Which date is what?

[teishabee]

Ok
:strike:
Now Im new to all this
A few questions....

Halloween if Im right in thinking is just an american holiday...This is celebrated on the 31st. This is also Known as All halloeves.

All saints day being the following day 1st November. A christian Holiday

Halloween is it a modern concept or a sabbat?

Also then around this time is Samhain. A celtic/ Wiccan sabbat

So what date does Samhain fall on?

31st oct
20th oct - following the pre christain calender
1st of November
6th of November

Or none of these but the first drop of frost.

Its all very confusing. These are the dates Ive seen around.

Also is samhain different to halloween or are they the same?

[mucgwyrt]

no, its not just american; my parents and grandparents here in england celebrated it also.

Samhain is usually the same date; oct 31st. The 6th/7th is the astrological half-way point between the equinox and solstice, so some celebrate samhain then. The 11th (I think) is the nearest Dark Moon, so some celebrate it then. (The last two dates change every year, so most ust go with oct 31st)

In theory, Halloween is derived from Samhain :)

[SacredWithin]

But isn't it different depending on which hemisphere of the Earth? The Southern hemisphere has it totally different. But the actually Halloween day is probably the same, but to th Pagans down there, I thought it was different...

[mucgwyrt]

They usually put it on the of the year, if you know what I mean - which would be may (?).
I never saw the point in this though; if samhain is simply a celebration of the dead and "the veil is thinner" at this time of the year, then surely that's a global phenomenon, not season dependent.

[SacredWithin]

I never saw the point in this though; if samhain is simply a celebration of the dead and "the veil is thinner" at this time of the year, then surely that's a global phenomenon, not season dependent.

Hmm... very interesting and good point. But aren't the seasons a little different? Wouldn't at least the major ones be reveresed? (I seriously need to go study...)
:hrmm:

[mucgwyrt]

Yeah; their summer is our winter and visa-versa, so presumabley the solstice and equinox celebrations would need to trade places.

[Seren_]

There's also November 11th because some people kept it then instead of October 31st after the calendar system changed from the old Julian to the new Gregorian (I think I have that the right way round...). So some trads celebrate the "major" Samhain on October 31 and the "minor" Samhain on November 11. Or continue celebrations through that period...

[Gede]

MM~
I have celebrated the Wheel of the Year several times over now and live in Australia so naturally we appropriate the timing of each Sabbat to coincide with the seasonal and astronomical shifts because in essence the Sabbats are descended from a fertility tradition. They are a celebration of the tidal currents of the Earth, the magnetic energy in conjunction with the passage of the moon and the sun. However I do know some Pagans here that celebrate the Sabbats in accordance with northern tradition because their spirituality is rooted in the ancestral reverence of Druidry for example and to reinforce that link they follow that pattern. However because I do not find myself connected to the Celts greatly I have no need to do this. As one of my friends puts it..."It would be strange to celebrate Summer's height in the middle of Winter" ;)

Namaste, Gede...

[mucgwyrt]

MM~
I have celebrated the Wheel of the Year several times over now and live in Australia so naturally we appropriate the timing of each Sabbat to coincide with the seasonal and astronomical shifts because in essence the Sabbats are descended from a fertility tradition. They are a celebration of the tidal currents of the Earth, the magnetic energy in conjunction with the passage of the moon and the sun. However I do know some Peoples here that celebrate the Sabbats in accordance with northern tradition because their spirituality is rooted in the ancestral reverence of Druidry for example and to reinforce that link they follow that pattern. However because I do not find myself connected to the Celts greatly I have no need to do this. As one of my friends puts it..."It would be strange to celebrate Summer's height in the middle of Winter" ;)

Namaste, Gede...
If you feel no connection to the celts, why celebrate the celtic festivals at all?

[Raydreamer]

I was under the impression samhain was "sanitised" by the christians way back into Halloween (all Hallows eve)
I think that might be quite wrong though. It doesn't seem to fit.
Another theory is that the Spanish brought it back to europe from central and south america and it spread from there. In Mexico they celebrate death day where everyone dresses up and eats skull candy and things. It's when the barriers between the worlds weaken and the spirits and dead are present. They have parties in graveyards and things to celebrate the cyle of life and death and talk to their ancestors.
Maybe when the settlers went over to America they also picked it up from the South Americans which would explain the tradition moving north.

But really...I am absoluely clueless and could be talking a load of bananas! :lol:

[Gede]

MM~
If you feel no connection to the celts, why celebrate the celtic festivals at all?

I do so because of my Wiccan background. I was initiated into a Wiccan Coven several years ago and the practice has grown on me and I find it spiritually enriching on a much larger scale than perhaps concentrating on the fact that the festivals were originally derived from Celtic pastoral observances.

I said I do not feel a great connection to their culture but I can still relate and draw inspiration from it because in truth there is not one culture that I admire over any other. All cultures fascinate me in their mysteries and I long to learn about each and every one. However as I see it the Sabbats mean a lot to me, I have a history with them and I feel empowered through celebrating them, much in the same way that I can not let go of the Wiccan tradition of Quarter-calling because over the years I have formed relationships with the Elementals and why deny their significance to my spiritual path simply because historically the practice descends from ceremonial Magick and Enochian Ritual, though there are many cultures that have designated spirits to the cardinal directions and have further passed on personalised associations.

If I have insulted you I am sorry, it is simply the way I have grown~

Namaste, Gede...

[mucgwyrt]

Your reason are fair enough imo :fpeace:
(and dont be silly, you haven't insulted me :lol: I was honestly curious and you've answered my question :D)

[*Rain*]

This is quite useful for a basic overview of the history of Halloween

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/halloween/index.shtml

[mucgwyrt]

Ahh once again, god bless the beeb :D

Although saying that, their "pagan" calendar looks ever-so wiccan :gagged: and they dont even mention the anglo-saxons in their Yule section :flamer:

[*Rain*]

I agree that they've over simplified a lot of stuff, but if they've shoved a non-pagan into researching then they probably think they've got a pretty accurate report. Looking on the internet gives mostly wiccan sites, so you can imagine what must look like the norm to those not in the know.

While wicca is becoming the average description of 'witch' or 'pagan', it means the rest of us are getitng lumped in for the ride. I'm always surprised at the number of people, who when I say i'm a pagan, automatically say - oh so you're wiccan. I get annoyed by it, not to that person, they don't know any different, but in general. My beliefs are so far removed from wicca that I hate people assuming that's what I believe.

[equinox2]

They usually put it on the of the year, if you know what I mean - which would be may (?).
I never saw the point in this though; if samhain is simply a celebration of the dead and "the veil is thinner" at this time of the year, then surely that's a global phenomenon, not season dependent.


Samhain is in the fall because the wheel of the year maps the human lifespan onto the natural cycle of birth in the spring, life in the summer, and death in the fall. As such, it isn’t only a “Celtic thing” but fits with many earth based religions to reverse all the holidays for people in the southern hemisphere.

This analogy of a seeing the natural yearly cycle as a metaphor for the human lifespan is a big part of my spirituality too, and I’m not Wiccan. My use of the wheel is described in more detail here:
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~leta/TREATISE/TJPSUM/woverv/wovervhome.htm

So if I were in the Southern hemisphere, I’d now be preparing for Beltane, not Samhain. It really comes down to whether or not your spirituality is “Earth based”.

May the wind lift your spirits-

[Shanti]

Samhain:(Scots Gaelic: Samhuinn) literally means “summer's end.”

Originally...Samhain is the winter season of the ancient Celts.

According to the Celtic calendar, the year was divided into four
quarters: Samhain (winter), Imbolc (spring), Beltane (summer), and Lughnasadh (autumn). The Celtic year began
in November, with Samhain. The Celts were influenced principally by the lunar and
stellar cycles which governed the agricultural year - beginning and ending in autumn
when the crops have been harvested and the soil is
prepared for the winter. Pronunciation differs radically between different groups of
Celtic language speakers. The word "Samhain" is probably derived
from the Irish Gaelic word "samhraidhreadh", or "summer's end". Samhain is also known
as Calan Gaeaf to the Welsh. Bealtaine, Lúnasa and Samhain are still today
the names of the months of May, August and November
in the Irish language.

Samhain Eve, in Irish, Oidhche Shamhna, is one of the principal festivals of the Celtic calendar, and is thought to fall on or around the 31st of October. It represents the final harvest. In modern Ireland,
the name by which Halloween is known in the Irish language is still "Oíche Shamhna".