That's Enough!!!!! **everybody Read**

[Sequoia]

THAT'S IT THAT'S ABSOLUTELY ENOUGH!!

If I hear ONE MORE ARGUMENT here at mystic wicks, I'm going to rip out my hair! I may not even come back!!

This is realy getting to me folks. Not three months ago people were respectful of other's ideas, opinions, etc. Now it seems nearly everone has gotten into an argument, even myself. And I honestly don't like it. I don't know what is going on here, whether it's a dark streak period of time or bad luck or WHAT, but I don't know how much longer I can take it.

WE
ARE
A
FAMILY!

Can we please start acting like it again?

It's gotten so that I don't even like checking who's replied or looking at new forums anymore. . . almost always there's a lemon of SOME kind waiting for me, and I'm running out of sugar for lemonaide.

C'mon people. Grow up. I don't care if you read the rules or not. I don't care if you hate my guts for saying this or not. I don't care if you think you're right and wrong. You could be entirely right in your idea and the other could be undeniably wrong. But that doesn't mean you can call them names, turn their words on them, lie, insult them in ANY form. . . . all I'm asking is a little politeness and respect. If you're upset with them show it perhaps by being more formal instead of more informal? That's how I react, and the politeness can keep it from escalating from a dissagreement to an argument.

I'm just so sick of all the arguing. This used to be a peaceful place, and now it's become tiring and dare I say it it's even becominng annoying. And I LOVE this place!

So please, let's all get together to make it a nicer place, ok? Post nicely, politely, even FORMALLY if you have to. Just don't argue, don't belittle, just give people the respect you'd like to have. And if you don't care about how you're treated? well. . . although I'm sure you probably do somewhere inside you, please at least give them the respect you think they want. It'll avoid a lot of bad situations and complications.

You don't have to do what I say. I'm not site god, I'm not your mother, I"m not God or whomever you choose to worship (if you do). I'm just a friend of yours. I'm just a member of this community.

. . . but I hope that's enough.

[Myst]

Mmhm, never had a disagreement with your family?

[Sequoia]

I have, Willow, and we all worked together to resolve it.

[Myst]

Yup. That's how it goes.

[Rævyn Cigány]

*Rae stands and bows to Puma* Brava, bella....I could not have said it better myself. I for one applaud your eloquence and I agree with everything that you have said, including the part where you have tended to stay away because of the fighting...this is also one of the reasons I have not been around much. It is just too much. C'mon everyone, let us pool together and be a family again.

BB and Peace to all

Rae )0(

[Sequoia]

thanks, Rae *hug*

[Myst]

Mmhm. Ok this is my take on the subject. When I have a disagreement with a family member, for example, I just say "I disagree, this is why", and we can talk about it. Meanwhile, online, sometimes people can't effectively communicate meaning. You'll see someone go "this is what I think" and because the other person doesn't see the expression or tone of voice or misreads what's said, they might think "hey, you're attacking me" and attack the first person back. Then the first person gets mad, and isn't so happy when they have to try to explain themselves.
I think it's just normal human stuff that makes people get defensive like that. At least in real life you can notice the tone of voice and posture. Not online.

Not to mention, when you have a forum with thousands of strong minded people there's bound to be scuffles. Maybe resentment for having to "be nice" builds up, especially when half the time someone disagrees strongly they're told to "calm down". I know to me that means "you're upset and you shouldn't be, and I don't care to know why you are, just be quiet and relax". Sure, some people might mean that nicely and be genuinely concerned, but it tends to bug people (for instance, if I said you're overreacting amidst a long post of why I think you're wrong you'd probably get annoyed).

If your best friend or a family member was crying would you say "well gee, I don't think you have any right, stop crying"? I think your first response would be "hey, you're crying, what can I do to make you feel better?". If you were angry at your best friend or a family member would you pick apart the way they used a word in front of all of your friends, or privately say "hey, I have a problem, let's talk about this"? In this case, would saying "calm down" in a public place or asking in private how you can help be better?

Not to mention, we aren't family. We're a bunch of strangers chatting on a forum. If we were a family, we'd have similar values, morals, beliefs, and genes! We just don't, we're very different people. Too often we try to enforce our morals on others who just don't agree. Maybe we should concentrate on treating people like we've just met them.

As Pagans we know that light and dark balance. We know the importance of dark - for without it what would light be? Yet, our first impulse is to suppress that dark stuff instead of dealing with it. Anger is human. We can argue all day long about why people are disagreeing and whether they have a right to, as well as whether they should be angry, or we can let them be angry (as long as they stay within MW rules) and say "ok, I disagree" and accept that and move on.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to cordial. I'm saying people get angry, and that's just the way it is. Trying to suppress the dark only lets it get stronger. Think about Hecate, Lilith, the Morrigan, the Lord of the Hunt, Tiamat, and forest fires (and the plants that don't grow until after a fire has ravaged a forest).

Try to meld thousands of different opinions with the kind of misinterpretation that is impossible to avoid in an online forum and thousands of people assuming their own morals and values are understood and followed by everyone and you get anger sometimes.

[loopy]

hear hear Willow! :nonono:

[Sequoia]

Willow Raven - Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be trying to find any reason you can to actually CONDONE arguments. . . please do correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Arguing may be a natural thing, but so is cats marking their territory. It might work for the cat but does anybody like coming home to a house that smells like feline urine?

My point is that, although dissagreements are natural, there is NO reason for people to go around jumping the gun, getting upset, making fun of eachother, etc etc on the excuse that it's "human nature." Because yes, while it in many cases IS human nature, I should think that many of us aspire to go beyond such pettiness.

I don't understand why you think anyone here is proverbially telling people to stop crying when they're upset. No. If someone here was upset like that, I'm certain they'd get compassion. When someone is angry, if they talk about it in a respectful and logical way, then naturally some people are going to help them. Not everyone will. Perhaps they dissagree or don't think they can do anything that's fine. But I dislike the example you used, because I find it to be innacurate. Perhaps I misunderstood, would you like to re-phrase it or elaborate?

I'm sorry if you don't feel that we're family. . . I thought a lot of us did. Sorry for over-generalizing. I know that there are some of us who think we're family, and who wish to be close and happy together. If others don't, I'm fine with that. Nobody has to be.
Also: have you even looked at half of these people's families? They most certainly don't always have "similar values, morals, beliefs, and genes!" Many of them completely DISsagree with their family's values! I know that I don't hold similar views with my father on some things, I know from other's posts that they don't always agree with THEIR family. . . why would this community be any different? Perhaps you are lucky enough to have such a wonderful family, and I'm glad for that! It must be wonderful never arguing with your family or having to explain different viewpoints. . . It must be so nice. I wish I was that lucky.

I in no way am arguing that people don't get angry. In my opinion, that would be a silly thing to do. To me, anger seems obvious that it would be natural. It just happens, as you say.
As I said before, we should NOT try to just SURPRESS it, rather we should talk about it in a calm and logical fashion. You can be angry and not hurt others. I've done that before, so I know. It's a matter of self-restraint, and unfortunately ALL communities (that I know of) require that to interact with other people. And if someone has no self-restraint, then life is going to be very hard for them no matter what. I for one am not going to pamper them and shelter them. I was too sheltered myself. People need to know how to act in the real world, and this is just as real as anything else.

To EVERYONE! The people you post to are real. They have real ideas, opinions, and most of all REAL FEELINGS. If you say something cruel THEY WILL BE HURT. If you say something nice THEY WILL FEEL GOOD. This isn't just some playground where they're so far away they don't matter. Try to think when you post about things, ok folks? How would you feel if I treated you as you treat others? Would you feel nice, ok, or downright bad? It all comes back to that old addage: Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Isn't it just common sense?

[Myst]

We're not cats, we're humans.

See, again you're enforcing your morals on the rest of us. *You* think there's no reason for people to get upset, *You* think some of us aspire to go beyond such pettiness (also inferring *You* think it's petty), *You* think it's common sense and so on.

My crying example was another one to indicate how if you really consider a person family/friend then your response when they're having a strong emotional reaction would be to encourage them to talk about it and help them with it, not tell them it's not appropriate. Even if you think there's no reason for someone to be upset doesn't mean they shouldn't be.

Most families do have similar values, beliefs, etc. (notice I said most, not all). Everyone I know in real life does - not all the exact same beliefs, but if the parents believe in a basic need to treat people with respect usually they communicate that to their kids. Be nice to thy neighbour, etc. will often be passed down. My intention is not to suggest that all families always get along, to say the least. It is to point out that in general, when we come here your morals and principles aren't the same as someone else's, and probably are closer to your own families.

In the real world you have to deal with people having different morals and principles. Personally I don't think feeling angry about being called immature "petty", nor do I think I should make extra effort to be nice. That's just not how the world works. If that's your morals, that's great, I just don't think you're going to get far believing anyone else agrees with them or follows them.

Your first response is to comment on my behaviour - your first comment isn't "I believe this" it's "You do this". Again, I've been over-reacting or "on a hair trigger" or in this case "condoning arguments", because I strongly disagree with some things that have been said. Whether I condone arguments or not doesn't matter, and that's my point. Arguments happen. Even if I am, does it seem appropriate to question my behaviour in public when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand? Don't you think normally dissecting someone's behaviour or wording when it isn't on topic is going to be annoying? If I said you seem like a fluffbunny lately (and I'm not), would that be appreciated?

I guess I have two points here.

1. You can't expect others to follow your principles and morals, no matter how petty you think they are for not doing so
2. You can't force people not to get angry or upset by telling them they shouldn't be

[Mairwen]

HEAR HEAR, Willow!!!

[loopy]

Rock on, Willow lady. I agree 100%.

[Qabalarina]

One other thought...

We are not a family.

I have been on many lists and groups where people think just because a group of people share like interests they are "a family".

Thats BS. This is nothing against the original poster--this is a just a reality check. There are a few people that I really and genuinely like here at MW--none of whom I would call my family. I don't like hearing this word thrown about willy-nilly, because to me, family is sacred. And I may like this community, but its not sacred.

That said--anyone who thinks arguments within a community this size are going to go away . . .well . . .let me just say it ain't likely. There's nothing wrong with arguing. the trouble comes when neither side is willing to make *any concessions whatsoever--and that point, you have to be the bigger person and just *quit* fueling the fire. Just let it go.

But, people are gonna argue. That's the nature of a community as diverse as this. ARguing isn't bad--its when the communication breaks down between people and all you're left with is mud-slining and grand-stnaindg that it becomes a real issue.

[Jewlz]

Pesonally, I cant be stuffed reading all that everyone's written here (I havent got that much time right now)
But my opion is that...
Arguing is good without it we wouldnt know such things as "the Earth is round" Science would be No Where without arguements. But there is a line between b****'n and argueing. You sometimes have to agree to disagree.
Look on the positive side People! This Community has the lest amount of b****'n I have ever seen! For the huge amount of people that come here this site is SOOOO PEACEFUL! I have never come across a b**** fight. Compared to other sites of less people this site is amazing for how peaceful it is.
I think we should applaud the people that keep this comunity peaceful.

Jewlz.

Ps. sorry about the swearing, I couldnt think of a word that suited it more. Apologys.

[Sequoia]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
We're not cats, we're humans.

I never said we WERE cats, it was an example. A metaphore.


See, again you're enforcing your morals on the rest of
us. *You* think there's no reason for people to get upset,
*You* think some of us aspire to go beyond such pettiness (also
inferring *You* think it's petty), *You* think it's common sense
and so on.

I was stating my opinion, I emphasized that it was my opinion.
And yes, I DO think it's petty. That is my opinion. I
also DO think it's common sense. I may be wrong, I have stated
that many times, but also that it's MY opinion, not that
it was EVERYONE'S opinion. I fully admit that I sometimes
over-generalize. If anyone's insulted by that I do sincerely
apologize. I am stating what I personally belive, not what is
the end-all, be-all of everything there is.


My crying example was another one to indicate how if
you really consider a person family/friend then your response
when they're having a strong emotional reaction would be to
encourage them to talk about it and help them with it, not tell
them it's not appropriate. Even if you think there's no reason
for someone to be upset doesn't mean they shouldn't
be.

I never said if someone was upset then they shouldnt' be. I
completely understand being upset. What I said was that they
shouldn't take it out on others AKA if your angry you don't
nessicarily need to scream at the person you're angry with. You
can tell them your upset and why and what you'd like to do about
it. Sadness is different, it's fully understandable and ok to
cry. Everything is different, and the reactions can differ on
situations, as well. There is no Generic response, and I
apologize if you felt I was attempting to give one.



Most families do have similar values, beliefs, etc.
(notice I said most, not all). Everyone I know in real life
does - not all the exact same beliefs, but if the parents
believe in a basic need to treat people with respect usually
they communicate that to their kids. Be nice to thy neighbour,
etc. will often be passed down. My intention is not to suggest
that all families always get along, to say the least. It is to
point out that in general, when we come here your morals and
principles aren't the same as someone else's, and probably are
closer to your own families.

Yes, I do see your use of "most" not "all." Which I appreciate.
Also - this is what your experience has been. Everyone's is
different and just as valid, and what I state usually is based
upon my own experience. I fully acknowlage that others have not
lived my life, and therefore hold different views, beliefs,
ideas, opinions, etc. I am fascinated by, learn from, and am
enthralled with these other points of view. I feel lucky to be
able to hear what others have to say, and I value those
opinions, even if I do not agree with them.


In the real world you have to deal with people having
different morals and principles. Personally I don't think
feeling angry about being called immature "petty", nor do I
think I should make extra effort to be nice. That's just not
how the world works. If that's your morals, that's great, I
just don't think you're going to get far believing anyone else
agrees with them or follows them.

Well, for one thing: I have not said that being angry about
being called immature was petty. Please refer to my prior posts,
I have not once mentioned that.

As far as I personally have seen the "real world" work, being
polite or nice is something that will get you a lot farther.
People who are rude and impolite tend to make enemies.

So much as I beliving that others share my morals. . . I have
spoken to many that do, and many that don't. I didn't say that
EVERYONE belives what I do. I was suggesting that it might
be a better approach to things, not that it was the only way. I
would be HAPPY to hear other creative solutions. I know all too
well that not everyone shares my morals, and while in some cases
it has hurt me, I think diversity is for the better. I like
seeing other's points of view, it helps me to learn about people
and how they interact, what life is like for others, and
countless other things. It is a very valuable thing.


Your first response is to comment on my behaviour -
your first comment isn't "I believe this" it's "You do this".
Again, I've been over-reacting or "on a hair trigger" or in this
case "condoning arguments", because I strongly disagree with
some things that have been said.

First things first - what I said was

Willow Raven - Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but you
seem to be trying to find any reason you can to actually CONDONE
arguments. . . please do correct me if I'm wrong on
this.

1. I acknowlaged that I could be wrong.
2. I said "SEEM", not "YOU ARE." Seem is an observation, ARE is
"this is the actual truth." I was merely commenting on my
observation and asking you if that was correct.
3. The "hair trigger" comment is as follows from another forum
where you were arguing with someone:


Willow Raven - I would respectfully ask you to calm
down. . . you seem to be on a hair-trigger lately, is something
upsetting you? I'm a little concerned, is everything ok?


I said this because I was concerned about your recent actions; I
was wondering if there was something more that was causing you to be what I percieved as jumpy or grumpy. This was merely my observation, and I was asking you. It was in no way meant as an insult, or anything the like. I was expressing concern and you
chose to take it as an attack. I'm sorry if I made you feel that way.
4. I said condoning arguments because you have been seeming to fight AGAINST a more peaceful resolution of dissagreements. If I am wrong, tell me. I will not mind, honestly. I'd like to hear you say it right out if that's what you belive. Was that accurate of me to say or not?


Whether I condone arguments or not doesn't matter, and that's my point. Arguments happen.

Yes, they do.


Even if I am, does it seem appropriate to question my behaviour in public when it has nothing to do with the topic at hand?

Actually, it has everything to do with the topic at hand. The topic is that I (and a few others that I've talked to) are sick of fighting, and we'd like to find ways to stop it. Someone CONDONING fighting is not terribly constructive to this. And you have very often questioned OTHER'S behevior in public. . . why was it ok then but it isn't now? is it because it's your behevior that's being questioned? Or am I wrong about that?


Don't you think normally dissecting someone's behaviour or wording when it isn't on topic is going to be annoying?

See above.


If I said you seem like a fluffbunny
lately (and I'm not), would that be appreciated?

Actually, yes, it would. I need a good laugh every once in a while. I have been thinking about starting a book of the 100 silliest things people have called me.


I guess I have two points here.

1. You can't expect others to follow your principles and morals,
no matter how petty you think they are for not doing so
2. You can't force people not to get angry or upset by telling
them they shouldn't be

1. I don't expect them to follow my morals and principles. I was merely offering an idea of what would make this place a happier community. Heck, I don't want everyone following my morals!! What an annoying world that would be!
2. I'm not telling anyone not to get angry. I'm asking them to try to be a little more polite and thoughtful about it.


Willow, please try to read my posts more carefully. I am not attacking you, I am not attacking others. I am posting in such a way that I'm painstakingly trying to avoid offending people. I am emphasizing that it is my opinion, my own personal ideas, not a "do what I say or else!" kind of a thing. Try to understand this.

Everyone, I hope that this ceases being a debate of "who's right who's wrong she said this she said that mommie i'm telling!" and becomes a "how can we help everyone to feel better" thread. Because that's what I intended it to be in the first place.

Any and all ideas are welcome, as always.

Jewlz- here here.


in peace,
Puma Hime

[Persephone]

WOW. I'd seen other posts about the attitude changing, but this is the first time I've noticed anything more than simple disagreeing & voicing opinions (maybe I just visit the blander areas? :-)

It's a good thing. When anything grows, be it a person, a business, or an online community, there comes a time when there are what you might call fights. It leads to growth - different perspectives are brought into view and everyone has a chance to examine what's going on and how they feel. Then a consensus is reached, it's put in the past, and you move on.

Right?

[Persephone]

P.S. This is a wonderful place.

[Astraea]

I think Puma's final post is great and well said.
This is my take on the arguements here lately- at least the disasterous arguement I was involved in:
It's difficult to have an intelligent arguement when people don't read what is said. I realize that when speaking via the internet, it's difficult to interpret tone- if I say "you freak!" jokingly to someone who can't hear my tone, I could offend someone. But the fact here is, you can see each word right before your eyes and can't very well argue over who said what. If we take time to read the exact print, we can grasp what someone is trying to convey. Not the tone they set, but the content of their ideas.

The problems that seem to have erupted lately are "you assumed" this, and "you said" this, and "you must've thought" that. No, don't tell me I assume things or that I "must've thought" something! Read the exact words I type and comment on them. When I say something, don't try to tell me I said another thing entirely different. I did my best in that Past Lives thread to comment on the exact words that were typed- a comment on an idea being silly- I just now read it over twice to be certain of what was said. In return I was accused of saying things I did not say, accused of assuming things I would never assume. There is no reason for that! That situation can be avoided completely if we are respectful enough to comment on what someone actually types, not on what we "think" they mean.

I have noticed certain people here not being respectful of other's views, calling people's ideas "silly," and a small amount of bashing. But mostly, I've noticed people twisting other's words and accusing others of making comments they never actually made. Who wants to visit a forum full of people who make assumptions and say "you said...." something that was never typed? I realize we all misread- I do. But if we respect each other, we can have peaceful disagreements that involve the words that are actually spoken and not what is assumed.

Also, I noticed some people dish out a lot of attitude and criticism but can't take it in return.
I like it here and I'm happy to be able to visit again. I apologize for any problems I've caused or added to, and hope we can share peacefully and respectfully.

[Astraea]

Persiphone:
I think you are correct. Ultimately, many fights do indeed lead to growth- you described that so well. On the other hand, fights can lead to destruction (in many forms). Double edged sword I suppose!

[loopy]

Just for the record (and stepping into something that isn't even really my business) I didn't think the use of the word "silly" in that particular thread was meant as vengeful or derogatory.

That's another example of a kind of misunderstanding. Like people have said, it sucks to be told that you meant something behind a statement of yours that you didn't. So if someone said something was "silly" and another interpreted it as bashing, that's no reason to jump on the first person and immediately assume they were being disrespectful. Words mean different things to different people in different situations, and I think it sucks having to monitor and re-think every other word typed for the fear that someone out there will get offended. If you have a problem with the way someone worded something, I think it's best to PM them and say calmly and rationally what offended you--without bashing them in turn-- instead of getting Off Topic in a thread and leaving the field open for what can become bashing of the "offender's" character.

[Qabalarina]

It is also helpful for everyone to remember that we are all responsible for our own feelings. You cannot have deep discussions about controversial subject if everyone is trying their damnedest to be conciliatory and complacent. People with strong opinions often come off as bitchy, arrogant, self-righteous ,etc, and then other people get "offended" by the way such-and-such a person stated her beliefs.

You are responsible for your own reactions and feelings. If I say, "I think X idea is silly", that's quite different from saying, "You're persposterous." For example, there is no one on this planet that I respect more than my husband, Yet I can say to him, "No, I think you're view on this subject is silly." He has to choose to take offense at that. He doesn't. Likewise, we have to take responsibility for how we react to incindiary or inflammatory remarks. Otherwise, we're going to have to make a list of adjectives that are acceptable.

Poster1: "I find your theory of evolution unreasonable"

Pster 2: "Is that inflammatory? Can I take offense at that?"

Poster 3: "I dont think so. I think unreasonable is acceptable."

Poster 2: "But I don't *like* being told I"m unreasonable! "

Poster 3: "Oh, in that case, add "unreasonable" to the list of words we cannot use to describe how we view anothers ideas."

...and so forth until the only thing we *can* say is, "Gee, Fluffy Bunny Girl, I think your ideas are spiffy!"

Yes, I'm making a mockery of the situation, but I hope you catch my drift. We can't all run around taking responsibility for how we make other people feel. There *is* a difference between calling someone a ignorant bufoon and saying you find their "theory" absurd. One is a personal attack--the other isn't. Just becuase yo udon't like the way someone comments on something you've said *doesn't* mean they are attacking *you personally*. Please understand the difference between an ad hominem attack and a strongly stated contrary opinion.

Some ideas are, after all, absurd to someone, and why shouldn't they have the right to express that opinion?

[Sequoia]

exactly.. . . exactly. Well said.

[Astraea]

loopy-
The comment I made to Willow was that referring to another person's ideas as "silly" is arrogant. That was my opinion, and I stated that. I was trying to explain my point of view regarding that situation- my input lead to her saying I made comments that I never made. I never said above that "silly" is a bashing comment.
Yes, we interpret things differently, I grasp that.

[Laiste]

Oh my Goddess...my aching head.

Here is one more opinion...EVERYONE HAS AN OPINION AND EVERYONE IS RIGHT. OPINIONS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE WRONG. THEY BELONG TO THE INDIVIDUAL PERSON WITH A MIND OF THIER OWN. NO MATTER WHAT THE SUBJECT YOU CAN ARGUE TILL THE COWS COME HOME OVER OPINIONS AND NOBODY WILL WIN 'CAUSE EVERYONE IS RIGHT. BUT, THEN AGAIN THATS JUST MY OPINION AND I COULD BE WRONG OR MAYBE IM RIGHT:eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

[Astraea]

No one here is even reading what I've said, for crying out loud- I said in the other thread that I don't care what anyone sees as "silly." I was never offended or felt she was bashing! I only was offering MY OPINION on her comment! I was offering a point of view- and I stated that. There's no issue of anyone actually being offended by her use of the word silly.
My point here is the twisting of words, why is that so hard to see?
I'm not offended by her thinking an idea is silly- the idea she called silly was not even my idea.

[loopy]

Ok. Let's not start more arguments in the sposed-to-be "love-in" thread. I wasn't accusing you of anything, Astraea, I was just pointing out that people shouldn't jump and be offended-- not just you, anyone.

I also think the key here is that she was offering her opinion on an idea, and you were offering your opinion on a specific person--her. Also, I stick by my whole "don't comment in the thread if it's Off topic" thing. You responding to her statement opened the door for another member to accuse her of being unintelligent, and that's when it leads to bashing.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, btw. I'm just stating things as I see them.

[Laiste]

Astraea,

I understand what you are saying. There is so much confusion and missunderstandings right now. I hope you don't think my comment was directed at you. Actually, my comment was not directed at anyone in particular, just on the subject posted.

[Astraea]

Loopy, I have nothing to do with that individual who chose to bash her and say such undesirable things. It doesn't really matter what you stick by, our off-topic remarks aren't to blame for the bashing. I was cursed at by two people who said they are Willow's "friends," does this mean she opened doors to me being cursed at? No, it doesn't.

If it is making you feel better to blame me for the bashing that occured, have a go at it.

I wish all of you well!

Oh, Laiste, no I didn't think you directed your comments toward me. I understand what you said and I agree with you.

[loopy]

Astraea-- I don't see how the Off Topic remarks weren't responsible, but fine. Member bashing started when you stated your opinions of a member instead of an idea. I don't know anything about you being cursed at-- I only have what I see on the boards to go by.

"Blaming you" isn't making me feel better; it's giving me a headache. I don't want to blame anyone for anything; I'm just trying to call it like I see it, objectively. Sorry if that's insulting you. (That WAS NOT sarcastic.)

[Astraea]

You can't even get what I said straight. I didn't offer my opinion of Willow Raven. Here's my opinion of her: she's an intelligent, strong-willed person from what I've seen here.

My comment was on her idea. Her comment was on an idea I brought up.

There was no "member bashing" between Willow Raven and me. If this is how you "call it like you see it," I would really hate to see an instance when you think you are wrong.
If you have a headache, maybe it would help to stop talking about a thread you had no hand in.

[Astraea]

P.S.
If you honestly didn't want to place blame, why bring it up? No one else had.

[loopy]

You brought it up-- all the talk about "silly" without naming names.

From what I saw, you called her arrogant. Sorry if I got it wrong, or whatever.
And excuse me for talking about it, in the public forum where everyone can read it. As it was just one example of a type of member problem, and the arguments around the forums are the very topic of this thread, I replied about it. If something else had gone on, maybe that would have been an exmple too.

Freaking sue me.

[Astraea]

Good grief, Loopy. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

I never brought up blame, why would you say I did?
All the talk about silly without naming names?? What does that mean? Do you even understand the conversation we had?

I didn't "call her arrogant." Read what I said again if you have to refresh your memory. I said my opinion was that her idea was arrogant.
She said her opinion was the idea I mentioned was silly. Is it really that hard to understand, Loopy?

You said you had a headache. My suggestion was to stop making our discussion (which is now over) your problem. It's like you're beating a dead horse, but don't even understand why you're beating it.

[Jewlz]

OK guys, Your argueing on a thread where someones asked for people to stop argueing. Be considerate please.

[loopy]

Good grief, Loopy. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to have such a handle on what I do and don't understand.

And just so you know, I know exactly what I meant. I just don't know how to say it so you get what I mean, and why I responded at all, okay?! So I'm sorry. It was none of my business, whatever, I'm done with it.

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Qabalarina
It is also helpful for everyone to remember that we are all responsible for our own feelings.

As someone much wiser than I once said: Someone can't hurt you without your permission. ...


You are responsible for your own reactions and feelings.

I agree. Sadly enough, though, self-responsibility and self-honesty are in sad short supply in today's world. :(


We can't all run around taking responsibility for how we make other people feel.

Spot on! :D

[Astraea]

I realize you understand what you mean. I never had a doubt. Nothing wrong with sticking your nose in, I just didn't like being accused of saying those things.

[Mairwen]

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

This reminds me of something that was hanging on a dressing room wall in the old JC Penney building of my hometown:

I know that
you believe you
understand what
you think I said,
BUT
I am not sure
you realize that
what you heard
is not
what I meant.

[Astraea]

Wow, that fits this situation perfectly, Mairwen.
Everything is cool now. Astraea and Loopy are moving on, getting along.....

[Myst]

My points have been proven in the few hours I was away from MW.

Whether we want arguments to happen or not, they do.

There are *MANY* people here who don't feel arguing is a bad thing or that we need to fix it at all.

Obviously people don't have such a big problem with arguing or they wouldn't argue.

We all have different opinions, principles, and morals. Should we try to respect eachother? Yeah. Should we stop discussing/debating/arguing? I don't think so. Personally I think it's the differing opinions here that make things interesting. I also think if people would a) take a moment to think of the tact of what they've said and the appropriateness ("Did I word that in the best way? Should I put it in that thread? Will this person be upset, and if so, did I want to upset them?") and b) stop expecting that everyone is going to be completely happy when people deviate from that, then we'd be a lot better off.

<OT>
And did I say anywhere "I'm sick of people who make personal comments about me" but found me saying to someone "you know, I think you need to calm down. I think you're condoning arguments. I think there must be something wrong in your life that is affecting you"?

If you don't like my behaviour, or my attitude, or what have you, don't read my posts. You can put me on ignore. Thankfully, having a "bad attitude" is not against the rules here.

And I'll try to explain this again. The reason why it's not ok to discuss my behaviour in this thread or any other that isn't titled "Willow Raven's Behaviour" is because it's OT. If you want to talk about my behaviour PM me about it. If you want to bring it up and publicly dissect it in a thread that's not even related, don't expect me or anyone else to be happy about it. IMHO it's against the rules (#4, staying on topic), and it's rude. Especially if you were trying to convince them that "you're just worried about them", you would not attack your "family" members in front of all their friends and your friends now would you?
</OT>

[Kaylara]

Let me speak my mind on this issue...

I think that strong opinions are good, and I am very passionate about what I do. But in the same respect, people need to take other people into consideration when they are deciding how they are going to speak their mind about a particular subject. It's a little thing that my parents like to call "tact." (something they often accuse me of having none of.) It's just like manners. Why do we have manners, why are manners important? Because it shows respect for the people around you.

I don't ask that people change their views, or stop being passionate, or stop discussing things. But lets try to see the difference between discussing and arguing. Discussing is where you actually absorb enough of what the other people are saying to make an informed opinion about it. You can actually have an intellegent conversation on most subjects because you are actually listening and responding to what the other people are saying. When you argue, everyone gets so heated up about a particular part of the conversation that no one listens to what the other person is saying. And then people get frustrated, and start acting like spoiled children having a temper tantrum. It's only when we take a step back and a deep breath that we can get back to the heart of the issue that started said arguement. Just like Mommy sending the kids to seperate areas of the house to cool down.

But I digress...

I am not asking you all to be super sweet to each other... I don't care if you even like each other. But I am saying that you should at least be somewhat cordial to each other. If you don't like someone so much, that everything that you read by them makes you angry, put them on ignore. Or don't read their posts. Very simple.

And personally, there are plenty of people on this board who I am glad to say are part of my family. I have gotten to know these people over the past 9 months just as I would someone IRL... There are many people here who have spent a lot of time and effort and put a ton of energy into this community. And these are the people who I work with here on a daily basis, and in fact have more contact with many of the people on this board than I do my blood family. I feel it is my responsibility to make sure that I don't let myself get out of hand here. It's a part of being in any community. You can't just run over people who get in your way or who disagree with you... That is how people get hurt.

Kaylara

[Sequoia]

Kaylara, you have read my mind.

loopy and astraea - *BIG FUZZY PEACE HUG*

Willow, may I include you in the big fuzzy peace hug?

[Myst]

by the way, there was a thread on pretty much the same topic posted in the Political Pagan early yesterday morning (Friday, just after midnight EST)... if you're interested in seeing opinions and sharing there visit it at http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7585

[Tigerwallah]

how something is going to sound to someone else. Frankly, I've said a lot of things that I, personally, wouldn't take offense to, but low and behold someone does. You can't please everyone. So, I work to please myself. If we all understood this, people would take more responsibilities for their own feelings. I'm not responsible for anyone but myself.

We discuss politics and religion here. Historically, those are subjects that have strong opposing views. All I can say is that this is the real world. You can't expect this place to be a Eutopia of peaceful harmony. As I said in the Freedom of speech thread, what can we learn if everyone agrees or presents no conflicting views.

I try to avoid, at all costs, personal attacks. However, people can find anything to take offense to. I take serious offense to almost nothing. I can't remember a day when I thought that there was too much arguing here, or was too offended by anything anyone said.

Once again, if you have a problem with a post, or a community member, you have the freedom to ignore them.

[lieve heks]

we need heated disscusion to learn from our own mistakes(prejudices?) sometimes you can't give your own personall opinion without treading on other peoples toes and if someone angers you, you have a right to react, name calling in my opinion is very petty and remember there are so many of us on the web site and if we all agreed would'nt it be boring.


"to eer is human"

[Sequoia]

yes.

What I"ve been trying to say is: I know arguing/debating is natural, and it's a good thing! it brings about different viewpoints. However, what I do NOT think belongs is the act of hurting someone else intentionally. Accidents happen, but what I"ve been trying to say is that there's ways to try to sound better.

Yes, being yourself is a good thing. But say I was someone who walked around yelling "F**K YOU!" at every person I saw. . . if that was myself, would you be ok with me doing that?

Sure, that's an extreme example. But sometimes there are aspects of ourself we just don't share with everyone. I speak from personal experience; sometimes you just can't completely be yourself. Society won't accept that. And it's a heck of a lot easier to get hurt YOURSELF if you're constantly walking around 100% sharing everything. . . .not only may you offend others, but you also leave yourself completely vunerable.

Some people put on "polite masks" when the go to school, or work. . . if nothing else, if you're unable to express yourself in a way you dont' think will annoy most people (there's always going to be one or two who get annoyed by anything), then perhaps taht's teh only alternative?

I just ask that people act how they'd like to be treated, is all.

Debates are wonderful. Different views are wonderful. Pain is not. Attacks are not. Rudeness, viciousness, things like that are not. Can anyone here tell me that they truely enjoy being in pain? that they like the feeling that someone out there made a comment just to hurt them?

Well. . . I"m just rehashing things I"ve already said. I'll leave the board to more opinions.

I'm glad, though, that so many people are expressing their thoughts and opinions. I am happy that people want to stay here and enjoy talking to everyone else! :)

[Myst]

I haven't yet tried to intentionally hurt someone by sharing my feelings.

And yet, I can think of several occasions wherein something I thought I was saying clearly and politely was interpreted as rude or just made the person annoyed/upset/angry/etc. I've tried to be polite and ended up having people threaten to "tell mol"! You can try to be as nice and polite as you want and get absolutely NOWHERE.

"However, people can find anything to take offense to" and "I can't remember a day when I thought that there was too much arguing here, or was too offended by anything anyone said". Tigerwallah, I agree wholeheartedly.

and thank Goddess there's an ignore function :rolleyes:

[SimplyStrange]

*HUGS EVERYONE*

I dunno, it's kind of weird to see arguments breaking out in the "let's not argue" thread...

The lemonade is getting a little sour. I understand arguing is human nature, and last time I checked, we are all humans, but it does get out of hand sometimes.

*Sigh* I don't know where to stand with this issue. I mean, arguing is something we all do, and sometimes it's harmless. I think it's when it's taken personally by people and gets out of hand and even the moderators are ignored that it is a real issue.

Ah! Confusion!!

Oh well, since I can never really express what I really want to say...

*MORE HUGS TO EVERYONE*

[Myst]

SS : yeah I was thinking that too, kinda funny how it did happen even here huh.

And I agree with the rest of what you said, well put :)

[Tigerwallah]

Again, we aren't agreeing with eachother. No one is name calling though. We are keeping to the topic at hand. So, what's the problem?

I think that the issue, for me anyway, is that I am who I am, and I don't plan on modifying myself so that no one will take offense. I'm here to learn and discuss and to share information. As long as this is going on, I can't see the harm in being myself. I believe that we all have that right. Sure, there are some people who I just never agree with. At some point I can decide if I will continue to reply or will I ignore. I don't want to change how I post, and I don't want anyone else to change either. It is your right to be who you are. Some people will love you for it, and some people will not. It's ok if not everyone likes us. I don't strive to be popular. I strive to be true to myself.

I think that that is what this boils down to. If someone breaks the rules, the moderators are here to step in. Everything else is fair.

[Lavender]

Originally posted by Tigerwallah
Again, we aren't agreeing with eachother. No one is name calling though. We are keeping to the topic at hand. So, what's the problem

Did yo notice that not *everyone* is posting here? :D

[Myst]

Ok wild go ahead and call me a name :razz:

[Astraea]

I agree with a lot of what is posted here. I don't think arguements are a bad thing- generally speaking.
Sometimes we think, oh, I was trying to be considerate of others in that situation, but others got offended. When we offend someone in an arguement, it's possible our consideration just was not communicated well enough for others to receive it. Depending on the type of people we are, we may or may not care.
When we reply to what people say and not make assumptions about their thoughts, arguements can lead to growth and understanding. If not, we just end up ticking each other off. It's just the way it is.
Each person handles an arguement differently- yes I have my opinions on what I find disrespectful in an arguement, and everyone else here must too. People's opinions differ, as with everything else. With that in mind, questions in an arguement seem to go over much more smoothly than implications that begin with "if." "'If'" you think this, you are wrong,"- nah, just ask me what I think.

Anyhow, good luck here everyone.

[Lavender]

Originally posted by Willow Raven
Ok wild go ahead and call me a name :razz:

:o Ok, you're a.......a........a.........oh, phooey! I can't do it. It goes against my nature. :rolleyes:

Lots of good points were brought up here & in the thread in political. Some I agree with, some made me think, & some I disagree with. You're right...where are the ones with all the anger & the name calling? Perhaps they realized that resorting to such childish behaviour just shows a level of immaturity that has nothing to do with age. Can't help but wonder if they're hanging their heads in shame right now?

Oh, Willow, I forced myself & ....you're a poopyhead! :razz:

[Danustouch]

Willow...can I take a crack? You're a Razzlemebuff, dibbledydorf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oops..don't want this one to go to Just Silly, Too!

[Sequoia]

ano. . . . namecalling?:rolleyes: it figures. Guys, even if it's in jest, do you really think it fits this thread? I mean, here I'm trying to get folks to cut down on things that could be insulting to some, and all. . .

[Myst]

(insert hysterical laughter here)

So the conversation lulled, but actually I think D's comment helps me show a point. If I had taken that as an insult - would it be her fault for saying it or my fault for interpreting it as an insult instead of a joke? Would it be appropriate for me to say "how dare you speak to me like that" in this thread that has nothing to do with me or how she words like that, or would it be better for me to PM her and talk to her about it? Couldn't I just put her on ignore, or should I complain to mol and try to get her banned? The answers to these questions are up to you, but I know what mine are.

[Danustouch]

Sorry Puma...I know it is a Serious Thread. The words just popped into my brain, and I spurted them out on the screen..heheheh. There was absolutely NOTHING behind them. Willow..glad you know that it was a joke!!!! But i'm sorry for digressing for a moment. Just me trying to inject some friendliness and laughter in a thread that desperately needs it, from MY Perspective. Not saying that anything any of you have said was wrong, or that arguing isn't a good thing. But..a break in the arguing is a good thing too. A minute to take a breath, and laugh. Keeps yer blood pressure in check :)

Go on though, now. Sorry to interrupt the arguing..or debating....ummmmmmmm..could anyone use some throaght drops? or..in this case..finger bandages???

:);)

[Sequoia]

actually danustouch, hearing it from that perspective. . .


Thanks. ^_^ you're right, it was needed. Laughs are important.

:D ah, hehe I can be a baka right along with the best of them. 8O

[Danustouch]

No Problem :)

[Wyrdsister]

Wow, this is quite the thread, folks! :D And well done, btw. Everyone expressed their thoughts in a well-versed, educated and respectful way. Not too shabby for a thread about arguements! :thumbsup:

I'm not even going to try and respond to everything in this thread, so I'm just going to respond to Puma Hime's orignal post:

Puma, I know the bickering and flaming sucks. I prefer it not to happen at all, and it hurts more when it happens to an online group/community/whatever that you've come to really enjoy.

Unfortunately I think this is a phase that at least 95% of online groups go through, whether it be an email list, a chat room, a BBS, a web board; anything. The group starts small (an easily wielded size), great discussions begin, a big bunch of others start joining, and the arguements and flames are soon to follow.

After this, the trend seems to be that the group becomes unsettled, calls for peace are made, followed by more flames. People actually leave the group, including a lot of sh-t disturbers, and the "community" rebuilds. This can happen several times over the course of a group's lifetime. I think it SUX, but I think it's a typical trend.

...

You know, this post has turned out longer than I'd intended. So much for brevity! :T You can take it as you will; it's just my own commentary.

Now Wyrdsister, after an absolutely wonderful weekend riding rollercoasters and other wild rides, is off to :zzz: :zzz:. G'night!

Wyrdsister

[Tigerwallah]

really, I have never taken anything said here so seriously and so to heart that I've walked away from my computer upset. I've engaged in some pretty tough battles, but I stick to arguing the content and refrain from personal attacks. Of course, I've been accused of personal attacks when none were intended. This doesn't really bother me. Of course, I'm used to it. My mother thinks that everything is a personal attack, and I've learned to ignore this.

I just want to say that for all of us to get along here, you can't take it personally. Things that we type sound differently to the person reading it than it does in our heads as we type it. That's just natural. We can't see eachother's facial expressions, or hear tonality in eachother's voices. All we can do is remember that we know ourselves best, and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. If you are offended by something someone says, try not to resort to personal attacks, and call them on it. Be open and honest and ready to discuss and share, and by all means, do not be affraid of confrontation. Don't cause conflict, however, by resorting to petty insults. When someone insults you, remember that as much as we like to consider ourselves a family, they probably don't know you and are, most likely, reacting to something they misunderstood, or are sensitive to the issue at hand.

Em Hotep everyone.

[Raynewitch]

Hmmmmmm ok I think I hang around the fluffybunny sections of this place (thanks to whomever used that word...it is now residing in my vocab. :) ) because I have seen about one fight....I hope I havent hurt anyones feelings with my sarcasm and sick sense of humour...sorry to those who have been offended - if anyone has.

Thankfully I have never been attacked...nor do I get abusive PM'S (I dont get ANY pm's it seems - but I digress) so I will just sit back and read what everyone else has to say....

R

[Rævyn Cigány]

Originally posted by Wildchild


Did yo notice that not *everyone* is posting here? :D

Yes, and reading these posts, I'm definitely glad I have NOT....

BB

[Mairwen]

Originally posted by Wyrdsister
Wow, this is quite the thread, folks! :D And well done, btw. Everyone expressed their thoughts in a well-versed, educated and respectful way. Not too shabby for a thread about arguements! :thumbsup:

Nice new sigline, too, btw!! :D Of course, it wouldn't let me quite it. Never does! Bugger!:rolleyes:

[mol]

I am not even going to attempt to read through all of this thread. Instead, I will leave you with TWO words that sums up what is happening here in the Community.

Growing Pains.

[Illuminatus]

I can't leave you people for a week without everyone going for each other's throats! How could you have all these great fights without me?????

But do not let me stop you. By all means, continue to scramble and claw at one another, chasing around the golden apple I have cast upon your floor! Ha ha! Remember that Discord is INHERENT to SOME of our paths. (ahem cough ahem).. Love Everybody/Let's Get Along is great for Barney and Friends, but not all pagans follow the Rede, and it's a bit arrogant for you to impose it on us Puma. (I consider arrogance to be a virtue, so please accept my compliment peacably) .. And an online community really can't be described as a family. That's an oversimplification, and a broad one at that since everyone's family is different. I'd describe an online community as a loose consortium of cliques and friends, at some sort of loud party or mixer.

Seriously though, those of you who are getting upset at all the fights... well nobody held a gun to your head and MADE you hit that quote button. I walk away from a full 80% of posts that offend me, and I've never (seriously) complained about anyone. It's that whole Jesus thing about turning the other cheek.

Also Willow Raven your new avatar kicks ass! heh what's really neat is that I actually look quite a lot like my avatar, except most of my blonde has grown out and I need to reapply it.

- Illuminatus!

[Danustouch]

Well..it is reasonable that people would enter this forum thinking it would be like a family. Since in Most of the Welcomes to MysticWicks, people say..."Welcome Home". It give it that kind of "family feel". and it may be an unreasonable expectation that people would ALWAYS behave as lovingly as family....but...then again...most families have their dyfunctional parts. And Most families go through ups and downs, and as Mol said, Growing Pains. We've REALLY gotten big in the last few months. There are SOOOOOOOO many new faces in here. We can't expect that there won't be periods of adjustment, or some strife here and there. This is a microcosm....it reflects a LITTLE bit of what we all deal with in our REAL lives, only on a much smaller scale. So of course there will be hurt feelings from time to time. But, Illuminatus...when you first came to Mysticwicks, hopefully, you were able to see how deeply SOME people felt about the community. And how seriosly some people consider this their extended family. If it's arrogant for us to impose that on you...then it is likewise arrogant for you to impose your..."hey, if you don't like it, bug off" attitude on us. Some of us reallllllllly have become attatched to this forum, for whatever reason. And for us, our feelings are valid, concerning it. If that makes any sense whatsoever. In other words. We may not be able to tell you to soften your talk, try hard not to step on toes, and to never offend anyone. That would not be fair. But..it is likewise unfair for you to tell us, that we shouldn't get our feelings hurt, or be offended, or try to be peacemakers, or what have you. Our feelings, and desires, and hopes for this community are JUST as valid as yours. You might come here looking for intellectual debate, and mental growth or enlightenment. But some people come here for a sense of "COMMUNITY" . Thus, the name. Mystic Wicks COMMUNITY. A sense of belonging, new friends, support, etc. And that is EVERY bit as valid as "intellectual growth.". I personally think it would be VERY arrogant, to assume that Intellectual Stimulation should be EVERY one's goal here. Some people just want a place where they can feel important, loved, accepted, and cared for.

[Sequoia]

.. Love Everybody/Let's Get Along is great for Barney and Friends, but not all pagans follow the Rede, and it's a bit arrogant for you to impose it on us Puma. (I consider arrogance to be a virtue, so please accept my compliment peacably) ..

:eyebrow: umm. . . thanks. . . . I uh. . . think.

Danustouch - You read my mind. =)

[emraldshadowcat]

Can't we all just get along??

[mol]

Man. Talk abouta dead horse being beaten.

I will just say this. It is ok to argue, debate, discuss, and disagree with each other. Its not ok to start flaming and telling each other off. Hurling insults, etc. Its immature. If you can think of something constructive to add to a conversation...its real easy to pop off with "Youre an idiot."

Ah, to point a finger and not think about the others pointing back at you.

So, I dont see where the issue is...

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by mol
Man. Talk abouta dead horse being beaten.

I will just say this. It is ok to argue, debate, discuss, and disagree with each other. Its not ok to start flaming and telling each other off. Hurling insults, etc. Its immature. If you can think of something constructive to add to a conversation...its real easy to pop off with "Youre an idiot."

Ah, to point a finger and not think about the others pointing back at you.

So, I dont see where the issue is...

That is why I point ALL my fingers! Like I'm going to cast the Burning Hands spell.

I still think we need a Personal Attack Forum. That way, all the negative energy would be sucked into that one forum, leaving the rest of MW purified and refreshed! Hell, I'll even moderate it for ya if you want, I'll make sure nobody posts anything civil or friendly!!!!

- Ill

[Woven Spirit]

Sounds to me like everyone talking and venting here needs to get a charcoal and place some lavender and dragons blood on it along with a white candle and some White sage! Focus on your positive energy friends. I am new here but I think my opinion counts too! Where is the love? We all need to vent once in a while, but why are all of you taking it out on each other? Debates can be fun but they are so draining! This is a rather large family and I am proud to be here. All families have disagreements, but if you do not find a way to agree in the end, all of your hearts will hurt. Many minds and souls can come together in a negative or positive way. You create the environment you want around you. I believe we can all connect in some spiritual way, but this is not right! With love anything is possible. With hate and remorse you will only hurt yourselves more. Blessed be to all of you.:rolleyes:

[Sequoia]

I like how you think, Woven Spirit. Well said.

[Myst]

I don't think Illuminatus was imposing anything as much as sharing his opinion. I also don't think he was saying you can't get emotional about stuff online as much as if you do get emotional that's your prerogative and no one can be accused of forcing you to respond. I agree totally with everything he's said, myself, but that's just my opinion, and I'm just sharing it, not expecting anyone to follow it :)

Mol : me either

Illy : Thanks. I had to make the tux T (can you believe they didn't have one already!?) :)

[Danustouch]

Hmph...well..i don't remember calling anyone an idiot, while in this thread, or in the forum, come to think of it...so I hope that wasn't the implication. And I also don't remember personally bashing anyone in this thread, either. Just stating my opinions. Thats all I recall.

[Myst]

I think that was a general opinion rather then an accusation Danus ;) ;) ;)

[Sequoia]

not to be confused with moderator mode - this is my own invention.

Ok guys.

Here's the thing - the United States has been hit with HUGE terrorist attacks. I've heard reports that other countries such as Canada and England have had bomb/terrorist scares. I imagine it's similar worldwide.

Right now is decidedly NOT the time to be arguing about arguments. Dissagreement is the LAST thing we need right now. What we need is UNITY. So let's try to come together as a whole, dissagreements or not. All of us are in danger, either emotionally or physically or both. And we need to be allies, if not friends. We need peace, now more then ever.

So let's all make the extra effort to get along, ok? I know some of you feel it's opression, but guys come on, this is not the time. Bite the bullet for a little while. We all need to at least act like not-enemies, ok?

Thanks a lot.

~Puma

[Wyrdsister]

Point well made. Now, is there any way to have this thread unstuck so we can focus on the main issues?

Wyrdsister
still reeling