How did I know it was a woman in Texas?

[Ahautenites]

This woman deliberately severed the arms off her baby.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/23/severed.arms.ap/index.html

I swear, it's something in the water down there, or maybe the heat addles these women's brains.

Mentally ill or not, I hope this woman is sterilized if not put to death.

[Kyra Kismet]

Bloody hell.....

[teishabee]

Now I heard of mothers drowning their kids but severing there arms off.
That is so distressing to read.

[Vetteman]

Department of human services said she was not a threat to her children. I am sorry, sick or not, these people do not deserve to be alive, can you imagine what it must have been like for the child.

[Sowelu]

:scream: that is heartbreaking!
pisses me off

[zakzekezedd]

Good grief.......some people just don't have any business having children. There's a family (and I use the term very loosely) locally who have had several children removed for sexual abuse and severe neglect (usually only after one of the children has, well, molested a classmate at school). Four years down the road, this woman has had 3 more kids and the same pattern of abuse and neglect is repeating itself. Not quite as tragic as this story, but still, I really think that major reforms need to be institued in child welfare policies to ensure that the children are really being protected. What has happened is terrible beyond all belief, but what is even more terrible is that there is nothing to stop this woman from having another child. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...........

[Bix]

I kinda feel sorry for the women...obviously something was wrong with her and nobody knew that so nobody got her help. I think it's a pity that American society as a whole does not teach people how to be good parents...it's like society thinks everybody has everything figured out.

[LadyAutumnCat]

This is apprehensible! I feel for the child, and the family in general. I also feel for the mother, because she should have gotten some kind of help.

There definitely need to be reforms to our system, but I wonder what we can do? Make doctors monitor the mothers? Give mandatory psychological counseling for a few months after the child is born? I'm not sure, but something has to be done.

[IndigoMoon]

It's really really sad. She's obviously crazy. What can you say when someone is obviously not of sound mind you know. It's a horrible tragedy.

[Darakash]

What really bothers me about these mothers killing their children cases, is that it seems that MOST of the time, they DONT get the death penalty and to me, if any type of murder deserves the death penalty, it is killing your own kid! I mean, sometimes these people are charged only with child abuse of some sort! If I kill a stranger, is there EVER a chance that I would be charged with nothing more than aggravated assault? I think not! I think it has to do with the idea that we are so outraged at such an act that we feel the person must be mentally ill, and they probably are; however, mentally ill and legally insane (as in not responsible for the crime) are VERY different things!

I find this incredibly sad and certainly wish this woman had gotten some help, but eeesh! I would like to here her "reason" for this action, I cannot even imagine what it might be!

DK

[Gracecat]

I saw the story earlier this morning. Lots of thoughts about it, a lot of tears shed. At first it made me angry but... All I can be is sad now. So terribly sad.

[jinx1_2]

Just reading about this makes me ill. :sick:

[Nighthawk]

Umm, wow! Makes you lose faith in humans. Sick sick sick. (She is not a threat to her children, yea...right!)

[Phoenix Blue]

:eyebrow: Interesting that people who've probably never suffered depression could make the judgment that someone else doesn't deserve to live.

The woman doesn't need a death sentence (though because she is in Texas she'll probably get one anyway). She needs professional counseling and medication. Though I would agree, she shouldn't be allowed to bring any more children into the world.

[Kyra Kismet]

she needs alot of help.....if she seemed to be a good mother what mad her turn, she husband must have known she was unstable...or was that the point......

[wakywitch]

:G :ack:

[misschief]

dude..........
yuck.

[Mab]

I think I'm going to be sick.

how???

how do you look at a child & think "I'll cut her little arms off"????????

God that makes me so heartsick.

I...........

[BeachWitch]

When is Society going to take Post-partum Depression seriously? How many families will be destroyed before the Medical Community realizes the catastophic consequences of severe Depression?

[HorseCrow]

............ :goodgrief

[Mab]

When is Society going to take Post-partum Depression seriously? How many families will be destroyed before the Medical Community realizes the catastophic consequences of severe Depression?that's a good question. I, myself, just yesterday, had a pre-therapy screening call to be assigned to a therapist. My reason: Severe depression & past suicidal tendencies beginning to resurface due to a relationship with many many issues/problems. What happened? The screener suggested I should wait until February 05 to attend a group class.

"So, you have a gun in your mouth right now? You're afraid you'll shoot yourself? OK. Please wait 3 months for assistance."

Ok, so it's a slight exaggeration, but only slight. I had to insist on an appt with a psychiatrist & insist that I need help NOW before I could get an appt made.



How do you let somebody out of a pyschological/psychiatric evaluation for severe depression & a psychotic episode without follow up?

[Calyx]

Not ALL Texans are freaks and shitty parents, you know. :mad:

[Celtic Solstice]

Considering that post-partum psychosis is caused by post pregnancy hormones, I agree that more children is a bad idea.

I think the whole thing is a tragedy. I do not think that the death penalty is the solution though. Consider that this woman when in her right mind probably truly adored her children. She is going to have to live with what she did. Let her. The death penalty is not going to help the dead child and it is not going to prevent deaths caused by postpartum psychosis. It is not going to help her surviving children who need to know that their mother does love them - she is simply mentally ill. These women are not acting under their right minds. After the fact, THEY likely WANT to die. Imagine waking from a nightmare to the realization that you had just killed your child. Would you want to live? It is a complete tragedy all around.

(I don't blame the child-services though - it sounds like they did intervene and did not suspect that she was not safe, so had not taken further action. Though I have to say that in the cases of postpartum psychosis, I really think that a mother's helper should be a REQUIRED part of the treatment until the child is out of diapers. Don't play guessing games as to when it is over until the child can talk.

I have a hard time not blaming the father. The article made it sound like he DID know there was a problem that particular day. He called to have someone check on her. How did he know? Why didn't he go check on them right away himself? Did he leave the house for work KNOWING she was having an episode??? He probably will not have any charges brought against him and the surviving children will still be entrusted to his care. He was supposedly sane and knew that his wife was not. Of course, we don't know any of the details).

It is all just sooooo sad.

[Celtic Solstice]

PS: there is a difference between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis.

[Sowelu]

Not ALL Texans are freaks and shitty parents, you know. :mad:
I don't believe there was anyone here stating that they are.

[indigo rain]

i'm in texas, i certainly hope its not something in the water!

[Valnorran]

There definitely need to be reforms to our system, but I wonder what we can do? Make doctors monitor the mothers? Give mandatory psychological counseling for a few months after the child is born? I'm not sure, but something has to be done.
But then that opens a huge can of worms: do you want government to decide who is and is not a fit parent?

[Calyx]

I don't believe there was anyone here stating that they are.
Then what exactly does the title of the Thread say to you?
Or this?

I swear, it's something in the water down there, or maybe the heat addles these women's brains.

I'm just trying to say that it's NOT because she is from Texas, it's because the poor lady was mentally ill.

[Tsuchimaru]

What sad, sad world we live in....

[Sequoia]

But then that opens a huge can of worms: do you want government to decide who is and is not a fit parent?

Err... we already do, all the time. If you saw a parent shooting up in an alley with their baby laying in rags all grungy, thin, and shaking- I'm pretty sure you'd say that the parent is not fit.

Kids are taken away from homes all the time because parents are physically or mentally abusive, are seriously neglecting their children, etc. I'm pretty sure you'd say most of those parents aren't fit, either.

So... yeah, that issue's over and done with. And I agree that all new parents, be them mothers or fathers, or even step-parents or grandparents who are helping to raise the child... anyone in the immediate family... should have at least SOME initial sessions on child-care, when to seek therapy, etc.

[Valnorran]

Err... we already do, all the time. If you saw a parent shooting up in an alley with their baby laying in rags all grungy, thin, and shaking- I'm pretty sure you'd say that the parent is not fit.

Kids are taken away from homes all the time because parents are physically or mentally abusive, are seriously neglecting their children, etc. I'm pretty sure you'd say most of those parents aren't fit, either.

So... yeah, that issue's over and done with. And I agree that all new parents, be them mothers or fathers, or even step-parents or grandparents who are helping to raise the child... anyone in the immediate family... should have at least SOME initial sessions on child-care, when to seek therapy, etc.
Right - AFTER they've already demonstrated unacceptable behavior. Evaluating people who have done nothing is something else. Sort of like guilty until proven innocent.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Then what exactly does the title of the Thread say to you?
Or this?

I swear, it's something in the water down there, or maybe the heat addles these women's brains.

I'm just trying to say that it's NOT because she is from Texas, it's because the poor lady was mentally ill.

:hugz: It's okay Calyx, I'm sure the OP just didn't think about how inflammatory their comments were. Though I took it the same way you did and I'm not from TX. People just have a stereotype in their head of what Texans are like and don't stop to think before posting those sorts of comments that they might really be insulting people.

As for the comments made about having government required child-care sessions, etc., you've got to be kidding me. I don't want or need the government telling me how to raise my children. Sure intervention should occur where it's obviously needed (and I don't mean situations where people call CPS because a parent dares discipline, not abuse, their own child), but to do so before hand is just preposterous. The government interfers enough in my life, I don't need them to do so even more just because I had the audacity to have children. :shaker:

Personally I feel nothing but pity and sorrow for the woman and her family. She did get help, and unfortunately it wasn't enough. Treating her like a common criminal is not the answer. What she did was the act of a very ill person, not a depraved person.

The husband is no more at fault here than she, after all he was having someone checking up on her. He likely took the psychiatrist at their word when they said she was not a danger to others. It's not his fault that the doctor was incorrect and he shouldn't be punished for their mistake.

[mattolsen]

I hope this does not turn into a giant death penalty post, that being said I would like to say I feel sorry for both the mother and the child. The mother can not be well if she were to do this to her own child.

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

I must admit I growled when I saw the title to this post. I feel that the fact that Texas' stance on the death penalty causes incidents like this to be more highly publicized. Either way, as a woman in Texas, I found the title of this thread to be offensive.

However, that aside, I found some information on PPP at the website http://www.melaniesbattle.com There were some very interesting facts, along with the story of Melanie Stokes. The links section is also quite excellent.

"Postpartum Psychosis affects between 1-3 of every one thousand new mothers. This mood disorder affects new mothers indiscriminately. In some cases, the woman that develops postpartum psychosis has no history of depression or other mood disorders. In other cases, a woman may have a latent condition that surfaces as she experiences the hormonal intensity of the postpartum months.

Postpartum Psychosis is a devastating mood disorder that can develop two to four weeks postpartum or immediately after a woman gives birth. Postpartum psychosis causes paranoia, hallucinations (hearing voices urging a new mother to kill herself or her child), severe insomnia, loss of appetite, anxiety and depression. A woman suffering from postpartum psychosis often suffers alone because of the shame associated with this illness."

Someone brought up the idea that having more children doesn't help PPP, and I found the following: "A woman who has already had an incident of postpartum psychosis increases her risk of a second incident of postpartum psychosis with a subsequent pregnancy by 50 percent."

(All info taken from http://www.melaniesbattle.com)

I am of the opinion that information should be readily available via a doctor/midwife/ect for any woman expecting a child, especially if they have a family history of Depression, Bipolar Mood Disorder, or Schizophrenia. By evaluating/disclosing those "risk factors" during the pregnancy, she and her physician can work towards an effective treatment plan should a depressive or psychotic incident occur.

Speaking as someone who suffers from clinical depression, I would want preventitive measures taken if I were to ever have children.

As Mòrag Elasaid MacDhòmhnaill said, my heart breaks for that entire family.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[Nantonos]

PS: there is a difference between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis.

Well spoken.

[Ziana]

I was listening to the news this morning on my way to work when I heard this story....I live in Texas by the way...they played the 911 tape of her phone call, and I have to say, she didn't sound all there....you can tell sometimes when a person is depressed by the sound of her voice, and when the 911 operator asked if they baby was breathing and she replied no, you could tell it wasn't really affecting her...like shell shock if you will. As in the case of the mother from Clear Lake, TX, I doubt they will give her the death penalty. More likely they will recommend a pyschiatric hospital where she can get help for her depression. Yes Texans are big on the death penalty when it comes to murder, but we don't go around executing those who are mentally ill. And also keep in mind that these are only two women from Texas....it's a big state, there are thousands more of us who are not mentally ill.

[Xentor]

Ouch, ouch and triple ouch.

[Ahautenites]

I must admit I growled when I saw the title to this post. I feel that the fact that Texas' stance on the death penalty causes incidents like this to be more highly publicized. Either way, as a woman in Texas, I found the title of this thread to be offensive.

First off, thank you for the negative karma, Rhiannon. Next, as I said in PM to you, I really don't care that you found it offensive. If I had posted that as the title and I *hadn't* read so many headlines about women from Texas who did something like this, I might apologize. But the fact is, I skimmed the whole article and said, "Let me guess... she's from Texas, right?" And sure enough, I was right. I was mad as hell, and the fact that I was right in my guess made me even angrier because I have no idea what on earth goes on down there that people there commit such abominable acts to children. I don't care about there being a death penalty or not. If you'd read my post carefully, you'd see that I either wanted her sterilized so she could never do that again to a child (if such a thing was legally possible) or else put out of her misery for doing something so reprehensible. I'm NOT backing down from that opinion. Deal with it.

Am I someone who sympathizes with mental illness? Bet your butt I do, because I suffer from clinical depression. But if you willfully kill someone, regardless of your state of mind, you do NOT deserve to live anymore. Do I expect the judicial system to agree with me and sentence her to death? No, and I really don't care. I also don't care if you disagree. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

[Sequoia]

Right - AFTER they've already demonstrated unacceptable behavior. Evaluating people who have done nothing is something else. Sort of like guilty until proven innocent.

Seems to me we do a LOT of testing without someone exhibiting signs... it's called preventitive measures.

For example, schools routinely test children's vision, the curvature of their spines, and even their psyciatric state (informally). A child will have their hearing and vision tested even if they show no signs of trouble, as will all children's spines be checked.

Women are ALWAYS checked to see if they're pregnant before they're given a birth control pill, even if the woman insists she's a virgin.

Even flat-chested women (and some men!) are screened for breast cancer.

And most jobs nowadays give an informal psychological screening before you're hired (that "what would you do/how would you react" mult. choice test).

For heaven's sakes, all I'm suggesting is a mandatory parenting class (maybe *gasp* two!) and screening for post-partum depression or any other anxiety disorders (or underlying mental conditions). Just a simple, easy, quick proccess. They already do many tens of blood tests on the mother and the infant. Psycho/physiological exams on the infant. What's wrong with an explanitory class (very very helpful for most new parents) and a quick, gentle screening (maybe a questionare even?) to see if the new parents are unduely stressed?

And imagine this: You've just given birth (the most painful experience of your life). The baby is keeping you up EVERY night. Hour on the hour. Your insides ache. You're bleeding. You look like crap, feel like crap, and have to clean up lots and lots of crap. Chances are, you would JUMP at the chance to have an hour a week to go to a psych, and just talk. Let out your stresses. Have a moment away from hubby, kids, baby, and just let it all out.

Can you imagine how wonderful that would be?

Not only that, but if mom was having real problems, she'd have a place that she could go to for help; somewhere she would be routinely going to, each week or so, and if she needed to ask for help about something or someone, nobody would be the wiser except her and her psych.

Personally, I think the idea of mandatory, low- or no-cost therapy for new mothers, for perhaps the first two months, would be a wonderful idea. Maybe even the first three-six.

And imagine how many children it could save, if say mom is having a really terrible time at home? If she's suffering from very bad depression? If she's in a lot of pain, or hubby is neglectful, or life is just overwhelming her beyond anything she can deal with?

Imagine the good it could do. And it wouldn't hurt you any.

That's my take on it. It's not an insult; it's a favor, and a help. New mothers don't get half as much help and respect as they deserve in this society. I know you would agree with that. So I don't see why you'd find it so insulting that we'd want to give new moms (and dads, if they needed it!) a break.

A simple class with tips on new baby care, a quick screening to see if (both) parents are doing okay and coping with the situation well, and a free outreach program for new mothers to help them cope with the stresses of a new baby. Maybe even for dads too, as it can be very stressful for them as well. I just focus on moms because they tend to have the hormones making it even worse for them.

Is that so evil? Such an infringement on your freedoms? Nobody's accusing them of being crazy, or taking the baby away. They're just suggesting a screening to see if mom or dad would need some extra help. And I think most of us would rather see mom and dad get extra help than to see baby die or be taken away later on down the line. Not to mention that having to move a child into a foster home would (and does) cost taxpayers a lot more money than quick, cheap, easy screenings would.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

NeferSesmet, but that fact that you automatically assumed the woman was from Texas was what was so offensive. There are far more healthy and sane parents down there then there are people who aren't.

I hear of just as many heinous crimes being commited in New York and California. The woman who drove her three kids into the lake wasn't from Texas, she was from North Carolina. How would you like it assumed that wherever you're from was stereotyped in such an awful way? It's one thing to say that people are hicks and rednecks, it's another thing to characterize them all as being mentally ill and bad parents.

[SilverClaw]

postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, well I am not going to get into but they are both types of depression and neither are fun to go through.

As for the woman who did this I hope she gets the help she needs.

[ToriaMaximus]

Am I someone who sympathizes with mental illness? Bet your butt I do, because I suffer from clinical depression. But if you willfully kill someone, regardless of your state of mind, you do NOT deserve to live anymore. Do I expect the judicial system to agree with me and sentence her to death? No, and I really don't care. I also don't care if you disagree. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I agree with this. This kind of stuff sickens me so much.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Sequoia, as a new mother I would have found just such a thing as you are suggesting to be irritating, invasive and far too demanding of my time. For as many new mothers as you think would enjoy that, there are just as many whou wouldn't want to do it and would resent such an intrusion into their lives. I've seen a therapist in the past and there wasn't a thing about it I liked. It didn't help me in any way and if I were forced to do it, such as your suggesting, they would have a damn hard time getting me to cooperate.

As for this prescreening you are suggesting, a large number of women who suffere from PPD or PPP have never experienced depression or psychosis of any type in their lives. Pre-screening wouldn't do a thing to pinpoint this. Then there are other women, who do have a history of depression, such as myself, who never had a problem with PPD or PPP. But I would be automatically red-flagged because of it if they used pre-screening measures and I'd have to put up with a lot of extra crap that I don't want to deal with. It is not the way to handle it. Education and awareness is the only way it can be combated.

[Ahautenites]

Again, see the "I don't care if it was offensive" statement. I don't even *remember* this drowning incident you're talking about. I was thinking of a mess of other ones.

If someone takes offense to something someone else says about the existence of a certain penchant in the people in their state when that person herself is nothing like that, this is not my problem.

[Calen]

It's really really sad. She's obviously crazy. What can you say when someone is obviously not of sound mind you know. It's a horrible tragedy.

Agreed. As easy as it is to look at something like this and say 'This person definitely deserves to die. Look at what they did!', it's obvious that this woman was severely mentally disturbed. She had no business with children, but she did have the right to whatever support necessary for her condition, and she never got it, for whatever reason.

Killing this woman won't bring her daughter back, and it will just end the life of a woman who obviously was never too in control to begin with. She needs help.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Again, see the "I don't care if it was offensive" statement. I don't even *remember* this drowning incident you're talking about. I was thinking of a mess of other ones.

If someone takes offense to something someone else says about the existence of a certain penchant in the people in their state when that person herself is nothing like that, this is not my problem.

You're right, but it is you're problem when you're being intentionally insulting. Whatever happend to manners and respect? :nuhuh:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Agreed. As easy as it is to look at something like this and say 'This person definitely deserves to die. Look at what they did!', it's obvious that this woman was severely mentally disturbed. She had no business with children, but she did have the right to whatever support necessary for her condition, and she never got it, for whatever reason.

Killing this woman won't bring her daughter back, and it will just end the life of a woman who obviously was never too in control to begin with. She needs help.

Again if you read the articles, she did get help. After seeing a therapist for months, he medically cleared her, saying she was not a danger to herself or others.

[Calen]

Again if you read the articles, she did get help. After seeing a therapist for months, he medically cleared her, saying she was not a danger to herself or others.

I did read the articles, but I was referring to the help she needs now, after the fact. Obviously, they aren't just going to say "Oh, she had PPP, it wasn't really her fault', and send her home. I just meant that she needs help, as opposed to being killed for murdering her child.

My bad though, for not making my meaning clearer.

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

First off, thank you for the negative karma, Rhiannon.

Straight from the Karma FAQ: "By giving or taking Karma ('karmalising', 'karma poking'), you can show your appreciation or disapproval of messages other members posted."

I disapproved. I took Karma. Nothing to be done about it now. Why you felt it needed to be shared is beyond me--but that was your choice.


Next, as I said in PM to you, I really don't care that you found it offensive. If I had posted that as the title and I *hadn't* read so many headlines about women from Texas who did something like this, I might apologize. But the fact is, I skimmed the whole article and said, "Let me guess... she's from Texas, right?" And sure enough, I was right. I was mad as hell, and the fact that I was right in my guess made me even angrier because I have no idea what on earth goes on down there that people there commit such abominable acts to children. I don't care about there being a death penalty or not. If you'd read my post carefully, you'd see that I either wanted her sterilized so she could never do that again to a child (if such a thing was legally possible) or else put out of her misery for doing something so reprehensible. I'm NOT backing down from that opinion. Deal with it.

I have never suggested that you change your opinion.


Am I someone who sympathizes with mental illness? Bet your butt I do, because I suffer from clinical depression. But if you willfully kill someone, regardless of your state of mind, you do NOT deserve to live anymore. Do I expect the judicial system to agree with me and sentence her to death? No, and I really don't care. I also don't care if you disagree. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

Exactly. As I said above, I have never indicated that you change your opinon. You have as much right to it as I do to disagree with you.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[Rowan MoonDragon]

I also feel sorry for this mother. She has to live with her action for the rest of her life and killing her will not solve anything. As a parent of 2 children, I dont think its a bad idea for pre parenting classes. I certainly dont know everything about raising kids and occassionally need help. I mean, we have to take a written and practical test for driving, for Pete's sake. And that is MUCH LESS important than raising children.

[BeachWitch]

But then that opens a huge can of worms: do you want government to decide who is and is not a fit parent?

Speaking from experience, the Government DOES decide who is and who isn't a good/fit parent. Just try and adopt a child from Social Sevices (DCFS or Foster). No woman who can naturally have her own children (ie get pregnant, carry the fetus to term and deliver a live birth) has to undergo such invasive treatment of their private lives.

Unless you can have a child the old fashioned way, the only other option is Adoption - and the only way to avoid Social Services is to go through a private lawyer.

[elfmage]

The poor child.

[Valnorran]

Speaking from experience, the Government DOES decide who is and who isn't a good/fit parent. Just try and adopt a child from Social Sevices (DCFS or Foster). No woman who can naturally have her own children (ie get pregnant, carry the fetus to term and deliver a live birth) has to undergo such invasive treatment of their private lives.

Unless you can have a child the old fashioned way, the only other option is Adoption - and the only way to avoid Social Services is to go through a private lawyer.
So now we extend it to those who give birth to their own children too?

[Sequoia]

Sequoia, as a new mother I would have found just such a thing as you are suggesting to be irritating, invasive and far too demanding of my time. For as many new mothers as you think would enjoy that, there are just as many whou wouldn't want to do it and would resent such an intrusion into their lives. I've seen a therapist in the past and there wasn't a thing about it I liked. It didn't help me in any way and if I were forced to do it, such as your suggesting, they would have a damn hard time getting me to cooperate.

As for this prescreening you are suggesting, a large number of women who suffere from PPD or PPP have never experienced depression or psychosis of any type in their lives. Pre-screening wouldn't do a thing to pinpoint this. Then there are other women, who do have a history of depression, such as myself, who never had a problem with PPD or PPP. But I would be automatically red-flagged because of it if they used pre-screening measures and I'd have to put up with a lot of extra crap that I don't want to deal with. It is not the way to handle it. Education and awareness is the only way it can be combated.

Good lord, I had no idea that suggesting that SOME new mothers might enjoy a break from the house would offend anyone so!

I wasn't suggesting that you be dragged kicking and screaming into therapy sessions. I said -if you'd read without jumping to the conclusion that I thought all new mothers were psychos who were overworked- that most new parents might really enjoy the oppourtunity to have someone to vent their worries, frustrations, and questions to.

The screening idea was one of *just after the birth* and perhaps a follow up at six months, to see how the mom and dad were doing both mentally and physically with relation to stress levels and the new baby.

Goodness, I wasn't suggesting that EVERY NEW MOTHER OMG should be dragged into a tiny room, beaten with a noodle, and that if they showed even the slightest symptom of sadness that they should be immediately put on a high dose of prozac and their babies bottle fed. I'm also not suggesting that any woman who shows signs of depression is a danger to their babies and that the children should be removed.

And No, I wasn't suggesting that the woman be forced into therapy if she's slightly sad or stressed. What I was suggesting is that if a woman DOES feel stressed and DOES show symptoms of post-partum depression or psychosis and would like to seek SOME kind of respite, that she be offered free or low-cost therapy, clinic, support group, whatever variant you personally approve of for the rest of the country. Goodness. Just because you feel threatened and like I'm suggesting that you should personally be dragged in because you used to suffer from depression... Honey, I'm not suggesting anything of that sort. I'm not saying that women who have been depressed in the past should have their children taken away. Nor that they should be forced to take an hour out of their lives each week and go sit on a couch in front of a doctor. God forbid you think I'm saying you're a bad mother, because I should hope you realize that I'm not.

Don't take things so personally. For as many mothers who are insulted by the thought that they might benefit from a class or a session with a therapist, there are JUST as many who would leap at the chance to let out all their questions, frustrations, rants and raves to an impartial ear. There are JUST as many new parents who don't know the difference between a spitup and projectile vomiting, and would happily benefit from a one-time class just before or shortly after birth.

This isn't a personal attack on mothers who are depressed, so don't take it that way. It was a suggestion, not a mandate.

[WingedTigerChild]

Schlosser must suffer from something other than postpartum depression because I have bipolar disorder and I'm not "out of my mind," so to speak. Perhaps she suffers from schizophrenia, like that Yates woman. People with schizophrenia are a lot like people with bipolar disorder, except that instead of high and low moods, they tend to differentiate between "normalcy" and episodes of complete "insanity." In some ways, it's also quite similar to multiple-personality disorder, but please don't mistake the two as being the same thing (a common misconception).


Department of human services said she was not a threat to her children. I am sorry, sick or not, these people do not deserve to be alive, can you imagine what it must have been like for the child.
Schlosser could have been completely normal at the time of her evaluation, thereby leading them to believe she was no threat at all to her children. This happens a lot, I think. Esp. with people who suffer from schizophrenia, as I explained above. Furthermore, the fact that you say, "sick or not, these people do not deserve to be alive," shows you have little to no understanding of severe psychosis, and so I ask that you refrain from such harsh judgements in the future. Thanks.

I encourage you to check out schizophrenia.com (http://www.schizophrenia.com/ami/).



What really bothers me about these mothers killing their children cases, is that it seems that MOST of the time, they DONT get the death penalty and to me, if any type of murder deserves the death penalty, it is killing your own kid! I mean, sometimes these people are charged only with child abuse of some sort! If I kill a stranger, is there EVER a chance that I would be charged with nothing more than aggravated assault? I think not! I think it has to do with the idea that we are so outraged at such an act that we feel the person must be mentally ill, and they probably are; however, mentally ill and legally insane (as in not responsible for the crime) are VERY different things!

I find this incredibly sad and certainly wish this woman had gotten some help, but eeesh! I would like to here her "reason" for this action, I cannot even imagine what it might be!
Please check out that link I posted. Schlosser's reason may seem absurd to us, but you must remember that she probably believed she was doing right at the time.


Interesting that people who've probably never suffered depression could make the judgment that someone else doesn't deserve to live.

The woman doesn't need a death sentence (though because she is in Texas she'll probably get one anyway). She needs professional counseling and medication. Though I would agree, she shouldn't be allowed to bring any more children into the world.
Indeed.


When is Society going to take Post-partum Depression seriously? How many families will be destroyed before the Medical Community realizes the catastophic consequences of severe Depression?
I think it was far more than just depression, as I've stated previously, but I most certainly agree that more people need to be made aware of depression and mental illness, and that more needs to be done. Absolutely.


that's a good question. I, myself, just yesterday, had a pre-therapy screening call to be assigned to a therapist. My reason: Severe depression & past suicidal tendencies beginning to resurface due to a relationship with many many issues/problems. What happened? The screener suggested I should wait until February 05 to attend a group class.

"So, you have a gun in your mouth right now? You're afraid you'll shoot yourself? OK. Please wait 3 months for assistance."

Ok, so it's a slight exaggeration, but only slight. I had to insist on an appt with a psychiatrist & insist that I need help NOW before I could get an appt made.

How do you let somebody out of a pyschological/psychiatric evaluation for severe depression & a psychotic episode without follow up?
I'm sorry about your son, but yeah, what you've said is so true. They make you wait and wait and then when you finally get in, you find out that all they want to do is medicate you!!! :mad: Either that, or they give you only so much time in a session when you're paying like $500 a session or whatever...it's unbelievable. It really is.


Considering that post-partum psychosis is caused by post pregnancy hormones, I agree that more children is a bad idea.

I think the whole thing is a tragedy. I do not think that the death penalty is the solution though. Consider that this woman when in her right mind probably truly adored her children. She is going to have to live with what she did. Let her. The death penalty is not going to help the dead child and it is not going to prevent deaths caused by postpartum psychosis. It is not going to help her surviving children who need to know that their mother does love them - she is simply mentally ill. These women are not acting under their right minds. After the fact, THEY likely WANT to die. Imagine waking from a nightmare to the realization that you had just killed your child. Would you want to live? It is a complete tragedy all around.

(I don't blame the child-services though - it sounds like they did intervene and did not suspect that she was not safe, so had not taken further action. Though I have to say that in the cases of postpartum psychosis, I really think that a mother's helper should be a REQUIRED part of the treatment until the child is out of diapers. Don't play guessing games as to when it is over until the child can talk.
I agree. Although, living with someone who is as ill as she is, well...it can be very emotionally and psychologically traumatizing...especially for her eldest children. Trust me. I've been where they are.


I DO blame the father. This guy DID know there was a problem. He called to have someone check on her. How did he know? Why didn't he go check on them right away himself? Did he leave the house for work KNOWING she was having an episode??? He probably will not have any charges brought against him and the surviving children will still be entrusted to his care. He was supposedly sane and knew that his wife was not).
Like I've said, you cannot predict an episode. I think you've judge the father unfairly. He called in for someone to check up on them.


If you'd read my post carefully, you'd see that I either wanted her sterilized so she could never do that again to a child (if such a thing was legally possible) or else put out of her misery for doing something so reprehensible. I'm NOT backing down from that opinion. Deal with it.

Am I someone who sympathizes with mental illness? Bet your butt I do, because I suffer from clinical depression. But if you willfully kill someone, regardless of your state of mind, you do NOT deserve to live anymore. Do I expect the judicial system to agree with me and sentence her to death? No, and I really don't care. I also don't care if you disagree. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

You're also entitled to the opinion that the sky is neon green, but that don't make it so. As much as I dislike my mother, I would never in good conscience have her put to death. Not even after all she's done. Do you even know what it's like to have a mother who's completely out of her mind?


As for this prescreening you are suggesting, a large number of women who suffere from PPD or PPP have never experienced depression or psychosis of any type in their lives. Pre-screening wouldn't do a thing to pinpoint this. Then there are other women, who do have a history of depression, such as myself, who never had a problem with PPD or PPP. But I would be automatically red-flagged because of it if they used pre-screening measures and I'd have to put up with a lot of extra crap that I don't want to deal with. It is not the way to handle it. Education and awareness is the only way it can be combated.

I agree. I wouldn't want to be labelled as an unfit parent by some doctor or whoever just because I'm bipolar.

[karma_lives]

This woman deliberately severed the arms off her baby.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/23/severed.arms.ap/index.html

I swear, it's something in the water down there, or maybe the heat addles these women's brains.

Mentally ill or not, I hope this woman is sterilized if not put to death.
I completely agree

[WingedTigerChild]

Did you even read my post? How can you agree with putting her to death?

[Xentor]

Admin Mode

Calm down. All of you.

The situation itself is bad enough. Don't make a scene out of this.

[Xentor]

How did I know it was a woman in Texas?

Good question. How did you know?

[Darakash]

Did you even read my post? How can you agree with putting her to death?

Well speaking for me, because I disagree with you....as I stated in my previous post, to which your response was that I should check out a website on schizophrenia...I asserted and still assert that there is a difference, a major one, between mental illness and LEGAL insanity. To be considered legally insane and therefore, not responsible for committing a crime, the defense has to prove that the defendant was unaware at the time of the crime that their actions were wrong, illegal, etc. This woman obviously knew that her actions were wrong, otherwise, why would she have called 911? If she was delusional to the point of thinking that her actions were correct then, it seems to me, she wouldn't have called for help at all. Also, if, as you suggest, she is schizophrenic, why wasn't such an illness detected in her previous counseling?

Of course, not knowing all of the facts, I am not stating that she definitely deserves the death penalty; I was (in my previous post) merely stating that in the other cases I have seen, such as Susan Smith(To NeferSesemet, she killed her children by driving them into a lake, basically because her new man didn't want kids), mothers who kill there children are given far too much leeway compared to other murderers. Let us face it, unless one kills in self defense, anyone who kills someone COULD be seen as mentally ill, but we don't just say, "oh poor you, we will get you some counseling." I am not even a supporter of the death penalty for the most part; however, if the purpose of the death penalty is to rid society of those who commit the most heinious crimes, it seems to me that a mother who is capable of killing her own children/child fits that bill more than someone who kills a policeman (a capital offense).

DK

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Good lord, I had no idea that suggesting that SOME new mothers might enjoy a break from the house would offend anyone so!

I wasn't suggesting that you be dragged kicking and screaming into therapy sessions. I said -if you'd read without jumping to the conclusion that I thought all new mothers were psychos who were overworked- that most new parents might really enjoy the oppourtunity to have someone to vent their worries, frustrations, and questions to.

The screening idea was one of *just after the birth* and perhaps a follow up at six months, to see how the mom and dad were doing both mentally and physically with relation to stress levels and the new baby.

Goodness, I wasn't suggesting that EVERY NEW MOTHER OMG should be dragged into a tiny room, beaten with a noodle, and that if they showed even the slightest symptom of sadness that they should be immediately put on a high dose of prozac and their babies bottle fed. I'm also not suggesting that any woman who shows signs of depression is a danger to their babies and that the children should be removed.

And No, I wasn't suggesting that the woman be forced into therapy if she's slightly sad or stressed. What I was suggesting is that if a woman DOES feel stressed and DOES show symptoms of post-partum depression or psychosis and would like to seek SOME kind of respite, that she be offered free or low-cost therapy, clinic, support group, whatever variant you personally approve of for the rest of the country. Goodness. Just because you feel threatened and like I'm suggesting that you should personally be dragged in because you used to suffer from depression... Honey, I'm not suggesting anything of that sort. I'm not saying that women who have been depressed in the past should have their children taken away. Nor that they should be forced to take an hour out of their lives each week and go sit on a couch in front of a doctor. God forbid you think I'm saying you're a bad mother, because I should hope you realize that I'm not.

Don't take things so personally. For as many mothers who are insulted by the thought that they might benefit from a class or a session with a therapist, there are JUST as many who would leap at the chance to let out all their questions, frustrations, rants and raves to an impartial ear. There are JUST as many new parents who don't know the difference between a spitup and projectile vomiting, and would happily benefit from a one-time class just before or shortly after birth.

This isn't a personal attack on mothers who are depressed, so don't take it that way. It was a suggestion, not a mandate.

I didn't even come close to saying any of those words you just put in my mouth. All I said is that I think pre-screening and parenting classes mandated by the government, which is what you were suggesting, is a bad idea and I gave reasons why. The idea may not start out that way, but the way the government works that's what it will turn into. If you don't think that they would redflag people who have in the past suffered from some form of mental illness, you obviously need to take a better look at our government who seems to think that we can't even have sex without them holding our hands.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Well speaking for me, because I disagree with you....as I stated in my previous post, to which your response was that I should check out a website on schizophrenia...I asserted and still assert that there is a difference, a major one, between mental illness and LEGAL insanity. To be considered legally insane and therefore, not responsible for committing a crime, the defense has to prove that the defendant was unaware at the time of the crime that their actions were wrong, illegal, etc. This woman obviously knew that her actions were wrong, otherwise, why would she have called 911? If she was delusional to the point of thinking that her actions were correct then, it seems to me, she wouldn't have called for help at all. Also, if, as you suggest, she is schizophrenic, why wasn't such an illness detected in her previous counseling?DK

It wasn't detected because she was suffereing from Post Partum Psychosis which is quite different from PPD or schizophrenia. Psychotic episodes can't be predicted and the person is completely out of their mind when it occurs. They don't have a clue as to what they are doing.

And she didn't call 911. The child-care facility that was checking up on her called 911. 911 called the mother after speaking with them. Yes she did answer their questions and told them what she did, but judging from the explination of the phone call in which she was eeriely calm, I highly doubt she realized the magnitude of what she had done.

[TWILIGHTSKY]

This makes me so sad and sick. That poor child...

[violet rain]

OMG What d you thin truely goes through their heads when there harming there own chilldren!!!!! Thats terribly sad

[AugustFirst]

This woman deliberately severed the arms off her baby.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/23/severed.arms.ap/index.html

I swear, it's something in the water down there, or maybe the heat addles these women's brains.

Mentally ill or not, I hope this woman is sterilized if not put to death.

Stuff like that happens everywhere, not just Texas. I live in NJ and in the past month were have had: teens club a homeless man, a couple starved their baby to death, a girl beat her baby to death.

[Calyx]

Stuff like that happens everywhere, not just Texas. I live in NJ and in the past month were have had: teens club a homeless man, a couple starved their baby to death, a girl beat her baby to death.
I'm sure they were probably transplanted Texans. After all, we have a penchant for killing our chlidren you know. :mad:

[banondraig]

I'm sure they were probably transplanted Texans. After all, we have a penchant for killing our chlidren you know. :mad:

only in people's imagination. i mean, given the large population of texas, statistically, there are going to be a few more cases of crazy stuff happening there tham in most other states.

[Calyx]

only in people's imagination. i mean, given the large population of texas, statistically, there are going to be a few more cases of crazy stuff happening there tham in most other states.
Hmm, agreed! :)
Actually, statistically, we are in the middle of the pack as far as child abuse/neglect, etc. reports go.

[gurlygurl2004]

I don't understand severing your baby, thats way too far. Anyway i hope she does get a long sentence.

[Old Witch]

NeferSesmet, but that fact that you automatically assumed the woman was from Texas was what was so offensive. There are far more healthy and sane parents down there then there are people who aren't.

I hear of just as many heinous crimes being commited in New York and California. The woman who drove her three kids into the lake wasn't from Texas, she was from North Carolina. How would you like it assumed that wherever you're from was stereotyped in such an awful way? It's one thing to say that people are hicks and rednecks, it's another thing to characterize them all as being mentally ill and bad parents.


Actually Susan Smith, the woman who drove her three kids into the lake was from SC...And we all wanted her dead.... "We" meaning my friends and I....Except for one of my little senior clients, who wanted to dip her very slowly into boiling oil...no kidding!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Sorry I knew it was one of the two, but really I was just using it as an example of people doing things just as sick as what this woman did all over the country and by far they aren't all in Texas.

[Old Witch]

Did you even read my post? How can you agree with putting her to death?


I can disagree because I think you are wrong! And I am entitled to my opinion as much as you are. Just because you say it is so doesn't make it so....

[AugustFirst]

I'm sure they were probably transplanted Texans. After all, we have a penchant for killing our chlidren you know. :mad:

Calyx, I love Texas and Texans. I was there as a child (Laredo AF base) and have since visited often. Austin, Gruene, San Ant. I always have THE BEST time!!!

Don't mess with Texas! ;)

[Calyx]

Calyx, I love Texas and Texans. I was there as a child (Laredo AF base) and have since visited often. Austin, Gruene, San Ant. I always have THE BEST time!!!

Don't mess with Texas! ;)
Yay for Texas! We really are nice folks here. :chatty:

[SS'sBaby]

Mòrag Elasaid MacDhòmhnaill ......don't sweat it.
I moved to Houston recently ....well outside of it actually....
and the things people say about Texas seriously amuse me.
But I plan to warn people if I ever feel the need to chop off baby arms.......
In fact I think I might start drinking bottled water. :alol:

[Celtic Solstice]

postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, well I am not going to get into but they are both types of depression and neither are fun to go through.



They are very different, and PPP is not simply a kind of depression. Just because they both occur post partum, and just because sometimes PPD is present in women who have PPP does not make them the same thing. They are specifically uncertain of the causes of PPP. You can have PPP without PPD.

I can't say I really want to get into this either. I generally try to avoid threads on tragedies like this (we don't know the details). The thing is that depression is stigmatized enough without people going around saying that "depression" causes people to mutilate and murder their kids. How would you like to be a depressed mother who has to hide that she is depressed because the moment you mention it, people think of YATES and start wondering if they should take away your kids?!

The woman was psychotic (and Yates was schizophrenic on top of that, and we don't know all the details of this particular case). I'm sorry but I think it is important to distinguish between the two.

Lots of people suffer from depression and do not go around murdering their children. Being around a depressed parent is not fun and treatment and SUPPORT is very important. It is hard enough going through depression for these parents without having them avoid admitting their depression because they fear it means they will go off the deep-end, torture and murder their kids.

Frankly, we probably should all just avoid speculating about it all. *sigh*

Celtic Solstice

[SilverClaw]

Celtic Solstice I guess it varies where you get your information from, I just know that having had postpardum depression and symptoms of the other type mentioned that neither is fun. Thanks for sharing your views though.

[flar7]

Sorry, but I find mental illness as an excuse to forgive a crime one of our greater failings in the justice system. If you commit murder, not self defense, then you should pe punished by whatever that state uses as its stiffest sentence for such crime. Its one of those hard choices, but its a equal one.

Its sad that someone has a breakdown, but lets not forget that they killed someone. This person will never love again, marry, have kids, etc. That is a tragedy, not punishing the guilty. Does a mentally insane person, who just killed someone, deserve treatment? That depends on your theological outlook. If so, they still deserve the punishment that such a crime would mandate........even if that means treatment then lethal injection.

[Phoenix Blue]

Sorry, but I find mental illness as an excuse to forgive a crime one of our greater failings in the justice system. If you commit murder, not self defense, then you should pe punished by whatever that state uses as its stiffest sentence for such crime. Its one of those hard choices, but its a equal one.
No one's saying she should be forgiven (though, honestly, it's really not our place to forgive or not - that sort of thing is between her and her God). What I have said, at least once already, is that our government should not put a woman to death when the more humane (and cheaper) option is to give her the psychiatric help she needs to live a productive life again.

[flar7]

"humane" is a nice word. Unfortunately its not nice for everyone. Doesnt help the dead people at all, not much help for the survivors of murdered people either. Nor does it replace the loss of such. And a death sentence is much cheaper than years of therapy if done correctly. It should take less than a year to be sentenced and to die by lethal drug injection. :geez:

[BeachWitch]

Well flar, once again you have me on the fence. Why do you always put me up here? LOL!

I agree that punishment is required, and I'm sure a death sentence would be far cheaper than life on Death Row where the tax payers foot the bill while this woman langors.

However, ....... I know a thing or two about Depression and Psychotic episodes. I am fortunate that when the psychosis triggers, I don't want to kill any other person, I just want to kill myself. I guess you could say my illness is self-contained in that sense.

My issue with PPD and PPP is that like Depression, it's often caught too late. My psychosis was not discovered until I tried to commit suicide. It has taken years of therapy and one boat load of anti-depressants, anti-psychotics and anti-anxieties to finally get back to normal. Same thing with Yates, same with this woman. The illness is recognized but it's not treated aggressively enough.

Those of us with Severe Depression know a horrible truth about our illness: we believe that since TODAY I don't want to die, and TODAY I feel really good, therefore I do not need to take those dumb pills.

WRONG!!!

Our phyche's lure us into believing we are healthy and don't need to take pills, because only sick people take pills. For depressive people, "forgetting" to take the pills is one of our biggest enemies. We have to be watched every day that we take the pill. Some one has to be counting the pills daily to make sure we take them.

That is why I ask, when is Society going to take Mental Illness more seriously? In this tragic case, 2 little girls have lost their Mommy, a husband has lost a wife and his child- this family has suffered catastrophically because someone in the chain of medical doctors, government agencies and family members, dropped the ball big time and did not pay attention to the warning signs that Mom was loosing it.

And yes, there are signs. My family took the time to watch for the signals, the behaviors, and they swoop in to make sure I get help fast. Someone in this Mother's life failed, fell asleep at the wheel so to speak, and now a family is destroyed and a child is dead.

So flar, while I agree with your opinion that punishment should be metted out, I also find myself asking, what about the rest of the care givers?
Who is going to hold these "professionals" accountable for dropping the ball?
Should they be punished as well? Why or why not?
How do we as a society decide to treat mental illness and the victims of mental illness?

[Katya]

oh my goddess this pisses me off. never ever in my whole entire life would i EVER harm a child of my own.

like that one comedian said.. "as for death row.. here in texas we have an express lane."

well, USE it then!

[Phoenix Blue]

Unfortunately its not nice for everyone. Doesnt help the dead people at all, not much help for the survivors of murdered people either. Nor does it replace the loss of such.
:eyebrow: And putting someone to death accomplishes what, exactly? Does it bring the victim back to life?

The survivors are responsible for their own healing. Seeing another human put to death should not accomplish that. Blood does not cry out for blood; it cries out for peace.

[WingedTigerChild]

I asserted and still assert that there is a difference, a major one, between mental illness and LEGAL insanity. To be considered legally insane and therefore, not responsible for committing a crime, the defense has to prove that the defendant was unaware at the time of the crime that their actions were wrong, illegal, etc.
This is true and I'm not making excuses for the mother, what she did was truly horrible and I do hope that she is punished for her crime.


This woman obviously knew that her actions were wrong, otherwise, why would she have called 911? If she was delusional to the point of thinking that her actions were correct then, it seems to me, she wouldn't have called for help at all. Also, if, as you suggest, she is schizophrenic, why wasn't such an illness detected in her previous counseling?
Psychotic episodes are not specific in how long they last, and often come virtually out of nowhere, at least for some. Maybe she called 911 when the episode ended? The article doesn't give specifics. My mother had and espisode where she overdosed and then almost immediately afterward, called 911.


Of course, not knowing all of the facts, I am not stating that she definitely deserves the death penalty; I was (in my previous post) merely stating that in the other cases I have seen, such as Susan Smith(To NeferSesemet, she killed her children by driving them into a lake, basically because her new man didn't want kids), mothers who kill there children are given far too much leeway compared to other murderers. Let us face it, unless one kills in self defense, anyone who kills someone COULD be seen as mentally ill, but we don't just say, "oh poor you, we will get you some counseling."
True again, but as you stated previously, there is "mentally ill" and "legally insane." This woman could easily be legally insane.


I am not even a supporter of the death penalty for the most part; however, if the purpose of the death penalty is to rid society of those who commit the most heinious crimes, it seems to me that a mother who is capable of killing her own children/child fits that bill more than someone who kills a policeman (a capital offense).
I agree. I just don't think executing this woman (at least before she has received treatment for her mental instability that could have well played a part [either in part or completely] in her murdering her child) is the right course. In fact, keeping her alive might well be better, as I know from personal experience that death/the thought of death can be a blessing when you're living with guilt.


I can disagree because I think you are wrong! And I am entitled to my opinion as much as you are. Just because you say it is so doesn't make it so....
Yes, but are you speaking from personal experience (having been in a similar situation), or are you just speaking your opinion? Because I am speaking from personal experience.


My issue with PPD and PPP is that like Depression, it's often caught too late. My psychosis was not discovered until I tried to commit suicide. It has taken years of therapy and one boat load of anti-depressants, anti-psychotics and anti-anxieties to finally get back to normal. Same thing with Yates, same with this woman. The illness is recognized but it's not treated aggressively enough.

WRONG!!!

Our phyche's lure us into believing we are healthy and don't need to take pills, because only sick people take pills. For depressive people, "forgetting" to take the pills is one of our biggest enemies. We have to be watched every day that we take the pill. Some one has to be counting the pills daily to make sure we take them.
That's what it was like with my mother. She's on meds, but you can still tell that something just isn't 'right' with her. As for me, my meds don't seem to be doing a thing for my depression. I have been thankful enough not to have had any major psychotic episodes, but the doctors say it could be genetic, so I'm just praying.


That is why I ask, when is Society going to take Mental Illness more seriously? In this tragic case, 2 little girls have lost their Mommy, a husband has lost a wife and his child- this family has suffered catastrophically because someone in the chain of medical doctors, government agencies and family members, dropped the ball big time and did not pay attention to the warning signs that Mom was loosing it.

And yes, there are signs. My family took the time to watch for the signals, the behaviors, and they swoop in to make sure I get help fast. Someone in this Mother's life failed, fell asleep at the wheel so to speak, and now a family is destroyed and a child is dead.
While I agree with you for the most part, I have to say that there are not always signs. Usually, but there were like none with my mother. It was like she woke up one day and decided to go insane. Of course, I don't believe that's what actually happened, but that's what it seemed like.


So flar, while I agree with your opinion that punishment should be metted out, I also find myself asking, what about the rest of the care givers?
Who is going to hold these "professionals" accountable for dropping the ball?
Should they be punished as well? Why or why not?
How do we as a society decide to treat mental illness and the victims of mental illness?
Exactly.

[SS'sBaby]

"as for death row.. here in texas we have an express lane."

OMG! I love Ron White.......glad to see I'm not the only one. My father and he were the epitomey of each other. Now you guys can understand my weird personality quirks and strange humour being as it is.

But honestly guys...wanting the woman dead and having her die for her crime isn't going to help. Not in this case.

She really needs extreme and intensive help. And we should all hope they lock her a way permanently in a hospital so that she can no longer hurt others or herself.

As well as pray...send healing energy etc. for all those concerned and hope her other two children did not endure much abuse at her hands.

This one has lost touch with reality, reason, and logic.

[flar7]

:eyebrow: And putting someone to death accomplishes what, exactly? Does it bring the victim back to life?

The survivors are responsible for their own healing. Seeing another human put to death should not accomplish that. Blood does not cry out for blood; it cries out for peace.
It guarantees that such a person will never commit such a crime again. Ever. I also was not specific in saying that she must die, I compared the cost for you, but I advocate punishment of whatever form that state promotes without lessening the sentence for reasons of insanity........ or as they seem to be saying now.... "I guess he shoulda rolled his **** in little balls."

WingedTigerChild, OW has been much closer in that area than you think. The harm inflicted on the survivors of such trauma is as horrible or worse since they likely were extremely close to the killer as well. In fact, they may promote the idea of a "lesser" sentence due to mental illness, but it doesnt change the crime. The victim is dead, never to return.

I also fail to see anything "humane" in a lifelong imprisonment in an asylum. Lets not be wishy washy in wording. Punish them as a felon.........."not guilty by reason of insanity?" Do your quick time in the institute and all is well. Dont forget your meds later, hate to try you again......oops......still ill? Ok, well............still not guilty..... Responsibility is a hard life lesson, second chances are very rare and not deserving in most cases like this.

Suicidal depression? Yep, but here you have one person ending their own life, the justice system has no avenue to punish you, since you are dead. Be assured, you inflicted as much harm on family and friends, maybe more, as if you killed someone else. This form of crime leaves the largest hole in the victims family......with no closure of any kind and only questions.

Should the medical community be responsible? To an extent, yes. If you have already been diagnosed with a condition, then your physician should be partly culpable for your actions......You would see a more aggressive treatment and likely a thinning of the quacks. Downside, insurance for them would skyrocket, and the market of talent would dwindle. Since PPD is so well known, it should always be monitored for in every instance. A care plan should be in place before the mother leaves the hospital and failure to follow up by her should result in the loss of parental rights until the doctor or courts are satisfied.

Someone has said it before, you have to have a license for so many things in this country, but yet any yahoo can have a baby and attempt to raise it.

[enchancea]

Thats just sick!

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

A care plan should be in place before the mother leaves the hospital and failure to follow up by her should result in the loss of parental rights until the doctor or courts are satisfied.

Before the mother leaves the hospital? You can't diagnose PPD or PPP before the mother and child leave the hospital. It takes weeks to appear in many cases. It's certainly not going to be evident before leaving the hospital. As for removing all parental rights (which includes being able to see the child or children) would only make the depression worse, it wouldn't help anything. Not to mention that depression isn't something that can just be cured, sure it might get better, but it never goes away completely. Certainly if a woman suffering from PPD or PPP (especially that latter) she shouldn't be left alone with the child in case she were to suffer a psychotic break, but removing all parental rights would be the biggest mistake that could be made.

[Phoenix Blue]

It guarantees that such a person will never commit such a crime again. Ever.
Seems to me that sterilization would have the same effect. And it would be a lot more humane. That's all I'm sayin'.

[BeachWitch]

Before the mother leaves the hospital? You can't diagnose PPD or PPP before the mother and child leave the hospital. It takes weeks to appear in many cases. It's certainly not going to be evident before leaving the hospital.

I believe this is considered PREVENTATIVE care. The practice would prevent PPD or PPP to negatively affect the Mother, the Child and the Family.

Women get PAP smears regularly to screen for Cervical Cancer. The test is administered regardless of family history or evidence of the disease. Why not have the same sort of preventative care for new mothers?

Worst case scenario is that the mother attends some therapy sessions and gives her a chance to acquire tools and ideas to help her be a better mother over all.

Better yet, when the depressed mother misses 2 appointments a red flag triggers for the medical professionals to take a closer look and catch the disease before it causes tremendous damage.

[WingedTigerChild]

I guess your idea could work, but I'd be concerned about all mothers with depression being targeted and labelled as insane.

[flar7]

Seems to me that sterilization would have the same effect. And it would be a lot more humane. That's all I'm sayin'.
Yes, if she only had the one child. Seems she has a few extra already. Also, wont prevent an episode of violence where she kills someone else.


and yes, I was mentioning preventative care for all mothers regardless of whether they develop PPD or not. Like the idea of a flu shot.

[flar7]

I guess your idea could work, but I'd be concerned about all mothers with depression being targeted and labelled as insane.
If you have been diagnosed by a psychologist or psychiatrist as having depression.......thats a permanent mark on your record. You will never be "cured" and will always be considered "under treatment." It never will be removed. PSYCH 101. That is why doctors are supposed to be very wary of "diagnosing" a person with a mental condition, for it stays in their history and will affect their future. Ask about it, your doctor should have told you this or mentioned in your first meeting.

[WingedTigerChild]

I know that. I just mean that not all of us depressed folk are unfit parents (or babysitters). Sure, they should keep tabs on our mental health, but freaking out and taking the kids away just because mum is depressed is (to me) just going too far. Thus my concern. I'm not disagreeing with you, simply just saying that there should be limits set.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

BeachWitch, I already had this discussion earlier in thread. It's a very bad idea. They don't know which mothers are going to suffer PPD or PPP, so what they're going to do is look at women who have a past history of depression and they are going to get red-flagged. I personally hated attending therapy and wouldn't go, whether it was required or not. It didn't do a damn thing for my depression, because talking to a perfect stranger about my problems/issues is not something I want to do. Does that mean I should get another red-flag because I would refuse to be forced into doing something I don't want to? Personally I think your worst-case scenario sucks.

You can't determine who's going to have a mental illness in the same way you can determine who's going to have an easily detectable disease such as cervical cancer. There aren't any tests that you can administer that are going to say, oh this woman is more likely to have PPD or PPP. It's impossible to detect it until after it's already happened. Yes, women who do end up suffering should get treatment and get lots of help, but don't try and treat healthy people if they don't want it.

The flu shot was brought up as an example. I refuse to get a flu shot. You know why, because they're injecting you with a live virus. That doesn't sound like a good idea to me. And neither does being treated for PPD or PPP which I may or may not ever suffer from.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

Okay, after having read an article in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette that says the woman told her husband the night before that she was going to "send her to God" I change my mind that she just needs treatment for mental health issues. She needs to go to jail and so does the husband because he knew then that she was a threat and still left her alone with the baby and didn't do anything about it. He should have called her doctors then and there and taken the baby and the other two children to a safe place, such as a realitve or friend's home.

[BeachWitch]

BeachWitch, I already had this discussion earlier in thread. It's a very bad idea. They don't know which mothers are going to suffer PPD or PPP, so what they're going to do is look at women who have a past history of depression and they are going to get red-flagged.

I never said only women with a past history, I said ALL new mothers. Red-flagging only the mothers with a past history is nothing more than discrimination and down right ugly. And quite frankly, a history of Depression does not mean the mother is going to automatically develop PPP or PPD, as you said earier.

But I understand that it could easily be reduced to that type of scenario, thereby defeating the purpose entirely.

As for therapy, I do understand. I've fired at least 3 therapists in my time because they had no desire to connect with me, I was "just a patient" thereby keeping them in the "perfect stranger" category, not really caring about my issues and actually becoming combative on the issues of my depression.

Five years ago I stopped receiving the flu shot because every year I had one I got deathly ill with the flu anyway - it seemed to me that getting the shot just guaranteed that I would get sick. So I agree with you on that issue.

[flar7]

...It didn't do a damn thing for my depression, because talking to a perfect stranger about my problems/issues is not something I want to do. Does that mean I should get another red-flag because I would refuse to be forced into doing something I don't want to? Personally I think your worst-case scenario sucks....
the flu shot is a dead virus. Likely, people would choose seeing a counselor on a periodic basis if it meant keeping their child, dont you think?

and screening for PPD is easy. You know who wont get it? People who didnt have babies. Does this mean that people who do have babies will get it? no, but a follow up program to check for PPD or to just give a bit of help to a new mother wont hurt them either unless the mother cannot put down her stubborness for the sake of her family.

[flar7]

...As for therapy, I do understand. I've fired at least 3 therapists in my time because they had no desire to connect with me, I was "just a patient" thereby keeping them in the "perfect stranger" category, not really caring about my issues and actually becoming combative on the issues of my depression...
But, dont you think that if Therapist were held accountable, or at least partially so, for some of the actions of their patients that you would see a radical shift in the amount of attention and degree of caring? Likely it would be hug central up in dat house.

again, as to the flu shot...... if you want it, you take it, if you are willing to risk the consequences of not having it, thats cool to. Many jobs require you to get the vaccine, there is no choice in the matter. Mostly with public relations types or Health care.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

the flu shot is a dead virus. Likely, people would choose seeing a counselor on a periodic basis if it meant keeping their child, dont you think?

and screening for PPD is easy. You know who wont get it? People who didnt have babies. Does this mean that people who do have babies will get it? no, but a follow up program to check for PPD or to just give a bit of help to a new mother wont hurt them either unless the mother cannot put down her stubborness for the sake of her family.

There already are follow ups. All new mothers are required to get a follow-up check at six weeks with their doctors. Their ob-gyns or midwives are suppossed to discuss not just physical health issues with them, but also answer any questions they might have about raising the child, and they ask you questions that are related to mental health issues to check for PPD/PPP. Not only that, before I even got out of the hospital I was pamphlets and brochures out the wazzoo about PPD/PPP, including business cards of a couple therapists to speak with should I begin to exhibit anything resembling PPD/PPP. Required mental health visits are a violation of my privacy and my rights. My dislike of the idea has absolutely nothing to do with stubborness and everything to do with how it would actually be put into effect. If it should ever be put into place that the government would take away my child just because I don't want to see a therapist for "preventative care", as is my right, then this isn't a place I would want to live, and that is nothing I would ever say lightly, as I love this country.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I never said only women with a past history, I said ALL new mothers. Red-flagging only the mothers with a past history is nothing more than discrimination and down right ugly. And quite frankly, a history of Depression does not mean the mother is going to automatically develop PPP or PPD, as you said earier.

But I understand that it could easily be reduced to that type of scenario, thereby defeating the purpose entirely.

As for therapy, I do understand. I've fired at least 3 therapists in my time because they had no desire to connect with me, I was "just a patient" thereby keeping them in the "perfect stranger" category, not really caring about my issues and actually becoming combative on the issues of my depression.

Five years ago I stopped receiving the flu shot because every year I had one I got deathly ill with the flu anyway - it seemed to me that getting the shot just guaranteed that I would get sick. So I agree with you on that issue.

I know you didn't say only women with a past history. My point was that even though all women would be required to see a therapist after childbirth (perish the thought) women who have a history of depression or other mental illnesses would be treated as far more likely to suffer from PPD/PPP. They would be watched much closer and if they exhibited even the slightest hint of depression, they would wind up labeled as having PPD and all sorts of problems would result from that. I can just imagine, only supervised time with your child, put on anti-depressents, etc., etc., etc.

[flar7]

according to my doctor, most PPD is related to poor nutrition during the pregnancy tossing off the hormonal/electrolyte/protien balance, directly affecting the mental status. So, a follow up would not necessarily mean straight counseling, its more of a health thing as well.

[SilverClaw]

Ok Flar I have had 3 pregncies and I have never heard of that before. Very itneresting, even though I do find it hard to beleive.

[flar7]

well, since it falls under homeopathic therapy stuff, most mainstream docs dont pay it no attention. The problem occurs when the fetus is robbing the mother of more nutrients than she can afford and she is not getting enough in or has a problem absorbing her nutrients.

[equinox2]

When this story broke, I worried that it would be another one where the mother thought it was "what God wants", and sadly, it was. Now someone writing for a newspaper has noticed the same thing.


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1994&dept_id=339096&newsid=13548481&PAG=461&rfi=9


I don't think "religion" per se is to blame. I think instead that any religion (or even ideology) that controls one's life (and especially their information sources) is partly to blame.

These happen both in Christian religions (like the mass suicide of over 900 Christians at Jonestown) and in non-Christian religions (like the Heaven's Gate deaths a few years ago - I think Heaven's Gate was kinda New - Agey, right?).

Just like alcohol, I think controlled use can be good, and that it shouldn't be banned, yet, each of us must monitor ourselves to prevent the harm that can occur. Thoughts? :whatgives

Take care-

[BeachWitch]

From the News story posted above:

The Schlossers attended the non-denominational Water of Life church, led by Doyle Davidson, a self-proclaimed prophet who teaches that women possess a rebellious jezebel spirit and that the Ten Commandments don't apply to the righteous.

Can you imagine that this preacher is considered normal? How is it possible that these "scholars" are dismissing the role of religion in these mother's pychotic breaks with reality? Religion isn't about God or the Bible. Religion is about the "prophets" who interrpret and twist God and the Bible.

[Aelfoak]

This woman deliberately severed the arms off her baby.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/23/severed.arms.ap/index.html

I swear, it's something in the water down there, or maybe the heat addles these women's brains.

Mentally ill or not, I hope this woman is sterilized if not put to death.
I hope she gets what she deserves!!!

[coyoger]

Well Texas is a big state. But how many stories there are about child killings have been mentioned at all? How many in other states have not heard of? (In national news) it's all propaganda anyway. Some agenda against someone, somewhere.

[Celtic Solstice]

I think that it was pretty probable that there would be a "God wants" logic involved at some point... 80% or more Americans identify themselves as Christian. Less than 5% are completely irreligious. So, given the influence religion has on our daily lives, it would be really strange to me if religion did not play a part in the logic of a person suffering mental illness. I doubt very much that it caused her mental illness however.

The one thing that concerns me is the growing number of religious sects (largely Christian - recall 80% statistic - this stats are going to increase this likelihood - but others as well) that direct followers NOT to seek medical care when needed. Such sects become a place where mental illness becomes deadly instead of manageable. We need to be aware of the need to see that a person in need gets care BEFORE a tragedy like this.

Well, I am getting off this thread. I hope that they help her other children, and that they can find some peace - most of all, that the rest of us give them that space. Damn - it must be hard to not only have this happen but have everyone gossiping about their family. The whole situation stinks!

Celtic Solstice


When this story broke, I worried that it would be another one where the mother thought it was "what God wants", and sadly, it was. Now someone writing for a newspaper has noticed the same thing.


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1994&dept_id=339096&newsid=13548481&PAG=461&rfi=9


I don't think "religion" per se is to blame. I think instead that any religion (or even ideology) that controls one's life (and especially their information sources) is partly to blame.

These happen both in Christian religions (like the mass suicide of over 900 Christians at Jonestown) and in non-Christian religions (like the Heaven's Gate deaths a few years ago - I think Heaven's Gate was kinda New - Agey, right?).

Just like alcohol, I think controlled use can be good, and that it shouldn't be banned, yet, each of us must monitor ourselves to prevent the harm that can occur. Thoughts? :whatgives

Take care-

[ravenmyst]

An absolutely horrible thing, as a clinically depressed parent, I can not imagine being so bad as to harm my kids, they are my reason to DO something, fix my messed up head by whatever means, I do think fundamentalist thinking draws people who are spinning out of control tocommit their problems to "God", not medical means. I personally think she should be sterilized regardless, and my mothers instincts want her to pay despite the reasoning. not that that is the answer, just my rage speaking, excuse me while I go puke in disgust of it all!

[equinox2]

Hi All-

My sweetie wrote:

The one thing that concerns me is the growing number of religious sects (largely Christian - recall 80% statistic - this stats are going to increase this likelihood - but others as well) that direct followers NOT to seek medical care when needed. Such sects become a place where mental illness becomes deadly instead of manageable. We need to be aware of the need to see that a person in need gets care BEFORE a tragedy like this.

I agree. This is much of what I meant when I wrote:

I don't think "religion" per se is to blame. I think instead that any religion (or even ideology) that controls one's life (and especially their information sources) is partly to blame.

In addition to the 80% statistice Celtic Solstic mentioned, there are some specific verses in the Bible that can be used to exacerbate this. Ones like:

Mt 21:21:

Jesus replied, ... If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

or

Mk 16:17

(Jesus said) ...these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

In fact, Celtic Solstice and I know someone who’s mental illness was made much worse by being in a church that didn’t help her get medical care. They told her that the voices she was hearing were from Jesus and from the devil/demons as well as to pray to fix the problem, and it took years of therapy just to undue the damage that had been caused by thinking that for years. This was in a large denomination too, with thousands of churches nationwide, not some little church. I won’t mention the denomination so as to keep her identity safe.

Thankfully, most Christian churches aren't dangerous that way, and many don't require a literally reading of the Bible.

Take care-

[9-2-2]

Uh... I'm used to a lot of crazy and gory things, but this, wow... this actually made my stomach twitch. :twitch:

[BabblingImp]

Sad and sick. I think they should have a class on perenting in High school or even before than, to find out the ones that are a bit crazy, and I think the women should get help. :help: thats my 2cents worth

[ravenmyst]

This is not leaving my head till I say these staements. I am 36, which is a sheer miracle. I was a failed abortion, supposed to be a boy, my birth father randomly tried to remove me from this place for 5 years, when he wasnt giving me to friends for their entertainment, or punishing me for existing, I have seen friends die before my eyes, I have been diagnosed with just about every mental disorder, I still exist. Facts, not sympathy cries. Stating that, I have two teens, I can not see how if this woman got treatment to make her sane again would be a good thing, how then is she to go on knowing what she did? How can she shed responsibility, regardless of the cause, if I was to go down that road I would hope someone would do the humane thing and put me out of my misery. That stated, I am capable regardless of all before stated to see beauty in the world, and I feel so much pain for all involved in that horrible situation, and hope someone can really help the remaining children deal with it all. back to my woods I must go

[Mab]

Just a quick note after scanning the posts on Christian churches instructing their followers not to seek medical assistance when necessary:

The churches that suggest this may be mostly Christian, but that doesn't mean most Christian churches condone this. As a matter of fact, I can only think of one Christian sect that does actually teach its followers that medical science is bad & if God wants them to get better they will--Christian Scientists.

Please don't smack an entire religion with the blame.

thanks.