Revenge

[Infinite Grey]

This worries me,
A friend showed me this on another forum, a young lady used magic in the name of revenge. She used a hex against her rapist, a week later he was in a freak skiing accident. There is two things that worries me about this, and not that the rapist was injured.
1> She posted the Hex on a site dominated by children around the age of 12 to 14. I'm not saying that she shouldn't expose these youths to pagan ideals but it is irresponsible to give children access to such a hateful hex.
2> She was after revenge not justice, this worries me because she will be just as tainted as he is for rapping her in the first place. Revenge is corrosive, harming both parties involved.

Maybe I'm a little paranoid about he effects this kind of thread may have on youth, but I am disappointed in the admins for not deleting it by now.

Secondly, do you believe magic should be used in the name of revenge?

I personally believe that accounts as abuse of power, and is very irresponsible of the individual.
:eyez:

[Secrets Flame]

there's a right and wrong way to use magik?

[Phoenix Blue]

I don't see what she did as revenge. I think it was justice. She got a sense of closure that a lot of women don't. On the other hand, you say the rapist was "injured," which I think is unfortunate because it implies he's still alive.

Having said that, it's another forum, so it's not really our business. Besides that, people who share magical knowledge are not responsible for its misuse simply because they shared it. Everyone has a conscience and free will; those who use her magic for less-than-ethical purposes will have to face the consequences on their own.

[tebyen]

I personally dont' believe in using magic for revenge, but then I don't believe in using violence for revenge either.

There are more mundane ways of getting revenge against someone.

I don't condemn her for doing it though, each person must follow their own path, doing what they feel they should, and suffering the concequences for it.

As for posting the hex on a website where children frequent, again, I don't think she should have done it, but that's just my opinion. Hopefully any child who reads it will have the sense not to attempt such a thing.

[dr_zeus440]

i think its all fine and dandy. justice/revenge doesnt grow on trees, the power of the hex doesnt lie in the hex itself, and if the woman was raped by the man previously, id say she is more than justified in doing this. this isnt revenge, its righteous retribution in my eyes, and hey, even if it was revenge, its not necessarily bad, and even if it is, then its her funeral and her problem. ergo, i think its all fine and dandy.

[Infinite Grey]

Justice can not come from the invidual, if she had sort a netutral party to deliever the reckoning then it would be justice. Revenge is a twisted thing leaving you empty inside.

[Khuinaset]

i think its all fine and dandy. justice/revenge doesnt grow on trees, the power of the hex doesnt lie in the hex itself, and if the woman was raped by the man previously, id say she is more than justified in doing this. this isnt revenge, its righteous retribution in my eyes, and hey, even if it was revenge, its not necessarily bad, and even if it is, then its her funeral and her problem. ergo, i think its all fine and dandy.

^what he said sounds good to me.

[Witchzee1]

I don't see what she did as revenge. I think it was justice.
No doubt the law of three was involved in that accident anyway, perhaps it had a little nudge but I agree that this sounds more like justice than revenge.

Revenge is a dangerous thing, especially since the same law can come back to kick the spell caster in the butt. But keeping hate out of a spell towards someone who violated you in such a manner would take a mighty powerful witch and most people just don't have that level of power.

[Infinite Grey]

Does the crime justify the price of revenge? If so I have more reason than most people to give into revenge, but I know it would corrupt me more than those who have done me wrong

[Infinite Grey]

No doubt the law of three was involved in that accident anyway, perhaps it had a little nudge but I agree that this sounds more like justice than revenge.

Revenge is a dangerous thing, especially since the same law can come back to kick the spell caster in the butt. But keeping hate out of a spell towards someone who violated you in such a manner would take a mighty powerful witch and most people just don't have that level of power.

I don't think is was about justice, she was after revenge and came accross as very bitter (understandable). But the moment hate or/and bitterness is entered into the situation the act ceases to be justice and becames revenge.

[Witchzee1]

I don't see what she did as revenge. I think it was justice.
I agree that the accident sounds more like justice than revenge. No doubt the "Law of Three" had a little something to do with it. It may have been nudged a bit but I'm sure in a case like that Karmic Law was involved.

As for casting spells of revenge ... it's important to remember the same "Law of Three" since the last thing a rape victim (or anyone for that matter) really needs is a kick in the butt times three, especially after you feel that you've already been violated. But having the strength or the power to keep hate or a desire for revenge out of a spell like that would take a mighty powerful and spiritual witch. And I just don't think that there are truly that many of those around.

[Kenshi ~]

I have to agree with Infinite Grey here. I think what that young woman, though understandably why, is more revenge than justice. Witchcraft shouldn't be used to harm, from what I read about the law of three.

And even though everyone has their own free will, posting harmful spells/hexes in a place where it can be easily accessed by children is very wrong. Yes, they may come across such spells sometime in their life, but (assuming that it was posted on a Pagan/Wiccan site) as a person practicising witchcraft and knowing the consequences (sp?), I think it is a very irresponsible act.

[dr_zeus440]

yes, but whether or not its justice or revenge doesnt make a difference. its all fine and well for you to say "revenge corrupts" but....thats only an opinion.

[Infinite Grey]

yes, but whether or not its justice or revenge doesnt make a difference. its all fine and well for you to say "revenge corrupts" but....thats only an opinion.


So you believe that revenge is acceptable and without consequence?

[dr_zeus440]

yup. kind of like everything else really. the concept of having some kind of non-physical/mystical force that supports good and punishes bad suggests that there is something "out there" that acknowledges the existence of good and bad, which, to me, are utterly human constructs. hence, yup, and ergo, its all fine and dandy :)

[Infinite Grey]

yup. kind of like everything else really. the concept of having some kind of non-physical/mystical force that supports good and punishes bad suggests that there is something "out there" that acknowledges the existence of good and bad, which, to me, are utterly human constructs. hence, yup, and ergo, its all fine and dandy :)

This could lead onto Kant's work if you want to take out the spiritual ramifications and focus on basic humanity.

[Holly Ariadna]

I agree with you, that's extremely irresponsible of her. You should try to talk to her about it.

[dr_zeus440]

hoho, oh it could lead anywhere, but the one place it is definitely leading is off-topic. back to the rewenge!

[Infinite Grey]

I agree with you, that's extremely irresponsible of her. You should try to talk to her about it.

I did speak with her, and arrogance was her response. She even accused me of not ever being able to understand what it is like to be raped and therefore had no right to pass judgement. A massive and gross assumption on her part.

[Infinite Grey]

hoho, oh it could lead anywhere, but the one place it is definitely leading is off-topic. back to the rewenge!

Oh but it is all connected, without boundaries, without at least a universal understanding of right and wrong we would be little better than savages. It is this sense of morality that dictates that revenge is an evil thing. This is not even taking into account spiritual doctrines.

[Holly Ariadna]

I did speak with her, and arrogance was her response. She even accused me of not ever being able to understand what it is like to be raped and therefore had no right to pass judgement. A massive and gross assumption on her part.

Obviously you can't, but having been raped doesn't give her the reason to do anything. If she had tried to kill him, would she be able to justify that with it?? If you feel like talking to her about it again, tell her that... But I think she needs to understand what she did by herself.

[Infinite Grey]

Obviously you can't, but having been raped doesn't give her the reason to do anything. If she had tried to kill him, would she be able to justify that with it?? If you feel like talking to her about it again, tell her that... But I think she needs to understand what she did by herself.

How do you (or anyone else) know I haven't been once a victim to?

[Holly Ariadna]

How do you (or anyone else) know I haven't been once a victim to?

Nobody does, but I didn't even think about that because it wasn't what we were talking about.

[LittleRhiannon]

Well, I honestly see nothing wrong with revenge. I don't see that it corrupts or twists the person in anyway, but then I havn't seen everything there is to see.

If it was me, heck yes would I hex the bastard. If he violates me, why should I hesitate to deal him back some of the same?

I have actually hexed people out of revenge, and I'm not worse for wear of it, though I'm still kind of recovering from what the person did. I felt it was necessary for healing purposes. I felt a lot better afterwards.

I don't go by the rule of three, btw.

[Infinite Grey]

Even if you do not go by the rule of three, karma will redistribute the balance. True happiness can't be found in revenge, only woe. You may not yet feel its effects yet, but there is plenty of time for reckoning in the scale of the world.

[Khuinaset]

Well, I honestly see nothing wrong with revenge. I don't see that it corrupts or twists the person in anyway, but then I havn't seen everything there is to see.

If it was me, heck yes would I hex the bastard. If he violates me, why should I hesitate to deal him back some of the same?

I have actually hexed people out of revenge, and I'm not worse for wear of it, though I'm still kind of recovering from what the person did. I felt it was necessary for healing purposes. I felt a lot better afterwards.

I don't go by the rule of three, btw.

I agree with this too. What, would it have been better for her to try and get him prosecuted w/the law, probably fail, and *if* (which is a big if from what I've seen) she succeeded in getting him sentenced, he gets five years or so, probably less with probation, before he's out and can do it to someone else again? Not to mention what PheonixBlue said about closure. If I was in her situation I would probably do something near the same.

edit: and what was the point of this thread exactly? :eyebrow:

[LittleRhiannon]

Even if you do not go by the rule of three, karma will redistribute the balance. True happiness can't be found in revenge, only woe. You may not yet feel its effects yet, but there is plenty of time for reckoning in the scale of the world.

Well, as of now I've never seen any evidence of western karma or the law of three actually working.

As for true happiness never being found, well, the hex got rid of the problem for me, so whereas I was very unhappy for a while, afraid to leave the house, ect. I'm way happier now.

I'm curious as to where you've gotten these ideas? Have you done anything for revenge before and gotten burned?

[Infinite Grey]

Yes I agree justice was needed, but her motives and motives behind placing access to the working of her revenge in plain view of "children" whom lack the responsibility to know such things, was wrong (as I see it)

The real point of this debate was to see people opinions on whether it is alright to use magik as a medium of revenge. And also to see people's opinions on revenge.

[Infinite Grey]

Well, as of now I've never seen any evidence of western karma or the law of three actually working.

As for true happiness never being found, well, the hex got rid of the problem for me, so whereas I was very unhappy for a while, afraid to leave the house, ect. I'm way happier now.

I'm curious as to where you've gotten these ideas? Have you done anything for revenge before and gotten burned?

Constantly, every time I have sought revenge it has been thrown back in my face. But when I sought justice for someone else I came out on top.

[Mouse]

There aren't (in my opinion) many things worse than rape. Even by healing someone you are still killing (the virus is still a living being).. I believe a witch who can not hex can not heal..

I would use magick for revenge... other person becomes helpless, just as a rape victem is helpless...the great thing about magick is it doesn't leve finger prints.. i mean she could stab him a few times and get revenge that way but she might get caught... I believe in karma but i also believe that doing good things helps weaken the blow when karam returns..

[dr_zeus440]

Oh but it is all connected, without boundaries, without at least a universal understanding of right and wrong we would be little better than savages

in your opinion. saying that morality is what separates us from these supposed "savages" is a crap buzz statement thats been bandied around so many times in the past 50 years that it means nothing (not that it did the first time it was used anyway)...in my opinion :). be careful who you brand as 'savage' as well. savagery is relative to the observer. i may view a mongolian warrior who sacrifices his son before a battle as a savage and therefore myself as civilized, but i may be being viewed by vegetarian who considers me to be a savage because i eat meat. making an absolute statement about that which is relative is impossible.

anyway, read Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad. and you really need to clarify what you mean by "a universal understanding of right and wrong" because on its own that sounds like a contradiction in terms.


It is this sense of morality that dictates that revenge is an evil thing

a sense of morality is a different thing to a moral system. a moral system that is, for example, based on christian teachings of kindness towards your fellow man would dictate that revenge is an evil thing. however, if you travel back to the dark ages and immerse yourself in any european culture circa, i dunno, 900 AD, if someone cut your brothers head open, you dont turn the other cheek, you cut their brothers head open and youre perfectly justified in doing so. does the answer to "what is good and what is bad?" change for different people in different situations? if so, then it is unarguably relative. if not, then what really is good and what really is bad? its impossible to tell. a moral system dictates what is and what is not evil, a sense of morality is a product of a moral system.


This is not even taking into account spiritual doctrines.

good and bad are utterly spiritual concepts, all moral doctrines have their basis in some higher power providing definition as to what is good and what is bad (for instance, god tells moses that killing is bad. christianity spreads. in the 21st century, we have laws against killing). if there is no external entity (god/goddess/divine moocow) to define what is and is not good and bad, then morality ceases to exist. who among man is able to set the standards of good and bad? and by what system is he judged to be less or more able than anyone else to set these standards? who invented THAT system and why was their system more valid than another? without an innately more able entity to define good and bad, the concepts cannot be defined. so we have a moral quandary, thus the gods are born. but thats a whole other can of worms.

that right there is the whole reason that it pays to pay no attention to morality. and there really is bacon in the soap (i made it myself).

edited to add: :fofftopic

[Khuinaset]

Yes I agree justice was needed, but her motives and motives behind placing access to the working of her revenge in plain view of "children" whom lack the responsibility to know such things, was wrong (as I see it)

The real point of this debate was to see people opinions on whether it is alright to use magik as a medium of revenge. And also to see people's opinions on revenge.

I do agree that her posting it on the board was probably stupid. I don't know why you're questioning her motives, though, as they seem fairly obvious - the guy raped her. as someone else said, IMO, that's one of the worst things you can do to a person. I don't know where she's at, but at least in America, the judicial system isn't very nice to rape survivors from what I've heard. And far too lenient on rapists. I don't see why it's such a horrible thing that she made someone actually pay for their actions.

[Infinite Grey]

in your opinion. saying that morality is what separates us from these supposed "savages" is a crap buzz statement thats been bandied around so many times in the past 50 years that it means nothing (not that it did the first time it was used anyway)...in my opinion :). be careful who you brand as 'savage' as well. savagery is relative to the observer. i may view a mongolian warrior who sacrifices his son before a battle as a savage and therefore myself as civilized, but i may be being viewed by vegetarian who considers me to be a savage because i eat meat. making an absolute statement about that which is relative is impossible.

"Savage" Is a complete lack of disregard for anything but themselves. A mongolian warrior still a sense of right and wrong from within his own culture, and the sacrifice of his son before a battle was to benifet the whole, and was seen as noble.





good and bad are utterly spiritual concepts, all moral doctrines have their basis in some higher power providing definition as to what is good and what is bad (for instance, god tells moses that killing is bad. christianity spreads. in the 21st century, we have laws against killing). if there is no external entity (god/goddess/divine moocow) to define what is and is not good and bad, then morality ceases to exist. who among man is able to set the standards of good and bad? and by what system is he judged to be less or more able than anyone else to set these standards? who invented THAT system and why was their system more valid than another? without an innately more able entity to define good and bad, the concepts cannot be defined. so we have a moral quandary, thus the gods are born. but thats a whole other can of worms.


Who said I was taking my morals from Christianity? You seem to be propagandizing a massive debate on unanswerable questions, as you hypotheses is subjective in that it is your opinion.

[Findarto]

Personally I think you're just trying to use big words that most everyone can understand to try and push your views on people during a debate.

Somehow it's been taken from 'Was it right to post it where kids can view' to 'Revenge is wrong!'.

If she hexed the guy for revenge than that's HER buisness not yours, unless you where the 'rapist' or 'victim' in this particular incident.

There have been TONS of debates on Revenge, and I really don't see why we need another when all the others have mostly been pointless ?

And, what's with this whole corrusion of the soul thing ? Do you know how many rapist, murderers, etc. get off scott-free and go on to lead GOOD lives and have no guilt ?

We know that murderers (attempted ones also), and rapist get off to easy in the U.S, in 2001 my brother was shot five times, and the people who did it are getting out of jail this year. Drug-dealers with non-violent pasts or no crimanl record are getting 21 years for small amounts of drugs, is that far when you compare it to a rapist getting out in about 5-6 ?

[Raven Reed]

My thoughts on the situation are that rape involves the need for power and dominance. If you hex someone, you could increase their feelings for needing power because all of a sudden life is awry. Thus, they could be more likely to commit rape in the future.

However, binding their actions on the other hand... and yes in this case, the Rede can go hang.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

This worries me,
A friend showed me this on another forum, a young lady used magic in the name of revenge. She used a hex against her rapist, a week later he was in a freak skiing accident. There is two things that worries me about this, and not that the rapist was injured.
1> She posted the Hex on a site dominated by children around the age of 12 to 14. I'm not saying that she shouldn't expose these youths to pagan ideals but it is irresponsible to give children access to such a hateful hex.
2> She was after revenge not justice, this worries me because she will be just as tainted as he is for rapping her in the first place. Revenge is corrosive, harming both parties involved.

Maybe I'm a little paranoid about he effects this kind of thread may have on youth, but I am disappointed in the admins for not deleting it by now.

Secondly, do you believe magic should be used in the name of revenge?

I personally believe that accounts as abuse of power, and is very irresponsible of the individual.
:eyez:

I have no problem with revenge against someone who has screwed you over in such a horrendous way, and I consider it just the same as justice in this case. And yes, I'd use my magic to get back at a rapist--and have before--and I'd ask for him to suffer as much if not more than I was made to suffer. Justice is a nice concept, but when you're on the receiving end of a pervert's twisted desires, then the word 'justice' sounds a little cold.

I've been in the Craft for over 25 years, and have never had a problem when I use magic of this sort--because I'm cautious about how I use it (and no, I'm not Wiccan). I wouldn't post the spell I did on a site where kids frequented, since I don't post a lot of things on line. But I would include it in one of my books.

I don't believe in karma in the way a lot of the New Age/pagan community sees it--but rather in the way it was originated (it's actually comes from Hindu/Buddhist concepts). In fact, I think we make our own karma, and if you rape somebody, you are just asking for retribution.

That said, I'd also go after the person on the physical level--through the courts first, and if that didn't work, I'd make sure they were afraid to rape anybody again.

Yasmine

[Infinite Grey]

Personally I think you're just trying to use big words that most everyone can understand to try and push your views on people during a debate.

Ummm I was using "big" words? I'm sorry that was not my intention.


Somehow it's been taken from 'Was it right to post it where kids can view' to 'Revenge is wrong!'.


Yeah like most topics it went wildly of course.



If she hexed the guy for revenge than that's HER buisness not yours, unless you where the 'rapist' or 'victim' in this particular incident.

Actually she made it everyone’s business by posting it on a public forum, and further more posting the possible means of revenge in the front of children that lack the wisdom to not use such devices of revenge responsibly. But you are right fundamentally, it is between her and the rapist, we original beef was her exposing innocents to the means of her revenge.


There have been TONS of debates on Revenge, and I really don't see why we need another when all the others have mostly been pointless ?

And, what's with this whole corrusion of the soul thing ? Do you know how many rapist, murderers, etc. get off scott-free and go on to lead GOOD lives and have no guilt ?

We know that murderers (attempted ones also), and rapist get off to easy in the U.S, in 2001 my brother was shot five times, and the people who did it are getting out of jail this year. Drug-dealers with non-violent pasts or no crimanl record are getting 21 years for small amounts of drugs, is that far when you compare it to a rapist getting out in about 5-6 ?


No I don't know, I do not live in America. I do understand that there is a huge amounts of injustice in the world, but why expose others to it? Must we delve to taking away the blessed innocence of the young? There is plenty of time for that as they grow.

[Infinite Grey]

I have no problem with revenge against someone who has screwed you over in such a horrendous way, and I consider it just the same as justice in this case. And yes, I'd use my magic to get back at a rapist--and have before--and I'd ask for him to suffer as much if not more than I was made to suffer. Justice is a nice concept, but when you're on the receiving end of a pervert's twisted desires, then the word 'justice' sounds a little cold.

I've been in the Craft for over 25 years, (and no, I'm not Wiccan). But no, I wouldn't post the spell I did on a site where kids frequented. But I would include it in one of my books.

Yasmine
I should make it clear that was my main problem with the situation, but my own ethics prevents me from committing revenge, but I can perform justice.

[zakzekezedd]

IMHO revenge and justice are two different things entirely, while revenge may seem to serve justice in the end it is still one individual taking it upon themselves to act as the proverbial judge, jury and executioner. I also realize that sometimes the pain and the anger are so overwhelming that revenge may seem necessary for release. Just remember that for every action/choice there is going to ultimately be accountablity. Even if you don't accept the idea of karma, accept the idea that when you go into the darkest corners of your soul or psyche, and act from them, there is a "price" that you pay. A spell seeking justice for the victim(s) of the rapist would have been a better choice IMHO since it would come from a different place than a spell seeking revenge.
As to posting a nasty hex or spell on any public board, well, let's just say, I personally wouldn't want to share my "nasty" side with the world. Since the board moderators didn't see the necessity of removing or editing the post then that should be that.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

Even if you don't accept the idea of karma, accept the idea that when you go into the darkest corners of your soul or psyche, and act from them, there is a "price" that you pay. A spell seeking justice for the victim(s) of the rapist would have been a better choice IMHO since it would come from a different place than a spell seeking revenge.

There's a price you pay for being raped too...and it lurks in the dark corners of the soul and changes your life forever. I know. You may heal, but you never, ever can forget.

Yasmine

[Infinite Grey]

There's a price you pay for being raped too...and it lurks in the dark corners of the soul and changes your life forever. I know. You may heal, but you never, ever can forget.

Yasmine

Be that as it may, does that exuse you from commiting an evil in return? (taking in account not everyone shares the same sense of morality)

[Yasmine Galenorn]

Be that as it may, does that exuse you from commiting an evil in return? (taking in account not everyone shares the same sense of morality)

I guess therein lies the difference--I don't consider what she did evil. I don't consider retribution against those who violate you, or who murder your family, evil. As long as it's against them personally, and not someone connected with them. Once they cross the line, I personally believe that they've given up their rights to being treated with respect. Period. This molly-coddling of criminals is what's leading to more and more sex offenders being released who then go do it again. As a nation, we're soft on the violent criminals and we just encourage them. And magically, I don't consider calling out the Dark Gods to set things right in any way evil or wrong. Especially since the justice system as it's set in place doesn't do much to take these perverts out.

Yasmine

[Phoenix Blue]

Be that as it may, does that exuse you from commiting an evil in return? (taking in account not everyone shares the same sense of morality)
Evil is subjective.

I don't see anything evil about what she did. Anyone who was raped besides this young woman may not see anything evil about it, either.

Consider someone who breaks into your house with the intent of killing you. Is it "evil" to kill them first? Because, believe it or not, it's legal in states that have "make my day" laws.

[WarriorZhanna]

This worries me,
A friend showed me this on another forum, a young lady used magic in the name of revenge. She used a hex against her rapist, a week later he was in a freak skiing accident. There is two things that worries me about this, and not that the rapist was injured.
1> She posted the Hex on a site dominated by children around the age of 12 to 14. I'm not saying that she shouldn't expose these youths to pagan ideals but it is irresponsible to give children access to such a hateful hex.
2> She was after revenge not justice, this worries me because she will be just as tainted as he is for rapping her in the first place. Revenge is corrosive, harming both parties involved.

Maybe I'm a little paranoid about he effects this kind of thread may have on youth, but I am disappointed in the admins for not deleting it by now.

Secondly, do you believe magic should be used in the name of revenge?

I personally believe that accounts as abuse of power, and is very irresponsible of the individual.
:eyez:

Magic used in the name of revenge? That is so sick. I've been always taught in my life that revenge is never a good thing.

[Phoenix Blue]

I did speak with her, and arrogance was her response. She even accused me of not ever being able to understand what it is like to be raped and therefore had no right to pass judgement. A massive and gross assumption on her part.
Does that mean you have, in fact, been raped?

[Infinite Grey]

I guess therein lies the difference--I don't consider what she did evil. I don't consider retribution against those who violate you, or who murder your family, evil. As long as it's against them personally, and not someone connected with them. Once they cross the line, I personally believe that they've given up their rights to being treated with respect. Period. This molly-coddling of criminals is what's leading to more and more sex offenders being released who then go do it again. As a nation, we're soft on the violent criminals and we just encourage them. And magically, I don't consider calling out the Dark Gods to set things right in any way evil or wrong. Especially since the justice system as it's set in place doesn't do much to take these perverts out.

Yasmine

I believe in retribution too and would have happily smited the bastard myself, but then I would a neutral body and justice would be served. But giving into revenge is not the way to it, the balance was be maintained, revenge doesn't balance it obliterates. Yes he deserves to die and preferable painfully, but the intent be hind his death must be justice for it to be balanced to his crime.

[Infinite Grey]

Does that mean you have, in fact, been raped?

I think that was implied.

[Phoenix Blue]

Yes I agree justice was needed, but her motives and motives behind placing access to the working of her revenge in plain view of "children" whom lack the responsibility to know such things, was wrong (as I see it)

The real point of this debate was to see people opinions on whether it is alright to use magik as a medium of revenge. And also to see people's opinions on revenge.
**Shakes head** You're making a lot of groundless assumptions here, in my opinion. First, you're making a judgment call on whether the consequence of her reaction should be called "justice" or "revenge." While it's fine to make that call, you shouldn't presume everyone is going to see it that way.

Second, you're making a presumption that something "evil" is going to happen to her. Frankly, I would say everything that happened, from her spell to the accident that injured the rapist, is a consequence of his action.

Third, you're presuming children aged 13 and 14 don't have strong enough morals to know what they consider right and wrong. My experience is, by that age, a teenager has a pretty well-developed ethical system when he remembers to engage it. Most kids have pretty good heads on their shoulders. While many are what you could still call "innocent," very few of them are naïve to the point of stupidity.

Finally, you're presuming that just because you've done something "for revenge" in the past, the same thing will happen to her that happened to you. Experiences that apply to your life do not automatically apply to the lives of others, especially if they don't see something as "revenge" in the first place.

[Phoenix Blue]

I think that was implied.
It was heavily implied. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making a false presumption.

If I may ask, how did you feel afterward? How did you react to the violation?

[Cielamara]

Ya know...
Rape is a heinous thing. It's one of the most vile crimes a human being can commit against another. In some ways it's worse than flat-out murder, because, from my understanding of it, you have to live with this knowledge that you've been horribly violated, and you will never be the same again.
And in knowing that, and knowing myself, I can say with a considerable degree of certainty that if I were ever raped, that bastard had better kill me after it's over, because if he leaves me alive and at all capable of doing it, I would summon every bit of energy I could and use it to see him fall into hell on Earth. I would do everything I could to have my revenge, and furthermore, I would not feel guilty about it. I think that often, hurts and offenses are just not worth the effort it takes to actually seek that revenge...but when they are, you're doing yourself a disservice in not allowing yourself to go after that revenge. There is closure in revenge. There is a restoration of faith and control in yourself. There is a restoration of faith in humanity, to a degree, of course. Do I worry about the karma? Not really. I tend to believe, as Yasmine said, that we make our own karma--and that the Universe doesn't add it on, thrice over, for everything we do. We are in charge of our "karma bank", and I personally believe that seeking revenge is not piling on bad karma for yourself, but rather, simply evening things out. But then again, to be blunt, I also think the Threefold Law is little more than a scare tactic. I don't need some "law" threatening me into doing the right thing. That's what my instincts, intuition, guardians and patron goddess are for, thanks.
Secondly...there is no "Universal sense of right and wrong." If there were, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We were given free will for a reason, folks...so we could make decisions that we often want the masses or Universe to make for us, like decisions about the definitions of our moral codes. Morality is an individualized thing...people differ on it constantly, hence, why there is no "Universal truth" about what's right and what's wrong. It's entirely up to the individual to decide.
Thirdly...why do you call things in the "darkest corners of the human mind" evil? Don't you realize what the "dark side" is? It's the Divine Feminine. The Goddess and all she stands for is what you're trying to deny. She is not all fluffy and light and happy. She is dark, she knows and understands revenge and those deeper, darker emotions that humans so often run like scared little bunnies from. She is those dark emotions and thoughts...!, and people want to make her into this creature of light and wonder. She can often be that beautiful, glowing Maiden we want her to be, but her truest role is that of darkness, and she doesn't bother to try to hide that, if you bother to look at her for more than a second. You think she's evil? I think that you will never be truly happy, nor will you ever truly understand the fullness of this world in which we live--or other worlds, for that matter--unless you learn to not just accept, but embrace that darkness. That's what life is about, to me...learning to accept, embrace, and then balance.
But then again, my patron goddess is the Morrigan, and she's all about some revenge. Bring out the sporks!

[Raven Reed]

Evil is subjective.

I don't see anything evil about what she did. Anyone who was raped besides this young woman may not see anything evil about it, either.

Consider someone who breaks into your house with the intent of killing you. Is it "evil" to kill them first? Because, believe it or not, it's legal in states that have "make my day" laws.


Um, don't assume. I was raped. I don't necessarily agree with her actions. I especially don't agree with her posting it in a forum with young children.

Someone IN my house poses a danger to me, maybe then is the time to kill them... I don't get to kill them after they left.

[Moon Daughter]

in my understanding, asking the Gods to do such and such bad thing to someone b/c that someone has done something against me is revenge;
while asking the Gods for justice ( so that they may decide what happens, if anything should happen at all)- is asking for justice.

this sort of reminds me of something that happened to me a few years back. i had a female friend, who one day came to me, saying that her ex had beat her up in a park. i was outraged, she asked that i do something so that he is miserable for it. so, i did a spell, asking that something horrible happens to him.
2 days later, my friend came to me, laughing, saying that ( from i remember) he was injured in some way, and was very miserable.
i felt happy that the spell worked, and justice was served.
only the next day ( the night before Beltane, for which i had plans and was looking forward to very much), i ended up flying down the stairs and injuring my ankle ( cracked the bone). so i ended up with a cast for a few weeks, barely even able to walk.
that's how i learned difference between asking for justice and asking for revenge ( and later i found out that he never even beat her up on the first place...).

i'm don't want to pass the judgement on the young lady's magic againts her rapist. whatever is said on the site, i don't know what really happened. she did what she felt was needed.
only...the spell should not have been posted. i feel that such things should be kept personal.

[Infinite Grey]

It was heavily implied. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making a false presumption.

If I may ask, how did you feel afterward? How did you react to the violation?

A little off topic... but ok.

My entire world was shattered, being only a child I could not fully comprehend what was going on. I became with drawn and felt a strange detachment to the rest of humanity, desperately in danger of becoming a monster myself. Then it happened again at twelve, only this time it was a female, this further destroyed my impression of humanity, partially toward women. I became increasingly bazaar, my parents thought I was on drugs (In which I wasn't). The whole time my emotions burned within me like a furnace, I could no longer trust men or women.

I did have my revenge on my female attacker, and for some reason I remained hollow. The revenge was not as sweet as I imagined, it was bitter. (she is now a junkie "redneck" somewhere in western NSW Australia)

I finally found peace from my bitterness I ironically when my night attacks began, but that is a different story.

I have left out a lot of detail, whether or not you believe it is up to you.

[Threase]

I don't see what she did as revenge. I think it was justice. She got a sense of closure that a lot of women don't. On the other hand, you say the rapist was "injured," which I think is unfortunate because it implies he's still alive.

My 2 Cents: I agree.

[Gracecat]

Without having seen the ritual I have to ask... was it a malicious hex or a cleansing ritual with anger and hurt? She could be performing a ritual, a sense of closure to this act and if it made her feel better, so be it. I'm of the mind anything she does over the next little bit will be filled with rage, which is a normal emotion.

As far as hexing a person... Well, maybe sometimes they work but personally I wouldn't put *that* much stock into it. How many times have we wished harm on others and nothing came of it? It's a human emotion and I guess I'd rather her perform a ritual in the privacy of her home rather than tracking him down with a gun.

Posting it to a group of minor children, giving the wrong idea about magic (which I firmly believe isn't fluffy hocus pocus which this could imply), or the idea of revenge which could be misinterpreted by an impressionable young girl... I disagree with her actions there..

[Infinite Grey]

Posting it to a group of minor children, giving the wrong idea about magic (which I firmly believe isn't fluffy hocus pocus which this could imply), or the idea of revenge which could be misinterpreted by an impressionable young girl... I disagree with her actions there..

That is a good point, plus it gives the bible thumpers one more reason to thump!

[Phoenix Blue]

That is a good point, plus it gives the bible thumpers one more reason to thump!
Please. I don't live my life according to what will make them thump more or less. They'll find reasons anyway.

[Infinite Grey]

Please. I don't live my life according to what will make them thump more or less. They'll find reasons anyway.

I was simply suggesting we don't make an easy target of ourselves, not suggesting we hide in the shadows. Posting hexes to children will be seen as wrong, and they will pounce on the opportunity. Just as the Christians try not to wave their short coming in every one's faces.

[Infinite Grey]

The thread has now been closed and deleted. The mods finally took notice. :yikess:

Actually the person closed the thread themselves, interesting...

[Lady Avalon]

Revenge is ALWAYS selfdestructive.

Remember: Mind the Threefold Way ye should,
Three times back for bad or good.

The moderators should have deleted the thread. Hecate, Goddess of Wisdom and Magick, will exact a high price for that hex.

[Phoenix Blue]

I see telling children they'll go to Hell is wrong, too. Doesn't stop extremists from doing it.

This may be an extreme example, but the kids in Fred Phelps' ministry (most of whom are his children and grandchildren) are always a part of his "God hates fags" demonstrations. My wife attended a counter-demonstration when he and the kids were in Montgomery - these kids, not even teenagers, were singing. I heard it at first and thought it was "God Bless America," but it wasn't ... it had been twisted into "God Hates America."

When extremist Christians stop raping the souls of children, I'll let them preach to me about what's right and wrong.

Going back to the main topic, though: time is probably the best indication. Clearly, right now, she feels better because her tormentor is suffering. Maybe with time that feeling will fade - I rather hope it does myself. But I simply can't see denying someone that chance for retribution simply because my morals say that it's wrong.

Let's remember, she is still a victim at this point until she's had the chance to grieve and make the transition from victim to survivor. The best way to help her do that is by supporting her emotionally, whether you agree with her decision or not. Coming at her with value judgments won't help - it'll just drag her self-esteem even lower, to the point where she may even begin to believe she deserved to be raped.

Can you imagine how you might have felt if someone had told you, when you were feeling rage and wanting revenge, that you didn't have the right to feel that way? How would you have dealt with that? Think about it.

[Phoenix Blue]

Revenge is ALWAYS selfdestructive.

Remember: Mind the Threefold Way ye should,
Three times back for bad or good.

The moderators should have deleted the thread. Hecate, Goddess of Wisdom and Magick, will exact a high price for that hex.
You're making another presumption: Who said this girl was Wiccan, or gave a toot about the Rede of the Wiccae one way or the other?

Also, isn't there a clause in there about defending oneself?

[Infinite Grey]

When extremist Christians stop raping the souls of children, I'll let them preach to me about what's right and wrong.


That is a case of becoming what you hate. Lead by example, not by how "they" act.

Ok a concede in my opinion enacting revenge is wrong, but placing the means of revenge within reach of children is very wrong. Would you give a child a loaded weapon? Or a random child on the street? How about the keys to a car? It doesn’t matter if the hex worked or not, the idea is still there.

[Infinite Grey]

Can you imagine how you might have felt if someone had told you, when you were feeling rage and wanting revenge, that you didn't have the right to feel that way? How would you have dealt with that? Think about it.

I wish someone had.

[Phoenix Blue]

Ok a concede in my opinion enacting revenge is wrong, but placing the means of revenge within reach of children is very wrong. Would you give a child a loaded weapon? Or a random child on the street?
A child of 13 or 14 is still old enough to know right from wrong. He is still responsible for the consequences of his actions if someone does give him a weapon or a car and he kills someone else with it.

But I don't think that's a good analogy. I think a better one would be: if I teach a 13-year-old how to shoot a firearm, am I responsible if he acquires his own weapon and shoots someone?

[Infinite Grey]

A child of 13 or 14 is still old enough to know right from wrong. He is still responsible for the consequences of his actions if someone does give him a weapon or a car and he kills someone else with it.

But I don't think that's a good analogy. I think a better one would be: if I teach a 13-year-old how to shoot a firearm, am I responsible if he acquires his own weapon and shoots someone?

Whatever, would you go to a child in the street and show them how to shoot a gun?

[SilverMaiden]

I agree she shouldn't have posted it around children.

If her hitting back at her rapist gives her the knowledge that she is back in control of her life, then I see no problem with it at all.

I'm not one that believes people should just do "nothing" when attacked. I don't believe in turning the other cheek either when it comes to physical assualt and rape.

[Phoenix Blue]

If I were the child's parent, absolutely. Frankly, I think more kids should be taught about firearms, so that they could actually have a concept of what a firearm is beyond "point and click." I think firearm safety and use can safely be taught to anyone ... but once again, what someone does with that knowledge is his responsibility, because his is the intent to do harm.

[Infinite Grey]

If I were the child's parent, absolutely. Frankly, I think more kids should be taught about firearms, so that they could actually have a concept of what a firearm is beyond "point and click." I think firearm safety and use can safely be taught to anyone ... but once again, what someone does with that knowledge is his responsibility, because his is the intent to do harm.

You have to remember kids will be kids. I am not talking about sitting there a telling the child what and what not to shoot. But just walking up a random child on the street and giving them a set of instructions on how to build and use their own gun. Not informing them on any of the dangers involved or the consequences of these actions. If yes then you are guilty of profound indifference and are just as guilty as the child for the damage they caused, as the child is only capable of such damage due to your instructions.

Essentially that is what this individual was doing in post the means of revenge via magik online within the grasp of children.

[Phoenix Blue]

You have to remember kids will be kids.
This kinda sounds like you're excusing a kid for doing something he knows is wrong. I don't believe in that. "Boys will be boys" was an old saying, too, when rape was something people just didn't talk about.


I am not talking about sitting there a telling the child what and what not to shoot. But just walking up a random child on the street and giving them a set of instructions on how to build and use their own gun. Not informing them on any of the dangers involved or the consequences of these actions.
**Shakes head** That's not educating them. That's giving them just enough knowledge to hurt someone. And in that sense, I see your point. I just disagree that someone who actually followed the girl's "how-to" would be free of responsibility for his own behavior.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

Revenge is ALWAYS selfdestructive.

Remember: Mind the Threefold Way ye should,
Three times back for bad or good.

The moderators should have deleted the thread. Hecate, Goddess of Wisdom and Magick, will exact a high price for that hex.

Last I heard, Hecate wasn't Wiccan, she was Greek, and the "law of three" is a Wiccan concept. Hecate is also a goddess of the crossroads, a goddess of night, and was considered a goddess of the Underworld. The underworld is all about shadow and facing one's power and inner demons. I sincerely doubt that the Lady is going to look down and smite someone because of a hex--frankly, the idea that the Gods are as skittish as people make them out to be strikes me as far too human-centric.

Yasmine

[Raydreamer]

I'm curious Phoenix_Blue...do you have children?

[Ahautenites]

What's the point of being a fear-inspiring goddess if you don't actually inspire fear?

[Infinite Grey]

This kinda sounds like you're excusing a kid for doing something he knows is wrong. I don't believe in that. "Boys will be boys" was an old saying, too, when rape was something people just didn't talk about.

Nope I wasn't trying to say they are not accountable for their action, I was saying kids will do stupid things.


**Shakes head** That's not educating them. That's giving them just enough knowledge to hurt someone. And in that sense, I see your point. I just disagree that someone who actually followed the girl's "how-to" would be free of responsibility for his own behavior.

Again, I'm not saying the child is off the hook, just that the individual that provided the means is equally guilty.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

I agree she shouldn't have posted it around children.

If her hitting back at her rapist gives her the knowledge that she is back in control of her life, then I see no problem with it at all.

I'm not one that believes people should just do "nothing" when attacked. I don't believe in turning the other cheek either when it comes to physical assualt and rape.

You know, I think part of the problem is that a lot of people are terrified of their own power. If they use it to help 'others' get justice, that somehow makes it 'okay,' but a lot of folks--women especially--are taught that to use your own power for your own strength, protection, and best interests is 'bad' or 'unladylike' or 'not nice.' What I want to know is how the hell can you help anybody else until you face your inner strength, learn to use it, and learn to stand up for yourself?

*grins*
Yasmine

[Phoenix Blue]

I'm curious Phoenix_Blue...do you have children?
Yeah, I do, Raydreamer. My son just turned 4.

I presume you're going to tie this into the topics of rape or revenge somehow ..?

[Infinite Grey]

You know, I think part of the problem is that a lot of people are terrified of their own power. If they use it to help 'others' get justice, that somehow makes it 'okay,' but a lot of folks--women especially--are taught that to use your own power for your own strength, protection, and best interests is 'bad' or 'unladylike' or 'not nice.' What I want to know is how the hell can you help anybody else until you face your inner strength, learn to use it, and learn to stand up for yourself?

*grins*
Yasmine

Since when did it become exclusively about women as victims? Besides that is terribly "old school", maybe it is just where I live but I see women with as much inner strength as men.

Anyway there is a difference between standing up for yourself and seeking revenge, as there is a difference between revenge and justice. Revenge was her intent.
.

[Infinite Grey]

Yeah, I do, Raydreamer. My son just turned 4.

I presume you're going to tie this into the topic of rape somehow ..?

I would rather Raydreamer didn't.

[amberwolf]

I would and have had no problem with using magick to get back at someone who has hurt someone so terribly badly that they will never forget what happened to them...Sometimes things have to be taken into your own hands and if you are a victim or someone very close to the victim you need to do what ever is nessesary to bring some sort of closure to a situation..even though the situation will never be forgotten sometimes things need a little push in the right direction to bring a criminal to pay for what he/she has done too many get away scott free and go on to live their lives happily as larry whilst the victim of the crime has to pick up the pieces...I am not talking petty little incidents here i would never use magick frivilously im talking about serious crimes...so yes i have used magick to get revenge on someone and if i had to i would do so again

[Phoenix Blue]

Since when did it become exclusively about women as victims? Besides that is terribly "old school", maybe it is just where I live but I see women with as much inner strength as men.
Since when did Yazza say it was exclusively about women? She was talking about people in general, but especially women.


I would rather Raydreamer didn't.
Yeah, that makes two of us.

[Raydreamer]

presume away. ;)

[Infinite Grey]

presume away. ;)

Nicely put.

[Valnorran]

I don't think she should have posted her hex, but I have no problem with her taking revenge on her rapist. Revenge and justice are not always seperate entities. I never understood the notion that we should just stand back and "let justice be done," as if justice is some entity seperate from us that acts on its own. It isn't, and if we who would create societies and laws and such are not willing to see justice done, who is? A hex against someone for cutting you off in ttraffic? No. A hex for raping you or inflicting an injury of similar magnitude? Hell yes.

[Phoenix Blue]

presume away. ;)
Riiight. Way to add something meaningful to the conversation, there. :rolleyes:

[Raydreamer]

:lol:

[Phoenix Blue]

:lol:
You're ... mocking me, aren't you?

:p

[Silver_FireStar]

to answer Infinite Grey's origional question

I know I've hexed soeone. It isn't something I'm particulary proud of and to this day I don't know if it worked, I half hope it did and half hope it didn't. It's alright people saying that it shouldn't be done, but if you knew some of the trauma people suffer before turning to hex's as good people it takes a lot to do it, but as pagans with the threefold law which is the foundation law of our entire belief it's even harder.

Rape is a terrible thing, I've never been raped thank god, but my best friends were. One has recovered from it, but the other still thinks about suicide because of the phisical and psychological abuse of rape.

So it's not really a straightforward question. To just throw hex's at people in anger is wrong, but when you come to that snapping point, which I hope no-one here has EVER encountered and if you have my heart bleeds for you, the line becomes blurry. Personally I don't believe that [from what you said] this woman had reached that snapping point if she actually posted the hex. Especially without someone in dire need of it. But when that line is crossed and someone is going through the amount of fear, revulsion, terror etc I can agree with it. Maybe not a revenge hex, no one who has crossed the line can think straight, and can't class it as revenge as they start to think in some way it's their fault, or theres no point, But justice? Yes. A hex told to act if justice is unfulled is ok at a certain point.

[Raydreamer]

:lol: Phoenix mate...i really do love you! :hugz:

apologies for making the gist of thread slightly askew...i really did just want to ask a question. I don't always establish my opinions and thoughts aloud...
so my questions might seem pointless...
but that's because I'm not trying to make a point.
It's the facts i'm after before i open my fat mouth (I lived...i learnt ;) )

[Aidron]

Mmm, revenge. A dish best served by me-and preferably with a side of chocolate pudding.

So, let's see if I can catch up.

A woman, who was raped, hexed her rapist. Was it her seeking retribution and justice, or merely out of revenge? I do not consider the three terms seperate, at least not in this sense. She was wronged, and she sought retribution and justice toward the man who had violated her. Since she acted alone in this manner and the so-called proper authorities did not assist or observe her actions, this could lead it to be revenge. However, as it has been pointed out, since when do the proper authorities ever do enough to satisfy the person in terms of what they feel their offender is owed? I can think of very few instances myself, and why? The U.S. justice system is, quite frankly, a mockery. Let's take a look at those who are found in possesion of narcotics. Due to laws passed in the 80s they must recieve the minimum sentence at the very least, which could be 10 years in some cases. Heck, even tampering with someone's mail box can get you 5 years. Most convicted rapists and murderers? They're out of jail by then.

So, with this in mind, her own judgement dictated that he deserved far more than he no doubt would have recieved. Who is anyone to say what sort of justice this man should recieve, but her? She is the victim, the crime was against her, and she should be judge, jury, and executioner if need be in my mind. Let the victims set the standards, I say. Sadly, this is not how the system works, so she took things into her own hands.

If you question her judgement and her reasoning, that's fine. You are simply another human being just like her, so since when did your judgement and reasoning become so superior to her's? Oh right, because you're more spiritual than she is, at least, that's the usual train of thought.

Obviously, the woman gave little thought to the Wiccan Rede, the butchered (butchered beyond belief in fact) ideal of karma amongst neo-pagans, or the law of return. Why? Perhaps that's because many people are tired of these things being used in the same manner that Christianity's devil is used. To instill fear and control another's action. Granted, I am not saying these are the soul purposes for these three concepts, but they are more often than not used in this manner by many Pagans, especially Wiccans. Quite frankly, it's hypocrisy at its highest point.

A lot of people, myself included, dismissively wave their hands at the aforementioned ideaologies. Why? Karma, for starters, originated within Hinduism and Buddhism as far as historical research can tell. Why should I pay any heed to a warped sense of what it was once originally for the sake of appeasing others? I see no reason to. The Wiccan Rede? I'm not Wiccan, therefore it does not apply to me, nor do I find it to even be relevant. Perhaps this woman thought the same. The Law of Return? The Law of Return in my mind is just as warped as the neo-pagan concept of karma. Cause and effect people, every action is a reaction, and every reaction creates another reaction. It has been mutated to the point that it's used as a bizarre control method, in my experiences.

The rapist got what he deserved, in his victim's mind, and since she is the victim here who are any of you to say he deserved more or less? Justice and retribution are about appeasing the victim, not the rest of the world's moral ideaologies. I personally, do not think he got what he deserved. If anything, his penis should be hacked off and stuffed in his ear-at the very least.

Does revenge, retribution, and justice twist and pervert the soul? Perhaps, but so can everything. It is the same line of thinking as any item can be a weapon-for if used in the right way, it can. All things can maim us, items or experiences, and leave a mark on us. If you don't have the stomach for cursing, hexcraft, and vengeance magic, that's fine. No one is asking you to perform it. However, they-myself included-are asking you to keep your noses out of our business when it comes to whether or not we deem the circumstances worthy of such effort. If anything, performing such magic can give the victim closure, and have you ever thought of the concept that we create our own karma, we are the judges who balance it out? Reacting in a way we deem suitable to return what we are given? We do, whether you wish to believe it or not. Everyone will react in a manner they deem fit, whether it is ignoring the offender or striking out at them.

Was she wise in posting her hexing formula on a board frequented by children? Irrelevant. What you do is your own responsibility, and this prevailant human mentality to blame everyone and their grandmother for your own actions is sickening. Just because there is a knife in your kitchen, does that necessarily denote you must go and slit someone's throat? Does it also mean that the manufacturer should be held accountable for the fact that you murdered someone with it? I think not. You picked the knife up, you cast the hex, it's in your hands-literally.

So, wake up, get a clue, and stop attempting to condemn everyone simply because they are attempting to cope and satisfy their desire to even things out due to malicious acts that were directed at them.

[charmedkisses1]

I think it depends on the situation. Performing a hex on your ex boyfriend and ex best freind bc they had an affair isn't the same as cursing a rapist, or murderer, etc.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

to answer Infinite Grey's origional question
I know I've hexed soeone. It isn't something I'm particulary proud of and to this day I don't know if it worked, I half hope it did and half hope it didn't. It's alright people saying that it shouldn't be done, but if you knew some of the trauma people suffer before turning to hex's as good people it takes a lot to do it, but as pagans with the threefold law which is the foundation law of our entire belief it's even harder.

So it's not really a straightforward question. To just throw hex's at people in anger is wrong, but when you come to that snapping point, which I hope no-one here has EVER encountered and if you have my heart bleeds for you, the line becomes blurry.

A) The threefold law is NOT the foundation of the pagan belief system--there is no 'pagan belief system'...there are many variations of paganism. I believe the TFL is one of the foundations of Wicca--which only accounts for one sect of paganism.

B) You're right about it not being a straightforward question, there are so many nuances to issues like this. And some of us, yes, have reached that snapping point...in fact there are a number of people on this board that have suffered pretty damning events. How we each come to deal with it depends on the individual...and I think that all of life is all blurry--it's full of grays as opposed to be straight black and white.

Cheers,
Yasmine

[Stormcall]

Aren't people getting a little heavy on this "turn the other cheek" philosophy? I have never been raped, but a friend of mine has been, and the damage has yet to fade... It's been three years. He still barely sleeps at night, has plunged into a deep depression, and somehow got the idea that he deserved it! If a hex could change any of that from happening to a person, then it is well worth ANY karmic backlash that would occur. Personally, in cases of rape and physical violence, revenge IS akin to justice, and I wouldn't have the guts to tell anyone otherwise... Now, her posting it on the message board, I don't agree to that, but the act of revenge, in cases such as these, seems to be perfectly acceptable IMO.

[Cielamara]

Obviously, the woman gave little thought to the Wiccan Rede, the butchered (butchered beyond belief in fact) ideal of karma amongst neo-pagans, or the law of return. Why? Perhaps that's because many people are tired of these things being used in the same manner that Christianity's devil is used. To instill fear and control another's action. Granted, I am not saying these are the soul purposes for these three concepts, but they are more often than not used in this manner by many Pagans, especially Wiccans. Quite frankly, it's hypocrisy at its highest point.


A lot of people, myself included, dismissively wave their hands at the aforementioned ideaologies. Why? Karma, for starters, originated within Hinduism and Buddhism as far as historical research can tell. Why should I pay any heed to a warped sense of what it was once originally for the sake of appeasing others? I see no reason to. The Wiccan Rede? I'm not Wiccan, therefore it does not apply to me, nor do I find it to even be relevant. Perhaps this woman thought the same. The Law of Return? The Law of Return in my mind is just as warped as the neo-pagan concept of karma. Cause and effect people, every action is a reaction, and every reaction creates another reaction. It has been mutated to the point that it's used as a bizarre control method, in my experiences.


So, wake up, get a clue, and stop attempting to condemn everyone simply because they are attempting to cope and satisfy their desire to even things out due to malicious acts that were directed at them.

I knew there was a reason I liked you...I'm really a bit tired of the twisting of the concept of karma. Read up on your Hinduism, folks! As I said earlier in the chatroom...it's like "karma" and "the Threefold Law" have replaced "the Lord" and "the Bible" in the age-old scare-tactic phrase, "The Lord will see to it that you pay, so sayeth the Bible." Karmic pokey for you.


A) The threefold law is NOT the foundation of the pagan belief system--there is no 'pagan belief system'...there are many variations of paganism. I believe the TFL is one of the foundations of Wicca--which only accounts for one sect of paganism.

If I had money, I'd go out and buy one of your books, just so show my support for such an awesome woman.


Aren't people getting a little heavy on this "turn the other cheek" philosophy?

Yep.


If a hex could change any of that from happening to a person, then it is well worth ANY karmic backlash that would occur.

I like you. :)

[Infinite Grey]

Aren't people getting a little heavy on this "turn the other cheek" philosophy? I have never been raped, but a friend of mine has been, and the damage has yet to fade... It's been three years. He still barely sleeps at night, has plunged into a deep depression, and somehow got the idea that he deserved it! If a hex could change any of that from happening to a person, then it is well worth ANY karmic backlash that would occur. Personally, in cases of rape and physical violence, revenge IS akin to justice, and I wouldn't have the guts to tell anyone otherwise... Now, her posting it on the message board, I don't agree to that, but the act of revenge, in cases such as these, seems to be perfectly acceptable IMO.

It isn't about turning the other cheek, but not allowing yourself to turn into that which you hate. It is very real possiblity when dealing with revenge.

[Valnorran]

It isn't about turning the other cheek, but not allowing yourself to turn into that which you hate. It is very real possiblity when dealing with revenge.
And simply letting the attack go has the very real possibility of emotionally eating you alive.

[Secrets Flame]

I still don't think there can be a "right" and "wrong" way to use magik. That would be defining morality to things... and that's SUCH a christian thing to do! :rolleyes:

[Lunacie]

Justice can not come from the invidual, if she had sort a netutral party to deliever the reckoning then it would be justice. Revenge is a twisted thing leaving you empty inside.



Actually, I looked in the dictionary and the encyclopedia, and justice is not limited to a governing body.



If someone had raped me or my daughter or my grandchildren, I wouldn’t have hexed them to break a LEG.
:alol:


That said, what one does during an attack is called self-defense in the eyes of the law, what one does in the days following an attack is usually called revenge. As some folks have mentioned, given the level of legal repercussions dealt to rapists in the, personal revenge may not be so heinous.



The legal system must be careful because they fear doing harm to someone who may turn out to be innocent. Casting a hex with magic targets only the guilty party, and in my mind that should eliminate a lot of the ethical considerations.



As for your being concerned that she posted the actual hex on a site where young people can view it, all you could do was to alert the mods and let them make a judgment call, and also post your own thoughts as to the consequences of casting hexes, eh?





Edited to add: ah I see that mods have taken action. You might after some time has passed begin a discussion on the consequences of casting hexes. Hmmm… actually, there are always consequences for any action we take.

[Silver_FireStar]

A) The threefold law is NOT the foundation of the pagan belief system--there is no 'pagan belief system'...there are many variations of paganism. I believe the TFL is one of the foundations of Wicca--which only accounts for one sect of paganism.

B) You're right about it not being a straightforward question, there are so many nuances to issues like this. And some of us, yes, have reached that snapping point...in fact there are a number of people on this board that have suffered pretty damning events. How we each come to deal with it depends on the individual...and I think that all of life is all blurry--it's full of grays as opposed to be straight black and white.

Cheers,
Yasmine

Yasmine, dearest and others. I'm sorry. I phrased it wrong. I didn't mean it was the foundation of the religion, but one of the foundation rules of the religion as it's the only constent in all the paths that I have been able to see. And I mean see EXACTLY the same

[Lunacie]

Well now, some Pagans believe in the Law of Returns as being the Law of Three, some as the Law of Ten. I've seen the Law of Three explained as energy coming back on the physical, mental, and spiritual levels, rather than being three times as much as what you've sent out. I haven't seen the Law of Ten explained in any way.

For myself, it boils down to "What goes around, comes around", or "What you do comes back to you." It's more of a law of nature than religious dogma.

[Phoenix Blue]

For myself, it boils down to "What goes around, comes around", or "What you do comes back to you." It's more of a law of nature than religious dogma.
I agree. However, the consequences seem to vary from one individual to another. Generally, I think people who believe they're doing the right thing get fewer negative consequences, at least most of the time; whereas people who are constantly afraid of doing something wrong get more negative consequences of the actions they do commit.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

I agree. However, the consequences seem to vary from one individual to another. Generally, I think people who believe they're doing the right thing get fewer negative consequences, at least most of the time; whereas people who are constantly afraid of doing something wrong get more negative consequences of the actions they do commit.

PB:
You know, it has been my experience that the more afraid someone is of something, the more they tend to draw that 'something' into their life. Fear creates its own power of attraction.

And in general:
What concerns me, among some of the replies on this thread, is just another facet I see of the emergence of "Pagan" dogma/fundamentalism that seems to be growing as Paganism becomes more widespread. I suppose that is to be expected, people being people.

"You have to believe this because you say you're pagan and all pagans believe XXXX."

The simple fact of the matter is that no religion has only one path, and paganism is a catchall term for many belief systems, and not all of them are built on the same foundations. I am pagan, but I neither follow, nor worry about, the rule of three.

Just as in the Christian religion, not all sects believe in heaven and hell. I know of two in particular because when I was young, I belonged to both churches--first the Worldwide Church of God, Faith of Abraham, and second, the Jehovah's Witnesses. So if you were to say, "All Christians believe in heaven and hell as one of their foundation beliefs" you'd be wrong. And not all Christian denominations believe Sunday is their day of worship. And not all Christian denominations pray to the 'Father, Son, & Holy Ghost.' And so on.

Just as, once again, not all pagan paths hold the 'rule of three' as a foundation belief. Not all pagan paths are pacifistic. Not all pagan paths are focused on the Gods. Not all pagan paths have a foundation of the God/Goddess. And so on.

Personally, I try to treat people with courtesy and respect, until they screw me or someone I love over. Once they cross the line, they've forfeited that right in my eyes.

Yasmine

[Aidron]

PB:
You know, it has been my experience that the more afraid someone is of something, the more they tend to draw that 'something' into their life. Fear creates its own power of attraction.

Touching on both what PB and you said, my idea of what comes around goes around (not karma, I refuse to butcher Hinduism or Buddhism) is the simple fact that we create our own consequences.

For example, if I were to lash out at Yasmine right now (not that I would! :hugz: ) claiming she was wrong and immoral (and I believe neither for the record) many things would occur.

For starters, many people would view my behavior as unprovoked, immature, and no doubt rude-even hateful. You each in turn would be sending out energy vibrations to me based on emotional and mental responses I provoked in each of you, Yasmine included. The negative energy that would be surrounding me is nothing more than the very basic of spells, and could quite possibly result in misfortune in my life.

On the other side of the coin, if I believe deep down what I did was wrong, my own guilt would not only attract further negativity, but surround me in my own negative energy that I am producing. Further misfortune.

We all judge each other-constantly in fact-to some degree or other. This is why I believe we create our own consequences, or for those who are so attached to the word-karma.

The more you stay on path that you believe in your heart of hearts is true, the less you need to worry about all of the above. Simply put, be honest with yourself and with how you live your life.


And in general:
What concerns me, among some of the replies on this thread, is just another facet I see of the emergence of "Pagan" dogma/fundamentalism that seems to be growing as Paganism becomes more widespread. I suppose that is to be expected, people being people.

"You have to believe this because you say you're pagan and all pagans believe XXXX."

The simple fact of the matter is that no religion has only one path, and paganism is a catchall term for many belief systems, and not all of them are built on the same foundations. I am pagan, but I neither follow, nor worry about, the rule of three.

Just as in the Christian religion, not all sects believe in heaven and hell. I know of two in particular because when I was young, I belonged to both churches--first the Worldwide Church of God, Faith of Abraham, and second, the Jehovah's Witnesses. So if you were to say, "All Christians believe in heaven and hell as one of their foundation beliefs" you'd be wrong. And not all Christian denominations believe Sunday is their day of worship. And not all Christian denominations pray to the 'Father, Son, & Holy Ghost.' And so on.

Just as, once again, not all pagan paths hold the 'rule of three' as a foundation belief. Not all pagan paths are pacifistic. Not all pagan paths are focused on the Gods. Not all pagan paths have a foundation of the God/Goddess. And so on.

Personally, I try to treat people with courtesy and respect, until they screw me or someone I love over. Once they cross the line, they've forfeited that right in my eyes.

Yasmine


This is a major gripe of mine as well. What is even more infuriating is that many of these people play into the victim mindset, of how Christianity has oppressed them, continues to do so, and that they are so evil it's unfathomable.

Take a good look at yourselves. Prejudice is not choosy about where it pops up, and your faith is entirely irrelevant. I have met just as many Pagans who were far more insufferable, irritating, and downright nasty to the point that it sickened me as I have Christians, Athiests, Agnostics, and so on.

This promotion of propoganda concerning what Pagans believe and this need to define all of our beliefs in one easy to follow guide to present the rest of the world so we can disolve misconceptions is beyond absurd. If you want to correct misconceptions and misinformation, do it as an individual representing yourself, not as an individual representing a group or community. If you don't, you are just going to wind up looking foolish by proclaiming the beliefs of others, when it's neither your business nor your right to do so.

[Yasmine Galenorn]

Simply put, be honest with yourself and with how you live your life.

How'd you get so smart at such a young age? :smile:

Seriously, add to this, "Use your common sense" and "Think before you speak' and "Don't touch what's not yours to touch"...and a lot of the world's problems would be...well...not gone but better.

Yazzapanther :hugz:

[Teresa]

I do not judge others if I can help it. Who am I to say what she did was wrong.I hope that it helps her to heal and get over the horrible ordeal she lived thru.From what was said about the attacker skiing it sounds as if he was let go.I do believe he should have suffered in some way for the horrible act he committed.(He could have not only raped her but also given her a death sentance such as aids.)Do We know all the facts of the case? No we do not.So who are we to say what is right and what is wrong here? I do not feel qualified to condem a hurting victim who possibly felt like the attacker was geting off scot free.Perhaps she felt that was needed in her healing process in order for her to be able to move on and felt the risk was worth it. That is a personal decision and is hers alone to make.I have been a victim before and can say first hand that sometimes victims do things without thinking them thru.Sometimes they act on the pain they feel.They look for a way to ease it.

[Mau]

I don't think it wise to post hexes on the internet.
But I see nothing wrong with hexes, or revenge in general. In her case, I think it was completely warranted.
I was raped once as a teen... there were three of them.I felt so screwed up by it, I hurt physically, and emtionally...these were guys I had known for a good while, guys I hung out with and trusted.
I was only 15, and hadn't ventured to witchcraft really yet..but I had my own little 'hex' I used anyways, without really knowing what it was or how to go about it. For a long time, I repeated the same sentences over and over, focusing as hard as I could, constantly. I wanted them to get what they had coming. And they did. One was so full of himself. He was the greatest thing on earth according to him, he could do no wrong. I wanted him to ruin himself. I wanted him to be his worst nightmare, the downfall of himself.
He got hooked on heroine and OD'd. (and I'd dance on his grave if someone would tell me where he's buried)
Another was in love with his long beautiful hair, the only things he loved more were his trans am, and his painting..needed those hands and fingers. He got in a terrible car wreck in his beloved trans am, totalled it,went through the windshield..which scalped him and cut off all 10 of his fingers.
The last...well, I just wanted him to know what it felt like to be violated like that. To feel like a piece of meat, an object, a toy.
He ended up going to jail, and was a 'favorite' among some of the much larger and meaner inmates.
I believe that horrid people eventually reap what they sow..but I see nothing wrong with speeding up the process and being vindicated.

[Mau]

And simply letting the attack go has the very real possibility of emotionally eating you alive.

EXACTLY.
:uhhuhuh:

[Mouse]

ok, so she posted this hex where there are children.. there are both good and bad in the world and sometimes the line between the two is fuzzy. I remember being 14 (seeming it wasnt all that long ago and all) and these children are not really that inocent anyway. It seems to be commonly thought that everyone has to keep children sheltered, but why? they know what a hex is and wheather it is right or wrong, they know about death and killing and rape.. and if they are too sheltered or stupid to understand that hexing for no reason is wrong chances are they couldn't hex someone effectively anyway.

Most of the time if you treat "children" as your equal they will be.

revenge? lets see.. My sister was raped and i know that if i ever find the feller who did it or the girl who locked the door i would kill them in the slowest most painful way that i could think of.. be it with or without magick. I would not feel guilty either.

Its nice to tell ourselves that we wouldn't seek revenge but it is a lot different when you are in the driving seat.

If you could prevent a rapeist striking again but to do so you had to use "dark" magick, would you?

[Infinite Grey]

ok, so she posted this hex where there are children.. there are both good and bad in the world and sometimes the line between the two is fuzzy. I remember being 14 (seeming it wasnt all that long ago and all) and these children are not really that inocent anyway. It seems to be commonly thought that everyone has to keep children sheltered, but why? they know what a hex is and wheather it is right or wrong, they know about death and killing and rape.. and if they are too sheltered or stupid to understand that hexing for no reason is wrong chances are they couldn't hex someone effectively anyway.

Most of the time if you treat "children" as your equal they will be.


I covered that a little earlier, not all children are responsible.

[Cielamara]

I covered that a little earlier, not all children are responsible.

No, but she is not responsible for those children. It was therapeutic for her to do it, and then to share it. And if it's therapy, and it helps her, I'm all for it.

[Infinite Grey]

You have to remember kids will be kids. I am not talking about sitting there a telling the child what and what not to shoot. But just walking up a random child on the street and giving them a set of instructions on how to build and use their own gun. Not informing them on any of the dangers involved or the consequences of these actions. If yes then you are guilty of profound indifference and are just as guilty as the child for the damage they caused, as the child is only capable of such damage due to your instructions.

Essentially that is what this individual was doing in post the means of revenge via magik online within the grasp of children.

Profound indifference