Taoism

[Morning Star]

Are there any Taoists around? or even people who draw some beliefs from Taoism? I'm curious because Taoism seems to draw closest to Nature, of any other system I've seen, insofar as the entire system appears to be The Way of Nature. The more I understand, the more beautiful it becomes. I've studied Taoism here and there for many years, but now that I really want to understand it fully, I'm beginning to suspect that I've a lot further to go than I had originally suspected.

[Rain Gnosis]

Yes. I'm sure you have read the Tao te Ching - how about the Hua hu Ching? Just reading these works fills me with peace and softness. One site you might enjoy is http://www.taoism.net/enter.htm

[Morning Star]

Yes, I have read the Tao te Ching, but Taoism has taken many twists and turns over the years. On my way to DC today I picked up 'The Complete Works of Lao Tzu: Tao Teh Ching & Hua Hu Ching' & 'The Shambhala Guide to Taoism' (which mainly focuses on Religious Taoism - very interesting stuff, but I'm now more confused than when I began). If there are any excellent books that anyone is aware of, please let me know. I hate not understanding something.

[Rain Gnosis]

Well look at this way, work with the Tao and learn it, rather then fighting the current of reality by hating what is natural (not knowing something till you learn!).

Woo that was my prophetic silly moment. Sorry :)

[Morning Star]

lol well said. :)

[Chidori]

Well look at this way, work with the Tao and learn it, rather then fighting the current of reality by hating what is natural (not knowing something till you learn!).

Woo that was my prophetic silly moment. Sorry :) Well put!!

[arctic splash]

I agree, struggling to understand Taoism is not the way to learn it. And yet... I suppose it is. Just follow the Tao. Or don't! It's all Tao anyway.

My spirituality is very close to taoism... however, I wouldn't exactly consider myself a taoist.

I love Alan Watts. :)

[Morning Star]

The Wisdom of Insecurity is one of my favorite books. Watts is a good man. A little thin on the philosophical side, but a unique perspective...and a needed one.

[bshore]

I was introduced to Taoism throught the novels of Ursula Le Guin. If you haven't read any of her works, you might check them out. I just ordered the Tao te Ching from Amazon the other day and can't wait to dive in over christmas break.

[arctic splash]

The Wisdom of Insecurity is one of my favorite books. Watts is a good man. A little thin on the philosophical side, but a unique perspective...and a needed one.

Quotable. Good from a literary perspective. That's what I like about him.

[Isa]

I was attracted to Paganism through my studies in Taoism so .... yes ^O^ Right now I'm studying Alchemical aspect of Taoism, it's really fascinating but not much in the way of quality literature (read translations) on the subject :/

[Loopaleigh]

Let me ask you all a question...What translations of Tao Teh Ching do you like the best? I have read Gia-Fu Feng and John C.H. Wu....anything just as good or better you would care to suggest?

I prefer to read books on Eastern thought that have been translated by someone who UNDERSTANDS eastern thought....not someone who is putting their own Western/Christianized spin on things. Does that make any sense? I like to understand things in the context and culture from which they were originaly meant.

I see this happen all the time, someone takes an eastern concept and it gets filtered though the lense of a Westerners experiences and the original meaning is very subtley changed.

The concept of Karma is a good example. Heck, for that matter, I guess the yin/yang symbol would be a good example to!

[healeri2]

I love the tao, a book I've read most recently in regards to taoism is The Tao of Inner Peace. I wouldn't say it's the best book, but there are some good reminders about nature and our connection to it here.

[Malcolm]

Taoism always reminded me of "the Force" from Star Wars.

The whole permiating everything but not a complete answer for anything...what is the sound of one hand clapping BS...I really like eastern spirituality but sometimes I think they were just making crap up to sound important...or get a free meal, either way. Y'know, just lying to make friends.

[fallingwater]

I went deeply into Tao and although it is for everyone today it was only for men when it started...very 'special' young spiritual men. Back then there were 2 ways a young man could go; a warrior or a monk; the former being 90 % or so. It's roots are patriarchal and involved only a very small part of the society. I prefer spiritual paths that included everyone from the beginning...not just the' special ones.' There is a lot of competion in Eastern paths about who is more advanced spiritually, who's on a higher level and closer to enlightenment. I found this more ego-invovling than ego erasing. Plus I'm not Asian and no matter how deep I got I could not fully connect.

[CleftOfLight]

I draw some of y beliefes fro Taoism.Also it puts a whole spin on Star Wars.
Use the force-Obi Wan Kenobi
Follow the way-Lao Tzu

[EternalMaiden]

I love Alan Watts
I'll check into him, it sounds like it could be good stuff.

I went deeply into Tao and although it is for everyone today it was only for men when it started...very 'special' young spiritual men. Back then there were 2 ways a young man could go; a warrior or a monk; the former being 90 % or so. It's roots are patriarchal and involved only a very small part of the society. I prefer spiritual paths that included everyone from the beginning...not just the' special ones.' There is a lot of competion in Eastern paths about who is more advanced spiritually, who's on a higher level and closer to enlightenment. I found this more ego-invovling than ego erasing. Plus I'm not Asian and no matter how deep I got I could not fully connect.
See, now -this- makes you Pagan. :P
I actually appreciate this, and agree, I think. Even though there are plenty of Buddhist women patrons, I can see the Tao-Te-Ching being wonderful translated by women, for women.

I like 'Overfulfillment', Verse 9:

Keep filling your bowl, and it will spill over.
Keep sharpening your knife, and it will blunt.
Keep hoarding your gold, and you will be robbed.
Keep seeking approval, and you will be chained.
The Great Integrity leads to actualization, never overfufillment.

[Agaliha]

I'm going to look into Taoism a little more that I have before. I read parts of the Tao-te-Ching and was quite suprised-- some great stuff in there.
Here is religioustolerance.org's summary: Taoism (http://www.religioustolerance.org/taoism.htm)

Here are various transltions of the Tao-te-Ching HERE (http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/ttc-list.htm) too.
And Yahoo's Taoism directory HERE (http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Religion_and_Spirituality/Faiths_and_Practices/Taoism/) with 23 plus links.
This place is cool too: http://www.taoteching.org/

[Cryptic]

I'm going to look into Taoism a little more that I have before. I read parts of the Tao-te-Ching and was quite suprised-- some great stuff in there.

What is Tao-te-Ching? Is this something related to Taoism, a branch of it, or some type of guide book?

I am interested in an earth/nature pagan path, but not sure which one yet. Thanks.

[Silvan]

Are there any Taoists around? or even people who draw some beliefs from Taoism? I'm curious because Taoism seems to draw closest to Nature, of any other system I've seen, insofar as the entire system appears to be The Way of NatureI'm a Taoist sympathizer with heavy Taoist influences, but I stopped shy of going full tilt after I read some bit about how you're supposed to train yourself to have retrograde ejaculations so you don't waste your spirit energy. Screw that.

That was really a turning point, now that I think back. I never did re-open that book after it became so abundantly obvious Taoism wasn't going to be such a good fit after all.

[Vincent Verthaine]

What is Tao-te-Ching? Is this something related to Taoism, a branch of it, or some type of guide book?

I am interested in an earth/nature pagan path, but not sure which one yet. Thanks.
The tao te ching is a book supposedly written by a imperial librarian/sage named Lao Tzu who was a contemporary of Kun Fu Tze (Confucius).
Legend has it that when he retired,he went toward the west and was stopped by a border guard at the Great Wall of China who refused to let him pass until he coomited to writing a sum of his wisdom.

The Tao Te Ching (loosely translated"the Book of the Way and it's Virtue") is imho one of the most beautiful books ever written.
Taoism heavily influences discordianism.

[Little Billy]

Taoism heavily influences discordianism.

Sez you. I never liked that "middle of the road" stuff, myself.

Too much is ALWAYS better than not enough.

[Shanti]

Lao Tzu is the founder of Taoism. The Tao Te Ching is the only thing he ever wrote.
Everything else written was done by other people and 'their' interpitation of what is meant in the Tao Te Chings messages.

Taoism is a totally free path open to each individuals interpetation of the Tao Te Ching.

There is only a middle way if thats what you interpet from the writtings.

There is no right or wrong, there is only your way that you feel is right.

Lao Tzu states in his writting that the Tao can not be taught, can not be explained. Each person must experience it for themselves.

IMO to be Taoist is to absorb the Tao Te Ching yourself and not to follow anyones writtings or teachings after that because they are interpeting it all from their perspective, not yours. Plus the "Tao that is spoken is not the true Tao. The Tao that is taught is not the true Tao!"...Lao Tzu words in the Tao Te Ching.

Read the Tao Te Ching. Its not religion, its a philosophy!

[Little Billy]

There is no right or wrong, there is only your way that you feel is right.


Ugh. That would excuse Hitler. Ugh, I say.

[Shanti]

Ugh. That would excuse Hitler. Ugh, I say.

Good or bad, right or wrong is only opinion! :)

[Little Billy]

Good or bad, right or wrong is only opinion! :)


Tell that to 6 million dead jews.


http://www.parascope.com/gallery/galleryitems/holocaust/holocaust42.jpg

"Just an opinion."

http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gifs/46199.gif

None of the children in this picture survived the camps. But the camps were only bad if that was your "opinion".

[Shanti]

That wasnt nessesary!
It was good for him! That was 'his' opinion!

[Little Billy]

That wasnt nessesary!
It was good for him! That was 'his' opinion!

1. What's wrong? Your philosophy should allow you to feel nothing when viewing those pictures, right? After all, the tragedy of their deaths is only a matter of "opinion".

2. Well...that certainly makes it all better, doesn't it? It was good enough for Hitler, so who are we to call him wrong?

Take a damn good look at the face of the kid in front, in the 2d pic. Then tell me that there isn't real, objective "wrong".

[Shanti]

For him he wasnt wrong. To the people he hurt he was wrong.
To the people that were affected by his actions he was wrong.
To the people that supported his actions, he was right.

When did I say my philosophy has numbed my feelings?
I also have my opinions for me.
As you have yours for you.
And Hitler had his for him.
To him, he was right, if he thought otherwise he wouldnt of done what he did!

[Little Billy]

For him he wasnt wrong. To the people he hurt he was wrong.
To the people that were affected by his actions he was wrong.
To the people that supported his actions, he was right.

When did I say my philosophy has numbed my feelings?
I also have my opinions for me.
As you have yours for you.
And Hitler had his for him.
To him, he was right, if he thought otherwise he wouldnt of done what he did!

It is this very thinking that allowed Auschwitz to happen in the first place.

[Shanti]

Its not thinking, its fact. Opinions are why we do what we do.
Wars are nothing but opinions.
Conflict is the result of opinions that are not shared.

[Little Billy]

Its not thinking, its fact. Opinions are why we do what we do.
Wars are nothing but opinions.
Conflict is the result of opinions that are not shared.

Nope. Conflict is the result of one monkey having what another monkey wants.

But 6,000,000 dead people is not necessarily a bad thing? I'll keep that in mind.

[Shanti]

Nope. Conflict is the result of one monkey having what another monkey wants.

But 6,000,000 dead people is not necessarily a bad thing? I'll keep that in mind.

What are you trying to do?
If thats your opinion, great, its yours.
I know its Hitlers opinion since thats a fact. He didnt hide his opinions as to what he thought was right or wrong.
If your trying to state my opinion, go somewhere else.
My opinions are for me and only if I want to share them are they for anyone to know!!
I havent shared mine on your obviously provocing thought line because it would serve no purpose to the fact that we all have opinions as to right and wrong in our own eyes. Oh and I do have opinions sometimes of no opinion!! Thats probably a hard one for you to swallow!
But dont assume my opinion on any issue I havent specifically stated one for.
I have my opinion, so what?
You have yours.
And Little Bo Peep has hers.
Theres no purpose or reason in hashing out opinion's exisitance.

[Little Billy]

What are you trying to do?
If thats your opinion, great, its yours.
I know its Hitlers opinion since thats a fact. He didnt hide his opinions as to what he thought was right or wrong.


I am perfectly aware that this was his stated opinion.

However, you stated that there is no right and wrong, only opinion.

I disagree. What Hitler did was wrong. He knew this. Why do you think he concealed the existence of the camps? For the same reason a murderer hides the body of his victim...because the murderer KNOWS that what he/she did was wrong, and that he/she will be punished for it.

[Lorrie]

Its not thinking, its fact. Opinions are why we do what we do.
Wars are nothing but opinions.
Conflict is the result of opinions that are not shared.
I enjoy the taoist philosophy, but if it is not understood, it won't make any sense! Every person has their own path to follow, no matter what kind of path it is, we can not judge because we don't know why someone has the path that they have to live out. This is between them and the powers that be, not for other people to interfere in, we each have our own path to follow and this is what we must concentrate on, not other people's business. We can only know and understand our own. We cannot understand how the Divine sees things or why things have to be the way they are, we can only do the best that we can do with our own life. You cannot know the intentions of the Divine, It is much too unknowable and not understandable for the human mind. I just don't know how else to explain it to make it understandable, it's not that we don't care that these things happen- it's just that it is not for us to know the why's of someone else!

[Shanti]

I enjoy the taoist philosophy, but if it is not understood, it won't make any sense! Every person has their own path to follow, no matter what kind of path it is, we can not judge because we don't know why someone has the path that they have to live out. This is between them and the powers that be, not for other people to interfere in, we each have our own path to follow and this is what we must concentrate on, not other people's business. We can only know and understand our own. We cannot understand how the Divine sees things or why things have to be the way they are, we can only do the best that we can do with our own life. You cannot know the intentions of the Divine, It is much too unknowable and not understandable for the human mind. I just don't know how else to explain it to make it understandable, it's not that we don't care that these things happen- it's just that it is not for us to know the why's of someone else!

Thank you for that gentle nudge!!! I cant poke your karma so I am saying thank you here.

[Little Billy]

I enjoy the taoist philosophy, but if it is not understood, it won't make any sense! Every person has their own path to follow, no matter what kind of path it is, we can not judge because we don't know why someone has the path that they have to live out. This is between them and the powers that be, not for other people to interfere in, we each have our own path to follow and this is what we must concentrate on, not other people's business. We can only know and understand our own. We cannot understand how the Divine sees things or why things have to be the way they are, we can only do the best that we can do with our own life. You cannot know the intentions of the Divine, It is much too unknowable and not understandable for the human mind. I just don't know how else to explain it to make it understandable, it's not that we don't care that these things happen- it's just that it is not for us to know the why's of someone else!


No offense, but that seems like a path designed to make you get run over by a mack truck or three.

[Lorrie]

and then you have ego, the enemy of all rational thought, with ego's buddy, projection.

[Lorrie]

No offense, but that seems like a path designed to make you get run over by a mack truck or three.
Yes, that could very well be!

[Lorrie]

The taoist philosophy IS very difficult for non taoists to understand, it is very difficult to tone down the ego and it's projection. When you get rid of projection, you see the world alot differently- but it is so difficult to do! Ego will fight tooth and nail for control, and that is where the problems are with people. No, I'm not perfect, and I am still working very hard to get control of the ego and projection thing in my life, but I can understand that when you look at life without the ego's influence, the world looks alot different.

[Little Billy]

The taoist philosophy IS very difficult for non taoists to understand, it is very difficult to tone down the ego and it's projection. When you get rid of projection, you see the world alot differently- but it is so difficult to do! Ego will fight tooth and nail for control, and that is where the problems are with people. No, I'm not perfect, and I am still working very hard to get control of the ego and projection thing in my life, but I can understand that when you look at life without the ego's influence, the world looks alot different.

Well, yeah, but what's the payoff? I mean, if I am to be expected to get walked all over, there had better be one hell of a tradeoff.

[Shanti]

The taoist philosophy IS very difficult for non taoists to understand, it is very difficult to tone down the ego and it's projection. When you get rid of projection, you see the world alot differently- but it is so difficult to do! Ego will fight tooth and nail for control, and that is where the problems are with people. No, I'm not perfect, and I am still working very hard to get control of the ego and projection thing in my life, but I can understand that when you look at life without the ego's influence, the world looks alot different.

So true!!
To me its almost as if ego is an entirely seperate person fighting for front row seats.
But when you can step back and let ego off to the side, the world seems so, well...ok.
Its not even easy to put in words. I cant even try. I can only know it feels as it should. And that feeling I cant find words for!

[Shanti]

Well, yeah, but what's the payoff? I mean, if I am to be expected to get walked all over, there had better be one hell of a tradeoff.
Thats ego. Theres no tradeoff. Just knowing, just being. Dont ask knowing what? Its not knowing a 'thing'. Its differant.
Words come short.

[Little Billy]

Thats ego. Theres no tradeoff. Just knowing, just being. Dont ask knowing what? Its not knowing a 'thing'. Its differant.
Words come short.

Gah! You can do the same thing by watching TV all day.

[Shanti]

Gah! You can do the same thing by watching TV all day. This is true. You can learn about yourself by watching tv. The meer act of it can teach many things, but you need to shut it off so you can learn something. The teaching may be in noise but...The answers are in the quiet.

[Little Billy]

This is true. You can learn about yourself by watching tv. The meer act of it can teach many things, but you need to shut it off so you can learn something. The teaching may be in noise but...The answers are in the quiet.


What answers? Now we're getting somewhere.

[Lorrie]

It's not actually getting walked on, the payout in my case, is to see the world without the ego distorting it, you see reality and finding out that it is nothing like what you thought it was! Ego and emotion can severely distort perception of reality. When you are able to see things as they really are, and understand what you can't because of emotion, you are better able to be a better person, you don't get emotionally involved, you feel, but you understand what is happening, it gives you peace of mind. You are able to view the universe as it is, not as your ego projects it to be. Am I making any sense? I know it probably all sounds crazy, it is just something that you have to learn about to understand it-which is much easier said than done, but once you understand it, and begin little by little to live it, it's awesome.

[Little Billy]

It's not actually getting walked on, the payout in my case, is to see the world without the ego distorting it, you see reality and finding out that it is nothing like what you thought it was! Ego and emotion can severely distort perception of reality. When you are able to see things as they really are, and understand what you can't because of emotion, you are better able to be a better person, you don't get emotionally involved, you feel, but you understand what is happening, it gives you peace of mind. You are able to view the universe as it is, not as your ego projects it to be. Am I making any sense? I know it probably all sounds crazy, it is just something that you have to learn about to understand it-which is much easier said than done, but once you understand it, and begin little by little to live it, it's awesome.

How do you know that you are seeing the universe correctly?

[Shanti]

What answers? Now we're getting somewhere. The answers to the questions you have for yourself.
I believe its in my sig. The answers to all your questions are inside you.
And the answers are only part of it.
To know is nothing, anyone can know things..to understand what you know is the part that takes some time.

Example. You know what love is...you can look it up in a dictionary. You can tell another what the dictionary says. Now they know what love is.
Everyone knows, but only those who actually experiance it understands what they know.

Hey I know an odor called zeep. Do you know what zeep is?.
I can say it smells like a rose. Now you know zeep is an odor that smells like a rose. But do you really know, understand, zeeps odor? No, you havent smelled zeep. You only know what I described.
Now 2 weeks later you get to smell zeep!! To you it smells like a lily!!!!
You understand zeeps smell now. Its in your mind. When someone says do you know the smell of zeep, you deffinately can say yes!!

To you zeep is like a lilly.
To me its like a rose.
But we both know what zeep smells like cause we both exerienced it!

[Shanti]

And to someone else that gets to smell zeep..it smells like dog doo.

All differant but all know what zeep smells like.

[Little Billy]

The answers to the questions you have for yourself.
I believe its in my sig. The answers to all your questions are inside you.
And the answers are only part of it.
To know is nothing, anyone can know things..to understand what you know is the part that takes some time.



Oh (disappointed). I don't need Taoism for THAT. I can just roll around in the filthy cesspool that is my hind-brain to get all that under control.

I thought there was some form of enlightenment attached to all of this.

LB,
Gained more understanding by being an obstinate jackass than most people can with years of meditation.

[Little Billy]

And to someone else that gets to smell zeep..it smells like dog doo.

All differant but all know what zeep smells like.

In other words, Taoism is just "self-actualization" in a pretty dress.

[Shanti]

Now heres a question. If everyone smells zeeps odor differantly.

Who is right about what zeeps odor is?
Does it smell like a rose, a lilly, dog doo?
Who is right?
They all smelled the same zeep.

The ones that didnt smell zeep are going to be really confused if all three people give their interpetation.

[Little Billy]

Now heres a question. If everyone smells zeeps odor differantly.

Who is right about what zeeps odor is?
Does it smell like a rose, a lilly, dog doo?
Who is right?
They all smelled the same zeep.

The ones that didnt smell zeep are going to be really confused if all three people give their interpetation.

Easy. They all fist fight, and the last man standing gets to say what zeep smells like.

It ain't pretty, but that's what happens.

[Shanti]

Easy. They all fist fight, and the last man standing gets to say what zeep smells like.

It ain't pretty, but that's what happens.

But thats describing a possible action not who is actually right.

Zeep is laughing ya know. Cause zeep is still zeep and nothing will change that.

[Lorrie]

OK, I'm laughing too hard now, I can't keep up with you two!:awilly: But I think understanding is being reached sort of! The concept really can't be explained and done justice! It has to be experienced. I am still back a few posts trying to find words for the last question LB asked me! I'm getting there, I'm getting there, it would be easier if I wasn't laughing so hard!:lol: 8O :yayah:

[Little Billy]

But thats describing a possible action not who is actually right.

Zeep is laughing ya know. Cause zeep is still zeep and nothing will change that.

1. Google "realpolitick".

2. Naw. Cause Zeep is just something you made up.

[Little Billy]

OK, I'm laughing too hard now, I can't keep up with you two!:awilly: But I think understanding is being reached sort of!

Understanding, yes. Agreement, no. :lol:

[Shanti]

1. Google "realpolitick".

2. Naw. Cause Zeep is just something you made up.
Of coarse I made it up. Its a koan!

[Lorrie]

How do you know that you are seeing the universe correctly?
Ok, back to the last question here. Everyone knows pretty much what ego is, but not how it affects what you see. This is projection, what you see tends to be slanted by your ego.( no, I'm not insulting you!) Once you begin to learn about projection, and understand it how it works, you begin to know if you are projecting, or really seeing reality. I learned this from reading C.G.Jung books, if you might like to find out more about it, it is a real eye- opener into human nature! It is much easier said than done to see your projections until you get used to looking for it. OK, emotions. Emotions can really mess you up and make things appear different from what they are, I think most people can agree to this? Ego loves emotions!!! Part of learning to control projection and accept reality, well, emotions just don't tend to get mixed into it all, you begin to understand why things happen the way they do and accept that it all happens for a reason, we are only human, we cannot think like the Divine, we have to trust that everything happens for a reason whether we agree with that reason or not isn't up to us, it is part of a much bigger picture that we cannot see or understand. It is all part of the circle of life, birth, death, on and on. Oh, boy am I ever running on and on here, I hope this makes at least a little sense? I know what I am trying to say, but words just can't do it all justice!

[Shanti]

Ok, back to the last question here. Everyone knows pretty much what ego is, but not how it affects what you see. This is projection, what you see tends to be slanted by your ego.( no, I'm not insulting you!) Once you begin to learn about projection, and understand it how it works, you begin to know if you are projecting, or really seeing reality. I learned this from reading C.G.Jung books, if you might like to find out more about it, it is a real eye- opener into human nature! It is much easier said than done to see your projections until you get used to looking for it. OK, emotions. Emotions can really mess you up and make things appear different from what they are, I think most people can agree to this? Ego loves emotions!!! Part of learning to control projection and accept reality, well, emotions just don't tend to get mixed into it all, you begin to understand why things happen the way they do and accept that it all happens for a reason, we are only human, we cannot think like the Divine, we have to trust that everything happens for a reason whether we agree with that reason or not isn't up to us, it is part of a much bigger picture that we cannot see or understand. It is all part of the circle of life, birth, death, on and on. Oh, boy am I ever running on and on here, I hope this makes at least a little sense? I know what I am trying to say, but words just can't do it all justice!

I love it!!
Now I want to be the dog doo...you dont even need to believe in a divine in Taoism.
The Tao is whatever you know it to be when you experience it.
It doesnt even matter cause whether you see it as divine, as universal consciousness, or the abyss of nothingness..it is always what it is. And nothings gonna change it!! It just is. Its that simple. :)
Heck you can even call it and believe it to be Zeep!!!:boing:

[Lorrie]

That's the beauty of it, real experience, your own experience of it. It can't be explained. One of my favorites is about the spokes on a wheel, or the empty part of the window, the empty space that is the useful part. It took me a long time to see this concept, then it was, oh, wow, I see now! None of it makes sense really until you live it, experience it. No one can teach you, because they can only teach you their experience, and that is not your experience. Words just can't do it! Things that not long ago would have thrown me into an emotional turmoil now I look at and wonder what will happen next, what will I learn from this? I actually look forward to the experience now, and don't try to fight it or control it anymore. What a peaceful life that makes!

[Shanti]

From my writtings thread...
Inspiration from a cup.

Look at a cup and what do you see?

i look at a cup and am filled with wondrous joy.
it is not the cup i use, it is the empty space inside!
This cup forms that space for me to fill.
A space for my hot tea on a cold winters night,
my ice water on a hot summer day!
A space to hold my thirst at bay.

What a gift this space provides to me!
What a gift this cup gives to provide that special space, for me.

To drink from that wonderful cup, to use such giving space!!
What Wondrous joy!!!
(dec 22/05)
__________________

[Lorrie]

AWESOME!!! that's exactly it!!!!!!!!!!

[Shanti]

AWESOME!!! that's exactly it!!!!!!!!!!
It took time. I realized I drink coffee all the time. But I never spent time with the cup. I always think of the coffee. The only time the cup matters is when its empty!!
But that didnt seem right.
I knew there was more to the cup.
So I spent time thinking about the cup and spent time leaving it empty.
Then that writting came to my mind.
So I wrote it!!
I also learned a lot from that cup too.
I dont see homes, or rooms or even the refrigerator the same way anymore. Heck outside everything changed! Theres is so much to learn in such a simple thing as a cup, usually never thought of.

Now I am working on the empty space.
How empty is empty space.
When is it no longer empty.
What makes it empty.
Where does empty go when its full.
Does it go anywhere.
Whats changing what.
How do I feel when I preceive empty vrs full?

Eventually I will find something in this empty that also changes my perception. So far I found the empty. Now I yearn to understand the empty. Spend time with it, lots of time. :)

[Little Billy]

Of coarse I made it up. Its a koan!

No it isn't.

[Little Billy]

That's the beauty of it, real experience, your own experience of it. It can't be explained. One of my favorites is about the spokes on a wheel, or the empty part of the window, the empty space that is the useful part.

No. At least not the wheel part. The spokes are your load-bearing surface. The empty part is only there to conserve weight.

[Lorrie]

IT'S ZEEP!!!:lol:

[Little Billy]

IT'S ZEEP!!!:lol:

See? This is why Zen is useless.

[Shanti]

What are you buying when you buy a house?
Your buying a place to live, right?
But you dont live in the house. The house is the walls, the floor, the ceilings. You cant live in those. You are buying the empty space. Its the empty space you actually live in.
The walls and floor and ceilings are just lines that show where your empty space is.

And then you buy this empty space and what do we do? We fill it up with our stuff. If we have to much stuff then we need more empty space so we go buy more empty space, a bigger house, more empty space!

[Lorrie]

Zen? Who invited zen to this party? zen is scary, they like to hit people!:shaker: where'd they go?:bug: Hide me, hide me!!:fpeek: Are they gone yet????:awilly:

[Little Billy]

Zen? Who invited zen to this party? zen is scary, they like to hit people!:shaker: where'd they go?:bug: Hide me, hide me!!:fpeek: Are they gone yet????:awilly:


Zazen is about the ONLY part of Zen that I like.

[Shanti]

Zen? Who invited zen to this party? zen is scary, they like to hit people!:shaker: where'd they go?:bug: Hide me, hide me!!:fpeek: Are they gone yet????:awilly:

My bad, I used the word Koan to discribe my thoughts I posted for pondering. It was the closest word, that has several meanings, that I could find to discribe my attempt of pondering thought. Koans are most often used in Zen.
But it fit the closest at what I was attempting! :)

[Lorrie]

Does that mean it's safe to come out now??? Is zen gone??:awilly:

[Shanti]

Did zen move into my empty house?
~looks around~
Nope, its all empty!! Ya can come out now Lorrie!!:hehehehe:

[Lorrie]

:hahugh: whew, that was close.

[Doctor Jeep]

Lao Tzu is the founder of Taoism. The Tao Te Ching is the only thing he ever wrote.
Everything else written was done by other people and 'their' interpitation of what is meant in the Tao Te Chings messages.

As VV alluded to, this is in dispute. Many feel that the TTC was written by several people, resulting in the book we know today.

Of course, in the end who wrote it/how many really doesn't matter. The message within is what counts.

There is no right or wrong, there is only your way that you feel is right.

Well...hmm. I don't think it's a matter of there not being a right or wrong. I think it's more that Taoists have their own, personal view of right or wrong. In other words, they wouldn't subscribe to absolute rights and wrongs, nor would they try to impose their personal view on anyone else.

Of course, maybe that's what you're trying to say above and I'm just not reading it right. ;)

Having said all this, I find it hard to believe that any Taoist would think about what Hitler did and not find it to be wrong in one way or another.

[Doctor Jeep]

I'm a Taoist sympathizer with heavy Taoist influences, but I stopped shy of going full tilt after I read some bit about how you're supposed to train yourself to have retrograde ejaculations so you don't waste your spirit energy. Screw that.

Sounds like you were reading about the more religious/alchemical aspect of Taoism. That side never appealed to me either.

I personally do not feel one has to follow that path to be a Taoist.

[EternalMaiden]

And yes, to follow up on what Doctor Jeep was saying Taoist monks might tell you that the Tao Te Ching written by LaoTzu was more correctly written by Lao's. (Laotzu, Lao Lai Tzu, and Lao Tan), who lived within 200 years of each other.
I am reading some history on the Tao Te Ching, and it has many evolved/translated texts following up on it... I respect that, and appreciate it, seeing as how Taoists and Buddhists alike pride themselves on being cryptic and parable-like.

If you guys are interested, sacred-texts has an outstanding library concerning the TAO and Taoism. (See the SecondEdition LaoTzu Tao and Wu Wei)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/index.htm