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badkitty
November 26th, 2004, 06:33 PM
I just read a bit on Thelema and it seems to be similar to satanism, or perhaps I just think this because of the Crowly connection and emphasis on freedom with personal responsibility. Can someone explain some of the differences to me (without yelling if they are offended or find this a dumb question)?

Rain Gnosis
November 26th, 2004, 06:57 PM
Well, Crowley created Thelema based on communications he received through automatic writing from a being called Aiwass. Anton LaVey is considered the father of LaVeyan* Satanism, having based it on his beliefs as far as I know?

The main tenets of Thelema include "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Every man and every woman is a star". This is the idea that one's will is the natural way of the higher self (as opposed to momentary whims), and that following this natural way will allow everyone to do as they will while not impeding everyone else's ability to do the same. Crowley believes that "the wise application based on observation and experience of the Law of Thelema is to work in conscious harmony with Evolution". Further, "Love is the law, love under will" - by following one's will truly, and not impeding the will of others, we are creating and maintaining love.

LaVeyan Satanism is based on indulgence, wisdom, rational self interest, and a perseverence toward success and human potential. It is against stupidity, self-deceit, herd conformity, etc. Finally, it advocates vengeance against those who deserve it, punishing sins such as stupidity and herd conformity, and destroying those who bother you.

Thelema, therefore, is very much focused on the evolution of the self and of the whole, along with love. Satanism, in contrast, is focused on evolution of the self, without regard to the whole, and needn't require love (although love is not forbidden either). The Thelemite follows their higher self's will while aiding others in doing the same - the Satanist indulges in whims and sins even if it requires on stepping on other people.

They seem very different to me, though perhaps I'm missing something?

* I only know LaVeyan Satanism. Those who study other forms are more than welcome to share too of course.

DamienDeville
November 27th, 2004, 01:00 PM
Im not to familar with Thelma but Rain gave a good explanation of it.
But I must supply these links to other types of Satanism,because not all Satanist are LeVeyan Satanist.Hope these are of some help.
http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=76305
http://www.theistic-satanism.org/CoAz/index.html

Rain Gnosis
November 27th, 2004, 01:12 PM
Well Damien, why not go ahead and describe the core beliefs of theistic Satanism and how it compares to my description of Thelema?

I'm very interested to know :)

Shatril
November 27th, 2004, 01:45 PM
I have never studied Satanism, and the explanation given here gives me no reason to want to. However, I have studied some of Crowley's stuff and Bad Kitty, you really need to continue the exploration as what I have studied so far is about Archeangels and Qabalistic, and Hermetic beliefs. Thelema is just part of what Crowley was about really.

I guess it all depends on how you interpret the Goetiac studies, of summoning deamons. That may interpret in some minds to "Satanism", which I don't think is correct.

Before anyone starts jumping in my stuff, I will make this disclaimer. I'm very NEW to this, and have not gotten much studying done. So give me a break. OK? I know I know nothing.

Shatril

DamienDeville
November 27th, 2004, 05:34 PM
Well Damien, why not go ahead and describe the core beliefs of theistic Satanism and how it compares to my description of Thelema?

I'm very interested to know :)
I cant because like I said I dont know what Thelema is accept what you just wrought above.But any one can read the threads which I have a link to in my signature to see what I believe and what Traditional/Theistic Satanist believe on many different things.
I personally dont accept Leveys theories concerning elitism and ego worship.I do believe people should strive to be the best that they can and to excel in life as much as they can,I also believe that human nature is not evil but is what it is.
And not all Theistic Satanists advocates vengeance against those who deserve it, punishing sins such as stupidity and herd conformity, and destroying those who bother you.
I for one do not.

Sorry if I couldnt help out more than that.

Rain Gnosis
November 28th, 2004, 03:39 PM
And not all Theistic Satanists advocates vengeance against those who deserve it, punishing sins such as stupidity and herd conformity, and destroying those who bother you.

Ah, I'm not assuming any theistic Satanist does, since I was referring to atheistic LaVeyan Satanism...? I don't know anything about theistic Satanism, which is why I'm hoping someone who does such as yourself will post some of the basic principles. Certainly there is no info here at MW about it, so I'm hoping now that we have theistic Satanists here you will be so kind as to share some of that knowledge.

I have signatures turned off, so I do not see any link :)

And his name is LaVey. :) :) :)

DamienDeville
November 28th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Ah, I'm not assuming any theistic Satanist does, since I was referring to atheistic LaVeyan Satanism...? I don't know anything about theistic Satanism, which is why I'm hoping someone who does such as yourself will post some of the basic principles. Certainly there is no info here at MW about it, so I'm hoping now that we have theistic Satanists here you will be so kind as to share some of that knowledge.

I have signatures turned off, so I do not see any link :)

And his name is LaVey. :) :) :)
LaVey sorrrry!
Here are some links and you can read about my beliefs here http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=76048

http://www.theistic-satanism.org/bgoat/traditional.html
http://www.theistic-satanism.org/bgoat/theistic.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/Muse/XianSatanEvil.html#TS
http://www.theistic-satanism.org/varieties/index.html
http://www.theistic-satanism.org/varieties/FAQ-TS.html

Rain Gnosis
November 28th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Ah, didn't see that thread since it's in New Pagans (I don't go in there much :))

Ok, so the short list I gather from the links and your posts in the thread is
Theistic Satanists generally;

worship/recognize a form of the divine known as Satan, either as an individual deity or as an abstract duotheistic form
focus on the freedom of individuality and self-knowledge, and on integrity
recognize rebellion against Christianity as a worthwhile part of their beliefs
are characterized by "devotion to Lord Satan symbolized by The Beast, and devotion to members of your pack"

DamienDeville
November 29th, 2004, 11:23 AM
Ah, didn't see that thread since it's in New Pagans (I don't go in there much :))

Ok, so the short list I gather from the links and your posts in the thread is
Theistic Satanists generally;

worship/recognize a form of the divine known as Satan, either as an individual deity or as an abstract duotheistic form
focus on the freedom of individuality and self-knowledge, and on integrity
recognize rebellion against Christianity as a worthwhile part of their beliefs
are characterized by "devotion to Lord Satan symbolized by The Beast, and devotion to members of your pack"

Basically yes thats correct,but in my case I see rebellion to Christianity as accepting human nature as it is.But with emphasis on self control.And I dont throw in all the Devil/Versus Christ and I dont accept any Christian diffenition of Satan,Satanism,etc.So I dont accept the view of the fall of man or satan but some Satanist do but with a different view.I reject all Abrahamic views of Satan/Satanism etc whether they have been adopted by other satanist or not.
I believe in a primal force(not a deity) and from it comes the Master(god--the god that made humans the way we are and doesnt condemn us) and the Mother(goddess--the co creator) and all other deities(daemons).I use modern termonology to give names to them hence Satan(Because satan symbolises human nature) and Lilith(because she represents to me the great mother- co creator and equality of the sexes).

DebLipp
November 29th, 2004, 01:02 PM
Here are some key points:

Thelema is a magical and philosophical system, not a religion per se.
Crowley's Thelema embraces a belief in otherworldly beings, astral travel, Gods, Angels, etc.
Thelema maintains a goal of Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel
Thelema maintains the use of many Golden Dawn ritual forms, including the LBRP
Thelema embraces The Book of the Law as a holy document
Thelema uses a multiplicity of magical and spiritual systems, including Kabbalah and Yoga


There are different forms of Satanism, but most of the above doesn't apply to any of them.

sidhe
December 27th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Thelema and Satanism get confused frequently due to Crowley's use of names such as "The Great Beast", etc. The are not, however, as has been covered earlier in this thread, the same.

Humming Bird
October 5th, 2015, 02:36 AM
I just read a bit on Thelema and it seems to be similar to satanism, or perhaps I just think this because of the Crowly connection and emphasis on freedom with personal responsibility. Can someone explain some of the differences to me (without yelling if they are offended or find this a dumb question)?

Thelemites and Satanists tend to get along pretty well. They have their different aims and philosophical frame however they share certain values regarding how they interact with others.
Thelemites believe you have a right to be you, who you really are and that no one has the right to deny you this nor can they choose your path for you. This is such a core ethos of Thelema, that in Liber Oz (The Thelemic bill of rights) you are permitted to kill those who would deny these rights. A Satanist, would have a similar attitude if you tried to oppress them, however instead of trying to find ones true will, and course of their life which is the harmony between their aspirations and natures, a Satanist would rather just indulge in their base natures and inclination in a way that grants them the greatest means of doing so while still being able to function. Both value the experience, however Thelemites tend to be more philosophical and existential while Satanists tend to focus on the practical human animal. in this regard, Thelema is closer to Luciferianism than Satanism. Both Thelemites and Satanists are pretty live and let live, meaning that if you are just doing your business they don't care but if you make it their business, they care a great deal because now you are putting the consequences of your actions upon them. Some Satanists strongly stand up for others who are being forced to live a certain way while others are more concerned with looking out for themselves. Thelemites, like Luciferians tend to acknowledge that a threat to liberty to one, is a threat to all within that given paradigm and so they are much more likely to be advocates... in their own way of course. Even then though, tough love is recognized as crucial and you have to be willing to meet them if they are to help you. They'll tell you to stop being a victim, but they'll do it by helping rise above that pattern.

Thelemites bite the apple to know what gnosis is.
Satanists bite the apple because it is pleasurable to bite the apple.
Neither denies their yearning here,
The Thelemite is more likely to share,
The Satanist will share if you're cool enough
but both will shoot you if you try to take their apple from them.

I know Thelemites who have incorporated Satanism into their praxis, though...
again... they are actually more Luciferian than Satanist.


I have never studied Satanism, and the explanation given here gives me no reason to want to. However, I have studied some of Crowley's stuff and Bad Kitty, you really need to continue the exploration as what I have studied so far is about Archeangels and Qabalistic, and Hermetic beliefs. Thelema is just part of what Crowley was about really.

I guess it all depends on how you interpret the Goetiac studies, of summoning deamons. That may interpret in some minds to "Satanism", which I don't think is correct.

Before anyone starts jumping in my stuff, I will make this disclaimer. I'm very NEW to this, and have not gotten much studying done. So give me a break. OK? I know I know nothing.

Shatril

Satanists aren't jerks, they just don't tend to see any valid argument for absolute morals or why they should put others before themselves.
In fact, LaVeys Church of Satan prevents its members from cruelty to animals and children.
That's a complete excommunication.
While they wont make a case for morality, they don't care to pick on those weaker than themselves, that's not considered cool and-
in the case of animals and children they are esteemed because they are simply themselves, free and (hopefully) un-indoctrinated.
They may not make a case for morals but will point out the harm forcing someone to think and do as you do.

I mean, I like them.

Cassie
October 5th, 2015, 11:50 AM
I can't comment on Thelema except to say it interests me and perhaps I will learn more about it and incorporate anything within it which makes sense to me and compliments my Satanic beliefs.
I think most of what has been said about Satanism here is roughly correct although some writers like Shatril can't seem to avoid a rather negative and judgemental assessment.
One of the problems for any non Satanist trying to get an idea of it from outside so to speak, is that there is no form of Satanic orthodoxy. Even within the various strands of Satanism you are unlikely to find any two people who agree on everything. We tend to be fiercely individualistic in everything including our personal interpretations of what Satanism is.
Personally I am a Theistic Satanist meaning that I believe there is an actual entity of some kind referred to as Satan which can be connected with. Personally I don't believe Satan to be a God in the normal sense of the word which needs to be worshipped, more an energy to connect with. Having been a Pagan for a long time I also see elements of Satan reflected in many male deities (and some female ones).
At the same time my philosophy is closely based on LaVeyan Satanism despite not being strictly an atheist.

Some previous posts may have suggested that the hedonism most Satanists partake in is rather skin deep and lacks much spiritual significance. That may be true for some but many of us actually feel that spiritual growth can spring from indulgence.
Another previous post seemed to imply that vengeance is a key tenant of Satanism. In fact while we certainly do believe in the right to take vengeance, I wouldn't describe it as a key tennent... It is one of many, up there and equal with protecting and respecting children and animals.

Humming Bird
October 5th, 2015, 01:44 PM
I can't comment on Thelema except to say it interests me and perhaps I will learn more about it and incorporate anything within it which makes sense to me and compliments my Satanic beliefs.
I think most of what has been said about Satanism here is roughly correct although some writers like Shatril can't seem to avoid a rather negative and judgemental assessment.
One of the problems for any non Satanist trying to get an idea of it from outside so to speak, is that there is no form of Satanic orthodoxy. Even within the various strands of Satanism you are unlikely to find any two people who agree on everything. We tend to be fiercely individualistic in everything including our personal interpretations of what Satanism is.
Personally I am a Theistic Satanist meaning that I believe there is an actual entity of some kind referred to as Satan which can be connected with. Personally I don't believe Satan to be a God in the normal sense of the word which needs to be worshipped, more an energy to connect with. Having been a Pagan for a long time I also see elements of Satan reflected in many male deities (and some female ones).
At the same time my philosophy is closely based on LaVeyan Satanism despite not being strictly an atheist.

Some previous posts may have suggested that the hedonism most Satanists partake in is rather skin deep and lacks much spiritual significance. That may be true for some but many of us actually feel that spiritual growth can spring from indulgence.
Another previous post seemed to imply that vengeance is a key tenant of Satanism. In fact while we certainly do believe in the right to take vengeance, I wouldn't describe it as a key tennent... It is one of many, up there and equal with protecting and respecting children and animals.

That is a very good point, just because there may be less emphasis on mysticism, and more ethereal experiences as opposed to experience of the flesh and being human animal doesn't own isn't philosophical, contemplative or lacking a spiritual dimension to them, though the root 'spirit' of that might need a citation regarding what they mean by that. understanding and cultivating a healthy and unhindered expression of the human animal is no easy feat. it shouldn't be assumed Satanists don't have discipline or don't work hard just because they have fewer inhibitions and taboos than most. it takes a lot of psychological struggle to get past the masks and coping mechanisms we internalize from an early age that don't serve human nature. I do think many are too quick to judge Satanists as egotistic and stuck in maya/illusion, however the ego has its purpose. there is certainly truth in Satanism being egotistic, however it isn't the issue it for those of paths that look down on the ego so much, instead Satanism tends to except it for what it is and that right there part of being enlightened. The ego then, becomes a proper vessel and vehicle for understanding life in a very real, raw and visceral way- a way in which many do not see because they are hung up on their moral and otherwise ingrained perceptions. one can say all they want that being egotistic is being stuck in illusion but you know what, what does this say for those who can't see the ego for what it is... are they not stuck in an illusion of an illusion? They think they are ahead but are they really?

It's like the Ego is an onion, Satanists still have the onion core in this comparison but it is as if they've taken the time to peal off the superficial layers. so it isn't really fair to say say they are superficial or shallow, they've just gotten it down to what they really want and need instead taking on all the layers of societal cushioning. Like you know, who you were in kindergarten before you had to protect yourself from your friends leaving because your mom shopped at goodwill...

Because so many people will put a Satanist down, point their finger at them saying they are hedonistic will do whatever with whoever, but the satanist isn't usually the one struggling with homosexual desires, or fetishes or liking things outside of the norm for their sex, and these examples are sexual because our perception of sex is so tied into our processing of identity... but it could be anything one would be self-conscious about simply because of the cultural notion that whatever it is, is something to be ashamed of.

A great thing about Satanism is that you don't need coping mechanisms to cope with or justify what you like, you just be you. when you don't need those coping mechanism to deal with who you are in the here and now, the ego is this monster forcing you to live an unexamined life, very much the opposite here.

So what if they aren't ascending the tree of life or worrying about how and why they exist in a state that allows for a tangible existence, or whatever that means, that doesn't mean there's no gnosis or enlightenment there, it is just another form of it. Like the yogi who comes back down to bake the rest of their seeds. some people are just more interested in getting them baked and understanding the human condition before moving on to some other existential mess of reality. :p that's not the life they are in right now, it's not practical to understanding who they are as a flesh and blood being and wont serve those flesh in blood needs... which isn't just sex or needing a tube of ice cream right now, it's the whole shebang of of being human and of interpersonal reactions... there's certain enough within that to get deep.

and of course you are a unicorn of sorts right because you are a theistic Satanists, which changes things a bit, because you aren't way over on the atheist / purely empirical side of the spectrum?