.

The big question though is: Where did our spirits come from? We are spiritual beings somehow attached to these physical bodies. Why do we choose to possess them? If we reincarnate everytime after we die, what motivates us to keep comming back into these frail human bodies again and again? Did we originate on some other planet billions of years ago, screw up somehow, and get condemned to repeat lifetime after lifetime here with no real ability to remember anything from one to the next?


Which brings up another good question. Where do gods and other spiritual beings fit in? Are they also condemned to this same system that we are, or did they create (or give birth) to us? Mabey they were just passing by one day, and found a bunch of us hapless beings in desperate need of their guidance?

I think every religion has tried to explain our origins in some fashion or another. It doesn't mean any of them have gotten it right though. Ok, mabey one of them has... but which one?

All we can really go by is what we are able to see or otherwise perceive. I've come across many, many spirit beings on this planet, inhabiting everything from humans beings, to trees and lakes. Can we all be natives of this planet?




Since the question was about the universe I put the third. I do believe in the big bang theory. But I honestly believe we are not of this planet originally. I think we are all aliens that came here from our own, dying, home planet.

[Mau]

Ya know..I had this whole 'theory' mapped out one night (in a non-sober state) while watching a show on PBS about outer space.
The basics that make up matter are atoms and molecules which are made up of littler things (electrons, protons, neutrons, nucleus). And then I started thinking about solar systems in tems of being large atoms. And that led to the rationale that we are living in an atom that makes up really BIG matter, that could be nothing more than a chair for HUGE beings. But then I creeped myself out really bad thinking that in that line of thought, there could be really tiny beings living in the atoms that make up our matter. :yikes:

[Sequoia]

Actually, although having been very heavy into science and evolutionary theory when I was younger, I have drifted more and more towards the idea of a 'creation'.

Personally, I believe that God (a feminine sort of reference to the Christian idea, complex to explain) created most things... that there have been some limited evolutions, and that naturally humans created things like cars and buildings, not God. I don't believe in an Adam and Eve, but more the idea that She created a race of creatures, with variances, and placed them in different parts of the world.

[Xentor]

Ya know..I had this whole 'theory' mapped out one night (in a non-sober state) while watching a show on PBS about outer space.
The basics that make up matter are atoms and molecules which are made up of littler things (electrons, protons, neutrons, nucleus). And then I started thinking about solar systems in tems of being large atoms. And that led to the rationale that we are living in an atom that makes up really BIG matter, that could be nothing more than a chair for HUGE beings. But then I creeped myself out really bad thinking that in that line of thought, there could be really tiny beings living in the atoms that make up our matter. :yikes:

There's a couple of people believing similar concepts. I remember a thread with a discussion about just this.

One of the things that came up, was the idea that electrons didn't travel around the atom in elliptical paths (like planets and comets around stars) but rather vibrated in different layers of energy, jumping closer to or further away from the center.

I've been told that when the atomic model was developed, they chose a planetary construct for lack of a better description. ;) It seems to have been corrected just a couple of decades afterwards, but that correction doesn't seem to have reached our highschools.

[HorseCrow]

Other.

I believe in the BB, micro organisms, apes and evolution- but that this evolution was the intention of the "divine". That is, it was not a random evolution, is was on purpose.

[ap Dafydd]

I don't believe in divine intervention to create anything (unless possibly something gave the space time continuum a poke and that's what caused the Big Bang! - if so, then something far to remote and unknowable to have meaning for us humans). Instead I'm completely with the scientific theory of origins and evolution.

But. When life emerged, the divinity emerged with it, linked to it and part of it and changing as life changed.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[MentalCensorship]

Other.

I believe in the BB, micro organisms, apes and evolution- but that this evolution was the intention of the "divine". That is, it was not a random evolution, is was on purpose.

That's pretty much what I believe. I believe in the scientific Big Bang theory, coupled with the God and Goddess creating the creatures and the earth. I'm not quite sure if I can sum up the depth of my belief in this subject out of four categories, or if I can even sum it up at all.

[savannahrose44]

That's pretty much what I believe. I believe in the scientific Big Bang theory, coupled with the God and Goddess creating the creatures and the earth. I'm not quite sure if I can sum up the depth of my belief in this subject out of four categories, or if I can even sum it up at all.

Yeah I hear ya. :lol:

[Mindflayer]

I don't know exactly how it was created, but I do beleive there was an initial Divine spark that started it, and probably gave creation and life a little kick in the ass along the way :p

[Rubber_Piggy]

I stand with the scientific view. I'm for evolution right back to two hydrogens and a oxygen coming together to form the first water molecule. However something (a greater power, whether you choose to call it the divine or gravity, i see the two as essentially the same thing when it comes to creation) had to have started it all.

[Anahita]

I voted other. I personally believe that the energy that we call Goddess always existed and that She created the Universe. I haven't decided on anything more specific than that.

- Anahita

[Romani Vixen]

I feel that it's a combination of the first and third answers. I believe in the big bang theory and evolution, but it's represented by the energy comming together and splitting, etc.

[Secrets Flame]

I have several possible theories that I'll put in here if anyone is interested... they use an analogy to computer programmers for how the creation "can" be done.

These are entirely mine so, don't worry about "copywrite" breaches if you want to use them elsewhere (not that you would)


A computer programmer, creates a program, in which there is a "universe", a "world" and a "civilisation".

The programmer sets up an enclosed system with its own "laws" that does not need direct intervention to run. However, because the programmer himself is not perfect, there are errors/bugs in the code, that the programmer will have to fix. I.E. in order for the simulation to run more smoothly, there needs to be intervention on the part of the programmer to fix their own mistakes.

Now, to the "civilisation" contained within the enclosed system, the programmer would be perceived as this mysterious "force" that changes things drastically, or even minutely. If the programmer so wished then they could interact with the "civilisation" they have created. However, the programmer is still able to make mistakes, and so the "universe" system is not perfect, as the programmer is not perfect.

The programmer, though, has supreme power over the system, the power to build it, the power to destroy it, the power to change anything in it. They can manipulate the code in any way they see fit, wether this be for good or for bad.

So while the programmer has ultimate, indeed even infinate power over their created system, they still can, and do, make mistakes in the code, and also can, and most likely do, things which are not done out of "love" but out of frustration that there is a bug that is causing the "universe" not to act the way it was intended.

So this is a single god, that is omnipotent, and yet not infalliable.

and the other one


Rather than a single programmer, there is a programming team. They each contribute a different aspect to the enclosed system. The creating idea being greater than each individual programmer, yet it nothing would get done without the combined efforts of all.

This is what the consciousnesses in the system would identify as a "pantheon" of "gods". The programmer that designed, say, the weather, would be able to have direct influence over the weather, but nothing else. The programmer who worked on "love" and other emotions, would be able to have direct influence over the things they created.

In this system, none of the programmers are omnipotent in respects to the created system, yet it is the combined effort of all that did create the system. Here you have a working pantheon of gods, who may or may not be good or bad, or both, or neutral, that have combined together to create the system, and each has a direct influence upon their own part within the creation.

[asamananara]

In my experience, the creation is not some static event of the
distant past, but a vital, dynamic process unfolding with every
breath you draw. Nothing is known of the past; every artifact of
history is witnessed through living eyes.
Personally, I believe creation to be the infinite singularity,
"GOD", manifest as finite plurality, "COSM".
It's happening right now. This moment.
I can't choose number one, as the creator "god" was not born or
created; if anything, he stops where we begin.
Number two... I can't even consider. Entirely to biocentric.
Number three... well, same as number two.
Put me down for "other".

[Cadabuz]

I believe all things are energy or a byproduct of energy or a combination of both. So creation started with energy and with the byproducts (solids) Life as we know it began. I will not go into the god/ess aspect in regards to this as I think this explains my position on "creation"

Forgot a little something so I edited it to reflect what I meant.

[LittleRhiannon]

Um, the best I can describe what I believe is that the big bang was set into motion by divine forces, and evolution, ect, all happened as a result of that.

I don't think the gods are omnipotent, I believe they're just a more powerful race than us.

[Amethyst Rose]

I believe in the big bang and the theory of evolution. I don't believe that there was any spiritual force that cause these things to happen. In fact, I believe that PEOPLE created the gods, (through belief, which manifested through energy into sentience) not the other way around.

[Moon Daughter]

of course, my belief on this is always changing, just as on anything else, but at this point in my life, it feels right to think that...there was no beginning, that in one shape or another, it's always been.
and as for the rest, then the Great Spirit, the evolution, you name it, it really doesn't matter.

[Rudas Starblaze]

no comment, i didnt vote because the option i believe in wasnt posted and all the other options didnt use any detail as to there definition, beggining and reasoning for life.

ok so i have a comment.

now, this is my opinion. its something i have thought about since i was young and in grade school. the big bang theory,,, if it is true, then why do we worry about religion? the big bang theory means everything has been evolving, which means there is no God, there is no god/goddess, there are no other deities. it would mean we should be mindless creatures without the right of choice, without religion, because that means that there is no such thing as a religion. because if everything just happened due to a huge cosmic explosion, then like i said, none of the religions we believe in actually exsist. we are all just believing in what someone else says and has written, (which happens most of the time anyway). it would mean that we all are wrong if we claim any religion at all. it would mean that none of us has a purpose here on earth. that means that the person you love the most is nothing, just another partical in exsistance without any true meaning to you and you to them. but hey, thats just my opinion and one of my honest beliefs.

ILLAW,
Rudas Starblaze

[equinox2]

Hi all-

Like several other people, I think that both 1 and 3 can be true at the same time. For me, I’m pretty sure that 3 is true based on the evidence, and I think that 1 is true also, at least in a metaphorical sense. I other words, I think that we did evolve from simple molecules, and that our consciousness could be called “part of the divine”, which is consistent with the idea that (at least part of us) comes from the god and goddess.

Some specific comments:

Secrets Flame, we may disagree on some threads, but on this thread I think your ideas are interesting and useful. Both ideas neatly solve many theodicy problems, and are consistent with a lot of the evidence we have. Have you rented the movie “The Thirteenth Floor”? I recommend it – it has ideas similar to what you’ve written, and it is a good movie to boot.

Starblaze wrote:


the big bang theory,,, if it is true, then why do we worry about religion? the big bang theory means everything has been evolving, which means there is no God, there is no god/goddess, there are no other deities.

Not necessarily. The BB theory explains a lot of data and appears to be correct, but it doesn’t not eliminate the possibility of the divine. The BB theory does remove the need for the divine, but it doesn’t say one doesn’t exist. It’s like if I saw a leaf moving and attributed it to a ghost, then someone proposed the theory of wind. Yes, maybe the leaf is just moving due to the wind, but it could still be due to a ghost, or could be due to both. Also, many theists use the BB as evidence that a divinity DOES exist – the deity created by using a BB.


it would mean we should be mindless creatures without the right of choice,

Well, we certainly are conscious, and that one fact constantly reminds me that we don’t have the entire phenomena of the universe figured out yet, because just “particles interacting” doesn’t explain why we are conscious. I’ve given a sermon at a UU church about this – it is here: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tfelconsci.htm


without religion, because that means that there is no such thing as a religion. because if everything just happened due to a huge cosmic explosion, then like i said, none of the religions we believe in actually exsist. we are all just believing in what someone else says and has written, (which happens most of the time anyway). it would mean that we all are wrong if we claim any religion at all. it would mean that none of us has a purpose here on earth. that means that the person you love the most is nothing, just another partical in exsistance without any true meaning to you and you to them.

For me, the naturalistic view is most consistent with the data we have from science. However, I do think that there is something to consciousness, something that goes beyond our current understanding. I think that this could give free will some room to exist. I also think that our consciousness and our brain architecture as made by evolution together give us some purpose in this life. I talk a little about my own spirituality, which I think does have a lot of purpose, here: http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/tjchap8.htm

Starblaze, we agree on many things, I and I too once saw things as you described in that last paragraph. I haven’t changed my view much, but I've added some spirituality without changing my naturalistic worldview, and without believing in things I see as silly, like the idea that a God sat down one day and molded humans out of clay. I hope you enjoy chapter 8.

May the stars light your path-

-Jon

[Lynleigh]

other

I think we were created by some combination of numbers 1 and 3.

[Rudas Starblaze]

to equinox2


well, those are my beliefs, and nothing will change them. if am to conform to anything, then that would make my beliefs a lie to me. but thank you for picking apart my beliefs. actually everything you have posted i has read about in school. and actually all "evidence" that was shown me still didnt support the idea of the BB. and any time i hear what others have to say on it, it only makes me belief even stronger cause even in trying to defend the BB, they still confirm what i believe in. and you did that!!! it just seems impossible that an explosion could cause intellegent life forms. but like i said, those are my beliefs, i didnt try to force them on anyone. i only stated my opinion.

:smile:

ILLAW,
Rudas

[Stormcall]

ROCK ON PEOPLE STATING THEIR BELIEFS AND NOT FORCING THEM ON ANYONE!! :) :yourock:

But as to the poll, I believe in a combination of 1 and 3, mostly 3. The BB might have had a poke or two from the goddess and god, though..:)

[Jolixte]

3, but with a bit of energy to start it off, but not the energy mentioned in #1.

[Pure Ahimsa]

I do not believe in Creation- I beleive in Formation-Natural Forces were always there and formed us from previous energies.

[argento_occhi]

spiritually, i ascribe to a blending of the Heliopolis and Hermopolis creation myths (one having Amun as the creator, the other Djehuti), and i've managed to blendi it with evolution. It all started in the barren waters of creation, the Nun, not unlike the supposed conditions pre-life on Earth. The Gods created the first life forms, then left evolution take over, stepping in every now and then to help things along. And eventually, we turned up. So there. We all got the divine spark in us, but dang it, we evolved from apes. There.

bright blessings,
argent

[Morr]

first off, id like to point out that its not "The Christian God", in the Genisis story. If we are talking Monotheism, its the Jewish God, or Aberahamic God (since Judaism and Aberaham came before Christianity). However, Y-H-V-H also known as the One God, the Father, Aberahamic God, etc etc - Is traced to have origins in the Acient Sumarian Pantheon of Gods (A War God), and he was worshiped in the area of Ur Kasdim (today's Iraq), most likely by the Tribe/Family/Area where Aberaham was residing. Of course, later Aberaham traveled West towards Kena'an (Palastine/Israel), and a few genereations later - When his Grandchildren's children have become Monotheistic (since Issac, Jacob and their wives & kids werent yet completely Monotheistic) - did Y-H-V-H become the Hebrew/Jewish/Israelite People's one and only God. The unique point that actually marks the "official" beginning of Judaism is at Mount Sinai - When the Hebrews recieve the Torah.

BUT ANYWAYS, :lol: I voted "other".

I personally believe that there is some sort of Divine Power out there that aided with the creation not of just us or the earth, but of everything else - Energy, Space, the Planets, etc etc. However, I believe that Science and its tools (physics, chemistry, biology, evolution, etc) are the tools of creations. Meaning - Science & Divine go hand in had. Creation & Evolution back each other up. I dont see these as opposing one another or as one being truth and the other false.

Plus, the Genisis Creation story is taken from an Acient Sumarian Creation Story as well - So technically its an Acient PAGAN Creation story (one of many, of course).

[Tigerlily]

I voted for "We steadily developped from water microbes to human beings,scientific opinion. "

But I meant to pick Other.

I believe in reality that's what happened, microbes and cells and stuff but I believe Creation stories are metaphors on what really happened.

...if that makes sense...

[CleftOfLight]

The Question is How was the Universe Created.yet the poll answers focus on HUMans.How was the universe created it wasnt created.It was,is,and always will be.

[Enigma]

BANG!!! :D

[Morning Star]

first off, id like to point out that its not "The Christian God", in the Genisis story. If we are talking Monotheism, its the Jewish God, or Aberahamic God (since Judaism and Aberaham came before Christianity).

Actually, if we want to be literal about it; Christians, Jews & Muslims all worship the "Aberahamic God", or God of Abraham. They all recognize this God to be the Father God, the Christians believe that Jesus was his son and the Muslims believe that Muhammed was his prophet - but they all believe in the God of Abraham. They are all denominations of one large Death-Cult. Anyway - it as the Christian God in Genesis. It was also the Mormon God & the Muslim God. Of course - there is no evidence whatsoever that the Universe was created and therefore this is a moot topic. lol My bad. :)

[DeerWolf]

Combo of 1 and 3. I believe in the big bang. And I believe that the Divine said it is and it was. And every since The Creator has been watching his/her children grow and evolve and change. Maybe million and millions ago we were all microbes and maybe even dinosaurs.

[Luminessence]

I believe that God created the universe and started the process of evolution that eventually led to humans and all other forms of life.

[DamienDeville]

This is my own personal view,I have not proven or disproven it from a theological standpoint though,just merely my oppinion.
I think that the creation of our solar system(not nescassarly all) was some how brought into existence through what some theistic Satanist refer to has the god and goddess.And that life on this planet was also brought into existence through them.How and when I cannot truthfully say for I was not there at the time.Whether it was through evolution or by divine design like some religions claim I dont know neither can be proven with out a doubt....Does it matter,no not imo.

[Tobias]

first off, id like to point out that its not "The Christian God", in the Genisis story. If we are talking Monotheism, its the Jewish God, or Aberahamic God (since Judaism and Aberaham came before Christianity). However, Y-H-V-H also known as the One God, the Father, Aberahamic God, etc etc - Is traced to have origins in the Acient Sumarian Pantheon of Gods (A War God), and he was worshiped in the area of Ur Kasdim (today's Iraq), most likely by the Tribe/Family/Area where Aberaham was residing. Of course, later Aberaham traveled West towards Kena'an (Palastine/Israel), and a few genereations later - When his Grandchildren's children have become Monotheistic (since Issac, Jacob and their wives & kids werent yet completely Monotheistic) - did Y-H-V-H become the Hebrew/Jewish/Israelite People's one and only God. The unique point that actually marks the "official" beginning of Judaism is at Mount Sinai - When the Hebrews recieve the Torah.



So, if the Jews also "stole" their god from ancient Sumarian, why do call him the "Jewish God"?

And, isn't there plenty of evidence that the whole creation story was written during the Babalonian captivity, and at that time "borrowed" from some other religion?

[Doodlebug]

Other. I'm not really sure but I am a Theistic Evolutionist. :spinnysmi

[Doodlebug]

Oh, I guess the third option would have worked too. :)

[wolf]

I am probably way out of the mainstream on this one, but I think that all of the creation stories are correct.

Yes, even the one in The Book.

Creation as a process is infinite, expressed in infinite ways.

I don't see that there is any gross contradiction in the notion that the gods brought all that is into being, I don't think that there is any conflict between that notion and evolution either ... the spark of life is.

I readily admit that I'm a little wierd.

[oakowl]

I tend to believe in an ancient idea that there was first a void and the great divine spirit which is beyond our ability to understand created everything from his,her,its self including the Gods and Goddesses. That is why we should treat all people,animals,minerals, sacred because they are from the divine source. I know looking at everything around me in this fashion makes me closer to nature and all creation.

[Raidenmaru]

Combo of 1 and 3. I believe in the big bang. And I believe that the Divine said it is and it was. And every since The Creator has been watching his/her children grow and evolve and change. Maybe million and millions ago we were all microbes and maybe even dinosaurs.

I agree with options 1 and 3. I believe in evolution taking a part in our development, but also in some sort of external factor. This external factor is NOT necessarily divine, sentient, or corporal, but who knows?

The question I've ALWAYS had is: is there a true soul and consciousness which yield arbitrary decision, or is our "consciousness" merely a product of massive knowledge and acute awareness, our decisions merely deterministic products of the inputs provided? Also, while seeking food can be explained as a biological desire, what does the enjoyment of art mean?

Let's take that in the beginning, there was nothing. The universe was a static (and inherently deterministic) zero steadyspace governed by no principles of interaction. It's arguable whether irrationality (immeasurability - there is an infinite resolution to measurements) and/or entropy (unpredictability) is preordained. But naturally, it's a given that we didn't suddenly have rockets.

Somehow, somewhere, someone or something stuck in a deviation that was never supposed to happen. Why? It's something completely arbitrary... it could be the same factor that shaped the human (and animists: the universal) "soul".

Ok, now on to life. Life is simply a self-sustaining system, for example, plants process matter and store it as another matter. Whether we are using the biological definition of life or not, is IS possible for life (a reproducing, adapting) system to exist in any type of form that supports principles of behaviour, including energy not currently measurable. Such a form could also contain intelligence and a "soul" if we must use that oversimplified term. Referring to my introduction thread and other unsaid anecdotes, I do have reasons to believe in what we call the "supernatural" now.

And mythology. I don't think that the need to explain phenomena which cannot be understood is sufficient cause to write a HUGE, complex mythological system. I agree that mythology developed a certain way, but not out of complete randomness. It's certainly a
useful tool for understanding things.

Just because all of the above ideas correlate does not prove the existence or nonexistence of any dieties or beings. It just opens my mind to the idea that something "extra" COULD exist, and it's that possibility that leads me to select options 1 and 3.

(current song: Origa and Yoko Kanno, Rize (Rise))

[Willow_starr]

I believe that we evolved completely scientifically- I think it's harder to disagree in a world with so much scientifically proven.

However... something had to spark it. Some energy had to set it all in motion. I think that "everything" started with a little spark of energy from somewhere, and it carried on from there. :)

Same here. I voted "other"