Is it racist to...?

[Jolixte]

I saw a commercial about stamping out racisim and part of it was the sentence "That mexian is pretty smart" and then the word mexican was crossed out. I didn't know that was considered racist. I sometimes attach people's nationality to stuff. For example, I call my three chinese friends 'my chinese sisters'. I don't know, is that insulting?

[Jeleia]

I guess it depends on the person... Some people take affence to everything and might consider that rascist, but if your friends don't mind then there is no problem.

[Jolixte]

I also went to a school where I was a minority, and I never cared that they called me 'that white...(whatever)'

[Aedrais]

Personally, for me... it's like describing someone by the colour of their hair. "You know, the girl with dark eyes, and the dark brown hair... really tanned..."

If I ever describe someone by their race, it's more a distinguishing feature than a label. *shrugs* But some people are offended by it, I guess.

[teishabee]

Its only ever racism if its meant that way. But I like to describe people not including race.

[Shanti]

That sounds like its taking terminology way to far...let me see..
From America= American!!
From Europe=European!!
From Canada=Canadian!!
From Mexico=Mexician!!!

Yup, that comercial is a little over done in my book!!!!

[Jolixte]

That sounds like its taking terminology way to far...let me see..
From America= American!!
From Europe=European!!
From Canada=Canadian!!
From Mexico=Mexician!!!

Yup, that comercial is a little over done in my book!!!!
Thanks, I'm glad alone in what I thought.

[ap Dafydd]

Unless the commercial was implying that the person was saying "he's smart for a Mexican", which _would_ be racist (because it would be based on the premise that by default, Mexicans are thick!

But I do hate it when PC enforcers stop you from using perfectly inoffensive terms just because they have certain words in them. I almost wrote that it would be a black day when... but thought better of it!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Lunamoth]

There is a billboard (or was, I haven't driven that way for a bit) that is similar to this commercial. It says "He was a well-spoken black man" with the word "black" crossed out. I think in that case, it works better for what they're trying to get across. But the commerical version sounds like a swing and a miss.

[Élistariel]

not at all. It is simply a descriptive term. I'm from North Carolina, you can call me American, White, Caucasian, Redneck (even though I'm not), I really don't care. To me, it just sort of paints an image of what the person looks like. Although sometimes if I'm using the phrases myself I'll have to be more descriptive. Like when one says "Mexican" we usually visualize a latino person, like Jennifer Lopez for example. Okay, I know she's not Mexican, but it's just an example. Now, my problem comes from the fact that my definitions are like Shanti's. If you are of say, Irish, German, and Dutch descent and you were born and raised in Mexico, then to me, you are Mexican. More specifically a Mexican of Irish, German, and Dutch heritage.

[teishabee]

Your not suppose to say black or white board. But chalk board and marker board.

Its silyy. The people who make up these rules must infact be ashamed of themselves and they're trying to project it on others.

[Tajemnica]

I saw a commercial about stamping out racisim and part of it was the sentence "That mexian is pretty smart" and then the word mexican was crossed out.

Syaing "That Mexican is pretty smart" kind of implies "Wow, he's smart! Most Mexicans aren't!"

[Élistariel]

I know, teishabee. It's ridiculous. It's as though they are trying to make race something to be ashamed of. I am proud to be white, and I am proud to be able to live in the presence of other races. I don't go around wearing "White Pride" shirt or anything like that, because people always assume that means I think I'm better. I'm not, I'm not worse either. I don't care for the PC. In the long run it does the opposite of what it intended. I hate that people think "I'm proud to be white" means "I hate all other races" Uh, no it doesn't.

[Lunacie]

Unless the commercial was implying that the person was saying "he's smart for a Mexican", which _would_ be racist (because it would be based on the premise that by default, Mexicans are thick!

But I do hate it when PC enforcers stop you from using perfectly inoffensive terms just because they have certain words in them. I almost wrote that it would be a black day when... but thought better of it!

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

I haven't seen that ad, but I'd bet anything that was the point they were making.

"That Mexican is smart" implies that most Mexicans aren't.
"He is really smart" would be a compliment.

[SacredWithin]

I think the issue is interesting. In my town, a lot of the times, I don't hear the ethnicity being used when it is concerning a white person or a European. But if you're describing anyone else, the ethnicity is being used. Sometimes I may find it offensive from the people in my town because it's like if you're talking about someone and you're not using their ethnicity then they must automatically be white. Like white's a default or something. As an African-American in a predominately white/caucasean town, it feels offensive. However, I understand that if this is all that people are accustomed to, then I can see why they would use someone's ethnicity to try to describe them to their friends. Get my drift?

[Jolixte]

I haven't seen that ad, but I'd bet anything that was the point they were making.

"That Mexican is smart" implies that most Mexicans aren't.
"He is really smart" would be a compliment.
I guess, I just didn't see it that way.

[teishabee]

I think the issue is interesting. In my town, a lot of the times, I don't hear the ethnicity being used when it is concerning a white person or a European. But if you're describing anyone else, the ethnicity is being used. Sometimes I may find it offensive from the people in my town because it's like if you're talking about someone and you're not using their ethnicity then they must automatically be white. Like white's a default or something. As an African-American in a predominately white/caucasean town, it feels offensive. However, I understand that if this is all that people are accustomed to, then I can see why they would use someone's ethnicity to try to describe them to their friends. Get my drift?I think that if you described someone to me, I would assumed they where white. Only because I am white. If I was asian then I would think they were asian

If this rascist, or does it just seem so becus Im white and thinking it?

[SylverStar]

Some one from Argentinia or Panama might be offended if you called them mexican...possibly even chicanos. Don't know....I don't use the term Mexican unless I know for a fact they are from Mexico.

[banondraig]

I think that if you described someone to me, I would assumed they where white. Only because I am white. If I was asian then I would think they were asian

If this rascist, or does it just seem so becus Im white and thinking it?

i don't consider it racist, but others more sensitive than i am might. it all depends on knowing how to get along with people. i'm an extremely fair-skinned white person myself. one of my friends at work used to tease me about being anemic because i am so pale. finally i told him it was ok to get some sunglasses so he wouldn't have to squint anymore, and he didn't get mad. however, i would never say something like that to someone i didn't know well.

[SacredWithin]

I think that if you described someone to me, I would assumed they where white. Only because I am white. If I was asian then I would think they were asian

If this rascist, or does it just seem so becus Im white and thinking it?

To be honest... who knows? I think it depends on the majority of the people you grow up with. If you were a Mexican living in Mexico, you probably won't describe your family member as "The Mexican person over there" because everyone would assume that you are talking about a Mexican. This is the message I was trying to portray in my first post. It's all about majority and who is where. clearly, the majority wouldn't recognize this, but the others might.

[LadyTrinity]

Ive been called a Pork Chop by my friends jokingly cause im portuguese but I dont get mad _happydanc

[RogueSpirit]

I don't think that using the term Mexican is what was racist about that sentence. It's not the use of a person's ethnicity or nationality that is considered racist. It's making comments about a person in reference to their ethnicity or nationality that makes it seem like the person making the comment is surprised by something positive about the person. When you say that a Mexican is smart, it could be that you are implying that Mexicans aren't generally smart. It wasn't the part about the person being a Mexican that was the insult... it was the unspoken implication that most Mexicans are stupid (which they aren't).

[AuroraSilvermist]

Well, I wouldn't say something like that. To me, "That Mexican is pretty smart," is racist. Why? Because you're not looking at the subject as a person, but a Mexican. The fact that the topic of the sentence, which is about a person being smart, has nothing to do with the person's nationality, makes it racist, at least in my opinion. It's almost like saying, "He's pretty smart for a Mexican."


I call my three chinese friends 'my chinese sisters'. I don't know, is that insulting?

No, because they're Chinese, and you're making reference to that without any other implications. Actually, it's positive. You're calling your friends your "sisters." That's cool. Would you mind if they called you their [insert ethnicity here] sister? Probably not.

Is it a fine line? Yeah. I sometimes have a hard time teaching these morals to my own kids, because I grew up in a family where making racist statements was the norm. (I'm not even sure how my own thoughts regarding racism went in a different direction as that of the rest of my family, but they did.)

As an example, my dad has a bunch of Mexican friends, and Tony, who rents the upstairs apartment at my parents' farm, is Mexican. When he moved in, he asked permission to bring a bunch of chickens that he kept, along with some ducks and sheep. My mom wasn't crazy about the idea, but my dad agreed. :p Anyhow, my daughter was asking her grandpa one day, "How come Tony has so many animals?" My dad answered, "It's a Mexican thing." I got in his face about it saying it's NOT a "Mexican thing," it's a "Tony thing." I'm trying to raise my kids without racial stereotypes.

We could see race as a neutral thing--not good, not bad, just a fact of life. Or, ideally, we would recognize that our diverse ethnic heritages are sources of pride, and treat each ethnic group with respect. We are African, Irish, Mexican, Italian...what have you, and it just is what it is; our ethnicity speaks to where we come from, and our culture.

I was never so proud as when my son, while watching Men In Black (he was a preschooler at the time), couldn't remember the name of Will Smith's character and referred to him as, "The guy with the mustache." As a kid, I would have referred to him as, "The black guy." With each generation, we make some progress...at least if we want to.

[Acid Halo]

well really u shouldnt use a persons nationality to describe them or to point them out. not really racist, but there are people that dont like it. :thumbsup:

[ravynbynorthwynd]

that annoys me to no end.

since when is pointing out cultural differences "racist"?

like i get yelled at for saying "most mexicans have large families", when its culturally a true thing, you know what i mean?

[Acid Halo]

well we are in an age of political correctness and everyone needs to be treated with great sinsitivity, cuz now days you dont know who you are gonna offend and with what kinda statement. so its just best to try not to step on peoples feet if you know what i mean.

[Moriquenya]

I saw a commercial about stamping out racisim and part of it was the sentence "That mexian is pretty smart" and then the word mexican was crossed out. I didn't know that was considered racist. I sometimes attach people's nationality to stuff. For example, I call my three chinese friends 'my chinese sisters'. I don't know, is that insulting?

Maybe the person wasn't even Mexican. A number of people automatically assume that ANY Spanish-speaking person is Mexican or use that term to describe any person of Latin descent regardless of the fact that the person may actually be Peruvian, Spanish, Cuban, Brazillian, etc.

[Acid Halo]

thats a very good point, but thats not racial to make a mistake like that. But, NEVER call any person of hispanic origin what they are not, i.e. dont ever call a mexican person puerto rican, because they will not be happy. My wife is puerto rican and i have lots of friends that are hispanic and they all say the same thing.

[Mad Dame]

PC is, in my mind, a load of cow dung. eg. Nigga was a very racist term, only to be used in a derogotive manner, now you hear it everwhere, turn on the radio and there it is being rapped, hip hopped, sung whatever.
PC was invented for people who are far to sensitive, in my mind, get over it! Most of the terms used such as black, white, english, american, arab, mexican, australian, european are descriptive words, used by people to give a basic idea to whom ever they are talking to, yet now the PC police will jump on you if you say "you know the black guy on the corner is really nice, he helped me when my car broke down" bang! you're in PC trouble, all because you used the term black, you are now, a racist, I so don't think so.

[violet rain]

Well the term racist is a very touchy term to say the least. Terms you use to describe a person may be racist for one person and not for another..as far as calling your friends "my chinese sisters" as long as your friends don't find it racist I feel that its not a problem..now for putting other people into catagories I feel that hey unless you know every single person of that race then you really can't say most "..." have this or act this way because you really don't know.unless you have met everyone from that particular race.. but as far as saying the proper wording for a race unless its a racial slur shouldn't really be an issue like saying yeah "well this white female with short brown hair or well this black female with curly hair" if your describing the way a person looks to get a better image for the other person thats seems fine with me..but again it really depends on the person

[Arinya]

I see saying Mexican, black, Asian, whatever not as being racist but as being descriptive. If you're in a room with say 20 people and only 3 of them are Mexican it's a heck of a lot quicker to say "that mexican" then "that guy, no, the other guy. Okay he has black hair, no no that guy! To the left of him! Over there! Okay yeah that guy you've got it"
If I was in Mexico though I would say that mexican because it wouldn't help matters and the only response I'd get would be, "Okay...so you've narrowed it down to 100 people..."

[AuroraSilvermist]

I see saying Mexican, black, Asian, whatever not as being racist but as being descriptive. If you're in a room with say 20 people and only 3 of them are Mexican it's a heck of a lot quicker to say "that mexican" then "that guy, no, the other guy. Okay he has black hair, no no that guy! To the left of him! Over there! Okay yeah that guy you've got it"
If I was in Mexico though I would say that mexican because it wouldn't help matters and the only response I'd get would be, "Okay...so you've narrowed it down to 100 people..."

But there are a lot of different ways to point somebody out without using their ethnicity. I'm not saying it's such an awful thing to use it descriptively, but does it have to be THE descriptive factor? Hell, you could very well be WRONG. What if that person you're pointing out as "that Mexican" is actually Greek? My dark-haired, dark-skinned Greek friend hates automatically being branded Hispanic. I mean, why do people have to hang a tag on her just because of the way she looks, anyhow?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not a big fan of being politically correct. I agree with George Carlin--we keep "softening" our language; dumbing it down until we remove all the emotional impact, and our terminology becomes bland, but at least palatable for the majority of people. (Carlin talks about how "shell shock" in WW I became "battle fatigue" in WW II, and eventually, by the time we were in Vietnam, "post-traumatic stress disorder," a term so bland that all the honesty has been removed from it, as well as all the impact.) I'm all for honesty in language, and in all things. I can be honest to a fault, myself.

Why do we consider trying to see people as individuals and not just members of a certain ethnic group a form of political correctness run amok? I'm not going to, say, avoid calling a Mexican a Mexican, but there's no reason we have to identify people by their race alone. I believe we should be proud of our heritage, but ethnicity is one of many ways we identify one another. Too many of us stop looking at a peson once we've hung an ethnic a label on him.

[Raven Reed]

I think the issue is interesting. In my town, a lot of the times, I don't hear the ethnicity being used when it is concerning a white person or a European. But if you're describing anyone else, the ethnicity is being used. Sometimes I may find it offensive from the people in my town because it's like if you're talking about someone and you're not using their ethnicity then they must automatically be white. Like white's a default or something. As an African-American in a predominately white/caucasean town, it feels offensive. However, I understand that if this is all that people are accustomed to, then I can see why they would use someone's ethnicity to try to describe them to their friends. Get my drift?

I see this all the time in books... "Here's Bill, and Bob, his black neighbor." It bugs me, now that I am aware of it.

[Moon Daughter]

well, when i see someone on the street, i'll see a black man,
or a middle eastern woman.
i'm gonna see a rocker or a "hip-hopper"
a drug dealer or a businessman.

i'm not going to see a PERSON.
this is just the way it is. when i want to point out something to my friend walking with me, i'll say 'that black man over there' ...' that chinese woman'. am i denying the fact that they are persons? no. of course they are!
does it make it easier for me to define someone in speech by what i see? of course if does, otherwise my friend would have no clue which one of the men, women, or PERSONS i am talking about (* and the last thing i want to do is point).

' that mexican is smart'.
that guy is smart.
( smart for a guy that is...)
i think it's crap.
if a Mexican is smart, then a Mexican is smart. Not every Mexican is smart and not every Mexican is dumb, just like with any other nation, race, species etc.
and the whole politically correct thing...well...i like what George Carlin said about it :)

[AuroraSilvermist]

well, when i see someone on the street, i'll see a black man,
or a middle eastern woman.
i'm gonna see a rocker or a "hip-hopper"
a drug dealer or a businessman.

i'm not going to see a PERSON.

Yeah, that's my point exactly--you're not going to see a person, you're going to see a stereotype. That businessman in the Armani suit could be dealing drugs, not playing the stock market. The person you labeled a drug dealer could very well be some blue collar worker with a family of three who just happens to dress a certain way.


In my town, a lot of the times, I don't hear the ethnicity being used when it is concerning a white person or a European. But if you're describing anyone else, the ethnicity is being used. Sometimes I may find it offensive from the people in my town because it's like if you're talking about someone and you're not using their ethnicity then they must automatically be white. Like white's a default or something.

That's a VERY good point that so many people who scream about how we're all being too politically correct seem to miss. White is NOT the default setting for humanity. How come we tend to treat ethnicity as an US vs. THEM sort of scenario? There's OUR race...and everyone else?

[Moon Daughter]

well, it's not just ethnicity that's treated as 'us and them'.
it's most things ( incl. sexuality, political views, social class...)

if i were black, and i was talking about a white person, i'd say 'that white guy/girl'.
so white isn't always default ( not up in T.O. at least- in my opinion)

[Élistariel]

I'm a bit with MoonDaughter on this. I don't see the person. Unless I know them personally, that's impossible. I try not to judge, but I see what I see, however for me it's more of the clothes than thier race. If I were to see someone in a basketball jersey, with baggy britches, a large amound of jewelry, and a sun visor, I'd automatically think hip-hop. If I saw someone in a nicely ironed business suit, I'd think businessman. Clothes DO make the person. Clothes are a reflection of who we are, and while the man in Armani may be a crackdealer, he is also a businessman.

[sandra_the_green]

the only way i could see someone taking offense is if you called them a mexican when they are from somewhere in south america, or central america.......

[Arinya]

But there are a lot of different ways to point somebody out without using their ethnicity. I'm not saying it's such an awful thing to use it descriptively, but does it have to be THE descriptive factor? Hell, you could very well be WRONG. What if that person you're pointing out as "that Mexican" is actually Greek? My dark-haired, dark-skinned Greek friend hates automatically being branded Hispanic. I mean, why do people have to hang a tag on her just because of the way she looks, anyhow?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not a big fan of being politically correct. I agree with George Carlin--we keep "softening" our language; dumbing it down until we remove all the emotional impact, and our terminology becomes bland, but at least palatable for the majority of people. (Carlin talks about how "shell shock" in WW I became "battle fatigue" in WW II, and eventually, by the time we were in Vietnam, "post-traumatic stress disorder," a term so bland that all the honesty has been removed from it, as well as all the impact.) I'm all for honesty in language, and in all things. I can be honest to a fault, myself.

Why do we consider trying to see people as individuals and not just members of a certain ethnic group a form of political correctness run amok? I'm not going to, say, avoid calling a Mexican a Mexican, but there's no reason we have to identify people by their race alone. I believe we should be proud of our heritage, but ethnicity is one of many ways we identify one another. Too many of us stop looking at a peson once we've hung an ethnic a label on him.

I agree with you but I'm going to point out the quality that stands out most and seperates that person from the rest of the group. I could say the dark-skinned person to refer to the Mexican but that could be seen as even more racist. If they were wearing something unlike everyone else in the group I would say, "That guy in neon purple Hawaiian shirt" or the blond chick in the corner which is exactly what I am when I hang out with a group of my Asian friends.

Oh and the other point I wanted to make. Race isn't the biggest sterotype anymore. It is how someone dresses. If you see a black guy walking down the street in a business suit with a briefcase you're usually not going to assume he's up to no good, but if you see a white kid wearing super baggy pants and a huge shirt with a shaved head listening to rap music the thought does cross the mind that he is possibly up to no good.

[AuroraSilvermist]

I'm a bit with MoonDaughter on this. I don't see the person. Unless I know them personally, that's impossible. I try not to judge, but I see what I see, however for me it's more of the clothes than thier race. If I were to see someone in a basketball jersey, with baggy britches, a large amound of jewelry, and a sun visor, I'd automatically think hip-hop. If I saw someone in a nicely ironed business suit, I'd think businessman. Clothes DO make the person. Clothes are a reflection of who we are, and while the man in Armani may be a crackdealer, he is also a businessman.

So,that's not judging? Clothes make the person? Let's say you're working in a bank as a loan officer. Mr. Armani walks in looking for a loan. Without checking his credit, do you automatically suspect it's going to be spotless? Now, what about Mr. Baggy Britches? Are you going to automatically assume he's got some credit issues?

Yeah, me too, more than likely. But I don't have to like the fact that I'm prone to judge on first impressions, no matter how inaccurate they may be. And I can try to change that in myself. I don't have to just accept that this is the way things work.

[Élistariel]

and what of a conversation between two people of different races? How would you describe another person then? I was a good acquaintance with a black girl (I'm white) in a class I had. She had the biggest smile ever, a very cheery girl. Anyhow, when I wanted to ask her the name of someone in my class I'd mention a personality trait they had (we were a very open class), if she couldn't figure out who I meant, I would then use where they sat, and their race as a last resort. I think it is perfectly fine to use race as a descriptive term, just be careful, and don't be TOO descriptive. Black, White, Asian, Hispanic... things like that are fine. Redneck, Yank, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Chinese are not. Unless you have walked up to them and asked them.

I know people in England and other countries refer to Americans as Yanks. Do NOT call me a Yank. I live in the south, and while I may not be happy about my southern heritage, I am proud of what it has helped us to learn. I am a Southerner. Do NOT call me a Redneck either. I don't own a truck, I've never been mudding, and I loathe tobacco products of all sorts, as well as beer.

[Élistariel]

So,that's not judging? Clothes make the person? Let's say you're working in a bank as a loan officer. Mr. Armani walks in looking for a loan. Without checking his credit, do you automatically suspect it's going to be spotless? Now, what about Mr. Baggy Britches? Are you going to automatically assume he's got some credit issues?

Yeah, me too, more than likely. But I don't have to like the fact that I'm prone to judge on first impressions, no matter how inaccurate they may be. And I can try to change that in myself. I don't have to just accept that this is the way things work.

I never said it wasn't judging. I said I try not to, not that I don't. It's human nature. I make no assumptions about financial situations. Some jerseys cost more than a good suit. I make judgements of their personal interests, and life styles. If I did work in a bank they'd each get the same treatment, and I would check both of thier credit records thoroughly. Mr.Armani may only have two business suits, and a ton of Wal-Mart clothes, while
Mr.Baggy Britches may own 200 $80 jerseys and own stock. All I assume is that Mr.Armani has some type of office job, or works for a business or a company, while Mr.Baggy Britches likes hip hop and rap, and maybe works in the music industry, or some such.

[AuroraSilvermist]

and what of a conversation between two people of different races? How would you describe another person then? I was a good acquaintance with a black girl (I'm white) in a class I had. She had the biggest smile ever, a very cheery girl. Anyhow, when I wanted to ask her the name of someone in my class I'd mention a personality trait they had (we were a very open class), if she couldn't figure out who I meant, I would then use where they sat, and their race as a last resort.

I completely agree. You're noticing things like personality. What I'm talking about is sticking a person with a stereotype (be it racial, cultural, classist, whatever...) and stopping right there. You don't want people labeling you a redneck and assuming you live in a trailor, drive a truck, or have a bunch of coonhounds sleeping on your front porch. Every single person has a lot more going on beneath the surface than what any of us see with a first impression, so it's wrong of us to just automatically draw conclusions.

[Moriquenya]

All I assume is that Mr.Armani has some type of office job, or works for a business or a company, while Mr.Baggy Britches likes hip hop and rap, and maybe works in the music industry, or some such.

Those are still stereotypes. What if Mr. Armani is a professional thief/crook working a con or stole that suit? What if Mr. Baggy Britches has taken a day off from his usual office job and is dressed down and running errands on his day off?

[Élistariel]

Those are still stereotypes. What if Mr. Armani is a professional thief/crook working a con or stole that suit? What if Mr. Baggy Britches has taken a day off from his usual office job and is dressed down and running errands on his day off?

I never said they weren't. But when you wear certain clothes you need to expect certain reactions, that's just a fact of life right now. One day we'll get past it, but we are years from it.

[Xentor]

I saw a commercial about stamping out racisim and part of it was the sentence "That mexian is pretty smart" and then the word mexican was crossed out. I didn't know that was considered racist. I sometimes attach people's nationality to stuff. For example, I call my three chinese friends 'my chinese sisters'. I don't know, is that insulting?

Just skipping the entire thread to make a quick observation:

I've noticed similar conduct, beit more out of political correctness than out of act against racism. For instance: "That's one smart woman!" would be politically incorrect, because it would send the message that women normally wouldn't be smart.

Similarly, "She didn't get where she is just by flaunting her good looks" would be politically incorrect, because it would assume that the average woman is nothing more than a barbie doll.

Before long, "mommy" doesn't stay home to take care of the kids (provided that "daddy" makes enough money to have "mommy" stay at home at all), they're all "parental units". Because describing mommy and daddy like that would only reinforce the thought of role patterns and gender behavioursim.

[Raven Reed]

Before long, "mommy" doesn't stay home to take care of the kids (provided that "daddy" makes enough money to have "mommy" stay at home at all), they're all "parental units". Because describing mommy and daddy like that would only reinforce the thought of role patterns and gender behavioursim.


So what's wrong with stay at home dads? I have known several. Works just as well.

[Aurin]

(Haven't, admittedly, read the discussion - just responding to the first post)

I think the issue is that in the example "That mexican is pretty smart" you're singling out that particular member as pretty smart -- thereby associating that the rest of mexicans are not which may be considered racist. We have similiar billboards around here with mexican replaced by "black man".

In YOUR case I see no problems with "My chinese sisters" - You're defining a group of people, not really stereotyping them. It would be kind of like saying "My sorority sisters" or "My older sisters" - You specifying -which- sisters.

[Sequoia]

(First off, I will admit that I am slightly "racist". Big admission, there. I'll probably get flamed for it. So I'll explain once, and only once: My "racist" perceptions are based entirely upon my own experience, and I tend to give *the individual* the doubt. I'm not violently "OMG HE'S *skin colour/defining feature* OMG EVIL" racist. I just tend to be wary around certain types of people. Some would call that 'racist'. It's just my life experience so far. I wouldn't get to know someone, and still think of them a certain way. It is simply that I have seen WAY too many firsthand examples over my whole life that suggest that certain stereotypes may have been popularized for a reason - they were frequently observed.)

That said, I think the majority of stereotypes are total BS. EX: "That N-word over there is nothin' but trouble, he'll steal as soon as he'll look at you." Or "That white kid's nothing but a goody-goody with rich parents and a free ticket in life." Or "Why does Ling-May get a scholarship? *Everybody knows* that Asians are smarter and have an unfair advantage at education." Or "That Goth girl over there is always wearing black; I bet she wants to kill herself." Or "That guy in the Armani suit- he must be one hell of a cutthroat in the corporate world. Bet he has no morals at all."

How many of those do you think are true?

********

Flipside- I'm really tired of people saying "You can't judge anything or anyone!! If you make ONE JUDGEMENT about someone before you get to know them, you are RACIST!"

What the heck am I supposed to do, walk around with my hands over my eyes and cotton in my ears? Am I supposed to trust a man dressed in rags with trash and needles around him to take care of my child? Should I buy a car from someone I know with no paperwork, no records, just cash and he's gone? Should I have sex with someone without a question, because he says he loves me and is clean? Should a child trust someone to touch their genitals, since there is no true way to tell a person's character intially until you get to know them? Should I automatically trust someone that they know what's best for me in any given situation?

I could go on. But I think you see. If everyone made absolutely NO JUDGEMENTS whatsoever, it would be chaos. Anarchy.

For those of you who consider yourselves non-judgemental: Would you trust a random hobo with your baby?

Why not?

I mean, we aren't supposed to judge a person on how they look, right?

Certain prejudgments are natural, and are a safety mechanism of the human race. If you saw someone with festering sores, you might feel revulsion or the compulsion to avoid them. This instinct would help prevent you from possibly contracting those sores. If you saw someone who was dressed in dark clothing at night, circling a neighbour's house, you would probably assume it was a burglar, and call the police. If you saw a person with white hair, you would probably think they were old.

Sex, height, features, traits, skin tones, clothing, hair colours, facial shapes, body types, accents, languages, religion, and body language are just a few things that are commonly used (usually completely unconsiously) to identify, relate to, or assess a person or people. Looking at a human being with breasts, long hair, and no noticable package between the legs and thinking "woman" is not sexist. Meeting a person with tanned skin, dark hair, and a thick accent and thinking "latino" is not racist. Seeing a woman with almond eyes, dark straight hair, and a petitie build passing on the street, and thinking "asian" is not racist. Talking to a person on the phone, who is speaking heavily with 'ebonics', and calling themselves the N-word and thinking "black" isn't racist. Watching a television program, with an older woman speaking with a British accent and thinking "English" (or possibly English-speaking European) is not racist.

When people are offended by calling something a "blackboard"... When it's wrong to call someone "black" or "latino" or "asian" if that's what they are, but it's okay to say "white"... When calling yourself a derogatory term and singing about it along with rape and advocating protectionless sex and theivery and it's considered a cultural icon, yet people scream bloody murder that it's another race's fault the public thinks that culture is that way... When people get offended that witnesses describe the suspect as "hispanic" or "african-american", but not if it's "caucasian"... When children of certain cultures are taught their own language/dialect in public schools, and yet complain as young adults that they weren't taught enough English to succeed in the business world or college...

When it's wrong to assume a man in ragged clothing who is intoxicated and shouting at invisible things may be a threat to himself and others...

This is when I really have to grab "you" all by "your" collars and shake "you". The whole darn public. Especially of America. Rediculous overcompensation. Why can't I be offended if someone calls me "white"?

Oh gosh, dear me. Might it be that I am white? Dear lord, not the adjectives. Please, oh merciful God, not the adjectives!!!

What is wrong with this picture?! Can anybody guess?

[Gypsy Vanner]

It's really discouraging to walk into a community that one could assume contains a large number of magic practitioners and in the second thread perused discover that a signifigant percentage of them not only have no idea about the power of words, but are actively hostile to the concept.

Defending "That Mexican is smart!" as identical to "He's smart" or "Jose is smart" or "The dude over there in the bandana is smart!" makes it pretty obvious that someone doesn't really understand the language being spoken.

[Sequoia]

Defending "That Mexican is smart!" as identical to "He's smart" or "Jose is smart" or "The dude over there in the bandana is smart!" makes it pretty obvious that someone doesn't really understand the language being spoken.

What if Jose is Mexican, and proud of his heritage? Is it still wrong? What if he calls himself Mexican?

Or is it like the n-word? It's okay to say "Mexican" if you are Mexican, but not otherwise?

Is "That girl is smart!" just as offensive? "That boy is smart!"? "That dog is smart!"? "That pineapple is tastey!"?

Oh no- I've had a revelation. I think I'm racist against dogs and pinapples.

[TWILIGHTSKY]

Just skipping the entire thread to make a quick observation:

I've noticed similar conduct, beit more out of political correctness than out of act against racism. For instance: "That's one smart woman!" would be politically incorrect, because it would send the message that women normally wouldn't be smart.

Similarly, "She didn't get where she is just by flaunting her good looks" would be politically incorrect, because it would assume that the average woman is nothing more than a barbie doll.

Before long, "mommy" doesn't stay home to take care of the kids (provided that "daddy" makes enough money to have "mommy" stay at home at all), they're all "parental units". Because describing mommy and daddy like that would only reinforce the thought of role patterns and gender behavioursim.
I can't stand political correctness, when it gets so carried away.
When children look at their Mom and Dad, they DO see a difference! It doesn't matter which one works out of the house. Moms and Dads just react differently! When I was a kid, my Mom could earn more than my Dad, so he stayed home with us. He took us fishing, and we were with him when he was doing the other "guy" things, he also cleaned the house and cooked our meals. Mom didn't do a lot around the house as far as that, but she took us on picnics and to the (live) theater, and did lots of "womanly" things with us.

Who are people thinking their going to offend when they say something about "mommy" staying home? The woman? Or are they thinking that children are going to grow up thinking that men and women have only certain roles that they can or are allowed to fill?
Isn't that the parents' responsibility to nurture all of their childrens' potential?

Boys and Girls NATURALLY react differently to things. My girl loves to play with dolls- she plays with trucks, too, she's just not as interested in them. My boy will cuddle a baby doll lovingly, then happily play with balls and cars for much longer. I never pushed girl/boy toys on either of them, they just are biologically driven to them.

Political correctness and racism get pretty muddled together, too. I don't think you should look down on someone because they're a different race- that just seems stupid to do that. A good person is a good person no matter what, and a creep is a creep.
To pretend that there is NO difference in the whole of the races makes no sense to me, either. One isn't better than the other, but each is slightly different- something that makes humans pretty interesting. Then you have geographical differences and cultures that should be embraced.

What would these political police have, the whole world as one cookie cut-out, uniformly dressed,boring entity?

[SacredWithin]

Oh and the other point I wanted to make. Race isn't the biggest sterotype anymore. It is how someone dresses.

Depends on where you live...

[SacredWithin]

What if Jose is Mexican, and proud of his heritage? Is it still wrong? What if he calls himself Mexican?

Or is it like the n-word? It's okay to say "Mexican" if you are Mexican, but not otherwise?

Is "That girl is smart!" just as offensive? "That boy is smart!"? "That dog is smart!"? "That pineapple is tastey!"?

Oh no- I've had a revelation. I think I'm racist against dogs and pinapples.

The point is, you cannot assume on looks, that gets you no where. Simple as that.

[AuroraSilvermist]

Flipside- I'm really tired of people saying "You can't judge anything or anyone!! If you make ONE JUDGEMENT about someone before you get to know them, you are RACIST!"

What the heck am I supposed to do, walk around with my hands over my eyes and cotton in my ears? Am I supposed to trust a man dressed in rags with trash and needles around him to take care of my child? Should I buy a car from someone I know with no paperwork, no records, just cash and he's gone? Should I have sex with someone without a question, because he says he loves me and is clean? Should a child trust someone to touch their genitals, since there is no true way to tell a person's character intially until you get to know them? Should I automatically trust someone that they know what's best for me in any given situation?

I could go on. But I think you see. If everyone made absolutely NO JUDGEMENTS whatsoever, it would be chaos. Anarchy.

For those of you who consider yourselves non-judgemental: Would you trust a random hobo with your baby?

Why not?

I mean, we aren't supposed to judge a person on how they look, right?

I see the point you're trying to make, and you made it very well, but...I don't think anyone here is saying that nobody should ever judge a person on a first impression; we all do that. I'm not sure there's any way around it, either, or that there should be a way around it. You're right, it's a safety mechanism. We live in a world full of strangers, essentially, and we're constantly forced to make snap decisions to safeguard ourselves. If I'm putting something in the trunk of my car and a man, with one hand hidden in his jacket pocket, comes running toward me out of the darkness, you can bet your azz I'm gonna slam that trunk and make a dive for the car--and LOCK it faster than you can blink!--without taking time to consider whether or not the threat was real or imagined. And I don't care whether that man was white, black, or any color in-between; I'm getting out of the way of a perceived threat.

Let a hobo watch over my kids? Well...

My parents took in a homeless man in his mid-60's named Bob. They offered him a one-room apartment in which to live, practically rent free. (He pays about $50 a month out of his social security income.) Your first impression of Bob would be that he's not trustworthy--he doesn't bathe but once a month, if that (and yes, you sure can smell it), he wears his clothes day and night until they're so soiled they could stand up in a corner by themselves (at which point he buys some new ones), he sleeps sitting up on the end of his bed, drives a lawn tractor instead of a car, and he occasionally talks to himself. But I also happen to know that, despite his being unable to read or handle real-world skills, he's smart and articulate and kinder than most human beings I've met. And yes, I HAVE let him watch my kids for a half hour or so when I had to run out because of an emergency. I wouldn't let him stay with them for any great length of time because he's unable to operate a phone or handle an emergency situation, but I would trust him to guard those kids with his own life. He's a GOOD man.

That being said, I wouldn't trust ANY stranger with my kids--from a hobo to Mr. Armani to Missus-freakin'-Doubtfire. That's really not a reasonable question for determining whether somebody is judgmental or not.

All anyone is saying is exactly what you initially said about stereotypes--don't always assume that you know what's under a person's surface based solely on the color of their skin or their physical appearance. Nobody said not to protect yourself or be wary based on a first impression; it's just when those first impressions linger and become absolutes in a person's mind that it becomes a problem.

[Phoenix Blue]

The point is, you cannot assume on looks, that gets you no where. Simple as that.
I must've missed where she made the assumption.

How about this: I say, "That Mexican is smart." If I'm talking about you, and you find that offensive, tell me so I won't say it again. Otherwise, I'm not going to pop a blood vessel worrying about it.

[banondraig]

I must've missed where she made the assumption.

How about this: I say, "That Mexican is smart." If I'm talking about you, and you find that offensive, tell me so I won't say it again. Otherwise, I'm not going to pop a blood vessel worrying about it.

thank you!!!

so many people assume that others "should know better" or should somehow pick up on what they want, even though they won't, for whatever reason. come out and say it. then they get offended and spend a lot of emotional energy licking preventable wounds. why?

[Sephiroth]

i dont think its rasist :fpeace:

[NarYave]

depends on the person...

[Sequoia]

Let a hobo watch over my kids? Well...

My parents took in a homeless man in his mid-60's named Bob. They offered him a one-room apartment in which to live, practically rent free. (He pays about $50 a month out of his social security income.) Your first impression of Bob would be that he's not trustworthy--he doesn't bathe but once a month, if that (and yes, you sure can smell it), he wears his clothes day and night until they're so soiled they could stand up in a corner by themselves (at which point he buys some new ones), he sleeps sitting up on the end of his bed, drives a lawn tractor instead of a car, and he occasionally talks to himself. But I also happen to know that, despite his being unable to read or handle real-world skills, he's smart and articulate and kinder than most human beings I've met. And yes, I HAVE let him watch my kids for a half hour or so when I had to run out because of an emergency. I wouldn't let him stay with them for any great length of time because he's unable to operate a phone or handle an emergency situation, but I would trust him to guard those kids with his own life. He's a GOOD man.

I just *knew* somebody was going to bring in a "But but but, I know a good hobo!" story. :p

I know that there are good hobos and bad preschools. But the point is that people make judgements every second of their lives, usually to protect the lives of themselves and those they love. Chances are, that a random preschool would probably be better than a random hobo. You might get to know a school and find it terrible, and get to know a hobo and find him/her to be wonderful. But honestly, we're talking about spur-of-the-moment judgements. And if you didn't automatically think "Gee, a diseased alcoholic on the street might not be as good for my child as a clean, safe classroom", well, CPS might be getting a few phone calls, if you know what I mean.

We teach our children to judge. How many times have we told our kids not to take candy or rides from strangers? How do you know that the stranger is malicious? You don't. But since you don't know him, and your child doesn't know him, they must make that pre-judgement. That's prejudice. To pre-judge.

There are good and bad people in every walk of life- the point is that you MUST make some kind of judgement on an individual when your paths cross. It can be anything from "He looks like a high school student, so he probably is one." to "She has almond eyes and a slender build, she's probably asian." Yes, there are extremes ("He's wearing baggy pants, he must be in a gang and lead a life of crime.") But most "prejudices" are there to protect you. Some people call this common sense.

Children aren't offended when we call them "Good boy!" or "Good girl!" or tell them they are "One smart kid!", yet we are descriminating based on gender and age, according to PC-ness. If the kid isn't offended, why should we tell them they should be?

Honestly. "White? How dare you. I'm Caucasian, thank you very much." This sounds rediculous, doesn't it? So why should "black" be any different? I've heard so many people get offended over the term "African-American." Africa? They weren't born in Africa. (Well, there are a few, in which case if they are citizens, they're probably a bit offended by that too. They worked hard for their citizenship.)

Am I a Californian-American? A Caucasian-American? British-American? Welsh-American? Scottish-American? These are some of my 300-year old descendants. Heck, my Scottish heritage is about 150 years more recent than most transportation of African slaves. Why aren't I "Scottish-American"? Because I was born here? Gee...

Do people in other countries call black people "African-Brits" or "African-Swedes"? Wow, that sounds so offensive, doesn't it?

How does tacking on your country's name make it any better? "You're different, but uh, you're equal. Different, though. That's why your country of descent is included, even though it has been generations."

In a world of light, all objects are defined by shape and colour. In a world of sound, all things are defined by tone, pitch, variance, and in the case of humans, language and accent. What is wrong with the adjective "black"? Or would you prefer "brown"? I'm not quite the colour white- more of a rather pale peach-y colour. Some "white" people are very pink, others tanned, others wear makeup to actually look truly white. I know plenty of "black" people who are more of a chocolate brown, or even some who are as light as a tan.

I suppose I really don't see why people get so offended at mere adjectives. I take school tests. I have to bubble in "white/caucasian". So what? It doesn't magically make me do any better or any worse. It's a bubble next to my name. If kids are getting psyched over that, it's not an issue of race, but of anxiety and a lack of self-esteem. That didn't come from the word. It came from the attitude.

Taking out certain words which are perfectly viable in nearly all situations doesn't fix a cultural problem. You have to get rid of the attitude. People will just find new ways to say it.

Either that, or invent a word that doesn't involve any sort of colour at all. Let's pretend White people are "Shmoogles" and black people are "Arkens" and Asians are "Liliays" and make up a few more silly names for the other races. Pretty soon, you're going to hear punk kids talking about how "the Shmoogles are holding us back", you'll hear wary businessmen saying "Those punk Arken kids... probably off to commit a crime". You'll probably hear some radical "Commie Liliays! Go back to your 'motherland'!"

Let's face it. Jerks will be jerks. Bigots will be Bigots. Is it really anything to do with the word? Especially when a certain culture uses it themselves to describe themselves? I'm White. I'm a woman. I'm a lot of things. It's not the words.