Ritual Animal Sacrifice

[KaimelarFeylove]

In my political science class we where talking abotu a court case dealing with Santarians(sp?) and animals sacrifice....it just made me think, what are the opinions of the people her on ritual animal sacrifice..

plus i hadn't made a poll in awhile.. :)

I say, if thats what your belifes calls for then so be it, i'm not to say. I just would like to think that any ritual killing is done as humanely and quickly as possible As for myself, i doubt i could ever bring myself to kill an animal purposly, no matter what i was doing

[DragonsChest]

I am all for the usage of animals as my food source, so I'm not against killing animals per se. But I don't think the killing of an animal for only it's life force is a worthy thing. I would have to say it's wrong, IMO.

[semi]

In Santeria only priests, not just general practitioners, are allowed to use blood offerings and it isn't used as frequently as many people believe. The animals are killed far more humanely than they are on factory farms and the carcass is almost always used as a meal. The belief behind the practice is that by using the animals' life in a sacred ritual you make the animals' spirit sacred and it evolves to a higher spiritual plane.

I don't do it, never will, no need to.

[KaimelarFeylove]

In Santeria only priests, not just general practitioners, are allowed to use blood offerings and it isn't used as frequently as many people believe. The animals are killed far more humanely than they are on factory farms and the carcass is almost always used as a meal. The belief behind the practice is that by using the animals' life in a sacred ritual you make the animals' spirit sacred and it evolves to a higher spiritual plane.

I don't do it, never will, no need to.


oh i know they dont just kill kill kill.. the deal with my class had to do with a city trying to stop them opening a church by banning animal sacrifice. I respect the Santeria religon.. i was just asking about animal sacrifice for religion in general

[audi]

i dont sacrafice animals. i do eat meat on occasion, but im looking into stopping that as well.

[IndigoMoon]

well, I do eat meat, but I also voted against animal sacrifice. I just can't get into backing that kind of religious belief.

[LadyAutumnCat]

I'm a vegetarian, so now way no how could I justify killing anything for religion! In my opinion, they are your beliefs why force/enforce them on another being, be they human or non-human.

[LittleRhiannon]

I might. I haven't ever before, and I don't know if I'd actually able to kill the animal myself. I would at least want to make sure I had been instructed on how to do it right...but as to offering some chicken, fish, beef, ect. that I got at the store? Sure. I don't know if thats the same thing though.

I prefer to use liquid offerings in most cases.

[Tsuchimaru]

well, I do eat meat, but I also voted against animal sacrifice. I just can't get into backing that kind of religious belief.

Same here. Meat for survival or fur for much-needed clothing is fine by me, but not for rituals.

[charmedkisses1]

What you don't get is that pagans *started* animal sacrifices, wearing fur, etc.





I still don't support it.

[Phoenix Snowrose]

Animals have numerous uses...sacrifice, is definetly NOT one of them. They are friends, teachers, givers, guides, and soulmates. Would you kill your friend? I don't think so.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I have absolutely no problem with it, and if I were ever in a position to do so, then yes I would perform such a sacrifice. A portion of the meat would be offered to the gods and the rest would be eaten. If I'm going to eat it anyhow, what does it matter if I kill it myself and offer some of it up to my gods?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I am semi-vegetarian, I eat only unprocessed meats and prefer white meat and fish over red meat, mostly for health reasons. I could never bring myself to sacrifice an animal either.. ><

[VroomBroom]

I don't do it myself, but I also don't condem those that do. If its a valid part of their religion, then so be it. If I need blood energy for a ritual, I can prick my own finger for that need.

[DragonsChest]

I have absolutely no problem with it, and if I were ever in a position to do so, then yes I would perform such a sacrifice. A portion of the meat would be offered to the gods and the rest would be eaten. If I'm going to eat it anyhow, what does it matter if I kill it myself and offer some of it up to my gods?


There was no mention of eating the sacrifice in the original post, so I was going off the premise that the animal was to be sacrificed, and then discarded. To kill and then waste, I can't agree with that.

If you are going to actually consume it afterwards, then it is really no different than going hunting and eating whatever you are lucky enough to kill. So in this last case, I would agree with you.

[lil_suzie]

LOL... we raise a turkey every year to "sacrifice" for our thanksgiving meal!
For a week or so before, we bring him a serving of our meals, as he eats we talk
to him like he's a person, and tell him how thankful we are for what we have, and
how glad we are that he has come to live with us... when we slaughter him, we ask his
spirit to return to the heavens and to share what he has learned. Then we tie
his tailfeathers in our hair as we sit down to eat him. lol... it's
kinda weird now that I think about it.

[Pandoras]

I'm Cuban and I live in Little Havana in Miami. The Santeria case that went all the way to the Supreme Court began right here (in a city less than 5 miles away from my house called Hialeah). There's a botanica on every other block here. I know Santeros. I know babalaos. I work in Downtown where every morning they have to clear all the dead chickens off the courthouse steps. There are a lot of misconceptions about Santeria, but claims that animal sacrifice is not a part of it, or that it doesn't have to be, or that the practice is dying out, or that the carcass is usually eaten, or that only babalaos perform trabajos that involve sacrifices are incorrect as well. And whether these animals are killed humanely is a matter of opinion.

I'm not a vegetarian, by any means. I admit it. I love a good steak and leather shoes. Hey, I'm being honest here. It's one thing if I'm going to eat the meat later, but no, I don't kill animals in ritual purely for their blood or spirit or whatever. I don't think it's necessary nor required by my gods.

I voted I don't do it, but what others so is their business. I don't agree with it and wouldn't do it myself, but I believe that in a religious context, the practice should remain legal.

[Amethyst Rose]

What VB said. :)

[sunset_winds]

I just couldn't bring myself to take the life of anything or anyone ritualisticly.. but for survival, yes I could kill an animal.

[KaimelarFeylove]

I'm Cuban and I live in Little Havana in Miami. The Santeria case that went all the way to the Supreme Court began right here (in a city less than 5 miles away from my house called Hialeah).


Yeah, the Hialeah case was teh one i was talking about.. i just couldn;t remeber how to spell it.. :)


I'd liek to say thanks to all of you who have responded so far.. i enjoy seeing what diffrent people think about situations, no matter if i agree with them or not. :)

this os one of the few places i know that we can talk about things without yelling at each other that everyone else is wrong.. but i guess thats what MW is all about..

Still looking forward to the new opinions

[Romani Vixen]

I eat meat. That animal has already been sacrificed so that I can eat it. If I ever go hunting, it will be a spiritual journey, and the animal will die with as much ease as I can provide, as well as every part of him getting used.

I don't agree particularly with sacrifice just for the energy. If the life is taken, the whole body should be used.

I also think about sacrificing plants. That's still a life. Perhaps composting... **contemplates**

[Gracecat]

I think it was Yasmine that said it... Even butchering an animal is considered a ritual of sorts, not magic but a ritual all the same. There's method to it. I try not to think about this too much because I wouldn't blink twice over the loss of a chicken but I'd be highly upset over the ritualized murder of a cat or dog. What gives me the right to consider one life force is more important than another?

[AugustFirst]

It's not right at all. Sick and disgusting.

[lil_suzie]

It's not right at all. Sick and disgusting.
Why?

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

There was no mention of eating the sacrifice in the original post, so I was going off the premise that the animal was to be sacrificed, and then discarded. To kill and then waste, I can't agree with that.

If you are going to actually consume it afterwards, then it is really no different than going hunting and eating whatever you are lucky enough to kill. So in this last case, I would agree with you.

Wasting of the meat and other useful parts of the animal is not implicit in the word sacrifice. So while she didn't say anything about using the animal, she also didn't specify not using it after the sacrifice.

And for me there would be part of it that wasn't consumed, as a portion of it would be for the gods alone. I will not eat something I have given to the gods.

[DragonsChest]

Never having done anything of the sort, or participated in any kind of ritual that would require sacrificing an animal, I am not up to speed on what it all entails. Thanks for enlightening me.

I still have to go with the "no, won't ever do it and don't think it should be done" camp, though. Tis my personal opinion.

[coyoger]

Aside from insects, I could never kill an animal. But if others feel they need to... whatever. As long as the animal is treated with respect and the body is disposed of in a faithful manner. (And I don't have to be there...)

[number_the_dead]

I voted "I don't but what other people do is there business." Not that killing animals isn't sad (heck I feel bad when I hit a bunny on the highway) but I am not going to say that people who do it are bad. I mean what people do in there own religion is there own business and I don't think people who are not part of or don't understand those religions should try to dictate to those people what they should or should not do. It's their business for goodness sake!!!



Hmmmm sorry if that sounded a little rude I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just get a little worked up when it comes to religious freedom.

[HorseCrow]

I feel it is wrong. I cannot see any point in taking life to honor life.

[6th Angel]

I couldn´t do it and couldn´t watch or let anyone else do this either :grrrrr: . I love animals!!! :loveduv:

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

In Santeria only priests, not just general practitioners, are allowed to use blood offerings and it isn't used as frequently as many people believe. The animals are killed far more humanely than they are on factory farms and the carcass is almost always used as a meal. The belief behind the practice is that by using the animals' life in a sacred ritual you make the animals' spirit sacred and it evolves to a higher spiritual plane.

One of my circle members, and dear friends, practices Santeria. She was adopted into a family and taught the rituals, ect when she was younger. She has a strong relationship with Elegua. While it is not always often that He requests a sacrifice from her, it does happen. In terms of sacrifice using animals, He prefers roosters or small goats.

When using animals as sacrificial objects, the blood is collected and offered to the Orisha. Chickens are the most common animal used. The sacrifice is believed to please the Orisha, and to bring good luck, purification and forgiveness of sins among other things.

As she explained it to me, the blood of the animal could be considered “food” for the Orisha. Just as we need food to keep our energy up, to keep us alive and being productive, so do the Orisha. The easiest was to explain it would be that the Orisha feeds on the “essence” of the blood.

Have you ever left food (milk, ect) out for a faerie? If you have, you should be familiar with this concept as the fae do not physically ingest the food, but feed on the essence of it.

While I cannot understand the nature of this particular behavior, I know that for her it is a sacred act and that should be remembered first and foremost. Far be it from me to tell her it is wrong. It is her spirituality and her relationship with the Orishas.

While it does not have a place within my own path, I have no less respect for her because it does within hers. That's how it works for us.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[Wolfscout1]

I have not , most likely wouldn't sacrifice unless i felt it a requirement from the Divine.
I do hunt and always pray for the gift and soul of the one offered.
I have called for this gift as well.
there is an understanding that is possible and many people are so separate from the natural law that they'll never get it anyhows.

[Mau]

If you sacrifice an animal for blood ritual....as long as ya eat it, it's ok by me. I don't believe in wasting :)

[semi]

Pandoras, in my community the tradtion of animal sacrifice is not dying out, but changing. It isn't necessary to use animals. Everything works just fine without them. And the carcasses are almost always eaten by the practitioners of the ritual or given to someone else to eat. And based on what I've been taught, only a priest, not necessarily a baba, but only a priest may do the killing, not just any yaguo. These things are correct based on my personal experince. Perhaps not based on yours. But based on what I know, old school ways are evolving into new ways of doing things.

RhiannonSolana, I also have a very strong relationship with Eshu. When he asked me for blood I told him no, I couldn't do that. We renegotiated and he was pleased. We still have an extremely strong relationship.

I also have great respect for the practioners of my path, regardless of whether we agree on the details. Things are different everywhere. To each his/her own.

[Xentor]

Admin mode

Moved to Magic and Rituals.

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

RhiannonSolana, I also have a very strong relationship with Eshu. When he asked me for blood I told him no, I couldn't do that. We renegotiated and he was pleased. We still have an extremely strong relationship.

I also have great respect for the practioners of my path, regardless of whether we agree on the details. Things are different everywhere. To each his/her own.

Every person's relationship with the divine is different, and basically that was the point that I wanted to stress. I am glad that you and Eshu were able to find a common ground and your relationship has not suffered.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[Draco Celtae]

I personaly do not sacrifice animals, BUT I do understand and appretiate the wieght of such an action.
When it was explained to me by priest of voodoun that I met at a gathering here, the reasons made perfect sense...and the rigid rules set up (at least in that faith) took away the "barbaric" image i had viewed sacrifice with earlier.
He told all who were at the gathering, that if you want to sacrifice an animal (in thier teachings)...traditionaly you must raise that animal, and learn to depend on it. He used an example of sacrificing a chicken...
You raise a flock of chickens. You nuture them. When you need meat, you dont buy it...you slaughter one of your chickens, and therefore you become reliant on these chickens as your only source of meat. THEN, after a year of this, you can sacrifice one...because for a year, you have relied on those chickens for sustainence...and to kill one would indeed be sacrificing something of import...not just a whim.
:uzi:_catroll_

[semi]

Rhiannon, that's the point I was trying to stress, too. You just did it better than I did. I sounded kind of like an ass, while you made sense.

[cartweel]

You know what? Reading through this thread is making me reevaluate my own eating practices.

When I first started reading I was ready to answer: "No, I would never sacrifice an animal." Then, as I read further, people's eating habits (vegetarian, meat-eater, etc.) began to come up and I thought "Hey, If I don't want to kill an animal for almost any reason, why do I eat meat?"

I'm not saying that I've become an overnight vegetarian- I don't even know if that could be possible. Just that, well, maybe I'll have a little more respect for the chicken that I bite into next time!

hm...

[CaitrionaMorgaine]

Rhiannon, that's the point I was trying to stress, too. You just did it better than I did. I sounded kind of like an ass, while you made sense.

Thanks! You sounded fine, I just wanted to clarify--the internet is a tricky medium to communicate in.

Avalon's Blessings, ~Rhiannon

[AnFoghlaiBanrion]

I'm not saying that I've become an overnight vegetarian- I don't even know if that could be possible. Just that, well, maybe I'll have a little more respect for the chicken that I bite into next time!

hm...

=) if you decide to resign being carnivorous, welcome to the dark side of the plant eaters.

[Wolf O Volos]

I am a beliver in trying my best to not judge the path another has set before them. If it is as they choose, then so be it. But personally, I feel wasting another living creatures life, it is just wrong. Spiritually, mentally, in more ways than I can fathom... To openly disrespect the life within any living creature, it seems somewhat disrespectful to the Gods that gave that creature life.

Just *my* personal oppinion.

[Grey]

*shakes head* If there is the need I WILL do it. An interesting variation of this topic can be found... here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=63985.
If the need is great enough, I will take that animals life in a heartbeat. But such needs are rare, and I have no interest in slaying an animal just for the hell of it. I do eat meat, and Im not likely to give it up... I have cravings for that form of warm protein, and so I feel its only natural for me to do so. But Ive dated women that were vegetarians, and Im not about to bring food into your house that you dont want to eat, nor force you to eat anything in mine, eh?
Truthfully I see no disrespect, I can only hope that my own death will be as meaningful. Dying to save lives, to heal my friends, or protect my family is as much as I can ask. And I believe that I could ask that of any of my family members to do the same.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I am a beliver in trying my best to not judge the path another has set before them. If it is as they choose, then so be it. But personally, I feel wasting another living creatures life, it is just wrong. Spiritually, mentally, in more ways than I can fathom... To openly disrespect the life within any living creature, it seems somewhat disrespectful to the Gods that gave that creature life.

Just *my* personal oppinion.

How exactly is sacrificing an animal a waste? That's what I don't understand. So many people assume that when an animal is sacrificed it is just discarded as so much rubbish, this is not the case in how my ancestors (both Celtic-speaking and Native American) sacrificed, nor would it be the case were the need to arise for me to particpate in a sacrifice (I wouldn't do it myself because I do not have the necessary skills to do so properly and humanely). Whether the blood, entrails or a portion of the meat to be offered to the gods, the rest would be put to use. The meat would be eaten. The hide or fur, antlers and hooves if there were any, would all be put to use. Whether as clothing or for some other purpose. None of this sounds like a waste to me. Again, waste is not implicit in the word sacrifice. Please if you're going to react to a word at least understand what it entails first.

[Nantonos]

In my political science class we where talking abotu a court case dealing with Santarians(sp?) and animals sacrifice....it just made me think, what are the opinions of the people her on ritual animal sacrifice..

I say, if thats what your belifes calls for then so be it, i'm not to say. I just would like to think that any ritual killing is done as humanely and quickly as possible As for myself, i doubt i could ever bring myself to kill an animal purposly, no matter what i was doing

Same comments as the last time this was discussed (maybe an faq is called for)

How are you defining sacrifice? (from your comments you seem to assume killing; others assume collecting blood, some assume pain, some assume the animal is eaten, some assume it is not, etc). So, if you want to collect useful results, please define your terms.

Also (again from last time) it was established that (taking sacrifice as killing an animal for eating, with some sort of religious ceremony) Jews and Moslems do animal sacrifice today, but Pagans largely do not; taking the original meaning of sacrifice (to make sacred), it was established that Christians do too (saying grace before eating, baptising converts or children). Burning incense on an altar is sacrifice.

[Nantonos]

I'm not saying that I've become an overnight vegetarian- I don't even know if that could be possible. Just that, well, maybe I'll have a little more respect for the chicken that I bite into next time!

hm...

Perhaps even giving thanks for the animal before eating it, rather like Christians say grace before a meal. Which makes it sacred and is, thus, sacrifice (from Latin sacer, to make sacred).

[StormVixen]

i have killed rabbits with miximatosis (as in i have killed rabbits who have got mixi!). but i could never do it as a ritual thing only as a nessesary thing, but im not a veggie tho, i support foxhunting (dunno why!), so i guess in not against ritual animal sacrefice as long as its done as painlessly as possable.

[Tigerlily]

I think killing animals is very wrong and it should not be done.

[Grey]

I think killing animals is very wrong and it should not be done.
Thats fair enough... now tell me why you feel this way, because personally, I disagree for reasons already stated. Give us your thoughts so we can discuss this a bit more.

[Maverynthia]

I only support ritual sacrifice of animals if the animal is going to be used for food and clothing. Let's not also forget to point out that Jews and Early Christians sacrificed animals too.

[Nantonos]

I only support ritual sacrifice of animals if the animal is going to be used for food and clothing. Let's not also forget to point out that Jews and Early Christians sacrificed animals too.

... and still do. So do Muslims.

[mothwench]

i voted it's part of my beliefs. in the sense that i would sacrifice an animal that i was going to eat with others at a major harvest festival, or similar.


edited to add: what are all the animal sacrifice threads doing in "magical creatures and familiars"? :lol:

[Rayzer]

I'm a vegetarian, so now way no how could I justify killing anything for religion! In my opinion, they are your beliefs why force/enforce them on another being, be they human or non-human.
Well put. I might do a vegetable sacrifice. I could sacrifice a salad?

[Shadow Dreamer]

What you don't get is that pagans *started* animal sacrifices, wearing fur, etc. I still don't support it.

I haven't yet read the thread to completion, but keep this in mind, one of the older religions, Hebrew to be exact, has had ritual sacrifice for longer than paganism has been recognised as a form of religion. Their "kosher" preparation of meat is the slaughter of an animal as an offering to their God, and predates the romans. For a township, city, or region to ban it, then they need to ban it for ALL forms, to include the Hebrew kosher ritual for slaughter, no?

*edit* I see that others have already pointed out that the Jews and Muslims still propogate ritual sacrifice today...what wasn't as yet pointed out: In the Hebrew Kosher ritual, if the presiding Rabbi decides that the sacrifice was not carried out properly, or the animal moved, or for whatever reason he decides that the sacrifice was not kosher, the carcass is discarded and not used....interesting, no?

[Nantonos]

*edit* I see that others have already pointed out that the Jews and Muslims still propogate ritual sacrifice today...what wasn't as yet pointed out: In the Hebrew Kosher ritual, if the presiding Rabbi decides that the sacrifice was not carried out properly, or the animal moved, or for whatever reason he decides that the sacrifice was not kosher, the carcass is discarded and not used....interesting, no?

Same as the Roman animal sacrifice; if its not correctly carried out it is repeated.

[Cacaoatl]

well, I do eat meat, but I also voted against animal sacrifice. I just can't get into backing that kind of religious belief.
Just a tad self righteous aren't you? So it's ok to eat animals but no ok to sacrifice them? Who are you to judge religions that existed before you were born and will exist after you die? Those religions that pactrice animal sacrifice will continue do so regardless of whether some goody -two shoes approves of it or not. It is the height of arrogance to think otherwise.

[Grey]

Of course just because something will exist a long time doesnt make it any more right than something that will be here a mere 20 years. Murder, rape, hunger... theyve existed for a very long time, doesnt make it right eh?

As for their point... alot of people put blood and animal and other kinds of sacrifice, indeed sometimes any kind of sacrifice, into an area of negative conotations and stereotypes. Look at it again... a sacrifice is anything you offer up for something else. Money is a sacrifice you make for gas, and work is the time and effort you sacrifice for money and so on and so forth.

Everything in the end involves sacrifice, why should religion be any different?

[Shanti]

For religious purpose no I wouldnt.

Why, because any religion that would want an animal sacrificed for its agenda is to selfish in my opinion so I wouldnt follow such a religion.

And asking for the blood of another to help whatever...thats bull to me. Can the animal openly tell you if it truely thinks the cause is just? No. So I dont think the religion has the right.

[Darkwater Stone]

Personally I wouldn't do it. I'm not a vegetarian or nothing, and I don't hold it against others who do, I just wouldn't be able to kill something myself, but to each his/her own.
Different paths call for different things!!
BB,

[enchancea]

I'd have to say no. But then again if an animal was being killed for meat and some was offered to your higher power then I dont see a problem with that but if its just being killed to be offered to your higher power then I dont think that is right. I know i could never do it, I cant even kill a bug.

[Nantonos]

It might be useful to read the earlier postings where a lot of good discussion covered many of the topics that people are posing as questions now. In particular, it might be useful to find out what animal sacrifice meant in the past, before commenting on it :rolleyes:

[Aidron]

I do not currentlyl, nor have I ever performed animal sacrifices. However, I would not be opposed to doing so. I live in what I suppose is a rural suburbs ([smirks] Is that even possible?) and while there are actual horses and cows nearby fenced in in large fields... the closest I come to animals on a daily basis are our pets.

Since I do not live on a farm and there is a grocery store nearby, I have no need to kill or hunt for my survival. Nor am I ever in the position where I might need to kill an animal... or in fact, in a position to kill one even if I wanted to. It is simply not part of this area's design. [shrugs]

If I did, however, I would not be opposed to it. If I raised my own animals for food I would sacrifice them in the name of my gods. Doing so would serve a threefold purpose for me, however. One would be to offer a bit of what I have to those I care for (i.e. my gods). Secondly, it would be to ensure a swift and gracious death for the animal, as well as to honor its sacrifice for my survival. Third, it would be to bless the meat so that those who consume it would receive the greatest of benefits (nutrition in most cases).

In cases where animals might be in agony and should be put down, if I were required to do it, even if it was my own pet, I would haven no problems doing so in the name of my gods, to ensure that the animal, whether beloved or not, receives a swift and merciful death to end its suffering, among other things.

However, not all of these are inherently linked to animal sacrifice, some of these ideas area bit more modern in approach to the procedure. But, since I'm not likely to ever own a farm or become an animal executioner, I don't have much to worry about. [shrugs]

[brymble]

i'm a lacto-ove vegetarian, but not for the "standard" reasons. (and i'm not getting into my reasons here and now.) i'm not going to lecture anyone about the wrongness of taking an animal's life, because i've studied enough botany to know that when it comes down to the question of life, you really can't separate human, animal, and plant life. it is all life, life is everywhere around us and fills the world, life is the world. the ending of life, and the following decay and returning of nutrients to the precious soil is vital to life; it is part of the life process. thus, even death is also life. that crisp fresh lettuce in the salad i had for lunch was still very much alive when i smothered it in tofu-based dressing and ate it. because i eat, i am alive to type this.

what most vegetarians and other people really object to when they argue against taking an animal's life, doesn't really have to do with life so much as with consciousness. i think that that is the issue that really comes into play when the question is sacrifice: not the animal's life, but its consciousness. this is different from its spirit or its soul, but i'll get to that in a minute.

in the wild, animals hunt and kill each other, and that includes the human animal. hunting is a very concious act, for both the hunter and the prey. in the struggle of life and death, consciousness is heightened, probably to its most intense extreme. hunter and prey become one, so that one body can consume the other. it is a sacrament, an act of primal grace. the omnivores on this board who object to the killing of animals for anything other than food, who do not hunt or slaughter themselves, might consider the conditions that occur within most slaughter-houses: animals diseased and drugged, the workers who do the killing jaded and numb, just doing their job. consciousness is minimized here, for animal and killer alike, desecrated.

i am a vegetarian who supports religious animal sacrifice, although obviously i don't do it myself. in fact, i think, especially for food, the killing of any animal should be a sacrificial act, done consciously and open to the divine.

The belief behind the practice is that by using the animals' life in a sacred ritual you make the animals' spirit sacred and it evolves to a higher spiritual plane.


semi, (forgetting whether you already know this about me) i describe myself as a gaian/pantheist witch. as such, i am of the belief that the animals spirit, and even its body, is already sacred. when you speak of "using" an animals "life" in a sacred context, are you referring to its life, or its consciousness, or both? how do you define "spirit", and "sacred"? how does the priest make the spirit sacred through sacrifice? forgive my naivety, but would not its spirit already be sacred, by virtue of being spirit? what is its relationship to the life/consciousness/spirit of the one doing the killing, and how does that relationship figure into the spiritual evolution of the animal, through the process of sacrifice? please help me to understand what is happening in this process.



I also think about sacrificing plants. That's still a life. Perhaps composting... **contemplates**

i just finished reading starhawk's earth path. i really dig (pardon pun) the idea of composting as an act of sacrifice! i still know only very little of permaculture, in fact, starhawk's books were pretty much my introduction to it, but i can't think of a better, more meaningful act in regards to my own practice to harmonize with the whole cycle of life/death/life. it's a shame i don't have a yard to garden in, or even a kitchen to produce table scraps at the moment, but hopefully someday soon...

the idea of sacrificing plants and composting as a sacrificial act calls into question again the definition of sacrifce. in this context, it appears to be used to mean an offering, the surrendering of something valuable as an act of devotion. many take this to mean something given up, a small hardship or inconvenience to show the deity they are willing to suffer personal loss in honor of greater service. but of course starhawk is looking at it from the point of view of something that is actually valuable to the earth/goddess herself, ot necessarily a hardship on our part. in the mythology of some religions (christianity for example) the sacrifice occurs in order to displace divine punishment, or even as the punishment itself (artemis and iphigenia). in other mythologies sacrifice represents the death that is necessary in the cycle of life. sacrifice can also be seen as a display of faith, an act of magic or prayer, a surrender to a higher power, or the tanscendence of suffering in order to achieve wisdom (odin/hanged man of the tarot). what does sacrifice mean to you?

(i totally pounced on this thread & asked all these questions about sacredness & sacrifice because it relates to a sculpture i'm working on.)

[semi]

Brymble, I agree, animals are sacred. My words in the quote are about the practice of animal sacrifice, not my personal practice. I have never and will never use an animal in sacrifice. And I haven't eaten any for many years now.

The traditional view in practices that I'm familiar with is that by killing an animal in a sacred ceremony, you make the animal sacred and exalt the animal's spirit to a higher plane and the animal will be reborn in some form with a a higher level of consciousness.

I believe that the animal is already sacred and already attuned to, if not a higher consciousness, a more pure consciousness. Part of the reason for my online name here is that I want to revert back to a pure animal state. I want to devolve, in a way. I want to push my human consciousness so far that I achieve an animal-like purity. I don't think killing an animal will help me get there. I would kill them and eat them for survival, but I don't have to (no one does, actually), so I don't.

Animal sacrifice is sometimes called "a lifeforce offering." This is a misnomer. Killing something creates a death energy. So if someone wants to offer life force energy to a deity, killing an animal is not the way to do it. I don't understand how people can think it's good, sacred, exalted thing to extinguish a being's life on the altar of a deity. Unless it's a deity of death, it seems like it would be more of an insult than a gift.

[Sequoia]

I have an insatiable hunger for sacrifice. Sometimes I can only go for a few hours at a time before I do so again.









I sacrifice yeast daily. Acidopholus too. And god knows how many sugar canes I have killed. But I will continue to kill. I must. It is my nature. For I... am... HUMAN-MAN...woman... thing that eats stuff.

(But as for sacrificing Blackie the Cat... no thanks. Not unless you plan on eating her. In which case- please chose an animal less cute and more tastey, like a bunny. The fur is softer, too.)

[Grey]

I have an insatiable hunger for sacrifice. Sometimes I can only go for a few hours at a time before I do so again.









I sacrifice yeast daily. Acidopholus too. And god knows how many sugar canes I have killed. But I will continue to kill. I must. It is my nature. For I... am... HUMAN-MAN...woman... thing that eats stuff.

(But as for sacrificing Blackie the Cat... no thanks. Not unless you plan on eating her. In which case- please chose an animal less cute and more tastey, like a bunny. The fur is softer, too.)


*applause*....

[semi]

I agree with Sequoia. To live is to kill. That's an undeniable fact. I just try to choose what I kill, so I'm a vegetarian. But I'm still annoyed by vegetarians who don't understand that all animals here, including humans, are part of a food chain. Lots of animals are here to be eaten. That is why many or most of them are here. Choosing to not eat them is great. Choosing to eat them is fine, too. Everything has to die. Otherwise, nothing could live.

So I am not against people killing and eating animals, just against the practice of animal sacrifice in ritual because it isn't neccessary. If you want to kill and eat something, great, do that. But if you want to perform a ritual, use your own energy, life energy, not the death energy of an animal. If you can't get the ritual to work without the energy boost of a dying animal, then you probably shouldn't do the ritual and should probably work on your spiritual developement until you can make the ritual work using your own energy. Animal use in ritual is like an other tool used in ritual: none of them are actually neccessary.

And Sequoia, cats taste like chicken. I used to looooove barbequed chicken smothered in sauce. After I quit eating meat I used to dream about barbequed chicken. So good. So tasty. Here kittie, kittie, kittie......

[Sequoia]

And Sequoia, cats taste like chicken. I used to looooove barbequed chicken smothered in sauce. After I quit eating meat I used to dream about barbequed chicken. So good. So tasty. Here kittie, kittie, kittie......
Semi, when did you eat cats? lmao Everything tastes like chicken. Hey... aren't there some pretty decent chicken-substitutes? Perhaps smother a hunk of tofu in barbeque sauce?

I could probably handle not eating meat, but man, I <3 fish and poultry. There was this week where I ate like... almost nothing but chicken, because I craved it so bad. Weird. :lol:

[semi]

There is this non-meat chicken made by a company called Quorn. It's amazing. You can't tell that it's not chicken. I have had devout meat-eaters try it and they thought it was real chicken. I like the non-breaded bits for stir-frying. It's texture is just like chicken, it's juicy just like chicken, it tastes just like chicken. I highly recommend it. And if you cook it just right, it tastes like kittie.

[Sequoia]

There is this non-meat chicken made by a company called Quorn. It's amazing. You can't tell that it's not chicken. I have had devout meat-eaters try it and they thought it was real chicken. I like the non-breaded bits for stir-frying. It's texture is just like chicken, it's juicy just like chicken, it tastes just like chicken. I highly recommend it. And if you cook it just right, it tastes like kittie.
:hehehehe: _pounce_

[brymble]

semi, have you been to skippy's on south avenue? they have a quorn sandwich with cranberry sauce and dipping gravy that is so-o-o-o-o-o good! i miss skippy's. guess i'll just have to settle for going to the moosewood for now.

the only issue i have with quorn is i think it contains hydrolized vegetable protein, which is one of the "disguises" for MSG.

[Seshata]

Don't know whether this has been said later on, but I'm reading through this thread...

I personally don't have any problem with sacrificing an animal - I would be sharing it with deity.

I understood it to be something that was inspired by antiquity - if you look at ancient religions, many that did animal sacrifice and had food as offerings, did share the food through the community - ok there was a hierarchy within that but still all the animal was used and none wasted. That is how I'm looking at it. I was also taught how to kill an animal quickly.

I think that the choice is within each person and judgement possibly comes in whether there is cruelty eg a non-quick killling of the animal and mistreating it prior to killing it.

BB

Seshata

[YemojaRain]

The animals that are offered to Orisha in the "Santeria/Ifa" tradition,are not sacrificed inhumanely. The priest are trained to kill the animal in the most humane way possible. The meat is then eaten by those who are participants of the sacrificial ceremony.The animal ,after it has been given to Orisha,is eaten becaue it contains "Ashe".I am a follower of Ifa and I have never attended a bembe/Orisha ceremony where I saw an animal treated humanely

[YemojaRain]

I have never seen an animal being treated inhumanely, is what I meant in my last post.

[EternalMaiden]

According to Wikipedia these were the reasons people gathered for a priest and sacrificed:
1.)Gods need sacrifice to sustain themselves and their power, without which they are diminished.
2.)Sacrificed goods are used to make a bargain with the god, who has promised some favour in return for the sacrifice.
3.)The lives or blood of sacrificial victims contains mana or some other supernatural power whose offering pleases the god.
4.)The sacrificial victim is offered as a scapegoat, a target for the wrath of a god, which otherwise would be visited on the followers.
5.)Sacrifice deprives the followers of food and other useful commodities, and as such constitutes an ascetic discipline.
6.)Sacrificed goods actually become part of a religious organisation's revenue; it is a part of the economic base of support that compensates priests and supports temples.
7.)The sacrifice is actually a part of a festival and is ultimately consumed by the followers themselves; often this includes an element of redistribution where the poor get a larger share than they contributed.
8.)The sacrifice may be a sign of a covenant between a god and His people.

Jesus was against animal sacrifice, and again a mideival guy was very vocal about lingering misconceptions and called these rituals 'outdated'. Even still, most agree the psychological implications do more of the magic than the sacrifice itself. If you're heart and belief isn't in it, don't do it.

I voted I wouldn't, but I'm not against anyone else's traditions. I do hope that with time it becomes a thing of yesterday, traditions -are- traditions. And I see animals as vulnerable to my wrath, so I have compassion and learn from them as best I can. As I'd expect any God to do for me.