Celtic Worlds...

[RubyRose]

Okay I came across an interesting website the other day, and just wondered what your thoughts were about the view of there being 3 world.

Sky, Earth and Underworld. I mean it makes sense.

Also the site showed an Arthurian representation, something which I love learning about.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any other thoughts on the topic.

Oh and here's the website which I'm refering to. http://www.celticwolf.co.uk/worlds.html

Bendithion,
RubyRose

[Seren_]

More traditionally, I think it's supposed to be Land, Sky and Sea (with sea being the Otherworld)...?

[RubyRose]

Ah, I seen that elsewhere I believe. So ... there's no real difference, if you perceive the sea to be the underworld as well.

[Morgandria]

I think the "traditional" diagram they give you on this page is misleading. The bottom diagram, the interlocking circles with the pentacle, is closer to the traditional model than the straight-line one.

Looks like some fairly traditional Irish Three Realms stuff, with Arthurian stuff inserted into places. Instead of a pentacle at the center of the realms, tho, there would normally be Bíle, the Crann Beatha or tree of life. It is also said that fire is the heart of the Three Realms.

With Sea as Underworld, it removes the presence of water, and that there are nine waves one must pass over, and the Beloved Dead travel to beyond the Ninth Wave, and thus pass through Manannan's Gate. Feels like, to me, that there's sky, and then earth, and then...more earth. (Incidentally, the nine waves were each a head of cattle, beloing to Manannan.) But that could merely be my perception...I think having the Sea component is central to the Irish model, due to its' geography, and I don't know how it would apply to a possibly Welsh model, as they are only parts of an island and the Arthurian tales often include bodies of water, but not so much the sea.

Thinking merely of physical geography, where Sky and Land overlap would be mountains or very large hills, or mounds - things that are often sacred in Irish geography. This would be where the Shining Ones, who were said to dwell in the Upper Realm, would be able to contact the Middle Realm, Land. Where Sea and Land meet is the beach, often called the "silver strand". The ocean brought life and food - but could also bring death, and on the Western shores of Ireland no-one knew what lay beyond what you could see. Passing beyond the Ninth Wave may literally have been sailing out to your death. Manannan's Gate, the passage to the afterlife, was in the Realm of the Sea, the Lower World...and there, where Sea and Sky overlap the Beloved Dead would reside in the Summerlands.

It's an interesting idea, applying the Arthurian ideas to the Irish world-model, but I think you would have to strongly believe in the Arthur myths, and disregard their Welsh nature to make that work. I still think Arthur is creative fiction based on a small bit of fact, and thusly don't.

I think this is a decent link on the historical Arthur, and there's no mention of him being Irish.
http://www.mikekemble.com/misc/kingarthur.html

[RubyRose]

Thanks Morgandria. :)

Just one thing though, Arthur is thought to be Welsh, not Irish, as the Arthurian Legends belong to Welsh Mythology and Legend.

[Morgandria]

Yes. If anything, he was a 5th C. Welsh warlord . The fact that he is Welsh is why I think that this model is inappropriate and misleading, given that it is based on an Irish worldview. It is as if the author is taking something specific to one Celtic Nation, and implying not only that it applies to a nation other than the Irish, that it also can apply to the Arthurian stories. By lending it that connotation, it implies that not only are the Arthurian stories "Celtic", they are a legitimate mythology, rather than a great deal of fiction with little actual historical basis.

-M.

[RubyRose]

Yes. If anything, he was a 5th C. Welsh warlord . The fact that he is Welsh is why I think that this model is inappropriate and misleading, given that it is based on an Irish worldview. It is as if the author is taking something specific to one Celtic Nation, and implying not only that it applies to a nation other than the Irish, that it also can apply to the Arthurian stories. By lending it that connotation, it implies that not only are the Arthurian stories "Celtic", they are a legitimate mythology, rather than a great deal of fiction with little actual historical basis.

-M.

Oh, okay. I understand better now. :lol: Got a tad confusing there for a bit before.

Bendithion,
RubyRose

[-Ember]

Just another tangent... that isn't just an Irish worldveiw. Annwn, Ddaer and Gwynfyd are Welsh.

[skilly-nilly]

Yes. If anything, he was a 5th C. Welsh warlord . The fact that he is Welsh is why I think that this model is inappropriate and misleading, given that it is based on an Irish worldview. It is as if the author is taking something specific to one Celtic Nation, and implying not only that it applies to a nation other than the Irish, that it also can apply to the Arthurian stories. By lending it that connotation, it implies that not only are the Arthurian stories "Celtic", they are a legitimate mythology, rather than a great deal of fiction with little actual historical basis.

-M.

I agree that it is inappropriate to mix up symbology from different Celtic nations--the 3 realms concept is Irish, and Annwn is Welsh. Tir-na-Og and Hy Vrasil are Irish place-names sometimes used to designate the 'Other Realm'.

I always thought that Arthur was Cornish, myself.

[mucgwyrt]

I agree that it is inappropriate to mix up symbology from different Celtic nations--the 3 realms concept is Irish, and Annwn is Welsh. Tir-na-Og and Hy Vrasil are Irish place-names sometimes used to designate the 'Other Realm'.

I always thought that Arthur was Cornish, myself.
aye, he was supposed to have been born in Tintagel in Cornwall.
BUT, cornwall was also considered to be "Wales" in the 5th Century, as 'wales' means "land of the foreigners" in anglo-saxon; it was used to refer to both the celtic lands (wales & cornwall).

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I agree that it is inappropriate to mix up symbology from different Celtic nations--the 3 realms concept is Irish, and Annwn is Welsh. Tir-na-Og and Hy Vrasil are Irish place-names sometimes used to designate the 'Other Realm'.

I always thought that Arthur was Cornish, myself.

Skilly, normally I wouldn't argue with you, but I'm not really sure on how Hy Vrasil can be an Irish place name to designate the 'Other Realm.' There is no y or v in the Irish alphabt.

[banondraig]

it's written as a "v" in english to simulate the aspirated "b".

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

That still doesn't explain the y.

[banondraig]

true. my guess would be that it's another weird transliteration. sort of like the way `O Conchobair somehow becomes O'Connor when written in an english-language context.

[Seren_]

I always thought that Arthur was Cornish, myself.

That's one theory. I'm not sure any of them can actually be proved. And thinking about it, not sure where the Tintagel association came from, to be honest. Feel free to enlighten me, someone :D...

The question of Arthur is probably one of the earliest tourist attractions known to Britain (in writing, that is). He got around, that much can be said. Not just Tintagel, but Wales - through the Mabinogion - and also Scotland. Especially where my husband is from (a place called Barrhead), but also Edinburgh - Arthur's Seat. I suppose the idea of Arthur freeing the people from the oppressors is easily adaptable in this context. Or at least fighting the good fight.

I had the chance to do a dig at Tintagel once, and I really regret not taking it up...

[mucgwyrt]

no idea - it's just marketed as his birth place by national heritage ;)

Oo a dig at tintagel would be sooo interesting (if windswpt!)

xx

[ap Dafydd]

aye, he was supposed to have been born in Tintagel in Cornwall.
BUT, cornwall was also considered to be "Wales" in the 5th Century, as 'wales' means "land of the foreigners" in anglo-saxon; it was used to refer to both the celtic lands (wales & cornwall).

You pays your money and you takes your choice, of course.

There's one group of legends around the South West, one around Wales, and one around the Old North.

At the time, you could travel from one to the other without going through English territory so cultural things were common - Taliesin wrote poems in Powys as well as Rheged.

Personally I think Arthur was Welsh, but then I would, wouldn't I?

Fe ddaw y dydd!

Ffred

[skilly-nilly]

Skilly, normally I wouldn't argue with you, but I'm not really sure on how Hy Vrasil can be an Irish place name to designate the 'Other Realm.' There is no y or v in the Irish alphabt.


:fpraise: So true!

As you know I am an illiterate non-Celtic-language person, so for me 'Hi Brazil' reads very oddly. Substituting 'y' for the 'i' sound and 'V' for the 'aspirated B' is an adjustment I have often seen in English-language translations of folk-tales, so I use it because it looks better to me. I don't see that there's any reason to translate 'aspirate' as 'B' anyway.

:shift: , skilly-nilly

[RubyRose]

You pays your money and you takes your choice, of course.

There's one group of legends around the South West, one around Wales, and one around the Old North.

At the time, you could travel from one to the other without going through English territory so cultural things were common - Taliesin wrote poems in Powys as well as Rheged.

Personally I think Arthur was Welsh, but then I would, wouldn't I?

Fe ddaw y dydd!

Ffred

I'd have to agree with you, Arthur's Welsh ... I mean Arthurian Legends, even though I've only recently started to get into all that research, its gotta be Welsh based.

[mucgwyrt]

I'd have to agree with you, Arthur's Welsh ... I mean Arthurian Legends, even though I've only recently started to get into all that research, its gotta be Welsh based.
Why?
(just curious :D )

[skilly-nilly]

Why?
(just curious :D )

I'm wondering too...why 'gotta be'?

[RubyRose]

:whatgives
Umm. Because to me the Legends have always seemed to belong in Welsh Mythology.

I mean the Tales of King Arthur, Gwenwhyvar & Lancelot, have always existed as Welsh, I wouldn't have thought that the Myths would even be up for debate.

However, I have yet to delve probably into my research into the Arthurian Legends, and have only been reading fictious accounts so far.

Now that doesn't mean that Arthur couldn't have been born in Cornwell, or someplace else ...

Okay, I haven't done much research, and what I have done, could blantantly pull down my whole argument. I'm not getting into the Characters origins, but the Legends are definitely Welsh.

*scurries off to do research*

Bendithion,
RubyRose

[mucgwyrt]

:whatgives
Umm. Because to me the Legends have always seemed to belong in Welsh Mythology.

I mean the Tales of King Arthur, Gwenwhyvar & Lancelot, have always existed as Welsh, I wouldn't have thought that the Myths would even be up for debate.

However, I have yet to delve probably into my research into the Arthurian Legends, and have only been reading fictious accounts so far.

Now that doesn't mean that Arthur couldn't have been born in Cornwell, or someplace else ...

Okay, I haven't done much research, and what I have done, could blantantly pull down my whole argument. I'm not getting into the Characters origins, but the Legends are definitely Welsh.

*scurries off to do research*

Bendithion,
RubyRose
My earlier point though, was that Cornwall was once "Wales" as well. So it's perfectly possible the "wales" in the tales is Corn-wales :D

I'm just arguing the other side of the fence - in truth I haven't a clue :)

[banondraig]

it's my understanding, and i could be wrong, that lancelot did not even show up in the myths until the french retellings during the medieval period when "courtly love" was fashionable. apparently every married woman needed to have a boyfriend who would not expect her to commit the actual act of adultery in order to be fashionable. :rolleyes: then again, i don't remember my source exactly, so i could be wrong.

[mucgwyrt]

I read something similar about Merlin; that he was a much later edition I mean, not a courtly lover :lol:

[Seren_]

it's my understanding, and i could be wrong, that lancelot did not even show up in the myths until the french retellings during the medieval period when "courtly love" was fashionable. apparently every married woman needed to have a boyfriend who would not expect her to commit the actual act of adultery in order to be fashionable. :rolleyes: then again, i don't remember my source exactly, so i could be wrong.

I think you're right. Lancelot isn't even a Welsh name, I don't think. The Arthur of the Mabinogion is a fairly peripheral character in that he doesn't figure too much, but things take place in his court in some tales. No love triangles and all that. It's more the work of historians like Gildas and Nennius who give Arthur more of a character, mentioning the battles against the Anglo-Saxons and so forth.

The Mabinogion tales do place him quite firmly in Wales, at Caerleon, for instance - but I guess that could be a local variation of the tale. At the end of the day, there are places associated with him the length and breadth of Britain. It wouldn't be the first time that a tale or work of poetry was preserved accidentally in Wales, when it didn't take place there (like the Gododdin, say). Since Wales and England spoke pretty much the same language at one time, it's probably no surprise that popular tales were preserved in the last stronghold of that language once the Anglo-Saxons started setttling. Then again, Wales is the earliest source to introduce any tales of Arthur to us...so maybe that does mean he was Welsh. :whatgives

[Seren_]

I read something similar about Merlin; that he was a much later edition I mean, not a courtly lover :lol:

Yes, and apparently he was originally called Myrddin, or something like it (with the dd pronounced as a hard "th" in Welsh). But as the tales made their way over to France, his name got changed to Merlin because Myrddin looked and sounded a bit too close to the French merde.

So one theory goes...

[mucgwyrt]

I think you're right. Lancelot isn't even a Welsh name, I don't think. The Arthur of the Mabinogion is a fairly peripheral character in that he doesn't figure too much, but things take place in his court in some tales. No love triangles and all that. It's more the work of historians like Gildas and Nennius who give Arthur more of a character, mentioning the battles against the Anglo-Saxons and so forth.

The Mabinogion tales do place him quite firmly in Wales, at Caerleon, for instance - but I guess that could be a local variation of the tale. At the end of the day, there are places associated with him the length and breadth of Britain. It wouldn't be the first time that a tale or work of poetry was preserved accidentally in Wales, when it didn't take place there (like the Gododdin, say). Since Wales and England spoke pretty much the same language at one time, it's probably no surprise that popular tales were preserved in the last stronghold of that language once the Anglo-Saxons started setttling. Then again, Wales is the earliest source to introduce any tales of Arthur to us...so maybe that does mean he was Welsh. :whatgives
But surely as Caerleon is Roman, it's unlikely to have been a celtic stronghold? :huh:

[banondraig]

there were actually a good number of celts living in former roman strongholds, perhaps because they liked to live in the roman fashion, or perhaps because the romans wree gone. the romans actually liked to leave tribal government more or less in place, as long as everyone paid their taxes and obeyed the roman overlords. so it's actually quite likely that there would have been celts living in a roman stronghold.

[mucgwyrt]

there were actually a good number of celts living in former roman strongholds, perhaps because they liked to live in the roman fashion, or perhaps because the romans wree gone. the romans actually liked to leave tribal government more or less in place, as long as everyone paid their taxes and obeyed the roman overlords. so it's actually quite likely that there would have been celts living in a roman stronghold.
Very true :)

[RubyRose]

Okay, from what I know thus far ... Lancelot (Lancelot du Lac) was added by Chretian de Troyes, a French Writer, to give the tales a more Romantic appeal.

Merlin, he may have been added, but there seems to have been a historical figure by the name of Myrddin. If you've ever read Mary Stewarts 'Hollow Hills' you'll know the story. He was supposedly born of an unhuman father and a Princess. Known as Myrddin Emrys or Merlinus Ambrosius. He is also thought to be Aurelius Ambrosius' son, thus linking Merlin to Igraine and Arthur.

:whatgives I'm not 100% put that's what I've picked up over time.

Also France was part of what originally was Gaul. Germany also being part of Gaul. Which is included today in Celtic History.

(Oh the map included in this post comes from http://kingarthursknights.com/etc/map.asp
I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it seemed interesting enough to post it.)

Bendithion,
RubyRose

[Seren_]

Here's an article that might be of interest in relation to the Celtic worlds...

Irish perceptions of the cosmos (http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c23/c23-174.pdf)

[RubyRose]

Thanks.