Greek/Roman pantheon

[Jolixte]

If even some ancient greeks used the roman names interchangably with their gods names, how can hard polytheists say they are different gods? Unless the Greeks were mistaked.

[seekerofknwoledge]

i guess it depends on how you're meaning the gods. the gods' names are interchangeable, but they also can describe two different dieties. for example (and please no big mythology buffs kill me, i'm not sure exactly about this story), artemis is the greek goddess, and epitomizes chastity and the maiden aspect. however, if i remember correctly, diana has a daughter. (again, i'm not the best, so please don't attack me.) also, it depends on personal feelings. i am a hellenistic pagan, so my patrons are the greek gods. now even though diana may be the roman name for artemis, it still feels awkward using that. similarily, which apollo and lucifer (in theory) are the same god, my mind gives them separate connotations. i don't know if that helps.-seeker

[DebLipp]

If even some ancient greeks used the roman names interchangably with their gods names, how can hard polytheists say they are different gods? Unless the Greeks were mistaked.

Because they weren't the same gods. You can't flip through one schoolbook on mythology and think you understand the entire history of Greek and Roman Paganism!

Here's a very short version for you:

The Romans had their gods, and the Greeks had theirs. The Romans had many gods that were simply "qualities" or things; Fortuna, for example, is the Goddess of good luck. She has no stories or mythos, she's just the quality of fortune. There are many, many such Roman gods.

The Greeks had fewer specific gods, but the gods had more fleshed-out stories.

The Romans became highly influenced by the Greeks, whom they saw as enormously learned. They adapted Greek stories and assigned them to cognate gods, so that stories of Artemis were told of Diana, stories of Zeus were told of Jupiter, and so on. But the gods were not identical. The two cultures had very different attitudes towards war, for example, and Ares and Mars are very different.

[Theres]

If even some ancient greeks used the roman names interchangably with their gods names, how can hard polytheists say they are different gods? Unless the Greeks were mistaked.
i think you have this a bit backwards... the Greek pantheon came first.
also, i doubt you will find many ancient Greek sources that use the Roman names. that is usually found in later references.
further, i don't think the Romans thought of their Gods as being the same as the Greek Gods. we might associate Diana with Artemis, Mercury with Hermes, etc, but they are really quite distinct. mythologists between then and now have done nobody any favors by perpetuating this error, but that doesn't mean that the modern scholar can't (with some work) separate them again.

you must also realise that the Romans assimilated many of the cultures they 'conquered', and that included their religions. this explains how the Egyptian goddess Aset became the Roman goddess Isis.

[Theres]

wow, i guess the floodgates opened! :lol:

[Jolixte]

Because they weren't the same gods. You can't flip through one schoolbook on mythology and think you understand the entire history of Greek and Roman Paganism!

Here's a very short version for you:

The Romans had their gods, and the Greeks had theirs. The Romans had many gods that were simply "qualities" or things; Fortuna, for example, is the Goddess of good luck. She has no stories or mythos, she's just the quality of fortune. There are many, many such Roman gods.

The Greeks had fewer specific gods, but the gods had more fleshed-out stories.

The Romans became highly influenced by the Greeks, whom they saw as enormously learned. They adapted Greek stories and assigned them to cognate gods, so that stories of Artemis were told of Diana, stories of Zeus were told of Jupiter, and so on. But the gods were not identical. The two cultures had very different attitudes towards war, for example, and Ares and Mars are very different.
I'm sorry if I offended you. I was reading greek tradgedies, and noticed it, and I was just curious.

[DebLipp]

you must also realise that the Romans assimilated many of the cultures they 'conquered', and that included their religions. this explains how the Egyptian goddess Aset became the Roman goddess Isis.

With all respect, Theres, Isis is a Greek name, not Roman.

[Anubis RainHawk]

Well said, Deb Lipp.

I would also like to add that the Romans were infulenced by many cultures. For example, Jupiter was an Eturscan deity, I believe, how was adopted by the Romans. I would assume that much of the Greek pantheon was affect by the Hellenistic Civilization. I think that both pantheons changed as the people changed. That's natural with all cultures, though.

Anubis RainHawk

[Theres]

With all respect, Theres, Isis is a Greek name, not Roman.
ummm, yeah... that's what i meant. thanks (hard to type and not burn the dinner at the same time!).

[Theres]

I would assume that much of the Greek pantheon was affect by the Hellenistic Civilization. I think that both pantheons changed as the people changed. That's natural with all cultures, though.
i think this might be backwards too.
'Hellenic' (or Hellenistic) generally refers to post-Alexandrian Greece (ie; after the forth century BCE). and of course the Greek pantheon was in place LONG before that.

[Jolixte]

Ok, maybe the gods in the stories were messed up because it clearly used Bacchos for Dionysus and Diana for Artemis.

[Theres]

Ok, maybe the gods in the stories were messed up because it clearly used Bacchos for Dionysus and Diana for Artemis.
what did?
i'm sorry, but what are you refering too?

[Jolixte]

what did?
i'm sorry, but what are you refering too?
The greek tradgedies I was reading.

[Theres]

then i would suggest trying a different translation. i can't imagine Diana turning up in any original Greek text.
not only are the names not interchangeable (as you suggested in your initial post ;) ), but they aren't even the same goddess!

[Anubis RainHawk]

'Hellenic' (or Hellenistic) generally refers to post-Alexandrian Greece (ie; after the forth century BCE). and of course the Greek pantheon was in place LONG before that.

I completely agree. But like I said, the pantheon changed as the people changed. For example, the Roman god Mars was a simple god of the plains and turned into the god of war.

While we're on the subject of Greco-Roman religion, why was Diana and Artemis worshipped as mother goddesses? From much of my research, the have been called virgin goddesses. I read that Artemis asked her father, Zeus, to be a maiden forever. If this is true, how could they be mother goddesses?

Anubis RainHawk

[Jolixte]

then i would suggest trying a different translation. i can't imagine Diana turning up in any original Greek text.
not only are the names not interchangeable (as you suggested in your initial post ;) ), but they aren't even the same goddess!
I will, thanks for clearing that up.

[TYRRHENUS]

While we're on the subject of Greco-Roman religion, why was Diana and Artemis worshipped as mother goddesses?They weren't. These are modern interpretations.

Burgundy Nightsong, my advice to you:
Begin with Greek and/or Roman historians.
Then the philosophers.
Finally, the poets.

If you really want to get into the classics, you might want to start at text-kit (http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/) and pick up some Greek/Latin. Even a basic understanding of one of these languages will help avoid misleading translations.

Bonum fortunum valeque bene.

[Mnemosyne]

Good advice, Tyhrrenus! If you want to know the connection between the Greeks and Romans, look at it from a historical point of view. Burgundy Nightsong, also if you're interested in the classics, I recommend two of my favorite authors, Homer and Ovid.

Ok, I know that I've done this before, but I have to put a link to Tyhrrenus' informative thread. He brings up the point that the Romans did not "borrow" deities from the Greeks.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=39209

[-Sky-]

I'm sorry if I offended you. I was reading greek tradgedies, and noticed it, and I was just curious.
Which greek tragedies are you reading?Because the greek tragedies of Sophocles,Euripides and the 3rd one(can't write his name in english) was written BEFORE the invasion of the Romans and they only inluded the names of our Gods,the Greek Gods which came first.
And I think Isis was an egyptian Goddess whose worshipping came later to Greece....

~Anna

[Gede]

MM~
The Romans have always been known to critically assess a foreign culture through the facets of their own, thus it was much simpler for Caeser and his lot to simply equate the deities they encountered with deities of a similar nature in their own pantheon as they did throughout the campaign in Gaul and Britain i.e. Sulis-Minerva is one of the concoctions that derived from such a process.

Namaste, Gede...

[Aidron]

There is also a good deal of bad blood between Greek and Roman culture, I feel. The greeks did have their gods assimilated-among other things-so in terms of cultural energy, mixing the two I no longer do out of respect for both respective cultures, and especially because I have been instructed in meditations not do so by my greek patrons.

The same could be said of many cultures, however, such as Egyptian and Greek possibly. It's an individual choice when it comes down to it, but you should be made aware of how the cultures interacted or you may wind up in the midst of some divine melodrama-whether you believe the gods are actual individual personalities or simply names for specific energies-the cultural negativity between the two may cause you problems.

In turn, as it was pointed out, Greek and Roman deities while similar given that Greek deities were used as a foundation for the Roman ones (as far as history can tell up to this point-and I say this so I don't wind up putting my foot in my mouth in the future if some new discovery is made), but they are rarely so similar you cannot tell them apart with even an average bit of research, and are never identical.

Take Athena and Minerva for example. Athena was viewed more as a Goddess that governed law, order, and justice, and Minerva is usually more closely associated with science, the healing arts, and so forth. While they both governed wisdom and many other common aspects or ideals, it's almost as if comparing Amaterasu (Japanese Shinto sun Goddess) and Helios (Greek sun God)-both were sun deities, so they do have many things in common as a result, but are also just as different as they are similar.

[Ojuice5001]

I have always considered that the Roman gods are the same as the Greek gods. That is, the Roman names are, by and large, other names for the Greek gods. It's true that the names were around all the way back to the Etruscans, before the influence of the Greeks. But in the classical period, when the writings of the Greeks were well-known, most Romans did indeed think of a name like Venus as being "equivalent" to Aphrodite. So what is the explanation for this? Were the Romans just being sloppy? Is this modern understanding of them wrong? If those explanations are rejected, it seems to me that the Roman gods are the same as the Greeks.

[Athena-Nadine]

Which greek tragedies are you reading?Because the greek tragedies of Sophocles,Euripides and the 3rd one(can't write his name in english) was written BEFORE the invasion of the Romans and they only inluded the names of our Gods,the Greek Gods which came first.
And I think Isis was an egyptian Goddess whose worshipping came later to Greece....

~Anna
Aeschylus. :)