is there a danger in names?

[story]

about 3 years ago now, i had a profound encounter in a dream. I won't bore you with the details, but I will say that the dream sent me off in about 18 different directions at once. Whoever, or whatever, i met seemed to have a very strong connection to me, and I damn near drove myself crazy trying to uncover its identity.
at the begining of the summer i had a conversation with a friend of mine, where i described the dream to him. He thought for a minute, and told me that I most likely should not be trying to put a name on what ever it was. His reasoning was simple: whatever name I attatch to it may a) be wrong and b) prove limiting in my relationship with it.
This made a lot of sense to me. So much sense in fact that i found myself questioning all the other names I used to dezcribe spiritual matters.
Obviously names are powerful. The heated debates in the "why womyn" thread is testimony to that. They are also nessacary, to a degree. but where does the need for names end, and when do they start to become a detriment?
My question is : are religious(or spiritual if you prefer) people limiting themselves and thier worldviews by the application of names?

[Myst]

Labels? Certainly. They can be detrimental in any way (spiritually or otherwise, as the womyn thread attests).

Spiritually, letting your conscious mind try to label something allows it to take control over your subconscious. Your conscious mind is so accustomed to taking control and so accustomed to classifications and beliefs you've learned for years (ie. faeries are make believe) that it will go so far as to block out anything else. Therefore it is detrimental to your contact with those things that cannot be so easily identified and classified..

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by story
about 3 years ago now, i had a profound encounter in a dream. I won't bore you with the details, but I will say that the dream sent me off in about 18 different directions at once. Whoever, or whatever, i met seemed to have a very strong connection to me, and I damn near drove myself crazy trying to uncover its identity.

The Ancient Egyptians (They were Pagans, but it was more fashionable back then) believed that knowing something's Name gave one great power over it. Perhaps the reverse of what you say is true - maybe you should be persuing it's name, for that will give you the power to understand and maybe control it.

All I know is that my more superstitious Vampire characters never use their real names, b/c if the wrong person gets their hands on your true name, well forget it babe, you're screwed!

- Illuminatus!

[Myst]

Originally posted by Illuminatus

All I know is that my more superstitious Vampire characters never use their real names, b/c if the wrong person gets their hands on your true name, well forget it babe, you're screwed!


Good point. It's also why some people don't give out their Craft name especially if they feel it was given to them by divinity...

[story]

Originally posted by Illuminatus


Perhaps the reverse of what you say is true - maybe you should be persuing it's name, for that will give you the power to understand and maybe control it.

All I know is that my more superstitious Vampire characters never use their real names, b/c if the wrong person gets their hands on your true name, well forget it babe, you're screwed!

- Illuminatus!

Hm. not sure how i feel about that. I guess if we as people(spirit entities, thought forms, vampire characters et. al.) have true names, it seems to follow that we would also have true selves. Not only that but unchanging ones (otherwise the name would always change as well). I think it also would suggest that we are capable of actually knowing this self.
A lot of mysticism deals with the idea of the true self, sufism and thelema are two that come to mind.
But the real question here is whether or not we can actually know another. I like to think we can, but i'm not sure. Either way, i still think it may be dangerous to jump to conclusions about the true nature of something.
As for the part about control, eh. I can't control my dog, let alone a spirtual entity that appears to be smarter than me.
Although i wouldn't mind having another chat....

[Myst]

I think the truth is everyone has a private real self that no one knows about. You probably have some secrets that even your closest familly and friends don't know about, right? I know I do. I also know there are parts of myself I don't even know - why I feel the way I do about certain things, or fears that I have that lay in my subconscious and aren't available to the conscious mind..... :)

[Earth Shadow~]

I have definately gotten tired of labels. I have dropped alot of them because most of the time I'm changing and at sometime or another I will be different than what I'm labeled as.

I find the word witch to be mysterious and rather undefinable. The word ecclectic describes my base personality. Since I was a kid I have been wierd :) and never really fit in. I never dress trendy, I'm on my own wavelength. This (so far) is the only label that I have not had a problem with.

Before, I found that my beleifs and thinking were limited to what I named myself. Dropping most labels has definately allowed me to think for myself and grow spirituality in any direction that I please.

But you know how the saying goes:

A rose by any other name, is still a rose.

[slvr_phoenix]

Originally posted by Earth Shadow~
A rose by any other name, is still a rose.
That was my thought on this whole topic. That a rose by any other name would still smell just as sweet.

Whatever name we put on something doesn't change what that something is.

IF our mind is one which limits itself by categorizing, stereotyping, or is otherwise programmed to relate to certain things in specific ways, THEN for those people, in those specific cases, a name or label can be counter-productive for them.

For every other case and person though, a name or label holds no more meaning than the paper it's printed on. (Or something like that.) What holds meaning is the person, place, or thing itself, not it's name.

And while some people believe that knowing a person's true name gives them power over that person, it's something that I don't fully believe. No one other than me has complete control of me. People may be able to use my name to send energy or spells my way, or try to influence me, but my mind is strong enough that ultimately I am under my and only my control.

[Lilu]

Originally posted by slvr_phoenix
And while some people believe that knowing a person's true name gives them power over that person, it's something that I don't fully believe. No one other than me has complete control of me. People may be able to use my name to send energy or spells my way, or try to influence me, but my mind is strong enough that ultimately I am under my and only my control.

That was my first thought on the name topic too - I don't fully believe that knowing someone's name gives me any more power over them, than it does them knowing mine. My belief is that people can only have complete power over you if you allow them to.

BB
Lilu

[Illuminatus]

In my experience, the True Name of someone can be used to substitute a connection to an individual, instead of having a more physical connection, like their hair or fingernails or a possession linked to them.

All I know is that I can scare the bejesus out of my ex-girlfriend just by reminding her she gave me a lock of her hair all those years back, which I still have. "Ohh remember I have your hair Katie, I can do magics on you" and she says "NO DON'T I'M SCARED" and a good laugh is had by all!! Well, just me actually! but it's a good laugh!

- Ill

[Myst]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
In my experience, the True Name of someone can be used to substitute a connection to an individual, instead of having a more physical connection, like their hair or fingernails or a possession linked to them.


Yup. That's been my experience too. Facing your true self and true name or having someone who knows it is said to be dangerous because then they have a vital link to you. Which is why some people keep a magickal name that is secret and unknown to anyone but themself and their deity. That's a name, not a label.

[slvr_phoenix]

And even then, all they can do is send energies and/or spells at you. It doesn't give them any ultimate power over you though.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Illuminatus
"Ohh remember I have your hair Katie, I can do magics on you" and she says "NO DON'T I'M SCARED" and a good laugh is had by all!! Well, just me actually! but it's a good laugh!


I can't believe none of you have reprimanded me for frightening the crap out of my ex :)

[Dolphin's Eye]

A name does hold power, and not only that which we give it.

How many times in life, have you met two diffrent people, in two diffrent places, who never had the slightest chance to meet one another, and yet, they are alike in character and looks and carry the same name? It happens to me ALL the time!

How many times have you found that someone has a name that completly doesn't match the name's meaning? Like Leo to a small very unlionish person? Happens alot of times too! Wrong name!

As for naming yourself in the Craft and inventing names, that's always the hardest part of the travell. Names hold the key to our imagination and also hold power. The feeling when you pronounce a strange combination of letters (like Arafell or Shayra), the image you get when you choose a name like "ForestBear", or "BlueFalcon", that opens up your imagination.

There's definatly alot more to say about the subject...

Blessed Be!

[Shadowolff]

about 3 years ago now, i had a profound encounter in a dream. I won't bore you with the details, but I will say that the dream sent me off in about 18 different directions at once. Whoever, or whatever, i met seemed to have a very strong connection to me, and I damn near drove myself crazy trying to uncover its identity.
at the begining of the summer i had a conversation with a friend of mine, where i described the dream to him. He thought for a minute, and told me that I most likely should not be trying to put a name on what ever it was. His reasoning was simple: whatever name I attatch to it may a) be wrong and b) prove limiting in my relationship with it.
This made a lot of sense to me. So much sense in fact that i found myself questioning all the other names I used to dezcribe spiritual matters.
Obviously names are powerful. The heated debates in the "why womyn" thread is testimony to that. They are also nessacary, to a degree. but where does the need for names end, and when do they start to become a detriment?
My question is : are religious(or spiritual if you prefer) people limiting themselves and thier worldviews by the application of names?
Good question. I do so agree with your friend's advice. (The ancient Hebrews felt that the name of God was too holy to be spoken. Not a bad point.)

Some people are only comfortable with neatly packaged catagories, a shorthand way of (not) thinking. They mistake labelling something for understanding it.

I have a LOT of trouble with names when talking about matters of the Spirit. If I'm talking with someone else, I can't know what connotations the names/words have for them.

God is real and alive to me; I am a follower of Christ -- but it's the religion of Christ I ascribe to, not the religion about Christ. (I cheerfully refer to myself as a heretic Christian.) I'm sometimes uncomfortable using "God" because that's interpreted as God according to official Christian doctrine and dogma and that's not necessarily the person I know.

Same thing with the word "Goddess". You know, the idea that you have to choose either the Christian deity or the Pagan one(s), and reject the other. God/dess is not a concept to me, but a Presence, and I cannot reject either without being forsworn!

My personal prayer is generally to the Great Mother. And to those who find allegiance to Her worthy of a stake-burning, I'd like to point out a passage from the Christian Handbook (not that anyone who thinks like that is likely to read this post):

The first book of the Bible, Genesis, says God created man(kind) "in his own image, male and female he created them". Well, guess what, folks -- I'm female. Seems like venerating the Great Mother fits right in there!

And anyway God/dess is both/and, not either/or. Whatever face you look upon is only a partial revelation. Answer the one who speaks to your heart --

and never forget that how we live matters more than what we say we believe. Loving ompassion, loving compassion.