Abortions...

[paper_majic]

What exactly is right and wrong with this?
I know that Abortion is looked down upon by christians, and I believe that they're right, in some ways, about it being murder.
So, what are the "rules" of abortion to the wiccan community? Do we condemn it just like other religions do?

[CalisticSunrise]

i think its more of a personal choice. some people think its ok some think its wrong.

Personaly i think it's the womens choice until it becomes past 14 weeks then only for medical reasons

[Convallaria]

There isn't one big wiccan rule book (outside of covens as far as I know) that says "you can do this, but you can't do that."

It's a personal choice as far as I'm concerned.

How can it be murder if the government doesn't recognize unborn fetuses as peoples? (political question, not my personal belief)

[Eroda]

Bit of a hazy subject really, i like to consider it as a personal choice that only the woman carrying the child could take.

I think in certain situations such as a rape, its a necessity really if the mother is not going to love the child when its born. I dont know how a women would feel about it but im guessing they might reject it and feel they couldn't bring it up under the circumstances.
Also when its an unwanted pregnancy, i tend to think an abortion is better than an child that when its born, isn't given the full love and attention that it deserves. I guess u could bring in the argument that the child could be adopted when its born though or that the mother will love the child even if its unwanted, i dont know really.

Its something i dont really like to comment on as its impossible to judge unless your actually in the situation. I certainly dont think it should be banned though, people should have the right to make up their own mind about it.

[dr_zeus440]

considering wicca:
"an it harm none, do what ye will"
hence, if bringing a child into the world is going to harm it, abortion is allowable.
hence, if aborting a foetus is going to harm it, abortion is not allowable.
therefore, wicca is confused by abortion.

considering wiccans:
there is no one accepted view of abortion by the general populace of wiccans.

[DebLipp]

Wicca doesn't have "official" positions on controversies because Wicca doesn't have an "office" to issue "official" positions. Wicca is a religion of immanence in which each person makes life decisions based on the Goddess or God within. Because of that, most Wiccans trust each woman to listen to her inner Goddess and make her own decision, whether she favors or opposes abortion.

Some Wiccans oppose abortion because they feel it violates "harm none" and because birth and pregnancy are sacred.

Some Wiccans are pro-choice because they believe a woman's sacred nature is inclusive of her right to choose, and the sacredness of birth and pregnancy mean that they should only be undertaken when the woman truly chooses them.

[Faeawyn]

Its just such a personal decision based on so many variables. If the fetus has not developed beyond the first trimester, then I feel its perfectly acceptable to abort. Even tho I don't believe the baby has a soul until birth, after the first trimester, when it starts to look like a baby...I think its too late to abort because now it's a little person. If the time isn't right for the mother to have a baby, she should know well before then.
Once again, I agree with Eroda. If the woman is not prepared to be a mother, or is in an emotionally fragile place, then its just not right for her to go thru with it. I understand that there are people who want to adopt children, but to put a womans body thru such an ordeal, and to put her thru such emotional termoil is unfair.

[MorningDove030202]

I've met some rather Pro-Life Wiccans.... it's dividing issue at times within the pagan and wiccan community. Many of us are about respecting life so much that abortion is just out of the question, and many of us focus on people's right to choose. I don't think there is an offical belief on when exactly life starts, if that's what your asking. Personaly I'm pro-choice but I feel that birth control, and Emergency Controception are much beter than having to go threw an aportion or an adoption. Contrary to the bumper sticker kids are a choice, you can chose to use birthcontrol. I also feel that as scary as having a baby can be (even when you are married, because it scared the heck out of me!) it can help you to grow up and become a responsible adult.

Dove

[Katya]

well, i think of it as a personal choice. i will never have an abortion. i'll just have the baby and adopt it out if need be. but i don't think it's wrong at all. if you want to do it, hell, it's your body, not mine. i just don't want to do it.

[CalisticSunrise]

Its just such a personal decision based on so many variables. If the fetus has not developed beyond the first trimester, then I feel its perfectly acceptable to abort. Even tho I don't believe the baby has a soul until birth, after the first trimester, when it starts to look like a baby...I think its too late to abort because now it's a little person. If the time isn't right for the mother to have a baby, she should know well before then.
Once again, I agree with Eroda. If the woman is not prepared to be a mother, or is in an emotionally fragile place, then its just not right for her to go thru with it. I understand that there are people who want to adopt children, but to put a womans body thru such an ordeal, and to put her thru such emotional termoil is unfair.


I completly agree

[misschief]

i'm a little bothered because you are asking what 'we' believe. make your own decision and apply it, forget everyone else.

oh.. and i don't know about abortion and wicca, i don't believe there are any set rules, but i'm not wiccan.. so i really don't know. i'd say there aren't, i mean.. that would be ridiculous.

[Xentor]

Admin mode

Moved to Family and Parenting.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I'm with DebLipp; there's nothing official about it.

Personally, I think bringing a child into this world is immensely important and sacred, so therefore shouldn't be done if you don't want to undertake such a serious thing or are unable. I think abortion, as well, should be undertaken in full seriousness and with firm belief that it's the best thing. Many people I talk to, Wiccan and Pagan, seem to think that abortion is harm, and in general bad, but that it also causes harm to interfere with others' freedom and they don't feel right imposing their choices on others. But as mentioned before, these are personal opinions of individuals, who happen to be of a certain religious persuasion; there is no doctrine or official decree or anything.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Kadynas]

Some Wiccans are pro-choice because they believe a woman's sacred nature is inclusive of her right to choose, and the sacredness of birth and pregnancy mean that they should only be undertaken when the woman truly chooses them.

That's basically my view on the matter as well... but like everyone's said, there is no "official" position and I'm glad for that. I think the world would be a much better place if there was more respect for those that hold different viewpoints then ourselves. The whole "live your life as you choose, and let others do the same" thing is very important to me. :)

[MorningDove030202]

I know this is kinda controversial, but I belive that every child should be wanted and to me that means either by the mother or the father or by both. I think that if the father wanted to keep the child, and the mother doesn't the mom should have the baby and give him or her up to the father totaly. Fathers have a right to their children, if they choose it. They should have just as much say as the mother.

Dove

[CalisticSunrise]

I know this is kinda controversial, but I belive that every child should be wanted and to me that means either by the mother or the father or by both. I think that if the father wanted to keep the child, and the mother doesn't the mom should have the baby and give him or her up to the father totaly. Fathers have a right to their children, if they choose it. They should have just as much say as the mother.

Dove

Well said dove...

[Unorthodox]

I believe it is every woman's personal choice-but a choice you will have to live with forever. My sister-in-law had an abortion 10 years ago-now she wants kids and cannot conceive. She thinks about what could have been every day. I personally don't ever want children. I think that whatever decision is made has consequences-you have to be willing to live with them.

[Semele]

I have to agree with most everyone else on the issue. It is so personal an issue and so important that I don't think we should ever just go with the majority of those like us. Lets continue to make this decision based on many, many factors, the least of which being what other people say about it being right or wrong. In the end you have to live with your decisions, so make ones you can live with.

[Pandoras]

I value the living mother over the fetus and I believe in a woman's right to choose. However, I'm against abortion once the fetus is viable, which I define as a fetus that has reached a stage of development so that there is a reasonable probability of the child's sustained survival outside the uterus without artificial support.

Nevertheless, I don't favor any legislation that tries to limit abortion because I believe it inevitably leads to the chipping away of the right to abortion itself.

[Muireannach]

Whenever people want to talk about abortion, all I can say is: "If you don't like abortions, don't have one!"

[soilsigh aingeal]

I think it depends who you are. I know Christians who are OK with abortions, I know at least one who has had an abortion. I know non-christians (various, incl. pagan) who are against abortion.

[fahawk]

It is one of the most "personal" things in the world.. it is not for anyone else to say..and certainly not to be ruled by religion or politics!!!

[arctic splash]

I think, just like everyone else, Christians have differing views on abortion. It depends on who you talk to, what church you visit. Quakers and UU's, I believe, do not have an official position on abortion, and beliefs vary considerably from person to person. I don't know about other sects...

One aspect of the Buddhist eight-fold path is about 'right action' and, much as in Wicca, harming none. Some people think this means never killing animals for food and becoming vegetarians. Some think this means never having an abortion. It's all very subjective, and has to do with what you think is the best way to harm none. Same with Wicca.

[celestrialdragon]

I have to agree with everyone who has said that it is a very personal choice, and no wiccan religion makes a genneral ruleing on the subject. I personally belive in a womans right to choose.There are thousands of reasons why a woman would choose to do this, and it is her right. Like someone already siad, we may have all the same general belifes, but how we inturpret them is compeletly up to each person.

[OriginalWacky]

I know this is kinda controversial, but I belive that every child should be wanted and to me that means either by the mother or the father or by both. I think that if the father wanted to keep the child, and the mother doesn't the mom should have the baby and give him or her up to the father totaly. Fathers have a right to their children, if they choose it. They should have just as much say as the mother.

Dove
Here's a poser then. If a man and woman conceive, even though they have been using birth control (as far as they both know), and the father wants it, the mother would have to adopt it to him, if I understood you correctly.

So what if the man was certain that he didn't want children, had a vasectomy, and it didn't work, and the woman got pregnant? If she really wanted to keep that child, should he be forced to pay for it and support it through it's life?

[~~Cypher~~]

abortions are wrong PERIOD... they are evil, and the are murderous, I think anyone who says I cant have kids, I am under to much stress, should walk 2 days in my shoes and then they will see stress... damn or at least give the baby up for adoption! Abortion is sickening... and wrong... how can you justify take a life, dont tell me that the baby aint alive because that is a crock of crap for the simple fact that a 3d ultrasound revealed that a 3 WEEK OLD BABY was sucking its thumb so go blow that "It aint alive" smoke up someone else's wazzu because it aint working. Let me suck you into a vacum or chop you into little pieces then sucked into a vacum and you tell me if it is wrong or what!!

[Ceres]

three week old embryos dont yet have hands, let alone fingers. in fact, at nine weeks gestation, the hands are just beginning to sprout from their flipper like appendages.

[~~Cypher~~]

mighta been over the top with three weeks... but it was all i could remember of it... hmm... well anyways... I am right about the early thumb suckin thing... just cant remember... i know it was on the news... hmm.... sorry if I offended anyone btw

[fahawk]

Life is full of the times we must make a choice..and NO one can say if that choice is right or wrong..there may not even be a right or wrong in the case of abortion.....how can any of us know, or make that decision for any one elses life..
We do not have to agree, but we can disagree and be respectful of another persons decision- cause we arent living any one elses life- they are living it..

[~~Vampy's~~Boo~~]

abortion is wrong nowadays there is no excuse :noway:
u always have a choice in any situation _happydanc

[LacyRoze]

I think it's each individuals choice. Who am I to judge a woman when I haven't been in her shoes..

[Dawa Lhamo]

abortion is wrong nowadays there is no excuse :noway:
u always have a choice in any situation _happydancRight, you always have a choice, and you should always be given a choice. If it's something the person can live with, then why deny them that choice? I'm not pro-abortion, but I'm definitely pro-choice. If I'm too poor to support a child (or in a bad position, like in HS or in an abusive relationship), and I will not keep it, then isn't it morally wrong to force me to endure 9 months of pain, incontinence, discomfort, and make me pay for pre-natal care, when I will have to take off from work for maternity leave? I haven't heard the pro-life people talk about taking care of pregnant women, just all about forcing them to carry the baby to term. Bringing it back to Wicca, since that was the original question, I personally don't see Wicca as necessarily justifying this point of view. Either way someone's going to be harmed, it's just a matter of determining who you want to harm. I think if you're going to support the view of forcing pregnant women to carry to term, then you're going to have to treat those women wonderfully and implement steps to take care of them; otherwise your position is morally untenable. IMO only.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Calen]

So what if the man was certain that he didn't want children, had a vasectomy, and it didn't work, and the woman got pregnant? If she really wanted to keep that child, should he be forced to pay for it and support it through it's life?

That's a really interesting question. He took the necessary measures to prevent himself from impregnating anyone. Maybe they'd get the doctor who mucked up his surgury to support the baby ;)

As far as my opinion, I support a woman's right to choose. If it were up to me, I think I'd have the baby regardless of the circumstances, and if I didn't want it, I would give it up for adoption. But I definitely think, like nearly everyone seems to, that it's a personal choice.

[Abren]

I think its a desicion you probably can't make till you are in the sort of situation where abortion would be a serious choice
I think I'm against it, but if I had to make the decision for some reasons...I don't know what I'd do.
It all depends on the person and circumstances

[~~Cypher~~]

Even if you have a choice... I have a choice wether or not to walk up to my neighbor and slit her throat, even though she would richly deserve it... but that is immoral and wrong... its the same thing with abortions... no matter how u look at it... it is still murder

[Ceres]

your neighbour can go on living if u move away and cease to annoy her, and your life is not affected by her doing so...an embryo cant live on its own. the embryonic stage is also a stage fraught with peril for the fragile embryo. it often dies on its own anyway (at least 25% of all pregnancies ends in miscarriage, some experts argue 33%). even the most adament pro lifers dont treat the death of an embryo (when the mother miscarries and knows it) as equal to the death of a baby.
that said, i am neither prochoice nor prolife. the decision to end the embryonic stage of pregnancy by choice is far too serious a matter to decide in a one size fits all manner. each woman must decide for herself, with all the information available and preferably with support (but not coersion) in place to help her as needed. an embryo has the potential to become a human in most cases, but it doesnt have full human status until it can survive outside the womb.

[dr_zeus440]

in fact, at nine weeks gestation, the hands are just beginning to sprout from their flipper like appendages.

then its settled: up to 9 weeks, embryos are not people


.....they are dolphins.

[skye*]

Me personally am highly against it as a form of birth control, however if a women has been raped or molested and was with child for those reasons than i find it okay.

I on the other hand carried my child full term and gave him up for adoption. I had a bad experience and needed to keep my baby safe from his father.
I could have had an abortion and he would have never found out i was preg at all, but i couldnt take my babys life away. I also knew there was a family out there that would love and cherish him as much as i.
Wich i did find a family that did exactly that, and has loved him for 7 yrs now, as one of there own.

It is a HUGE sacrifice to let something you love so dearly go, but to me it is a bigger sacrifice to not let that baby live at all.

[Ceres]

i just had a new thought on this debate...women have always had a choice. the option to abort has always been there and will always be no matter what the laws are - the great debate is whether or not to provide a safe alternative to end a pregnancy because women are going to and always have done so when they chose.

[~~Cypher~~]

your neighbour can go on living if u move away and cease to annoy her, and your life is not affected by her doing so...an embryo cant live on its own. the embryonic stage is also a stage fraught with peril for the fragile embryo. it often dies on its own anyway (at least 25% of all pregnancies ends in miscarriage, some experts argue 33%). even the most adament pro lifers dont treat the death of an embryo (when the mother miscarries and knows it) as equal to the death of a baby.
that said, i am neither prochoice nor prolife. the decision to end the embryonic stage of pregnancy by choice is far too serious a matter to decide in a one size fits all manner. each woman must decide for herself, with all the information available and preferably with support (but not coersion) in place to help her as needed. an embryo has the potential to become a human in most cases, but it doesnt have full human status until it can survive outside the womb.


that makes it even worse... because the embro is helpless... how can you say that? "Full human status" my ass... when that baby sucks its thumb it is a baby... when that babys heart beats it is a human... it is just plain murder... and I will condem anyone who chooses to have an abortion... because it is legal murder.

[Athena-Nadine]

that makes it even worse... because the embro is helpless... how can you say that? "Full human status" my ass... when that baby sucks its thumb it is a baby... when that babys heart beats it is a human... it is just plain murder... and I will condem anyone who chooses to have an abortion... because it is legal murder.
I know a woman who already had three children. She was on birth control, and did everything she could, short of surgery to avoid getting pregnant. She and her husband conceived anyway. Having that child would have meant no longer being able to afford to feed and take care of the children she already has. She was also a very high risk and carrying a pregnancy to term could have killed her. She didn't make her decision lightly. In fact, it was the most difficult decision she ever had to make. It broke her heart to decide to abort that pregnancy. But she doesn't regret it. Her job as a wife and mother to her husband and existing children rightly took precedence over everything else. Tell me something--why should she have risked leaving the children she already has without a mother? Why should she be forced to risk her own life and that of her other children?

Why should a 14-year old girl, who is raped in high school by the boy she is seeing, have to risk her own life to carry a not only unwanted, but hated, pregnancy to term?

Why should the girl be forced to carry the child of her perverted, criminal, molesting father/uncle/brother to term?

It's all well and good to decide you will condemn every woman who has an abortion, but it's really none of your business, nor is it your place to comdemn anyone for the choices thay are often forced to make. To say that abortion is so black and white is a fantasy. It would be wonderful if it were true, but unfortunately, life all too often doesn't give us the luxury of simplicity.

[Ceres]

by your own criteria, abortions are fine for women up till 40 days after conception, the time when the heart starts to beat. thats almost 9 weeks into a pregnancy...the thumb sucking doesnt happen till it has thumbs, at least the end of the first trimester. are u saying abortion is not a problem before the heart beats then? there is no moral dilema before that? i think its always a difficult decision, even when it takes place before the heart is beating. the embryo has the potential to become a person from the time its conceived. do YOU treat an early miscarriage the same as the death of a baby( cypher)? i dont think they are the same thing at all and i ought to know, i have actually lost pregnancies to miscarriage at the embryonic stage.

[xmezumiiru]

that makes it even worse... because the embro is helpless... how can you say that? "Full human status" my *badword*... when that baby sucks its thumb it is a baby... when that babys heart beats it is a human... it is just plain murder... and I will condem anyone who chooses to have an abortion... because it is legal murder.

You have absolutely no right to condemn unless you have been there. I'm a scientist and I know the facts, not the religious dribble that you have been fed to come up with your hate-mongering.

Up until 7-8 week, there is not an organ that can be defined as a muscle, let alone a heart. At 8-9 weeks, a vaguely human outline appears, but has yet to develop the majority of the major organs and has only a cartiage-type skeleton. At this point, the fetus is only 20-30% different when compared to a shark. Before the 7th week, only DNA can distinguish a human fetus from all other animal fetuses. After about the 9th week, does a fetus resemble a (distorted) human and this is when the mouth appears. The ablility for suction, aka sucking a thumb, does not occur for 4-5 more weeks. Higher brain function does not occur until 20-24 week. This higher brain function is required for more than seizure type movements. (http://www.visembryo.com/baby/, Planned Parenthood, The Government Center for Reproductive Health) In otherwords, my cat is more sentient than a 2nd semester fetus.

Just so you know, fetal puppies are also shown to suck their paws in the womb. (Anatomy of Canine Behavior) However, most vets believe this is just an accidental meeting of parts.

Aside from the facts, would you rather have a woman live in poverty because she cannot support herself, let alone a baby, when the father abandons her or would you rather this woman become successful and then have a child or children who are well taken care of with a loving father? And before you even think of adoption, the woman would have lost all funding to go to college and still be in poverty afterwards.

It's people like you that flap your mouth before you think that make it so difficult for the woman community and the pagan community to be taken seriously. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. As for me, no matter what the circumstances, a woman should have a safe choice. I don't believe in abortion as repeated birth control, or after 5th month abortions, so I won't do that, but I cannot tell another not to.

Do you not know of the nearly 1,000,000 kids in orphanages and foster care? Or do you not care so long as your delicate sensibilities are not distrubed? What about the countless unnamed women and babies that are injured or die during births that should have been aborted, but weren't because of a simplistic view such as yours?

Go ahead and argue this, because a person can sit behind a keyboard and say whatever because you are nameless and faceless. But only an idoit would say such awful things to my face because any smart person would be ashamed of themselves. Also, don't curse, it does nothing for your position.

[Morrighan61]

Unless the child was going to be born damaged to the point where they would have barely any life at all I would not personally choose abortion. Raped or not, danger to my own life, or not. If I could bring that child into the world I would consider it a blessing. If not to me personally, than to the folks that do get to parent that child.

I look at it this way....

Life is very precious and nature has a way of making something bad into something good. How many times have you walked through a concrete urban wasteland only to find one perfect flower growing up through concrete?

I'm not saying that a woman shouldn't be able to make up her own mind.

This is MY personal feelings on this one.

The right to choose your own path, control your own body is sacred to me. That being said, I view abortion as a pitiful waste and I am all for the alternatives.

Being Pagan I know that all life is recycled and that if that child is truly meant to be born? It will be. I don't believe in abortion for the sake of convenience, but I am humane enough to realize that sometimes it is necessary.

I don't judge.

I may be sad for the loss of a child, but I'd still comfort the woman involved and try to understand too.

Morrighan

[soilsigh aingeal]

You have absolutely no right to condemn unless you have been there. I'm a scientist and I know the facts, not the religious dribble that you have been fed to come up with your hate-mongering.

Up until 7-8 week, there is not an organ that can be defined as a muscle, let alone a heart. At 8-9 weeks, a vaguely human outline appears, but has yet to develop the majority of the major organs and has only a cartiage-type skeleton. At this point, the fetus is only 20-30% different when compared to a shark. Before the 7th week, only DNA can distinguish a human fetus from all other animal fetuses. After about the 9th week, does a fetus resemble a (distorted) human and this is when the mouth appears. The ablility for suction, aka sucking a thumb, does not occur for 4-5 more weeks. Higher brain function does not occur until 20-24 week. This higher brain function is required for more than seizure type movements. (http://www.visembryo.com/baby/, Planned Parenthood, The Government Center for Reproductive Health) In otherwords, my cat is more sentient than a 2nd semester fetus.

Just so you know, fetal puppies are also shown to suck their paws in the womb. (Anatomy of Canine Behavior) However, most vets believe this is just an accidental meeting of parts.

Aside from the facts, would you rather have a woman live in poverty because she cannot support herself, let alone a baby, when the father abandons her or would you rather this woman become successful and then have a child or children who are well taken care of with a loving father? And before you even think of adoption, the woman would have lost all funding to go to college and still be in poverty afterwards.

It's people like you that flap your mouth before you think that make it so difficult for the woman community and the People community to be taken seriously. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. As for me, no matter what the circumstances, a woman should have a safe choice. I don't believe in abortion as repeated birth control, or after 5th month abortions, so I won't do that, but I cannot tell another not to.

Do you not know of the nearly 1,000,000 kids in orphanages and foster care? Or do you not care so long as your delicate sensibilities are not distrubed? What about the countless unnamed women and babies that are injured or die during births that should have been aborted, but weren't because of a simplistic view such as yours?

Go ahead and argue this, because a person can sit behind a keyboard and say whatever because you are nameless and faceless. But only an idoit would say such awful things to my face because any smart person would be ashamed of themselves. Also, don't curse, it does nothing for your position.You will get karma when I get more :yourock:


Being People I know that all life is recycled and that if that child is truly meant to be born? It will be. I don't believe in abortion for the sake of convenience, but I am humane enough to realize that sometimes it is necessary. those are exactly my views on this.

[Yvonne Belisle]

that makes it even worse... because the embro is helpless... how can you say that? "Full human status" my ass... when that baby sucks its thumb it is a baby... when that babys heart beats it is a human... it is just plain murder... and I will condem anyone who chooses to have an abortion... because it is legal murder.


Put your money where your mouth is. Take and care for the family of a woman who chose not to abort knowing it would kill her. Take and care for a family of a woman who chose not to abort and can no longer go to school because most scholarships have a time limit. Take and care for a family who despite precautions got pregnant when they couldn't afford to shelter another child. Go and adopt some special needs children who are stuck in the foster care system because people don't want nonperfect babies. When you do all of that I will follow your opinion and agree with you but until you have done that don't criticize those of us who have had to do things we didn't want to do.

[The High Queen of Faerie]

There isn't one big wiccan rule book (outside of covens as far as I know) that says "you can do this, but you can't do that."

It's a personal choice as far as I'm concerned.

How can it be murder if the government doesn't recognize unborn fetuses as peoples? (political question, not my personal belief)

thank you. <3

well said. my sentiments exactly.

[Ceres]

So True Morrighan! babies that are meant to be born ARE born. ask any couple who thought they had done all that could be done to prevent pregnancy and find themselves parents anyway - and there are plenty of them.

[~~Cypher~~]

I know a woman who already had three children. She was on birth control, and did everything she could, short of surgery to avoid getting pregnant. She and her husband conceived anyway. Having that child would have meant no longer being able to afford to feed and take care of the children she already has. She was also a very high risk and carrying a pregnancy to term could have killed her. She didn't make her decision lightly. In fact, it was the most difficult decision she ever had to make. It broke her heart to decide to abort that pregnancy. But she doesn't regret it. Her job as a wife and mother to her husband and existing children rightly took precedence over everything else. Tell me something--why should she have risked leaving the children she already has without a mother? Why should she be forced to risk her own life and that of her other children?

Why should a 14-year old girl, who is raped in high school by the boy she is seeing, have to risk her own life to carry a not only unwanted, but hated, pregnancy to term?

Why should the girl be forced to carry the child of her perverted, criminal, molesting father/uncle/brother to term?

It's all well and good to decide you will condemn every woman who has an abortion, but it's really none of your business, nor is it your place to comdemn anyone for the choices thay are often forced to make. To say that abortion is so black and white is a fantasy. It would be wonderful if it were true, but unfortunately, life all too often doesn't give us the luxury of simplicity.


the docs told my mom to abort me... because we would both die... but here I sit today... cant afford more children stop screwing... period... if you concieve... give it up to adoption

[~~Cypher~~]

You have absolutely no right to condemn unless you have been there. I'm a scientist and I know the facts, not the religious dribble that you have been fed to come up with your hate-mongering.

Up until 7-8 week, there is not an organ that can be defined as a muscle, let alone a heart. At 8-9 weeks, a vaguely human outline appears, but has yet to develop the majority of the major organs and has only a cartiage-type skeleton. At this point, the fetus is only 20-30% different when compared to a shark. Before the 7th week, only DNA can distinguish a human fetus from all other animal fetuses. After about the 9th week, does a fetus resemble a (distorted) human and this is when the mouth appears. The ablility for suction, aka sucking a thumb, does not occur for 4-5 more weeks. Higher brain function does not occur until 20-24 week. This higher brain function is required for more than seizure type movements. (http://www.visembryo.com/baby/, Planned Parenthood, The Government Center for Reproductive Health) In otherwords, my cat is more sentient than a 2nd semester fetus.


when do the cells of the heart beat? the minute they beat... that embryo is a person
Just so you know, fetal puppies are also shown to suck their paws in the womb. (Anatomy of Canine Behavior) However, most vets believe this is just an accidental meeting of parts.

Aside from the facts, would you rather have a woman live in poverty because she cannot support herself, let alone a baby, when the father abandons her or would you rather this woman become successful and then have a child or children who are well taken care of with a loving father? And before you even think of adoption, the woman would have lost all funding to go to college and still be in poverty afterwards.

It's people like you that flap your mouth before you think that make it so difficult for the woman community and the pagan community to be taken seriously. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. As for me, no matter what the circumstances, a woman should have a safe choice. I don't believe in abortion as repeated birth control, or after 5th month abortions, so I won't do that, but I cannot tell another not to.

Do you not know of the nearly 1,000,000 kids in orphanages and foster care? Or do you not care so long as your delicate sensibilities are not distrubed? What about the countless unnamed women and babies that are injured or die during births that should have been aborted, but weren't because of a simplistic view such as yours?

Go ahead and argue this, because a person can sit behind a keyboard and say whatever because you are nameless and faceless. But only an idoit would say such awful things to my face because any smart person would be ashamed of themselves. Also, don't curse, it does nothing for your position.

when do the cells of the heart start beating? the minute that heart beats... that embryo is a child.

[~~Cypher~~]

Put your money where your mouth is. Take and care for the family of a woman who chose not to abort knowing it would kill her. Take and care for a family of a woman who chose not to abort and can no longer go to school because most scholarships have a time limit. Take and care for a family who despite precautions got pregnant when they couldn't afford to shelter another child. Go and adopt some special needs children who are stuck in the foster care system because people don't want nonperfect babies. When you do all of that I will follow your opinion and agree with you but until you have done that don't criticize those of us who have had to do things we didn't want to do.

try this... for put ur money where your mouth is... I am a seventeen year old man... I took my two twin children when they were babies... little babies weeks old and I cared for them... and I still continue to care for them... I pay all the bills... do all the chores... take care of my mother who is disabled... so you put your money where your mouth is... because I already have thank you very much have a nice day come again.

if you dont want a child... dont have sex... plain and simple... I dont want anymore... I havent had sex in years

[halfwaynowhere]

i am pro-choice, i agree with a lot of the arguments here, but i honestly think this issue is best left up to the individual to decide. It isn't easy to decide on having an abortion. it can haunt you for the rest of your life. But having a child and putting it up for adoption can also haunt you. My sister was raped by her boyfriend and got pregnant, and she didn't tell anybody because she was too ashamed. so she went for about six and a half months, and finally told when she realized she couldn't hide it anymore. luckily we knew of a family that had been trying to concieve for several years and couldn't, and they gladly adopted the child. My sister does get visitation, she went and visited their family just yesterday. Way back when she had just found out about being pregnant, she was considering an abortion, but she had no money and no transportation. and then she was considering running away and keeping the baby, but living on the streets. it really isn't an easy decision to make either way, and a woman shouldn't be criticized for whatever decision she makes, because she makes that decision for her own well being as well as for the well being of her baby.

[gurlygurl2004]

I used to be prolife, mostly because of religious beliefs. But lately I've become very prochoice because I feel that the gov't shouldn't make a choice like that for an indivisual woman. Religious I understand abortions cases of rape, and even a few medical situations. Personally I still not sure I would ever do this, but you should definitely have a good reason to do it.

[Ceres]

when do the cells of the heart start beating? the minute that heart beats... that embryo is a child.

so abortions up to 40 days after conception (whent he heart beats) are ok in your opinion? thats 54 days from the last mentrual period, or about 8 weeks gestation. why the heart, in particular? it is after all, simply a pulmonary function, moving blood around. why not when brain activity can be measured or when the lungs begin to function, breathing in and out amnitiotic fluid? incidentally, many women are told they will have no problem giving birth and they die in pregnancy or giving birth - there are no guarantees.
my mother was also told to abort me, but i dont use it as an excuse to impose my beliefs on others. she chose not to, but i cant really see how that relates to another woman in another situation. women are going to abort pregnancies - the only question is if we are going to allow them to have it done as a medical procedure or if we are going to leave them alone them to use dangerous alternatives.

[HorseCrow]

so abortions up to 40 days after conception (whent he heart beats) are ok in your opinion? thats 54 days from the last mentrual period, or about 8 weeks gestation.

The fetal heart starts beating on day 21-22 after conception (that is approx 35 days after the first day of the last menstruation the woman has had), that is at 5 weeks gestation.

[Ceres]

The fetal heart starts beating on day 21-22 after conception (that is approx 35 days after the first day of the last menstruation the woman has had), that is at 5 weeks gestation.

i assume your information is more accurate since u have access to more recent information. my information comes from research i did some time ago when i was having a miscarriage. obviously equipment has become more sensetive. thank you. i think my point still stands tho, cypher.

[Dawa Lhamo]

my mother was also told to abort me, but i dont use it as an excuse to impose my beliefs on others. she chose not to, but i cant really see how that relates to another woman in another situation. Actually, I wouldn't exist if my mother hadn't had an abortion. She'd have never met my father unless it was years and years down the line. (They lived 800 miles apart.) Sure that child would have lived, but my brothers and I wouldn't have been born. Perhaps it's selfish of me, but I'm glad I exist, and I'm glad for the circumstances of my existence. Now, this isn't to argue in favor of abortion, but it illustrates the point that the universe is so unpredictable and varied, that it's hard to say that such and such will happen and make guarantees. I can't say that this woman who has an abortion will not go on to raise wonderful children when the time is right or that she won't always wonder what could have been. I don't think any of us can say that. So shouldn't it be on the conscience of every woman (and the father, in many cases) who considers abortion to determine with what they know right at that moment whether or not it's the right decision?

And as far as the heartbeat thing goes, some people consider it a person when they take their first breath (breath being associated with the soul), others think it happens a couple weeks or a few days before birth, and still others think it happens at conception itself; some even think that it happens some time (days or months) after birth. Why is the heart the defining moment? Because blood is associated with lifeforce to you? And if I think of blood as minor and breath as the major determining process of life, then why should your view have precedence over mine?

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Ceres]

its interesting u mention that....the idea that an abortion might lead to a different baby being born at a different time occured to me today while i was cleaning my bathroon and thinking about this thread while i scrubbed...lol
having been pregnant five times and having given birth three times, i can honestly say that even when i carried the babies to full term i felt when they were born that they werent what i had thought they would be while i carried them. i have heard theories that post partum depression in mothers of newborns can be caused by the shock of finding out that the baby u thought u knew and came to love inside you has been replaced by a stranger u gave birth to. (but eventually come to know and love as well) i dont know what ppl mean exactly when they talk about a soul, so i cant say when i think babies get one.

[Londubh]

I think that when a woman becomes pregnant she becomes the physical manifestation of the gate of spirit.

She can choose whether or not to let this spirit enter this world, this physical plane. If she chooses not to, her decision doesn’t kill the spirit.

In my opinion.

I also think that any decision a woman makes, she has to make for herself. She alone will have to live with her decisions. Only she knows what the circumstances are.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Considering I was raped tell me how I was to avoid it?

[Dio]

i dont know what ppl mean exactly when they talk about a soul, so i cant say when i think babies get one.


Well, my personal experience with this is I literally felt the moment my son's spirit entered.

All during the beginning of my pregnancy, I felt a 'force' with me...Almost like a buzzing feeling that kept getting stronger and stronger as the pregnancy progressed. I could feel his presence around me...like waiting. At about 4 months into my pregnancy, I was just sitting around, and all of the sudden I had this overwhelming warm sensation that engulfed me. I got kind of dizzy, and at that moment, I knew...just knew, that his spirit entered. Everything felt more awake, and alive. The life inside of me felt more awake. It's hard to explain, but I will never ever forget that feeling.

I agree with Londubh when she says that pregnant women are the gate for life.....I personally felt this way.

[Black RiverWolf]

i belive that it is the womans choice to do what she feels is best for her and the child. if bringing the child into the world would mean that it would suffer then do what is best if it would be okay and go to a loving family or be born into a loving family where it is wanted and loved then do what is right. If i founf myself in a postion where i felt that i could not care for the child and myself on my own then i would do what i needed to do.

[Athena-Nadine]

Considering I was raped tell me how I was to avoid it?Yvonne, I don't think you're going to get a reply. He has conveniently ignored factual information regarding the exhorbient number of children left in adoption agencies to be brought up by the State.

Like I said eariler, it would be wonderful if life could be some perfect fantasy, but rarely is anything so black and white. It must be nice to live in such a fantasy world.

:rant:

Cypher, I've read too many recent posts by you, on too many threads, not to say anything at this point. Condemn all you want if it makes you feel better about yourself. However, the choices of these women are none of your business, and you have no right to try to force your personal morals onto them. Not a single one of these women need to explain themselves to you or defend their actions to you. You have no idea what pain and horror these women ,may have lived through.

Stop having sex altogether? Yes, I'm sure these women's husbands would just love that. So tell me, when these marriages fall apart are you going to help feed, raise, and love these children?

I don't know who the hell you think you are, but until and unless you are ever faced with going through what these women have, you have no right to condemn anyone.

You seem to love throwing around the fact that you're 17 and raising twins on your own. DO you expect averyone to bow down to your generosity or something? Sorry, but I find nothing commendable in doing nothing but taking responsibility for your own actions. You are doing what you are supposed to do. That's all. It's a sad state of affairs when people think that is something special.

My mother was 15 when she got pregnant with me, and 17 when she got pregnant with my brother and sister (more twins). Altogether, there are 5 of us. She supported herself, got Welfare and Food Stamps when necessary, got her GED, put herself through college, took a job paying only $5 an hour, worked her ass off, and became Vice President of her company 8 years after graduating college. She is a remarkable woman, with the strength and perseverance of ten others. But, you know, she doesn't feel any need to throw it in others' faces. As she sees it, she did only what was necessary for her and her family. She raised us all to use our minds and think for ourselves, and make our own choices. She never once whined about the unfairness of the world. She never once whined about how badly she was treated by her parents or anyone else. If she had a problem with something, she worked until she could fix it.

You, however, seem to do nothing but whine about the unfairness of everything, and treat the people here, most of whom have been through what you're currently going through and then some, with a despicable amount of disresepect. You have the nerve to bash others' life choices, with no consideration for anyone, yet you expect no one to ever disagree with you or tell you that you're wrong. *...shakes head...* You may be a father, but you have yet to be a man.

[dr_zeus440]

heart beating, shmeart beating, i still maintain that theyre all dolphins, and can thus be aborted guilt-free.

cypher, what can i say. the point at which the embryo's pseudo-heart begins beating is an arbitrary point to choose, so if you're comfortable condemning people everywhere based upon your arbitrary judgement, well, have a nice life, duddo. can i ask why you pick the heart beat? why is it the heart beat that makes this little clump of cells a human? animals have beating hearts too, you know. you might as well just say "well, the moment the homo sapien in question has its first orgasm, it is a human, because the orgasm is the pinnacle of human existence" or "when the homo sapien smokes its first doobie, it is a human, because the doobie is the only truly human experience". the fact that you've chosen this point to define when humanity begins doesnt mean that humanity actually begins there. and why do you care so much what other people do with their bodies? get your hands out of other peoples uteruses mate, its disgusting. your jurisdiction ends at your own skin.

[Wolf O Volos]

Abortion... not a very good subject, any way you look at it. Too many arguments both ways, too many ways around morality... nobody having a definate answer... and too many people who think that just because they believe something strongly, it makes theirs the only right voice.

I, PERSONALLY, do not think abortion is a spiritually correct thing. Life is a gift. The ability to create life, in your image, is a power of the gods. Think on the ongoing debate about when life REALLY begins. Think of how many people are SOOO concerned about when the "soul" of the child enters... and then consider this: As soon as the sperm and egg join, the cells take a life of their own. they split, they multiply, they become their own entity, outside of the mother's cells. Whether there is a "soul" as granted by the gods, is inconsequential. YOU, and ANOTHER, have been given the gift of creation. And a new creation has begun forming within. To me, abortion makes a mockery of the gift bestowed upon all living creatures. And to go as far as differentiating between humans and say "dolphins"... you honestly think we humans are so much more "special" in the eyes of the Gods? If that is your belief, so be it, I just do not buy into it.

Second, in the book of Wolfie... or another Volosism as someone so quaintly put my rants, is this thing about it is a mothers body, and her right to do with it as she pleases. Excuse me, but have we all forgotten that it takes TWO people to create life? What has happened to the idea that a father is capable of caring for children on their own? I do not mean to sound like a lunatic, but come on. You carry it for 9 months. 9 months out of 100 years is a drop in the bucket. And if you are to be SOO attatched to this child that you could NEVER give it away to the father, how can you not be attatched enough to put ITS life in an important light and not destroy it? *IF* both parents think that an abortion is the needed course of action, although I would Never make the decision to end the responsibilities I have undertaken in being one half of the life that is on its way into this world by killing it... then, *IF* both parents are in agreement, then the weight of that decision falls on both of their shoulders.

In the instance of rape. There was NO consent... no commitment to be a part of bringing life into this world. Rape, in and of itself is a crime, and a force of another's power and rage upon another. It is not a special bond between two people who know full well, that they are engaging in an act that could result in pregnancy. Therefor, in the instance of rape, it would be my opinion that this really IS the time that it is the mother's choice. The father has no desire for children. the father was proabably never even concerned with the act of sex in the forst place, as rape is more about violent acting out... about power over others, about releasing evil... so he would have ZERO say in what happens. And SHOULD by all means rot in a jail cell, as far as I am concerned.

Just my random oppinions, and rants, and by no means the ONLY way to see the issues. Just one perspective to bother looking at.

[dueysutra1979]

We all see things differently relative to experiences and concepts, as Einstein would say Relativity. It is a fact that in Asia the results of the tsunami is one of the Earths means for destruction. Since the Earth has decided to abort (destroy) life in Asia, should we condemn the Earth for murder and attempt to leave this planet. Good luck making it to where ever you decide on going in outer space. If you condemn the earth for making these forces of balance, you condemn life itself.
Abortion can be attributed in Wicca as mother the destroyer, out of love she takes. This follows the karmic laws. Whether you are destroying a life out of love or some other reason is the big question. In a period of pregnancy a connection is made with you, your child, and the Great Spirit. You are in the cycle, after this birth it’s your child and the Great Spirit (destiny) deciding life. The decision in abortion is between you, your god, and your child. I would like to say that as a human it is our ignorance that keeps mankind questioning such natural events. Cats eat some of their young after birth as a form of abortion, and you do not see the feline society attacking cats for this. This tells me that the animals are closer to the Great Spirit. Man is not very close to knowing the meaning of life or god, since we question everything. With attributing the killing of something that lives on its own for the purposes of seeing it die is immoral (e.g. Cats eating young), means humans aren’t completely aware of the meaning of life and will never be.
In conclusion, knowing all this information leaves me feeling that abortion is acceptable, but man’s ignorance’s shadows the time line of deciding abortion. The third trimester belongs to the Great Spirit since it is a term, which a child and destiny can live together with out the mother. As for the other two, the power struggle remains where mother is always controled by the Great Spirit, and mother is in control over child. If man were to abolish all their ignorance’s than abortion after the third trimester maybe understandable. It is at the utmost importance that a person is in tune with their mind to partake in the super powers of destiny. These decisions affect your life forever. Unbiased Scientific psychological counseling should be a law before making such a complete life altering decision. I cannot stress on how fully you need to be aware of if you are aborting for love or something else. “If you love it let it go” can be interpreted as letting the pregnancy go ahead, or maybe let the life go from your body back to where it came. The only hard part is to know which one to decide. Pregnancy, life, and death are the greatest magics of all, be very careful and know your self.

[manicfairy19]

I hate abortion but not the people that have them. .... I was a failed abortion. My mom tried to kill me and my twin but only got one of us.... the abortionist messed up and only got my twin.

[dr_zeus440]

The ability to create life, in your image, is a power of the gods.
ok, so assuming that you believe that what you just said is correct, id remind you that:

a. humans have been reproducing resulting in children resembling the parents for centuries, therefore under your reasoning:

b. humans are gods, and therefore:

c. humans, being gods, can do as they wish and abort willy-nilly.

correct me if im wrong...but what im getting at here is that, logically, either youre wrong...or youre wrong. seems kind of...yeah.

[fahawk]

In the perfect world women and children would have
all the support they need- "emotionally", would have encouragement, money, a shoulder to lean ..but it doesnt happen that way.. and anyone who has had to make a choice..is being very "strong" in many ways!!!!