Asian Sprituality/Religion: Anyone Interested??

[Benzaiten]

I just wanted to know how many of you all would be interested in a class in Asian Spirituality and Religion, since I'm considering teaching one if the interest is there. It would cover mostly Shintoism, since that is what I identify with mostly, but I would present the Shinto pantheon, the basics of Shinto beliefs, and some Shinto practices that maybe you could incorporate into your own set of practices. I would also cover the same aspects of Taoism, though at a slighly lesser extent (Deities, practices, etc.), and I would also cover Zen and how it can be incorporated into anyone's practices, regardless of religious/spiritual identity. That's pretty much all I can think to cover. So, anyone interested? Also, if there's anything you would like for me to include that I didn't mention, let me know that also.

Thank you!/Doumo Arigatou!/Xie Xie!
-Akiko

[xmezumiiru]

What is your background in each of the subjects you would like to teach? Shinto is a religion, Tao is a philosophy that is attributed with religion, and Zen is a state of mind.

Being a student of Mikkyo philosophy for several years under a licenced priest/teacher, I find it difficult to beleive you are well versed enough in each of those to teach them accurately unless you were raised in the traditions. Prove me wrong and I would be glad to listen to what you have to say on each.

[Storm Moon]

I think it's a good idea. Maybe you two could team up or something.

[xmezumiiru]

I won't teach religions that are philosophy based. I'll discuss, which this topic would be perfect for a discussion group. I have learned just enough to realize I know nothing.

[badkitty]

I might be interested but would want more information on it before making a decision. Topics to be covered, time obligation, etc.

[Benzaiten]

First of all, xmezumiiru, I agree, Shinto is a religion, Tao is more of a philosophy (but it is a religion, also), and Zen is, to use your words, which best describes it, "a state of mind."

Secondly, you need not be so hostile. I was never claiming to know everything about anything. No one is capable of that. I wasn't talking about a full-on "How to be a Shintoist" course, or "How to become a Zen Buddhist." I do know what Mikkyo is, and I wasn't planning on teaching Buddhism as a religion, merely *what* Zen is, about zazen, how Zen can be incorporated into anyone's life, etc. The basics.

And by the way, *yes*, I do attend zazen sessions and study groups at my local Zen Center, and I do think everyone should at least learn about it, if not try it out themselves. I've been studying about Taoism as a philosophy and a religion for three years now, which I know probably isn't enough for you, but I know more than most people, seeing as how most people know little to nothing about it. Shintoism... is not hard to grasp. It is actually less a religion and more a cultural thing these days. It is closely intertwined with Japanese culture. And yes, I have been "raised" in that, though I guess it could be said that I raised myself in that. I am lucky enough to be near a Japanese Cultural Center (and museum, but that's a small part of it), and I have been therefore luckier enough to have meet and befriended many native Japanese. Most of them are much older than I, and quite a few are completely willing to share their knowledge with me (and others who are interested). One woman who has taught me much about Japanese culture and beliefs that you can't glean from a book is a Ikebana and Tea Ceremony master (I know, they're both from Buddhism, before you go off on me some more. That's not all there is to her, that's just what she is internationally noted for.), and her husband just got back from Japan; he was recieving an award or honor of some kind (I can't remember just what it is called, and I apologize for that) from the Emperor for being an outstanding figure in teaching Japanese culture abroad.

I was trying to be brief in my description, but I guess I didn't get the message across. It would be a course meant to get people familar with these things. It would teach them enough to get their minds open to what Asian concepts can do for their spiritual being, it would get them familar with the beliefs and practices involved, and, of course, encourage them to seek further instruction with a local teacher if it's something they want to fully pursue. I disagree that you have to be born into a religion, though. If that were true, how many people *wouldn't* be on MW? It would be introductory. Like I said, the basics. You'd be suprised how many people don't know about Eastern religion, philosophy, culture, etc.

I really don't know why you felt it necessary to be so hostile. If you took me for an idiot, you could have PMed me, instead of trying to call me out in public. I have done nothing wrong, and I have made no claims to be a master in anything. I am not going to take this personally, and I'm just going to assume you are generally arrogant to everyone. I'm sorry you don't feel that I'm worthy enough to discuss these things with you, or obviously anyone else for that matter. If it's anyone's loss, it certainly isn't mine. You might in fact be a brillant, pleasant human being whose conversations and input I could enjoy immensely, and I hope that I have merely misjudged you and this is a resolvable misunderstanding.

As far as the idea for a CoT course goes, I will continue to see what my fellow MW'ers want. As of yet, there appears to be little interest, so it probably won't even happen. It was a nice idea, though, I think. Too bad no one agrees.

(I apologize for such a long post. I'm not a b*tch, even if this post indicates otherwise. :tongueout )

[Ravens_Tears]

I haven't had alot of time for myself these past couple months but I would be interested in this. My brother is Shinto and Taoism resonates very deeply with me.

[xmezumiiru]

I had no intention of being hostile, however, if you take being direct as hostile, then the fault lies within you, not me.

As for the comment you made about being born into a religion to practice, I never said that. I was putting forth the question on your education within the religions as something with such deep cultural roots needs extremely lengthy explanations to be understood by those not from within the culture. Hence, the call on being raised within the culture.

What I was calling you on, as you have not yet responded to, was the educational background you have in Japanese Culture. I understand you grew up near a Japanese Cultural Center, and have Japanese friends. So do I, I visit Japan and I still do not understand nuances of the culture. I read the text, in the original Japanese, and still have to ask about the meaning of certain phrases.

I believe this topic would be wonderful as a discussion group topic, to discuss myths and philosophies. Presenting a single myth, and then explaining the references of the various acts within the myth would be more beneficial and would expand into the philosophies of Tao and Zen, as they are so interwoven into the Shinto Religion.

[badkitty]

I would have taken it as confrontational as well. It sounded like I don't think your qualified, prove I am wrong, rather than an open minded inquiry into what the qualification and intentions were.

I don't know either of you, and am sticking my neck out by saying anything. I appreciate xmezumiiru inquiry. It is very frustrating to put your trust in a teacher and find out that they weren't qualified and questioning someones qualifications should occur.

I also appreciate how giving people are here and know that many share knowledge in these forums freely. that they could charge for in another location. I personally truly revere those who give freely of themselves by teaching, and would like to see that the questioning of them is done in a respectful manner.

Perhaps the perception of hostility is due to the lack of tone in email, but Benzaiten, was not the only one who percieved it that way.

All that said I think a discussion qroup is a great idea.

[Romani Vixen]

I'd like a class or a discussion group!!! :)

[DragonDawn]

I'd participate in a class like that

[badkitty]

Any plans to start this? It seems like the groups is getting to a nice size. :)

[Kenshi ~]

Today seems to be my lucky day. First I find a Buddhism course on MW, and now you're talking about starting a course on Asian Spirituality/Religions. What more can I want? _cloud9_

[Isa]

Well aside from the fact that I think Shintoism is a cultural practice that should be restricted to the ethnically Japanese and not incorporated in Wicca/Paganism ... I think the topic you've picked might be too broad. You mention including Taoism ... will that include Chinese Alchemy? The martial art aspects of Taoism? The philosophical aspects? The work of other Taoists philosophers or just Lao Tzu?

The same problem with Zen, there are two main branches of Japanese Zen with dramatic differences and ... four (I think?) sects of Chinese Zen. A full class could be done on each one of these topics (that is Shintoism, Taoism, and Zen Buddhism) I don't see how you would cover all of them adequately in one class without a lot of work @_@

[Shanti]

Well aside from the fact that I think Shintoism is a cultural practice that should be restricted to the ethnically Japanese and not incorporated in Wicca/Paganism ... I think the topic you've picked might be too broad. You mention including Taoism ... will that include Chinese Alchemy? The martial art aspects of Taoism? The philosophical aspects? The work of other Taoists philosophers or just Lao Tzu?

The same problem with Zen, there are two main branches of Japanese Zen with dramatic differences and ... four (I think?) sects of Chinese Zen. A full class could be done on each one of these topics (that is Shintoism, Taoism, and Zen Buddhism) I don't see how you would cover all of them adequately in one class without a lot of work @_@
Well you have the basic class on a generalized level. An intro type thing. It can become more detailed as people share and if someone wants to get very involved in one way....they go off on their own journey of life to find their way!
You dont have to be detailed to introdice people to basic consepts. The classes are not to create a path but to bring knowledge of it to a state of awareness.

Thats how the Buddhism class is designed!

[xmezumiiru]

... will that include Chinese Alchemy? The martial art aspects of Taoism? The philosophical aspects? The work of other Taoists philosophers or just Lao Tzu?

The same problem with Zen, there are two main branches of Japanese Zen with dramatic differences and ... four (I think?) sects of Chinese Zen. A full class could be done on each one of these topics (that is Shintoism, Taoism, and Zen Buddhism) I don't see how you would cover all of them adequately in one class without a lot of work @_@

I agree with Isa, except for the exclusivity of cultural upbringing. I would still be Catholic if that were the case. I wholeheartedly agree with her in the fact a Celtic based religion (aka Wicca) should not be mixed with any other ethnic religion on any level (aka Shinto, Kemetic/Ancient Egyptian, Islam, American Indian, etc.). However, there are so many topics under those broad terms that teaching would be a difficult task, even for someone who studied any of those subjects all their lives.

There is also the fact that different provences of Japan and different time periods focused on different Gods/desses and had differing creation stories. There are also so many cultural references that would need to be explained that Westerners have never heard of.

Well you have the basic class on a generalized level. An intro type thing. It can become more detailed as people share and if someone wants to get very involved in one way....they go off on their own journey of life to find their way!

This would be like trying to teach basic Christianity. There are so many sects that use different Bibles. How could one teach about Catholic-Christianity dogma , have the person pick up a Mormon-Christianity Bible and still keep face? Not only does it make the person teaching seem like a hypocrite, but the religions will seem like a sham. It can be very discourging to a new student.

You dont have to be detailed to introdice people to basic consepts. The classes are not to create a path but to bring knowledge of it to a state of awareness.

A person cannot teach basic anything (language, religion, spellwork, science, etc) without knowing the advanced material to explain the exceptions to the rules. [Example: X Culture doesn't eat pork, why? it's in Y myth, why? god Q is represented by a pig, why? because are considered agressive animals and their meat is sour, why? because it is observed in nature and pork spoils fast, so what does this have to do with the myth? god Z dislikes god Q in the great battle, why? becuase god Q is trying to everthrow god R, why? because that's the way it is, why? because it reflected the socio-demographic culture of the time, why? because tribe P and tribe O were at war, why? because each wanted sole domain of the land, why? because humans want to rule all, why? etc.] In this small example of a simple taboo, I referenced history, geography, sociology, mythology, religion, and psycology.

My teacher said if a teacher can answer 11 whys for one simple technique/principle or 21 whys for a complex technique/prinicple, without resorting to a 'just because', 'it's always been that way' or 'it's human nature', then he or she is qualified to teach.

Thats how the Buddhism class is designed!

I agree, but Buddist philosophy is also one basic philosophy that only guides a person to want to make personal exploration. Only on the personal exploration path does one find the differences. Buddism also is not a religion in the conventional sense with gods, myths and dogma. This makes Buddism simple to teach, yet hard to practice.

I think these topics would be better as individual discussion groups rather than teaching a single class. I also make the distinction between teaching, guided learning and discussion.

[Ravens_Tears]

...
I wholeheartedly agree with her in the fact a Celtic based religion (aka Wicca) should not be mixed with any other ethnic religion on any level (aka Shinto, Kemetic/Ancient Egyptian, Islam, American Indian, etc.).
....

I think these topics would be better as individual discussion groups rather than teaching a single class. I also make the distinction between teaching, guided learning and discussion.


I must respectfully disagree with the first statement as my ancestry is a mixture of Scottish (celtic), English (druidic), Ukranian and Mohawk (Native American). My spirituality is as eclectic as my heritage and I find that it is Tao that speaks most to me and through Tao I have come to see the commonalities, not the differences, and that all are related on a fundamental level.

I think a discussion group is an excellent idea but instead of segregating everything; just let the discussions take their own natural course :) Seperate topics will branch off in their own time.

[Isa]

I agree with Isa, except for the exclusivity of cultural upbringing. I would still be Catholic if that were the case. I wholeheartedly agree with her in the fact a Celtic based religion (aka Wicca) should not be mixed with any other ethnic religion on any level (aka Shinto, Kemetic/Ancient Egyptian, Islam, American Indian, etc.). However, there are so many topics under those broad terms that teaching would be a difficult task, even for someone who studied any of those subjects all their lives..

Let me just expand on what I meant here for a minute. I don't have a problem with cultural practices being adapted ... like say, Wiccans using medicine wheels. I personally like to keep my practices simple and as consistant as possible but I won't challenge anyone's right to import from other cultures. That is how some of our more interesting American traditions got started :D

My problem is with addressing Shinto as a religion that one can convert to, because from my experience having lived in Japan, Shinto is more a collection of common stories, practices, and myths that serve to give the Japanese an ethnic identity. Shinto mythology serves to explain what it means to be Japanese, to connect the Japanese to their past. Unlike other religions, there is no concept of right and wrong, no afterlife, no way to be "saved" or standards of a moral person (these principles as they exist in Japan are all imported from various schools of Buddhism and are not a part of traditional Shinto)... there is no reason to be Shinto other than you're Japanese and you're carrying on the traditions of your family. Most Japanese don't even consider Shinto a religion.

So if you want to put gohei paper strips up to create a sacred space, fine. Or if you want to go out and buy a Shinto home shrine to put on your altar and make offerings to your ancestors, that's cool too. It's just every time I see an article in a pagan magazine or website profiling Amaterasu as a "Goddess" as if you can invoke her in a normal Wiccan ritual, or anytime I meet a non-Japanese person who proudly proclaims herself/himself to be 'Shinto' I cringe >.< Adapting Shinto practices to your own personal religious life is fine, pretending that your adaptation is a legitimate form of worship in Shintoism is not.

I'm not sure how the OP intended to teach Shinto, so other than that little comment I couldn't resist making (with the growing popularity of all things Japanese in America today I see a lot of Wiccans/Pagans/etc searching for Japanese gods to use in rituals and stuff, it has become a major pet peeve) I don't really object to a class in Shinto. It is possible to teach people about Shintoism without taking it out of context or perverting it, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt if she wants to start a class on it

..... but I do believe the course should be restricted to one specific topic, Shinto, Taoism, Zen Buddhism, etc....

[Darakash]

Maybe it would be a good idea to do a comparitive religion/philosophy/cultural practices course first? As in, an exploration of the various ones of all of the above, what is and is not a religion, etc. And then, move on to more indepth exploration of one or each of them??

Just a thought!
Dk

[Darakash]

Maybe it would be a good idea to do a comparitive religion/philosophy/cultural practices course first? As in, an exploration of the various ones of all of the above, what is and is not a religion, etc. And then, move on to more indepth exploration of one or each of them??

Just a thought!
Dk

OK, THIS IS WIERD! This post of mine, from DEC 1....keeps showing up in my user CP as having been posted over and over again, like yesterday or this morning??? How odd! Anyway, if this is showing up for anyone else, I have not reposted it! I posted it almost a month ago!
_taparoo_

[Kendrah]

OK, THIS IS WIERD! This post of mine, from DEC 1....keeps showing up in my user CP as having been posted over and over again, like yesterday or this morning??? How odd! Anyway, if this is showing up for anyone else, I have not reposted it! I posted it almost a month ago!
_taparoo_

When people vote, it changes the date.

[Darakash]

When people vote, it changes the date.

OH, Duh! Thanks for the explanation! I was going hhuh?
Dk