Lilith

[Kern]

I found this very interesting.I had never heard this on Lilith before.

A NOTE ON LILITH
Lilith is listed here because there seems to be some confusion regarding this personage, who is wrongly thought to be a Sumerian goddess. Fundamentally, Lillith is not a Sumerian goddess, but a Jewish figure, there occupying a central place as a demoness. Neo-paganism has deified Lilith, but the fact remains that according to Sumerian sources lilith is not a deity. In fact, Lilith is not an individual at all, but rather a class of ancient near-eastern demons. To quote "Gods, Demons, and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia,":
The male lilu and two females lilitu and ardat-lili are a sort of family group of demons.
They are not gods.
The only appearance of a Lilith in Mesopotamian mythology was in "Inanna and The Huluppu Tree," wherein it was portrayed as an evil demon which had infested Inanna's Huluppu tree, the sacred tree Inanna found by the banks of the Euphrates and transplanted to Her city, Uruk. Lillith, a treacherous snake and bird make a home for themselves in the Tree, until forcibly driven out by Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh at this stage seems to have been a close friend of the young goddess, and it is to him that Inanna turns for help regarding the unwelcome guests lodging in the Tree. In this sense, the presence of Lillith in the first part of the Cycle of Inanna may well mean the full range of feminine energy Inanna has yet to develop and integrate within herself.
Lishtar´s Note: Personally, I find the Spirit can call upon us under many Names and guises, all equally holy. I just wanted to establish the historicity of Lillith, which definetly is not Sumerian
http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/

[~Elise~]

Hmmmm... interesting, I've never heard that about her before, either. I've worked with her in the past and she definitely isn't a demon--well, I guess that truly depends on your definition of demon. She was the first feminist...LOL.
I was all set to watch this movie special on SciFi about her and in the beginning of it they talked about her being a demon and once I quit huffing and puffing over the impending portrayal of her, I promptly turned off the TV.

Elise

[MorningDove030202]

I've never heard of her to be anything but Jewish.... I think demons and Goddesses are realive terms, one person's demon is another's God. Is she dangerous? I duno, but as a mother I avoid her just in case.

Dove

[~Elise~]

Here is something off a site about Her:

The Mythology

Lilith (pronounced lil'ith) was originally the Sumerian Queen of Heaven, A Goddess older than Inanna. The Hebrews took the Goddess and transformed her into the first wife of Adam, who refused to lie beneath him when having intercourse. She insisted that because they were created equal, they needed to have sex equally. When Adam refused, she left him. Thereafter, in Jewish mythology, she was described as a demon.

The Lessons of this Goddess

Lilith appears to tell you to take back your power. Where are the places you have lost or given away your power? What beliefs do you hold that deny your power? Have you been told that powerful women never find mates? Or that women can't have power because that would make them unfeminine? Have you been teased, shunned, ostracized by others when you've stepped into your power? Are you afraid of misusing your power to dominate or maniputlate? The Goddess says that the way to wholeness for you now lies in acknowledging that you're not connecting with your power, then second coming to terms with and accepting your power.

Here is a link to an article on Mountain Astrologer on the Dark Goddess, Lilith:
http://www.mountainastrologer.com/hunter.html

[Pandoras]

Lilith (pronounced lil'ith) was originally the Sumerian Queen of Heaven, A Goddess older than Inanna. The Hebrews took the Goddess and transformed her into the first wife of Adam, who refused to lie beneath him when having intercourse. She insisted that because they were created equal, they needed to have sex equally. When Adam refused, she left him. Thereafter, in Jewish mythology, she was described as a demon.
Could you provide your source for this, if you have it? It's very similar to the story I'm familiar with.

Here's an article about Lilith by Alan G. Hefner:

A female demon of the night who supposedly flies around searching for newborn children either to kidnap or strangle them. Also, she sleeps with men to seduce them into propagating demon sons. Legends told about Lilith are ancient. The rabbinical myths of Lilith being Adam's first wife seem to relate to the Sumero-Babylonian Goddess Belit-ili, or Belili. To the Canaanites, Lilith was Baalat, the "Divine Lady." On a tablet from Ur, ca. 2000 BCE, she was addressed as Lillake.

One story is that God created Adam and Lilith as twins joined together at the back. She demanded equality with Adam, failing to achieve it, she left him in anger. This is sometimes accompanied by a Muslim legend that after leaving Adam Lilith slept with Satan, thus creating the demonic Djinn.

Read the rest of the article at http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lilith.html

[~Elise~]

http://www.angelfire.com/va/goddesses/lili.html is where that came from.

Here are some others:
http://www.halexandria.org/dward382.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~Sister_Awake/faq/lilith.html
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/3860/goddess/lilith.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/druid/361/goddess/lilith.html

She is not to be invoked lightly--but can definitely help you learn about your shadow side. Also help you get more in touch with you and who you truly are, (be sure that you want to know though).
She can also help both male and female get more in touch with their sexual side, as well.

Beware and YMMV,

Elise

[~Elise~]

I've never heard of her to be anything but Jewish.... I think demons and Goddesses are realive terms, one person's demon is another's God. Is she dangerous? I duno, but as a mother I avoid her just in case.

Dove

Is it demon-ish to stand up and acknowledge your own power? Is it demon-ish to know yourself, as you TRULY are--not the masks that you present both to yourself and to the world? I don't think so. Male-dominated religions in the past have thought so...but She still lives on--in spite of her depictions.

I say as a Witch and a Female--every woman could stand a bit of work with Lilith to help them discover who and what they can truly be. Of course, this is just my opinion...She isn't for everyone.

Elise

[Silverwings]

I say as a Witch and a Female--every woman could stand a bit of work with Lilith to help them discover who and what they can truly be. Of course, this is just my opinion...She isn't for everyone.


I worked with Lilith for a while myself, I'd make the same suggestion but also stated, she's not for everyone.

[Nepheria]

This all reminds me of an article I wrote regarding some of Buckland's work...I'll post an excerpt of it before giving my honest opinion on the topic...

*Article*

"Lilith features in Jewish Folklore, deriving from a Babylonian-Assyrian spirit named Lilit, or Lilu. In rabbinical literature, Lilith was Adam's first wife but, being his equal she refused to lie underneath him during intercourse. When he tried to force her, she fled. Some Witches regard Lilith as a Patroness and as a Moon Goddess, whose beauty is more than human. Charles Godfrey Leland identifies Lilith with Herodias, or Aradia."

Buckland's misconception is this to me:

"She (Lilith) refused to lie underneath a man (Adam) during intercourse."

Where Adam was made from the fertility of land-Lilith was made from the vile filth of the Earth. This amuses me so because, Is it not true that manure helps the crops to grow?

Lilith held her own and expected man to hold his own. She worked for herself and expected man to work for himself in return. Now, with Buckland trying to give the reader a quick and short description of these very feminine Deities-Such dry information is to be expected. However, if being a 'Virgin,' in the true sense of the word-and by being independent means you like to be on top-That sounds just as much of a Generalization as the paragraph on the Goddess Lilith to me.

(Hopefully, everyone can understand where I was going with that without the entire article. I was ticked off that Buckland had quickly slashed Lilith off as a sex fiend, basically. Not that there's anything wrong with nymphomaniacs, she's just too complex to be that alone!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's what I have on Lilith from my personal Book of Shadows:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lilith: (Sumerian/Hebrew) Lilith is a wind spirit of the Great Goddess Ninlil, Queen of Heaven, Lady of the Air, And Mother of the Moon. Lilith's flower was the Lily and the Magickal Lotus. In the beginning she represented the Virgin (Belonging to no man,) Aspect of the Triple Goddess. She stood upon the protection of Lions and was the Lady of the Beasts. The Wisdom of the Night Screech Owl is her companion. She is the instinctive soul of the living world. Lilith became legend in a darker fashion, reviled as a destroyer and seducer of men. I.E. The first Vampire (Vampyre), The Succubus.

Lilith was the one who would not submit. She refused to lay underneath man and his demands. She lived for herself, and saw herself as man's equal. Lilith is Adam's first wife in 'Hebrew' Mythology. She is said to be the serpent that, rather than seduced Eve, helped Eve to open her eyes to see that she was also Adam's equal. It is said that the God(s) created Lilith from the filth of the land, as where Adam was apparently created from something so prosperous and clean. It is said that Lilith spoke the true name of God and fled from the Gardens in which she lived with Adam. Christianity pinned Lilith as the First Demoness saying that she fled to the Red Sea and fornicated with several Demons, having over one-hundred children a day. This idea seems just a little too far fetched for me to conceive. Modern Mythology says that Adam spoke with the God(s) about Lilith, asking for her companionship once more. God sent three angels to Lilith to return her to Adam. Lilith refused and God placed a curse upon her saying that each of the children she bore would die. Lilith reversed this curse and said that when a child was brought into the world without the mark of the three angels that tried to oppress her, that she would hold the keys to their birth and death. A compromise was met, and Lilith kept her word that if she saw an Amulet with the names of the Angels: Sensenoi, Samangalaph, and Sanoi about the child's neck that she would pass by and leave them be.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is all strange. Last night, as I was sleeping I was praying to Liltih. Over and over in my head this chant of, "Owl, Snake, Raven," kept flowing in and out of my mind. I believe those are her animals, to me. I haven't been working with Lilith for too long or too deeply. She has came to me in dreams as a lovely temptress, blood auburn hair, pale flesh, nearly vampiric, yes. Demonic? Nay. Not in my opinion. I believe that's a Christian thought tainting the waters. Lilith is Lilith, it's a name given to a Goddess, a Spirit, and energy-whatever she may be, I don't think it matters. She's real enough for most of us. That's the brownie point. The best way that I can describe Lilith, or the most accurate description I've seen so far is this excerpt taken from The Goddess Oracle--I have it hanging over my altar...

Lilith
I dance my life for myself,
I am whole,
I am complete,
I say what I mean,
and I mean what I say,
I dance the dark and the light,
The conscious and the unconscious,
The sane and the insane,
and I speak for myself,
Authentically,
With total conviction,
Without regard for how I might look,
All the parts of myself,
Flow into the whole,
All my divergent selves unite as one,
I listen to what needs to be heard,
I never make excuses,
I feel my feelings deeply and profoundly,
I never hide,
I live my sexuality,
To please myself and to pleasure others,
I express it as it needs to be expressed,
From the core of myself,
From the wholeness of my dance,
I am female,
I am sexual,
I am power,
I was greatly feared.

Hopefully, that enlightens some of you. I'm not in a mood to write too much tonight--I wrote all day while doing tons of research. My mind is too boggled!

Blessings to you each,
Nepheria.

P.S. I am so not spell checking this. Deal. :weirdsmil

[BrigidMoon]

Is it demon-ish to stand up and acknowledge your own power? Is it demon-ish to know yourself, as you TRULY are--not the masks that you present both to yourself and to the world? I don't think so. Male-dominated religions in the past have thought so...but She still lives on--in spite of her depictions.

I say as a Witch and a Female--every woman could stand a bit of work with Lilith to help them discover who and what they can truly be. Of course, this is just my opinion...She isn't for everyone.

Elise

Awesome information and good point! We're not demons for taking back our what's rightluflly ours in bad situations. We're not demons for knowing who we truly are and sometimes it ain't pretty but it's the truth. I'm going to research more and see how I can work with her!

[Nepheria]

I agree it's not demon-ish. At All. I guess, for some, Lilith can teach you to harness your power. She's taught me a lot so far, even though it's been through subtle lessons. One, she's helped me with my confidence. I used to be one of those girls that loathed and feared making eye contact with strangers. Now, It's to the point where I am the last to look away if I feel challenged. Lilith really isn't a main Patron Goddess for me. I'm dedicated to 'Morrigan.' They're a lot alike though. If you need a push to stand up for yourself. . .They'll give it to you whether you like it or not. One moment you're passive, the next you're fighting for your voice like no other. :-D

Both have very strong energies-and work on their own agendas. Even Mothers have a Warrior Side, all it takes is tapping into that. I can guarantee, the journey most Deities will set before you will be difficult, you will ask why in the midst of tears, you will tremble-I made the mistake of asking Morrigan to give me strength. She is teaching me harshly, but it's only 'cause she loves me. ;-) So far, it's worked. I've grown stronger. Some will fear walking this path, but in the darkness you must realize that you are the light. They will teach you to face the cold realities, and how to find the light within yourself even when you feel as if you have been consumed by utter darkness.

They are within you-Listen.

Blessings,
Nepheria.

[Anubis]

you all say Demon like it's a bad thing!
I rather like the Lady!

[MorningDove030202]

Is it demon-ish to stand up and acknowledge your own power? Is it demon-ish to know yourself, as you TRULY are--not the masks that you present both to yourself and to the world? I don't think so. Male-dominated religions in the past have thought so...but She still lives on--in spite of her depictions.

I say as a Witch and a Female--every woman could stand a bit of work with Lilith to help them discover who and what they can truly be. Of course, this is just my opinion...She isn't for everyone.

Elise

For the record, I never said she was a demon, I've just heard some things in her mythology about killing children..... And I don't want an entity like that invoked in my house. I think Athena who adopted a child from Gaia is a much better role modle for me and my son.
Dove

[Morning Star]

Lilith: What Dagny Taggert would be were she a goddess...

[~Elise~]

For the record, I never said she was a demon, I've just heard some things in her mythology about killing children..... And I don't want an entity like that invoked in my house. I think Athena who adopted a child from Gaia is a much better role modle for me and my son.
Dove

I know that you never said she was a demon...BUT also my point was that if you'd taken the time to actually look a bit deeper, she doesn't kill children. There really isn't a reason to fear her, at least on that count.

This next part is not directed personally at YOU--just at the attitude I see in a lot of people; someone hears something bad about a person, deity, demon, whatever and they take it as fact-they don't go ask the person about it directly or do any research on their own about the deity or whatever.

I am a huge person for research, research, research--esp. when it comes to my students. One of my students had made a general statement like you'd made but about Kali. I had her go research and do a report on her. Kali is now her Matron and has helped her face her fears and overcome them, among other things. It is an awesome thing to see.

Elise

[~Elise~]

Both have very strong energies-and work on their own agendas. Even Mothers have a Warrior Side, all it takes is tapping into that. I can guarantee, the journey most Deities will set before you will be difficult, you will ask why in the midst of tears, you will tremble-I made the mistake of asking Morrigan to give me strength. She is teaching me harshly, but it's only 'cause she loves me. ;-) So far, it's worked. I've grown stronger. Some will fear walking this path, but in the darkness you must realize that you are the light. They will teach you to face the cold realities, and how to find the light within yourself even when you feel as if you have been consumed by utter darkness.

They are within you-Listen.

Blessings,
Nepheria.

YES!!! I work with both, as well. Morrigan is my Matron. And yes, Mothers SHOULD have a Warrior side.

Your comment about fearing to walk the path and facing the cold realities is AWESOME. Gave me chills. That is what I try to teach to my students. I lose a few along the way--but for those who continue--it is well worth the journey and I'm honored to have had a slight hand in leading them that way.

You have to know the Shadow before you recognize the Light.

Rock on, sister!

Elise

[halfwaynowhere]

I have this book, Encyclopedia of Things That Never Were... Here is its description of Lilith:

The Queen of the Night, but also known as Lili or Lilu which means 'monster of the night'. Jehovah created her out of mud to be Adam's first wife, but her soul was marred in the making and she gave birth only to evil spirits. Eventually she deserted Adam to join Satan's henchmen, and Jehovah created her replacement by fashioning Eve out of one of Adam's ribs.
Lilith is a woman of ageless sinister beauty, marred by the coarse black hairs smothering her otherwise shapely legs. She is so ashamed of these that she always keeps them covered. By the time any man discovers the reality it is too late for him to be repelled by this flaw.
Probably Lilith is the original vampire, whose tainted touch has been passed on from one unfortunate to another during countless centuries. She has the vampirish ability to pass through any kind of obstruction and manifest herself on the other side, either for a feast of blood or to seduce sleeping men into somnambular intercourse, from which they awaken as exhausted as though they had been drained by a vampire. Also she has an unpleasant habit of acting as an invisible attendant on couples making love during the night, so that she may steal some semen which she will conjure int new demons.
She hates children because her own were so repulsive, and often tries to pervert their nature or even to destroy them.
Any man who fears midnight seduction by Lilith should follow the sipl practice of writing 'Adam and Eve may enter herein but not Lilith the Queen' upon the door or wall of his bedroom.

I'm not sure how true to the story any of this may be, but its still pretty interesting.

[Nepheria]

Yes, we each have differing information. What we find on websites and in text books can be very helpful. Yet, the most help we will receive is by listening to the Divine from within. What is she to each of us personally? What does she look like from our perspective? How does her energy feel? What has she helped each of us personally as individuals accomplish or come to recognize? In my opinion, the 'True' face of the Goddess is not written on a line, or in text, those can be helpful, yes. The true face--it is invisible, it is the words between the lines. It is what our hearts whisper to us. Be it in an altered state, be it by a sign given to us from nature.

As I said before-If you have any interest in working with any Deity-Ask them, they shall reveal to you what you need to know about them. Get to know them personally. Speak to others about their experience with this Deity. However, remember, experience like people is unique. I know the experience I've had with Lilith, Hecate, Morrigan, Isis, etc...Is going to differ from what another person's experience has been. How we know the Gods and Goddesses is by what they show us, by what History has shown us-I'm a firm believer that sometimes history shouldn't taint what's to come, or what is now.

I will say this--If you're considering her as a Patron/Matron...You will know it is her. In my opinion, Patrons/Matrons are a part of you. They have placed a silken string to create the web of who you are and who you shall become in your spirit. This string seems to resonate like a chord being plucked when you've found the answer. It's a sort of dawning. Again, this is a personal opinion formed through experience. :)

Think of it this way--How fun is it when you're interested in being friends with someone, yet only know this person by what another friend has said? It's impersonal. Make it personal if it's something you desire to do. I've seen so many people that are trying to find his or her Patron/Matron Deity, they keep going through what everyone else is telling them that their perspective of this Deity is knocked off board and seen through the eyes of someone else to some extent. It's like Grey Cat quoted, "Witchcraft is the mystery that cannot be explained, only experienced." Apply this to Deities.

That's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth. :)

Bright Blessings,
Nerpheria.

[Kern]

Im confused........
the Sumerians thought of her as evil,killing children,seducing men to have half demon(evil spirits)children etc etc,then The Jews(whose versions I dont acept no more than I accept their views of god or their teachings) added to it later on....So if she is evil(no matter if shes a demon or a goddess)why would any one want to call upon her.And according to Sumerian beliefs(where she originated)and The book "Gods, Demons, and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia,":
The male lilu and two females lilitu and ardat-lili are a sort of family group of demons.
They are not gods.

Whether or not she is thought of as a demon or a goddess is irrelevent,though in the Sumerian religion,she was a demon....she was evil/bad,not something to mess around with etc etc etc........Why would any one want to call upon a spirit that is known to destroy peoples lives?

I for one believe that bad spirits exist,for I have witnessed a possession before.This spirit being was not a goodie 2 shoes,it was mean.And I would never call upon a spirit that is known to destroy children and peoples lives.

[Nepheria]

Actually, from what I've read she was a Wind Spirit to the Sumerians-Now, to the Hebrews she was seen as Wicked, Evil, Tainted, Sinful...Much like Eve but merely "darker."
If you're really interested in finding out what the Sumerians viewed her as--I would recommend studying their lifestyles, their monarchy (It's one of the things they were known for), and their religion/mythology. All of these give a person the bigger picture.

By the way--What do you think demonized these spirits, entities, or Deities?

For years now, Christianity has called Paganism evil. They have told stories about Witches worshipping 'Satan'-Does this make it truth? Nay. It does not. I'm not trying to say there's anything wrong with what people wish to believe, but the Horned God is no 'Satan.'

Hopefully, you get the gist of what I'm saying--even if that was a bit of a metaphor.

I will say-Lilith is not evil. Not for me. I'm not going to blame S.I.D.S. on her because somehow, somewhere down the road someone bad mouthed her so that others would A. Fear her, B. Dislike her.

Blessings,
Nepheria.

[Kern]

Actually, from what I've read she was a Wind Spirit to the Sumerians-Now, to the Hebrews she was seen as Wicked, Evil, Tainted, Sinful...Much like Eve but merely "darker."
If you're really interested in finding out what the Sumerians viewed her as--I would recommend studying their lifestyles, their monarchy (It's one of the things they were known for), and their religion/mythology. All of these give a person the bigger picture.

By the way--What do you think demonized these spirits, entities, or Deities?

For years now, Christianity has called Paganism evil. They have told stories about Witches worshipping 'Satan'-Does this make it truth? Nay. It does not. I'm not trying to say there's anything wrong with what people wish to believe, but the Horned God is no 'Satan.'

Hopefully, you get the gist of what I'm saying--even if that was a bit of a metaphor.

I will say-Lilith is not evil. Not for me. I'm not going to blame S.I.D.S. on her because somehow, somewhere down the road someone bad mouthed her so that others would A. Fear her, B. Dislike her.

Blessings,
Nepheria.
I agree and I AM TRYING TO find out more about her.I am trying to weed out all the Hebrewism and Xtianazation from her stories,but that hard.I am only concerned as to what she was to the Sumerians.
A female demon of the night who supposedly flies around searching for newborn children either to kidnap or strangle them. Also, she sleeps with men to seduce them into propagating demon sons. Legends told about Lilith are ancient. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lilith.html
But it appears that no matter what the source she was looked upon as evil or bad.Not including the modern sources.

[Nepheria]

Tell you what, I'll try to see what I can find from other sources. I'll go on my own research witch hunt. :D Personally, I think that Sumerian and Hebrew Myth is getting a bit mixed and tossed out as the same information from the sources you're getting. But oh well, I'll see what I can find. :)

Nepheria.

[~Elise~]

I posted some links about Her earlier in the thread--did you check those out. There are more out there.

*sigh* Evil--boy does that word get over-used. I, too, have seen possession and have performed an exorcism...but I still say Evil is over-used. If the Xtian and Hebrew sources are saying something/someone is evil that ought to be a clue to go looking for your own info...chances are it/they are not.
Is Lilith light and fluff? No. Is She Dark? yes, but that does NOT mean evil. Crone is dark-Shadow is dark. We need both light and dark to survive.

Lilith, as stated earlier, will help you claim your own power, your own sexuality *gasp*, your voice that comes from deep within the dark corners of your soul. You know, that part of yourself that Society has told you is not talked about, only whispered about in dark alleys...the part you only dream about now.

I dare ya...in fact, I double-dog dare ya.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

[Kern]

I posted some links about Her earlier in the thread--did you check those out. There are more out there.

*sigh* Evil--boy does that word get over-used. I, too, have seen possession and have performed an exorcism...but I still say Evil is over-used. If the Xtian and Hebrew sources are saying something/someone is evil that ought to be a clue to go looking for your own info...chances are it/they are not.
Is Lilith light and fluff? No. Is She Dark? yes, but that does NOT mean evil. Crone is dark-Shadow is dark. We need both light and dark to survive.

Lilith, as stated earlier, will help you claim your own power, your own sexuality *gasp*, your voice that comes from deep within the dark corners of your soul. You know, that part of yourself that Society has told you is not talked about, only whispered about in dark alleys...the part you only dream about now.

I dare ya...in fact, I double-dog dare ya.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise
Yes I read them thanks for posting them.....
I AGREE.......I am not concerned with the Judeo-Xtian views of evil or their views of pagan deities or religion.Evil is evil(the act of it),if a deity or spirit does such things as killing people,destroying their lives etc etc(from the Sumerian sources I have read),IMO they are evil.If a deity has a dark side(not evil)then thats okay theres a big difference between having a dark side and being evil.For example Hitler was evil....I have a dark side,but I am not evil.Killing someone in self defense is not evil,but killing to just kill is evil.Having sex is not evil,but rape is. etc etc etc.

[Kern]

Tell you what, I'll try to see what I can find from other sources. I'll go on my own research witch hunt. :D Personally, I think that Sumerian and Hebrew Myth is getting a bit mixed and tossed out as the same information from the sources you're getting. But oh well, I'll see what I can find. :)

Nepheria.
That would be great if its no bother.

[Mouse]

I thought she was created with adam, twins joined at the back... or thats what i had read anyway.. has anyone elce heard of this?

[Amadore]

I once read somewhere that after Lilith left Adam, 3 angels (Sansanui, Senoi, and Samangluf) were sent off to find her and bring her back... and well, they found Lilith by the red sea, living with a bunch of lustful demons.

If Lilith wasn't evil or demonic, why would she choose to escape and live with a bunch of sex-obsessed demons? I personally think that she did that so that she could have some itty-bitty demonic babies to get back at Adam, but then again, I certainly am not the sharpest tool in the shed :lol:

(Heh, all of this sort of sounds like a soap opera..)

[~Elise~]

Yes I read them thanks for posting them.....
I AGREE.......I am not concerned with the Judeo-Xtian views of evil or their views of pagan deities or religion.Evil is evil(the act of it),if a deity or spirit does such things as killing people,destroying their lives etc etc(from the Sumerian sources I have read),IMO they are evil.If a deity has a dark side(not evil)then thats okay theres a big difference between having a dark side and being evil.For example Hitler was evil....I have a dark side,but I am not evil.Killing someone in self defense is not evil,but killing to just kill is evil.Having sex is not evil,but rape is. etc etc etc.

Bingo--you got it concerning evil.

I'll wait and see what Nepharia posts, I'm sure it will answer your questions. She really seems to know her stuff.

Elise

[~Elise~]

I once read somewhere that after Lilith left Adam, 3 angels (Sansanui, Senoi, and Samangluf) were sent off to find her and bring her back... and well, they found Lilith by the red sea, living with a bunch of lustful demons.

If Lilith wasn't evil or demonic, why would she choose to escape and live with a bunch of sex-obsessed demons? I personally think that she did that so that she could have some itty-bitty demonic babies to get back at Adam, but then again, I certainly am not the sharpest tool in the shed :lol:

(Heh, all of this sort of sounds like a soap opera..)

Escape? ummm...no. She CHOSE not to submit to Adam and considered herself his equal...how is that evil or demonic? She left.

Ya know what--believe what you want...work with Her or not...it doesn't affect Her one way or the other. Fall for the soap opera schtick if you want to--it's more exciting to believe, anyway. In the end--it is only yourself you are hurting by not taking the time to research this or anything else for yourself.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

[Amadore]

Escape? ummm...no. She CHOSE not to submit to Adam and considered herself his equal...how is that evil or demonic? She left.

Ya know what--believe what you want...work with Her or not...it doesn't affect Her one way or the other. Fall for the soap opera schtick if you want to--it's more exciting to believe, anyway. In the end--it is only yourself you are hurting by not taking the time to research this or anything else for yourself.

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

Woah, relax!! No reason to get uptight about anything :) I didn't even mention in my post that I wanted to work with her, because I don't. I was simply sharing information that I read about her. Calm down!! :ahhhh:

[~Elise~]

Woah, relax!! No reason to get uptight about anything :) I didn't even mention in my post that I wanted to work with her, because I don't. I was simply sharing information that I read about her. Calm down!! :ahhhh:

I'm not upset--or uptight. I know you didn't mention that.

It is your choice on what or whom to work with.

My point is don't repeat gossip that you have heard from somewhere else without taking the time to verify it. This could apply to demons, god/desses, or your worst enemy or best friend. Yes, that she escaped and had sex with demons is what is written by some...but for those who choose to look past the surface, there is more.

Elise...who is not upset or tense...just trying to open some minds, if possible

[Nepheria]

All right. I spent sometime last night "trying" to get some research done on Lilith. My attempts to find any Sumerian Religious texts wasn't very successful. I did find a passage in the bible which most claim to be speaking about Lilith. Off the top of my head it's (I think) Isiah 34:14. However, if I recall the book of Isiah correctly, you'll have to read the entire story before that to give a bigger picture. I didn't have time to do that last night. I'll read through it later on this evening to see if it applies to Lilith-and I'll figure out the how so part. I'm going to go up to the Library today and I'm going to flip through their reference books. If I recall correctly they've got and awesome book on Mythology and Gods and Goddesses from the Old Religions there.

Don't begin to think that this is a bother. I'm benefiting from this search as well. :) So far though, I've been able to somewhat connect Lilith with Erishkigal. I'll explain that later though.

Now-on the evil VS good thing. It's all about perspective. I do NOT believe in absolute evil or absolute good. We are the Yin and the Yang, the feminine and the masculine, the dark and the light, etc., etc.

I'm beginning to feel like someone just made Lilith up and incorporated her into their practices. I'm on a search for some actual historical data here, having a hard time finding that. Just because it's on a website or in a book doesn't make it true--but I'm searching for some sort of, 'proof,' that is physical. That does not reflect that she is real or not. She's real to me. I just want to know how this entity came to be, where she came from, etc.

Righteo. Back to my Witch Hunt. :D

Blessings,
Nepheria.

[Nepheria]

I thought I should share this:

http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/khephframes.html

-Neph.

[Nepheria]

http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/421602 I would recommend reading this. It has some good statements.

The library only had a very limited selection of Gods and Goddesses reference books. I'll just jot down the information I got.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Guide to the Gods by Marjorie Leach:

Lilith: The Goddess of Evil, Of Death, Of Night, was the head of the she-demons of the Hebrews-the "embodiment of everything that is evil and dangerous in the sexual realm." Near East

I'd just like to add this bit of sarcasm--We can only imagine what the Hebrews thought was evil during sex. In general, most of them thought sex was sin, lust, etc. Therefore, how accurate by our accounts is this information? Besides, during the time the Hebrews spent in history, nearly everything was dangerous and death was around every corner. Bad water, disease, etc. What applied in the old days has changed nowadays. During those times, there was no such thing as Woman's Rights. Women were not always treated fairly or well for that matter.

The next page I looked up in the same book was on Lilitu:

Lilitu: Armaean demon of the night. Near East.

Mmm, Yeah, thanks for doing your research before you wrote the book! Bloody Bludger.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Mythology by Arthur Cotterell & Rachel Storm.

(I found this bit near a picture of Adam and Eve. On the next page was more information on the Deity herself, however, I didn't write all of that down. I've got the page copied around here somewhere from another Witch Hunt I had gone on. I'll have to find it though and pray it's not torn to shreds.)

Lilith: The serpent in the garden of Eden is frequently portrayed with the face of Lilith, who in Hebrew legend was Adam's first wife. She considered herself his equal and left him and Eden-rather than submit to him. She was often depicted as winged, with the body of a snake, and was said to be the temptress of Eve. She acquired the character of a wicked demon who killed newborn babies and was the enemy of men.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So far, a lot of the Lilith stuff I am finding is merely on her association with the Hebrews and their Religion. Apparently though, the Hebrews had gotten her identity from some other pantheon. Was it the Sumerians? I'd like to think so but I'm not finding too much on it.

It could be possible that originally, Lilith was a Sumerian Goddess that the Hebrews took and well, butchered into something Demonic and evil. Yet, She could have been known by another name to the Sumerians. Even though most say she was known as Lilitu-Is this true? I'm going to try and explain my theory on Lilith and Erishkigal.

What do the two have in common? Both have been called Demons. Both were once called Sky Goddesses. The story of Inanna and Erishkigal can be seen similar to the story of Lilith and Eve. Erishkigal forces her 'light' sister to confront her shadowself-Lilith did much the same to Eve by telling her to eat the Fruit of Knowledge. Both acted as guides to lift the veils from their sisters eyes, so to speak. If you read the stories, you should be able to pick up on what I'm talking about.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.awakenedwoman.com/lilith.htm

http://faculty.pittstate.edu/~knichols/goddess.html (You have to scroll down the page to find the essays and such on Eve/Lilith.)

"I went there of my own free will.
I went there in my finest gown,
With my rarest Jewels
With my Queen of Heaven crown.
In the Underworld
At each of the Seven Gates
I was stripped Seven times
Of all I thought I was
Till I stood bare in who I really am."
- Inanna, Goddess for Embracing the Shadows

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Anyhow, if there's any further information that jumps out--I'll post it. Until then, I think I've done my half. My mind is boggled enough. :D

Blessings,
Nepheria.

[~Elise~]

What awesome work you've done! Way to go!

Elise

[KaliHobbit]

I once read somewhere that after Lilith left Adam, 3 angels (Sansanui, Senoi, and Samangluf) were sent off to find her and bring her back... and well, they found Lilith by the red sea, living with a bunch of lustful demons.

If Lilith wasn't evil or demonic, why would she choose to escape and live with a bunch of sex-obsessed demons? I personally think that she did that so that she could have some itty-bitty demonic babies to get back at Adam, but then again, I certainly am not the sharpest tool in the shed :lol:

(Heh, all of this sort of sounds like a soap opera..)

Hmmm....that story sounds strikingly biblical to me. Isn't funny how almost every powerful women/Goddess associated with biblical times has become demonized? Take for example Ishtar who became the Whore of Babylon. If you honestly believe or choose to promote those types of stories rather then see them as the anti-women propaganda that they are, it's a good thing you don't want to work with Her.

[Khuinaset]

Hmmm....that story sounds strikingly biblical to me. Isn't funny how almost every powerful women/Goddess associated with biblical times has become demonized? Take for example Ishtar who became the Whore of Babylon. If you honestly believe or choose to promote those types of stories rather then see them as the anti-women propaganda that they are, it's a good thing you don't want to work with Her.

Was it *really* nessecary to rebuke her again after pearls already did so, and insult her in the process? She got the story wrong. She was corrected. There's no need to be rude to her.

[enchancea]

I just got done reading a book called "God, Creation and Tools for Life" by Sylvia Browne, so some of you might not take this seriously but she does mention Lilith a bit towards the end.
She says the Lilith governs the first lower level of creation (which is suppose to be closest to our level) where faeries, elves, gnomes and so on reside.
And that she lives in the underworld, which is a beautiful place almost like a fairyland.
And that she goes about the world doing wondrous good deeds. Her main focus is to take care of children. And she has been in a terrible mess because there are so many missing children.
And when you are dealing with a child of any age who might be in trouble, to call on Lilith because she is the caretaker, the Beloved one of children.
And she also protects animals. So if you have a animal who needs protection of is sick then call on Lilith.
Also she goes on to say that if you are having trouble with nightmares to ask Lilith to "cement" that door.
She mentions her more in the book and calls her the Fairy Queen and talks about how wonderful she is and how ignorance has distorted her image by making her appear to be something dark.
Dont know if that info means anything to anyone but I thought I might share it.

[Kern]

I thought I should share this:

http://www.lilitu.com/lilith/khephframes.html

-Neph.
Thanks Nephera! Here is a quote from that link.
In Sumerian, the word "Lil" means "Air." Enlil, for instance, was the Lord (En) of Air (Lil). The oldest known term relating to Lilith would be the Sumerian word "Lili" (plural "Lilitu"), which seems to imply the same definition as our word "spirit." In many ancient cultures, the same word for "air" or "breath" would also be used for "spirit." The very word "spiritus" is one such example. The Hebrew "ruach" is another. Therefore, the Lilitu were either a specific type of demon, or were simply "spirits" in general.

Normally, Lilith is thought to have been a Sumerian Succubus. And, in fact, there was such a creature in Sumer-Babylonia who surely had it's part in the Hebrew conception of Lilith. This being was known as the "Ardat Lili." "Ardatu" was a term that described a young woman of marrying age. Thus, the Ardat Lili was a young female spirit—the Succubus—the demoness credited with "night-hag syndrome." Most of us have experienced this once or twice—where the victim awakens to find that he is being restrained and paralyzed by an unseen force (this is a "chemical malfunction" of the body). She is also said to cause erotic dreams, thus robbing the male of semen and spiritual vitality. Of course, there is also a male version of this—the incubus—but I will not be addressing this creature here.

It is also interesting to note that the Sumerian word for "wantonness" was "Lulu." The word for "luxuriousness" was "Lalu." Also, the very word for "evil" was "Limnu." This has an obvious relation to the word Lili (and Ardat Lili specifically); not just in the similarity of pronunciation and spelling, but also in the very definition of the words. Keep in mind that these ancient languages did not possess the specific definition of our modern words. A single word would indicate any one of a number of related concepts.
It was these Ardat Lili(more than one, that was a female spirits or demoness'.And the term Lilith or Lilitu simply means spirit and can refer to any female spirit.Enil was a male spirit.
The concept of Lilith as a seperate goddess/ didnt come into play until after the Jews mangled it.

Though some also confuse her with Lilu, the lilu-demons were actually male (Scurlock, 1991). Though Lilith is frequently accused of being a child-killer, it was the lilu, not the lilitu demon which preyed on children! "Men who had died young became lilu-demons: '[Young man] who always sits, silent and [al]one, [in] the street; [young] man who cries bitterly in the grip of his death-demon; young man to whose fate silence was attached; young man to whom his mother, crying, gave birth in the street; young man whose body grief has burnt; young man whose god has evil[ly] ound him; young man whose goddess has cut him off; young man who never married a wife, never raised a child; young man who never experienced sexual pleasure in his wife's lap1; young man who never removed a garment in his wife's lap; young man who was driven out of the house of his father in law'…it was presumably because he longed for fulfillment as a father that the lilu-demon preyed on suckling children" (Scurlock, 1991).

Like the Sumerian wind demon found in the Sumerian king list dating around 2400 BCE (Patai, 1967) and its later Babylonian counterpart, Lilith was regarded as a succubus, or female version of the incubus. In ancient times demons could be either good or bad -- those who practiced Babylonian oil magic, for example, used oil to inquire of the gods or the demons what the future would bring, or to ask them to fulfill a certain wish (Daiches, 1913).
The male Lilu were the ones that killed children not the female ones...hmm 1 point for Lilith.The Babylonians turned her into a succubus.http://www.awakenedwoman.com/lilith.htm

The figure of Lilith, daughter of the goddess Mehitabel, is a very complex one. Her image differs from culture to culture, becoming more and more demoniac as time goes on and patriarchal values begin to gain dominance.

In ancient Sumeria [B]she was regarded as the "left hand" of the Great Goddess Inanna. She assisted her by bringing the men to the goddess' temples, to worship her by participating in "Tantric" rites with the temple-women. As a result of this role, Lilith became known as seducer of men and as harlot.

Among the Semitic speaking peoples of Mesopotamia she was first a figure similar to Lil, a Sumerian goddess of destructive winds and storms.
http://www.yoni.com/bitchf/lilith.shtml

[mucgwyrt]

Thanks Nephera! Here is a quote from that link.

It was this Ardat Lili that was a female spirit or demoness.And the term Lilith or Lilitu simply means spirit and can refer to any spirit,hence Enlil which is not the same as Lilith.
The concept of Lilith as a goddess didnt come into play until after the Jews mangled it.


The male Lilu were the ones that killed children not the female ones...hmm 1 point for Lilith.The Babylonians turned her into a succubus.http://www.awakenedwoman.com/lilith.htm
I did *hear* that Lillith is supposed to be the mother of all demons, according to the bible.
I also believe I *heard* that Cain is the father of all demons, according to somewhere else in the bible.
Go figure on what that means... :whatgives :lol:

[Kern]

I did *hear* that Lillith is supposed to be the mother of all demons, according to the bible.
I also believe I *heard* that Cain is the father of all demons, according to somewhere else in the bible.
Go figure on what that means... :whatgives :lol:
Yup thats how the stories go,thats why I dont accept TW that uses Tubal Cain as their founder.Because according to some sources Tubal Cain(not the same as Cain and Abel) is a nick name for Nimrod,who was also later given the nickname of Tammuz and Baal.Thus the founder of the worlds first pagan religious system that was against Yahweh.I dont follow the Judeo-Xtian concepts and dont care for those pagan systems that draw from biblical characters.This is why I am trying to find the non Judiazed/ztianised views of Lilith.

[Nepheria]

Actually, that Cain bit sounds like something that came from The Book of Nod. Cain was the first, 'Vamprye.' It's all fiction, really.

You know, if you're looking up stuff that says 'bad' things about any Deity or Spirit, you're more than likely going to be able to find it. I am not going to keep saying over and over that Lilith is NOT in any way shape or form a demon. I don't really care what references have to tell me--I've experienced her energy personally. That personal experience has given me more knowledge about her than any book or quote could.

Let her be whatever she is to you. If you wish to believe that she is a Succubus, go for it.

Blessings,
Nepheria.

[DamienDeville]

Very Interesting topic here.I agree with Kern here on the points about not accepting the Abrahamic views of Lilith or any subject in fact.The links that you all have given when you take the Judiazed versions out seem to imply that Lilith/Lilitu was a spirit and may have been an aspect of Inanna and it appears that the Sumerians didnt view demons as always being evil as with the Abrahamic views.The Lilu the male demons(Sumerian version) were the ones that killed infants.And it appears that Adatu/Adat-Lili(a Babylonian version) and Lilith were seprate beings.See And, in fact, there was such a creature in Sumer-Babylonia who surely had it's part in the Hebrew conception of Lilith. This being was known as the "Ardat Lili." "Ardatu" was a term that described a young woman of marrying age. Thus, the Ardat Lili was a young female spirit—the Succubus—the demoness credited with "night-hag syndrome." it was the Jews that made Lilith into a demoness,not the original Sumerians.So if someone wants to view LILITH as a goddess/demoness that is pure evil they are accepting the Juduazed version of her and not the original view of the Sumerians. I tend to agree with Nepheria here.Lilith is not a demon in the since that the Jews Made Her to be.No more than what someone else mentioned that Cernunnos is not the devil of the Abrahamic faiths.
LILITH and THE BABYLONIAN ARDAT/ARDAT LILI are not the same beings.

[Nepheria]

"LILITH and THE BABYLONIAN ARDAT/ARDAT LILI are not the same beings."

Agreed. Thank you for pointing that out. :) That's like saying someone's real name starts with JES-comparing that to Jesus and trying to say that they descended from Jesus just because of that, is all wrong. It is merely a title for another being, that is not to say that it originated or has anything to do with the Lady Lilith.

Yeah, so Jesus comes in handy for some things. Who knew?

Blessings,
Nepheria.

[KaliHobbit]

Was it *really* nessecary to rebuke her again after pearls already did so, and insult her in the process? She got the story wrong. She was corrected. There's no need to be rude to her.

Your right, I'm sorry I was rude. I used her as a scape goat, I'm just so tired of this type of stuff!

[DamienDeville]

"LILITH and THE BABYLONIAN ARDAT/ARDAT LILI are not the same beings."

Agreed. Thank you for pointing that out. :) That's like saying someone's real name starts with JES-comparing that to Jesus and trying to say that they descended from Jesus just because of that, is all wrong. It is merely a title for another being, that is not to say that it originated or has anything to do with the Lady Lilith.

Yeah, so Jesus comes in handy for some things. Who knew?

Blessings,
Nepheria.
Exactly! :devil: you could also use the example of the Hebrew word elohim this word is also used in other places in the bible to describe other gods.It doesnt mean that they are all the same god.Someone used the term elohah somewhere.That is the femine form of elohim.Elohim was used in Gen 1 and 2 when referring to the god that created humans.

[Kern]

Thanks DamienDeville thats what I was trying to say.

[DamienDeville]

Thanks DamienDeville thats what I was trying to say.
YW

[malltynos]

My experiences with Lilith have been nothing but positive - though I think the confusion as to whether she is a goddess/demon etc is a matter of choice. It also pays to remember that one cultures gods are the invading cultures demons! In all near eastern cultures there is an archetype known as queen of the night, though whether she is lilith, erishkigal or even innanna is not clear. However, I have recently seen the original stele in a local museum and I have to say that the power emanating from it is quite phenomenal.

[arctic splash]

Isn't it true that many deities or demons that are looked down upon, or given a lesser role, were actually the great gods of earlier civilisations? A good case for this, at least, could be made by examining Celtic mythology. I don't know the origin of Lilith, but I think she's very possibly not Hebrew in origin, but a greater goddess of an earlier civilisation.

I tend to wonder about this in reference to the dwarves of Norse myth... they were full of greed and made out of maggots! Were Bifur, Bombur, and Gandalf actually the gods of an earlier society?

[DamienDeville]

Isn't it true that many deities or demons that are looked down upon, or given a lesser role, were actually the great gods of earlier civilisations? A good case for this, at least, could be made by examining Celtic mythology. I don't know the origin of Lilith, but I think she's very possibly not Hebrew in origin, but a greater goddess of an earlier civilisation.

I tend to wonder about this in reference to the dwarves of Norse myth... they were full of greed and made out of maggots! Were Bifur, Bombur, and Gandalf actually the gods of an earlier society?
Yes that is true like someone else said one persons gods are another persons demons.
Lilith was originally from Sumerian culture,then she and other liltu were compressed into one(ardat-lili) by the Babylonians,The the Jews adopted her from them and called her Lilith.
As for the dwarves,that could be the case but I am not an expert on Norse Mythos so you would have to ask someone that is more knowledgeable.

[Sage Rainsong]

I want to know if anyone knows about this sort of thing. I had a vivd dream. This woman whom I lothe was reading out of a book and she says the only way for me to obtain true power was to be purified in the fires of Lilith. Is fire associated with Lilith usually (well besides the whole demon thing) Also if she was talking to me why would she pick someone that I hate?

[~Elise~]

if she was talking to me why would she pick someone that I hate?

To get your attention--and it seems like She did. Also, to let you know that it will not be easy. You will most probably have to give up comfortable ideas and patterns that you have slipped into and that will be something that you will 'hate' to do.

Also--why do you hate this person? You probably need to examine that. Why are you giving someone that much power over you?

JMO and YMMV,

Elise

PS--hope my PM the other night helped.