Guiding the New Pagans

[SacredWithin]

Everyday I try and learn new things. And there have been many things about religion that has been pissing me off lately that I have been learning about. I have little problem with religion, but it's mostly... I guess you can say, the retention of religious history I have a problem with. History that can help people instead of give them a crutch where there is none needed. I think that has done nothing but hold people back. I'm not here to rant, but rather to help (although I guess you can say it has turned into some sort of rant). I only mentioned the above because what has been happening recently is people have been doing nothing but bashing the new Pagans. So I made this thread to try to get away from that and rather create an atmosphere of understanding.

Instead of doing what you can to hurt, why not try helping? So the purpose of this thread is to offer as much advice as you can to the new and preferably teen Pagans. I think if you have knowledge that you know will help someone, then I think this would be a great chance to get something started and try to pass it along instead of scoffing it off saying the world is hopeless. The world is as hopeless as you make it because you are apart of this world and whether you want to acknowledge it or not, you make some sort of contribution to the functioning of this world. You serve a purpose.

Sorry if this has come off as harsh. I cannot offer too much advice in the field of Paganism b/c I myself am studying it as apart of my religious studies. I'm a Spiritualist. But it pisses me off that people want Paganism to emerge as a loving community with reverence to life, but what good does retaining information about your faith do if you wish to educate people on it? It is good that at least people are interested in your religion, but do not turn a blind eye or cold shoulder once someone tries to be apart of your community and doesn't know what they're doing! Look at what happend to many of the major faiths! I hate to seem like I'm picking on Christianity, but how many Christians know the symbolisms of their own faith? If Pagans continue to go on "You can't be like me, so don't even try, fluffy bunny" rage, then what do you think will happen to these faiths?

[Ben Trismegistus]

You've mentioned this in a number of threads recently, and to be honest, I just don't see it. I think that we go out of our way to be helpful. Sometimes that help involves tough love, or breaking someone's misconceptions, but I've seen nothing that I would classify as bashing. And what exactly do you mean about the retention of religious history being a bad thing? I don't follow you.

[Avalon]

I just had my head handed to me on a list I belong to for making generalizations. I could've been angry and stopped posting, but I stuck with it and realized that I really *was* in the wrong. Now I'm involved in a fascinating discussion I would've missed out on. Like Ben said, sometimes tough love works...

[SacredWithin]

And what exactly do you mean about the retention of religious history being a bad thing? I don't follow you.

I.E. Missing books and scriptures, texts, etc. I used Christianity as my example.

I guess you can say tough love works too. But what I feel is that some people may only see it as a rejection. I guess this would happen if the person was only looking for the comfort of the people. Because in many times, people leave other religions because it did not provide the comfort and their questions were not being answered. That is how I saw it.

[Ivy Artemisia]

Hm. There is a big difference between bashing new Pagans and breaking them of their misconceptions. I'm not saying that bashing never happens, because it does. But I agree with Ben... sometimes its about tough love. I come across a lot of new Pagans (primarily Wiccans, as that is my path), who don't understand the concepts of polarity, duelism, or even that there exists a shadow side, or that fire usually won't flow from your fingertips. I don't bash, I educate... and if that includes guiding someone away from their misconceptions, or inaccurate perceptions, then I will. Its part of my responsibilty as a teacher.

[SacredWithin]

Perhaps my view of guidance is different from you guys and our methods are different. I try a more understanding approach and showing the way, but not telling. And although hard, I try through my own actions. I guess I see it as, if a child gets a math problem wrong, I'm not going to call it stupid. I would try to guide it towards where it needs to be. That is how I see it.

[Ben Trismegistus]

I.E. Missing books and scriptures, texts, etc. I used Christianity as my example.

Sorry, I still don't get it. Maybe it's me.

I guess you can say tough love works too. But what I feel is that some people may only see it as a rejection. I guess this would happen if the person was only looking for the comfort of the people. Because in many times, people leave other religions because it did not provide the comfort and their questions were not being answered. That is how I saw it.
Well, I only use tough love as a last resort, if the questioner is being really stubborn about being open to new ideas. We're only trying to help, but it's only reasonable to expect that we get frustrated when our help is suddenly not welcome.

Can you point out some examples of where people's questions aren't getting answered?

[Ben Trismegistus]

Perhaps my view of guidance is different from you guys and our methods are different. I try a more understanding approach and showing the way, but not telling. And although hard, I try through my own actions. I guess I see it as, if a child gets a math problem wrong, I'm not going to call it stupid. I would try to guide it towards where it needs to be. That is how I see it.
Can you give us examples of threads where you disagreed with our methods?

[SacredWithin]

[color=indigo]Sorry, I still don't get it. Maybe it's me.

You have to study into the history of religions more to see that religious organizations would rather retain information than let people see the truth. It happens all the time and has been happening for centuries. If you need to, move beyond the studies of Paganism and move more towards the more established and well-known religions. You might want to check into Constantine's decision to join a nation together using religion as a political move. And when you find that out, check out how many churches are willing to admit what happend.

Well, I only use tough love as a last resort, if the questioner is being really stubborn about being open to new ideas. We're only trying to help, but it's only reasonable to expect that we get frustrated when our help is suddenly not welcome.

I see it now. I assumed it was a first resort. That's my stupidity.http://mysticwicks.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Can you point out some examples of where people's questions aren't getting answered?

The people may not be asking directly, but when interest is showed, then I would suggest an offer of hand. Yes, I've dealt with what people call, "fluffy bunnies". And I tell them of my own experience. I let them know of my own path as I am always seeking and learning. And at times, when they don't want to hear it, they'll simply ignore you. I never gave the cold shoulder or any of the sort.

[SacredWithin]

Can you give us examples of threads where you disagreed with our methods?

It isn't the methods here as I have not seen the bashing on MW (surely mods would have taken care of it). But I do see it when people post of their experiences. I guess you can say I'm tired of the complaining and rather, I'd wish there were more action being done. I see it in everyday life in my town. Quarells over some practitioners on whose on the real path and not, similar to church quarells. They come and complain to me. I wanted to rant. So seeing as this is a big community, I wanted to say something about it and also take action in my personal life.

[Ben Trismegistus]

You have to study into the history of religions more to see that religious organizations would rather retain information than let people see the truth. It happens all the time and has been happening for centuries. If you need to, move beyond the studies of Paganism and move more towards the more established and well-known religions. You might want to check into Constantine's decision to join a nation together using religion as a political move. And when you find that out, check out how many churches are willing to admit what happend.

Oh! I was confused by your use of the word "retention". I thought you meant that reclaiming religious history was somehow detrimental. While some more "traditional" religions may be guilty of hoarding information, I really don't think that's the case with most pagan religions.

The people may not be asking directly, but when interest is showed, then I would suggest an offer of hand. Yes, I've dealt with what people call, "fluffy bunnies". And I tell them of my own experience. I let them know of my own path as I am always seeking and learning. And at times, when they don't want to hear it, they'll simply ignore you. I never gave the cold shoulder or any of the sort.
And like I said, I haven't seen anyone here given the cold shoulder.

[Romani Vixen]

I guess I don't see it too much either.

I always have an open hand. I never turn anyone away, even if I think that they're a fluffy. If they're a fluffy... well.. come on over!!! Let's get you developing and moving forward! :D

[Ben Trismegistus]

It isn't the methods here as I have not seen the bashing on MW (surely mods would have taken care of it). But I do see it when people post of their experiences. I guess you can say I'm tired of the complaining and rather, I'd wish there were more action being done. I see it in everyday life in my town. Quarells over some practitioners on whose on the real path and not, similar to church quarells. They come and complain to me. I wanted to rant. So seeing as this is a big community, I wanted to say something about it and also take action in my personal life.
Oh, well if you're talking about the community at large, I can't really help you. I mean, some people are helpful, some people are jerkoffs. That's the general situation. MW is special in that there IS intelligent discourse going on here, unlike a lot of pagan-centric boards.

When I've seen you mention this on other threads, I always figured you meant that people here were being unhelpful. But if you're just saying "people are mean", then yeah, you're right.

[SacredWithin]

[/color]


And like I said, I haven't seen anyone here given the cold shoulder.

I haven't seen it either. My message was a general one. A general rant although my original intention wasn't meant to be that way. Now it has come to a thread of me trying to explain myself! :lol: Oh well.

I can always try and help although my knowledge may be limited

[SacredWithin]

Okay... here we go. What do you think of this page (http://www.expage.com/page/vampirekisses1016) (click)

At first, I thought she was mislead because she said something about going by her intuition and not having to study. And then I wrote in the guestbook that...how would she know she doesn't need to study if she never checked into the books?

But then again... we have the ancients who did it without literature... but then again... what are the chances of someone today, exposed to the major faiths, get a good grasp on a religion that had to go undercover for a while without reading?

[Ben Trismegistus]

Okay... here we go. What do you think of this page (http://www.expage.com/page/vampirekisses1016) (click)

At first, I thought she was mislead because she said something about going by her intuition and not having to study. And then I wrote in the guestbook that...how would she know she doesn't need to study if she never checked into the books?

But then again... we have the ancients who did it without literature... but then again... what are the chances of someone today, exposed to the major faiths, get a good grasp on a religion that had to go undercover for a while without reading?
I think that she's a 14 year old kid with some interesting ideas who doesn't mention wanting any sort of external advice or help. She's got some ideas wrong, in my opinion, but she's not asking my opinion, so I probably wouldn't bother to give it.

As for the ancients, this girl describes herself as a Wiccan - therefore there's no ancients. And you can be sure that those people responsible for creating Wicca knew ALL the literature at hand, because it's all referenced in the Wiccan writings of the 1940s and 50s.

Personally, I believe that someone can form their own personal spiritual beliefs without the aid of books or study. However, I don't believe they can call themselves a practitioner of a specific religion (Wicca, in this case) without reading anything about the history or practices of Wicca. It would be like my calling myself a Christian with nothing more than a vague idea that Jesus was the son of god or something.

[SacredWithin]

As for the ancients, this girl describes herself as a Wiccan - therefore there's no ancients. And you can be sure that those people responsible for creating Wicca knew ALL the literature at hand, because it's all referenced in the Wiccan writings of the 1940s and 50s.

My comment on the ancients wasn't geared towards Wicca. I know Wicca is new. I'm talking about religion in general. The ancients... how did they got knowledge of the divine? Could not only the misunderstanding of the forces of nature be a factor but also intuition? She mentioned intuition and that is where I got that. It was a general statement.

[SamTheBlob]

ive read all of your post, i havent been bashed i have a few threads asking questions i feel bad because there one right after another

[wakywitch]

ive read all of your post, i havent been bashed i have a few threads asking questions i feel bad because there one right after another

In order to experience it you have to do it.
I read your posts where you said you don't remember things.
Someone had suggested to get a note book and write things down.
What you want to do, and what you remember.
Also read that you were strapped on cash, I suggested a used book store.
Another had suggested some links.
We are here to help you and all newbies, but we don't sit glued to a specific thread waiting for replies.

Another person did say you can't expect to learn if you need hand holding. It is true. We all were new at one point, but we learned.
Heck you learn something new everyday.
So be patient with yourself and with us.
Like I said before true magic comes from within YOU.
It comes from the heart!