Family traditionalist...?

[Celtic Solstice]

I've just recently started spending more time here on the board, and I've noticed a number of terms being tossed around that seem to have variable meaning depending on the person. So I thought it might be interesting to get some feedback as to how we each view them.

Witch - I've seen this from "person who practices Wicca" to "person who has inherited ESP" to "person who practices pagan traditions" etc...

Solitary - generally "person not associated with a coven" - would a person of a pagan tradition that does not think in terms of witches still be a solitary if there is no coven as part of their practice...?

Family traditionalist - "coherent family religion that is passed down as such" or "pagan traditions that have been passed down mostly as just tradition regardless of religious identity of family"

Other words?

Celtic Solstice

[misschief]

a witch isn't a wiccan. well, it is in some cases.. but every witch isn't wiccan. a witch is a skilled practitioner of magic, not necessarily associated with any religion.

solitary is just as it sounds.. alone

family trad. is also just as it sounds... a family tradition...

what other words are you looking for?

[ravynbynorthwynd]

a witch is someone who manipulates energy, or someone who practices magic.
a solitary is someone who is alone due to: 1) by choice 2) because there is no one who believes the same as they do in the region or at all.

[mucgwyrt]

imo "person who has inherited ESP" isn't a witch because of that; it was probably intended as an insult, or because he/she actually practises magic as well.

[Celtic Solstice]

imo "person who has inherited ESP" isn't a witch because of that; it was probably intended as an insult, or because he/she actually practises magic as well.

Where I have seen it, it was not intended as an insult. It was the idea that some people are born witches as in have special gifts similar to telepathy, precognition, etc. In some cases, ESP might be considered supernatural and in other cases it might be considered simply an extension of senses that we all consider normal. For instance, most of us can look at a person and tell something about another person's emotional state, but there are some folks like those with certain forms of Aspergers that cannot tell anything about a person's emotions based on anything other than a person's words - they don't see the visual signals others do. And, there are others who are sensitive to every flicker of emotion on another's face and body, to whom it would be virtually impossible to lie.

The same would go with precognition - we all can predict a little of the future - I mean, if you hit someone, chances are fairly good that the person is not going to like it. Some people are really good at looking at indicators and determining the future weather, economics, etc...

So, take this all a step further into the subconscious - where the person does not consciously put it together, but does it subconsciously - perhaps as they sleep in dreams - there is nothing supernatural or wishy washy about this, but it would feel and appear very much like what we call ESP.

A lot of this is something people are simply born with but some is learned. A person with heightened skill in this could be labeled with ESP or in the sense I had seen it as a person who is a "born witch."

(On the other hand, there are people who believe in literal ESP and that the skill is inherited, and that such gifts are inherited... etc.)

Basically, it comes down to a question of the meaning of "witch" - does it mean someone with special abilities or someone who practices a religion or the mastery of magical abilities? I don't think it was intended as an insult, and I certainly did not intend it as such in including it in my list. I can understand your concern though because "witch" is often used in an insulting manner because it is associated with evil by general society. Hopefully, this assures you.

Celtic Solstice

[Celtic Solstice]

a witch isn't a wiccan. well, it is in some cases.. but every witch isn't wiccan. a witch is a skilled practitioner of magic, not necessarily associated with any religion.

Does it have to be taught or intentionally practiced? That is, could you have a person who just instinctively does what a skilled practicioner does - and would they be called a witch or something else?

Hm. I know all witches are not Wiccan, but I've had a lot of people treat it as such - mostly elsewhere not here... a person calls themselves a witch and they jump into all kinds of stuff about Wicca (this happens both with pagans and non-pagans - For instance, I had a friend who was Wiccan, and she equated witch with wicca. I think she was new to Wicca at the time, and might not have realized that all witches are not Wicca, but she basically considered all comments relating to witches to be a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of Wicca - mind you, not all the points of disagreement were negative ones - they were just "incorrect." She felt that the word "witch" was a corruption of the word "wicca." I was curious how common this sentiment is.

solitary is just as it sounds.. alone

Does it mean that if you are pagan and don't know anyone else who is pagan but don't consider yourself a "witch" because your particular pagan beliefs do not include this... you would be a "solitary"? What about a person who is not pagan? For instance, a Christian who has eclectic beliefs that are not shared by others around him or her...

family trad. is also just as it sounds... a family tradition...

This is one that I would really love expansion on. Many of us probably have family traditions that are pagan in origin. Think of how many put up Christmas/Solstice trees. I have a lot of traditions that have been passed down by my family that are pagan, but my parents are Christian; my grandmother was an Episcopal nun; her mother was the daughter of a minister. My parents are aware of the pagan nature of things but I think my grandparents would have had a fit if you suggested it to them.

What I was curious about is "family traditionalist" as in a coherent practice. I think you have mentioned this yourself. A lot of people go on and on about such things not existing. My question is do they? how do you know when it is real and when it is someone wanting you to buy into a lot of poppycock? etc. What is it like being part of such a tradition? Do you have a sense of a lot having been lost or is it all there, even if it has evolved?

what other words are you looking for?

Well - wicca would probably be a good one. There is of course "Wicca" by which I mean the formal religion outlined by Gardner, but Wiccans (such as my friend) often describe "wicca" as the true basis for the word "witch" - is there any basis for this? where does this idea come from (if not Gardner)?

Coven - I participate in a campus pagan group, very loosely - my husband was a professor at the college in question. They perform circle ceremonies on occasion. Would that make us a coven? (My opinion would be no because we are very eclectic and it is not a single tradition, and I rather feel like a coven is a more formal term). If it is not a coven, does that make us a bunch of solitaries getting together...

Energy
Magick
...

Celtic Solstice

PS: I have some opinions of some of these, but I am trying to keep it open because I am more interested in a general sense. I mean, you can get descriptions in books but that does not tell you what people really believe or how prevalent a particular opinion is... you know?

[misschief]

well.. i don't have lots of time right now.. but i'll address the family trad. issue. i am from a strong and long lived family trad., so i can tell you they ARE real. for me i know it isn't 'poppycock'.. (lol, funny word), and i know the real trad. of my family because i have a few hundred years worth of books. i guess it could be book of shadows... but my family always just called them witching words. it's great to be a part of such a tradition, it's something i can really feel in me, if that makes sense. i am alone in mine, but it's only because i'm the only one in this generation to practice... or at least the only one i know of. it's something i've done since i was a young child, so it seems perfectly normal to me *shrug*.

and i'll add, wicca is NOT the base of the word witch. wicca is a brand new religion.. and as a witch, i get quite offended when i'm referred to as wiccan, because, although i respect wiccans, and have great friends who are wiccan... it's not something i would ever even consider being. to me... wicca is made up and overall blah. (that's not meant to offend or pick at anyone... so please do not flame...) witch is a word that is very old and has had many different meanings, kind of like the pentagram. i saw you asking about esp and witch, are they related etc., in my experience they really are.. but that's not always the case. i've never met a real witch without some 'special' skills, that doesn't mean there are witches that don't have them either. but, it's more an issue of controlling your mind than it is being born with abilities. being born with abilities is really just being born with more than average control of your mind. any one of any religion can be their religion + a witch, witchcraft is not a religion, it's a way of life. there are no diety associated with witchcraft directly, only those that one chooses to worship, if any. i've got to go, but i'd be happy to talk to you in more depth sometime. :)

[cheddarsox]

Basically, it comes down to a question of the meaning of "witch" - does it mean someone with special abilities or someone who practices a religion or the mastery of magical abilities? I don't think it was intended as an insult, and I certainly did not intend it as such in including it in my list. I can understand your concern though because "witch" is often used in an insulting manner because it is associated with evil by general society. Hopefully, this assures you.

Celtic Solstice

I do believe that some people are born knowing how to manipulate energy, but I would reserve the term witch for one who consciously practices it. Also, some people are probably woefully bad at manipulating energy, but are working at it, I'd still grant them the title witch. But I do think that one should be actively engaged in a thing to use the title.

Caveat...some folks who do practice energy work do not choose the term witch for themselves, I don't assign the title to anyone, I let them choose how to describe their themselves.

cheddar

[Phae Talon]

[snip..]

In some cases, ESP might be considered supernatural and in other cases it might be considered simply an extension of senses that we all consider normal. For instance, most of us can look at a person and tell something about another person's emotional state, but there are some folks like those with certain forms of Aspergers that cannot tell anything about a person's emotions based on anything other than a person's words - they don't see the visual signals others do. And, there are others who are sensitive to every flicker of emotion on another's face and body, to whom it would be virtually impossible to lie.

[snip...]

A lot of this is something people are simply born with but some is learned. A person with heightened skill in this could be labeled with ESP or in the sense I had seen it as a person who is a "born witch."

[snip...]


Well, I am gonna take a bash at this one. I couldn't say if there is such a thing as ESP or beyond the person not realizing what they are doing, but IME, as one of those people to whom it is almost impossible to lie, reading people is a learned skill. I know exactly what I am doing, and I have been doing it since I was a young child. I can even remember the very first time I did it. After years and years of practise, yes, it can freak people out, and even my fiancé thinks that at times I can read his mind. Plus side of this is that no one questions me when I tell them the character of someone we've all just met ;)

As for being born a witch ... I think that is no more likely that being born a pianist. You may have a gift that makes you more likely to become a musician, but without practise and study, nothing will come of it. IMO it is the same with witchcraft. You may be born with skills that (or the sensitivity to develop skills) that make your progress through learning witchcraft easier, but that doesn't make you more of or a better witch than someone who had to struggle the whole way (but had the determination to stick it out and learn even though it was harder).

And that is my two cents ... take it for what it is worth :fpeek:

--Phae