Questions for the Satanists

[Verthandi]

I've noticed a couple of you on the boards, so I was wondering if you could clarify this for me:

Satanism stems from the Christian church, yes? Are you monotheistic, polytheistic, deistic or whatever the word is for two gods? In another thread, one of you said that your god is Satan and your goddess is Lilith. Aren't both of these beings demons? If you do believe in demons, do you also believe in angels? What about djinn?

I mean no disrespect, I am truly curious.

[elfmage]

Satanism doesn't stem from the Christian church; it stems from the writings of the Bible, as far as theistic Satanism goes. One could probably even argue that non-theistic Satanism is even older, and that the archetypes have simply gained a new name, and a more "propogandised" identity.

As far as I know (please don't kill me, I am not a Satanist, I have just read a reasonable bit about it), there are tw main school of though in the Satanist path;

- Theistic, the people who actually believe in Satan as a deity, and worship him as such, although their form of worship "does not involve subjugation."

- Non-theistic, the people who see Satan as an archetype for personal freedom and liberation, and he is appreciated as an archetype, but not as an actual being. Ie, non-theistic Satanists are aetheists.

Hope that helped a bit. Try asking Muireannach and DamienDeville; Muireannach is a non-theistic Satanist (again, I think, don't kill!), and DamienDeville is a "Traditional," or theistic Satanist.

Edit: I don't think it really matters whether of not something is originally a deity, but if it is venerated in that manner, then it effectively becomes one.

With demons, well I guess most of the people who believe in them are theistic to begin with, so I don't see any reason why you would not believe in angels too.

Sorry I did not do a very good job explaining that. Hopefully a Satanist will turn up soon and help you out!

[Wicker Man]

I think you must've seen a link to Diane Vera's Church of Azazel, which focuses worship on Azazel (Satan) as a God and Lillith as Goddess. The COA is a Theistic Satanic church and is not affiliated with the Church of Satan started by Anton LaVey, which is really more of a humanistic/atheistic based religion. Vera's writings are perhaps some of the best sources I've seen online as far Theistic Satanism goes.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/index.html

Other Satanists seemed to have just swapped God and the Devil and practice a sort of reverse Christianity, while still others have adopted that Satan and his demons are aliens watching over us, like something out of "Chariots of the Gods". Those seem to be a minority, as the maority of Satanists I know are of the Laveyian train of thought and see Satan as a symbol of rebellion towards a society dominated by Christianity and other monotheistic religions.

[ghostrideryyz]

christianity was at first a rebellion against society, also. satanism and christianity seem the same to me, two sides of one coin. :evilway:

[Toby Stimpson]

*giggles* oh me, oh my...Lilith, a Demon? What would she say to that...*looks about*...theres a subtle diference between a bastardized Goddess and a Demon...sure she tried to kill Adam, sure she brewed 'progeny of evil' but hey, they did have a form of tabloids back then ;). Verthandi, the Djinn ARE demons dear...they may be called differently, but they are Islamic demons. Pretty cool too...anyways, back to Satanism, I just thought i'd giggle for a sec. Namaste

Tobias

[QUEEN OF THE DAMNED]

Hi. I'm an eclectic satanist. I have studied Anton LaVey's teachings. We do not worship any deities. In short (i dont have much time) we believe that we are our own god, that we create our own good and evil.

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

...So the name 'Satanism' is really just for the shock value?

[AdNoctum]

...So the name 'Satanism' is really just for the shock value?

Yes and no. I think LaVey certainly had shock value in mind when he decided to call his ideas "Satanism." But it's a valid name because Satan is the being and/or concerpt that we Satanists emulate.

[QUEEN OF THE DAMNED]

Is Satanism just Humanism?
"Humanism shares materialistic views and ethical methodology with the Satanist and we have the same opinions on the emptiness of religion. Satanism is religious whereas Humanism is not due to the religious symbolism, ceremony, ritualistic and dogmatic aspects of Satanism. Satanism is also Left Hand Path, Humanism is not. For these reasons, although Satanists are not strictly "religious" in most senses of the word, Satanism is clearly a religion. Although the differences in metaphysics are so extremely opposed to what is classically considered 'religious' that some take to calling Satanism the unreligion, which is a term I find appealing!"

I got the above quote from http://www.dpjs.co.uk/modern.html#REL2

RE: the above post 'is satanism a name for shock value'

So I guess I'm a Non-thiestic Eclectic Satanist. :bad:

If you google Satanism and include LaVey in there then you can find further explanation.

However there was a thread made about FAQ about Satanists that Muireannach made on MW
Click here:
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=51375&highlight=Satanists

That has all the answers you are looking for too.

Hope I've been helpful _twohorns_

[arctic splash]

What parts of the Bible are particularly important to Satanists?

BTW, I think any talk of Satanism this time of year is going to make me think (for a brief moment) people here are worshipping Santa.

[Verthandi]

BTW, I think any talk of Satanism this time of year is going to make me think (for a brief moment) people here are worshipping Santa.
Allow me to hijack the conversation for a moment: dyslexic satanists sell their souls to Santa. ;)

[MorningDove030202]

Allow me to hijack the conversation for a moment: dyslexic satanists sell their souls to Santa. ;)


Santa is realy a bunch of Pagan gods and myths rolled into one with a litltle St. Nick to make is Christian.....


I have a point here...... Why use "Satan" as one's symbolism, when you can use "Pan" who is just as hedonistic, with out all that evil stuff, and confusing association with the Christian religion? Honestly, i'd rather avoid any and all biblical association and go a more Pagan rout than claim "Satanism". I feel that it is about shock value, and to me that's just imature. If it's not about shock value, then why not chainge Satan to Pan?

Dove

[Threase]

Santa is realy a bunch of Pagan gods and myths rolled into one with a litltle St. Nick to make is Christian.....


I have a point here...... Why use "Satan" as one's symbolism, when you can use "Pan" who is just as hedonistic, with out all that evil stuff, and confusing association with the Christian religion? Honestly, i'd rather avoid any and all biblical association and go a more Pagan rout than claim "Satanism". I feel that it is about shock value, and to me that's just imature. If it's not about shock value, then why not chainge Satan to Pan?

Dove

So are you basically trying to say that anyone who calls themselves Satanists are immature?

[Wicker Man]

I'm still a relatively new Satanist, so I'm not the best person to ask, but I can answer for MY own theistic beliefs (I wouldn't fall under the LaVeyian atheistic category) and not the Satanic community at large. I view Satan as a dark diety, but not in the same sense that Christians do, who obviously see him as an evil entity. Since I started out as a Pagan, I can see where you're coming from as far as choosing a Pagan God like Pan, but Pan doesn't represent or embody the same things to me that Satan does. In Satan, I see a god that inspires me to become more than I am, to challenge everything handed down to me and who moves me down a path of becoming my own god. Pan doesn't offer that - none of the Pagan gods do.

There are people who adopt Satanism just to shock people, but I would question their true spiritual motives. I, for one, don't wear black garb, point down pentagrams, or anything else in order to call attention to my spirituality. That comes from within. If you saw me on the street you would'nt have any idea that I was a Satanist.

[MorningDove030202]

So are you basically trying to say that anyone who calls themselves Satanists are immature?

Doing something out of shock value is imature, and I can't see how calling one's self a Satanist could be anything but shock value, however I'm open to the slim possiblity that maybe I'm wrong and there might be more to using the lable "Satanist" than shock value, but it would take a whole lot of convincing.

Dove

[magick186]

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but I have a question: I read somewhere that Satanists have like some kind of rules or "pillars of Faith" that they must abide by and that one of them was that if you tell someone to leave you alone and they don't that it means that you have to "destroy" them. Is that true? If so, when they say "destroy" do they mean kill or just beat the crap out of or what? :yikes:

[AdNoctum]

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but I have a question: I read somewhere that Satanists have like some kind of rules or "pillars of Faith" that they must abide by and that one of them was that if you tell someone to leave you alone and they don't that it means that you have to "destroy" them. Is that true? If so, when they say "destroy" do they mean kill or just beat the crap out of or what? :yikes:

I think you're thinking of the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth. (http://www.satanism101.com/rules.html) These are "rules" of general personal conduct laid out by Anton LaVey. I want to make it clear that we do not all adhere to LaVey's idea of Satanism, and we are not obligated to adhere to his laws. Some of what LaVey wrote was good, but some of it wasn't, in my opinion.

Let's examine the rule you appear to be referring to:

XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Notice that "bother no one" is listed first. What is emphasized is one's own personal conduct. The burden is on you to not bother others first. However, should someone start something with you...

Ask him to stop.

You give the person bothering you the opportunity to voluntarily cease their behavior by making it clear that you do not welcome it.

If he does not stop, destroy him.

There are many meanings to the word "destroy."

de·stroy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-stroi)
v. de·stroyed, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys
v. tr.

1. To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.
2. To tear down or break up; demolish. See Synonyms at ruin.
3. To do away with; put an end to: “In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness” (George Bernard Shaw).
4. To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
5. To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
6. To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

Whether or not "destroy" should be taken to mean "kill" depends on the circumstances. If someone is "bothering" you with a weapon, then you have every right to use force to stop them. If someone is "bothering" you verbally, then using force is probably unnecessary overkill. Definitions 3 and 6 would apply here, however one might go about doing that in their individual circumstance, be it removing yourself from the area, threatening to call the cops, etc.

Did that help? I really hope so. :huh:

[Threase]

Doing something out of shock value is imature, and I can't see how calling one's self a Satanist could be anything but shock value, however I'm open to the slim possiblity that maybe I'm wrong and there might be more to using the lable "Satanist" than shock value, but it would take a whole lot of convincing.

Dove

Most Satanists (true Satanists anyways) don't just come out and say "I'm a Satanist, what's it to you?" to most people. Like Wicker Man, a lot of Satanists don't even wear pentagrams. They call themselves Satanist because that is the name that was originally given to their specific belief system. Telling them to change the name of their belief system is like telling a Wiccan to call themselves something different, again for shock value, because many people know what Wicca is but not what it stands for. And yes, I realize that "Satanism is more controversial" and whatnot, but if you take a look at a LOT of the articals against witches that do wrong these days, Wicca is thrown in there as well.

[QUEEN OF THE DAMNED]

Most Satanists (true Satanists anyways) don't just come out and say "I'm a Satanist, what's it to you?" to most people. Like Wicker Man, a lot of Satanists don't even wear pentagrams. They call themselves Satanist because that is the name that was originally given to their specific belief system. Telling them to change the name of their belief system is like telling a Wiccan to call themselves something different, again for shock value, because many people know what Wicca is but not what it stands for. And yes, I realize that "Satanism is more controversial" and whatnot, but if you take a look at a LOT of the articals against witches that do wrong these days, Wicca is thrown in there as well.


Nicely said Threase, thank you :)

As an Eclectic Satanist I do not necessarily folow all rules inferred by Anton Zsander LaVey, but I keep them as guidelines and find a strong common bond with what Anton LaVey taught.

[Morning Star]

Doing something out of shock value is imature, and I can't see how calling one's self a Satanist could be anything but shock value, however I'm open to the slim possiblity that maybe I'm wrong and there might be more to using the lable "Satanist" than shock value, but it would take a whole lot of convincing.

Most people don't talk about the fact that they are satanists because they honestly don't care if it shocks you or not. In fact, if you follow a more "right-hand" path, most satanists don't want anything to do with you. Out in the world, the person who "looks" like a satanist, is most likely not a satanist. The insecurity that causes the desire to "shock" others goes completely against satanic dogma...insecurity isn't to be tolerated. At least...from what I know of it.

[arctic splash]

Santa is realy a bunch of Pagan gods and myths rolled into one with a litltle St. Nick to make is Christian.....

Oooh, does anybody know the song Santa Claus is Pagan Too by Emerald Rose? :D

Oh, Santa Claus is Pagan too, just like all the rest
And if you are a merry witch he'll bring you all the best
So get that star up on the roof, and bake those cookies, too
For Christmas-time is really Yule, and Santa's Pagan too!

He's got that Buddha belly and his top's the Holly King
You dressed him in that British coat, the cap's a Nordic thing
You took the horns right off his head and stuck them on his deer
But he still flies high like Jupiter with a belly-full of beer

[MorningDove030202]

Oooh, does anybody know the song Santa Claus is Pagan Too by Emerald Rose? :D

Oh, Santa Claus is Pagan too, just like all the rest
And if you are a merry witch he'll bring you all the best
So get that star up on the roof, and bake those cookies, too
For Christmas-time is really Yule, and Santa's Pagan too!

He's got that Buddha belly and his top's the Holly King
You dressed him in that British coat, the cap's a Nordic thing
You took the horns right off his head and stuck them on his deer
But he still flies high like Jupiter with a belly-full of beer

OH God! I LOVE that song! I drive my husband nuts with it at Yule! it's odd, some pagan friends keep the tree and toss Santa, but I say we keep them both. Infact, I just bought the Whimsical Tarot deck and Santa is the Emporer card!

Dove

[Rain Gnosis]

Just wanted to take a second to agree with Morning Star on this bit;

Most people don't talk about the fact that they are satanists because they honestly don't care if it shocks you or not.

Now, responding to someone else - I'm surprised shocking people is "immature". Are witches and Wiccans and Pagans "immature" because some fundies are shocked about their beliefs?

If a fundie is shocked, is it really because you're "immature", or because their view is limited by the assumptions they've made and their inability to stretch their limits?

[MorningDove030202]

Just wanted to take a second to agree with Morning Star on this bit;



Now, responding to someone else - I'm surprised shocking people is "immature". Are witches and Wiccans and Pagans "immature" because some fundies are shocked about their beliefs?

If a fundie is shocked, is it really because you're "immature", or because their view is limited by the assumptions they've made and their inability to stretch their limits?

Satan is the "Bad guy god" of Christianity and Islam, and Jeudism (?). By using Satan as one's symbolism efectivly one is mocking the religions that are the foundation of the Satan mythology. Satan is a god of evil, temptation, pain, and suffering as defined by the bible. Expecting Christians to "strech their limts" to include toleration of Satanism is rediculous.

Wicca isn't mockary of any other religion. When people are shocked by it, it's usualy because of a misunderstanding, and false information, usualy having to do with Wicca being confused with Satanism.

Therefore the "shock" that the public has about Wicca, being that it's based on missinformation, can be avoided with proper education. Although there are alot of missunderstandings about the many forms of Satanism, you can never educate the evilness out of "Satan". The bible will forever define Satan to the general public, no matter how hard some "Satanists" try to chainge that definition.

If your concept of "Satan" doesn't include evil, then you are chainging the biblical definition of Satan, and thus not realy Satanist. If you cling to the name "Satanist" even though your concept of "Satan" isn't based on bibilical mythology then you must be doing it to shock people.

There are better names for the worship of or symbolism for Hedonism, if you are looking for the general public to tollerate you.

Dove

[Rain Gnosis]

The bible will forever define Satan to the general public, no matter how hard some "Satanists" try to chainge that definition.

And the Bible will always say "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". I guess no matter how hard some "Wiccans" try to change that definition it doesn't matter, since witchcraft is devil worship?

The witch's goddess is just an illusion of Satan to fundies. The only difference is the guys who wrote the Bible didn't say "the Wiccan goddess" because the term "Wicca" didn't exist then, and to them Satan is "the witches goddess". You could just as easily say

"If you do not see the witches' goddess as an illusion of Satan, you are going against the Bible's view of witchcraft - therefore you can't be a witch!!!"

or

"If you do not see a witch as an evil poisoner, you are going against the Bible's view of witchcraft - therefore you can't be a witch!!!"

It is clear, I hope, that the Bible's terms are not definitive. Especially considering that the Bible itself has been released in so many different versions - if one terminology were correct, they wouldn't offer new versions of the Bible, would they?

There are better names for the worship of or symbolism for Hedonism, if you are looking for the general public to tollerate you.

No Satanist here has told you they want tolerance. Why assume they are looking for it?

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

So what do Satanists say about people who follow paths with morals and an emphasis on working for the greater good? Do they discount the work these people do 'in the name of God' for AIDS awareness and international relief as having their priorities mixed up? Do they disagree with raising one's consciousness and acting on this higher awareness?

[Rain Gnosis]

So what do Satanists say about people who follow paths with morals and an emphasis on working for the greater good? Do they discount the work these people do 'in the name of God' for AIDS awareness and international relief as having their priorities mixed up? Do they disagree with raising one's consciousness and acting on this higher awareness?

Depends on the Satanist, AnFoghlaiBanrion. Just like not all Pagans do work for AIDS awareness, or environmentalism, nor are all Pagans vegan, etc. etc. There aren't any Satanic rules for or against things such as that.

Personally I'm active in animal rights, feminist issues, and environmental issues.

[QUEEN OF THE DAMNED]

Satan is the "Bad guy god" of Christianity and Islam, and Jeudism (?). By using Satan as one's symbolism efectivly one is mocking the religions that are the foundation of the Satan mythology. Satan is a god of evil, temptation, pain, and suffering as defined by the bible. Expecting Christians to "strech their limts" to include toleration of Satanism is rediculous.

Wicca isn't mockary of any other religion. When people are shocked by it, it's usualy because of a misunderstanding, and false information, usualy having to do with Wicca being confused with Satanism.

Therefore the "shock" that the public has about Wicca, being that it's based on missinformation, can be avoided with proper education. Although there are alot of missunderstandings about the many forms of Satanism, you can never educate the evilness out of "Satan". The bible will forever define Satan to the general public, no matter how hard some "Satanists" try to chainge that definition.

If your concept of "Satan" doesn't include evil, then you are chainging the biblical definition of Satan, and thus not realy Satanist. If you cling to the name "Satanist" even though your concept of "Satan" isn't based on bibilical mythology then you must be doing it to shock people.

There are better names for the worship of or symbolism for Hedonism, if you are looking for the general public to tollerate you.

Dove

What you say about Wicca being confused with satanism is the same as LaVeyan Satanism being confused with the mythical satanists that kill babies etc. It is all about misconception, thus I will try to explain:

When you say that Satan is the Bad Guy of those above religions, did you stop to think that when you are a Satanist you dont believe in the other religions. We should all be tolerant of other people's beliefs, but it's the same as when you are an outright Pagan - you dont believe in Christ do you? Therefore Satanists wouldn't believe in the Christian perception of Satan. As I've said before I am an Eclectic Satanist so I dont follow the rules exactly, but I believe in the principles, statements etc.

Welcome to the official website of the Church of Satan. Founded on April 30, 1966 c.e. by Anton Szandor LaVey, we are the first above-ground organization in history openly dedicated to the acceptance of Man’s true nature—that of a carnal beast, living in a cosmos which is permeated and motivated by the Dark Force which we call Satan. Over the course of time, Man has called this Force by many names, and it has been reviled by those whose very nature causes them to be separate from this fountainhead of existence.- http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html

Satanism is not about the Christian god/archangel Satan.
It is about embracing your natural animal instincts instead of supressing them. It is about being in control of your own life. About taking control instead of praying for someone else to.
This is why many people say that Satanism is the opposite of Christianity, and then many people get confused and think that they mean that Satanist's worship the dark god Satan. But LaVeyan Satanists believe that there is no Satan/God/Budda, any kind of God, we are Athiests.

Therefore, as we dont believe in God or Satan in the form of Christians, we are not using it for shock value, because we dont believe what Christians believe, so we are hardly trying to shock them, just to live our own lives our way. The same as Wiccans, I mean any bible belted Christian will profess that witches worship the christian version of Satan. But it is merely a misconception. The Satan in Satanism is not the Christian Satan because we do not believe in him, The Satan in Satanism is not a god or a person or even a real thing, it is a term for our belief system.

Please be tolerant though. Our term Satan isn't based on any biblical mythology because we dont believe in biblical mythology. Does that make sense.

If the general public do not wish to tolerate us that is fine, but then our religion teaches us that we should not tolerate you if that is the case. But lucky I'm Eclectic, and I choose to tolerate everyone, to try to educate them so they in turn can be tolerant.

I do not believe in Christianity at all, I do not believe in Hinduism - but that does not mean that I do not tolerate it, and those that believe in it. Let's face it, if we all believed in the same deity/way of life, none of us would be here on this site discussing this would we? :halohead:

My point in short: Satanists do not believe in the bible or define things by the bible's definition, therefore we are not governed by the bible's rules or defintions, and do not expect to be held to the bible's definition of Satan.

[elfmage]

Therefore, as we dont believe in God or Satan in the form of Christians, we are not using it for shock value, because we dont believe what Christians believe, so we are hardly trying to shock them, just to live our own lives our way. The same as Wiccans, I mean any bible belted Christian will profess that witches worship the christian version of Satan. But it is merely a misconception. The Satan in Satanism is not the Christian Satan because we do not believe in him, The Satan in Satanism is not a god or a person or even a real thing, it is a term for our belief system.



I agree that there are better names that could be chosen in order to allow Satanists to "blend in better" with society, and be less "shocking," however that is part of the point, isn't it? Non-theistic Satanism is about self-liberation, and not being, as Marilyn Manson put it, "a slave to a God that doesn't exist."

Why should they have to conform simply because the name of their philosophy offends and/or frightens others? And you could claim that they are justifying the Christian religion by using "its" mythology, but all religions have borrowed something from one another at some point in time.


My point in short: Satanists do not believe in the bible or define things by the bible's definition, therefore we are not governed by the bible's rules or defintions, and do not expect to be held to the bible's definition of Satan.

I have to disagree with that. Where did the archetype of Satan come from, if not the Bible? ;) I think perhaps what you meant was that you do not follow the "theistic" principles contained within the Bible?


Please be tolerant though. Our term Satan isn't based on any biblical mythology because we dont believe in biblical mythology. Does that make sense.

Once again, I disagree. True, Lucifer was actually a Roman God, but the Satan that Satanists view as their archetype does stem from the Christian Bible.


When you say that Satan is the Bad Guy of those above religions, did you stop to think that when you are a Satanist you dont believe in the other religions. We should all be tolerant of other people's beliefs, but it's the same as when you are an outright Pagan - you dont believe in Christ do you? Therefore Satanists wouldn't believe in the Christian perception of Satan. As I've said before I am an Eclectic Satanist so I dont follow the rules exactly, but I believe in the principles, statements etc.

But when it is stated that Satan is the "Bad Guy" of those other religions, that statement has to be considered from the perspective of that religion. It is like this; Wiccans can claim that they do not worship the Devil all they want, but the Church is never going to agree, because, to them, anyone who does not worship their God must worship the Christian Devil. It all depends on the point of view.


Satanism is not about the Christian god/archangel Satan.
It is about embracing your natural animal instincts instead of supressing them. It is about being in control of your own life. About taking control instead of praying for someone else to.
This is why many people say that Satanism is the opposite of Christianity, and then many people get confused and think that they mean that Satanist's worship the dark god Satan. But LaVeyan Satanists believe that there is no Satan/God/Budda, any kind of God, we are Athiests.

Once again, from the point of view of Christianity, yes, Satanists are the opposite of Christianity, along with aetheists in general, Buddhists, Hindus and Pagans. You have to appreciate that, as the Christian Bible states that Christianity is "the one, the right, and the only way," to them, any religion that is not their own [i]is[/] the enemy, and is the opposite of Christianity.

And I think probably a larger part is that the name of the philosophy is "Satanism." Christianity is one of the most widely recognised mythos (what with it being shoved down our throat.... :lol: ), and unless people have taken the time to actually research the path, they are automatically going to assume that you worship Satan.

[QUEEN OF THE DAMNED]

Nice post elfmage, I see your points for and against my post. However I remain in my position on this topic.

[MorningDove030202]

No Satanist here has told you they want tolerance. Why assume they are looking for it?

If they don't want tollerance then they must be looking to shock people.


You are right, Wicca and the Wiccan God and Goddess arn't in the bible, because we don't want anything to do with the bible.

Satan is from the bible (and the Koran) and by using the name of that "charachter" (to keep it in terms of Atheism) is to still always be assoicated with the Bible, no matter how you keep trying to explaine it to us. The only way to divorce yourself from the Bible is to quit using the name of the Satan charachter. If you realy don't want any part of Christianity, then you got to give up the "Satan" name. It's a matter of historical orgins, you can take "Satan" out of the bible, give him new conotations expect people to not assocate you with the Biblical definition of Satan. In fact if you are taking Satan out of the the bible and giving Satan completely different and new conotations, they you arn't realy accuratly using Satan symbolicly anyway, to me Pan would be a more aproprate "God name" to use. And if you are chaingeing Satan to fit your own definition while keeping the name Satan, they the only reason to do so would be for shock value.

Dove

[Threase]

If they don't want tollerance then they must be looking to shock people.


You are right, Wicca and the Wiccan God and Goddess arn't in the bible, because we don't want anything to do with the bible.

Satan is from the bible (and the Koran) and by using the name of that "charachter" (to keep it in terms of Atheism) is to still always be assoicated with the Bible, no matter how you keep trying to explaine it to us. The only way to divorce yourself from the Bible is to quit using the name of the Satan charachter. If you realy don't want any part of Christianity, then you got to give up the "Satan" name. It's a matter of historical orgins, you can take "Satan" out of the bible, give him new conotations expect people to not assocate you with the Biblical definition of Satan. In fact if you are taking Satan out of the the bible and giving Satan completely different and new conotations, they you arn't realy accuratly using Satan symbolicly anyway, to me Pan would be a more aproprate "God name" to use. And if you are chaingeing Satan to fit your own definition while keeping the name Satan, they the only reason to do so would be for shock value.

Dove

You realize of course that some believe Christians took the form of the Pagan horned God and turned that form into Satan/Lucifer/the Devil? People will argue that Christians took it from us first.

[MorningDove030202]

You realize of course that some believe Christians took the form of the Pagan horned God and turned that form into Satan/Lucifer/the Devil? People will argue that Christians took it from us first.

Yes, I realize this, however, Wiccans don't worship Satan as one of our horned lords becausein the bible Satan is never ever described as having horns. The manny various Pagan Horned Gods, and Satan are different "Charachters". Any similarities are later propaganda on the part of Christianity.

:viking: Dove :reindeer:

[bshore]

MorningDove and Threase:

I don't know if my butting in here will be appreciated, but I found this explanation of why the Satanists use the name they do, and thought it might be helpful:

from satanism101.com

Inherently, the Satanic archetype is far more diverse than the limited Christian interpretation -- the name/word is notably pre-Christian: from the Hebrew, meaning "adversary", "opposer" or "one who questions" (and the Jewish 'Satan' differs sharply from the Christian one in many ways). Even its etymology is traced back through sources previous to its Hebrew version, from Shaitan (Persian) all the way back to Set (Egyptian). Satanism, to one degree or another, embraces additional cultural and religious ideas, concepts and imagery such as those of ancient Rome and ancient Greece, Zoroasterism, Asatru, Aztec, Hindu and a multitude of others. We also find the Satanic persona emanating from some or all of the literary works of Milton, Nietzsche, Mencken, Maugham, Twain, Rand, Jung, and many more.

I think that Levay felt that Satan was the guy who was punished for questioning authority. I am not a Satanist, nor have I ever actively studied it (except for reading the occational website), so I'm probably not qualified to settle any debates, but I thought this might give a different perspective on your question.

Blessings!

[MorningDove030202]

MorningDove and Threase:

I don't know if my butting in here will be appreciated, but I found this explanation of why the Satanists use the name they do, and thought it might be helpful:

I think that Levay felt that Satan was the guy who was punished for questioning authority. I am not a Satanist, nor have I ever actively studied it (except for reading the occational website), so I'm probably not qualified to settle any debates, but I thought this might give a different perspective on your question.

Blessings!

Thanks for the info, I always apreciate more facts! It still doesn't answere the issue of .... "Why use "Satan" as the name for your philosophy if you arn't doing it for the shock value?" Satan will always be a "loaded word"..... why use it?

I might be a Wiccan Witch, but I don't tell people I'm a Witch, I use Wiccan. Honestly I don't think there ever were groups of magick using pagans that called themselves "Witch", until modern times. There were magick users, but none called themselves Witches, and none were Pagan. (Source: Triumph of the Moon R. Hutton) "Witch" historicaly speaking always had a bad conotation, I would be happy to disconnect my practice of Wicca with that word, if I could, espeicaly since I don't believe in any authentic historical pagan groups that self identified as "Witches".

Dove

[Morning Star]

Thanks for the info, I always apreciate more facts! It still doesn't answere the issue of .... "Why use "Satan" as the name for your philosophy if you arn't doing it for the shock value?" Satan will always be a "loaded word"..... why use it?


Actually, I thought it answered the question perfectly. Satan is used because he is a ScapeGoat for sin. He is used because he rejects the idealized and wholly unnatural idea of the Abrahamic God. He is used because, who beside Satan better characterizes independent thought and the complete acceptance and glorification of human nature?

[bshore]

So, MorningDove, what would answer the question? I see several responses, but you don't think any of them answer you, so I'm at a loss. As far as I see it, Satanists embody the ideals they think Satan personifies. If this isn't a good enough answer, than what would be? I know this may sound a little snippy, but I really am interested in your answer. Or are you just trying to say that the shock value is so great to the mostly Christian society, that any other reason doesn't compare?

As far as wether or not to call yourself a witch is a personal choice. I don't like the word either because there's no way to convince people that you are a "good" witch when the term never really meant anything good. For those who do use it, I have the utmost respect because you are very brave trying to change cultural perceptions and stand up to bias.

Ultimatly, I don't like labels. No matter how you define them, there will always be someone who doesn't agree, or has heard some different definition. When people ask me about my beliefs, I tell them it's complicated, and unless they wat a long explanation and discussion, I don't usually answer that question. Either way, I also wanted to say I like the debate that this thread has started. I also always wondered why Satanists labeled themselves as such when they don't actually believe in the Christian Satan. I guess you learn something new every day.

[QUEEN OF THE DAMNED]

I think we should all agree to disagree on this topic. Satanists are not going to change their name for Christians or for anyone, it would be going against our principles and everything we believe in. Christians are obviously not going to accept us....we dont care.

[Morning Star]

I think we should all agree to disagree on this topic. Satanists are not going to change their name for Christians or for anyone, it would be going against our principles and everything we believe in. Christians are obviously not going to accept us....we dont care.

;) well said.

[MorningDove030202]

Actually, I thought it answered the question perfectly. Satan is used because he is a ScapeGoat for sin. He is used because he rejects the idealized and wholly unnatural idea of the Abrahamic God. He is used because, who beside Satan better characterizes independent thought and the complete acceptance and glorification of human nature?


But Atheist Satanists don't belive in Sin so why would they need a scapegoat or a charachter to symbolize one?

Wicca rejects the Abrahamic God too. So does Secular Humanism. Some how using a biblical charachter to reject the bible is kind of an oxymoron to me.

Glorification of human nature......... What is "Human Nature"? How is that defined by Satanists? Personaly there parts of human society that don't need glorification at alll. I think Wicca is very accepting of human nature, and ok with hedonism as long as it's not at another person's expense. (ie responsible hedonism), but the minute any philosophy says that pleasure is ok even if it hurts someone else, that's not cool. I mean who wants to glorify rape?

Anyway, I stick with my theory that Satanists do it for the shock value, probably because it gives them pleasure, and all pleasure is moral..... Right?

Dove

[AdNoctum]

I think Wicca is very accepting of human nature, and ok with hedonism as long as it's not at another person's expense. (ie responsible hedonism), but the minute any philosophy says that pleasure is ok even if it hurts someone else, that's not cool. I mean who wants to glorify rape?

Who said anything about pleasure at the expense of others being okay?

[MorningDove030202]

Who said anything about pleasure at the expense of others being okay?


Well, human nature is to be hedonistic right? And satanism glorifies human nature?

Dove

[Rain Gnosis]

If they don't want tollerance then they must be looking to shock people.

Sure they are. I think I explained that in one of the threads on Satanism in here.

You are right, Wicca and the Wiccan God and Goddess arn't in the bible, because we don't want anything to do with the bible.

If you realy don't want any part of Christianity, then you got to give up the "Satan" name.

And what have you to say to those who use the term "witch"?

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

And what have you to say to those who use the term "witch"?

That's a great question that no one I've met has been able to give me a satisfactory answer to.

[Rain Gnosis]

Glorification of human nature......... What is "Human Nature"? How is that defined by Satanists?

Read http://www.satanism101.com/ 's essentials section.

that's not cool. I mean who wants to glorify rape?

I hope you're not implying Satanism advocates rape?

Satanic Rule V - Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

[Rain Gnosis]

That's a great question that no one I've met have been able to give me a satisfactory answer to.

Thank you, AnFoghlaiBanrion. I thought I was the only one!

[DamienDeville]

This has been answered quite nicley by several people.Wow such intelegent people.
All I have to add is that FROM THE BIBLES View all religions and all gods originated from Satan,so it doesnt matter if you claim to be Wiccan,Hindu,Buddhist,Asatru or Satanist,your still worshiping their Satan..And no matter how much you argue the point,their view is correct and yours is wrong.Because to them there is No God but God and you shall have no other gods before him,whether thats Satan,Gaea,Mother Earth,Cernunnos,Isis,Kwan Yin,Kali,Pela,Jupiter or Mars etc etc etc etc.If your god isnt Jehovah,God Almighty and his son Jesus Christ or Allah then your going to hell and thats the end of it,well in their view.
So why should any of us whether we are pagan,wiccan,satanist etc care if we are accpeted by them or not.I for one do not.
As for witch,it doesnt matter if you call yourself one or not,if your practicing it your still a witch and a worshiper of their satan to them.
If we as pagans want to appease them,then we will all have to become Christian,because all of us are heathens and devil worshipers not matter what we call ourselves.

[MorningDove030202]

Sure they are. I think I explained that in one of the threads on Satanism in here.


And what have you to say to those who use the term "witch"?


I love to give up the name witch because an inaccorate decription of Wicca. Wicca is Pagan religion that's magick positive. Historicaly speaking there have never been any groups of pagans using magick that called themselves Witches. There were magick users, sure, but they called themselves Charmers or Healers and often used Christian symbolizm and biblical quote in their practice of magick. Witch was always a negative term. Since there are no historical groups who claimed to be "the pagan magic users who self indentified as Witches" I feel using the name "Witch" is misleading at the most, has not connection with any real history, and was posibly used by Gardner for the "Schock value" at the worst. The Witch in Wicca is part of the creation Myth of Wicca, nothing more.

[MorningDove030202]

This has been answered quite nicley by several people.Wow such intelegent people.
All I have to add is that FROM THE BIBLES View all religions and all gods originated from Satan,so it doesnt matter if you claim to be Wiccan,Hindu,Buddhist,Asatru or Satanist,your still worshiping their Satan..And no matter how much you argue the point,their view is correct and yours is wrong.Because to them there is No God but God and you shall have no other gods before him,whether thats Satan,Gaea,Mother Earth,Cernunnos,Isis,Kwan Yin,Kali,Pela,Jupiter or Mars etc etc etc etc.If your god isnt Jehovah,God Almighty and his son Jesus Christ or Allah then your going to hell and thats the end of it,well in their view.
So why should any of us whether we are pagan,wiccan,satanist etc care if we are accpeted by them or not.I for one do not.
As for witch,it doesnt matter if you call yourself one or not,if your practicing it your still a witch and a worshiper of their satan to them.
If we as pagans want to appease them,then we will all have to become Christian,because all of us are heathens and devil worshipers not matter what we call ourselves.


I don't realy see it that way. I feell that I want to divorce my spritutuality from Christianity totaly, which is why I don't use any of their charachters in my parctice. So what if *some* of them still think that anyone not christian is a Satanist. That's their problem, not mine.

Dove

[Threase]

I don't realy see it that way. I feell that I want to divorce my spritutuality from Christianity totaly, which is why I don't use any of their charachters in my parctice. So what if *some* of them still think that anyone not christian is a Satanist. That's their problem, not mine.

Dove

Okay, so that's your opinion. Which you're allowed to have. That doesn't mean it's the only opinion, or that because you believe it, it must be true for everyone. Just as you wouldn't call yourself a witch for other reasons, they themselves must have a reason in their minds as to why they are called Satanists. It's a part of who they are, and I'm sure no amount of bad publicity will make them change that.

[MorningDove030202]

No, I don't exect people to chainge their lable because of me, but I don't have to chainge my opinion either. Satanism is about shock value, and pleasure at all costs hedonism, and the glorification of human nature. I don't see anything there deserving respect in that philosophy.

Dove

[Rain Gnosis]

Do you have something against humans and their nature? I'm surprised. What's wrong with liking who you are? Satanism also embodies self-knowledge, growth, vital existence, showing respect to those who deserve it, not harming little children or animals, avoiding stupidity and self deceit, etc. And you can't find anything to respect there?

[Romani Vixen]

I have to disagree with that. Where did the archetype of Satan come from, if not the Bible? ;) I think perhaps what you meant was that you do not follow the "theistic" principles contained within the Bible?


Once again, I disagree. True, Lucifer was actually a Roman God, but the Satan that Satanists view as their archetype does stem from the Christian Bible.

The modern Christian view of Satan didn't come from the bible... it developed slowly over time. There wasn't even a Hell originally.

The History Channel Rocks!!!

[Darakash]

Do you have something against humans and their nature? I'm surprised. What's wrong with liking who you are? Satanism also embodies self-knowledge, growth, vital existence, showing respect to those who deserve it, not harming little children or animals, avoiding stupidity and self deceit, etc. And you can't find anything to respect there?
OH I am soooo gonna give you a karma poke for this one!:fpoke:
All I have to say, (since i have made tooo many comments on this topic in two other threads today,) is Yeah, what she said! Just brilliant

DK

[Zophael]

Everybody here seems to have a little bit of it right. Satanism is varied like any religion.

For the Church of Satan, Satan is just an abstract concept of being independent. LaVey was reacting against Christianity though and it shows. Various splinter groups (including Temple of Set) took the basics of this Satanism a step further and dropped the use of the term Satan to distance themselves from any association with Christianity.

There are those who believe in Satan as part of the overall Judeo-Christian structure and have simply chosen to side with the 'devil' for various reasons. Divided yet again, some side with Satan because they see God as a tyrant. Then there are the ones that give Satanism a really bad name and are in to be totally selfish and evil. They are a tiny minority of fruitcakes.

Only a small number believe in a Satan as a being without there being God.

[erlynn]

I might be a Wiccan Witch, but I don't tell people I'm a Witch, I use Wiccan. Honestly I don't think there ever were groups of magick using pagans that called themselves "Witch", until modern times. There were magick users, but none called themselves Witches, and none were Pagan. (Source: Triumph of the Moon R. Hutton) "Witch" historicaly speaking always had a bad conotation, I would be happy to disconnect my practice of Wicca with that word, if I could, espeicaly since I don't believe in any authentic historical pagan groups that self identified as "Witches".

It seems here that you are concerned with the way Satanists label themselves (i.e. by using Satan in the name). And that by using this label they are just opening themselves up for trouble (just as you see using "witch" opens yourself up for trouble). Labels are just like symbols though...depending on the context in which you use them gives their meaning or negative/positive connotation. Just as the swastika was a positive symbol before Nazi Germany used it.

And by you seeing that the name "Satan" is christian or used for shock value gives the name that power for your. But there are many situations where groups took names and gave them different meanings. For instance, in the past the term "gay" was used negatively to describe someone with a homosexual preference. However, the gays decided to remove the power of that name by taking themselves, see what I mean? So if "Satan" and "witch" have negative connotations, we as Satanists or witches can take those names and remove the negative power by using them ourselves. So instead of being angry and upset when someone calls you a witch, you can be "Yeah I am, and?"....I hope this makes sense.

[Rain Gnosis]

Another thought -

Satanism is about shock value, and pleasure at all costs hedonism, and the glorification of human nature.

This is the equivalent of saying "Wicca is about orgies, tying people up and beating them, and dancing naked in public". Yes, some Wiccans participate in the great rite, binding and scourging, and skyclad rituals - that doesn't, however, negate Wicca is a valid and meaningful religion.

If I said "Wicca isn't worthy of respect" because I don't like binding and scourging or the great rite, I'd get flamed right off the forum.

[VroomBroom]

.........So what if *some* of them still think that anyone not christian is a Satanist. That's their problem, not mine.

Dove Thats right, it is their problem. Trying to explain that your wiccan religion has nothing to do with 'devil worship' to most of 'them' is futile effort at best. Your just not going to change 'their' minds. And its clear that no matter how many times some tries to explain satanism to you, your not going to change your opinion of them at all.

And pagans of any tenant shouldn't have to try to explain themsleves to anyone.....right?

You dont' have to like it, or even understand it for that matter. They are called Santanists, period. Maybe LeVey did choose that name jsut for shock value. Who knows and why does it really matter. That is what its called. And if Satanists use the symbol of Baphomet as their deity (I dont' personally know), that symbol is just loaded with the same 'pagan' symolisms that wiccans use.

And just on a general deffinition of pagan (Not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam) I think Satanists fall into that catagory and are pagans.

[Suzy-Anne]

...So the name 'Satanism' is really just for the shock value?

Though this quote has been discussed already I feel like adding my two bits. (: I feel that the name 'Satanism' is partially for shock-value. To some it may seem like having an all-American restaurant with a German name translated into Japanese. However, I feel that the term Satan is a philosophical term. That 'God' is used as a metaphor for good and 'SAtanism' is all that is not. When I say that, I mean to say that 'Satan' is the term for all that is not holy or under God's reign. Thus I think that LaVey chose to use the term Satan in his path. Partially for shock, and partially for that which is not under 'God's constant watch. Though LaVeyan Satanism is completely atheistic (other than acknowledging one's self as a god) I think that through enough study of the bible you can see that such terms can be used as metaphors for what is right and 'wrong'. Sorry if that made no sense at all. ):

[Marchosias]

No, I don't exect people to chainge their lable because of me, but I don't have to chainge my opinion either. Satanism is about shock value, and pleasure at all costs hedonism, and the glorification of human nature. I don't see anything there deserving respect in that philosophy.

Dove

Let's re-word that a bit, shall we?

Satanism is all about personal strength and worth, to recognize and embrace the merits of the self, and realizing human nature itself as the path to enlightenment.

I am neither concerned nor miffed at your finding nothing respectworthy in the doctrine of Satanism. I am puzzled, however.

Many/most religions hammer followers about rising above. Satanism teaches us that there is nothing to rise above.

[Darakash]

Let's re-word that a bit, shall we?

Satanism is all about personal strength and worth, to recognize and embrace the merits of the self, and realizing human nature itself as the path to enlightenment.


Isn't it amazing how we can find our own thoughts in each other's posts, even when we have different paths?? Check this thread of mine from almost a month ago: my embracing inner sinner post (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=77009&page=1) I am not saying I feel exactly the same way, but just that we need to, as you said "re-word that a bit"! :yourock: