Thelema/Satanism??

[badkitty]

I just read a bit on Thelema and it seems to be similar to satanism, or perhaps I just think this because of the Crowly connection and emphasis on freedom with personal responsibility. Can someone explain some of the differences to me (without yelling if they are offended or find this a dumb question)?

[Rain Gnosis]

Well, Crowley created Thelema based on communications he received through automatic writing from a being called Aiwass. Anton LaVey is considered the father of LaVeyan* Satanism, having based it on his beliefs as far as I know?

The main tenets of Thelema include "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Every man and every woman is a star". This is the idea that one's will is the natural way of the higher self (as opposed to momentary whims), and that following this natural way will allow everyone to do as they will while not impeding everyone else's ability to do the same. Crowley believes that "the wise application based on observation and experience of the Law of Thelema is to work in conscious harmony with Evolution". Further, "Love is the law, love under will" - by following one's will truly, and not impeding the will of others, we are creating and maintaining love.

LaVeyan Satanism is based on indulgence, wisdom, rational self interest, and a perseverence toward success and human potential. It is against stupidity, self-deceit, herd conformity, etc. Finally, it advocates vengeance against those who deserve it, punishing sins such as stupidity and herd conformity, and destroying those who bother you.

Thelema, therefore, is very much focused on the evolution of the self and of the whole, along with love. Satanism, in contrast, is focused on evolution of the self, without regard to the whole, and needn't require love (although love is not forbidden either). The Thelemite follows their higher self's will while aiding others in doing the same - the Satanist indulges in whims and sins even if it requires on stepping on other people.

They seem very different to me, though perhaps I'm missing something?

* I only know LaVeyan Satanism. Those who study other forms are more than welcome to share too of course.

[DamienDeville]

Im not to familar with Thelma but Rain gave a good explanation of it.
But I must supply these links to other types of Satanism,because not all Satanist are LeVeyan Satanist.Hope these are of some help.
http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=76305
http://www.theistic-satanism.org/CoAz/index.html

[Rain Gnosis]

Well Damien, why not go ahead and describe the core beliefs of theistic Satanism and how it compares to my description of Thelema?

I'm very interested to know :)

[Shatril]

I have never studied Satanism, and the explanation given here gives me no reason to want to. However, I have studied some of Crowley's stuff and Bad Kitty, you really need to continue the exploration as what I have studied so far is about Archeangels and Qabalistic, and Hermetic beliefs. Thelema is just part of what Crowley was about really.

I guess it all depends on how you interpret the Goetiac studies, of summoning deamons. That may interpret in some minds to "Satanism", which I don't think is correct.

Before anyone starts jumping in my stuff, I will make this disclaimer. I'm very NEW to this, and have not gotten much studying done. So give me a break. OK? I know I know nothing.

Shatril

[DamienDeville]

Well Damien, why not go ahead and describe the core beliefs of theistic Satanism and how it compares to my description of Thelema?

I'm very interested to know :)
I cant because like I said I dont know what Thelema is accept what you just wrought above.But any one can read the threads which I have a link to in my signature to see what I believe and what Traditional/Theistic Satanist believe on many different things.
I personally dont accept Leveys theories concerning elitism and ego worship.I do believe people should strive to be the best that they can and to excel in life as much as they can,I also believe that human nature is not evil but is what it is.
And not all Theistic Satanists advocates vengeance against those who deserve it, punishing sins such as stupidity and herd conformity, and destroying those who bother you.
I for one do not.

Sorry if I couldnt help out more than that.

[Rain Gnosis]

And not all Theistic Satanists advocates vengeance against those who deserve it, punishing sins such as stupidity and herd conformity, and destroying those who bother you.

Ah, I'm not assuming any theistic Satanist does, since I was referring to atheistic LaVeyan Satanism...? I don't know anything about theistic Satanism, which is why I'm hoping someone who does such as yourself will post some of the basic principles. Certainly there is no info here at MW about it, so I'm hoping now that we have theistic Satanists here you will be so kind as to share some of that knowledge.

I have signatures turned off, so I do not see any link :)

And his name is LaVey. :) :) :)

[DamienDeville]

Ah, I'm not assuming any theistic Satanist does, since I was referring to atheistic LaVeyan Satanism...? I don't know anything about theistic Satanism, which is why I'm hoping someone who does such as yourself will post some of the basic principles. Certainly there is no info here at MW about it, so I'm hoping now that we have theistic Satanists here you will be so kind as to share some of that knowledge.

I have signatures turned off, so I do not see any link :)

And his name is LaVey. :) :) :)
LaVey sorrrry!
Here are some links and you can read about my beliefs here http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=76048

http://www.theistic-satanism.org/bgoat/traditional.html
http://www.theistic-satanism.org/bgoat/theistic.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/Muse/XianSatanEvil.html#TS
http://www.theistic-satanism.org/varieties/index.html
http://www.theistic-satanism.org/varieties/FAQ-TS.html

[Rain Gnosis]

Ah, didn't see that thread since it's in New Pagans (I don't go in there much :))

Ok, so the short list I gather from the links and your posts in the thread is
Theistic Satanists generally;

worship/recognize a form of the divine known as Satan, either as an individual deity or as an abstract duotheistic form
focus on the freedom of individuality and self-knowledge, and on integrity
recognize rebellion against Christianity as a worthwhile part of their beliefs
are characterized by "devotion to Lord Satan symbolized by The Beast, and devotion to members of your pack"

[DamienDeville]

Ah, didn't see that thread since it's in New Pagans (I don't go in there much :))

Ok, so the short list I gather from the links and your posts in the thread is
Theistic Satanists generally;

worship/recognize a form of the divine known as Satan, either as an individual deity or as an abstract duotheistic form
focus on the freedom of individuality and self-knowledge, and on integrity
recognize rebellion against Christianity as a worthwhile part of their beliefs
are characterized by "devotion to Lord Satan symbolized by The Beast, and devotion to members of your pack"

Basically yes thats correct,but in my case I see rebellion to Christianity as accepting human nature as it is.But with emphasis on self control.And I dont throw in all the Devil/Versus Christ and I dont accept any Christian diffenition of Satan,Satanism,etc.So I dont accept the view of the fall of man or satan but some Satanist do but with a different view.I reject all Abrahamic views of Satan/Satanism etc whether they have been adopted by other satanist or not.
I believe in a primal force(not a deity) and from it comes the Master(god--the god that made humans the way we are and doesnt condemn us) and the Mother(goddess--the co creator) and all other deities(daemons).I use modern termonology to give names to them hence Satan(Because satan symbolises human nature) and Lilith(because she represents to me the great mother- co creator and equality of the sexes).

[DebLipp]

Here are some key points:

Thelema is a magical and philosophical system, not a religion per se.
Crowley's Thelema embraces a belief in otherworldly beings, astral travel, Gods, Angels, etc.
Thelema maintains a goal of Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel
Thelema maintains the use of many Golden Dawn ritual forms, including the LBRP
Thelema embraces The Book of the Law as a holy document
Thelema uses a multiplicity of magical and spiritual systems, including Kabbalah and Yoga


There are different forms of Satanism, but most of the above doesn't apply to any of them.

[sidhe]

Thelema and Satanism get confused frequently due to Crowley's use of names such as "The Great Beast", etc. The are not, however, as has been covered earlier in this thread, the same.