education?

[pilvikki]

most parents are faced with a kid one day sighing: "oh, what's the point in going to school, it's just a waste of time...?"

when my granddaughter pulled that one on me i was briefly stumped, as i went on a long jaunt into the distant past of my educational experiences. what did i learn? really.

most of my education could be filed under ancient history, especially such as math, home ec., geography, chemistry, latin, psychology, nutrition, even the languages have evolved. religion was a joke [we played cards], but i always had excellent marks in it because it was so damn easy! i have an atlas circa 1967, which is about 30% accurate; we have new mountains, new islands, new cities and countries.

when i think about it, there is in fact precious little that i learned from my homework which is useful in my life. it also annoys me to no end is that the stuff i should have retained probably departed first....

what i did learn as a child, and what did stick was - for better or for worse - gleaned from mainly my grandparents, my parents and their friends. like my unfailing curiosity.

i'm not advocating home schooling for all, so i told my wee lass that school was learning about people, life, learning to learn, learning to think, getting prepared for her life in the world. it sounded pretty pathetic to me, but she bought it and did not bug me for a long time. [or i'd just totally put her off asking anything.]

so, what is the general opinion on the educational system nowadays?

[i'd post this as a poll, but can't figure out how that's done... bah.]

[Myst]

Primary and secondary school exist to give children a basic introduction to various ideas, principles, theories, concepts, and careers. It tries to provide basic info about as many things as possible and then the child can choose where to go from there in later highschool years and finally college....

[pilvikki]

yes, that's how it's SUPPOSED to work, but i was actually asking for opinions on how well it does work now.

[Myst]

Yes and I was commenting that that's what it does. If you feel that's what it's SUPPOSED to do then I'd say I've indicated it works fine in my humble opinion, wouldn't you?

[pilvikki]

ok.... gotcha!

still, that's how it was SUPPOSED to work before. and it didn't. not 40 yrs ago, not 30 yrs, not 20 yrs ago....

something got lost in the translation. and yes, any system works for some, not for others.

[Myst]

Ok, how did it not work before, in your opinion?

[gunner]

caiti asking questions is she? good for her! i went into the new york city school system a couple of months before the japanese made a serious strategic mistake, back in '41. basically they taught me to read and do simple math and i took it from there, reading omnivorously, a little bit of everything on any field that caught my fancy. a habit that persists today to the point where i was recently accused of being a college professor, a charge i deny vigorously. it's my thought that most learning gets done outside of schools when you read for the fun of it and the current failure of schools in the u.s. to adequately teach reading is a cheat on the children, condemming them to ignorance and poverty. but then u.s. schools have been guilty of several sorts of discrimination for most of the 20th century. i can't answer for canadian schools but i do know of one case where a dyslexic girl's family was told that "it would be no use to educate her beyond high school", never mind that she was a bright young woman and there is a very good specialist college for dyslexics not 10 miles from where i'm sitting now that likely could have done quite well by her. (and if anyone knows of someone in a similiar situation look up "landmark college" in putney vermont.) i've got a low opinion of modern public schools as a rule and favor having alternatives available if for no other reason than to provide them needed competition.

[slvr_phoenix]

I think schools are as much about social growth as they are about intellectual learning. Which is one area where home schooling, and even private schooling, can be at a great disadvantage to public schools. Though others would of course argue the other ways. Heh heh. :)

In that, I think public schools are doing a pretty good job, all considered.

And perhaps for some people school (up to high school) doesn't do much for them. However, for others it helps them a great deal to prepare for further education or vocation. I think, if anything, it gives kids a choice. Some may choose a path in which what was taught in school isn't really needed. Others may choose to get the most out of school and to then get the most out of higher education and then go into a highly intellectual career. So to me, what schools give kids is choice. The choice to delve into the depths of science, mathematics, literature, history, art, language, etc. Or the choice to not delve into them.

Schools don't really FORCE kids to learn much. The minimum requirements to graduate high school are pretty pathetic even when teachers aren't pushing kids through classes and giving them undeserved grades. However, for a student that WANTS to learn, most schools will provide that knowledge, or will provide a stepping-stone towards that knowledge that the student might not otherwise have.

So to me, schools give kids a choice, and I think they do that pretty well.

[pilvikki]

ok, raven, simple:

school left me feeling stupid. i'm ADD with all the implications of coming across as a real blonde, talking out of turn [meaning answering before the questioner had finished], losing track of time/day/homework. i did not socialize well in the general chit-chat mode. i was considered funny - odd, clever, but i never knew that until years later, so i left school thinking myself a moron. which in turn....

that was then, there.

here: i have 3 kids, 2 classified "genius", 1 average. guess which one of them is presently gainfully employed?

i have a granddaughter w/tourette's, whose teacher told me she should stop acting up and get serious. this at the age of 11. and furthermore, that kid was about as serious they get, morbidly serious, and she'd LOVE to stop 'acting up'. if she could. the teacher had not been aware of tourette's, yet after the information was presented to her, she still did not act on it. she simply could not bend her mind around the concept.

the school system even now caters to a certain segment of students who fit the criterion, but ignores, and even abuses, the rest.

[pilvikki]

nah, that was nik. nik doing the full eye-roll, sighing, dramatic act of the dying swan.

the kids were picking on her and every so often she'd have a snoutful. she's much happier in highschool. phew.

i learned to read 3 yrs before going to school, and no, i wasn't 1, heheh, our school started at the ripe old age of 7. mother nagged the teacher into taking me at 6 since i already read the newspapers anyway. [finnish is phonetic spelling, learning to read really is no trick at all.]

[pilvikki]

So to me, what schools give kids is choice. The choice to delve into the depths of science, mathematics, literature, history, art, language, etc. Or the choice to not delve into them.

Schools don't really FORCE kids to learn much.

that's just it: considering their age, for a kid there are a bewildering array of choices to make/not to make. especially for someone with a wide variety of interests.

it's hard to 'force' a kid to learn. often impossible. learning should be interesting, not tedious. how many hate/hated history? that was one of my favourite subject, because my parents suplemented my dry as dust lessons with our historical encyclopedia which was written in a lively, fascinating way full of anecdotes.

[Illuminatus]

Language skills and reading are taught at the young ages. These are INVALUABLE. In teaching those, and encouraging them to read, they are learning... how to learn. I was a poor student, but a voracious reader when I was young. I learned more from that than school, I think.

- Illuminatus!

[Lavender]

I see your point...been wondering the same thing myself. For the first 4 years of my son's life, we've been teaching him to respect people, to see past the obvious differences, that gender should not matter. He starts kindergarten & came home & said girls were icky & dumb! If your child is different in any way from the "norm", then you have to fight tooth & nail to get what your child needs. We've been pretty fortunate with Erick's teachers but it wasn't all luck. In kindergarten, I interviewed 6 teachers at 3 different schools before we chose. I not only checked out the kindergarten teachers but had an interview with the principal & the grade 1 teachers. My friends, who did not have kids then, thought I was neurotic. Perhaps I was but it's my one & only here. We ended up with wonderful, caring, nurturing teachers that made learning fun. The funny thing is that a lot of my friends are doing the same thing I did! :D

[Myst]

Originally posted by gunner
i can't answer for canadian schools but i do know of one case where a dyslexic girl's family was told that "it would be no use to educate her beyond high school", never mind that she was a bright young woman and there is a very good specialist college for dyslexics not 10 miles from where i'm sitting now that likely could have done quite well by her. (and if anyone knows of someone in a similiar situation look up "landmark college" in putney vermont.)

Dyslexics don't need a special college IMHO anyway. My fiance, a dyslexic, is the most brilliant person I know and put himself through college and worked his butt off. Meanwhile, my father's a dyslexic and yet can read like you wouldn't believe, he just can't write, and when he was younger he was just told he was stupid. I also have two other friends who are dyslexic who are just as sharp as anyone else, and also went through normal colleges. I feel bad for that young girl you know, she truly was shafted :(

[gunner]

"Dyslexics don't need a special college IMHO anyway. My fiance, a dyslexic, is the most brilliant person I know and put himself through college and worked his butt off. Meanwhile, my father's a dyslexic and yet can read like you wouldn't believe, he just can't write, and when he was younger he was just told he was stupid. I also have two other friends who are dyslexic who are just as sharp as anyone else, and also went through normal colleges. I feel bad for that young girl you know, she truly was shafted"


you reinforce my point, dyslexics are not "stupid" nor "retards" etcetra, ad nauseum and can be often brighter than average as your dad and fiance demonstrate. the same applies to "add", i have not met polvikki's grand daughter in person yet but she is very intelligent, talented and lovely, (her pics have been posted here and her mom has a web site that shows some of nik's art in the anime field) but with pilvikki and threenorns as grandmother and mother neither her beauty or intelligence are a surprise. all too often society mistakes the label for the person as we see and know all too well.

(i'll leave threenorns the option of choosing to post her site url or not but i hope she will, it's a good site and i think it worth a visit.)

[pilvikki]

:bigredgri

oh gee, gunner, you got me all blushing, mate!

and as for nik's good looks, i rather thought they were a surprise, she's so much an improvement on the older models, lol!

[Sequoia]

This issue really REALLY makes me mad.

There are a lot of Genius-level kids who fidgit because they're bored in class (I know *I* was!), and are labled as ADD.

My boyfriend was one of those ADD kids. They made him take medication that basically turned him into a child-zombie, they put him in the "special" classes aka the classes where reading consists of "See Spot Run" for 6th grade. . . They generally made him feel like an idiot.

He is one of the most intellegent people you will ever meet.

He understands topics that I cannot grasp, and I have an "IQ" of 153. . . I'm supposed to be a genius, but by the gods, there are some things I just don't get! My boyfriend is an excellent tactition, he is extremely logical, he is very much so a genius, my equal or better, yet the ADD things ruined his education for him. He has a lot of trouble reading, which I'm helping him with right now. He's making a great deal of effort to catch up from being wronged by the schools. Too much is based on "how easy is it to teach this kid?" rather than "how can I encourage this child to learn?" . . . It's a shame. So very many children see school as a prison, as something torturous and horrible. . . I myself, I was mocked all through school. Not only because of my size (I am taller and larger than most people in my peer group), but also because while they were talking about YM magasine, I was searching out the teacher who I could discuss scientific theories with. . . school did NOT enrich me. . . it was the same darn thing over and over again every year from about 7th grade on. Peers were horrible, teaching was bare-bones, life was H311. I stayed home for about a year, took a test, and went on to college where I am happily now. . . I can learn things here! It's not the same thing over and over. . . it's not teachers who are underpaid and bored and not wanting to teach a bunch of disrepectful hoodlums. It's not kids sitting in the back of the class laughing and talking and making it so those of us trying to learn can't hear the instructor. It's education. And I'm sad to say I lost education in 7th grade and didnt' gain it till college. The public schools (at least here in California) are sadly, sadly lacking. It's one reason I'm becoming a teacher: we need SOMEBODY trying to help. There's lots of teachers doing their best, but without enough support they can't do anything.

So in my opinion, no. Schools are disgraceful right now. They're not educating children to the level that high school is supposed to fufil, and they're not encouraging growth of young minds.

Perhaps if the classes were taught better and more interestingly, then the kids would rather be in class then out smoking dope.

So what if the lesson plan isn't average! If the kids learn and they are THERE, what does it matter!? If they're learning all they're supposed to be, then who in the name of kami-sama says that they have to be learning out of a 20-year-old textbook!?


This has been my rant for the day.

~Puma

[Myst]

Inasmuch as it's said that the education system does not cater to those with "learning disabilities" it also may not cater to those with learning ability such as yours, Puma. Truly, it's no surprise that as a genius you were bored. Unfortunately for you, the system is catered to the majority, and the majority aren't as brilliant as you. Thus, you're expected to excel and take upon yourself further education - ie. enrichment etc. So you could've asked your parents to send you to a special school, or you could've joined enrichment, etc. There is, or at least there was at my school, special arrangements that can be made for people such as yourself.

And I'm truly sorry at your bf's mistreatment. However, while what goes on may not be the best answer, it is an improvement on the past where people with these problems were just labelled as stupid and troublemakers. The difference in self esteem alone between my father and my fiance is indicative of that.

[pilvikki]

apparently most add's are above average intelligence, which really muddles the issue. [reason could be their brains just won't shut off so they just keep on thinking and thinking and thinking. it's also one sure way to get into trouble, should your thinking go a wee bit awry....]

and yes, it seems schooling is 'formal' education: fit the form or else! horrible waste of talent, if nothing else.

[Myst]

Originally posted by pilvikki
and yes, it seems schooling is 'formal' education: fit the form or else! horrible waste of talent, if nothing else.

I could possibly agree in the case of public education. However, I sincerely feel the best they can do with the majority and using the limited money and support from the government..... the onus is on the family to take the student further...

[threenorns]

the law SAYS that children must be educated -- therefore, it's up to the schools to make sure that all children are educated! if the child is a genius, then it's the school's responsibility to make sure that that child graduates at a level higher than the norm, while if the child is of below normal ability, then it's the schoo's job to make sure that that child has at least the ability to function in society and to an extent that allows him or her to be further trained by specialists.

i live in a VERY small town -- my kids bus to school (an hour and fifteen minutes each way) in the next town.

last year, my younger daughter (caiti) and my god-daughter (alicia) went to a catholic school: it was DISMAL. my daughter was being bullied by another girl who was supposed to be constantly monitored because she was so violent (she knocked another kid's teeth out by slamming her face into the drinking fountain spigot!). when i found out, i went to the principal -- do you know what that !@#@!# said?! she said it was caiti's fault because she didn't make the bully feel welcome! i said, excuse me!? i was truly, deeply shocked! i asked "since when is it required that children be forced to play with kids that they're afraid of!?" the next day, i transferred caiti to the public school.

the public schools go on strike every other year or so, and it looks like they're going on strike again. we spent a total of $500 on school supplies for three kids plus my god-daughter -- supposedly, public elementary school provides everyting, but the secretary said that the supplies have been coming in by dribs and drabs and that it's just as well that i bought all the paper, pens, pencils, etc. there is no full-time principal, no full-time secretary, no school nurse. teachers and principal have to double up duty PLUS monitor the halls and playgrounds. there are no monitors on the busses. caiti doesn't mind the public school as much as the other one because she can be with her "bestest" friend, but they are still picked on and bullied.

the only reason nikkita isn't bullied and picked on any more is because of her maturity (she's in grade 10, but has been signed up for grade 12 computer tech -- image and video editing! -- and for grade 12 history -- world religions). she gets along well with kids in the upper grades and has had the good sense to target those who demonstrate a strong ethic toward school and work. she is also the "waterboy" for the football team (seems her tech teacher is the coach and felt she could use "a bit of meat on her bones" -- she's 5'6" almost and doesn't weigh a hundred pounds).

when i was in high school, i failed math three times: i knew what the answer was, but i couldn't "prove" it, so it was marked wrong. the counsellor told me to make sure i found a husband who'd be able to take care of things like balancing my chequebook.

at 22, i was finally assessed and yes, math is my worst: at 83rd percentile! so all those years i spent thinking i was some kind of idiot savant were wasted!

i have very bitter memories of public school (college ROCKS!!!!! :D ), and while caiti seems to be able to forge her way through, nik still has to deal with teachers who refuse to understand her or give her the minimum she needs to be comfortable (such as a seat immediately by the door so she can leave whenever she needs to before her grunts, squeaks, and barks disrupt the class and make her a target). one teacher last year told her that not only did she have to sit in the middle of the class (alphabetical seating), but she had to raise her hand if she wanted to leave the room, AND she had to "keep quiet"! thankfully nik brought it to the attention of the vice-principal (she usually just suffers in sullen, resentful, misery and relative silence) and that situation was sorted out post-haste.

now they've changed the curriculum: kids in grade 6 need scientific calculators -- and they can't even long-divide! they no longer teach analog time -- it's all digital -- and i think that that's really screwing up things like percentages, decimals, fractions, and algebra.

every year from grade three on through grade 8, they teach the same things over and over and over again -- the theory is "constant reinforcement". my experience? caiti didn't get it in grade 3, she didn't get it in grade 4, she didn't get it in grade 5 -- the only thing she learned is that she's "dumb"!

the social thing is the only reason i keep my kids in elementary school -- our town is remote and there are exactly two kids for caiti to play with, and both of them are as useful as a bag of hammers (one is -- quite objectively speaking-- as dumb as a stump and spends her time making sure that whatever caiti has, she has one better, while the other does things like invite caiti over to play, takes off before she even gets there -- or tells her mother to say she's not in -- and then when caiti gets back home, she phones her up and chews her out for not coming!).

bleargh.

[/rant]

btw: my website is www.threenorns.co.uk

[Myst]

Originally posted by threenorns
the law SAYS that children must be educated -- therefore, it's up to the schools to make sure that all children are educated! if the child is a genius,

They *are* educated, even if they don't enjoy being educated. All the law says is that they must go to school, and they are doing that, since schools provided, right? Beyond that... To say they aren't being educated at all is kind of silly, IMHO, if they weren't, they wouldn't be able to read, nor write, nor do simple math would they? If they got no education then wouldn't they be at the same level as a preschool child?

On the bullying thing, I was bullied too, as were most children at some point. Whether this has to do with the level of national education systems or a few bad teachers and principles is somewhat up to debate. Schools try to keep kids safe by considering implementing video cameras, checking lockers, and using metal detectors at doors, and then get hammered for "infringing rights". Whether there aren't enough teachers or whether they're striking, I think, relies more on the government and it's support, not the school itself.

I'm really sorry you've had to see these problems, and I hope you and the kids can find a better answer. Perhaps join the PTA and attend meetings to help implement changes, or think about homeschooling. Homeschooling doesn't mean your kids won't get social interaction, perhaps you'll find more info on that online :)

[Sequoia]

ne, Willow Raven? Have you got kids who are in school right now?

I can totally sympathize with everyone. . . the schools will not do anything about bullies. . . in fact, when you finally end up in a fight (I did >.<) it's not their fault, it's YOURS for being so easy to pick on!!!

EXCUSE ME!?

*shakes head* society is really going down the drain, and it's starting with kids in school.

I think that they're teaching repitition because so many students just don't CARE! They just sit through class talking and laughing and not paying attention. At least in Elementary most kids have SOME respect for their teachers, because they're bigger than the students. . . other than that, it's like kids have free reign. The bullies get whatever they want, the meeker ones don't get crud. NOBODY'S learning to a good level!

Elementary's supposed to provide materials. They DON'T. Most schools can't afford them anymore. So teachers do the best they, usually bringing things from home out of their own pocket, and they're forced to ask teh parents to bring the items.

And I won't even START on JR High and High school!

Did you know until yesterday, I had no clue what something called the "War of 1812" was? That I never knew America had been in any wars other than civil, world, and the revolution? And WHOAH my awesome history teacher is talking. . . and while he was talking about it I was about to ask him, when about three students who looked fresh from high school asked him what was the war of 1812. . . .so it wasn't just me, it looks like MOST students miss out on things like that. . . So very much is left out of the lesson plan! You see, they have to plan for the "average" mind. . . I"ve found that the average mind is a great deal more intellegent than the teachers are told, and so many kids are capable of learning MUCH more, yet nobody's teaching them like they're supposed to! The curriculum really truely is lacking. The intellegent ones get shafted, the slower students who need more assistance get shafted, the average students ALSO get shafted. . . . I don't know if anyone noticed, but it's a constant lose-lose situation.

BTW Willow Raven - I was in those gifted classes.. . .hah! We had to PAY for them! And it was mostly just arts and crafts, not more learning. . . basically a special kind of after-school daycare. . . . About the only useful one was the class I had to fight and scrape to get into, and that was American Sign Language. . . that was very very kewl. But there was pretty much nothing else. And it was just sad, because I KNOW all the kids in there could have been learning much more interesting things. . . . yet we weren't being taught. . . oooh and I love the school's excuses for the advanced classes: Same Curriculum, Three Times Faster. And I"m not kidding; I was in the so-called advanced math class. . . HAH! They took the EXACT same curriculum as the average class, and just sped it up! Not new info, just faster with more homework. And THIS constituted advanced. . . *shakes head*

I'm seriously considering homeschooling my children when I have them in the future. . . if Public schools get any worse, it'll be like having a dog try to teach a monkey sign language. The dog gets frustrated, the monkey gets bored, and the only thing either learns is that the effort is stupid and fruitless.

I need to get to college. . . . COLLEGE IS INCREDIBLE!!! If only public schools could have such dedicated and creative teachers as College instructors. . . . I am having more fun and learning more here then I ever did in my whole life. It's a candy-land for me!

see you all later

~Puma

[Myst]

Originally posted by Puma Hime
BTW Willow Raven - I was in those gifted classes.. . .hah! We had to PAY for them! And it was mostly just arts and crafts, not more learning. . . basically a special kind of after-school daycare. . . . About the only useful one was the class I had to fight and scrape to get into, and that was American Sign Language. . . that was very very kewl. But there was pretty much nothing else. And it was just sad, because I KNOW all the kids in there could have been learning much more interesting things. . . . yet we weren't being taught. . . oooh and I love the school's excuses for the advanced classes: Same Curriculum, Three Times Faster. And I"m not kidding; I was in the so-called advanced math class. . . HAH! They took the EXACT same curriculum as the average class, and just sped it up! Not new info, just faster with more homework. And THIS constituted advanced. . . *shakes head*

Actually, I just finished college, I'm 21, meaning I just got out of highschool myself 2 years ago. So I assure you, I remember well primary and secondary schools. If we want to argue bullying, well I have some great stories myself, including being spat on and beaten, among other things. I don't blame this on the school system myself, but the kids involved and their parents for not teaching them better. Maybe we should remember that the education system exists to educate, not to raise kids properly... ? Just my humble opinion.

You had to pay for it? Uhm, so? It's not like these folks have lots of money to throw around. Personally, had I the opportunity to take advanced classes I would've gladly paid for them. Either that, or you could've taken correspondence courses so you could complete your courses just as fast as you wanted to and go to college even earlier. And to me, faster with more homework would constitute advanced (it certainly isn't 'normal' or 'regular' class is it?). If you are that upset with it why not switch schools, ask your teacher for extra work, do extra work on your own, or start tutoring and helping other students?

I'm sure college professors do make much more of an effort, being as normally they have life experience in the subject they're teaching (rather then having just been handed a curriculum handbook), they're getting paid more, and the students who come to them and have had to pay for their education are much more likely to pay attention and work hard. Certainly, that fits the professors I knew - most of them seasoned in the subjects they were teaching, several of them who were only teaching to fill up their "retirement" time - being as they'd retired in their 40's! My favourite prof mentioned he'd spent 3 years fishing and chose to come back to teach to help ambitious new talented people to break into the IT field.

There are plenty of schools out there to choose from, or yes, you can homeschool too.

Well, being as my fiance and one of my best friends are both sons of teachers I think perhaps that's why I understand things differently.

[threenorns]

if the students are chattering and laughing and disrupting class, whose fault is it:

the students (for being rude and undisciplined)? or
the teachers (for failing to maintain discipline and engage the student's attention?).

and in canada, anyway, the law does NOT say that kids have to attend school -- otherwise homeschooling would be illegal. it says that children have to meet certain educational milestones -- which the vast majority of them are failing to do, in school or out.

recently, a province-wide test determined that SIXTY PERCENT of grade ten students were unable to perform basic literacy and numeracy tasks!

my younger daughter, not a genius but a dedicated and hard worker, cannot multiply more than two digits and has great difficulty with long-division -- and she's in grade 7! she didn't learn to read until she was nearly in grade 4, which is when my dad got her the Harry Potter books: suddenly she could read! (before, she'd struggle through a paragraph and by the end of it, she'd forgotten what she read before). that tells me that the problem with the reading bit was the dismally BORING books they make the kids read!

as for gym, i don't know HOW many times i had to go in and talk to the gym teacher and tell him or her to STOP making my kids do situps and plows (both are lethal for the spinal column and useless for what they're supposed to be doing).

for the record, i teach on a regular basis: i was a faculty assistant (read "underpaid teacher") for DeVry, i have taught at Canadore College, and i regularly accept private tutoring commissions in a wide variety of subjects, but usually computers, english, and math. i make it a point to ensure that my students fully understand before proceeding to the next point. when i'm teaching a class, i can see who's getting it and who isn't. the ones who do get it, i assign them seatwork while i work with the ones who are having trouble. if all else fails, i schedule a private tutoring session after class -- but i NEVER proceed with the next point without checking how many ppl are having trouble. if i see that more than 25% of the class are having trouble, then we review from the beginning and i make the ones who do understand teach each point to the rest of the class. i am a VERY hard marker -- if the student hasn't satisfied me that he or she understands the concept, then he or she doesn't get the mark and must do makeup assignments: end of subject. by being such a beeyotch, i brought a class average of 45% up to 83% within five weeks.

why more teachers don't follow this guidelines, i don't know -- it's not like the curriculum is THAT demanding (i've seen it -- it's posted online).

[Myst]

Originally posted by threenorns
if the students are chattering and laughing and disrupting class, whose fault is it:

the students (for being rude and undisciplined)? or
the teachers (for failing to maintain discipline and engage the student's attention?).

and in canada, anyway, the law does NOT say that kids have to attend school -- otherwise homeschooling would be illegal. it says that children have to meet certain educational milestones -- which the vast majority of them are failing to do, in school or out.


My response would be the students for misbehaving, or perhaps the parents for not teaching them to behave. I've been in many a class where the teacher asks people to be quiet, demands that people be quiet, or even removes a student for not being a quiet - kids still chatter. When I've been in this situation I've asked the kids to be quiet, or talked to the teacher afterwards and asked them to ask people to be quiet, or just sat closer to the front...

And by "attending school" I did not say people must attend school outside of the home.. I didn't say "go to school", "travel to school", or that I meant students have to attend A school, but that they must attend (pay attention to) school, meaning they are to have some sort of system by which they are educated. Just to clarify.

At this point I'm looking up the specific laws in Ontario, tho I've seen a few people respond, so maybe we should consider all the laws of everyone in the conversation???

On your daughter's experience - I don't know about the school she attends, but the one I attended offered special staff to give extra help for students, as well as a special resource room, and tutors from grade one on. Are these programs implemented at your school and if so, have you taken advantage of them?

[Myst]

Oh, useful link.

Here's one for the Ontario Ministry of Education's policies on special education - http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/elemsec/speced/speced.html ,curriculum and policy stuff - http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/curricul/curricul.html , policy and reference - http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/curricul/policy.html ... heck, you'll find lots of information so look around :)

[Myst]

Ok, found it.

"In Ontario, all permanent residents between the ages of 6 and 16 must attend school." - http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/elemsec/es_overview.html

Hm that's on the Ministry of Education site for Ontario, so I think it would be true for Ontario schools...?

[threenorns]

there are NO special programs for kids unless they're extremely, visibly disabled.

caitlin did get hooked up with a reading buddy from the high school (which didn't help because she still had to read the same stupid books), but there's nothing for nik because she's genius level, not sub-average.

the high school IS making every accomodation possible: she's always given the very first seat right next to the door, she is not required to ask permission to leave the room (if she has to leave, she leaves), she has a small room she can hide in if her tics are out of control, for certain subjects she can write the test or exam in her private room away from distractions like open windows or ticking clocks (the sound drives her mad and she can't focus), and on those occasions where she's lost weeks because of her tourette's, they are willing to accept her homework assignments by email. they have also placed her in one grade 12 course (computer technology) and she may also be placed in grade 12 history (world religions).

next year, she will be able to write "challenge exams" -- a new thing that's come out,where a student writes a proficiency test and if he or she passes, he or she gets the credit without having to sit through the course.

it's just a bloody shame that it's taken 10 years to find this school, with nik never attending any one school for more than two years (usually never the same two in a row). its' also a bloody shame that this school is in a dinky liddle podunk town in north-eastern ontario instead of in a big city like toronto where you'd EXPECT more enlightened teaching to be implemented!

i can't help thinking what nik would be like if she'd managed to start her education IN the high school instead of being run down by a series of mostly oblivious, bored teacher-drones with only the occasional bright ray of interest and compassion.....

i'm not kidding: pilvikki mentioned a teacher who said nik just needed to "settle down" -- what she didn't tell you was that that teacher flatly denied the existence of anyting like dyslexia, ADHD (which nik has, not ADD), OCD, tourette's, etc. she claimed it just reflected a "lack of discipline" in the home! by the time we were through with her, she was transferred to teaching rhythmic movement to 3 yr-olds, where hopefully she won't do too much more damage.

[Qabalarina]

This is really interesting.

I'm constantly amazed by the sheer brilliance of my own education, in light of the stories I hear other people tell.

I graudated from high school in 1994 at 17. I finished college in 1997 at 20. I finished graduate school at 22. Education has always been of primary importance in my life and I'm not sure it would have been had I not received the level of education that I did.

Now, I did attend private school for a large portion of my primary and secondary education. One of the schools I went to is one of the highest rated in the country. *However*, I went from that school to a public high school for my junior and senior year, and while I cant honestly say that education was every bit as good as the education IR eceived in private school, I was well-learned.

I too was one of those kids who was always bored in school--not because I Was bored with the material, but because I would finish my assignments quickly. I intuitively understoood damn near everything I was ever taught (save geometery, whch I still dont understand) and still I managed to fins something in each class to occupy my attention. I was also apparently very lucky in that I had teacher who *recognized* that my boredom was due to my need to be challenged, and so they challenged me. They gave me longer, more difficult books to read. They asked me questions they didn't ask other students. They *expected* more from me becuase they knew I was capable of giving more. And for that I am grateful.

So the system worked for me. Public education definitely served my needs. As an advanced student in a public school, I was enrolled in AP and honors courses, while being granted the freedom to express myself artistically through choir and visual art classes.

So the system doesn't fail everywhere.

Part of the problem is funding. PArt of the problem is community involvement. PArt of the problem is not enthralling children with knowledge at an early age (and parents, thats YOUR job! An dyes, I am a mother too). Part of the problem is that qualified, respectable people often don't want to teach because we don't pay them well, and we don't *respect* them enough.

The biggest problem with public education is that it does have to cater to tha majority--and the majority of Americans are not particularly bright. They're not dumb--but there is something to be said for the "average" student. And when you cater to C students, sometimes the bright ones slip through the cracks. But if the school in question cannot cater to these students due to lack of resources and materials, then its up to the individual teacher and parent to challenge these students.

I recognize that this is hard when parents work. It's very difficult indeed. But having a child is an 18 year commitment to their mental, physical, emotional growth--and you *have to make time for that*. And in my opinion, being a teacher is a similar commitment. These 18 years that children live in our homes is *prime*--what they read, how they are challenged, how they are spoken to and what is expected of them lives with them for a good deal of the rest of their lives.

Education alone is not the problem, of course. We live in a holistic system where *many* facotrs contribute to the degradation of the education system. Economics, social values, gender roles, etc all play a big part in what happens to the quality of education of our children. SO the most important thing we can do, aside from doing whatever we can to supplment our children's education, is to be cognizent of the greater problems in our communities, and working to eradicate those problems. The healing of our communities is paramount for restructuring a healthy, challenging, fertile education system for our children.

[threenorns]

... brilliant!!!!

you are dead on the money -- that's one thing i've always had a big problem with: how too many parents disrespect the teacher ("excuse me!? who are YOU to talk to me about MY kid!?") and therefore teach their kids to disrespect the teacher.

since the teacher is one of the very first outside authoritative figures children meet, it therefore stand to reason that they will disrespect other authority figures (police, security guards, judges, shopowners, etc). they grow up with this "nyah, nyah -- you're not my mom (or dad)!" attitude and their parents shrug and say
"never could do a thing with that kid -- oh well, he'll learn once he hits the REAL world!".

what i want to know is, why wasn't the child RAISED in the "real world" from the beginning -- and that includes "you listen when the teacher is speaking!" (although that goes hand-in-glove with the teacher making sure that what he or she is saying is interesting to listen to!).

[Myst]

Qabalarina : Brilliant response. Absolutely what I feel, and worded so wonderfully too :)

threenorns : I totally agree with you on that last post. When I was in school it was made well known that if I got in trouble for sassing the teacher or principal or otherwise misbehaved I'd be smartly punished at home as well. I was also taught that authority figures all deserve your respect until they prove otherwise. So I think old fashioned values and teachings at home would make a huge difference as well.

Not only should parents not be rude to the teacher in front of the child, they should make an extra effort to meet with the teachers of a school and visit the school. I think it is very important that a parent takes the time to meet teachers and staff members, and continues to work with them to help the child receive the best education possible.

[threenorns]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
Ok, found it.

"In Ontario, all permanent residents between the ages of 6 and 16 must attend school." - http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/elemsec/es_overview.html

Hm that's on the Ministry of Education site for Ontario, so I think it would be true for Ontario schools...?


that was from the overview (the same one that says teachers are responsible for "supervising students behaviour and maintaining classroom discipline" and "encouraging students in their studies and evaluating student work and progress".

"Generally speaking, attendance is compulsory between the ages of 6 and 16. " is what it says further on, which kind of indicates that "in general" attendance is compulsory, but in FACT -- it's not (or, like i said, homeschooling would be illegal).

this is from the statement to the legislature by the minister of education (http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/document/nr/01.04/st0426a.html):

<blockquote>
"However, we also respect that some parents choose to educate their children at home.

To assist these children in getting the educational supports they need:

We will eliminate the institutional bias against home schooling. The Ministry of Education will facilitate home school parents' access to standard tests and other learning tools. "</blockquote>

which kind of gives the lie to "compulsory school attendance".

[Myst]

Again, school attendance does not necessarily require that a child go to a school. Attendance, by definition, means "to pay attention to".... soooo... saying students must attend school is not saying they can't attend homeschool :)

[threenorns]

.,... i really must apologive, but that sounds like hair-splitting to me, and i must disagree with your interpretation of "to pay attention to".

in common language (which the site is written in), "to attend" means "to go to" -- okay, fine, it's from the french word "attendre" ("to listen"), but that doesn't mean we use it the same way. when one says one attended a concert, we don't assume they sat home and listened to it on the radio -- we KNOW they physically went to the concert venue.

when teachers speak of school "attendance", they're not talking about kids sitting outside the window and eavesdropping: they're talking about bodies in the classroom. if they were actually talking about who's paying attention, then the attendance number would be drastically lower.

when we get letters from the school complaining about our kids' failing to attend class, we know it means the kid never showed up, not that he or she wasn't listening.


therefore, "must attend school" means "must physically be present in a course of instruction under the aegis of a recognized educational institute approved by the ministry of education" (to use my own jargon).

[Myst]

Originally posted by threenorns
therefore, "must attend school" means "must physically be present in a course of instruction under the aegis of a recognized educational institute approved by the ministry of education" (to use my own jargon).

Since they've said that students must attend, and since homeschooling is legal.. I'm going to have to presume they mean attend as in "must physically be present in a course of instruction under the aegis of a recognized educational institution approved by the ministry of education" assuming that homeschool is considered to be under the auspices of and guide by the ministry of education. Yes it does indicate a physical presence in a class, no it doesn't indicate that class has to be outside the home.

Now I'm afraid I've forgotten why we were discussing that.. so.. where were we :)

[pilvikki]

:rolleyes:
boy, i did ask for opinions....
and i got them!!!!

thnx!

:)

[Myst]

If nothing else, opinion is something of which I have plenty :)

[pilvikki]

no kidding!

lol!

[threenorns]

Originally posted by Willow Raven


Since they've said that students must attend, and since homeschooling is legal.. I'm going to have to presume they mean attend as in "must physically be present in a course of instruction under the aegis of a recognized educational institution approved by the ministry of education" assuming that homeschool is considered to be under the auspices of and guide by the ministry of education. Yes it does indicate a physical presence in a class, no it doesn't indicate that class has to be outside the home.

Now I'm afraid I've forgotten why we were discussing that.. so.. where were we :)

you were splitting hairs on the word "attend" because i stated that there is NO LAW saying that children must attend school -- only that they meet their educational milestones (which are determined by the min of ed).

in other words, you neatly proved my point.

thanks!

[pilvikki]

how timely.

i was just helping my youngest with her english homework. she's 30 and taking an english course, which she apparently needs.

.....because she doesn't know the damn difference between a verb, a noun, a pronoun, adverb, nothing!

"WHY? WHY?" i cry tearing my hair out.
"oh, we didn't do grammar since grade 9, i think. now, about these predicate verbs...."
predicate verbs? i thinx you'd better talk to your big sister. very nicely.
:(

[Myst]

We had the same problem when we had a highschool english class (I think it was in grade 11) wherein the teacher learned we hadn't had grammar in primary school at all. Boy was he mad..

Oh, for interest's sake, I was taking my definition of attend from a dictionary. Just so we all know I wasn't making it up.

at·tend (-tnd)
v. at·tend·ed, at·tend·ing, at·tends
v. tr.
To be present at: attended class.
To accompany as a circumstance or follow as a result: The speech was attended by wild applause.

To accompany or wait upon as a companion or servant.
To take care of (a sick person, for example). See Synonyms at tend2.
To take charge of: They attended our affairs during our absence.
To listen to; heed: attended my every word.
Archaic. To wait for; expect.

v. intr.
To be present.
To take care; give attention: We'll attend to that problem later.
To apply or direct oneself: attended to their business.
To pay attention: attended disinterestedly to the debate.
To remain ready to serve; wait.
Obsolete. To delay or wait.

So as you can see, it means "to pay attention", "to listen to", and "to heed" as well as "to be present", it doesn't mean "to be present at something outside your home". Thus, "to be present" could indicate to be present in a class inside the home, not necessarily outside of it.

(from Old French and Latin words meaning "to heed"

http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=attend ).

So does anyone else have comments to share about the topic or should we just continue arguing terminology ;)

[pilvikki]

yes, being an opinionated old bat, i do have a comment:

start a new thread for terminology, this was supposed to be opinions, not techincal hair/hare splitting, remember?

so: any opinions on courses over the net? personally i love them! perfect for someone with the attentionspan of a goldfish.

[Myst]

hehe pilvikki

Right on, yes ma'am! :)

Online courses can be especially fascinating for those who have access to a computer but not a car. There's something to be said about self teaching as well.... especially in the IT field.. plus there are lots of sites online for homeschooling - truly the www has become an invaluable tool for students and teachers!

[threenorns]

online teaching!!!???? where!!!!? where!!!???? just point me in the right direction -- i'll find it!!!

btw: i looooooooooooooooooove learning-- i'm working toward my high school diploma through min of ed correspondence courses. i also took a computer tech course through the internet which filled in a few gaps from when i was at devry. just finished "attending" (actually "teaching" is more like it) a course at college boréal, and i taught at canadore college (english, math, and computer literacy) three years ago (again, when i was supposed to be a student).

[Myst]

online teaching? Hm I was referring to resources like homeschooling stuff, etc. They can very good even for supplementing regular education... I'm sure I had links on this somewhere... :)