Responce to "Is Satanism Pagan"

[BlueWinter]

Satanism is not Pagan.

A Pagan is defined as a polytheist, or someone who is not an xtian, muslim, or jew(but this isn't always true.)
For instance, Hinduism is not considered a pagan religion, even though they worship multiple deities.

Satanism is really just another xtian sect, just like the catholic and protestant faiths.

Even if a Satanist did worship Pagan deities it would still not make them pagan. Just as xtians worship the virgin mary, jaysus, the devil, and yahweh, but consider themselves monotheist. Therefore, Satanism being an offshoot of xtianity would also be considered a monotheism.

Satanism does not originate from the same source as the Western Mystery Tradition. Satanist believing that witchcraft is of the devil, simply took the rituals and bits of philosophy, and added a satanic twist. Which accounts for the similarities.

Like Lucifereans who call themselves "pagan". But when you talk to them you find out that they worship "Lucifer the god of light - and the most beautiful of the fallen angels" which is NOT a Pagan God, but an xtian demonisation of Diana's consort Lucifer.

The reason satanic ethics are completely different from their xtian counterparts, is because satanism is the negation of xtianity.

i.e. If an xtian said the sky was blue, a satanist would say it was RED.

There was no historical satanism. When xtians spoke of people worshipping the devil in the bible, they were speaking of Pagans and not actual satanist.

So Anton Levay didn't invent "modern" satanism, because there was never an "old" satanism.

And it does matter if they are viewed as pagan, because it is a completely different doctrine.

Satan was invented by the early xtians, to scare people into converting. And making a belief system/religion out of said character is, in my opinion, ridiculous at best.


~Tara

Tha Tara luach agus trang dol a' ruith.

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
Satanism is not Pagan.


Satanism is really just another xtian sect, just like the catholic and protestant faiths.



Tha Tara luach agus trang dol a' ruith.

Satanism is not just another Christian sect. It never was, it never will be be.

In as much is satanism is not part of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim religions, it is pagan by definition.

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by EasternPriest

Satanism is not just another Christian sect. It never was, it never will be be.

In as much is satanism is not part of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim religions, it is pagan by definition.


You would say that, being an xtian.


~Tara

[Spirahl]

I would say the same thing, and I am not Christian...
I find your comment to EP quite rude and personally insulting.

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Spirahl
I would say the same thing, and I am not Christian...
I find your comment to EP quite rude and personally insulting.


I didn't mean anything by it. I was just saying most xtians view all pagans as satanist, so it's not surprising EP views satanists as pagan.


~Tara

[Lilu]

Satanism is not Pagan.

This is your opinion.

Stating an opinion as fact is not what happens at MysticWicks and there have been enough arguments (and no definite conclusions) as to the validity of that statement as fact, that it really shouldn't be stated as such.

BB and welcome to MW
Lilu

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Lilu


This is your opinion.

Stating an opinion as fact is not what happens at MysticWicks and there have been enough arguments (and no definite conclusions) as to the validity of that statement as fact, that it really shouldn't be stated as such.

BB and welcome to MW
Lilu

Nothing wrong with a good argument. :)


~Tara

[MistOfTheSea86]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BlueWinter



You would say that, being an xtian.


~Tara [/QUOTI am sorry but I can not leave out this rude comment, I will ask you to apologize..."

[Myst]

Ok, I think it's already been stated elsewhere that Satanism is *NOT* necessarily based on the Christian Satan, but on the archetype of Satan as someone who doesn't bend to rules they don't feel appropriate or necessary.

Any deity can be a Pagan deity, and Pagans don't have to work with any deities. Thus the discussion of deities in this debate is somewhat moot. Deities have no bearing on the subject matter.

In it's strictest form, Pagans are defined as people who aren't Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Thus, according to this, Satanists are Pagan.

Even so, while some Satanists say they worship Satan to assume they all do is similar to assuming that all Pagans adhere to the Rede, or that all Christians think Pagans are Satanists. It is just simply not true, and it is erroneous to suggest it is.

[SpikesPet5150]

I must say, I agree with Tara's views. I don't think that Satanism is Pagan at all. It's like when people accuse me of worshipping Satan (and oh yes, it happens ALL the time). If I don't believe in the Christian God, why would I believe in the Christian Devil? And yes, I agree that not all Satanists worship the Christian Satan, but the ones I know do.

I don't think that we should adhere to the "In it's strictist form" deffinition. We of all people should know that you can't judge everything from it's name. Not all Pagans believe in the same thing, not all Wiccans believe in the same thing, not all X-tians believe in the same thing. To me, the deffinition of Wicca will be totally different than someone else. It's all in the interpretation.

"Satan was invented by the early xtians, to scare people into converting."

That's so weird.. my fiance and I were just dicussing this today on his lunch break.. you took the words right out of our mouths. And the mouths of the people who happened to be listening to our conversation. LOL :)
~Bree

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Willow Raven

"Ok, I think it's already been stated elsewhere that Satanism is *NOT* wnecessarily based on the Christian Satan,"

Satanism not based on "Satan"???
-That's a FAR stretch!

"Any deity can be a Pagan deity,"

No, only non-muslim/xtian/jewish deities can be termed Pagan.

"and Pagans don't have to work with any deities. Thus the discussion of deities in this debate is somewhat moot. Deities have no bearing on the subject matter."

If you're using "Pagan" as someone who practices magick, etc. that isn't the definition of Pagan. And yes Pagan does imply a polytheist, that's the most common definition.

"In it's strictest form, Pagans are defined as people who aren't Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Thus, according to this, Satanists are Pagan."

But, not all non-xtians/jews/muslims are considered Pagan. Buddhists, Shintoists, etc. are _not_ considered pagan, so that fact doesn't make Satanists Pagan.

"Even so, while some Satanists say they worship Satan to assume they all do is similar to assuming that all Pagans adhere to the Rede,"

I'm not assuming all Satanists worship Satan. I'm saying its based on the xtian "Satan".

"or that all Christians think Pagans are Satanists. It is just simply not true, and it is erroneous to suggest it is."

It is true that most xtians believe pagans, witches, and occultists to be satanist.


~Tara

[SimplyStrange]

I totally agree with Willow Raven.

And although Christians "worship" all the others such as the Virgin Mary, Jesus, and so forth, the religion can still be considered monotheism, because neither the Virgin Mary, Jesus, or Satan are considered gods. (As far as I know...and I was raised Christian :))

I learned somewhere that Satanists did not actually follow Satan, that they believed in indulgence in life...though I dunno if it's true or not...

Then again, someone's version of Satanism can be totally different than another person's...

[Kaylara]

Read the closed thread on Satanism... Where an actual Satanist answers many questions.

Kaylara

[loopy]

And yes Pagan does imply a polytheist, that's the most common definition.

Just because Pagan implies a polytheist, that's not to say that all Pagans are polytheistic. Some worship only the God, or only the Goddess, or don't work with any at all. And a lot adopt deities from different religions into Paganism-- it's the freedom of it that attracts a lot of people to it. Just because one worships a Christian figure doesn't mean they're not Pagan.

[SimplyStrange]

Originally posted by BlueWinter

"Ok, I think it's already been stated elsewhere that Satanism is *NOT* wnecessarily based on the Christian Satan,"

Satanism not based on "Satan"???
-That's a FAR stretch!



Yes this indeed, is true...though you may get different answers, not all Satans believe the same thing, just like not all Christians or Pagans believe the same thing...


"Any deity can be a Pagan deity,"

No, only non-muslim/xtian/jewish deities can be termed Pagan.

That may be true, but the worshipping of the single Christian or Muslim or Jewish god alone is what makes them termed Christian, Muslim or Jewish. For Pagans to believe in that one simple God would be defeating the purpose of calling oneself a polytheist. It was never said that one couldn't believe in the gods themselves, simply that it would not be "Pagan" to believe in only this one god.


"In it's strictest form, Pagans are defined as people who aren't Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. Thus, according to this, Satanists are Pagan."

But, not all non-xtians/jews/muslims are considered Pagan. Buddhists, Shintoists, etc. are _not_ considered pagan, so that fact doesn't make Satanists Pagan.

I have to agree with this here...I think that Pagans being defined specifically as people who aren't Christian, Muslim, or Jewish is absurd. That is just saying that all polytheistic religions are Pagan, which couldn't be further from the truth...


"Even so, while some Satanists say they worship Satan to assume they all do is similar to assuming that all Pagans adhere to the Rede,"

I'm not assuming all Satanists worship Satan. I'm saying its based on the xtian "Satan".

Again, I dunno if it is true or not, because I am not educated in the ways of Satanism, but I learned somewhere that Satanists did not deem themselves Satanists...that they simply believed in self-indulgence in life and not basing their lives on certain rules and such. But somewhere along the lines they were deemed Satanists somehow...dunno where exactly...


"or that all Christians think Pagans are Satanists. It is just simply not true, and it is erroneous to suggest it is."

It is true that most xtians believe pagans, witches, and occultists to be satanist.


Not to point fingers, or be rude, but this has definately become the Christian stereotype. Saying that you are sick of being stereotyped by people calling Pagans mostly Satanists, seems a bit hipocritical to stereotype Christians by saying they are mostly anti-occultist...

[Lucidia]

this is a wasteful argument.

satanists don't CARE if you think they're pagan.

i would suggest that anyone interested in what satanists ACTUALLY believe, go to either www.churchofsatan.com or www.churchofsatan.org (the lavey based CoS and the slightly more focused FCoS... First Church of Satan).

I'm not the best authority, but my husband is a satanic priest.

I assure you, satanists and "devil worshippers" are very different.

willow raven is correct, satanists follow the "example" of a possibly "fictional" "character" in a "book". they don't even, in all cases, believe that god or satan exist.

If the bible had never existed, and another "story" had been told, with a similar "character", it is very likely that there might be -insert random satan like character here -ists running around instead.

opinions are welcome, as long as they aren't stated as "facts"

take kaylara's advice and read the thread. from what she expessed, there was an ACTUAL satanist (surprising actually, dont' know why a satanist would really argue this point, as it's pretty pointless) answering questions. then again, people hardly gave her a chance to explain herself.

anyways... lets keep this friendly people. read the stuck thread if you dont' understand the guidelines of this forum.

[Myst]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
"Ok, I think it's already been stated elsewhere that Satanism is *NOT* necessarily based on the Christian Satan,"

Satanism not based on "Satan"???
-That's a FAR stretch!

To that, I say, read the other threads on the topic and see what actual Satanists have said about it.


Originally posted by BlueWinter
"Any deity can be a Pagan deity,"

No, only non-muslim/xtian/jewish deities can be termed Pagan.


No. Any deity can be Pagan. There are Christian Pagans out there, including myself at one time. :)


Originally posted by BlueWinter
If you're using "Pagan" as someone who practices magick, etc. that isn't the definition of Pagan. And yes Pagan does imply a polytheist, that's the most common definition.

That's your opinion, and not necessarily the truth. I don't worship any deities. There are those who only work with the Goddess (Dianic), and those who only feel an affinity to a particular God or Goddess at any given time. One of the greatest things about Paganism is it's flexibility, it doesn't imply the need for any God.


Originally posted by BlueWinter
But, not all non-xtians/jews/muslims are considered Pagan. Buddhists, Shintoists, etc. are _not_ considered pagan, so that fact doesn't make Satanists Pagan.


Again, your opinion. I in fact consider them Pagan, as do several Pagans I know.


Originally posted by BlueWinter
I'm not assuming all Satanists worship Satan. I'm saying its based on the xtian "Satan".
...
It is true that most xtians believe pagans, witches, and occultists to be satanist.


Being based on a (possibly fictional) character doesn't indicate one can't be Pagan - if it did, one could state that since we can't prove Greek/Roman, and Italian Gods existed Hellenic Pagans and Strega are not Pagan.

And it is *not* true that most Christians believe that. Personally, I don't know anyone who does. Even if it *did*, that gives you no more right to base your presumptions on it then it does for anyone else to suggest that since most Pagans in their area work with Satan they can presume all do.

The truth is no broad assumption can be made about Paganism - not that it's polytheistic, not that all Pagans follow the Rede, nor any other classification. Any classification imposed to that end lies on the end of the speaker, and doesn't provide the truth or basis of any other person's beliefs.

This is all in my opinion, based on my experiences and research. In short, if you want to say Satanists are Pagans, go ahead. If you want to say they aren't, that's your opinion, so go ahead. In either case, try to be open to other's realities. And if you think the Satanists care if you think they're Pagan.. well.. :)

[SimplyStrange]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
This is all in my opinion, based on my experiences and research. In short, if you want to say Satanists are Pagans, go ahead. If you want to say they aren't, that's your opinion, so go ahead. In either case, try to be open to other's realities. And if you think the Satanists care if you think they're Pagan.. well.. :)

I totally agree with Willow Raven here. It's always great to find someone who shares the same views and who words sentences better than you :D.

That's my only problem here, when discussing I sometimes word my sentences wrong. So if you see anything that may look bizarrely based on fact, it's most likely a slip up...

[Qabalarina]

No, only non-muslim/xtian/jewish deities can be termed Pagan.

ERrrrr...I beg to differ.

First of all--I don't think you can apply any such label to the Divine. To say a certain GOd is pagan or non-pagan is ludicrous. Gods are Gods--they don't fall victim to our arbitrary assignment of labels that mean vastly different things to different people.

That said, I am Pagan. If you were to ask me which God most closely resembles my vision of Deity, I'd say the Jewish God. That's because my religious title hasn't got much to do with my view of Deity, but has everything to do with how I relate to that Deity, how I relate to those around me, how I lead my life. My vision of Deity is highly monotheist--and yet I am very much a pagan.

Some of you need to remember that the word "pagan" is almost a useless term, as everyone seems to have their own idea about what this word means. So saying "such-and-such is pagan by definition" is almost comical. Pagan by whose definition?

[SpikesPet5150]

"And it is *not* true that most Christians believe that. Personally, I don't know anyone who does. "

Ok, first off, this is NOT a bash.. just a response.

Where do you live? I would love to live there. At *least* once a week, someone sees my pentacle and assumes I worship Satan. They all believe they have to save my soul. I think it's crap. I find it very offensive. I don't care *who* they think I worship.. what I care about is they assume it's "evil" and they take on the horrific responsibility of "saving" me. I am sick and tired of *these* X-tians (not all, believe me, NOT all) pushing their religious views on me. If they would just do a little research, or get to know me, before they pass their judgement on me, we wouldn't have this problem. Or if they would just keep their mouths shut, as I do, we would get along just fine. It bothers me even more when the Jehovas Witnesses come to my home. These are perfect strangers who assume I want their religious advice. I would feel the same as if, say, I was pregnant and some woman wanted to press her advice on me about it. These are personal issues that most people don't want to discuss with strangers... why can't people see that?

I won't even do the whole "this is my opinion" disclaimer here, because it isn't just an opinion.. this happens to me, ALL THE TIME. So, to me, it is fact.
~Bree

[Myst]

My advice, then, is move or stop wearing your pentacle.

Is that fair? Is it right? Nope, probably not, but it will solve your problem. *shrug* I mean, I can understand why it angers you, but it's easier to change yourself rather then others... Just a suggestion... and I know people won't agree with it :)

I live in Ontario, Canada, wear my pentacle to work, school, and in public, and have never had anyone harass me. The worst I got was a classmate saying "does that mean you worship Satan?" and I said "nope", and then we had a cool discussion during break about what Paganism really is.....

and back to the topic at end, again, this is no reason to treat all Christians (or JW's) like they all feel that way. They just don't all feel that way, and that's a fact. Just like not all Pagans worship Satan (although, to be sure, some people will call themself a Satanic Witch when we might disagree)...

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Kaylara
Read the closed thread on Satanism... Where an actual Satanist answers many questions.

Kaylara

That's what I'm responding to.


~Tara

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Willow Raven

<snip>
No. Any deity can be Pagan. There are Christian Pagans out there, including myself at one time. :)


I'm talking terminology here.

You can't take a word and bend it to mean whatever you want it to mean.

e.g. You cannot be a "Christian Pagan"

Why?

Because by being "Pagan" you are NOT "Christian", ask any Reverend, Priest, etc.


~Tara

[loopy]

Originally posted by BlueWinter


I'm talking terminology here.

You can't take a word and bend it to mean whatever you want it to mean.

e.g. You cannot be a "Christian Pagan"

Why?

Because by being "Pagan" you are NOT "Christian", ask any Reverend, Priest, etc.


~Tara

Just because the dictionary says one thing doesn't mean diddly. :) Paganism embodies so many different belief systems. If you asked a Reverend or Priest at one time, they would have told you that Witches should be burned at the stake; doesn't mean they were right.

Also, the whole "Can Christians be Pagans" thing has been discussed, and we've had members who were Christian Pagans, so I wouldn't say they can't exist, because they do.

[Myst]

Ahhhh, so the definition in the dictionary of Paganism is wrong, but otherwise one can't bend words to their own meaning and must turn to such a source for answers..... I see....

You can mix any religion with Paganism, and choose any deities to work with, including Jesus and Mary, which several Pagans do. I suggest you look into Roman Catholicism and it's concentration both on Jesus *and* Mary... such as that at http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/Catholicism/catholic.htm and http://www.twpt.com/christianpagan.htm (from the TWPT)... http://www.catholic.com/ANSWERS/tracts/paganism.htm on whether Catholicism is Pagan, http://www.spiralgoddess.com/Pagan101.html for an opinion on whether you can be a Christian Pagan, and also shares an opinion on whether Satanists are Pagan, and the difference between Satanists and devil-worshippers.... et cetera.. A quick web search will bring up several sites with differing opinions from your own. To suggest they are all invalid is as wrong as those Christians and other people who *do* believe that you can't be Pagan because you don't worship Satan. It really is a bit of a double standard.

[SpikesPet5150]

I don't get it. I just don't understand how you can be a Christian Pagan. When I read the bible (well, ok, the many times I read it), I got that witchcraft is evil and if you're a part of witchcraft, you too, are evil and are damned to hell. Wouldn't that be hypocritical to say you're a Christian Pagan then? Maybe I just don't understand the basics of it.. but just from reading the bible, wouldn't you be condemning yourself to "hell" since you believe in witchcraft? Don't think I'm being mean, cause I'm really not trying to be, I just don't get it. Someone explain, please.
~Bree

[Myst]

Originally posted by SpikesPet5150
I don't get it. I just don't understand how you can be a Christian Pagan. When I read the bible (well, ok, the many times I read it), I got that witchcraft is evil and if you're a part of witchcraft, you too, are evil and are damned to hell. Wouldn't that be hypocritical to say you're a Christian Pagan then? Maybe I just don't understand the basics of it.. but just from reading the bible, wouldn't you be condemning yourself to "hell" since you believe in witchcraft? Don't think I'm being mean, cause I'm really not trying to be, I just don't get it. Someone explain, please.
~Bree

Ok, first off, it is believed that only the newer version refers to the Witch as "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". Originally where you see Witch there was the word "poisoner" instead, and this was changed when King James came along. Christian Paganism usually doesn't rely on the Bible, so it doesn't really matter what the Bible says (to those people). In general, a Christian Pagan may work with Christian Gods and/or may go to church, or follow the 10 commandments, etc. As usual, the practice is totally up to the practitioner, and to assume it can't be done is not to prove that it hasn't. I don't think it says in the bible "if you don't follow everything written here and live your life by all of it you will go to hell", and even so, some Christian Pagans don't believe in hell in it's common concept. For instance, when I was making the transition, I realized that I thought the Christian God was all loving and forgiving, and that if I had truly found the wrong path I would apologize and he would forgive and love me anyway. This was after a dream I had about Jesus and Judgement, and is just my personal belief. If you read up on some of the links I've shared you'll get more information. Especially the ones on Roman Catholicism...

But we're getting off topic here :)

[loopy]

Originally posted by SpikesPet5150
I don't get it. I just don't understand how you can be a Christian Pagan. When I read the bible (well, ok, the many times I read it), I got that witchcraft is evil and if you're a part of witchcraft, you too, are evil and are damned to hell. Wouldn't that be hypocritical to say you're a Christian Pagan then? Maybe I just don't understand the basics of it.. but just from reading the bible, wouldn't you be condemning yourself to "hell" since you believe in witchcraft? Don't think I'm being mean, cause I'm really not trying to be, I just don't get it. Someone explain, please.
~Bree

Here's a thread that might help. http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2796&highlight=christian+wicca

I couldn't find the original one, but this is a discussion about Wicca/Christians.

[Myst]

In that thread I most appreciate Raevyn's last post :)

[BlueWinter]

To Willow Raven


I'm not saying you can't believe in the Virgin Mary and a Pagan deity. I'm saying you can't call yourself a "Christian Pagan", its an oxymoron.

I'm talking about the "term" and not the actual practice.

So, instead of calling a belief system 2 words that contradict each other, make a new name.

(And yes, I know a lot of people consider themselves Christian-Pagans.)

The two words have their own set meanings, so you can't just come along and say "from now on a Pagan can be considered a Christian."


~Tara

[loopy]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
The two words have their own set meanings, so you can't just come along and say "from now on a Pagan can be considered a Christian."


~Tara

You can't; other people have no problem with it. So let them call themselves whatever they want; you telling them they're wrong isn't going to change their thoughts about their beliefs, or their label. :)

[BlueWinter]

Let me put it this way.

Someone says:

"I'm an Asatruar, but I _don't_ believe in the Norse Gods."

That person would not be an "Asatruar", because an Asatruar by definition is someone who worships the Norse Gods. And that person should find a term that adequately defines their belief system, instead of misusing the word "Asatruar".


~Tara


Originally posted by loopy


Just because the dictionary says one thing doesn't mean diddly. :) Paganism embodies so many different belief systems. If you asked a Reverend or Priest at one time, they would have told you that Witches should be burned at the stake; doesn't mean they were right.

Also, the whole "Can Christians be Pagans" thing has been discussed, and we've had members who were Christian Pagans, so I wouldn't say they can't exist, because they do.

[BlueWinter]

"Originally posted by loopy
You can't; other people have no problem with it."

I think they should familiarise themselves with something called the English Language.

"So let them call themselves whatever they want; you telling them they're wrong isn't going to change their thoughts about their beliefs, or their label. :)"

I know they won't change their label, I'm just trying to bring it to their attention.


~Tara

[loopy]

Ok. But it's not exactly the same. It's not like saying, "I'm a Pagan, but I don't believe in any aspects of Paganism"-- and since when are there set aspects anyway?-- it's more like, "I'm a Pagan, _and_ I worship a Christian deity," or "I incorporate Christian practices into my everyday life." Since when do Pagans exclude anyway?

All I'm saying is, Paganism is a term with a lot of room for flexibility. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under will." Who cares if someone classifies themself as a Pagan, but you don't believe them to be in the strictest technical sense of the definition that you adhere to? As long as they're happy, what exactly does it matter?

And definitions-wise, once a Pagan was classified as "devil-worshipper." Does that mean that all Pagans today who don't worship the devil aren't really Pagans? Dictionaries and labels are stupid things that change with time. If the core feeling is there-- if it makes a person feel complete to say, "I'm a Pagan" or "I'm a Christian and a Pagan" or "I'm a Satanist and a Pagan," then who is anyone to deny them their faith?

[loopy]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
<snip>

I know they won't change their label, I'm just trying to bring it to their attention.


~Tara

But WHY? To make them question themselves? :confused: To relabel themselves to give you peace of mind that the English language is safe and proper forever and here, so mote it be? :)

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by BlueWinter



You would say that, being an xtian.


~Tara

First, I'm a Christian, not an xtian. I worship Christ, not X.

Second, That's what the dictionary says, not me.

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by BlueWinter



I didn't mean anything by it. I was just saying most xtians view all pagans as satanist, so it's not surprising EP views satanists as pagan.


~Tara

That's a fairly broad statement to make as a fact.

[loopy]

Originally posted by EasternPriest


That's a fairly broad statement to make as a fact.

Also, it's one thing to say that Satanists are Pagan, it's another to say that all Pagans are Satanists. :)

[BlueWinter]

"[QUOTE]Originally posted by EasternPriest
First, I'm a Christian, not an xtian. I worship Christ, not X."

hahahaha!

Sorry.

"Second, That's what the dictionary says, not me."

I said in another post that non-xtian does not mean pagan.

Because there are many non-xtian/muslim/jewish religions that aren't considered pagan. So a religion would have to accept basic pagan beliefs, and its followers would have to deem themselves "Pagan" to be a pagan religion.


~Tara

[Myst]

Words mean nothing by themselves, ie. without beliefs behind them. So to say "I'm discussing terminology" and expect that that will make a difference because you're referring to the language itself and not the meaning beyond it. If I were to tell you right now that a keyboard is a space ship would that mean it is? No, not really. You would say it's not, yet in my opinion it might be. My opinion is not the be all, or end all, nor does it mean that a keyboard is absolutely not a computer part.... Some people believe Pagan means "an animal sacrificer that worships Satan". Does that make it so? No. Just like you saying "a Pagan *can't* be a Christian" doesn't mean I can't be a Christian Pagan. I think the point here is that no one has the right to deny anyone's beliefs, regardless of what their favourite dictionary might say... which is a good thing, since many popular dictionaries suggest a witch is a hag with magickal powers given by the devil... we know that to be untrue don't we?

Further, a Pagan is NOT by definition someone who doesn't work with Jehovah. I'm afraid you won't find that in a dictionary either. So calling someone a Christian Pagan isn't a false statement according to the definitions involved at all.

People create their own labels and lend their own meanings to them. There are no specific rules when it comes to Paganism, period. Whether yours or someone else's, the rules depend on the practioner. You simply cannot assume your own meanings are universally accepted or absolutely true, period.

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by loopy


Also, it's one thing to say that Satanists are Pagan, it's another to say that all Pagans are Satanists. :)

I was saying that most of the xtians I've met consider witchcraft/occultism/etc. to be evil and demonic.


~Tara


No rest for the Wicked.

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
[BI said in another post that non-xtian does not mean pagan.

~Tara [/B]

Yes, you said that; but it doesn't make it so because you said so.

[loopy]

Originally posted by BlueWinter


I was saying that most of the xtians I've met consider witchcraft/occultism/etc. to be evil and demonic.


~Tara


No rest for the Wicked.

Ah. I think you left out that "I met" the first few times you said it. :)

[BlueWinter]

"[QUOTE]Originally posted by loopy
But WHY? To make them question themselves? :confused: To relabel themselves to give"

It wasn't a PROPER label to begin with.

"you peace of mind that the English
language is safe and proper forever and here, so mote it be? :)"


Um, yes. :)


~Tara


"Tha an cu ban luach"

[Myst]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
"[QUOTE]Originally posted by loopy
But WHY? To make them question themselves? :confused: To relabel themselves to give"

It wasn't a PROPER label to begin with.

"you peace of mind that the English
language is safe and proper forever and here, so mote it be? :)"


Um, yes. :)


According to who? You? Who appointed you to make the rules exactly? According to some people it is a proper label, in fact according to almost everyone in this thread save yourself and one other person... :) :)

[loopy]

Doesn't matter if it wasn't proper to begin with; it was theirs. :) And you have no right to take it. :)


Um, yes. :)

Ok, then. :) You're probably going to want to accept sooner or later then that not everybody feels as passionately about the English language as you do. And you're not going to be able to change a lot of minds towards your way of thinking. And your way of thinking is not the FINAL Way.

So just live with your way, and let others live theirs. It's the only way mankind is going to survive.

[SpikesPet5150]

"My advice, then, is move or stop wearing your pentacle.

Is that fair? Is it right? Nope, probably not, but it will solve your problem. *shrug* I mean, I can understand why it angers you, but it's easier to change yourself rather then others... Just a suggestion... and I know people won't agree with it."


You're right, people (well.. prolly just me) won't agree with it. I am not ashamed of who I am and what I believe. I am not going to change myself because people are misinformed.

And I guess it doesn't really anger me as much as sadden me. It's sad that people judge others without getting the whole story. Alot of my old friends stopped being my friend simply because of my religion. Yes, I miss them.. but with the way I think, screw em. If they don't wanna be my friend, thats more than fine with me.

This wasn't supposed to be a "oh life is so unfair to me" kind of post. It was supposed to show that, yes, alot of Christians do judge Wiccans and Pagans as devil worshippers.
~Bree

[SpikesPet5150]

"According to some people it is a proper label, in fact according to almost everyone in this thread save yourself and one other person... "

And that makes her opinion less valid because only ONE other person (I'm assuming thats me) agrees with her? Nope, sorry.. can't say I agree with that.
~Bree

[Myst]

Originally posted by SpikesPet5150
"According to some people it is a proper label, in fact according to almost everyone in this thread save yourself and one other person... "

And that makes her opinion less valid because only ONE other person (I'm assuming thats me) agrees with her? Nope, sorry.. can't say I agree with that.
~Bree

This response makes me laugh. My point was to show that one opinion does not negate all the rest, and your response is to ask if I meant that my opinion or that of most of the other people negates hers. To state it more simply - hell no. My point is whether anyone thinks a Satanist can't be a Pagan or not doesn't mean they absolutely can't be.

And on the other post, a lot of people persecute, not just Christians. I could go into the definitions of Christian according to various people and question whether certain people are Christian but really it's beyond the realm of this thread entirely. Again, to assume "most Christians" do is like assuming "most Pagans" cast hexes....

And finally, I'm not saying people who don't wear their pentacles are "ashamed". I didn't wear my pentacle at work for awhile not because I was ashamed but because I knew it might invite problems and my work wasn't the place for religious arguments :)

[loopy]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
Again, to assume "most Christians" do is like assuming "most Pagans" cast hexes....

And it kind of reminds me of the statement, "All Pagans are devil worshippers"...

[Myst]

Originally posted by loopy


And it kind of reminds me of the statement, "All Pagans are devil worshippers"...

Hm, I don't suppose there's much difference between "most" and "all" huh?

[loopy]

Originally posted by Willow Raven


Hm, I don't suppose there's much difference between "most" and "all" huh?

Don't ask me; I'm not the language expert.

[BlueWinter]

"Originally posted by loopy
Ok. But it's not exactly the same. It's not like saying, "I'm a Pagan, but I don't believe in any aspects of Paganism"--
and since when are there set aspects anyway?--"

Since when? since the first pagans.

"it's more like, "I'm a Pagan, _and_ I worship a Christian deity," or "I incorporate Christian practices into my everyday life." Since when do Pagans exclude anyway?
All I'm saying is, Paganism is a term with a lot of room for flexibility."

No, you can't just take the term "pagan" and have it mean anything and everything under the Sun.

<snip>
"As long as they're happy, what exactly does it matter?"

It matters because it is a bastardisation of the word "pagan".

"And definitions-wise, once a Pagan was classified as "devil-worshipper." Does that mean that all Pagans today who don't worship the devil aren't really Pagans?"

No, because they didn't _actually_ worship the devil. And there were no devil worshippers at that time.

"Dictionaries and labels are stupid things that change with time."

Not at all, without the boundaries of word definition; we would be lost. Unable to communicate, unable to read, etc. Because one word would have 2 dozen meanings.

Yes, they change with "time" you don't force them to change.

"If the core feeling is there-- if it makes a person feel complete to say, "I'm a Pagan""

They can feel whatever they like, but use the correct word to describe it please.

"or "I'm a Christian and a Pagan" or "I'm a Satanist and a Pagan," then who is anyone to deny them their faith?"

I'm not denying them their faith.

-------
-To all

By the way, in the dictionary when they define a pagan as a polytheist or a godless person...

When they say "godless", they(the early xtians) were actually referring to the Polytheists. Because xtians considered them to be "godless". They weren't referring to sects of atheists and scientologists running around in togas. :)


~Tara

Tak aff yer dram.

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Willow Raven


According to who? You? Who appointed you to make the rules exactly? According to some people it is a proper label, in fact according to almost everyone in this thread save yourself and one other person... :) :)


Again, according to the English Language.

Just because I'm the only one who adheres by its rules, it doesn't mean the rules don't exist.


~Tara

[Myst]

Originally posted by BlueWinter

It matters because it is a bastardisation of the word "pagan".

..

Not at all, without the boundaries of word definition; we would be lost. Unable to communicate, unable to read, etc. Because one word would have 2 dozen meanings.

..

They can feel whatever they like, but use the correct word to describe it please.

..

I'm not denying them their faith.

..

When they say "godless", they(the early xtians) were actually referring to the Polytheists. Because xtians considered them to be "godless". They weren't referring to sects of atheists and scientologists running around in togas. :)


Have you checked your dictionary lately? Several words do have a dozen meanings. For instance,

pa·gan (pgn)
n.
1.One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2.One who has no religion.
3.A non-Christian.
4.A hedonist.
5.A Neo-Pagan.

adj.
6.Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
7.professing no religion; heathen.
9.Neo-Pagan.

From the American Heritage Dictionary. Well, wait, that's 9 definitions, not 2 dozen, but I think you see the point. And from Merriam Webster,

Pagan

1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

So, according to the meaning of the word Pagan, we as Pagans are not Christian, Muslim, or Jew, we have no religion, we're hedonists, neo-pagans, and we must follow a polytheistic religion as well as delight in sensual pleasures and material goods while being irreligious, hedonistic people...

Again, a word means nothing without the meanings ascribed to it. Which isn't to say that people shouldn't expect certain meanings aren't ascribed to certain words, but that the fact that ascribed meanings are not absolutely true. Thus, we are not necessarily people with little to no religion that delight in sensual pleasures and material goods. Language evolves over time in various ways, as indicated by this example definition in two dictionaries. Further, the meaning of a word can vary from person to person, and it does cause confusion (which is why some people will assume you are hedonistic if you mention you're Pagan), but that doesn't mean anyone has the authority to make absolute rules on communication, much less a dictionary. Call a keyboard a shoe, if it pleases you, whether it's linguistically correct has little to do with how well it can be communicated or what it means.

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by SpikesPet5150
"According to some people it is a proper label, in fact according to almost everyone in this thread save yourself and one other person... "

And that makes her opinion less valid because only ONE other person (I'm assuming thats me) agrees with her? Nope, sorry.. can't say I agree with that.
~Bree

Thanks Bree! :)


~Tara

[loopy]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
"Originally posted by loopy
Ok. But it's not exactly the same. It's not like saying, "I'm a Pagan, but I don't believe in any aspects of Paganism"--
and since when are there set aspects anyway?--"

Since when? since the first pagans.

And you know this because you *were* one of the first Pagans? i'm not trying to be rude; I'm just saying that I don't think I've ever heard anyone saying, "You can't be Pagan because you don't adhere to this definition" before today.


No, you can't just take the term "pagan" and have it mean anything and everything under the Sun.

Yes I can. If that's my belief. You saying I can't doesn't diminish the power behind my beliefs. LABELS are just that: LABELS. You could tell me that I'm not speaking proper English 'til you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change my beliefs.


<snip>
"As long as they're happy, what exactly does it matter?"

It matters because it is a bastardisation of the word "pagan".

According to YOUR definition, and the definition of that of some guy who typed up a dictionary.


No, because they didn't _actually_ worship the devil. And there were no devil worshippers at that time.

But the dictionary said it so!


Not at all, without the boundaries of word definition; we would be lost. Unable to communicate, unable to read, etc. Because one word would have 2 dozen meanings.

I never said they were useless, I just said they were stupid. When it comes to having to define who you are through a set of written words? Yeah, they're stupid.


Yes, they change with "time" you don't force them to change.

I disagree. Yes, they change with time, but they also change with force.


They can feel whatever they like, but use the correct word to describe it please.

Correct according to you. Who are you to tell them what is correct? Who is a dictionary to tell them?


I'm not denying them their faith.

Just the right to practice it under a certain name. Again, who are you to say that?

(I say "You" hypothetically; meaning, any person. I'm not trying to attack you, Blue)


-------
-To all

By the way, in the dictionary when they define a pagan as a polytheist or a godless person...

When they say "godless", they(the early xtians) were actually referring to the Polytheists. Because xtians considered them to be "godless". They weren't referring to sects of atheists and scientologists running around in togas. :)


~Tara

Tak aff yer dram. [/B]

Ahh, but the dictionary defines "godless" as Main Entry: god·less
Pronunciation: 'gäd-l&s also 'god-
Function: adjective
Date: 1528
: not acknowledging a deity or divine law
- god·less·ness noun

So technically, the word Pagan means godless as in that definition. But wait, you're saying that the definition for Pagan isn't exactly correct because early Christians didn't really think of Pagans as "not acknowledging a deity" just as polytheistic? Imagine that. The dictionary got it wrong.

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by loopy


Don't ask me; I'm not the language expert.

~Funny

[loopy]

Originally posted by BlueWinter


~Funny

Thank you.

[Qabalarina]

Hmm.

I think at some point, there ceases to be discussion. I don't think its possible to have a true duscission with BlueWinter on this point, becase s/he is unable to make any concessions. That's fine--but it makes for a very short "discussion". At this point, I"m not sure this is any more then directed monologues.

[Myst]

I was just considering that myself... unless anyone else has fresh opinions or ideas to share, I think we just have to agree to disagree.. :)

[Semele]

Originally posted by BlueWinter


I know they won't change their label, I'm just trying to bring it to their attention.


~Tara

WHY???

What difference does it make to you or your life? I see your point about the oxymoron, but then we have to find a new word for civilwar as well and many others. I personally think you need to familiarise yourself with the english language as well...look up the word tolorance.

[Lucidia]

<STEPS INTO MODERATOR MODE.

stay on topic please.

please refer to the mysticwicks rules, as well as the STUCK thread which contains some SUGGESTIONS on how we can keep our discussions focused and friendly.

Remember, FACTS are FACTS, and OPINIONS are OPINIONS. Please state them as such to avoid unecessary conflicts.

and I will give this information to you people ONE more time.

The Church of Satan (the one founded by Anton LaVey) has it's official website here: http://www.churchofsatan.com

The FIRST Church of Satan (believe me, they are quite different), which has a very in depth, and slightly humorous, FAQ on the site, can be found at http://www.churchofsatan.org

This discussion is a debate regarding whether SATANISM is PAGAN.

This is NOT an arena where you can all fight over who is right and wrong.

In order to make a TRULY informed decision on this topic, i HIGHLY RECOMMEND going to both websites, as well as referring to a dictionary (online or offline, i dont' care, some people posted definitions already) for the MEANING of PAGAN.

This thread is NOT called "are devil worshippers pagan".

Satanists are NOT Devil Worshippers.

I'm sorry if this bothers some of you, but it's the truth.

In closing, I have but one thing to say. Keep it on topic. If you want to dicuss something other than this topic, as a result of something to read here, please start a new thread, or take it up with the person(s) involved.

<end moderator mode.>

[Killer]

I don't consider Satanist Pagan at all. Most Satanist would say they don't worship Satan but man and doing whatever you want to do blah blah blah! What they believe in is really everything that's the opposite of Xianity which would in fact IMO make it part of the Xian religion. They're using the guidelines of xianity as the bases for their beliefs meaning whatever they (xians) believe in they(Satanist) rebel against.

Also, they use a xian name "Satan" to call themselves, now if they're not a part of Xianity why use a name they've got written all over their Bible? Satan rebelled against God so Satanist call themselves that because that's what they themselves do which makes them part of the xian religion.

And as for the "Xian pagan" There is no such thing, people who call themselves that are still stuck with Xian thinking that they will go to hell and so they try to hold on to the xian faith as a 'just in case' method. I don't care if xian pagans are offended by that, IMO there is no way to hold on to both beliefs without totally contridicting yourself. Old Bible/New Bible whatever, it's all the same.

Well that's it. Have a nice day.

[BlueWinter]

The christian "satan" doesn't belong in a "pagan" pantheon

The theology and mythology behind "Satan" is entirely separate from any "pagan" pantheon.

And associating paganism with satanism is terribly wrong, because they are incompatible.

A Satanist is a "renegade christian", and not a "pagan"

Satanists accept the xtian doctrine of "good and evil", pagans don't.

And satanism has nothing to do with ancient pagan religious values, such as the reverence of nature, and the sacredness of all life.


~Tara the Blue~

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Killer
They're using the guidelines of xianity as the bases for their beliefs meaning whatever they (xians) believe in they(Satanist) rebel against.

Also, they use a xian name "Satan" to call themselves, now if they're not a part of Xianity why use a name they've got written all over their Bible? Satan rebelled And as for the "Xian pagan" There is no such thing, people who call themselves that are still stuck with Xian thinking
<snips>
Well that's it. Have a nice day.

I agree entirely, "Killer"


~Tara the Blue~

[Lilu]

Actually, the REASON behind the use of the word Satan in Satanism is discussed in several of the other threads dealing with this exact topic. Perhaps you could all go and read those before dragging us all through the same debate yet AGAIN? :rolleyes:

Lilu

[Myst]

Thanks for the last few opinions, which look to have been shared without your even reading through the thread here to see that what you've stated has already been discussed and explained.

Perhaps since my beliefs on this are in disagreement of what you've said, my religion exists solely as a perversion of your own...?

I'll adhere to my own opinions, thanks.

Everybody have a nice day.

[BlueWinter]

(Wow, two on topic posts in a row.)

Here's an excerpt from a Satanist site.

SATANISM

http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm

"Satan in his original Pagan forms, or of the ancient Egyptian God Set, is respected, usually as as a principle rather than a deity."

Now clearly there are Satanist who believe Set, Pan, etc. to be another form of "Satan".

Now I would think this proves they are xtian and not actual "pagans".


~Tara the Blue~

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Lilu
Actually, the REASON behind the use of the word Satan in Satanism is discussed in several of the other threads dealing with this exact topic. Perhaps you could all go and read those before dragging us all through the same debate yet AGAIN? :rolleyes:

Lilu

I _did_ read it, all 9 pages of it. This is a responce to that thread.


Tara the Blue

[Myst]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
Now clearly there are Satanist who believe Set, Pan, etc. to be another form of "Satan".

Now I would think this proves they are xtian and not actual "pagans".


Pretty good, since most Christians won't say they think Satan is another form of Pan (ask EP, for example). Also pretty good since there are Christian Pagans (whether you think that's the correct terminology or not, there are Pagans who work with Christian deities). Even better since, while some Satanists may believe that or anything else, it doesn't mean all Satanists do. :)

[Qabalarina]

BlueWinter, you crack me the hell up.

I thought they stopped making fools years ago.

You've done a lot of talking and haven't said one damn thing that was accurate or even worth reading.

[Myst]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
SATANISM

http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm


Btw, this isn't a Satanist site. It's a site on religious tolerance that provides basic introductions to many different religions. Just to be clear :)

Let's check out the two Satanist websites Lucidia has shared (which she probably got from her husband, who is a Satanic priest, so probably has some idea what he's doing)... I think you will find, in particular, http://www.churchofsatan.org/faq.html (from the URL http://www.churchofsatan.org/ that Lucidia shared) , a VERY interesting read. It answers several of the questions posed and discussed here.

Please, if anyone else would like to respond, consider checking out that site and the other Lucidia mentioned ( http://www.churchofsatan.com/ ) and educate yourself so you can make an educated opinion. After all, aren't open mindedness and willingness to learn also Pagan principles :)

[Lucidia]

I could lose my job for reading this stuff all day, but i HAVE to keep up with it... so...

<STEPS INTO MOD MODE>

Qabalarina...


BlueWinter, you crack me the hell up.

I thought they stopped making fools years ago.

You've done a lot of talking and haven't said one damn thing that was accurate or even worth reading.

I am just gonna to warn you on this one... that was a pretty obvious insult/personal attack. No need to insult someones intelligence of judge their quantity of common sense simply because they choose to be argumentative. Please be a bit softer with your words...

If you were joking, or not serious.. please be more clear about that in the future.. because I personally would have been offended if you said that to me...

<STEPS OUT OF MOD MODE>

Now... BlueWinter... i'm sorry.. but just because satanists might
use some other examples of the "archtype" they follow (ie, pan, etc), This in NO way proves that they 'worship' or 'acknowledge' the existence of satan.

Opinion is Opinion, we all Interpret things differently.

I'm still wondering why we are ARGUING over such a silly topic though...

I'm happy to see things are getting back on topic, and focused... but i still see a LOT of animocity here... Try and be tolerant okay? No need to start getting angry/insulting/etc.

[Killer]

"Thanks for the last few opinions,"

You're welcome.

"which look to have been shared without your even reading through the thread here to see that what you've stated has already been
discussed and explained."

Yes I have read this thread, opinions have been offered by other people and not from me so I'm just offering my opinion on the subject.

"Perhaps since my beliefs on this are in disagreement of what you've said, my religion exists solely as a perversion of your own...?"

Actually you're "religion" is not really a religion it's just something that can't exist. So it's not a perversion of paganism. IMO, choosing two contridicting beliefs and trying to make them one is impossible, it's like believing the sky is falling and at the same time believing the sky can't fall. How can you make that make sense? Unless you believe the sky falls only sometimes, but then the sky doesn't fall now does it?

So your religion is not only nonexistant it's also impossible.

"I'll adhere to my own opinions, thanks. Everybody have a nice day."

I will too, Oh and Have a nice day too. :)

[loopy]

So your religion is not only nonexistant it's also impossible.

I'm sorry if this is a little OT, but this is... I mean, how can you tell someone their religion doesn't exist and is impossible?

You know, forget it. Qabalarina is right; this is going in circles and getting nowhere, and these posts are falling on blind eyes.

[BlueWinter]

"Originally posted by Qabalarina
BlueWinter, you crack me the hell up."

~I aim to please.

"I thought they stopped making fools years ago."

Obviously NOT, since you are here.

"You've done a lot of talking and haven't said one damn thing that was accurate or even worth reading."

They WHY bother respond????


-No rest!-

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by loopy

<snip>
You know, forget it. Qabalarina is right; this is going in circles and getting nowhere, and these posts are falling on blind eyes.

Exatly!

I'd like to talk to people who understand what I'm saying, you lot haven't a clue~

It's going in circles because I keep having to repeat myself, if only everyone would _think_ about what I'm saying I wouldn't have to.

And BTW Loopy you don't have to respond if you don't want to. :)


~Tara the Blue~

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Lucidia
Qabalarina...
I am just gonna to warn you on this one... that was a pretty obvious insult/personal attack. No need to insult someones intelligence of judge their quantity of common sense simply because they choose to be argumentative. Please be a bit softer with your words...

If you were joking, or not serious.. please be more clear about that in the future.. because I personally would have been offended if you said that to me...


:) I'm not offended, he can say what he likes.


~Tara the Blue~

[loopy]

Oh, Blue, Blue, Blue... can't you see that the problem isn't that we're not listening. I have personally heard every word you've said here. You, on the other hand, don't seem to be considering the points everyone is trying to make.

Ok. I get that you think we should all respect the English language, and follow some written definitions to a T. I also gather, from what you yourself have said, that the reason you think this is because you want everyone to contribute to your peace of mind. The world isn't living for you, though. Everybody lives for themselves.

I live by a strict policy of letting others live however they please. What I don't tolerate, and I admit this, is people preaching their way and refusing to accept that other people might have a way that works for them. Such as here, where you're saying that it's not acceptable for people to call themselves Pagan, or Pagan/Christan, or whatever they want to, because you and the dictionary don't consider them to be.

Personally, I don't understand how anyone can call themselves a Pagan and not follow one of the "rules" mentioned time and again-- We know our way isn't the ONLY way. We don't try and convert people-- Because a dictionary doesn't say so, "respect for others" is not a quality of a Pagan now?

I guess all I'm saying is, I understand what you're saying. I have been listening. I don't understand how one could be so adament about words and regulations, but I get that you are. I don't get why you're so concerned with what other people call themselves, instead of just what you call yourself, and what you live by.

As this has gotten OT (partly my fault, sorry) and it's been addressed that these questions have been run around time and again, I'll agree to disagree if you will, and we can go on living our merry little Mysticwicks lives. :)

And I keep responding because I'm a masochist. :p

[BlueWinter]

I read more articles on Satanism, including the Church of Satan - and it doesn't seem to even qualify for a religion at all, let alone a "Pagan" one. A more apt name would be "Cult of Fun"

Satanism Links
http://simon.crabtree.com/satanism/lnx.html


~Tara the Blue~

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by loopy
"Oh, Blue, Blue, Blue... can't you see that the problem isn't that we're not listening. I have personally heard every word you've said here. You, on the other hand, don't seem to be considering the points everyone is trying to make."

Personally, I blame all those "fluffy bunny" authors, and their spiritual free-for-alls.

Instead of informed authors who would have made the theology clear from the beginning, you get a theological mish-mash.

"Ok. I get that you think we should all respect the English language, and follow some written definitions to a T. I also
gather, from what you yourself have said, that the reason you think this is because you want everyone to contribute to your peace of mind. The world isn't living for you, though. Everybody lives for themselves."

Different Paths have different beliefs. How hard is that to follow? :)

"I live by a strict policy of letting others live however they please."

You keep implying that I'm in some way trying to control people, I'm not.

"What I don't tolerate, and I admit this, is people preaching their way and refusing"

My way? Paganism was around a very long time. And I think it is you all who are trying to change it into something it is not.

"to accept that other people might have a way that works for them. Such as here,"

I accept that.

"where you're saying that it's not acceptable for people to call themselves Pagan, or Pagan/Christan, or whatever they want to, because you and the dictionary don't consider them to be."

A Christian is a person who follows the bible, believes in jaysus, the virgin mary, and god - And is always a monotheist. The religion is very strict about this.

A Pagan is a polytheist, pantheist, or godless person.

Christian-Paganism does not exist, it is a misnomer. And completely hypocritical.

Unlike a witch who can mix any belief system with their practise, because witchcraft doesn't have rules of belief.

Do you get it now????

"Personally, I don't understand how anyone can call themselves a Pagan and not follow one of the "rules" mentioned time and again-- We know our way isn't the ONLY way."

When did I say it was? I'm not talking about the validity of one's belief, just the misrepresentation of paganism, and christianity for that matter.

" We don't try and convert people-- Because a dictionary doesn't say so, "respect for others" is not a quality of a Pagan now?""

No, "pagan" doesn't imply character traits.

"I guess all I'm saying is, I understand what you're saying."

Ah...no...you...don't.

"I have been listening."

Hmm, are you sure you didn't just skim through a couple and say "This person is wrong, wrong, wrong!"

If not you, then a lot of the others.

"I don't understand how one could be so adament about words and regulations,"

How can I _not_ be adamant about something as important as this?

And it's not just about words and regulation, its about a distortion of faith.


~Tara the Blue~

[loopy]

Yeah, I'm sure I just didn't skim the paragraphs. I read everything. And while I did, I wasn't thinking, "This person's ideas are "wrong wrong wrong." I was thinking, "This person's ideas are closed-minded."

When I referred to your way, I was referring to the fact that you seem to worship on the altar of the dictionary, and a lot of people don't, and you seem to be saying that if they don't, they're wrong.


Christian-Paganism does not exist

That's funny. I know a lot of people who would say, "Witches don't exist." I've met Christian-Pagans. They exist.


When did I say it was? I'm not talking about the validity of one's belief, just the misrepresentation of paganism, and christianity for that matter.

You're talking about the validity of one's belief in their own label.


No, "pagan" doesn't imply character traits.

So Pagans have no character traits at all? Because it's not implied? See what I'm saying here?


How can I _not_ be adamant about something as important as this?

IMO, it's not that important in the great scheme of things, and on the route we're going to have to agree to disagree.


And it's not just about words and regulation, its about a distortion of faith.

No one's distorting you. WHY do you care?? To put it harshly, it's none of yours or anyone else's business what people choose to call themselves. Faith is personal, as well as how faith is labeled.

Now, could we just stop this please? We're going in circles, and neither of us are going to change our minds. And because I'm stubborn, I can't stop 'til you stop.

[Lucidia]

<ENTERING MODERATION MODE FOR THE LAST TIME ON THIS THREAD>

THE INSULTS STOP NOW

THE OT NONESENSE STOPS NOW

OR I WILL CLOSE THIS THREAD

YOU CAN CONTINUE TO IGNORE MY MODERATIONS BUT I WILL NOT IGNORE THE CONTINUAL RULE BREAKING

BLUEWINTER, THERE WAS NO NEED FOR YOU TO INSULT QABALARINA BACK, I ALREADY MODERATED HER POST, AND RATHER THAN ACCEPT THAT YOU BROKE THE RULE AS WELL AND INSULTED HER BACK

THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR INSULTS AND NEGATIVELY BASED ARGUMENTS

THIS IS THE LAST WARNING BEFORE I FORMALLY BRING THIS WHOLE THING TO THE "CLOSE THIS THREAD" STAGE

<END MODERATION MODE>

[GrayKnyght]

Hmmm....guess I'd better watch myself in this war zone. I'll attempt to keep my words in proper form.

Is Satanism Pagan?
Could go either way with this. The terms are wrong in the first place.
I'll use the English language in this, if no one objects. That's what we speak, right?
The definition of "Satan" is "adversary". It was adopted by the hebrews to give a title to the adversary of their god. This meaning has been adopted by our dictionary as well....making it "adversary of God" in the Jewish and Chrisian sense.
Satanism is incorrect to use for those who follow the teachings of Morgan Levay (otherwise known as the satanic bible) really has nothing to do with Satan, IMO. It has to do with the self-indulgence that has been mentioned before.
Now, the Christians I have met don't view Satanism in that way, anyway. They view it as evil, demonic, violent, etc. They also view all pagans as Satanist in this definition. A common response when I ask a Christian what they think of Wicca is "Well, I think Satan appears in many forms to misguide people."
I don't believe Satanists are Pagan in either definition.
Points (by English language definitions)

1. A Pagan is defined as being a polytheist

2. A follower of the satanic bible is not a polytheist just for going by those teachings. Some may believe in several gods, but they are not pagan just for following the satanic bible.

3. The overall Christian definition of a Satanist (in my experience, mind you) follows Lucifer (titled Satan), who is old testament bible. Lucifer was never portrayed as a god. He was an angel who disobeyed his god and was punished. These followers have varied beliefs, but I don't think any of them could be termed "Pagan" for them.

Ok....a Christian Pagan?
Maybe, but it would be difficult. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. Not being an expert on his teachings, I'll do my best.
You really would have to chop the bible up into pieces that you like and don't like. The bible doesn't really refute the existance of other gods, but generally states that worshipping other gods before the one the bible is about is wrong.
I don't believe there can be a Christian who does not believe in anything in the bible, so it's either pick and choose what feels right from both religion types (Christian and Pagan) or choose one. I don't believe you can follow both in their entirety.

On the subject that Bree should not wear her pendant to avoid a conflict. I can't believe that anyone would suggest that hiding your beliefs would solve anything. Should everyone lie if they are asked what they believe in? Wouldn't doing either be a betrayal to their faith?

Anyway...that's my view on things
~Sean

[GrayKnyght]

BlueWinter.
I saw that you spoke of Anton Levay. My information said Morgan Levay(as I put in my previous post), but I may be wrong.
Basically, Levay (whatever his first name is) put together teachings that sometimes are referred to as Satanism, but really don't have anything to do with Satan (as referred to in the bible).
I agree partially with your original statement except for a couple things.
A Satanist who worships a pagan god does make them a pagan, but simply being a Satanist doesn't (IMO)
Also, Satan was introduced well before Christianity ever surfaced.

Overall, the main problem with the main question and overall arguement is the misuse and generalization of words, but, using the definitions I can find, I stick with the opinion that Satanism is not a Pagan following
{A little edit on this post. I've been soundly corrected. It was Anton Szander LaVey...not Morgan. My bad}
~Sean

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by BlueWinter

A Christian is a person who follows the bible, believes in jaysus, the virgin mary, and god - And is always a monotheist. The religion is very strict about this.

A Pagan is a polytheist, pantheist, or godless person.



~Tara the Blue~

Christians worhsip Jesus, not jaysus.

Pagans can be montheistic. There is nothing in the definition that insists they be polytheistic, pantheistic, or atheistic.

[GrayKnyght]

Originally posted by EasternPriest


Pagans can be montheistic. There is nothing in the definition that insists they be polytheistic, pantheistic, or atheistic.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Main Entry: pa·gan
Pronunciation: 'pA-g&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin, country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT
Date: 14th century
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

Main Entry: poly·the·ism
Pronunciation: 'pä-lE-(")thE-"i-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
Date: 1613
: belief in or worship of more than one god


Pagans can worship only one god, but believe in many. This would make them a polytheist.
Looks like the only two options are polytheism or atheism, though the second definition of "pagan" kind of leans towards LaVey's teachings. I'm not going to go there, though. Still sticking with Satanism not being Pagan

~Sean

[Spirahl]

My *personal* definition of "pagan" is "nature-based spirituality or philosophy".
Different dictionaries will say different things... there are dictionaries that define "witch" as being a "devil-worshipper" and I know this to be untrue of many people here...
According to *my* definiton of paganism, I would catagorize Satanism as pagan. CD made a very good arguement for this in another thread which unfortunately I cannot find. But individualism and survival of the self, acting upon our instictual desires, thoughts and wills, is indeed very "nature-based" in my opinion.

[Killer]

Sean I agree about the xian-pagan. To Loopy- Sorry if you were offended about me saying the xian-pagan "religion" is nonexistent and impossible, but it's true. If you read Sean's above post you'll see what I mean. A xian-pagan basically picks and chooses bits and pieces about each faith and follow that, not really staying true to either belief. It's impossible to hold two beliefs that are so opposite from each other and stay faithful to both. It's impossible, one has to give otherwise you're not true to yourself. So xian-pagans don't exist they're just a bunch of people scared to go all the way. So their faith is nonexistent and impossible.

As for Satanism, You got the people who think they possess the forces of darkness and worship Satan (hates xians and pagans), would never call themselves Pagan cause that's not dark enough, these are mostly young kids who have no friends and want to feel special(and some who grow into adults who have the same problems)- So many of these around!

You got the kind who don't follow a god but believe in self indulgance (stated before) which I don't get I mean be an atheist, why call themselves Satanist? But mostly these people are just rebelling against the "uptightness" of xianity (stated before)

Those are the only kinds I've ever heard of, There are some who practice magic...but only the "darkest" magic lol!

Still IMO doesn't make any of them pagan.

[GrayKnyght]

Originally posted by Spirahl
My *personal* definition of "pagan" is "nature-based spirituality or philosophy".
"...According to *my* definiton of paganism, I would catagorize Satanism as pagan.
"...But individualism and survival of the self, acting upon our instictual desires, thoughts and wills, is indeed very "nature-based" in my opinion.

This could be looked at from that angle, but I still believe "Satanism" as a word should be discarded in this context. The word itself is untrue to the beliefs you speak of.
Maybe we could call it LaVeyism :)
Satanism, in it's popular definition, is used to describe a system of beliefs of evil, violence, and general chaos. The media uses it this way, and so that is what many people think when they hear on the news that "So-and-so, who is involved in a Satanist cult, did such-and such."
Again, the problem lies within the words...not really the question.

~Sean

[Myst]

Fascinating response, Spirahl. Definitely some brain food. Since my understandings of Satanism come from Lucidia's comments and the two websites she shared, and my beliefs on what Paganism come from the Pagans I know... who cannot be categorized but what deities they work, rules they follow, or ceremonies they perform, but just that they are individuals who rely on themselves and who aren't Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.. I believe Satanists are Pagan.

[EasternPriest]

Originally posted by GrayKnyght


1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
~Sean

especially, but not exclusively.

[lieve heks]

after a lot of thought, i ve decided that it is a personal choice, religion takes a lot of learning and a lot books/web sites tell a lot of different stories. That amazon had 'the satanic Bible' in the witchcraft section was an issue for me. And everyone had somthing to say about it "witchcraft and wicca are not the same" replied someone though in the book i am reading its one and the same. I find that disscutions on the web site are very difficult as you can't get you're full opinion over and people are very touchy about certain subject mostly they're religions, (see first few posts)so a lot of time is spent just apologizing. That satanism is a pagan religion? i've yet to learn a lot more about it, i know its certainly not somebody worshipping some evil being/force for most its a worship of nature and the forces of nature. But i don't personally think it is a part of witchcraft.

[Dria El]

Jeez... back to labels are we?

Just a little OT but... I just don't get why you all get so worked up about what everyone else is saying. No two people have the same exact opinions. The general population isn't going to be 'enlightened' by yours. So if you feel like expressing it, express it. But please... move on after that. It doesn't do any good to argue about it and it really isn't worth all the negativity to keep it going.

Anyways... Just my thoughts on the whole 'deal'... fire away if you must.

[lieve heks]

are you talking to me dria?, if so re-read my post, if not thats my point exactly, the fact that you don't have to think the same as everyone else is a main attraction of the pagan path to me

[Dria El]

Nope. Not talking to anyone specifically. It's just something I've noticed over the years about online message boards and chat rooms. People take way to seriously what people they've never met 'said'. It's happening all over this site and just seems to always happen in conjunction with threads of this nature (especially anything about Satanism). Till now I've pretty much said nothing but it does get old after awhile.

So, if you were saying pretty much the same thing, then I'm just saying it a different way. :)

[Lucidia]

Isn't this cute.

Everyone just HAS to keep CHOKING us with their ROCK SOLID CAN'T POSSIBLY BE CHALLANGED OR PROVED WRONG points and opinions.

well not everyone.. just most of the people talking in this thread.

I think I understand why this all started... I mean... think about it... pagans are constantly getting told they are devil worshipping baby killers.... well... i wonder if those devil worshipping baby killers are getting called pagans?

Problem is, the FACT remains that Satanists are NOT devil worshipers. There is no "diety" aspect in the belief system of satanism. Sorry. this is a FACT. Not something i pulled out of the back of the refriderator, or found under the hood of a '57 Chevy.

so... how is it that good old Lucidia actually KNOWS something?

Maybe it's cause i LIVE with a satanic priest, TALK to him all the time, and have read him 95% of these threads, and after we stopped laughing hysterically, actually talked about how twisted everyone's perception of satanism actually is.

I have to say what i'm going to say next, and this might all seem OT, but it will make sense in the end.

This is going to offend people, but maybe some people will UNDERSTAND why i'm saying this.

Religion is targeted towards the "stupid" and "ignorant". Anyone with half a brain will recognize, if given the opportunity to learn about science and logic, that most of religions myths and general foo-foo, is mostly just some ancient dead guys "theory" on why things are. Oooh... the gods are angry, that's why there is thunder. My baby died, god must have needed and angel. Two examples, one old, and one that people still use today. Sorry, but science has lots of logical and proven theories on why people die, and why weather works. No gods, no ju-ju, no spells, no curses, no gods, nothing at all.

Much of religion seems to target people who are insecure are weak. Most of it is scare tactics to get people to drop their paycheck in the collection box, and cower in fear at the judgement of some never-present god.

In my opinion, that's all pretty stupid. Living your life in fear, denying yourself NATURAL pleasures (sorry, sex isn't wrong, and that's only ONE point of reference). I'm not saying people should be even MORE stupid and kill themselves with wreckless and careless lifestyles. What I am saying, is there is NO use in wasting what is probably your ONLY few years on this planet in fear, crying and praying on your knees all night because you decided to do something "sinful".

Good old Lucifer knew this interesting little bit of enlightened knowledge. Hence, his "character" decided not to fall on his knees and follow the backward laws of some all-too-righteous god. Mind you, this god, who is supposed to "know everything", apparently didn't know better than to create lucifer, OR humanity, in the first place. This ALL LOVING god, who killed EVERYONE, including ignorant/innocent children, just because of the fact that they "used" the "free will" that HE gave them. Satan didn't do it. But he gets the blame. In fact... if satan hadn't bothered to talk to "adam", he would have gone about his life never knowing much at all.

For the most part, until man was "smart" enough to know the difference between "good" and "evil", then he just did whatever he wanted guilt free. It wasn't until this "concept" was introduced into his mind that he ever felt "guilty" or "upset" over something he did. In fact, until Adam was "given" Eve, he was having intercourse with whatever animal he could find. Isn't that kinda "sinful"? But no! only because he didn't "know" or "believe" what he was doing to be wrong, was he able to maintain a clear concience.

Ignorance is indeed, bliss. (if you like animals in "that" way, wink-wink)

So in basic literary style, we have this twisted story, with an evil protagonist (the good guy), and for the most part, a pretty decent guy, who was tired of following pointless rules, and being subjugated by some guy that won't even show his face to the people he's about to kill (using that all so convenient excuse that a human can't see god and live... seems like a cop out to me... kinda like when a chick says she has to wash her hair to get out of going on a date with the class dork) for using the free will he gave them, who is deemed the antagnoist.

So in this way, Satan eventually became this socially accepted ultimate-antagnoist. The cause of all our problems, the one who brings about all the horrible things in the world. the personification of all sin, evil, and bad stuff.

What what did he do exactly? he just wanted some credit, some appreciation, and thought that humanity deserved the chance to make it's own decisions.

The concept of satan got twisted around and used as a way to make god seem innocent, a way to put the blame on someone other than god, and give people a way to blame someone OTHER than themselves when something bad happens, or they slip up and do something 'sinful'.

It's also much like a secret clubhouse. If you know the password and follow our special rules, you can come up the clubhouse.

follow the religion, pay your dues, and maybe god will let you into heaven when you die.

It would be FAR TOO HARD to accept that reality that MAYBE... just MAYBE there is no god, or satan, or heaven, or any of that.

It would just be BEYOND COMPREHENSION to accept that we are all going to die, and there is no afterlife. no greater purpose. And that maybe, just maybe, we are here to live and die, and should make the best of our short time here, since there isn't any point to saving up points for some kinda of afterlife rewards program. Sometimes i feel like religion is like a credit card, the more you charge, the bigger your bill, and more miserable you get, but gee, look at all those nifty rewards points that you can cash someday, but the chances are, you'll never use them, and even if you did, you wont' get what you really expected.

The grass is always greener....


so, you might ask.. WHY is Lucidia ranting about all this religion stuff....

Well this is exactly why: I just gave my POV on some types of religion. I also gave my POV on the people in it. Anyone offended? Anyone think what I said was mean, wrong, insulting?

Maybe, maybe not.

The point is, that it's MY opinion. truth faith and belief will ALWAYS be a PERSONAL thing. It's like our view on ANYTHING. WE all percieve things differently.

Is Satanism Pagan? well that depends... are we talking about YOUR VIEW of satanism compared to YOUR VIEW on what makes a religion pagan... or are we talking about the FACTS behind both concepts?

The problem is, that people have forgotten, in many cases, that they're beliefs shouldn't be pushed into other people's happy little bubble.

If you are not familiar with my bubble philosophy, let me quickly review.

You are you. You effect your life with your thoughts and actions. You have effectively created a "bubble" around yourself. Your bubble is your ideas, your thoughts, your beliefs ,your energy... your aura. it's YOU. it guides you, protects you, shields you...

Sometimes... people like living in their bubble SO much... that they decide to drag other people into their bubble.. or change that person's bubble so it's just like thiers. I mean.. gee... my bubble is OBVIOUSLY the ONLY TRUE bubble, and therefore, all others must convert their bubbles to be like mine, or they will never find real happiness, etc.

But you see, everyone is happy with their bubble. They dont' want you to tell them they are wrong. And if you do, then they'll argue forever.

Sometimes, they will say something smart, Like "you're not wrong, but I'm not wrong either. live your life in the way that you please, and I will also live mine by my own choices as well".

Other times.. they argue... like "you know, you're stupid. you should know, that MY bubble is better, and instead of you telling me what to do, you should really start making changes so your bubble is like mine..."

And from there, we find an endless supply of argument.

The unfortunate side effect of many religions, is that there is no room for error, no room for other possibilities, and no room for change.

there are NO other gods, there are NO other laws, there are NO other choices. this is the ONLY truth, and if you dont' follow it, BAD things will happen.

Doesn't sound like a happy life to me.

Hence, I choose to live without labels. I follow bits and peices of many paths and beliefs.

And i think it's VERY foolish to sit around arguing about something this trivial. Think about all the time you wasted sitting here, making your OH SO VALID points on why or why not, satanism is pagan.

A few of you caught on and stopped arguing, but some people just kept going and going.

Why does it matter. Do you really care? is it really just a bunch of bitterness because people think pagans are evil satan worshipping baby killers? And people just keep going ON and ON about how satanism is a christian related religion... even after i posted, and others posted, VARIOUS FACTUAL references as to why they AREN'T. it's like trying to argue that grass isn't green, or the sky isn't blue, or that earth isn't the 3rd rock from the sun. Sorry folks, the facts remain. If you wish to have an opinion that is not based on fact, keep in mind, that you are JUST LIKE every person that assumes if you are "pagan", that you are an evil horrible person, who worships demons and is going to hell. They think that because they have an OPINION that is based on BLIND JUDGEMENT rather than FACT.

I'm sick of ranting, and i have only a few hours to finish my big work project... so i'm gonna stop now...

[Kaylara]

:nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono: :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono: :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono: :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono: :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono: :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono: :nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:
:nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:

Thank you Sister.

Kaylara

[Myst]

What she said. I think if I had a big enough forehead I'd have part of that tattooed on it.

[GrayKnyght]

Originally posted by Lucidia
Religion is targeted towards the "stupid" and "ignorant".

....And i think it's VERY foolish to sit around arguing about something this trivial. Think about all the time you wasted sitting here, making your OH SO VALID points on why or why not, satanism is pagan.

A few of you caught on and stopped arguing, but some people just kept going and going.

Why does it matter. Do you really care? is it really just a bunch of bitterness because people think pagans are evil satan worshipping baby killers?

Love the flames.... :bad:
You did ask the real question, though. What does it matter?
It matters because the media and society forms much of the views about the two words Satanism and Pagan. They portray Satanists as dangerous people. They use Satanist and Pagan as synonymous words. So the average person who trusts the media will think of Pagans as dangerous people.
And that, in my opinion, is not trivial. Pagans are persecuted all over because of this. They are harassed, fired from jobs, assaulted and more. All because of a stereotype that is false in the way it is presented.
So, yes, there is some bitterness...but isn't it justified?

~Sean

[SpikesPet5150]

Yeah, I think thats the real problem here. It's the fact that the media portrays Satanists as Devil Worshippers.. most of us know thats crap. BUT, the rest of the population who watches the news and the 700 Club Halloween Specials don't. So when they compare Pagans/Wiccans to Satanists, it's just like comparing them to Devil worshippers, which also, IMO, is crap.

This is one of those very personal things, each person has to make their own assumption. I am sick and tired of people assuming things about me because they are misinformed. I'm not going to say they're ignorant, because they have the information... just the wrong information.

I don't think this thread was supposed to be about Satanists vs Pagans. But that seems to be how it turned out. I'm voting for the moderators to close this thread, so we can get on with our lives. This is really nothing more than a flaming war. None of us are going to change anyone elses mind (and I don't think that was Tara's point, anyways). Each of us has our own opinions that we think is "right." I don't think anything good can come of this thread.
~Bree

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by EasternPriest
Christians worhsip Jesus, not jaysus.

That's the common pronunciation I hear.


Pagans can be montheistic. There is nothing in the definition that insists they be polytheistic, pantheistic, or atheistic.

Where are you getting your information from?
Because that's _entirely_ wrong.


~Render unto Caesar~

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Lucidia
Religion is targeted towards the "stupid" and "ignorant". Anyone with half a brain will recognize, if given the opportunity to learn about science and logic, that most of religions myths and general foo-foo, is

Interesting, no one else can be insulting, but you seem to have free-range.

OOPS!!!

I forgot, you're the moderator (The Big Bad!!) you can say whatever you please, am I right?

<snip longggggggg angry rant>


I'm sick of ranting...

I'm sick of listening.


~Blueeeeeeee~

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by GrayKnyght
And that, in my opinion, is not trivial. Pagans are persecuted all over because of this. They are harassed, fired from jobs, assaulted and more. All because of a stereotype that is false in the way it is presented.
So, yes, there is some bitterness...but isn't it justified?
~Sean

Thank you Sean!


"Freedom and whiskey gang togither, tak aff yer dram!" ~Rabbie

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by SpikesPet5150
<snip>
I don't think this thread was supposed to be about Satanists vs Pagans. But that seems to be how it turned out. I'm voting for the moderators to close this thread, so we can get on with our lives. This is really nothing more than a flaming war. None of us are going to change anyone elses mind (and I don't think that was Tara's point, anyways). Each of us has our own opinions that we think is "right." I don't think anything good can come of this thread.
~Bree

Yes, let the madness end.


~Blueeeeeeeee~

[Lucidia]

Originally posted by BlueWinter


Interesting, no one else can be insulting, but you seem to have free-range.

OOPS!!!

I forgot, you're the moderator (The Big Bad!!) you can say whatever you please, am I right?

<snip longggggggg angry rant>



I'm sick of listening.


~Blueeeeeeee~

hmm didn't i point out that i wasn't DIRECTLY INSULTING people?

i'm entitled to my opinion.

there is a big difference between organized RELIGION and following a "path". most pagans i know follow a "path"

don't try and say that i'm insulting people because i'm a mod.

you are the one that broke the rules.

i said religion is TARGETED towards the stupid and ignorant. not that everyone who is "religious" is stupid or ignorant.

religion, at least most"mainsrtream" ones, are "businesses", more concerned about money and power than the people themselves.

no pagans I know actually have to pay "tithes:" or "dues" to their "paths"

sorry if i offend you, personally, i think you're just getting angry because you broke the rules, so now you're trying to make me look bad.

i didn't do anything.

anyways... i agree with many of these comments, but i have to say.. it's not SATANISTS fault that people think pagans are devil worshippers.

people are judgemental and kinda screwed up.. sorry.

[Myst]

I just think it's kind of interesting that some people are trying to justify being angry or not listening by saying it's ok for them to be bitter since Pagans get persecuted and people assume we're devil worshippers.

Just because some people walk around persecuting us, does that mean we should be able to label and persecute Satanists?

Do you suppose that those people who think Pagans are devil worshippers are wandering around MW and just happened upon this thread and need to see us persecute Satanists so they know we aren't devil worshippers?

But the topic is "is Satanism Pagan". We all have different opinions, and regardless, none of our opinions are going to change eachother's, and none of us are going to change whether or not Satanists consider themselves Pagans, or whether other Pagans consider Satanists to be Pagans. To some of us they are, to some of us they aren't.

[SpikesPet5150]

Who was *ever* trying to persecute Satanists?? I've re-read every single post and didn't see one single instance where someone was attempting to persecture a Satanist.

And Lucidia.. you did more than just insult Tara... you insulted me. And I never broke any rules or was mad at you for anything.

~Bree

[Myst]

Whether you agree or not, my opinion is that people were persecuting Satanists. If you agreed with me on this you would understand why I say this. If you can't understand why I said this, you disagree, and I won't be able to persuade you to agree, and I don't intend to argue about it.

So does anyone else have something to share on the topic of whether Satanists are Pagan?

[Danustouch]

I'm pretty sure i stated MY OPINION on this subject wayyyyyyyyy back..maybe in another thread about the same subject. So..I won't state it again. My opinion, is my opinion. What I do want to address is the Ugliness surrounding this thread. Some of you seem hell bent on slamming people, for THEIR opinions. And this has got to stop. If you have a problem with a person in this thread, report it to a moderator. If the person you have a problem with IS a moderator, report it to ANOTHER moderator, or to MOL. But...at least go back and re-read the posts several times, to make sure that you did not take anything out of context. And if something seems to strike you as offensive, give the author the benefit of the doubt...ASK THEM to clarify. Ask them what they meant, before jumping down their throaghts. And I'm not being a hypocrite here..i've done the same things. And am sorry. (in other threads). I just reallllllly hate all of the nasty stuff floating around in here lately. I realize we all have free speech, and free wills, and are entitled to our opinions. But I see some of it digressing into personal attacks/flame wars. And I think it is pretty pitiful.

And by the way, Blue Winter. The mods here are members TOO. If we get out of line, we can be spoken to by the administrators TOO. We don't get away with anything that any other member wouldn't. Furthermore, WE ARE ALLOWED to express our opinions, as well, as members. And that post you went off on by Lucidia....was written as a MEMBER..not in moderator mode. I believe. MODERATOR MODE messages are written in Bold, and noted as such. Moderators do NOT Think we have any specific priveledges on this board. We do NOT think we are high and mighty, or that we are above reproach. So don't use that as an excuse please. If you disagree with Lucidia's post..find some other argument to use about it. Please. The Moderators are trying the best we can to make sure that everyone has a pleasant experience here at MW. We try to resolve personal disagreements, so that neither party leaves. We try to make sure that forums have interesting material to discuss, and we try to make sure that the threads do not become outwardly hostile, or offensive to our members. But we are only human.

So many people wanted to see this thread remain open. Because there ARE satanists who visit this board, and they DO deserve to feel that their beliefs can be openly discussed as well. So, that is why this thread has remained open for as long as it has. But if people insist on making it an open flame war...i think it may be shut down. So...my advice is this. If you don't like the opinions expressed in this thread. Respond to them. If you don't like the responses YOU Get, if it gets too much for you. Stop reading them and responding. I have. When a topic gets too heated...I just walk away, instead of alienating myself, others, and causing a thread to be closed. That's just a little bit of advice.

[BlueWinter]

Spelling error!

Sorry, on the header I spelled "response" with a "c"

Arghhh!!!!!!


Originally posted by Lucidia
there is a big difference between organized RELIGION and following a "path". most pagans i know follow a "path"
i said religion is TARGETED towards the stupid and ignorant. not that everyone who is "religious" is stupid or ignorant.


But you also said:

"No gods, no ju-ju, no spells, no curses, no gods, nothing at all."

Which I do think was targeted to witches/pagans.

But if you say you weren't trying to be offensive, then ok.


you are the one that broke the rules.

No, I don't think what I said to Q was mean enough to be considered an insult.


sorry if i offend you, personally, i think you're just getting angry because you broke the rules, so now you're trying to make me look bad.

No, and I'm not angry.


anyways... i agree with many of these comments, but i have to say.. it's not SATANISTS fault that people think pagans are devil worshippers.

Never said it was, only that a distinction should be made.


----------------------

Originally posted by Danustouch
So many people wanted to see this thread remain open. Because there ARE satanists who visit this board, and they DO deserve to feel that their beliefs can be openly discussed as well.

(Curious) Why haven't they posted????


<snips>i think it may be shut down. So...my advice is this. If you don't like the opinions expressed in this thread. Respond to them. If you don't like the responses YOU Get, if it gets too much for you. Stop reading them and responding. I have.
When a topic gets too heated...I just walk away, instead of alienating myself, others, and causing a thread to be closed. That's just a little bit of advice.

You all take things way too seriously.


~Winter's here~

"Let paranoia in."

"You keep this _love_"

"I'd kill myself for you - I'd kill you for MYSELF." -Pantera

[Danustouch]

I think that the Satanists who visit this board probably feel no need to post in the thread, considering so many people seem to have made up their minds about what THEY believe. And they probably don't feel the need to justify themselves to you or me...but hey...I may be wrong about that. I'm sure they have better things to do with their time than to argue with people about what they believe. Just as you and I don't post in every Christian Chatroom or message board about what WE Believe.

[SpikesPet5150]

What I want to know is, why are some of you people thinking this thread is a bash to Satanists?? No one ever said that! We were just trying to make the distinction between Satanists and Pagans, which led into making the distinction between Satanists and Devil Worshippers and Wiccans and Christians and Pagans. No one ever said that Satanists are bad, just that there should be a distinction. I'm seriously curious about why you think anyone was ever bashing Satanists.
~Bree

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by SpikesPet5150 No one ever said that Satanists are bad, just that there should be a distinction. I'm seriously curious about why you think anyone was ever bashing Satanists.
~Bree

I agree, they're taking everything too personally. Like we're attacking their religion or beliefs, when we're not.


~Winter's here.

"Revolution is my name."

"Don't waste your time, embrace it."

"Its goddamn electric." -Pantera

[lovepoet]

I strongly resonated with Willow Ravens comment about
Satanists being persecuted - it's indisputable - it's fact.

And of course:
Pagans have been persecuted
Wiccans have been persecuted

Leaving alone the question 'are satanists pagans?'

I would just like to point out that such persecuted groups
might be expected to feel some kinship, some 'brotherhood'
(or sisterhood even) in persecution.

My experience however, is to the contrary, I have met
several Pagans and Wiccans who, latch on to the idea
of downtalking Satanists and Satanism (which is a persecution)
because it somehow differentiates 'their' belief system
from that of Satanists (which is actually never identified,
never discussed) giving them apparent moral superiority
and an 'acceptability' with groups that might otherwise
persecute *them* -- that can now all agree to agree on
something, they can all deride Satanists/Satanism.

This is very much the argument put forward by Josef Goebbels,
propaganda minister for the Third Reich, when he united many
warring, argumentative factions in a contrived, common hatred
of a scapegoat - the jews.

It's a deeply disturbing trend, note that the Satanists
don't even have to do or say anything for it to happen.
It's sufficient for them to say nothing. All manner of
unpleasantries and vileness can then be 'attributed'
to them.

Satanists are just a cypher here, you can replace the word
with islamic terrorists, falun gong, scientology,
patriot militia...whoever is to be the villain of the day.

Of course, once 'the jews' were suppressed, and the Nazi
party was fully in power, the other 'warring factions' thought
of as 'undesireable' were next in line.

They should have a voice. Often, it is this very fear of
persecution, that keeps them from exercising it.

Voltaire said:
"I may disagree with what you say,
but I will defend to the death,
your right to say it."
though he said it in French. :)

[SpikesPet5150]

Ok... I wasn't saying that Satanists have never ever ever been persecuted.. I was saying no one in this thread ever once said anything bad against satanism. I don't know why you guys have turned this into a Satanists -vs- Pagan thing.. it was NEVER about that, until now. This whole thread is completely off topic. It's threads like this one that make me disgusted to be a part of message boards at all. Why can't everyone realize that everyone has different views... and nothing you say will change that.

The one thing I want to know is, where in ANY of these posts did someone persecute a satanist? You're completely twisting our words around, and it's not appreciated.
~Bree

[Myst]

lovepoet : I found your response to be fascinating and well spoken. I think it strikes exactly the right chord.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
lovepoet : I found your response to be fascinating and well spoken. I think it strikes exactly the right chord.

YEs I wonder why it strikes that right chord ;)

[Killer]

When did this become a Satanist bashing thread? Who said something bad about Satanist? Was it saying they were apart of xianity? Saying they weren't pagan? I don't get it. You people seem to have your knickers all up in a bunch over stuff that wasn't even said. Maybe you all need something to rage about I don't know.

Ok fine, if it would make you all happy every human being in the entire world is pagan, okay. We're on Earth and we die and become fertilizer for the grass and trees to grow, okay so we're all pagan. Let's contact the xians, wiccans, Pagans, buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Catholics et al....oh and let's not forget because if I do I will be discriminating...The Satanist. Let's get a hold of them all and tell them we are all pagan cause we're on this earth and become apart of the Earth when we die. Tell them that there is no distinction cause after all pagan can mean anything right? So tell them we are all the same, so everybody got their phones ready? Start dialing. :)

PS- And don't forget to walk up to a xian on the street preferably one just getting out of church and tell them you're a xian-pagan and they're pagan too and after they finish stomping your face in for the lord, go to your alter or whatever you have and reflect on how we are all the same and how we are all one.


BTW- What were the bad things said about Satanist anyway?

[Myst]

lol Mist. I just think it's a great (and eloquently put) point :)

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by lovepoet <snip>I would just like to point out that such persecuted groups
might be expected to feel some kinship, some 'brotherhood' (or sisterhood even) in persecution.

Not when you have nothing in common with said group.
(And no, persecution doesn't count.)


Satanists are just a cypher here, you can replace the word
with islamic terrorists, falun gong, scientology, patriot militia...whoever is to be the villain of the day.

And just how did you reach this conclusion??

We're discussing satanism's relationship to paganism.

See header: "Is Satanism Pagan"

Not - "Satanism, the Most Evil and Vile Cult Ever Spawned"

Which a lot of you seem to think it is.
-Don't ask me why.


This is very much the argument put forward by Josef Goebbels,
propaganda minister for the Third Reich, when he united many
warring, argumentative factions in a contrived, common hatred
of a scapegoat - the jews.
<snip>
Of course, once 'the jews' were suppressed, and the Nazi
party was fully in power, the other 'warring factions' thought
of as 'undesireable' were next in line.

How in the world can you compare the bias towards Satanists, and the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany????

That's not even a "stretch", that's an outright LEAP.


~Blueeeeeeee

"I'll split my head in two, and see you twice!."

"No sense makes sense." -Pantera

[Spirahl]

*twiddling thumbs and whistling innocently*
*wondering who cares anymore?*

;) :rolleyes: :D

:eek: Did I do that?:p

Well, it takes two to argue...
anyone care to respond to Blue Winter's last post,
or shall we let the monologue begin ???

[Spirahl]

*giggle*

*blush*

*giggle*

[Spirahl]

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Mama always said to count to ten...

[Myst]

I don't know, I kind of like your monologue.

[Danustouch]

Lovepoet is trying to make a point that I, personally, agree with. I do not believe he was saying that people who don't agree with Satanism, would rather see satanists hunted down and murdered (because hopefully, we've learned lessons from the past.). But that the assumptions we make about Satanism, as a path, and the stereotypes, and labels, and traditions, are dangerous. Why? Because that is how the whole thing STARTED in Nazi Germany. The anti semetic beliefs that Hitler pronounced, were not entirely his own ideas. They weren't radical, for the time. Anti Semitism had been around FAR longer than Hitler. Hitler was only a reallllllllly big megaphone screaming out these twisted ideas. Anti Semitism began with simple misunderstandings about another culture/religion. It started with Presumptions. And with little bits of fact being distorted into HUGE lies, It started with people making assumptions. ie "Hey..that Jew is making a lot of money at is store. And so is that Jewish Doctor. They must be out to take over the world!!!!!!!!!". These twisted conclusions were made easier by misunderstanding. That is why it is SO important to a)check your facts. b)not make assumptions, and c)stay open minded. Because if not, you run the risk of being a victim to a brainwashing maniac LIKE Hitler. That to me, is what Lovepoet was talking about. You can say it is a great leap in reasoning...but is it really? People assumed witches rode on brooms to their gatherings, because of rituals where a broom was used as a fertility symbol. Misunderstandings like this, as little as they may seem, as TRIVIAL as they may seem, have a GREAT impact on society. Unfortunately. I mean...look at how long it took us to combat that picture of a Witch? It's still all around us in Media. Anyway...I'm getting a little bit off topic, but am trying to make a point here. What Lovepoet said is a VERY valid point. We must be VERY careful not to make assumptions. We know what assumptions do!. Unless I'm TOTALLY misinterpreting his point....Marc???? Was I even CLOSE? LOL

[Lavender]

Originally posted by BlueWinter
[/i] quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is very much the argument put forward by Josef Goebbels,
propaganda minister for the Third Reich, when he united many
warring, argumentative factions in a contrived, common hatred
of a scapegoat - the jews.
<snip>
Of course, once 'the jews' were suppressed, and the Nazi
party was fully in power, the other 'warring factions' thought
of as 'undesireable' were next in line.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



How in the world can you compare the bias towards Satanists, and the persecution of Jews in Nazi Germany????

That's not even a "stretch", that's an outright LEAP.[QUOTE]


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I guess if you <snip> enough out, you can justify any point you want to make.

[Dria El]

Originally posted by Spirahl
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Mama always said to count to ten...

Wouldn't it be nicer to do that to yourself?

[BlueWinter]

Originally posted by Wildchild
I guess if you <snip> enough out, you can justify any point you want to make.

No, I "<snip>" to save space. A common practise in forums.

And if you'll re-read his post you'll see I wasn't taking him out of context.

-Its funny how you try and find the littlest thing to pick-on, instead of contributing to the discussion.


"You know its going to be the Ace of Spades." -MH

[Danustouch]

Just my opinion..but...sometimes, you just don't have to look allllllll that hard.

[Semele]

MODERATOR MODE:

This thread has gone off topic and taken too many ugly turns. I am closing it now.

END MODERATOR MODE

Personal Admin Note:

I have personally heard enough on this topic. There is nothing constructive being said. It is a topic in which we will all have to agree to disagree. It is past time to move on to other topics. No sense beating a dead horse and in the process offending or directly insulting other members. Enough blood has been shed here. DO NOT START ANOTHER THREAD ON THIS TOPIC!