wiccan question...

[LittlePerson]

Is there a path of wiccan that worships only the male side of the male/female duality of deity? Like Dianic wicca only opposite? Or are there wiccan here who only worship a male God instead of a using the normal Goddess or both? What do you do to make it work? Do you replace words in your invocation, circle, ect to make it only Lord? Thanks.

[Seren_]

Well, Wicca tends to be based on the duality of god and goddess. Dianic Wicca might emphasise the goddess aspect while still recognising the god...so in theory you could reverse that. But it is one of those core issues that can be quite controversial.

Some people might define what you describe as "Wiccanesque" rather than Wiccan per se...I guess it depends on your point of view. Are you looking to focus on the god alone?...if you are, then would the Wheel of the Year in Wicca apply to your practices? Without the/*a* goddess, it would be difficult...I'm not aware of any Wiccan trads that do that, anyway.

If you're going to focus on only the god, then there are other paths...Ceremonial magic, maybe?

[Theres]

i've never understood why people who want to focus strictly on one side of the duality or the other would want to be Wiccan in the first place.

[Calen]

*nods and shrugs*
I always thought that honoring both sides of the polarity was the whole point.

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

I was dianic for a while, until Ullr found me. But durring that time i found all the duality I needed in my goddess. I see no reason why one couldn't find the same duality in a god. Afterall, masculine and feminine traits are culture dependant, they must be learned, and there are cultures where men take on more "feminine" traits, and vice versa.

[LittlePerson]

Guys don't dis me for this question please. I've been around here for a long time as you can probably see from my name on the left. It was just an honest question coming from my learning here. It's not that I want to be wiccan it's just that I really wanted to know the answer to my question. Being an eclectic pagan I have adopted practices from wicca into my own practices, is all and I continue to strive to learn all I can about the paths that intrigue me. Thanks.

[tensen]

You kind of miss the mystery of life and creation without the feminine aspect.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Guys don't dis me for this question please. I've been around here for a long time as you can probably see from my name on the left. It was just an honest question coming from my learning here. It's not that I want to be wiccan it's just that I really wanted to know the answer to my question. Being an eclectic pagan I have adopted practices from wicca into my own practices, is all and I continue to strive to learn all I can about the paths that intrigue me. Thanks.
The answer to your question is no. I've never encountered a Wiccan path that focuses on the God to the exclusion of the Goddess.

Better now?

[Lady Avalon]

In all my years of study I have found that Wicca/Witchcraft is a Goddess based religion. You can worship only the Goddess, but not just the God.

Personally, I give the Lord his due. That is what Samhain means to me. It is the time when the Goddess retreats and the God steps forward to rule until the Lady retuns on Beltane.

Another thing: A High Priestess does not need a High Priest. A High Priest cannot work without a High Priestess.

All I can do is pass on what I have learned over the last 45 years.

[-Sky-]

O yeah what Lady Avalon says is definately true!There is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism without the Goddess,she is the start and the end,she is the light and the darkness.And as mentioned before a High-Priestess can lead a ritual alone but a High-Priest needs the High-Priestess.
But of course both aspects of the Divine are needed for balance.
And I have never heard of a path that worships only the God...At least not a pagan path.And after all I do't think it existed or it will exist such path or tradition because from the start of the World people believe in the Great Mother,Nature and I don't think this will change among the pagans now.

~Anna

[teishabee]

Did you mean just a pagan path?

Make your own, if it is a god you want to worship but just dont call it wicca.

I know that sounds harsh.Im not even wiccan but it just grates me that people misuse the term.

[Aidron]

In all my years of study I have found that Wicca/Witchcraft is a Goddess based religion. You can worship only the Goddess, but not just the God.

Personally, I give the Lord his due. That is what Samhain means to me. It is the time when the Goddess retreats and the God steps forward to rule until the Lady retuns on Beltane.

Another thing: A High Priestess does not need a High Priest. A High Priest cannot work without a High Priestess.

All I can do is pass on what I have learned over the last 45 years.


A few points I'd like to... well, point out.

Witchcraft is not a religion, much less a Goddess based one.

And I have met many high priests who work without a high high priestess, and vise versa as well.

No offense to women as a whole, but I find it very disrespectful and a bit pious to lay claim to Witchcraft as if you are above any male, or that males need you in order to function successfully within the craft. Now, many don't do this, and I'm not naming names or pointing fingers-or even assuming anyone here does this necessarily, but this is a general gripe of mine.

I respect that in certain traditions, males have more power per se or influence, just as there are traditions that have more feminine influence or where females have more power, and by power I am speaking mostly in political and social context. The only complaint of mine is in laying down assumptions and ground work that all witches view it as this and that it is a universal law.

[Ben Trismegistus]

In all my years of study I have found that Wicca/Witchcraft is a Goddess based religion. You can worship only the Goddess, but not just the God.

Personally, I give the Lord his due. That is what Samhain means to me. It is the time when the Goddess retreats and the God steps forward to rule until the Lady retuns on Beltane.

Another thing: A High Priestess does not need a High Priest. A High Priest cannot work without a High Priestess.

All I can do is pass on what I have learned over the last 45 years.
That is your opinion. Personally, I disagree. And I believe that this sort of female-dominated spiritual practice is every bit as oppressive and divisive as male-dominated Judeo-Christianity. You have every right to worship in whatever way you wish, but I would not personally practice any spirituality which places one gender over the other.

And, for the record, I've been at rituals where a High Priest has done just fine without a High Priestess.

[Aidron]

O yeah what Lady Avalon says is definately true!There is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism without the Goddess,she is the start and the end,she is the light and the darkness.And as mentioned before a High-Priestess can lead a ritual alone but a High-Priest needs the High-Priestess.
But of course both aspects of the Divine are needed for balance.
And I have never heard of a path that worships only the God...At least not a pagan path.And after all I do't think it existed or it will exist such path or tradition because from the start of the World people believe in the Great Mother,Nature and I don't think this will change among the pagans now.

~Anna


There is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism without the Goddess? Excuse me, but that's a load of crap. There are plenty of religions, paths, and faiths that view Gods above Goddesses. There are witches who are Christian as well, and who do not place Mary above God or Jesus Christ. Then you have athiest witches. There is also Satanism, and of course Satanic witches. You're not spreading facts, you're spreading how you practice as a fact.

As I have already said, a high priest does not need a high priestess anymore than she needs him or a fish needs a bicycle. This is propoganda, no doubt derived by women who in my opinion were sick of religions that excluded women. Do not assume that just because you practice a path where women are placed above men that all feel this way, or that we will even take kindly to it.

Hinduism and Buddhism. Both are often considered Pagan, despite the fact that many of them would no doubt cringe at such a label. Not all Hindus or Buddhists worship a Goddess or even pay homage to one, despite there being respective female deities in each path.

Honestly, where you people get this pseudo sexism eludes me, and frankly I'm starting to grow more than just a bit annoyed with it all.

[Ben Trismegistus]

There is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism without the Goddess? Excuse me, but that's a load of crap. There are plenty of religions, paths, and faiths that view Gods above Goddesses. There are witches who are Christian as well, and who do not place Mary above God or Jesus Christ. Then you have athiest witches. There is also Satanism, and of course Satanic witches. You're not spreading facts, you're spreading how you practice as a fact.
Don't forget Greek and Egyptian paganism, where in both cases the deities at the top of the hierarchy are Gods.

In fact, most ancient paganism was just patriarchal as Judeo-Christianity. The idea of solely Goddess-centric worship is a relatively new idea.

[Aidron]

Don't forget Greek and Egyptian paganism, where in both cases the deities at the top of the hierarchy are Gods.

In fact, most ancient paganism was just patriarchal as Judeo-Christianity. The idea of solely Goddess-centric worship is a relatively new idea.


Well, you are right and wrong. True, this Goddess-centric worship as being a major influence is overall a relatively modern idea, and older pantheons often were very patriarchal, but let's not forget pantheons such as the Shinto one, where Amaterasu, the Sun Goddess, whom is the central deity amongst Shintoism and held in high regard.

While Goddess worship is not a new idea (which is not what you are saying, I understand), the concept of only a masculine or feminine deity is still relatively new compared to duality that includes Goddesses and Gods, and while male deities were typically held in higher regard more often, there are still some cases like the aforementioned with Shintoism where it was reverse. However, this example is an exception to the average, not the average itself-which I recognize is the point you are attempting to make as well Ben, unless I am presuming incorrectly.

Personally, I would have no qualms with someone who wished to worship solely a masculine aspect of divinity. Respecting balance and duality would of course qualify you as a Wiccan or not-for even Dianic Wiccans honor duality, despite misconceptions-so there could be no ignoring duality.

[Ailinea]

It is my understanding that the reason some Dianics worship only the Goddess is to balance out the domination of religions with a male deity. The idea is that while their own worship is not balanced, it balances the energy of the world by giving the Goddess her due. Not my cup of tea, really, just mentioning one reason why people do it...or so I've heard.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Well, you are right and wrong. True, this Goddess-centric worship as being a major influence is overall a relatively modern idea, and older pantheons often were very patriarchal, but let's not forget pantheons such as the Shinto one, where Amaterasu, the Sun Goddess, whom is the central deity amongst Shintoism and held in high regard.
True, which is why I said "most" :)

While Goddess worship is not a new idea (which is not what you are saying, I understand), the concept of only a masculine or feminine deity is still relatively new compared to duality that includes Goddesses and Gods, and while male deities were typically held in higher regard more often, there are still some cases like the aforementioned with Shintoism where it was reverse. However, this example is an exception to the average, not the average itself-which I recognize is the point you are attempting to make as well Ben, unless I am presuming incorrectly.
You presume correctly. Also, there seems to be a difference between "Western" religions (with which I would include Judeo-Christianity, Greek and Egyptian paganism, and other forms of paganism practiced by white Europeans) and "Eastern" religions (anything from Buddhism to Shintoism to Hinduism, etc.). Perhaps the Western world has more of a history of patriarchy than the Eastern world?

[Ben Trismegistus]

It is my understanding that the reason some Dianics worship only the Goddess is to balance out the domination of religions with a male deity. The idea is that while their own worship is not balanced, it balances the energy of the world by giving the Goddess her due. Not my cup of tea, really, just mentioning one reason why people do it...or so I've heard.
If you're speaking of Dianic Wiccans, they don't worship ONLY the Goddess, but they give the Goddess preferential treatment when compared to the God.

That said, I've heard the argument that you've mentioned. But I don't see why two wrongs should make a right.

[-Sky-]

There is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism without the Goddess? Excuse me, but that's a load of crap. There are plenty of religions, paths, and faiths that view Gods above Goddesses. There are witches who are Christian as well, and who do not place Mary above God or Jesus Christ. Then you have athiest witches. There is also Satanism, and of course Satanic witches. You're not spreading facts, you're spreading how you practice as a fact.

As I have already said, a high priest does not need a high priestess anymore than she needs him or a fish needs a bicycle. This is propoganda, no doubt derived by women who in my opinion were sick of religions that excluded women. Do not assume that just because you practice a path where women are placed above men that all feel this way, or that we will even take kindly to it.

Hinduism and Buddhism. Both are often considered Pagan, despite the fact that many of them would no doubt cringe at such a label. Not all Hindus or Buddhists worship a Goddess or even pay homage to one, despite there being respective female deities in each path.

Honestly, where you people get this pseudo sexism eludes me, and frankly I'm starting to grow more than just a bit annoyed with it all.

First of all,everything I wrote was MY opinion.When a question is asked everybody answers with their opinion or knowledge.I didn't try to make anyone believe what I believe but you can't judge me for believing sth and i DO believe what I wrote.
Thanks for pointing out some things I didn't know but you could have said it in a better way.And excuse me but I never called what you said a loads of crap.
And Hinduism and Buddhism might be considered paganism but they are not!Paganism is a western religion while the above are Eastern.
Let's end this here.
~Anna

[Aidron]

First of all,everything I wrote was MY opinion.When a question is asked everybody answers with their opinion or knowledge.I didn't try to make anyone believe what I believe but you can't judge me for believing sth and i DO believe what I wrote.
Thanks for pointing out some things I didn't know but you could have said it in a better way.And excuse me but I never called what you said a loads of crap.
And Hinduism and Buddhism might be considered paganism but they are not!Paganism is a western religion while the above are Eastern.
Let's end this here.
~Anna


You cannot expect people to realize that what you write is your opinion unless you state as such, and your phrasing was clearly not that of someone stating an opinion-which is why you need to denote it as such. I'm not judging you, I'm telling you not to convey your practices, beliefs, and opinions as fact. Explain them for what they are, your ideas, or phrase them more appropriately. Let's go over what you said again, shall we?

There is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism without the Goddess,she is the start and the end,she is the light and the darkness.

You are interlacing labels as Paganism, Witchcraft, and Wicca are one in the same. They, however, are not. Paganism is a grouping of religions, Wicca is a religion, and Witchcraft is just what its title refers to-a craft, and it is the craft of magic (often called low or folk magic). Plain and simple, and no Goddess needs to be involved in either Paganism or Witchcraft, and perhaps even Wicca depending on which sects you look into.

And as mentioned before a High-Priestess can lead a ritual alone but a High-Priest needs the High-Priestess.

Perhaps in your tradtion, not in mine, and not in many others. In fact, this train of thought is often the product sadly of women feeling oppressed and that the craft belongs solely to them. Some sects have very good reasons for working in this manner, but as with a lot of things in life-many do not beyond wanting to create an imbalance between the genders.

And I have never heard of a path that worships only the God...At least not a pagan path.And after all I do't think it existed or it will exist such path or tradition because from the start of the World people believe in the Great Mother,Nature and I don't think this will change among the pagans now.

As it has been pointed out to you, this concept of Goddess worship outside of a very select cases (Shintoism, for example as I have stated), is a relatively new idea in terms of placing her above a male deity or ignoring one all together. It existed, it continues to exist. Most cultural pantheons are ruled by a male figure. Greek (Zeus), Roman (Jupiter), Egyptian (Ra-though depending on who you speak to it could be Osiris or Horus, but I won't get into that here). Those pantheons typically did not have Queens of the Gods, but wives of the King of the Gods. That is patriarchal.

From the start of the world people believed in the Great Mother? Untrue. There is no proof of any central or all encompassing Goddess having ever existed throughout the ages. There are various important and prominent female deities with varying degrees of importance, but no ominpotent one that all turn to. Frankly, you have no proof of anything that occured at the beginning of time-and proof is defined by something that all can observe or test, none of us do, so again, watch how you phrase things. You may wish to believe that all Pagans are Goddess worshipers, and with no offense intended, that is delusional and limited in terms of how you are viewing things. There are honestly very many who do not even acknowledge a Goddess, and only recently is the Goddess begun taking a large and more important role among human beings. Before now, it was a rarity to see this at all-if ever.

And last, but not least: Paganism is a western religion? Kiddo, try researching a bit more. Paganism is not a religion, but a grouping of many religions, faiths, and practices. Hinduism and Buddhism are in fact eastern religions, but by the definition that they follow no Christian ethos, they are Pagan. That is sheer semantics, however, and while it is true that they are Pagan in this sense, most would probably take offense to it. That aside, the facts do not change on this.

So yes, let's end this here, before you start typing up anymore misconceptions and spreading them as facts.

[Aidron]

True, which is why I said "most" :)


You presume correctly. Also, there seems to be a difference between "Western" religions (with which I would include Judeo-Christianity, Greek and Egyptian paganism, and other forms of paganism practiced by white Europeans) and "Eastern" religions (anything from Buddhism to Shintoism to Hinduism, etc.). Perhaps the Western world has more of a history of patriarchy than the Eastern world?


To be quite honest, my findings are leading me to believe that more and more. In the east women often have a much stronger role and seem to garner more respect (past Turkey and the surrounding area, people, before anyone brings up Afghanistan). Though they have endured suffering (chinese foot binding with women), they tend to hold a great deal more power-at least mythologically and often from what I've seen socially (but I am not an expert on sociology so I cannot say it's an absolute).

To be quite honest, I can think of no other pantheon where a female deity is the chief and central form of divinity within a pantheon outside of Amaterasu. I imagine there is one out there, perhaps one I am unfamiliar with or one the so-called modern world has yet to encounter in some remote Amazonian tribe.

[teishabee]

You cannot expect people to realize that what you write is your opinion unless you state as such, and your phrasing was clearly not that of someone stating an opinion-which is why you need to denote it as such. I'm not judging you, I'm telling you not to convey your practices, beliefs, and opinions as fact. Explain them for what they are, your ideas, or phrase them more appropriately. Let's go over what you said again, shall we?



You are interlacing labels as Paganism, Witchcraft, and Wicca are one in the same. They, however, are not. Paganism is a grouping of religions, Wicca is a religion, and Witchcraft is just what its title refers to-a craft, and it is the craft of magic (often called low or folk magic). Plain and simple, and no Goddess needs to be involved in either Paganism or Witchcraft, and perhaps even Wicca depending on which sects you look into.



Perhaps in your tradtion, not in mine, and not in many others. In fact, this train of thought is often the product sadly of women feeling oppressed and that the craft belongs solely to them. Some sects have very good reasons for working in this manner, but as with a lot of things in life-many do not beyond wanting to create an imbalance between the genders.



As it has been pointed out to you, this concept of Goddess worship outside of a very select cases (Shintoism, for example as I have stated), is a relatively new idea in terms of placing her above a male deity or ignoring one all together. It existed, it continues to exist. Most cultural pantheons are ruled by a male figure. Greek (Zeus), Roman (Jupiter), Egyptian (Ra-though depending on who you speak to it could be Osiris or Horus, but I won't get into that here). Those pantheons typically did not have Queens of the Gods, but wives of the King of the Gods. That is patriarchal.

From the start of the world people believed in the Great Mother? Untrue. There is no proof of any central or all encompassing Goddess having ever existed throughout the ages. There are various important and prominent female deities with varying degrees of importance, but no ominpotent one that all turn to. Frankly, you have no proof of anything that occured at the beginning of time-and proof is defined by something that all can observe or test, none of us do, so again, watch how you phrase things. You may wish to believe that all Pagans are Goddess worshipers, and with no offense intended, that is delusional and limited in terms of how you are viewing things. There are honestly very many who do not even acknowledge a Goddess, and only recently is the Goddess begun taking a large and more important role among human beings. Before now, it was a rarity to see this at all-if ever.

And last, but not least: Paganism is a western religion? Kiddo, try researching a bit more. Paganism is not a religion, but a grouping of many religions, faiths, and practices. Hinduism and Buddhism are in fact eastern religions, but by the definition that they follow no Christian ethos, they are Pagan. That is sheer semantics, however, and while it is true that they are Pagan in this sense, most would probably take offense to it. That aside, the facts do not change on this.

So yes, let's end this here, before you start typing up anymore misconceptions and spreading them as facts.
I thought it would be planly obvious to anyone reading anyone else posts that it is just there opinion. I was going to say this before but I thought you might ride it out. But disecting others posts just to be rude to them isnt nice.

Please do not refer to Sky as kiddo, this is higly patronising and in my view not diserved. All anyone who has answered this post has tried to do is give their own honest opinion and reply to the original post.

I am not claiming to be all knowing and do enjoy your and ben's posts. As Im all for learning. But I never take anyone's posts here as fact. If all we were to post was that, I dont think this board would be as full.

I find Sky to have a great knowledge on Paganism.

So next time you see someone spreading incorrect information, I think it would be better if you explained in a more respecting matter and then maybe they might take your post in consideration instead of an insult.

[Aidron]

I thought it would be planly obvious to anyone reading anyone else posts that it is just there opinion. I was going to say this before but I thought you might ride it out. But disecting others posts just to be rude to them isnt nice.


I'm not intending to be rude, but this is a major pet peeve of mine to see someone demonstrate their opinion and practice as factual generalizations that all observe. Also, her facts are quite incorrect on a number of things.

Please do not refer to Sky as kiddo, this is higly patronising and in my view not diserved. All anyone who has answered this post has tried to do is give their own honest opinion and reply to the original post.

I refer to everyone as kiddo, whether you are 12, 25, or 75. It's my slang term to refer to someone when speaking to them. There's no ill will harbored in it, it's simply the way I speak. I interchange it with 'tiger' once in awhile, but not often.

I am not claiming to be all knowing and do enjoy your and ben's posts. As Im all for learning. But I never take anyone's posts here as fact. If all we were to post was that, I dont think this board would be as full.

I find Sky to have a great knowledge on Paganism.

So next time you see someone spreading incorrect information, I think it would be better if you explained in a more respecting matter and then maybe they might take your post in consideration instead of an insult.

Great knowledge? I admittedly find that surprising given she cannot even properly define Paganism.

If you take it as an insult, so be it, report the post, put me on ignore, take some of my karma away. However, I my bluntness stems from the fact that A.) that's how I am and B.) I grow weary of people, like Sky, who mingle facts with opinions and then do not even recognize it.

Before you come to someone's defense, perhaps you should read more carefully, especially given some of the things you said.

[teishabee]

I'm not intending to be rude, but this is a major pet peeve of mine to see someone demonstrate their opinion and practice as factual generalizations that all observe. Also, her facts are quite incorrect on a number of things.



I refer to everyone as kiddo, whether you are 12, 25, or 75. It's my slang term to refer to someone when speaking to them. There's no ill will harbored in it, it's simply the way I speak. I interchange it with 'tiger' once in awhile, but not often.



Great knowledge? I admittedly find that surprising given she cannot even properly define Paganism.

If you take it as an insult, so be it, report the post, put me on ignore, take some of my karma away. However, I my bluntness stems from the fact that A.) that's how I am and B.) I grow weary of people, like Sky, who mingle facts with opinions and then do not even recognize it.

Before you come to someone's defense, perhaps you should read more carefully, especially given some of the things you said.
Well the kiddo standed out. Maybe that was me. I have never noticed you use this term before in your posts. But then I wouldnt have term out of context.

I will defend my friend tho. Maybe thats just the person I am. So maybe I am quick to react to a post I see as offensive to them.

To be quite honest. I dont like disagreeing with you. I tend to think of you and Ben as knowlegded. But then this could just be my opinion. I wont say what the other options could be

As for putting you on ignore and reporting. All are valid options. I was goning to report but I thought I would stand behind my views and try and reason.

[Nacken]

To be quite honest, my findings are leading me to believe that more and more. In the east women often have a much stronger role and seem to garner more respect (past Turkey and the surrounding area, people, before anyone brings up Afghanistan). Though they have endured suffering (chinese foot binding with women), they tend to hold a great deal more power-at least mythologically and often from what I've seen socially (but I am not an expert on sociology so I cannot say it's an absolute).

I can't agree with you there. I'm not a sociologist, but I did live in China for several years, and visited Korea and Japan. I speak Mandarin, well, my son says that my accent sucks, but it is understandable. I travelled in Japan and Korea. I majored in Asian Studies. Historically, females in the upper classes had lower status there than here. Can you say the word harem? Its hard to make comparisons because of the different value systems being so different. For instance, in the 8 Confusian relationships that made up society's relationships, only one was between equals. Society has always been much more hierarchical there than here. There is only one relationship in which a woman is above a man (between mother and son while the father is still living). Within the peasantry, things were more equal because the woman's work was necessary and of value. But it was about the same here. There have been two female leaders in the past 1500 years, and both were maligned after their death. I can't see Chinese accepting a female head of state in the same way as the English did with Queen Elizabeth I.
In religion, Kwan Yin is still the most popular deity in Asia. But she is primarily worshipped by women. She is the goddess of mercy, and women have always been more in need of mercy or at the mercy of men. So don't romanticize the status of women in the far east. And Chinese have are considered to have given women higher social status than other asian countries. My understanding is that Chinese women have higher social status than Japanese who have a higher social understanding than Korean women. I havent lived in Korea or Jpan, so I can't say this for sure, but this is what I am told. I generally felt that the status of women in China today could be compared to the status of women here in the 1930s or 40s if that gives you a yardstick. Chinese men say that women are "stupider than men" and women have been trained to believe this to be true. I'm afraid that Asian women have been inaccurately portrayed in the west in our books and movies.

[Aidron]

Well the kiddo standed out. Maybe that was me. I have never noticed you use this term before in your posts. But then I wouldnt have term out of context.

I tend to use it in conversatoin moreso, with IMs, chat, and in person.

I will defend my friend tho. Maybe thats just the person I am. So maybe I am quick to react to a post I see as offensive to them.

To be quite honest. I dont like disagreeing with you. I tend to think of you and Ben as knowlegded. But then this could just be my opinion. I wont say what the other options could be

As for putting you on ignore and reporting. All are valid options. I was goning to report but I thought I would stand behind my views and try and reason.

You can defend your friend all you wish, that is not the point nor relevant to the issue at hand. She promoted her practices and beliefs as fact due to improper phrasing and should be more careful in how she speaks-that is all, nothing more.

She should also get more than a few facts straight, such as Paganism being a western religion.

[Aidron]

I can't agree with you there. I'm not a sociologist, but I did live in China for several years, and visited Korea and Japan. I speak Mandarin, well, my son says that my accent sucks, but it is understandable. I travelled in Japan and Korea. I majored in Asian Studies. Historically, females in the upper classes had lower status there than here. Can you say the word harem? Its hard to make comparisons because of the different value systems being so different. For instance, in the 8 Confusian relationships that made up society's relationships, only one was between equals. Society has always been much more hierarchical there than here. There is only one relationship in which a woman is above a man (between mother and son while the father is still living). Within the peasantry, things were more equal because the woman's work was necessary and of value. But it was about the same here. There have been two female leaders in the past 1500 years, and both were maligned after their death. I can't see Chinese accepting a female head of state in the same way as the English did with Queen Elizabeth I.
In religion, Kwan Yin is still the most popular deity in Asia. But she is primarily worshipped by women. She is the goddess of mercy, and women have always been more in need of mercy or at the mercy of men. So don't romanticize the status of women in the far east. And Chinese have are considered to have given women higher social status than other asian countries. My understanding is that Chinese women have higher social status than Japanese who have a higher social understanding than Korean women. I havent lived in Korea or Jpan, so I can't say this for sure, but this is what I am told. I generally felt that the status of women in China today could be compared to the status of women here in the 1930s or 40s if that gives you a yardstick. Chinese men say that women are "stupider than men" and women have been trained to believe this to be true. I'm afraid that Asian women have been inaccurately portrayed in the west in our books and movies.


Well, it really depends on the time line a lot of times, and also the culture. For example, in Japan there are many women who hold positions of power that rival that of any man. Socially (as opposed to career wise) there are places where men can go and have beautiful women serve them drinks (not gaeshas, entirely different scenario), but these same places also offer women handsome men to serve them drinks. It's really just as evolved as the west-if not more so. China is progressing, although a bit more slowly. It wasn't long ago that foot binding was still in practice after all.

In many cases, the woman holds a bit more power over a family in terms of decisions, who will marry whom, how funds are handled. That's not all cases though, and some, just like in America, are treated like scum.

Still, I think it should be a valuable point to note the position Amaterasu holds within Shintoism, and while it may not entirely reflect cultural and social customs with 100% accuracy, it is a rarity and impressive nonetheless.

They are inaccurately portrayed a good deal, but many shamanistic practices amongst Japan-and perhaps China and Korea, though I cannot recall-are allowed to women only. I believe they were featured on National Geographic once long ago, though I had read about their customs some time before that. I'm pretty sure it is Korea though, and the other details are a bit fuzzy as it has been some years and Korea is not exactly an interest of mine per se.

[Ailinea]

If you're speaking of Dianic Wiccans, they don't worship ONLY the Goddess, but they give the Goddess preferential treatment when compared to the God.

That said, I've heard the argument that you've mentioned. But I don't see why two wrongs should make a right.

I'm well aware that Dianics in general don't worship only the Goddess. But note that I said it's the reason *some* Dianics worship only the Goddess, which was in response to littleperson's original question stating that they do. Yes, the vast majority do acknowledge the God as her consort. I just wanted to put out the reasoning why *some* might choose to worship one over the other.

But that's neither here nor there. I agree with you that the end result is not two wrongs making a right. It's why I'm not Dianic.

[teishabee]

Well, it really depends on the time line a lot of times, and also the culture. For example, in Japan there are many women who hold positions of power that rival that of any man. Socially (as opposed to career wise) there are places where men can go and have beautiful women serve them drinks (not gaeshas, entirely different scenario), but these same places also offer women handsome men to serve them drinks. It's really just as evolved as the west-if not more so. China is progressing, although a bit more slowly. It wasn't long ago that foot binding was still in practice after all.



Its geisha. Dont go spreading disinformation.

Or geiko in some areas.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I'm well aware that Dianics in general don't worship only the Goddess. But note that I said it's the reason *some* Dianics worship only the Goddess, which was in response to littleperson's original question stating that they do. Yes, the vast majority do acknowledge the God as her consort. I just wanted to put out the reasoning why *some* might choose to worship one over the other.
OK :) It's a semantic argument, but as far as I'm concerned, Dianics who worship *only* the Goddess are not in fact Dianic Wiccans, but simply Goddess-worshippers. It's an issue which I tend to stand alone on, but I believe that the reverence of both the God & Goddess is a prerequisite to using the term "Wiccan", and therefore those who do not acknowledge the God (although, as you say, it's a relatively small percentage) are simply something other than Dianic Wiccans. But, as you shrewdly point out, it's rather beside the point.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Its geisha. Dont go spreading disinformation.

Or geiko in some areas.
Uh....... it's actually an English transliteration of a Japanese word, so the English spelling doesn't really matter as long as the pronunciation is correct.

And while we're on the subject, I don't see how the sentence "There is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism without the Goddess" can be interpreted as an opinion, rather than a statement of fact. I agree that it's important to take virtually everything on this site as a statement of opinion, but all of this could have been alleviated had Sky simply said, "I believe that there is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism without the Goddess" or "In my opinion, there is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism without the Goddess". Simple as that.

[Mithrea]

For the record, Dianicism is just as diverse as paganism itself. Many Dianics, like myself don't think the Goddess is more important than the God, they have just suffered so much by the hands of male dominated religion that they need a "safe" space in their life, free from the male energy which reminds them of past molestation/insult/whatever. You may say "hey that's a personal problem" and you'd be right, but it doesn't make my practice less valid. Dianicism for me is about the way I choose to *practice* and *express* my religious longings. It's not about what is right or wrong or what anyone else believes about Wicca or witchcraft or paganism. Personally I think we all need to butt out of each other's practices. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong. It just makes it not for you.

There is a different kind of energy to an all female circle. I can't explain it in words, it's something you have to experience and it's definitely beneficial to my spiritual well-being. The same is probably true for an all male circle. It's something I do not get out of mixed gender circles. I can never experience an all male circle and that is just part of the mystery and mystique to me :)

So my point was, just in case I lost it was that there is a difference in basic beliefs and basic practices. For some Dianics it's about the practice, not the beliefs. The beliefs are the same as any Wiccan, they just choose to practice differently from other Wiccans.

[Ben Trismegistus]

For the record, Dianicism is just as diverse as paganism itself. Many Dianics, like myself don't think the Goddess is more important than the God, they have just suffered so much by the hands of male dominated religion that they need a "safe" space in their life, free from the male energy which reminds them of past molestation/insult/whatever. You may say "hey that's a personal problem" and you'd be right, but it doesn't make my practice less valid. Dianicism for me is about the way I choose to *practice* and *express* my religious longings. It's not about what is right or wrong or what anyone else believes about Wicca or witchcraft or paganism. Personally I think we all need to butt out of each other's practices. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong. It just makes it not for you.

There is a different kind of energy to an all female circle. I can't explain it in words, it's something you have to experience and it's definitely beneficial to my spiritual well-being. The same is probably true for an all male circle. It's something I do not get out of mixed gender circles. I can never experience an all male circle and that is just part of the mystery and mystique to me :)

So my point was, just in case I lost it was that there is a difference in basic beliefs and basic practices. For some Dianics it's about the practice, not the beliefs. The beliefs are the same as any Wiccan, they just choose to practice differently from other Wiccans.
Just so you know, in case it got lost in my other posts, I fully support anyone's right to practice however they please, and for whatever reasons. My previous argument was about whether certain types of Goddess-worship can be described as Wicca -- seeing as you acknowledge the God as well as the Goddess, you fit the bill as far as I'm concerned. But even if you didn't, that would change your right to practice in whatever way you deem appropriate.

[teishabee]

Uh....... it's actually an English transliteration of a Japanese word, so the English spelling doesn't really matter as long as the pronunciation is correct.

And while we're on the subject, I don't see how the sentence "There is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Peopleism without the Goddess" can be interpreted as an opinion, rather than a statement of fact. I agree that it's important to take virtually everything on this site as a statement of opinion, but all of this could have been alleviated had Sky simply said, "I believe that there is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Peopleism without the Goddess" or "In my opinion, there is no Wicca/Witchcraft/Peopleism without the Goddess". Simple as that.

Well I just thought Id state the correct term.

As to Sky original post. Im sorry you dont think her English is not phrased correctly but English is not her first language.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Well I just thought Id state the correct term.
And as I stated, there is no correct term, just like there's no correct spelling of Hanukkah/Chanukah or Qabala/Kabalah.

As to Sky original post. Im sorry you dont think her English is not phrased correctly but English is not her first language.
Her English seems perfectly phrased to me. I don't see anything that indicates anything less than a proficiency with the language. I'm simply saying that if you mean something as an opinion, say that. Otherwise, don't get mad at us when we interpret it as a statement of fact.

[Aidron]

For the record, gaesha is the english spelling most often used by japanese. While Ben's point is correct, I believe they would be more proficient at translating their own words. The same is true of spellings concerning Amaterasu. While most would not recognize the name often as interpreted by japanese who speak english as Ameterasu, or think you are merely misspelling it, it's actually more common amongst the japanese.

And I agree with Ben in regards to her use of the english language. I was once a grammar nazi to the tenth degree, and I see nothing that would denote or convey a lack of skill with the language-and typos do not count. Regardless of all that, the way she went about phrasing it was conveyed as factual, and thus where my problems with her statements arise from.

Lastly, her definition of terms leaves me to have to disagree with you in terms of knowledge concerning Paganism. Before you consider a rebuttle to that, however, that is not a personal attack as I know how often people wish to interpret things as such. It is an observation only.

[LittlePerson]

Ben is in this thread moderating it on my account. Simply seeking the information for my question I knew that this was going to get ugly so I alerted him to close it but he was nice enough to keep it open and watch it so that it might remain informative. So, from what I gather, wiccan who have a patriarchial patron god still have a matriarchal one too that they always worship alongside? Because I could be wrong. See, from what I've seen on the board, there are some people who have patron and some who have matron gods and I thought it was to those gods that they pay their homage. So, if someone gets a "calling" from a god rather than a goddess, who is to say it'd be wrong to set up an altar for that god and worship that god instead of a goddess, which I've also seen done the majority of the time. Perhaps I'm confused about this as I've only recently discovered my deity, who happens to be male but is also considered both male and female at the same time also. So what happens to someone like me if you are wiccan (though I'd like to point out again that I'm not, I'm just learning here.) and you get a calling to worship a male deity or one considered male and female? Do you keep honoring the female side of deity by paying homage to an unamed goddess using Lady and then name the male side with the name of the God who has called you? I'm just curious here how that'd work. I know of someone here, I won't say names, who worships three gods (male) though I don't know if it is to the exlusion of all other gods/ddesses. So, do you all understand where I'm coming from now people? Also, this would apply to solo praticitioner and not a coven. Ok? Phew.
BTW, I am not totally niave about wicca okay? Just specific paths.

[Kendrah]

Is there a path of wiccan that worships only the male side of the male/female duality of deity? Like Dianic wicca only opposite? Or are there wiccan here who only worship a male God instead of a using the normal Goddess or both? What do you do to make it work? Do you replace words in your invocation, circle, ect to make it only Lord? Thanks.

I can't see why not. It's a form of sexism that I hate to see in the Craft. Why can't there be circles dedicated to the God? Because the Goddess is all powerful? More important? Now you get one guess as to which major religions that sounds like...

There was a God Circle here in Utah that lasted a year or two and would do rituals once a month based on a different God (of course, they were formed from a couple men being sick of the Goddess Circle around town here and eventually closed shop because of some issues.)

I, myself, is drawn more to the male then female. I have one relationship with a deity who is male so I tend to use the male aspect more then the female.

I don't know of any traditions that focus more on the male then female... But the thing with traditions is that they're just a set of rules for people to come together and "play nice". It's the personal practice of the people involved that matters. So I don't think you'd gather a straight and true picture of people who are geared more towards the God by looking at traditions.

But, of course, this is all my (*coughs* never humble *coughs) opinion.

[Phoenix Blue]

In all my years of study I have found that Wicca/Witchcraft is a Goddess based religion. You can worship only the Goddess, but not just the God.
Please prove this assertion or retract it. Littleperson's very question seems to indicate that God worship in Paganism is possible. Whether it's actually Wicca, I would hesitate to venture a guess.

Personally, I give the Lord his due. That is what Samhain means to me. It is the time when the Goddess retreats and the God steps forward to rule until the Lady retuns on Beltane.
That's a curious due, given that every tradition I've studied commemorates Samhuinn as the death of the God, not the "retreat" of the Goddess. The Goddess stands alone until Yule, when she bears the God anew. Bealtuinn symbolizes the courtship between the Goddess and God.

Obviously you've learned differently. I'd be interested in knowing your sources.

Another thing: A High Priestess does not need a High Priest. A High Priest cannot work without a High Priestess.
I call bullshit. A soul is a soul. While a balance of male and female is ideal, there is no reason why a High Priest cannot work without a High Priestess. Men are just as capable spiritually as women.

All I can do is pass on what I have learned over the last 45 years.
Then how is it I've learned more about Wicca and Paganism in the last nine years than you seem to display here despite 45 years of experience? I must point out that the amount of time you have practiced a religion has nothing to do with how much you know about it. I know more about Christianity than many people who've been Christian all their lives, because I have chosen to study it in-depth.

[WeepingWillow]

Hey, I only worshio one being, I worship the Goddess, Mother Nature. That's what they call a Whitewitch. You see it right under my name. I guess that's a branch of Paganism but whatever. I'm just happy to finally have something I believe in :yayhawaii

[Ailinea]

So, from what I gather, wiccan who have a patriarchial patron god still have a matriarchal one too that they always worship alongside? Because I could be wrong.

Not necessarily. Some do, but not all. Heck, I wouldn't even say *most* have an "equal and opposite" set of male/female deities that they worship.

See, from what I've seen on the board, there are some people who have patron and some who have matron gods and I thought it was to those gods that they pay their homage. So, if someone gets a "calling" from a god rather than a goddess, who is to say it'd be wrong to set up an altar for that god and worship that god instead of a goddess, which I've also seen done the majority of the time.

I see nothing wrong with that. Gods deserve some attention too.

Perhaps I'm confused about this as I've only recently discovered my deity, who happens to be male but is also considered both male and female at the same time also. So what happens to someone like me if you are wiccan (though I'd like to point out again that I'm not, I'm just learning here.) and you get a calling to worship a male deity or one considered male and female? Do you keep honoring the female side of deity by paying homage to an unamed goddess using Lady and then name the male side with the name of the God who has called you? I'm just curious here how that'd work.

I tend to think of it this way: So you have (at least) 4 grandparents (I'm not going into the re-marriage, adoptive, or other familial situations here). You may love them all, but there may be one that you're closer to. Just because you're more able to share your innermost thoughts and ask advice from Grandpa doesn't mean you don't honor Grandma and the other two grandparents too. You put a little extra thought and caring into brithday presents for Grandpa, and cry a little harder when he eventually dies. He shared that special connection with you...same as your patron (or matron) deity.

I know of someone here, I won't say names, who worships three gods (male) though I don't know if it is to the exlusion of all other gods/ddesses.

That's the way that person chooses to worship. The way I see it, as long as the gods don't argue with each other about who has the biggest...statue on the altar, why not? <grin>

[Ben Trismegistus]

Ben is in this thread moderating it on my account. Simply seeking the information for my question I knew that this was going to get ugly so I alerted him to close it but he was nice enough to keep it open and watch it so that it might remain informative.
That's right. So watch your back or I'll bust some heads! :smash:

:) OK, so Ailinea gave some good answers to your latest post, but I'll add some stuff too.

So, from what I gather, wiccan who have a patriarchial patron god still have a matriarchal one too that they always worship alongside? Because I could be wrong. See, from what I've seen on the board, there are some people who have patron and some who have matron gods and I thought it was to those gods that they pay their homage.
In my definition of Wicca (which is shared by a good number of people), the polarity of the gods is that you recognize that both gods and goddesses exist, so as to achieve polar balance in the universe. How you choose to worship those gods and goddesses is entirely up to you. If your practice is 90% God, 10% Goddess (or vice versa), that's fine, as long as you acknowledge that the other is still there.

And your patron gods are entirely different. Just because you focus on one god or goddess doesn't mean that the rest cease to exist. Ailinea's grandparent analogy is a good one. Additionally, just because you have a patron god doesn't mean that all of your rituals have to be directed towards that god. For instance, you may have the Morrigan as your patron, but you can still do an obstacle-removing ritual that calls on Ganesh, for instance.

Now, keep in mind that I was speaking for Wicca. If you're not a Wiccan, you can believe or practice whatever the heck you want. If you want to believe that there is a Goddess but no God, or vice versa, more power to you.

So, if someone gets a "calling" from a god rather than a goddess, who is to say it'd be wrong to set up an altar for that god and worship that god instead of a goddess, which I've also seen done the majority of the time.
Of course it's not wrong. You can honor whoever you like, as long as you recognize that the rest are still there.

Perhaps I'm confused about this as I've only recently discovered my deity, who happens to be male but is also considered both male and female at the same time also. So what happens to someone like me if you are wiccan (though I'd like to point out again that I'm not, I'm just learning here.) and you get a calling to worship a male deity or one considered male and female? Do you keep honoring the female side of deity by paying homage to an unamed goddess using Lady and then name the male side with the name of the God who has called you? I'm just curious here how that'd work.
Well, you've got a number of options. You can honor that deity as God AND Goddess, or one or the other. You can pair that deity up with another from the same pantheon for ritual purposes, or you can choose not to. It's really up to you.

BTW, I am not totally niave about wicca okay? Just specific paths.
The high quality of your questions shows that you're not totally naive about Wicca. :)

[WeepingWillow]

In all my years of study I have found that Wicca/Witchcraft is a Goddess based religion. You can worship only the Goddess, but not just the God.

Personally, I give the Lord his due. That is what Samhain means to me. It is the time when the Goddess retreats and the God steps forward to rule until the Lady retuns on Beltane.

Another thing: A High Priestess does not need a High Priest. A High Priest cannot work without a High Priestess.

All I can do is pass on what I have learned over the last 45 years.


I only worship the Goddess. I guess what you're trying to say is that a woman can live without a man but a man cannot live without the woman. LOL. But that's weird. So you can only worship just the god if you were catholic or something? :bumpsmili But you can't in Wicca? That's pretty funny :hehehehe:

:bouncybob <I love this little guy

[LittlePerson]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I suppose, I can't remember who told me this, I think it's my friend equinox, that I am hedonistic. That means that though I choose to worship one god out of many, I don't disbelieve their existance or that they deserve worship from their worshippers. It's just that I don't worship all the Gods, just the one that has called to me and perhaps in time others will. So, given that I think of what Ben said about matron and patron Gods and using other Gods in ritual. In wicca, if using other gods/desses in rituals other than one's patron or matron God, would that be considered a form of worship? Getting technical here, I know. Anyway, thanks for the help Ailinea. It has given me more to think about.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I suppose, I can't remember who told me this, I think it's my friend equinox, that I am hedonistic. That means that though I choose to worship one god out of many, I don't disbelieve their existance or that they deserve worship from their worshippers. It's just that I don't worship all the Gods, just the one that has called to me and perhaps in time others will. So, given that I think of what Ben said about matron and patron Gods and using other Gods in ritual. In wicca, if using other gods/desses in rituals other than one's patron or matron God, would that be considered a form of worship? Getting technical here, I know. Anyway, thanks for the help Ailinea. It has given me more to think about.
I think the word you're looking for is henotheistic. Hedonistic means that you like being naughty. ;) You could be both, of course.

And to answer your question, it depends on what you mean by worship. You can honor all the gods and only worship one. You can recognize all the gods, and revere some of them, and worship one or two. In my experience, patron gods don't generally get jealous if you invoke or worship other gods sometimes.

[Lady Avalon]

According to Webster a pagan is, "1.one of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion, as the ancient Romans and Greeks. 2. a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim, heathen." Webster also define heathen as "1. an unconverted individual of a people that do not acknowledge the God of the Bible or Kran; pagan.2. an irreligious, uncultured, or uncivilized person." (Webster's Amrican Family Deictionary, published 1998).

So, as you can see, one cannot be "pagan" and Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim. As for the ancient Greeks, you need to reread the stories. Hera was the wife of Zeus. She got sick and tired of his infeldeities. She helped in the revolt by the Gods agains Zeus. In the end, they did not win and Zeus had Hera in a position where she had to agree never to revolt agains him again. She kept her word but.......she did get involved in many intregues against him and often was quite successful. According to the mythology, the women out did the men.

In many oriental philirrosophies, women are more powerful than men. They are more spiritual also. There is a long history of this, but in order to understand it, you must read and study. On the Winter Soltice this year, I will be 56. I have been at this a very, long time.

One thing to remember, when you study The Ancients, you will find that there is a ruler of the Gods. Usually this is a male. A male may rule, but no where have I found it stated that he is more powerful than a female.

So you see my friend, we are not postulating a Power Struggle here. This is what I have learned. I am most interested in anything any of you have found that would help advance my knowledge. All I ask is that you give me the title of the material and if possible, the author. If I can't track it down, I'll let you know.

Now, about Webster calling us "irreligious, uncivilized, or uncultured," I take a BIG exception to that. I have found that we are talented, love our dieties more than most, we are cultured, and refined. Maybe we Pagans should take Webster to court over this. Maybe we can get the ACLU to help.

[Phoenix Blue]

As for the ancient Greeks, you need to reread the stories. Hera was the wife of Zeus. She got sick and tired of his infeldeities. She helped in the revolt by the Gods agains Zeus. In the end, they did not win and Zeus had Hera in a position where she had to agree never to revolt agains him again. She kept her word but.......she did get involved in many intregues against him and often was quite successful. According to the mythology, the women out did the men.
From the anecdote you just related, it sounds to me like the men were pretty firmly in control. Regardless, Greek society was patriarchal, so there's not much sense in suggesting their pantheon wouldn't reflect that.

Now, about Webster calling us "irreligious, uncivilized, or uncultured," I take a BIG exception to that. I have found that we are talented, love our dieties more than most, we are cultured, and refined. Maybe we Pagans should take Webster to court over this. Maybe we can get the ACLU to help.
Maybe I'm beginning to smell a troll. I mean, are you serious? Why don't we just accept the fact that we are more than an entry in a dictionary and get over it? That seems like it'd be a lot more mature in the long run.

[Aidron]

So, as you can see, one cannot be "pagan" and Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim. As for the ancient Greeks, you need to reread the stories. Hera was the wife of Zeus. She got sick and tired of his infeldeities. She helped in the revolt by the Gods agains Zeus. In the end, they did not win and Zeus had Hera in a position where she had to agree never to revolt agains him again. She kept her word but.......she did get involved in many intregues against him and often was quite successful. According to the mythology, the women out did the men.

What few people seem to grasp, however, is that Hera was the Wife of Zeus and I have never found any record of her being referred to as the Queen of the Gods outside of modern day analogies. A wife in no way, shape, or form rivals a King in terms of power. The men in most of western culture, from Greece to the Celts, were very much in charge and most socieities were patriarchal. As PB said, their pantheons would reflect who they are, and thus it is an entirely fallicious perspective.

In many oriental philirrosophies, women are more powerful than men. They are more spiritual also. There is a long history of this, but in order to understand it, you must read and study. On the Winter Soltice this year, I will be 56. I have been at this a very, long time.

More spiritual? Rarely. More powerful? Rarely. In terms of pantheons, there are a few exceptions, such as Amaterasu within Shintoism, but even she was created by her father-a more powerful deity than him. She simply governs the Plain of Heaven within the religion. As for the women in an actual sociological context, some do hold more power, but no more than westerners and sometimes much less-which I have begun to look into heavily since I pondered this very thing recently.

Perhaps you should read and study a bit more. Years of experience in way no show proof of knowledge or wisdom, since you are not intent on repeating that fact in the posts I have seen you make. There are people who have been doing things for most their life and are still nowhere near being decent in skill or even the best. That is almost borderline agism, and not very polite if I do say so myself.

One thing to remember, when you study The Ancients, you will find that there is a ruler of the Gods. Usually this is a male. A male may rule, but no where have I found it stated that he is more powerful than a female.

Ahem, if the male rules, he is more powerful. To rule equates with power in terms of this context.

So you see my friend, we are not postulating a Power Struggle here. This is what I have learned. I am most interested in anything any of you have found that would help advance my knowledge. All I ask is that you give me the title of the material and if possible, the author. If I can't track it down, I'll let you know.

Now, about Webster calling us "irreligious, uncivilized, or uncultured," I take a BIG exception to that. I have found that we are talented, love our dieties more than most, we are cultured, and refined. Maybe we Pagans should take Webster to court over this. Maybe we can get the ACLU to help.


For the record, I think a lot of this... malarky about women being more spiritual, powerful, and equivalent to men in patriarchal societies stems from many women's own dislike of the situation. I'm no fan of it myself, and while I am no woman, I still look at the facts as objectively as I can. I have no desire to rule women, or men for that matter, and I have no desire to be ruled-especially by women who feel they are required to further my own spiritual practices-and I would be just as equally irritated if it were a man insisting such. I'll admit, it's an ugly situation when either gender dominates the other, but that's no reason to fall victom to illusions based on contempt over the situation. The sad matter of the fact is-that for the most part, women were not in power in many cultures, divine or mortal. Thankfully things are shifting toward more of a balance between the genders, but providing misinformation and the idea that women are required for all to further their spirituality is not only silly, but counter productive and hypocritical. It's fine if that is your practice, but you clearly phrased it more as a fact in your first post within this thread.

[Wiccamagikal]

Who is the goddess! I am having SUCH trouble finding which one to pay adue to...its driving me crazy. I really honor and respect mother earth, is there a goddess that has to do with that? I dont know, I always thought wicca was an earth based religion, that sometimes uses energies provided by mother earth...to do some good! Ahh! Can anyone give me some advice on goddess worship?? Private message me if you will... :reading:

[LittlePerson]

I think the word you're looking for is henotheistic. Hedonistic means that you like being naughty. ;) You could be both, of course.

And to answer your question, it depends on what you mean by worship. You can honor all the gods and only worship one. You can recognize all the gods, and revere some of them, and worship one or two. In my experience, patron gods don't generally get jealous if you invoke or worship other gods sometimes.Lol, thanks ben, I meant henotheistic. I got all four of my wisdom molars out wednesday and all the pain and painkillers as made me kind of muddled.