Nudity in Wicca

[Paije]

Newbie question, How did nudity come to be an intricate part of Wicca/Paganism? Why is it that we go skyclad? Other than for rebirth during first initiation I am at a loss to find info supporting why we need to be without clothing during ritual or otherwise. Help? :geez:

Love and Light,
paije

[halfwaynowhere]

well, we were born naked, we were pressured by society to wear clothing. i think it haas something to do with going back to nature.

[violet rain]

well for me clothing blocks my bodies energy and it also blocks receiving energy

[-Ember]

'Cause Gardner was also into naturalism (nudism). There are some arguments for why/why not it works metaphysically or historically for paganism, but the base line is Wicca got defined by Gardner and he believed in ritual nudity.

[Seren_]

Try reading this from the online version of Gardner's Book of Shadows (http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/gbos/gbos24.htm).

Gardner's idea was that power exudes from the skin and clothes can act as a dampener. So no clothes, no problem. And in the circle, the energies can be properly contained, adding to the power of the ritual.

And as Ember said, Gardner was a keen naturist too.

[Gede]

MM~
I don't practice skyclad because I like to keep warm ;) It's only rarely that I do and I can probably count the amount of times on one hand. There has been a two-part series in Australia's Witchcraft magazine concerning the whys of going skyclad, its history, benefits etc. It is believed that Gardner, influenced by his naturist inclinations, during his travels in Asia may have learnt of a sect of Jain adherents that abstain from wearing clothing in an effort to be one with the Elements. Gardner also theorised that clothing could act as an obstacle for the energy being raised which I think is a crock of s*it because then walls would also manage to stand in the way of the path of energy. Oh well...whatever floats your boat~

Namaste, Gede...

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

It isn't an integral part of paganism. There are many, many pagans who don't practice skyclad. I certainly don't, it's not practical. And as a recon it makes further sense to not, because it wouldn't have been practical for them either.

As for how it was introduced into Wicca, like was mentioned above it was Gardner.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Like others have said, the theory is that working skyclad allows for a less obstructed flow of energy. And Doreen Valiente's Charge of the Goddess states: "And you shall be free from slavery. And as a sign that you are truly free, you shall be naked in your rites."

From personal experience, I can say that working skyclad (especially in a group) lends to the "otherworldliness" of the ritual. It's just another way to set off ritual work from your normal life. It's beneficial to some, not to others. I happen to like it - I find that my skyclad rituals are substantially more powerful. My coven, on average, works skyclad maybe 2-3 times a year.

[mucgwyrt]

see, I would just find it cold. And awkward. Lots of "oh, I dropped my doo-dah" and "I'll get that for you!" and "erm... thanks... *silence*" :lol:

[Theres]

Like others have said, the theory is that working skyclad allows for a less obstructed flow of energy. And Doreen Valiente's Charge of the Goddessstates: "And you shall be free from slavery. And as a sign that you are truly free, you shall be naked in your rites."
... which is actually from Leyland's Aradia.

the idea of one's magick being blocked by a layer of cloth has always seems silly to me.
i don't generally practice skyclad, but i have. the one thing that i get from it in a group setting is the feeling of trust that you share with your group when ALL of your physical barriers are down.

but it is not required, and i don't even think that it is the more common practice. as stated, Gardner was a nudist, and when he invented his new religion he threw that in. but i'm not buying that this is how the ancient Celts practiced. skyclad at Callenish for Yule? ... NO THANKS!

[Raven Reed]

Our coven has only worked skyclad for very specific rituals, and darned few of those. For instance, a croning ceremony might be, at the behest of the person being croned... But many of our members wouldn't work skyclad for anything.

Wouldn't bug me much, as long as we are inside. I hate the cold!

[Ben Trismegistus]

see, I would just find it cold. And awkward. Lots of "oh, I dropped my doo-dah" and "I'll get that for you!" and "erm... thanks... *silence*" :lol:It's a lot less awkward than you might expect. I worked with my coven for over a year, in very close circumstances (including first degree initiations), before we were ever skyclad together. By that time, we were all so close with each other that being naked together seemed like the most natural thing in the world. And completely non-sexual, I should add.

(Oh and there's always heat or a fire - haven't frozen my tootsies yet!)

[mucgwyrt]

It's a lot less awkward than you might expect. I worked with my coven for over a year, in very close circumstances (including first degree initiations), before we were ever skyclad together. By that time, we were all so close with each other that being naked together seemed like the most natural thing in the world. And completely non-sexual, I should add.

(Oh and there's always heat or a fire - haven't frozen my tootsies yet!)
Just as long as you haven't had anything go up in flames either :bigredblu :lol:

[Ben Gruagach]

Just as long as you haven't had anything go up in flames either :bigredblu :lol:

A friend of mine jokes that one of the dangers of working skyclad is "burning your end at both candles."

She tries to be very punny.

[DebLipp]

Skyclad is a great equalizer. Clothing, even fancy robes, denote social status. Clothing binds the body. Clothing allows us to hide ourselves. Macha says she would find it awkward. We all think it is awkward because we are all used to having some distance from this sort of awkwardness in our normal social discourse. Skyclad both literally and figuratively strips that away, leaving us raw and real and honest with each other. It is not a coincidence that "naked" is used metaphorically to mean emotionally and psychically open.

As to the cold issue, we turn up the heat. That seems to work rather well. ;)

[raven grimassi]

Newbie question, How did nudity come to be an intricate part of Wicca/Paganism? Why is it that we go skyclad? Other than for rebirth during first initiation I am at a loss to find info supporting why we need to be without clothing during ritual or otherwise. Help? :geez:

Love and Light,
paije

Modern Wicca (at least in Gardner's time) seems to have embraced the idea of ritual nudity from older forms of Witchcraft (Aegean/Mediterranean in particular).

The ancient writer Sophocles (in his work titled Rhizotomoi) depicts the Witch Medea as being naked while using a bronze sickle to harvest herbs. Historian Ruth Martin (in Witchcraft and the Inquisition in Venice 1550-1650) notes that it was a common practice for Witches to be "naked with their hair loose around their shoulders" while reciting invocations. It is also interesting to note that woodcuts of the 17th century in many regions of Europe depict Witches in settings of ritual nudity.

Folklorist Charles Leland wrote on the theme of ritual nudity in his book on the "gospel" of Aradia. Here Leland makes two references to ritual nudity:

1. "And thus shall it be done: all shall sit down to the supper all naked, men and women, and the feast over, they shall dance, sing, and make music..."

2. "And so ye shall be free in everything; and as sign that ye be truly free, ye shall be naked in your rites, both men and women also.."

This last passage should be familiar as it also appears later in Doreen Valiente's "Charge of the Goddess"

But the idea of ritual nudity is not unique to Witchcraft. It also appears in the ancient cult of Faunus, and among the Roman sect of the Luperci.

In the Old Craft, nudity is intended as an expression of liberation. This liberation is meant to encompass not only the rejection of Judeo-Christian notions of shame, but also liberation from personal inhibitions and self-judgment. The saying is "to be free in mind, body, and spirit" and as a sign of this freedom the participants celebrate in the nude.

In a recent rendering of the Aradia material, Mario Pazzaglini tried to make a case for a different meaning of the Italian word "nudi" (he argues that instead of naked it can also mean vulnerable). However, since the pre-Leland literary and historical material addresses ritual nudity among Italian Witches, the benefit of the doubt would more reasonably go to the concept of actual nudity as opposed to just an attitude of vulnerability.

I hope this was helpful.

Best regards - Raven

[Pan]

Eh. I tried the skyclad thing and I didn't much care for it. If others want to, that's fine. :smile: It just didn't float my proverbial boat.

As for it dampening energies, wouldn't that (like someone else said) mean that walls would veritably block the energies? Walls are much thicker than clothes (or should be!) and if clothes dampen, I guess walls dam them?

I dunno. I could see it making you closer to nature, just not the whole... dampening energy thing.

[Kern]

I think it should be a personal desicion,I for one would never go skyclad in the winter.And I dont think people did in ancient Northern Europe either.They may have in the mediterranian areas though.
I agree if clothes can block energy then so can walls.If walls can then inside rituals would be of no use.And I dont agree with that.

[DebLipp]

Eh. I tried the skyclad thing and I didn't much care for it. If others want to, that's fine. :smile: It just didn't float my proverbial boat.

As for it dampening energies, wouldn't that (like someone else said) mean that walls would veritably block the energies? Walls are much thicker than clothes (or should be!) and if clothes dampen, I guess walls dam them?

I dunno. I could see it making you closer to nature, just not the whole... dampening energy thing.
I'm not much concerned whether you like skyclad or not. As they say in CAW, if you don't like it, you can't have any.

But I do think the energy dampening thing should be addressed.

Clothes don't dampen energy by creating a physical barrier, they do it by binding. That's why, if you do work clothed, robes are recommended. Your body should be unfettered, your circulation should be unimpeded, and your movements should be free. Belts, waistbands, brassieres, corsets, cuffs, etc. restrict your physical energy.

[Ben Trismegistus]

As for it dampening energies, wouldn't that (like someone else said) mean that walls would veritably block the energies? Walls are much thicker than clothes (or should be!) and if clothes dampen, I guess walls dam them?
Well, it's not about getting energy from outside, it's about keeping the energy that's there. If you're inside, and you've cast a circle, the energy stays inside the circle anyway, so the walls are not an issue.

The skyclad thing helps the energy flow within the circle.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Clothes don't dampen energy by creating a physical barrier, they do it by binding. That's why, if you do work clothed, robes are recommended. Your body should be unfettered, your circulation should be unimpeded, and your movements should be free. Belts, waistbands, brassieres, corsets, cuffs, etc. restrict your physical energy.
Aha. Yeah, what she said.

[DraconisArcanus]

Modern Wicca (at least in Gardner's time) seems to have embraced the idea of ritual nudity from older forms of Witchcraft (Aegean/Mediterranean in particular).

The ancient writer Sophocles (in his work titled Rhizotomoi) depicts the Witch Medea as being naked while using a bronze sickle to harvest herbs. Historian Ruth Martin (in Witchcraft and the Inquisition in Venice 1550-1650) notes that it was a common practice for Witches to be "naked with their hair loose around their shoulders" while reciting invocations. It is also interesting to note that woodcuts of the 17th century in many regions of Europe depict Witches in settings of ritual nudity.

Folklorist Charles Leland wrote on the theme of ritual nudity in his book on the "gospel" of Aradia. Here Leland makes two references to ritual nudity:

1. "And thus shall it be done: all shall sit down to the supper all naked, men and women, and the feast over, they shall dance, sing, and make music..."

2. "And so ye shall be free in everything; and as sign that ye be truly free, ye shall be naked in your rites, both men and women also.."

This last passage should be familiar as it also appears later in Doreen Valiente's "Charge of the Goddess"

But the idea of ritual nudity is not unique to Witchcraft. It also appears in the ancient cult of Faunus, and among the Roman sect of the Luperci.

In the Old Craft, nudity is intended as an expression of liberation. This liberation is meant to encompass not only the rejection of Judeo-Christian notions of shame, but also liberation from personal inhibitions and self-judgment. The saying is "to be free in mind, body, and spirit" and as a sign of this freedom the participants celebrate in the nude.

In a recent rendering of the Aradia material, Mario Pazzaglini tried to make a case for a different meaning of the Italian word "nudi" (he argues that instead of naked it can also mean vulnerable). However, since the pre-Leland literary and historical material addresses ritual nudity among Italian Witches, the benefit of the doubt would more reasonably go to the concept of actual nudity as opposed to just an attitude of vulnerability.

I hope this was helpful.

Best regards - Raven


Most informative many thanks Raven for always sharing your insight and knowledge.

Peace!

[Gede]

MM~
Belts, waistbands, brassieres, corsets, cuffs, etc. restrict your physical energy.

I do however tend to agree with the type of clothing one wears during Ritual. For instance I always wear flowing and non-restrictive clothing and remove my watch and bracelets. It helps me to focus and retains the flow, so I can sympathise with this ideology.

Namaste, Gede...

[omar]

It must be similar to chi gung, they say to wear loose fitting silk or cotton clouthes and no jewlry.other wise it resticts energy flow. Or I guess nothing at all is fine too.

[Kaylara]

All that's been said already By Raven, Ben, and Debb, and I want to add that whole "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust" thing into the mix.

Generally speaking, you have to really trust someone before you'll wander around naked with them. Trust them to not point and laugh, trust them to not try to hump you in the corner, trust in the personal bond between the two of you. If there is mistrust, or unrest within a coven that affects confidence in a person, it can be a terrible experience for all involved. If that common trust and bond is there, there should be no problems with being naked around them.

Which of course also effects the energy generated when working with said group as well. ;)

[Ben Trismegistus]

Generally speaking, you have to really trust someone before you'll wander around naked with them. Trust them to not point and laugh, trust them to not try to hump you in the corner, trust in the personal bond between the two of you. If there is mistrust, or unrest within a coven that affects confidence in a person, it can be a terrible experience for all involved. If that common trust and bond is there, there should be no problems with being naked around them.
A side point on this is that you should always be wary of any coven which mandates skyclad work from the very beginning. You can't possibly be comfortable working skyclad with people you've only just met, and it's a bad sign if a priest or priestess doesn't realize that. In my experience, it's those covens that are organized more for a chance to see boobies than to see God.

[DebLipp]

A side point on this is that you should always be wary of any coven which mandates skyclad work from the very beginning. You can't possibly be comfortable working skyclad with people you've only just met, and it's a bad sign if a priest or priestess doesn't realize that. In my experience, it's those covens that are organized more for a chance to see boobies than to see God.
People tend to mix up terms, so let's be clear. A coven is an "Inner Court." In traditional Wicca, no one just shows up at a coven, a coven ISN'T where you meet people for the first time. There would be an "Outer Court," a "Pagan Way," a grove, a training group, or classes of some kind before entering a coven.

Under those circumstances, a coven certainly COULD require skyclad from the very beginning.

[Aidron]

People tend to mix up terms, so let's be clear. A coven is an "Inner Court." In traditional Wicca, no one just shows up at a coven, a coven ISN'T where you meet people for the first time. There would be an "Outer Court," a "Pagan Way," a grove, a training group, or classes of some kind before entering a coven.

Under those circumstances, a coven certainly COULD require skyclad from the very beginning.


While I agree that they very well could do that, I would find it personally distasteful and a bit rude to require something myself-to insist one practice skyclad from the start without any working experience as a coven with that individual. That of course, is just me, however.

[Theres]

People tend to mix up terms, so let's be clear. A coven is an "Inner Court." In traditional Wicca, no one just shows up at a coven, a coven ISN'T where you meet people for the first time. There would be an "Outer Court," a "Pagan Way," a grove, a training group, or classes of some kind before entering a coven.

Under those circumstances, a coven certainly COULD require skyclad from the very beginning.
thank you... i just can't tell you how annoyed i get when i see people 'shopping' for covens, or covens 'advertising' for members.

a true coven is a tightly bonded group of like-minded people who work in a MOST intimate way. how can true group magick be anything else? in this way it is more akin to a marriage than a 'witches club', which i think many people see it as.
a true coven cannot be constructed, it has to evolve.

imo.

[Ben Gruagach]

thank you... i just can't tell you how annoyed i get when i see people 'shopping' for covens, or covens 'advertising' for members.

a true coven is a tightly bonded group of like-minded people who work in a MOST intimate way. how can true group magick be anything else? in this way it is more akin to a marriage than a 'witches club', which i think many people see it as.
a true coven cannot be constructed, it has to evolve.

imo.

I agree that covens need to evolve and grow very deliberately, slowly, and with a lot of consideration for only admitting new members who will actually fit in with the existing group.

That does not mean though that a coven should never let it be known publicly that they are open to prospective new members. It also does not mean that individuals who are hoping to join a coven should just sit there and wait for one to fall on them.

The covens I've worked extensively with over the years have all had ways for newcomers to get in contact with them, and for the group to screen and select new members to admit to the inner circle. Many covens do as DebLipp suggested and have either an "outer court" or perhaps classes that they use to educate newcomers and allow the inner-court members evaluate potential candidates for admission.

I'm sure some covens do come together by chance or fate without any of the members actively seeking the group. There are many honorable covens though that go about the process of building their group in a more structured and sometimes more active way.

Things like Isaac Bonewits' "Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame (http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html)" (a checklist of warning signs) are much better ways of evaluating whether a particular group is healthy or not than an arbitrary claim that groups which consciously open up to prospective new members are inherently deceptive or unhealthy.

By the way, marriages can and do just happen to turn out healthy in some cases -- for many, though, making a good marriage is a lot of conscious work that involves a lot more than just luck in finding the right person.

[DebLipp]

While I agree that they very well could do that, I would find it personally distasteful and a bit rude to require something myself-to insist one practice skyclad from the start without any working experience as a coven with that individual. That of course, is just me, however.

You didn't read what I wrote. Before entering a coven, that person would have had working experience with the individual in an Outer Court, Pagan Way, grove, or other such. The Outer group would be robed.

[Ben Trismegistus]

People tend to mix up terms, so let's be clear. A coven is an "Inner Court." In traditional Wicca, no one just shows up at a coven, a coven ISN'T where you meet people for the first time. There would be an "Outer Court," a "Pagan Way," a grove, a training group, or classes of some kind before entering a coven.

Under those circumstances, a coven certainly COULD require skyclad from the very beginning.
Aha - I hadn't realized that the use of those terms was universal (or at least widely-used). That's the system I'm familiar with, but didn't know if it was the general practice. I've seen so many people use coven as synonymous with "pagan group" that I wasn't sure if my usage was correct.

In my personal experience, the outer court work happened over a relatively short time (3 months or so), and was with too large a group to encourage real trust. That's why, in my case, the coven (inner court) was given a year of working together before working skyclad. I would have felt more uncomfortable if we'd done it from the beginning.

[Seren_]

Aha - I hadn't realized that the use of those terms was universal (or at least widely-used). That's the system I'm familiar with, but didn't know if it was the general practice. I've seen so many people use coven as synonymous with "pagan group" that I wasn't sure if my usage was correct.

In my personal experience, the outer court work happened over a relatively short time (3 months or so), and was with too large a group to encourage real trust. That's why, in my case, the coven (inner court) was given a year of working together before working skyclad. I would have felt more uncomfortable if we'd done it from the beginning.

I've been to a few open circles where nudity was encouraged but not required, and decisions either way would be respected. We were all warned that various members, including HP and HPS, preferred to work skyclad, and that was fine by me...I wasn't comfortable goin' nekkid with a bunch of strangers and my first time I found it very weird. Especially when the police turned up to see what the noise was about...Our HP was naked, painted green, with a stuffed deer head/cape combo on his head (taken from the Robin Hood set, oddly enough...). After seeing the look on the policeman's face, dress or undress wasn't really an issue.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I've been to a few open circles where nudity was encouraged but not required, and decisions either way would be respected. We were all warned that various members, including HP and HPS, preferred to work skyclad, and that was fine by me...I wasn't comfortable goin' nekkid with a bunch of strangers and my first time I found it very weird. Especially when the police turned up to see what the noise was about...Our HP was naked, painted green, with a stuffed deer head/cape combo on his head (taken from the Robin Hood set, oddly enough...). After seeing the look on the policeman's face, dress or undress wasn't really an issue.
OK that's pretty funny. I know, having been at some pagan festivals, that there are some people who just happen to like being naked, and so they're naked as often as they can be. That's fine by me, but I think skyclad work is a little different.

[Seren_]

The deer was called Douglas, btw...

[Aidron]

You didn't read what I wrote. Before entering a coven, that person would have had working experience with the individual in an Outer Court, Pagan Way, grove, or other such. The Outer group would be robed.


No, I read it, I assure you. What I meant to convey is that even in a situation like this (which is the only way I would go, I would never enter a coven without a great deal of work and experience with the people first) I would not be willing to simply begin practicing with these people in the coven's enviroment (as a coven) nude for the first time. It's simply something I would not be comfortable with at first, regardless of any previous interactions with them before hand.

[DebLipp]

No, I read it, I assure you. What I meant to convey is that even in a situation like this (which is the only way I would go, I would never enter a coven without a great deal of work and experience with the people first) I would not be willing to simply begin practicing with these people in the coven's enviroment (as a coven) nude for the first time. It's simply something I would not be comfortable with at first, regardless of any previous interactions with them before hand.
One of the purposes of skyclad is to challenge your comfort level. Of course, not all paths are for all people, and I'm very content with that. When I train people, they know, at the appropriate time, that skyclad is required at the coven level. They can then leave if they want.

If you've been working with people in ritual and socializing with them and so on, and after a year or more you STILL can't get skyclad, then I think you're never going to get there. And there are plenty of Wiccan groups that DON'T have skyclad circles so I have no problem telling someone to move along and find one of them.

[Ben Trismegistus]

If you've been working with people in ritual and socializing with them and so on, and after a year or more you STILL can't get skyclad, then I think you're never going to get there. And there are plenty of Wiccan groups that DON'T have skyclad circles so I have no problem telling someone to move along and find one of them.
Deb, you naked slavedriver you! ;)

[charmedkisses1]

well, we were born naked, we were pressured by society to wear clothing. i think it haas something to do with going back to nature.


Actually clothing was a neccisity..... so they wouldn't die in the winter....

[Aidron]

One of the purposes of skyclad is to challenge your comfort level. Of course, not all paths are for all people, and I'm very content with that. When I train people, they know, at the appropriate time, that skyclad is required at the coven level. They can then leave if they want.

If you've been working with people in ritual and socializing with them and so on, and after a year or more you STILL can't get skyclad, then I think you're never going to get there. And there are plenty of Wiccan groups that DON'T have skyclad circles so I have no problem telling someone to move along and find one of them.


Oh it's not that I'm not comfortable. I've performed rituals and cast spells skyclad before, though admittdly I prefer to be clothed as I find it too much of a distraction-especially in the little things. Is the chair hurting my butt? Ow, I just hit my knee and without my 17 eyelet boots on, leg warmers, and pants there was no padding. Stuff like that. It's really more of a preference as opposed to a "I don't think so, not ever" thing with me. I still work nude once in awhile, but that is very rare.

As for working nude with others, again I'm not going to jump into it. After spending some time with the said hypothetical people, perhaps. Right off? No, and this includes us having worked together and been around one another before for as I said I would not join a coven without experiencing time with those people before hand.

[Aidron]

Actually clothing was a neccisity..... so they wouldn't die in the winter....


Quite true. Clothing is not all what many naturalists and Pagans believe it is-a way to enforce shame. In the beginning and for the most part throughout cultures it was about protection, whether from plants and animals or the cold. It simply evolved to enforce the idea of the human body without any adornments as being shameful, sadly.

[DebLipp]

Deb, you naked slavedriver you! ;)
I'm famous for that.

[Redshire]

I've found my skyclad rituals and working to be far more effective than when I had any semblence of clothing on.

Was actually invited to join an Alexandrian Yule celebration with a local coven, and they wanted skyclad... I denied. >_<;

[Ben Trismegistus]

Quite true. Clothing is not all what many naturalists and Pagans believe it is-a way to enforce shame. In the beginning and for the most part throughout cultures it was about protection, whether from plants and animals or the cold. It simply evolved to enforce the idea of the human body without any adornments as being shameful, sadly.
True or not, the purpose of working skyclad has nothing to do whether or not clothes are shameful.

[Ben Gruagach]

True or not, the purpose of working skyclad has nothing to do whether or not clothes are shameful.

I'm not sure I agree. I think that choosing to work skyclad can have a number of different reasons and purposes which can vary from individual to individual. For some people working skyclad is at least partly about rebelling against ideas of shame that they feel have been imposed on them.

To summarize some of those reasons (which make sense to some people, and of course might not for others):
- some believe that magickal energy is easier to raise and control when they do so skyclad.
- some work skyclad because they have taken the advice to do so in the Charge of the Goddess to heart.
- some feel that working skyclad allows them to feel more free and uninhibited, and therefore more open to the Divine.
- some feel that working skyclad puts them into a magickal frame of mind better than wearing clothes (even special ritual clothes) would do.
- some see their spiritual practice of witchcraft as a way of rebelling against the status quo and about attempting to break down barriers (psychological and/or spiritual) so working skyclad is a way of reinforcing this.
- some are nudists and just feel that worshipping skyclad fits in best with their nudist lifestyle.

I'm sure there are other reasons too. There always are.

[CuBiC]

Living up in the cold north of Scandinavia, going skyclad would be, to say the least... inconvenient... and cold... especially in winter.
As for clothes obstructing energy, what about walls, trees, other objects that are in your path? They're certainly more dense than a set of clothing...
I'd rather take the risk of dampening my energy than freezing my hoo-haa off ;/

[Kaylara]

Well, again. Personal descretion (and common sense) is obviously implied. If it's -50 C outside, you're not going to go running around naked out there. If it's cold, you do the ritual inside. ;) As far as walls etc dampening the energy, if you've cast a circle, that shouldn't be an issue. It should be contained within the circle. Within the circle itself, there shouldn't be obstacles in your way.

[CuBiC]

Well, again. Personal descretion (and common sense) is obviously implied. If it's -50 C outside, you're not going to go running around naked out there. If it's cold, you do the ritual inside. ;) As far as walls etc dampening the energy, if you've cast a circle, that shouldn't be an issue. It should be contained within the circle. Within the circle itself, there shouldn't be obstacles in your way.
Yes yes, of course, but there is rarely a time when you can run arond naked without getting cold around here. :P

[DebLipp]

Living up in the cold north of Scandinavia, going skyclad would be, to say the least... inconvenient... and cold... especially in winter.
As for clothes obstructing energy, what about walls, trees, other objects that are in your path? They're certainly more dense than a set of clothing...
I actually already addressed that here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=1383064&postcount=19

I'd rather take the risk of dampening my energy than freezing my hoo-haa off ;/
Most of us practice our Craft indoors most of the time. For outdoor work, of course, I respond to the weather.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I'm not sure I agree. I think that choosing to work skyclad can have a number of different reasons and purposes which can vary from individual to individual. For some people working skyclad is at least partly about rebelling against ideas of shame that they feel have been imposed on them.
As a personal belief, sure. But I'm speaking of a rational for working skyclad on a corporate level in a Wiccan context.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Newbie question, How did nudity come to be an intricate part of Wicca/Paganism? Why is it that we go skyclad? Other than for rebirth during first initiation I am at a loss to find info supporting why we need to be without clothing during ritual or otherwise. Help? :geez:

Love and Light,
paije


PM me if you want my opinion on the skyclad thing. that why i am just a witch, not a wiccan or pagan.

ILLAW,
Rudas Starblaze

[Athena-Nadine]

PM me if you want my opinion on the skyclad thing. that why i am just a witch, not a wiccan or pagan.

ILLAW,
Rudas Starblaze
All Pagan religions don't go skyclad.

[Aidron]

As a personal belief, sure. But I'm speaking of a rational for working skyclad on a corporate level in a Wiccan context.


Rational? That's entirely subjective.

A common reason that I hear for working nude is that people feel clothing and other adornments hamper their magic. Is that rational? To some people. To me, not so much. If something as simple as clothing hampers your skill in manipulating energy then I tend to view the person as decieving themself due to a deeper reason most often. The point is not that I am right or wrong, as some people I believe truly are hampered by clothing, but that the rationality behind the reasons are, as I said, entirely subjectie.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Rational? That's entirely subjective.
Oops! Rationale. Totally different word. :)

[Aidron]

Oops! Rationale. Totally different word. :)


Silly Ben. ;)

Still, fundamental reasons can vary from tradition to tradition even within Wicca itself, so I'm not entirely comfortable laying such a blanket statement out about working nude as you did. That's a personal preference, however.

[Rudas Starblaze]

All Pagan religions don't go skyclad.


i know

[Athena-Nadine]

i know
Then were you just trying to be obnoxious with this statement?

PM me if you want my opinion on the skyclad thing. that why i am just a witch, not a wiccan or pagan.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Then were you just trying to be obnoxious with this statement?


what are you talking about? i never said "all" pagans like you assumed i did now did i. so really it seems like you are being the obnoxious one by adding words that were never written. you really had no right to react to my opinion that way, sounds like you are just trying to start a rant. i simply said "thats why i am a witch, not a wiccan or pagan." where do you get that i said all pagans get naked all the time from that???????????

stop putting words in peoples mouths

[DebLipp]

what are you talking about? i never said "all" pagans like you assumed i did now did i. so really it seems like you are being the obnoxious one by adding words that were never written. you really had no right to react to my opinion that way, sounds like you are just trying to start a rant. i simply said "thats why i am a witch, not a wiccan or pagan." where do you get that i said all pagans get naked all the time from that???????????

stop putting words in peoples mouths

You said
(a) you are not a Wiccan or Pagan because
(b) You do not wish to go skyclad

Logically,

IF all Pagans go skyclad
THEN if you don't wish to go skyclad, you would not be Pagan.

OTOH, logically,

IF only some Pagans go skyclad
THEN you could be Pagan without going skyclad
AND you could not accurately use refraining from skyclad as a reason not to be Pagan.

SO, either you do not understand how to construct IF/THEN statements,
OR, you believe you cannot be Pagan and refrain from skyclad.

Athene-Nallia pointed out your logical error and you responded by insulting her.

You are in the wrong and owe her an apology.

[Rudas Starblaze]

You said
(a) you are not a Wiccan or Pagan because
(b) You do not wish to go skyclad

Logically,

IF all Pagans go skyclad
THEN if you don't wish to go skyclad, you would not be Pagan.

OTOH, logically,

IF only some Pagans go skyclad
THEN you could be Pagan without going skyclad
AND you could not accurately use refraining from skyclad as a reason not to be Pagan.

SO, either you do not understand how to construct IF/THEN statements,
OR, you believe you cannot be Pagan and refrain from skyclad.

Athene-Nallia pointed out your logical error and you responded by insulting her.

You are in the wrong and owe her an apology.


and i pointed out hers cause she said "not all pagans" etc. and i said "i know" and she made a big deal out of it.
im not pagan because im christian, im not wiccan because im a witch, i am a rouge witch, because i cant find people who believe the same as i do. so she owes me an appology for saying i said something i didnt say. i wasnt talking to her in my first post anyway, why did she feel the need to answere to to someone who wasnt talking ot her? seems we get alot of that around here. and my first post also said "PM me if you want my """"OPINION""""""" so now its like i dont even have a right to talk to someone in private!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LAST TIME I CHECKED,,,,, WE ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO OUR OWN OPINIONS AND I DID SAY THAT IN MY INITIAL POST.........................THAT IS WAS MY OPINION..........................DID I NOT?????????? SO LAY OFF.

[Athena-Nadine]

what are you talking about? i never said "all" pagans like you assumed i did now did i. so really it seems like you are being the obnoxious one by adding words that were never written. you really had no right to react to my opinion that way, sounds like you are just trying to start a rant. i simply said "thats why i am a witch, not a wiccan or pagan." where do you get that i said all pagans get naked all the time from that???????????

stop putting words in peoples mouths
Um, I never put words in your mouth. I asked a simple question. That's all. Since you said you know that not all Pagans perform rituals skyclad, yet you said that the very reason you aren't Pagan is because of "the skyclad thing," which is a generalization that states that all Pagans do go skyclad, I asked if you were instead just being obnoxious--as in, being a smartass or somehow trying to be funny.

I also never said that you said "all Pagans get naked all the time." Where on earth did I ever say that you did? *...looks around the thread for the quote...*

[Athena-Nadine]

and i pointed out hers cause she said "not all pagans" etc. and i said "i know" and she made a big deal out of it.And again, you are the only one here making a big deal out of anything. As I said, I asked you a simple question. That's all. Honestly, I became curious after you told me that you know that not all Pagans go skyclad, why you would infer that they do by saying that the nudity is the very reason you aren't Pagan. But I already explained that in my last post.

im not pagan because im christianNothing to do with skyclad being a reason

im not wiccan because im a witchAgain, nothing to do with skyclad being a reason

i am a rouge witch, because i cant find people who believe the same as i do.That's very nice for you. And I'm a Hellenic Reconstructionist. What religious beliefs you follow has nothing to do with this.

so she owes me an appology for saying i said something i didnt say.I'm still waiting for the quote where I stated that you said something you didn't occurred. All I did was ask a question. You are the only one here saying that things were said that were never said.

i wasnt talking to her in my first post anyway, why did she feel the need to answere to to someone who wasnt talking ot her? seems we get alot of that around here.Welcome to a PUBLIC message board where anyone has the right to respond to any post they want to respond to.

and my first post also said "PM me if you want my """"OPINION""""""" so now its like i dont even have a right to talk to someone in private!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If you were so concerned with privacy, why did you post your response publicly? If you didn't want anyone to respond to your post, you should have PMd her on your own.

LAST TIME I CHECKED,,,,, WE ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO OUR OWN OPINIONS AND I DID SAY THAT IN MY INITIAL POST.........................THAT IS WAS MY OPINION..........................DID I NOT?????????? SO LAY OFF.Oh, the drama! Who ever said you couldn't have your own opinion? Lay off? You're the only one here getting all worked up, and over nothing but a question.

Here's a tip: if you don't want people questioning you when you generalize, don't generalize. If you don't want people questioning you at all, then why post on a public board?

Anyway, I've told you my reasons for the question. Take them or leave them. It makes no difference to me. And since I am contributing to the disruption of an extremely intersting thread, I am going to leave it alone now.

[Aidron]

and i pointed out hers cause she said "not all pagans" etc. and i said "i know" and she made a big deal out of it.
im not pagan because im christian, im not wiccan because im a witch, i am a rouge witch, because i cant find people who believe the same as i do. so she owes me an appology for saying i said something i didnt say. i wasnt talking to her in my first post anyway, why did she feel the need to answere to to someone who wasnt talking ot her? seems we get alot of that around here. and my first post also said "PM me if you want my """"OPINION""""""" so now its like i dont even have a right to talk to someone in private!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LAST TIME I CHECKED,,,,, WE ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO OUR OWN OPINIONS AND I DID SAY THAT IN MY INITIAL POST.........................THAT IS WAS MY OPINION..........................DID I NOT?????????? SO LAY OFF.


Grab yourself a piece of amethyst or valium, as you need to calm down.

You may have phrased your original statement poorly, it happens-to some more than others. Athena asked a simple question wishing to you to clarify your statements. Is providing clarity something you are against? As Debb said, you claimed you do not work nude because you are not pagan, which naturally leads to the logical conclusion that you are either A.) stating all pagans do or B.) that some pagans do work nude, in which case you could not use this as a reason for prcolaiming yourself as not being one.

Frankly, all you've done is respond with snotty remarks and appear to over indulge in punctuation. This will not get you taken seriously and most likely cause people's view of you to be very low-I know mine is after reading your comments as of late within this thread.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Um, I never put words in your mouth. I asked a simple question. That's all. Since you said you know that not all Pagans perform rituals skyclad, yet you said that the very reason you aren't Pagan is because of "the skyclad thing," which is a generalization that states that all Pagans do go skyclad, I asked if you were instead just being obnoxious--as in, being a smartass or somehow trying to be funny.

I also never said that you said "all Pagans get naked all the time." Where on earth did I ever say that you did? *...looks around the thread for the quote...*


ok, im calm now. nevermind all that cause i dont like to argue with people. instead of waiting for private conversation with the one who asked the question, and since i want no further arguements, i will just go ahead and say what i would have rather kept in PMs. i did a book report on witchcraft, wicca, and pagansism back in high school. the book i used was farily old. and like the others have said about "skyclad

[Rudas Starblaze]

And again, you are the only one here making a big deal out of anything. As I said, I asked you a simple question. That's all. Honestly, I became curious after you told me that you know that not all Pagans go skyclad, why you would infer that they do by saying that the nudity is the very reason you aren't Pagan. But I already explained that in my last post.

Nothing to do with skyclad being a reason

Again, nothing to do with skyclad being a reason

That's very nice for you. And I'm a Hellenic Reconstructionist. What religious beliefs you follow has nothing to do with this.

I'm still waiting for the quote where I stated that you said something you didn't occurred. All I did was ask a question. You are the only one here saying that things were said that were never said.

Welcome to a PUBLIC message board where anyone has the right to respond to any post they want to respond to.

If you were so concerned with privacy, why did you post your response publicly? If you didn't want anyone to respond to your post, you should have PMd her on your own.

Oh, the drama! Who ever said you couldn't have your own opinion? Lay off? You're the only one here getting all worked up, and over nothing but a question.

Here's a tip: if you don't want people questioning you when you generalize, don't generalize. If you don't want people questioning you at all, then why post on a public board?

Anyway, I've told you my reasons for the question. Take them or leave them. It makes no difference to me. And since I am contributing to the disruption of an extremely intersting thread, I am going to leave it alone now.


yes but a question that shouldnt have been asked, and me too about leaving it alone.

[Paije]

Didn't expect all the responses that were posted and I thank everyone one who did so. For a summary, just to make sure I have it....Gardner restarted Wicca and in doing so (being a naturalist) decided that energy would be best raised without barriers..ie..clothes. Some are comfortable with this and some are not from what I gathered. I have done so in the privacy of my solitary circle however, I have never been skyclad in front of another (for purposes of this discussion :). Being a newbie, I will say that I liked the trust comment, having to trust in those that you are with not to laugh at you, point, stare, or want to hump you. AND like another post said, that kind of relation takes time to build. But what confused me was....even if you have been with a group of people for a long time, spent many sabbats with them, outings, parties, family functions, and so on...why would it still be a [Urequirement[/U] to be skyclad, even if you did not feel comfortable being without clothes. One post said that even if after a year you still didn't not feel comfortable being skyclad in front of these same people (the ones that you have still shared all this with) then you would be asked to move on. So you build a strong bond, at least one you think is wonderful, and then if you are not comfortable being skyclad after a year then out ya go. Couldn't you just be asked to wear a robe...and just stay away from fire..:)

I think this is an issue I will need to further evaluate before seeking out the Wiccan community. Wanted others to talk to over coffee, but I think I am very fine making coffee here in my home and talking with all of you :caffeine:

Thank you again for all the great information, will chew on this for awhile :RuNew:
Love and Light,
Paije

[Rudas Starblaze]

Newbie question, How did nudity come to be an intricate part of Wicca/Paganism? Why is it that we go skyclad? Other than for rebirth during first initiation I am at a loss to find info supporting why we need to be without clothing during ritual or otherwise. Help? :geez:

Love and Light,
paije


i do appologize to for the rant, i am truely sorry to you. it seems that there are several people who need to grow up quite a bit. i was told via PMs to make sure i state that its my opinion when i make a post and apparently even doing so, i still get blasted by people. so in saying that, i am leaving this site permanatly. i can say most people i met were pretty cool and understanding, but obviously there are some who dont understand. this wasnt the first time, but it is the last.

im not a "rouge witch" for nothing ya know

to my friends, keep in touch.

fare thee well to all
and may God, the gods, and the goddess be with you, even for those of you who didnt like me.

Rudas Starblaze

[Tsuchimaru]

it seems that there are several people who need to grow up quite a bit.

You say that after you yourself threw a temper tantrum? Perhaps you should heed your own advice?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Didn't expect all the responses that were posted and I thank everyone one who did so. For a summary, just to make sure I have it....Gardner restarted Wicca and in doing so (being a naturalist) decided that energy would be best raised without barriers..ie..clothes. <snip>

I just wanted to say that he didn't restart Wicca, he created it wholesale from a mishmash of ceremonial magical practices and bits and pieces of older pagan religions.

[DebLipp]

One post said that even if after a year you still didn't not feel comfortable being skyclad in front of these same people (the ones that you have still shared all this with) then you would be asked to move on. So you build a strong bond, at least one you think is wonderful, and then if you are not comfortable being skyclad after a year then out ya go. Couldn't you just be asked to wear a robe...and just stay away from fire..:)



That was me, and the reason is because I train a Gardnerian path, and that is how Gardnerian ritual is done. Anyone who had trained with me for a length of time would surely know that. I also expect their training, everyone's training, to challenge them. If they are comfortable with nudity then undoubtedly something else will challenge them. That is part of this path. And if that isn't what they want, they need to move on. As is obvious from the many different people posting here, there are plenty of other places to go. Why should they stay with a path they don't like when there are so many others?

[Paije]

Modern Wicca (at least in Gardner's time) seems to have embraced the idea of ritual nudity from older forms of Witchcraft (Aegean/Mediterranean in particular).

The ancient writer Sophocles (in his work titled Rhizotomoi) depicts the Witch Medea as being naked while using a bronze sickle to harvest herbs. Historian Ruth Martin (in Witchcraft and the Inquisition in Venice 1550-1650) notes that it was a common practice for Witches to be "naked with their hair loose around their shoulders" while reciting invocations. It is also interesting to note that woodcuts of the 17th century in many regions of Europe depict Witches in settings of ritual nudity.

Folklorist Charles Leland wrote on the theme of ritual nudity in his book on the "gospel" of Aradia. Here Leland makes two references to ritual nudity:

1. "And thus shall it be done: all shall sit down to the supper all naked, men and women, and the feast over, they shall dance, sing, and make music..."

2. "And so ye shall be free in everything; and as sign that ye be truly free, ye shall be naked in your rites, both men and women also.."

This last passage should be familiar as it also appears later in Doreen Valiente's "Charge of the Goddess"

But the idea of ritual nudity is not unique to Witchcraft. It also appears in the ancient cult of Faunus, and among the Roman sect of the Luperci.

In the Old Craft, nudity is intended as an expression of liberation. This liberation is meant to encompass not only the rejection of Judeo-Christian notions of shame, but also liberation from personal inhibitions and self-judgment. The saying is "to be free in mind, body, and spirit" and as a sign of this freedom the participants celebrate in the nude.

In a recent rendering of the Aradia material, Mario Pazzaglini tried to make a case for a different meaning of the Italian word "nudi" (he argues that instead of naked it can also mean vulnerable). However, since the pre-Leland literary and historical material addresses ritual nudity among Italian Witches, the benefit of the doubt would more reasonably go to the concept of actual nudity as opposed to just an attitude of vulnerability.

I hope this was helpful.

Best regards - Raven
In the Old Craft, nudity is intended as an expression of liberation. This liberation is meant to encompass not only the rejection of Judeo-Christian notions of shame

How does one do that. I am only 3 years old (to Wicca) and have only now started to meet people. Will this be something that I will come to embrace, or for some of us, is this something that will have to be worked on?

[Ben Gruagach]

In the Old Craft, nudity is intended as an expression of liberation. This liberation is meant to encompass not only the rejection of Judeo-Christian notions of shame

How does one do that. I am only 3 years old (to Wicca) and have only now started to meet people. Will this be something that I will come to embrace, or for some of us, is this something that will have to be worked on?

As DebLipp and others have pointed out in posts in this thread, not all Wiccan groups practice skyclad. And many of those groups that do practice skyclad make it very clear to anyone who is joining their particular group that this is the case, and often give the potential new member lots of time to get used to the people in the group before they start actually taking clothes off for a ritual.

Working skyclad is just one practice that is part of Wicca for some people but ultimately is a decision that each of us make for ourselves. If you are not comfortable with working skyclad there are many Wiccan groups that work clothed that you could become involved with. If you feel comfortable with working skyclad or consider it to be a part of Wicca that you could do (even if you're not exactly comfortable with it at the start) then there are groups like many traditional Gardnerian covens which work this way that you could become involved with.

Wicca is diverse enough that there are many ways things are done, with many interpretations and reasonings behind why and how things are practiced.

[Jenett]

** How does one do that. I am only 3 years old (to Wicca) and have only now started to meet people. Will this be something that I will come to embrace, or for some of us, is this something that will have to be worked on? **

As DepLipp said, people have different challenges - and really, that's true of most religions. Most people find some parts of it easier than others, and it's not always the same parts.

I'd suggest this, though: some of my most powerful magical and ritual experiences have come from pushing at the things that feel most challenging, and working with stuff that was hard for me. Some of my other most meaningful experiences have come from being willing (even if nervous about it) to be *incredibly* vulnerable to the people around me.

Once I was willing to do the latter, the skyclad bit wasn't nearly so big a deal, y'know? (we don't generally work skyclad, but I've been to a number of rituals with other people where going skyclad was optional.)

Actually, one of my big concerns was that I thought (based on some conversations about it) that my husband wasn't crazy about it, so I avoided it more for that reason than anything else. A conversation a month or two ago made me realise that either I misinterpreted, or he's gotten more comfortable with the idea.

[Amadore]

When we go out in public, we're forced to wear clothing and we're forced to be conservative. When you go skyclad, it's like a way of freedom, I guess? Also when you're skyclad, there's nothing that's blocking/in between you and the goddess. I find it's kind of silly though how some people go skyclad, but they stay inside their house. it defeats the purpose! I'm sure the goddess would prefer if you wear a thin sweater rather than having to wear a house!!

[Cataline]

Who says you have to be nekked?

Do what feels most appropriate to you. My coven does not do skyclad rituals and I don't think we've suffered any diminishing quality in our rituals. At home though, I do tend to do my best solitaire work while naked or in an unrestrictive ritual robe.

[DebLipp]

I find it's kind of silly though how some people go skyclad, but they stay inside their house. it defeats the purpose! I'm sure the goddess would prefer if you wear a thin sweater rather than having to wear a house!!

There are lots of reasons to work indoors, including privacy, discretion, and weather. The Gods are in my house as well as outdoors, in the city as well as in the country.

[Aidron]

When we go out in public, we're forced to wear clothing and we're forced to be conservative. When you go skyclad, it's like a way of freedom, I guess? Also when you're skyclad, there's nothing that's blocking/in between you and the goddess. I find it's kind of silly though how some people go skyclad, but they stay inside their house. it defeats the purpose! I'm sure the goddess would prefer if you wear a thin sweater rather than having to wear a house!!


I don't know how it is for you, but clothing in no way, shape, or form blocks my connection to divinity, nor does it hamper my magic. My magic comes from within, and clothing has no power over that.

As for working nude inside, so what? Personally, you would be lucky to get me to work outside, nude or not. My sacred space is inside, and my gods prefer me to work where I am most comfortable. Sheesh.

[Ben Trismegistus]

Luckily, in religion, we are blessed with the facility of FREE WILL. Additionally, we are blessed with an abundance of choices. As Pagans or Wiccans, we have the ability to choose a tradition which requires skyclad work, a tradition in which skyclad work is optional, or a tradition in which skyclad work is never done. There are plenty of options out there for everyone. Since paganism (in general) is about achieving a higher state of spiritual consciousness, each person reacts differently to different things. For me (and others), working skyclad clicks me over into another headspace, one which makes ritual more effective for me. For some other people, working skyclad simply makes them feel uncomfortable and self-conscious, so they choose not to do it. Isn't it wonderful to live in a world where we're not all forced to do the same thing?

As to traditions which "require" skyclad work, that is (or should be) made entirely clear well before you'll ever be asked to drop trou. Therefore, you won't be put in a position of having to refuse in the middle of a ritual. You can make the choice for yourself whether that's something you want to attempt or not, and then you can choose your tradition accordingly.

Raven, going back to our conversation on Friday - you're right that each tradition has a different rationalE for going skyclad. I'm just referring to my understanding of the Gardnerian Wiccan rationale. I may not have made that clear at first.

And Rudas, what the heck is a "rouge witch" - do you apply make-up before ritual? ;)

[Alexandra Asinine]

1.) Try feeling the difference for yourself. It can affect energy flow, and your ritual mindset.

2.) In a group, not only is there an energetic difference, but it is a manifestation of perfect love and perfect trust. There has to be a level of intimacy that allows a member to feel safe among a bunch of people naked before the Gods.

[Paije]

1.) Try feeling the difference for yourself. It can affect energy flow, and your ritual mindset.

I have been skyclad in my home while raising energy, but never in a group.

2.) In a group, not only is there an energetic difference, but it is a manifestation of perfect love and perfect trust. There has to be a level of intimacy that allows a member to feel safe among a bunch of people naked before the Gods.

The part that bothers me with that statemet is the word "has". There HAS to be? so again I am posed with the "do it or you will not be part of". Will just remain solitary, unless there is a coven or group that does not make it a hard and fast rule that if I trust you I have to remove my clothes. If it is optional, then I would feel more comfortable, even if I had a robe and was naked underneath. :eyez:

Love and Light,
Paije

[Alexandra Asinine]

You misunderstand what I meant, although there ARE some groups that require nudity. I wrote, "There has to be a level of intimacy that allows a member to feel safe among a bunch of people naked." What I meant is that, in order for a person to agree to be nude in front of people, they "have to" trust those people. I meant nudity requiring trust, not trust requiring nudity. I hope I'm clearer this time.

[Ben Trismegistus]

[/COLOR]The part that bothers me with that statemet is the word "has". There HAS to be? so again I am posed with the "do it or you will not be part of". Will just remain solitary, unless there is a coven or group that does not make it a hard and fast rule that if I trust you I have to remove my clothes. If it is optional, then I would feel more comfortable, even if I had a robe and was naked underneath. :eyez:
The nudity is not required, but the intimacy is. I can speak from personal experience that if you're in a group where you don't trust absolutely every member of the group implicitly, the magic simply will not work effectively.

And, as has been mentioned by me and others on several occasions in this thread, there are plenty of covens that do not require skyclad work. But one of the other benefits of working skyclad is that it is an outward sign of that implicit trust between covenmates.

[evie_mun]

I am a solitary, and I was only ever skyclad when I did my self-initiation ceremony. I dunno why, I've just always been uncomfortable being naked for very long, even when I'm sleeping! I'm also anemic, so it takes only a slight breeze to make me freezing cold!

I think if people feel that it helps their workings, by all means! I personally don't feel much different when I do something skyclad as opposed to wearing clothes. I think that the best ritual or working you will ever have is when you are in a situation where you are most comfortable. This is why I work ceremonies in my bedroom, locked up high on the third floor away from everyone else, in clothes. That's where I'm most comfortable!

[Alvin24]

I can see the point in working some rituals sky-clad, the feeling of being in just your nude flesh while working magic seems incredibly liberating, and the thought of seeing beautiful naked women and men appeals to me, but then these points stop me from participating: 1) hardly anyone ever looks like they stepped out of an Abercrombie & Fitch catalog,
2) seeing certain parts of a woman's anatomy flop around is a major turn-off,
3) seeing certain parts of a man's anatomy flap up and down is also a major turn-off,
4) I could never look a naked person in the eye or take what they say seriously, especially while I myself am naked with them.
5) I have no problem taking off my shirt in front of others (as my avatar pic shows), but that's about it.

[KissMeImIrish!]

I also felt kind of uncomfortable being nude, evenin the comfort of my home. however, recently the cloak I usually wear has been too hot and I get distracted. So one ritual I just flung it off and wow! I do most of my rituals nude now, it gives me much more freedom, I don't worry about my long sleeves catching on fire, and I'm not too hot anymore. I'm sure some people have spiritual reasons to go skyclad, but I do simply because it's practical.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I think that the best ritual or working you will ever have is when you are in a situation where you are most comfortable. This is why I work ceremonies in my bedroom, locked up high on the third floor away from everyone else, in clothes. That's where I'm most comfortable!

Comfort can be good, I agree, but also some degree of tension can heighten a magical experience. Obviously it doesn't work well to be completely awkward, but some amount of nervousness or anxiety can work to make the magic more powerful, at least IME.


I can see the point in working some rituals sky-clad, the feeling of being in just your nude flesh while working magic seems incredibly liberating, and the thought of seeing beautiful naked women and men appeals to me, but then these points stop me from participating: 1) hardly anyone ever looks like they stepped out of an Abercrombie & Fitch catalog,
2) seeing certain parts of a woman's anatomy flop around is a major turn-off,
3) seeing certain parts of a man's anatomy flap up and down is also a major turn-off,
4) I could never look a naked person in the eye or take what they say seriously, especially while I myself am naked with them.
5) I have no problem taking off my shirt in front of others (as my avatar pic shows), but that's about it.
Well, I don't really see how being unattracted to someone negatively impacts your magic, unless perhaps it's sex magic. ^_^ You're not generally supposed to be turned on by your covenmates; you can be, but that's not the specific aim of a skyclad working. It's not about being surrounded by beautiful naked nymphs, you know. ^_^ I can understand discomfort. I'm generally uncomfortable with exposing myself to other people, too. (Though I would be perfectly willing to do so in a ritual setting, I'd just be nervous and uncomfortable for the first five minutes.) And of course it may be awkward being around naked people. But let those things stop you rather than simply because they're not all beautiful in your eyes. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Paije]

I apologize to everyone for starting this thread. It seems that my question has been nothing more than a fire starter. I now know that trying to discuss nudity in wicca is like trying to discuss politics or broad spectrum religion, it just doesn't work. I understand some are passionate about it, but this thread has started fights and ultimatley ended up in some reponses,( because talking on the internet you can't really understand how the person was meaning it) being very hurtful or judmental. It is obvious that it is a person prefrence issue and that is where I will leave it.
I thank everyone for their opinions as they are as valuable as each of you personally. Everyone put their beliefs on this post even when they knew it would be judged and that was very brave.

Thank you all again,
Love and Light,
Paije

[Ben Gruagach]

I apologize to everyone for starting this thread. It seems that my question has been nothing more than a fire starter. I now know that trying to discuss nudity in wicca is like trying to discuss politics or broad spectrum religion, it just doesn't work. I understand some are passionate about it, but this thread has started fights and ultimatley ended up in some reponses,( because talking on the internet you can't really understand how the person was meaning it) being very hurtful or judmental. It is obvious that it is a person prefrence issue and that is where I will leave it.
I thank everyone for their opinions as they are as valuable as each of you personally. Everyone put their beliefs on this post even when they knew it would be judged and that was very brave.

Thank you all again,
Love and Light,
Paije

I'm surprised you feel like it's turned into a fight of some sort. All the responses seemed to me to be regular old discussion. Certainly, there are differences of opinions but I don't think anyone flew off the handle or took anything personally.

If you want to see stuff getting REALLY heated you might want to have a look at some of the threads in the Politics section. This thread is nothing compared to some in there.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I apologize to everyone for starting this thread. It seems that my question has been nothing more than a fire starter. I now know that trying to discuss nudity in wicca is like trying to discuss politics or broad spectrum religion, it just doesn't work. I understand some are passionate about it, but this thread has started fights and ultimatley ended up in some reponses,( because talking on the internet you can't really understand how the person was meaning it) being very hurtful or judmental. It is obvious that it is a person prefrence issue and that is where I will leave it.
I thank everyone for their opinions as they are as valuable as each of you personally. Everyone put their beliefs on this post even when they knew it would be judged and that was very brave.
Are you kidding? I thought it was a fascinating discussion - thanks for starting it!

One should never be afraid of disagreement.

[Little Willow]

Most definitely. You should never apologise for starting a really good discussion.

As for skyclad. Well I'm solitary so it doesn't matter to me whether I go skyclad or not. Unfortunately the powers that be may have other ideas about that. This little story is totally true ... and may make you smile.

I once decided ... OK, time to do the thing naked. There I am in my circle, candles were burning so intimately, the incense was adding to it in a most wonderful way. In the background there's the beat of African drums (on the CD player of course). Anyway. There's no breeze (I'm inside and the windows are shut). I'm stood there in my glorious nakedness doing my best to invite the goddess and the god. When ... one of the candles sputter with little sparks and goes out. Damn ... thinks I and goes and relights it. Goes back to middle and tries to relax. The candle sputters again and goes out again. Followed shortly by another, then another ... until I'm in pitch black. Then I get the impression of a giggle and the most definite feeling that someone was saying .... "some people can do skyclad luv, and some can't. You, my darling, most definitely can't." And I burst into the biggest fit of giggles in my entire life. I've never gone skyclad ever again.

But ... that's just how I'm supposed to practice. Well and truely covered up. Others, well that's a different matter. I guess what I was being shown was, that it doesn't matter one little bit how you practice, so long as you do. That whether you're naked or clothed top to bottom in snakeskin (or other), that what you're doing is totally being witness, and although it may not seem it immediately, your prayers will be answered.

*gets the fluffy slippers to go with the ears and cotton tail*. Sorry guys but that's just how it felt at the time. No ... honestly .... it really did.

[Ben Gruagach]

One other thing that I was thinking about in this whole skyclad v robed discussion is that a person might have the decision made for them by the deity they have dedicated themselves to worship. Little Willow's story was a perfect example of this.

If we look at how some deities have been worshipped in the past, we'll see some that apparently insist on their followers showing respect by covering up their bodies before coming into the temple/ synagogue/ church/ shrine. In some religions that means putting a hat or other head covering on. In some more extreme cases it seems the faithful are expected to cover themselves head to foot in cloth or veils.

Other religions, however, do the opposite. People are expected to remove headwear when coming into the Holy Presence, or must take off footwear, or other articles of clothing. Then there are some, like various holy people in India, who worship naked as a sign of their devotion. (I think I read somewhere that the Jains in particular worship naked, and they are the ones who coined the word "skyclad" which we Wiccans have adopted via Gerald Gardner.)

So even within Wiccan practice alone, I could see the issue of working skyclad or robed as being something that might also be decided based on what specific deities an individual or group are worshipping.

[Dawa Lhamo]

. (I think I read somewhere that the Jains in particular worship naked, and they are the ones who coined the word "skyclad" which we Wiccans have adopted via Gerald Gardner.)Right. Actually, it's a particular sect of Jain monks. You have two, the Svetambara monks who wear white robes, and the Digambara, who wear no clothes, ever. ^_^ Dig=sky, ambara=clad (Svet=white, I think.) I think, but don't quote me, that lay Jains can wear whatever they want (as long as no animal products!). I'm fairly certain that for the Jains, skyclad represents freedom from passions and the trappings of impassioned existence. They don't worship a god, though, but follow in the path of their savior-prophet. So in this case, the Digambaras felt that Mahavira had set the trend for going skyclad as a way of expressing dedication, rather than a god deciding that they should. But it amounts to the same *kind* of reasoning. ^_^

According to the story, though, Gardner was in India and was very impressed upon seeing the Digambara monks, and this influenced him to include it in his new religion. I don't have a textual reference for this, but it's what I've heard.

And I didn't think the conversation was escalating to the point where an apology was needed. I think it's good to get people thinking and debating. ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Hairball]

Actually, I was reading that George Pickensgill's (sic) covens practiced rituals skyclad. So I guess maybe Gardener might have been a naturist, or maybe it was just using the nudist colony as a cover for the coven's skyclad activities (wicca was still illegal then), but anyhow he didn't start the skyclad practice. He might have named it, but he didn't start it. Since Old George was born in 1804, probably it was started long before Gardener was born even if Old George was the one who started it. It could be that George was following a tradition. Its impossible to trace it past him'
Oh, I do skyclad Don't have a problem with it.

[DebLipp]

It's not all that smart to rely on Pickingill too heavily. Certainly GBG didn't invent skyclad as a Pagan practice, but almost as certainly, it was he who introduced it into British/Anglo folk magical practice.

[PoisonIvy]

I think that there is a time and place for being skyclad in rituals,just not at my house. We'd scare all the neighbors! :crylaugh:

[Raven Heart]

From personal experience, I can say that working skyclad (especially in a group) lends to the "otherworldliness" of the ritual. It's just another way to set off ritual work from your normal life. It's beneficial to some, not to others. I happen to like it - I find that my skyclad rituals are substantially more powerful. My coven, on average, works skyclad maybe 2-3 times a year.[/QUOTE]
I try to do must of my ritual skyclad. It sets it apart from the rest of your life and just allows me to feel more naturel. I see it as the way I was born, it is who I am. Clothing during ritual, even robes our like masks and signs of the materiel world. Even my robe that my old high priestess made for me after intuition just dose not feel as right to me during ritual as being sky clad does. Some our bothered by it, some just do not like it. Each to his own. It would be hard doing a ritual skyclad if you where nervous so if it makes you feel that way than do no try it.
Deep Peace

[DarkWaltz]

Newbie question, How did nudity come to be an intricate part of Wicca/Paganism? Why is it that we go skyclad? Other than for rebirth during first initiation I am at a loss to find info supporting why we need to be without clothing during ritual or otherwise. Help? :geez:

Love and Light,
paijeDon't practice skyclad, I tend to hold on to Scott Cunninghams view that you will only be comfortable with your rituals if you feel comfortable to begin with therefore if you are cold or feeling a little sheepish because u dont like going nude then wear your clothing,
I doubt a pair of pants and a jumper are going to make a big difference in how the energies flow as long as the mind and spirit are properly prepared

[Queenorivers]

it all depends where the energy comes from, for me it mainly comes from hands and head so i'm ok with clothes, people also tend to wear clothes the colour of the spell they are doing, it's all what works for you, good luck!

[Ben Trismegistus]

Luckily, since it's a non-dogmatic religion, we all have the choice to do whatever works best for us. :)

[Hairball]

It's not all that smart to rely on Pickingill too heavily. Certainly GBG didn't invent skyclad as a Pagan practice, but almost as certainly, it was he who introduced it into British/Anglo folk magical practice.


Hmm After reading your post, I decided to do a more indepth study on Old George. I was relying on the Liddell materials and found that they are indeed controversial. I will do a rethink on this one. :o