Embracing my inner "sinner"

[Darakash]

*WARNING*The following may come off a bit as random babblings, so bear with me, as it is flowing as I am typing :megaphone

I have been thinking a lot lately about the stereotypes, terms and "sins" that Pagans (as a group) are labeled by and accused of by many of the more extreme members of the Abrahamic faiths. And I have realized a few things:

1. I am proud of being a hedonist, idolator who puts "many Gods/Goddesses before Him (Jehova)."

2. Context and Social Filter (or in this case Religious Filter) are everything, ie., it is only an "insult" to be labeled something if you believe that "something" is in fact, *bad.* For instance, you may believe that, because it says so in the bible, that using Idols in one's worship is a heinous act, and thus, for you it is an ultimate insult to refer to me as an Idol worshipper (insert ye shall burn in the eternal fires here) but, since, my religion virtually *requires* that I use and work and worship with Idols, I can proudly say, "why YES I am, and you point would be???"

3. I think generally a good sized chunk of the Pagan community is a little too fearful about their reactions to some of these supposedly negative labels and accusations...How many times, (I think that Damien will back me up on this being an outspoken Satanist?) have you seen the screaming response of a Pagan to a Fundie: "WE ARE NOT SATANISTS" for example....well SOME of us ARE, in fact, and well, again "your point would be?" What I guess I am saying here, is that instead of trying to separate our selves from these labels, if we try to change the perception of what these *words* actually mean, as in what picture and understanding is brought to mind by their mere uterance, we might be more effective....

Things that occur to me as possible synonyms for some of these labels

Satanist: Realist, a believer in justice and the beauty in merely being human
Idolator: Faithful, a true dedicant to one's beliefs
Hedonist: Joyful, one who truly feels true happiness in existence
Sacrificer of ______: Thankful, one who makes offerings because s/he is moved to do so, not out of fear of requirement
Polytheist (as in the "sin"): Open-Minded, a person who sees the beauty of individuality on ones path

Maybe someday, when we move to that perfect world? I don't know exactly where I am going with this, but it just seems to me, that there are plenty of labels that people use as *insults* that are not, and I am finally getting to understand that...anybody know what I am talking about? The next time someone calls me or other pagan a "goddess worshipper," I think I will respond, "You mean you're NOT? Poor you!"

DK

[Morien]

I'll add my "random babblings" to this. Partially in response to yours.

Hm. I've always heard of "hedonist" as a person who takes enjoyment of pleasures to the extreme, beyond reason. Puts seeking pleasure above rationality at all times.

-shrug-

Then again, words and their meanings are colored by experiences, culture, and beliefs, which you mentoned. So to a Christian, Satanist means follower of Satan. And so for us, he (Satan) represents and is the utmost evil and the opposite of everything good and wholesome and worthwhile in life here.

And on the subject of Christians and Christianity...I understand that Pagans feel and are in the minority opinion here in the US (along with everyother religion and belief system not Christian and every Christian who doesn't hold a certain view). But for goodness sake, must you constantly insult the belief and it's adherants? Must you always break out the heavy armor and teh big guns whenever a random Christian mentions his/her belief and tries to share it with you? Who the heck is forcing you to accept it? In reality, NO SIDE has absolute concrete 100% undisputable truth since it's all based on faith. Reason can be used to prove and disprove. They have just as much a right to share what they believe with you as you do with them. Accordingly, you have just as much right to refuse to hear them as they do to you. But by closing yourself to them and their ideas, you're doing exactly what you are accusing them of -and- you're losing the opportunity to share your point of view. Instead of being defensive about everything, listen. Not to say you won't learn something, but y'might. And the more knowledge/experience you gain=good. Makes conversations more interesting. ^_^ You can't control how they react and act, but by showing yourself willing to at least listen and discuss who knows what could happen?

Maybe I'm being naieve, and maybe it's unfair for me to expect everyone to do so, but I try to understand other ways. I really do. I make an effort to learn when I can find or encounter someone who believes differently than I do. I try. I don't insult, belittle, or [insert other form of rudeness here] them. I mightn't agree with what you have to say, but I'll learn it just the same. And though I can see your pov regarding Christians and their view...it makes me wonder exactly how you can even stand to have a Christian visit let alone post on these boards.

Not all Christians are horrible witch hunters/killers and intolerant of others and other faiths or think all those not holding a particular view are less than human. Just because I hold a certain belief does not make me inherantly a certain way. It's *not* who I am, but only a part of it. And even then, Christianity is many different things to many different Christians. I believe in only one God, yes, but I respect your right to believe otherwise. I believe that we are to love eachother and that we are to make peace with those we live with as far as possible (that's a paraphrase of a bible verse, I'll have to find it). And for me that means being tolerant of others and being open to learning new things (doesn't mean I have to believe everything I hear). Heck, my mom keeps worrying I *am* "turning into a Pagan" because of that among other things...

[Morning Star]

I think a great many pagans still hold to Christian moralities and to Christian concepts of humanity. This doesn't surprise me as much as it disappoints me, but there is NO pagan morality. Basically, what you have are people accepting the beliefs of their culture, and can you blame them? Most people will accept the mores and ideals of their friends, of the television shows they watch and the newspaper articles they read. The prevailing moralities and metaethical ideologies in this country are still Abrahamic in origin, but this is nothing more than Slave Morality and Herd Instinct. Just because you are a pagan you are not necessarily free from either of these. Just because you become a pagan doesn't mean that you can conquer your fear, overcome guilt and shame or secure enough self-control to enjoy your lusts and passions safely. We should understand how hard it is to brake away from the slave morality and Christian influences that make up Western Culture, and instead of looking down on people because they buy into the majority opinion, we should blame ourselves, because we need to set the example, that there is another way to live.

[Wicker Man]

I think a great many pagans still hold to Christian moralities and to Christian concepts of humanity. This doesn't surprise me as much as it disappoints me, but there is NO pagan morality. Basically, what you have are people accepting the beliefs of their culture, and can you blame them? Most people will accept the mores and ideals of their friends, of the television shows they watch and the newspaper articles they read. The prevailing moralities and metaethical ideologies in this country are still Abrahamic in origin, but this is nothing more than Slave Morality and Herd Instinct. Just because you are a pagan you are not necessarily free from either of these. Just because you become a pagan doesn't mean that you can conquer your fear, overcome guilt and shame or secure enough self-control to enjoy your lusts and passions safely. We should understand how hard it is to brake away from the slave morality and Christian influences that make up Western Culture, and instead of looking down on people because they buy into the majority opinion, we should blame ourselves, because we need to set the example, that there is another way to live.


Morning Star - I think you just became my new hero! _handclapp

[Darakash]

I'll add my "random babblings" to this. Partially in response to yours.
Cool, I enjoy a good response babble :fpartyhat

Hm. I've always heard of "hedonist" as a person who takes enjoyment of pleasures to the extreme, beyond reason. Puts seeking pleasure above rationality at all times.
Well, that was kinda part of my point, the actually dictionary definition says nothing about this "going too far" definition that we as a society have accepted as the meaning of the word...from dictionary.com:
he·don·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hdn-zm)
n.
1. Pursuit of or devotion to pleasure, especially to the pleasures of the senses.
2. Philosophy. The ethical doctrine holding that only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.
3. Psychology. The doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.

I personally see no negative connotations in any of the above definitions and would say that these play a part in my life, which is why I am proud to admit to being a hedonist.

Then again, words and their meanings are colored by experiences, culture, and beliefs, which you mentoned. So to a Christian, Satanist means follower of Satan. And so for us, he (Satan) represents and is the utmost evil and the opposite of everything good and wholesome and worthwhile in life here.
Yes, I can understand this, of course, and, frankly until I had read posts in various places by Satanists, I assumed that they all worshipped the Satan of the Bible and did so just to show their anti-Christian, anti-societal views...I had no idea that there were other types of Satanists. I can certainly understand how Christians and others who follow the bible would react to this word in such a way...

And on the subject of Christians and Christianity...I understand that Pagans feel and are in the minority opinion here in the US (along with everyother religion and belief system not Christian and every Christian who doesn't hold a certain view). But for goodness sake, must you constantly insult the belief and it's adherants? Must you always break out the heavy armor and teh big guns whenever a random Christian mentions his/her belief and tries to share it with you? Who the heck is forcing you to accept it? In reality, NO SIDE has absolute concrete 100% undisputable truth since it's all based on faith. Reason can be used to prove and disprove. They have just as much a right to share what they believe with you as you do with them. Accordingly, you have just as much right to refuse to hear them as they do to you. But by closing yourself to them and their ideas, you're doing exactly what you are accusing them of -and- you're losing the opportunity to share your point of view. Instead of being defensive about everything, listen. Not to say you won't learn something, but y'might. And the more knowledge/experience you gain=good. Makes conversations more interesting. ^_^ You can't control how they react and act, but by showing yourself willing to at least listen and discuss who knows what could happen?
First, I must say, if this part of your "babble" is a reaction to anything I said in mine, I am sorry if this is the impression you got from my post! I was in no way trying to insult anyone's beliefs, merely to embrace my own, even the parts that are frowned upon by the more fundamentalist Christians that I know and also hear in various media outlets. In terms of being respectful or listening to Christians and allowing them to speak or share with me, I have always done so. My mother is born-again, many of my neighbors are evangelist in their dealings with folk, when they Say "God bless you," or "i will pray for you" etc. I say "thank you." I also know and accept that when these folks offer what I perceive as pity or concern and say things like "I only wish you could find the peace and love (etc) of Jesus in your life" that they truly feel this way and only want to pass on what they receive from their religion; it is the underlying assumption that this is the ONLY way that one can know inner peace that I have a hard time with.

In terms of learning something or having a closed mind, well, I have studied Christianity, read the bible and don't find that it is not for me. I also find that while I am expected to be open to their message, if I express mine it very infrequently met with a "to each their own" kind of reaction. I am glad that there are many Christians, as evidenced by your presence here and your post, who in fact do feel this way, but unfortunately this is not often my experience in "real" life.

Thanks for responding and sharing your view of this stuff...I certainly don't think of all (or even many) christians as people who wish to burn me at the stake, and again, if that is how my post seemed, I should maybe think about revising my writing style, cause it's not what I meant...
Dk

[Darakash]

I think a great many pagans still hold to Christian moralities and to Christian concepts of humanity. This doesn't surprise me as much as it disappoints me, but there is NO pagan morality. Basically, what you have are people accepting the beliefs of their culture, and can you blame them? Most people will accept the mores and ideals of their friends, of the television shows they watch and the newspaper articles they read. The prevailing moralities and metaethical ideologies in this country are still Abrahamic in origin, but this is nothing more than Slave Morality and Herd Instinct. Just because you are a pagan you are not necessarily free from either of these. Just because you become a pagan doesn't mean that you can conquer your fear, overcome guilt and shame or secure enough self-control to enjoy your lusts and passions safely.
I totally agree, and I guess what I was trying to say in my post, is that I have recently come to understand that I had been slow to free myself from many of these things and am beginning to see that and attempting to break free of these fears, guilts, etc.

We should understand how hard it is to brake away from the slave morality and Christian influences that make up Western Culture, and instead of looking down on people because they buy into the majority opinion, we should blame ourselves, because we need to set the example, that there is another way to live.
I hope it did not appear that I was looking down on anyone, I was trying to say that I think if rather than trying to deny anything even remotely alarming or "scary" to the non-pagans of the world in order to make us more "acceptable," it might be a good idea to (as we live by example) shed some light and new perspective on these negatively perceived labels. What I mean, for example, is that it is a fact that there are Pagans who do blood sacrifice, there are Pagans who do hexes and curses, there are Pagans who are Satanists, there are Pagans who practice ritual sex or other "sinful" sexual behaviour, there are Pagans who believe that they can and do imbue an idol with the energy/essense of a God/dess, and on and on, and I think they have every right to be proud of these practices and it would be nice if we could shed some light into these "dark" corners, and start changing the fearful response to these ideas, rather than going along with the denial of their existence within the Pagan community.

DK

[Morien]

DK- :) Danke. It's just that everywhere I've been (save on a Christian set of msg boards and even *then* there was some of it) Christian posters who mention they are get jumped and flamed to hell (no pun intended) for saying anything that remotely touches on what they believe. Meanwhile, all other belief systems from Paganism various forms to Buddhism get nothin. Meaning, they don't get ridiculed and instead get praises upon praises heaped on them and comments and questions framed in a respectfully inquisitive form. I just...got tired of seeing the double standard. Heh...

I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with Christianity and Christians, though. :(

Morning Star: Why do you call believing in Christianity a "slave morality" or say I'm "buying into the majority opinon"? Is it really *that* hard to believe that a person chooses what they put their faith in because it's right for them and they believe? DK just said he'd looked at Christianity, but it wasn't for him. Why, because it's right for me, does that mean I'm buying into the majority?

[Darakash]

DK- :) Danke. It's just that everywhere I've been (save on a Christian set of msg boards and even *then* there was some of it) Christian posters who mention they are get jumped and flamed to hell (no pun intended) for saying anything that remotely touches on what they believe. Meanwhile, all other belief systems from Paganism various forms to Buddhism get nothin. Meaning, they don't get ridiculed and instead get praises upon praises heaped on them and comments and questions framed in a respectfully inquisitive form. I just...got tired of seeing the double standard. Heh...

Sheesh! I can certainly understand being annoyed by that reaction! I wonder if the nasty replies were made in/under the assumption that the Christian posters were attempting to evangelize/convert rather than just share??? Who knows, I am not saying this is actually the case, but just a guess as to why people may react that way--stereotypes and assumptions certainly work both ways. Also, on an aside, I think you would really enjoy (in addition to mysticwicks of course!) The Cauldron (http://www.ecauldron.com) message board, they have a relatively large population of Christians for a pagan board and are very open to interfaith discussion. Those folks are also VERY well-informed about various religions.

Oh, and one more aside, I am a female, not that I was offended by your referring to me as "he", but just figured I'd let ya know! :D

[Loopaleigh]

I think what Darkash is trying to express here (and Darkash, please correct me if I'm wrong) is that she is starting to realize that there is more than one way to look at life and the world...more than one "worldview", so to speak.

The mainstream fundie Christian worldview (and I AM NOT generalizing ALL christians here....I know not all Christians think this way, but it is the predominate attitude) is very different from the Pagan worldview. Alot of things we are told growing up in a mostly Christian worldview dominated culture don't always mesh with a Pagans way of seeing things.

For example....the fundie Christian attitude towards sex and sex education are very different from the way most Pagans view sex and sexuality. Christians believe in no sex before marriage, and that it is morally wrong to have sex before marriage. The idea that people (esp. girls) who have sex before marriage are somehow "dirty" or "tramps" or not "good" girls is a fundie Christian worldview that saturates Western culture.

One the other hand...

Pagans are generaly ok with sex before marriage, as long as it is consintinual and all persons are taking responsibilty for their behavior, but it is not viewed by Pagans as morally wrong or "sinful". Sex is viewed as natural and a gift of the Goddess, not as something dirty or a "temptation" to overcome.

This is just one example, but the worldviews are different on just about everything, from the environment to the personality of the Divine.

Again, I realize that NOT ALL Christians think "Fundie", that there are liberal Christians out there, but fundie thinking has shaped the Western worldview.

[Morien]

DK: Gack! I'm sorry. ^_^;;

[Morning Star]

Morning Star: Why do you call believing in Christianity a "slave morality" or say I'm "buying into the majority opinon"? Is it really *that* hard to believe that a person chooses what they put their faith in because it's right for them and they believe? DK just said he'd looked at Christianity, but it wasn't for him. Why, because it's right for me, does that mean I'm buying into the majority?

First, I would like to say that the Abrahamic Religions make up like 90% or more of the world's population - their cultures have created almost everything we see in the World. Many people find great happiness and inner peace by joining these religions and these religions have done a lot of good over the years. People are neither "stupid" or "bad" for following an Abrahamic Path, that is merely the language with which they have learned to express their spiritual truth. However, this does not make them good and it does not mean that they have not also adopted a dangerous morality. OK, see, I have to be very careful here, because I don't want to get myself banned for being intolerant. So I will state this as objectively as I can.

There is nothing "wrong" with Christianity being "right" for you, but in the same way there is nothing wrong with my belief that the Christian morality is an evil one. A Slave Morality is a morality created in order to keep the people happily bound to their station in life, as common people. These moralities teach you to be peaceful, to turn the other cheek, to give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and so forth. The Slave Morality teaches you to sacrifice yourself for others. It teaches you that you are evil and that you need to be saved from your sin. You need salvation. You need redemption. Do not think...have faith. Do not trust the knowledge of Men, trust the Bible. The Christian morality is no different than the Jewish one before it - Jesus failed to free anyone but himself.

However, according to Christian Dogma, people like me are the enemy - that is good. I do not mind being any enemy of them.

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Some Reasons Why I Reject the Abrahamic Paths:

You need Salvation and Redemption. Interesting, what kind of a person needs this? How do you go about achieving this? With works? No. By believing the same way every other Christian believes - for any reason? No. - by virtue of faith. Now, you are instructed to basically do what the government tells you to do and to fall in line. If someone hurts you, turn the other cheek. Don't cause any trouble. Don't misbehave. Also, Don't do anything the Church doesn't like (anything out of the Norm) or you can find yourself killed(in the old days)

If you believe that you human nature is evil, then I am evil because I follow my instincts. If you believe that putting yourself first is sin, then I am sinful. I believe in pleasure and passion and knowledge and money and freedom of thought - not as the roots of evil, but as the roots of everything good.

I believe that makes me free. I shun fear, insecurity and conformity. I shun them. I do not create something else to help me deal with them. I do not create an afterlife so that I can be free of my fear of death. I just do not fear death. I believe that makes me free. I shun the worship of a God that created the heavens and the earth, that created man but condemns many of us to Hell because IT IS IN THEIR NATURE TO SIN IN THE FIRST PLACE. Bah! That is no God. That is a Devil. I worship nature, I worship life, I worship that spark I find in myself and that same spark I find in the eyes of others! I find God in the little things. He does not condemn me for sin. He doesn't get involved in my affairs. In so far as I exist and in so far as I am alive, divinity is present in my life. I do not need the Divine to save me from sin.

Herd Instinct, religious Dogma, servants to God, "take up your cross", "turn the other cheek", Do not trust in the knowledge of man, Wisdom begins with the Fear of God, Money is the root of evil, salvation, redemption, servatutde. This is a dogma for and of slaves.

Why not: God is. I am. We all are. The meaning of life is "To Be".

I embrace my inner sinner, I embrace my own natural self.